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Don Lemon Tonight
GOP Tries to Block January 6 Commission; Police Officers Confront Lawmakers on House Floor; Rep. Jamie Raskin (D-MD) Was Interviewed About the Chance of Passing the January 6 Commission; Michigan Secretary of State Warn Democrats of the 2024 Elections; Ret. Army Colonel Douglas Macgregor Spreading Conspiracy Theory. Aired 10- 11p ET
Aired May 27, 2021 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Memorial Day and honoring the sacrifice of those who died. Why? Why do they die? Because it was their job, because they were young, because they went in, because they were believed, because they were patriots. There are a lot of reasons.
But at the end of the day, the sacrifice was a function of them finding in themselves the desire for the rest of us to do things better. And I think a big way to do that is to try and take the opportunity and talk to someone that you have a problem with or you don't agree with, not about them. See if we can use the sacrifice of others to give us a chance to do things better there and actually do it.
Thank you for watching. D. Lemon Tonight starts right now.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: You already changed the name of my show.
CUOMO: Well at least I got it close to right. Better than you.
LEMON: I sat for -- I think it's seven years or longer I've been saying CNN Tonight. But, you know, it's bound to change. If I can just -- I don't disagree with you, so don't take this the wrong way.
CUOMO: How can you disagree?
LEMON: No, I'm not disagreeing.
CUOMO: OK. Good.
LEMON: No, I'm just going to add to what you said.
CUOMO: Please.
LEMON: You said talk to someone. I think they should do what you and I do and that's talk with someone. Right? Because when you talk with someone, that means you're doing a whole lot of listening as well, and you're learning. I know we're saying it's -- we're saying the same thing, but I think we need to talk with each other, not at each other, right, not about each other. I think we need to be in relationships with people who don't look like
us, who have nothing in common with us, who don't share the same religion with us. And quite frankly, you know, and I tell you about it all the time. I don't pay attention to social media. I know people are out there, and they're like, you know, they're just -- a story would be that someone said or did something controversial, and social media didn't blow up or have a hissy fit. Now, that would be a breaking news story. So, whenever I see reporters or reports about, my gosh, Twitter went into a tizzy about somebody, I'm like, OK, well, that's what Twitter is about.
CUOMO: Well, look, you know, there's a cheap aspect to the media. People are lazy, and it's easy because there's a proxy for insight on that. You know, they can take 50 people or 500 people or 5,000 people on Twitter and make it sound as though there's a national movement. But I do think a big part of the division and a big part of the disconnect in how we're being really manipulated by the fringe in this country right now.
LEMON: Yes. You're right.
CUOMO: Is because of this difference in the prepositional understanding of dealing with human beings.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: Where if you're talking about somebody, it's very easy to be negative. It's very easy to be pejorative. If you're talking to or with, as you say, it's a different situation.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: And there is no hope for the way we are right now.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: You're seeing it tonight in real time.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: They won't even study how people came to attack them.
LEMON: Yes, which is very important. Listen, you and I have these conversations, and they get very intense, and they should be. That's how -- that's how people talk to each other. That's how family talks to each other.
Last night John Kasich and I -- I love John. He's great. But we have -- we have very tough conversations sometimes, and I think you should treat people who you are in friendship with or a family member with, you should have those conversations the way that you have at a dinner table, at a barbecue, at a picnic, whatever, then you say, man, you are crazy. Now give me that rib. You
know what I'm saying? Instead of like, every -- not everybody -- look, you should be respectful, but there's no -- you don't have to polite and like tiptoe around things. I say, Chris, wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
CUOMO: It just helps you find that -- help you find that connective tissue.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: You know, there's a stat that really bothers me. Seventy percent of the American people agree on the main priorities. Well, then why the hell are we so divided? A little bit of that is the fridgification (Ph0. A little bit of that is, you know, in the media.
LEMON: It's by design.
CUOMO: Playing to the salacious.
LEMON: It's by design.
CUOMO: But it's also because people, social media, you're not around. You're not confrontation with. You're not dealing with directly. So, don't have that moment that, you know, I'll have where someone is like, you know, why do you want to take away my Second Amendment right? I'm like, I don't know. I'm a gun owner. And they're like, what do you mean you're a gun owner? I'm like, I'm a gun owner.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: What are you talking about? Why do you own the gun? I said to shoot somebody if they try to hurt me or mine. I don't even hunt. You know, so, well, and then all of a sudden, they're like, I didn't know that. You never said. I say --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: It's like, what?
CUOMO: I said it all the time.
LEMON: Yes. Or with me. Why are you so anti-police? I'm like, no, I'm not anti-police. And then during the insurrection when I had Michael Fanone and Officer Dunn on, Harry Dunn, and they're like, when did you become pro-police? I've always been pro-police. I'm just -- I just want better policing. I want it all to be better. I just don't want people being harmed for no reason or the brutality. But I've always been pro-police.
Same thing with the Second Amendment. Look, I grew up in Louisiana. Everybody I knew had a gun. My sister carried a gun and my aunt carried guns in their purses. I was like, my mom would say, don't go in her purse. I'm like, what. Just don't go. And then you'd look at it and you're like, I see why they don't me to go into. But I tell you one thing, though. Even with that when I was a kid, for Christmas, no guns.
CUOMO: You'll shoot your eye out.
[22:04:59] CUOMO: No. No, like, toy guns. Like cowboys and Indians, no. My mom got one for Christmas. My dad took it. Nope. Once when I put -- I grabbed the gun. I didn't realize. I was a kid, because my dad owned businesses, and I grabbed a gun. And my dad -- talk about knocking you into like to the moon.
CUOMO: Well, that's scary.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: That's scary for an adult to see that with their kid.
LEMON: But I grew up with guns everywhere. You're anti- -- no, I'm not. I'm just -- I'm afraid.
CUOMO: Look, it's because we're just -- there's too much about and not about to -- not enough to or with. And I just think especially on Memorial Day --
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: -- it's such a confusing one. Everybody says happy Memorial Day. I was talking about with my Patrick, one of my producers today, well, what am I supposed to say? Have a good one? What's good about remembering the dead?
So, you know, that's why this started off by just putting poppies on graves after World War I. Obviously it started after the Civil War, but Decoration Day, putting poppies --
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: -- because poppies can grow anywhere. And that's the point. We can get to a better place because good intentions and progress can come from anywhere.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: You just have to want it, and that is honoring the sacrifice. Doing what you can to make it better.
LEMON: Yes. And I tell you what we can do to make it better now is get out, enjoy the progress that we've made with the vaccine, see our loved ones, respect if people have issues with masks. Respect them but also believe in the science. You don't have to wear the mask if you're outside. Get out and enjoy your family. I'm going to see you. I'll enjoy -- if the weather holds up. Fingers crossed. We get to hang out.
CUOMO: I'll see you anyway.
LEMON: I know, and then I'll have to be inside with you, which is really an issue. So, I love you. I can't wait to see you this weekend. I can't wait to -- I'm going to have a summer like I was a 12-year- old. I've made that pledge.
CUOMO: Good. LEMON: Knock wood.
CUOMO: Live your life.
LEMON: Barefoot and everything.
CUOMO: Live your life.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Eat whatever I want. Do whatever I want.
CUOMO: You only get one chance. I wish everybody watching your show --
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: -- your allegiant fans that they make good memories this Memorial Day weekend.
LEMON: Amen. Amen.
CUOMO: I love you, D. Lemon. I'll see you soon.
LEMON: I love you as well.
This is Don Lemon Tonight. Thanks for watching, everyone.
We have some breaking news to tell you about because we're going to take you live to the capitol right now. And that's where the vote America has been waiting for -- is coming now at any moment. We'll get you live pictures there in just a bit. The vote on the commission. There it is. Live pictures of the capitol. The vote on the commission tasked with telling the truth of what happened right there at the capitol on January 6th where apparently a dark cloud of amnesia generated by willful ignorance and cowardice has descended on the Senate.
Maybe we should remind them. Maybe we should remind them this is what that day was like. That's what it was like. The day we'll never forget. The day we all watched in horror as violent rioters ran wild at the United States Capitol, the seat of our democracy, hunting lawmakers, fighting police officers, trying to stop the certification of the vote for Joe Biden.
And then tonight at that same capitol, it seems like Republicans are going to show us in no uncertain terms that they lack the guts to do what is right. They're going to kill that January 6th commission before it has even begun.
Live pictures now of the Senate floor. The Senate majority whip, Dick Durbin, says that the vote will happen tonight. But as it gets later and later, you got to wonder whether Republicans are hoping to hide their cowardice under the cover of darkness.
Last night I asked a question. OK. That question was, are -- are there 10 Republican senators who will defend democracy? Are there 10 Republican senators who will defend democracy? I said that I thought I knew the answer, but I hope that I was wrong.
Well, you would think that the grieving mother of Officer Brian Sicknick going to the capitol to speak to Republican senators face-to- face, you would think that would matter. The same people he lost his life defending, and even faced with a mother who has lost so much, they still can't step up and do the right thing for her and for the people they were elected to serve.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: This was to uphold the Constitution, and right now I don't think they're doing it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I can only imagine if that was my mother. Imagine if it was your mother, your brother, your son.
Sources telling CNN those meetings were very hard for Mrs. Sicknick. She reportedly asked how they cannot do the right thing. Capitol Hill Police Officer Harry Dunn, D.C. Metropolitan Police Officer Michael Fanone went to the Hill with Mrs. Sicknick today, meeting with senators including Ron Johnson.
Ron Johnson, who over and over has tried to sell the lie that what happened on January 6th was a peaceful protest. There's your peaceful protest right there. There it is. That's -- wow. I'd hate to see what a non-peaceful protest looks like.
[22:10:02]
Officer Fanone has told me over and over that he is not political. He just wants the truth of that day to come out, but they don't want to hear the truth. Well, today sources say that he let Ron Johnson have it, and I've come to know Michael Fanone. I can imagine just what that was like, and I'm sorry for his experience today.
I'm sure he believed, as a law enforcement officer and a decent, honest man, that if he just talked to them, got face to face with them, told them the truth of that day, that they would understand and that they would listen.
And now he's learned what everyone must understand. They have no conscience. They don't want to know the truth. Truth-tellers are an inconvenience to them. Truth-tellers are just people who make it harder for them to ignore their oaths to preserve and protect the Constitution and the responsibilities of their jobs. And yet they find a way because they care about nothing beyond their own prospects for power and protecting the former guy.
Think about this. These Republican senators could all have been killed. That's the reality. And what would they want? What would they want if that had happened? Would they have wanted their loved ones to stick with Trump even then? We're never again going to ask what it would take for Republicans to break from Trump. Clearly there is no bottom for them. There is nothing to do -- this is
nothing that they -- there is nothing, I should, say, that they won't do, nothing they won't do. And Republicans -- and Democrats, I should say, anger is real tonight, and it should be. They should be angry.
The deal for this commission was bipartisanship. It was supposed to be bipartisan. It included everything Republicans asked for. Everything. Thirty-five House Republicans voted for it. Democrat Joe Manchin, angry today but not angry enough to blow up the filibuster.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D-WV): There was a lot of negotiations and the leadership of the Democrats on both the House and the Senate have agreed to the recommendations that were made to make the adjustments. There's no excuse for a Republican not to vote for this unless they don't want to hear the truth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: If Republicans can't even stand up for the truth in the face of one of the darkest days in American history, if they're still trying to bury the truth about the insurrection we all saw with our own eyes, and heard with our own ears --
If they are still trying to bury the truth, even after those rioters hunted for them in the halls of Congress, well, that tells you exactly what you need to know. They're too afraid of a former president who has been out of office for more than four months.
That is why Mitch McConnell went so far as to beg senators to filibuster the bill as a personal favor to him, Mitch McConnell, who knows exactly what happened on January 6th and who knows exactly who is responsible. He knows. He told us so after he voted to acquit the former president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), MINORITY LEADER: There's no question, none, that President Trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of the day. No question about it. The people who stormed this building believed they were acting on the wishes and instructions of their president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Mitch McConnell doesn't care about the truth. All he cares about is 2022 -- well, actually, I take that back. All he cares about is 2024 and winning back the White House, and he's willing to do anything. He's willing to say anything to achieve those goals. He told us that too.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRET BAIER, ANCHOR, FOX NEWS: If the president was the party's nominee, would you support him? MCCONNELL: The nominee of the party? Absolutely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And then there is onetime House Speaker Paul Ryan, criticizing the former president tonight and his death grip on the Republican Party. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL RYAN, FORMER UNITED STATES SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Once again, we conservatives find ourselves at a crossroads. And here's the reality that we have to face. If the conservative cause depends on the populist appeal of one personality or of second-rate imitations, then we're not going anywhere.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. Where was that when former speaker -- I didn't see the tweet -- Ryan was in power? Remember, he never saw Trump's tweets whenever you asked him about it. I didn't see the tweet. That's why I called him the former speaker -- I didn't see the tweet -- speaker.
[22:15:02]
Now the former speaker I didn't see the tweet, Paul Ryan, is on the board of Fox Corporation, you know, the parent company of the Fox propaganda network, the home of exactly the kind of cultural battles he is complaining about tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RYAN: As the left gets more woke, the rest of America is getting weary. This stuff is exhausting, and we conservatives have got to be careful not to get caught up in every little cultural battle. Sometimes these skirmishes are just creations of outraged peddlers detached from reality and not worth anybody's time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Outraged peddlers, huh? Then speaking of that, woke, when he calls woke. Republicans are doing all the canceling right now. Ask Liz Cheney. Outraged peddlers, huh? Who exactly is it who peddles that outrage? The GOP and their absurd culture wars.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: First they outlawed Dr. Seuss, and now they want to tell us what to say.
I am Sam. I am Sam. Sam, I am. That Sam I am, that Sam, I am. I do not like that Sam, I am. Do you like green eggs and ham? I do not like them, Sam I am. I do not like green eggs and ham.
REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): Look out, Mr. Potato Head. You're next. REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): First it was Kermit the Frog and The Muppets,
Mr. Potato Head, then now, you know, Dr. Seuss. I have said I think this is the biggest threat to freedom we face.
ERIC TRUMP, DONALD TRUMP'S SON: They canceled Mr. Potato head.
UNKNOWN: That's right.
TRUMP, JR.: You know, this week alone they canceled "The Muppets." You know, they're canceling Dr. Seuss from reading programs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: My gosh. They're canceling Liz Cheney. These people, come on. Paul McCarthy -- Paul McCarthy - -I'm sorry. Kevin McCarthy -- sorry, Paul. Kevin McCarthy, come on. Really? There's a thing in there. Kevin McCarthy. What's Joe Biden's favorite word. Full of malarkey. And as Paul Ryan speaks out for his vision of the GOP, the Trump wing of the party is on full display tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GAETZ: This is Donald Trump's party, and I'm a Donald Trump Republican.
We're not going back to the days of the Bushes and the McCains and the Romneys. Our way, America first, is the way forward for America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And that is the face of the GOP. Gaetz and the QAnon congresswoman.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): We've got to clear something up. Who won the presidential race on November 3rd for Georgia?
CROWD: Trump! Trump! Trump!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Let's answer that question for her. Joe Biden. It's settled. But that's what Joe Biden is faced with tonight, a Republican Party in thrall of the former president. A Republican Party letting Matt Gaetz and Marjorie Taylor Greene speak for them. I a Republican Party too scared to stand up for the truth of what happened on January 6th even though it could have killed them. President Biden saying this today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I can't imagine anyone voting against the establishment of a commission on the greatest assault since the Civil War on the capitol.
(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON: Tonight, we'll find out whether 10 Republicans have the guts to
do what's right because we've got the latest on the vote expected at any minute tonight. The vote on the commission charged with finding the truth of what happened on one of the darkest days in American history.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R-ME): We owe it to the brave men and women who defended our lives that day and, in some cases, did so at the cost of their lives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: So, we have the breaking news tonight. We're standing by for that Senate vote tonight on the commission to investigate the capitol insurrection on January, the one that happened on January 6th. GOP all but certain to block it. Senator Lisa Murkowski, one of the handful of Republicans who is backing the commission, has a message for her colleagues like the leader McConnell, who worry that talking about the January 6th insurrection will hurt their chances in 2022.
She says in part, to be making a decision for the short-term political gain at the expense of understanding and acknowledging what was in front of us on January 6th, I think we need to look at that critically. Lisa Murkowski saying that.
Joining me now to discuss, Democratic Congressman Jamie Raskin of Maryland. He was the lead impeachment manager during Trump's second impeachment trial.
Congressman, thank you. I really appreciate you joining us this evening. I know it's a very busy time for you. So, it seems that the vast majority --
(CROSSTALK)
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): It's good to be with you, Don.
LEMON: Yes. Thank you. It seems like the -- sorry. We do have a delay, so let's acknowledge that and be cognizant of it, Congressman. You know, it seems that the vast majority of Republican senators will vote against this commission. Some looked into the eyes of a grieving mother today, who lost her son, and officers who fought back that mob, and they're still going to say no. What do you say to them tonight? Is this a new low?
RASKIN: Well, they've elevated what they think is in their best political interests over what is clearly in the best interest of the country, which is to determine the truth of those events and the cause of those events. But they are too eager to protect Donald Trump and the evidence of his attempted political coup against the government and against the election and too eager to protect the Proud Boys and the three percenters and the Oath Keepers in their insurrection against America.
[22:25:05]
And then they're too eager, I think, to protect the rioters themselves who were seduced by Donald Trump's invitation to come to Washington from the truth because those people will defect very quickly once we simply proclaim the truth, which is that the big lie is a lie, that Donald Trump did not win the election.
But these are people who were brought to Washington under the premise that the election was being stolen and they were going to go and stop the steal. So, it's hard to blame them in a weird way. But we need to get the truth out to those people, and Donald Trump should be an absolute pariah in America as well as everybody who has been enabling his anti-social and anti-Democratic conduct.
LEMON: And the fact that they can look in the eyes of a grieving mother and still vote the way that they are planning to vote. Gladys Sicknick is who I'm speaking of, the mother of the fallen capitol Police Officer Brian Sicknick. Also D.C. Metropolitan Michael Fanone, Capitol Police Officer Harry Dunn, they all tried to convince Republican senators to support this commission.
This is officer -- let's put this up -- Officer Fanone's body camera footage. This is from January 6 and I spoke with him just before the show. He said it was traumatic to relive the most devastating moment of his life over and over again but felt many senators simply just didn't care.
If these lawmakers can't stand up for the truth for the people who risk their lives protecting them, what can they stand for? What do they stand for?
RASKIN: Well, they're not interested in law enforcement. All of the capitol officers I've spoken to, including Officer Fanone, including Officer Harry Dunn, who is a constituent of mine, have been demanding that we do a commission to figure out how this happened and what security precautions need to be put in place. But also, we need to investigate violent white supremacy.
You know, domestic violent extremism, which is basically violent white supremacy, accounted for two-thirds of the terror incidents in America in 2020. I mean this is the single biggest terror threat to the American people and to our public security right now. And they are covering up for them as well as covering up for Donald Trump and the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers and so on.
LEMON: Not only were you --
(CROSSTALK)
RASKIN: And, you know, that's a scandal when it comes to -- I was just going to say, the law enforcement officers on Capitol Hill and the Metropolitan Police Department in D.C., who came to our rescue, if nothing else, if they don't care about the Constitution and the future of the republic, at least they owe it to the police officers who they claim to support. Otherwise, everybody will know that that's a total lie.
LEMON: Yes. I was going to say not only were you a witness to this insurrection, your daughter and your son-in-law were also on Capitol Hill on January 6th, locked in an office, sending what they thought were good-bye texts. This is what you said at the impeachment trial about your conversation with your daughter after the attack. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RASKIN: I told her how sorry I was, and I promised her that it would not be like this again the next time she came back to the capitol with me. And you know what she said? She said, dad, I don't want to come back to the capitol. Of all the terrible, brutal things I saw and I heard on that day and since then, that one hit me the hardest.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Listen, I hate to have you relive that because I know you were suffering a loss in your family, and there was a horrible, horrible time for you. Do you fear January 6th could happen again?
RASKIN: Well, it certainly will happen again. I mean, January 6th wasn't the first outbreak of this. Remember, there was a plot to kidnap and assassinate Michigan Governor Whitmer and a siege of the Michigan state capitol, which Donald Trump had been encouraging and other high-level Republicans had been encouraging.
There was -- there were the MAGA marches on Washington, which ended up in violence. And so, you know, part of what we showed at the impeachment trial, which ended up with a 57 to 43 vote to convict, was that January 6th was the culmination of a series of events. And if we don't intervene to stop it now, this will become the norm.
Political violence will be validated and normalized. That's what Donald Trump wants. I mean, he's someone who always likes to encourage chaos and violence wherever he goes, and then he wraps his political plans inside of it.
I mean, remember, there was a coup that was built into all of the riots and the violence in the insurrection. The coup was targeted at Mike Pence, to get him to reject the Electoral College votes coming from Arizona and Georgia and Pennsylvania. And they thought if all they -- the only thing they needed to do was to get Pence to repudiate those votes, kick it to a contingent election in the House, and Donald Trump would win because they controlled 27 of the state congressional delegations.
[22:30:07]
We don't vote one member/one vote under a contingent election under the 12th amendment. We vote one state/one vote. So, they were very close to conducting and perfecting that coup. Now, there were right-wing elements like the Proud Boys and the three
percenters who had an insurrection in mind, and they also were talking about violence against Pence and Nancy Pelosi and killing members of Congress. And then there were the people who were just brought in as rioters.
But you got to peel this like an onion to figure out what was really going on. And I'm in the process of trying to do that. I hope that we have a commission that can do it formally and publicly. And, remember, this commission we voted for in the House, Don, five Republicans, five Democrats, equal subpoena authority, right down the middle, just like the 9/11 commission, and they won't take yes for an answer. And that was exactly what Kevin McCarthy was asking for. Why? Because they don't want the truth, because they want this to become the norm in our politics.
LEMON: Yes. Yes, that's what Katko asked for and Nancy Pelosi gave it to him. Thank you, sir. I appreciate it. Enjoy your holiday weekend. I really appreciate you joining.
RASKIN: Thank you very much. It's wonderful to see you.
LEMON: Thank you.
He says American democracy is hanging by a thread, so who does he blame for it? I'm going to ask Paul Krugman, next.
[22:35:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: So, Republicans in the Senate all but certain to block a vote on the bill to establish a January 6th commission. The vote expected anytime now. We're going to have it for you just as soon as it happens.
But until then, let's talk. Let's have some discussion now. Paul Krugman joins me, the author of "Arguing With Zombies: Economics, Politics, and the Fight for a Better Future." Professor, thank you for joining. I appreciate it. It's good to see you.
PAUL KRUGMAN, COLUMNIST, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Good to be on.
LEMON: So, the January 6th commission on its way to defeat in the Senate. Republicans don't want an investigation into an attack that threatened their lives and our democracy. Is this a permanent black mark on our nation? What do you think?
KRUGMAN: Yes. I mean we're in very deep trouble, and I think it's important to understand the nature of the trouble. It's not -- obviously the extremists, the white supremacists, the people who would like to violently overthrow the government are scary, extremely scary. But we've always had people like that in this country. We had the John Bird society. We've had Joe McCarthy. We've had white supremacy as a political force has been around for decades. The difference is that we now have a Republican Party that will not
stand up to those people. The great majority of Republicans in Congress, both in the Senate and the House, know that Joe Biden legitimately won the presidency. They know that January 6th was an attempt at the violent overthrow of an electoral result, but they are cowards.
And the thing -- that's not because, you know, just somehow by some accident we have a cowardly Republican Party. It's the result of a 40- year degeneration of what that party is about. This is not the Republican Party of Dwight Eisenhower. It's not even the Republican Party of the Reagan years although some of what's happened now it started. This is a party that has really gone downhill, has become corrupt.
LEMON: Yes. I was looking at one of the quotes that you have here. You have this great piece in The New York Times talking about the danger our democracy is facing. You also point out the differences in the way the two major political parties are structured. You say the GOP is ideology based on the Democratic Party is a coalition of interest groups. I understand what you're saying.
KRUGMAN: Yes.
LEMON: Explain that more, though.
KRUGMAN: So, the Democrat Party is what we normally think of a political party as being. It's a group of people who don't agree. Interest groups, not all of them saints by any means, but different, you know, teachers unions, LGBTQ activists, all the people who have goals and politicians navigate between and try to satisfy the demands of these different groups and try to build a coalition.
The Republican Party is this monolithic thing. It's not even -- it's actually just a piece of something, a movement conservatism. All of us use the phrase the political scientists talk about it. It's a cohesive, centralized thing. It's held together or has been held together largely by billionaire money.
Let's be frank. It's a lot of the reasons that Republicans hold the positions they do is because there's money in it. And it has been for decades now the life of being a loyal Republican politician has been a pretty easy life. All you had to do was say some things that weren't true but they served the interests of certain people.
You probably had a nice gerrymandered seat. You didn't really have to worry about losing an election. And if you should happen to lose an election, there was a safety net. You know, the phrase we use is wingnut welfare. There would be a place waiting for you at a think tank, a speaking, you know, a gig on Fox News. It was all very safe, very comfortable.
All of a sudden, it's not so safe and comfortable because now we've had this -- the barbarians have moved in. But think of the kind of people who prospered in that party. They are not the kind of people who are going to show any kind of moral courage. They're not the kind of people who are going to take a stand on principle. These are apparatus.
I mean to name names, Kevin McCarthy is the invertebrate at all, but that's the kind of person who has flourished in the Republican Party and has then left that party completely vulnerable to forces that really want to tear down our democracy.
[22:40:09]
LEMON: Yes. Paul has a really interesting piece in The New York Times about the conversation we're having now. I would strongly urge all of you to read it.
Paul, our time is a little bit short tonight, but we appreciate you joining us. Have a great holiday weekend. Thank you so much.
KRUGMAN: Same to you. Take care.
LEMON: Thank you.
Prepare for 2024 now or risk losing everything. That's what my next guest is warning Democrats, so stay with us.
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LEMON: Top election officials in Arizona and Michigan are warning Democrats that democracy itself is at stake in the upcoming elections. Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson says it is time to start preparing for the 2024 elections now.
Secretary Benson joins me now. Thank you. Good to see you.
JOCELYN BENSON (D), MICHIGAN SECRETARY OF STATE: Good to see you, Don. Thanks for having me.
[22:44:59]
LEMON: So, you are -- for sure. You are issuing a dire warning about the upcoming election. So, talk to me about the danger. What's the biggest threat?
BENSON: That we don't learn from what we endured and successfully overcame in 2020. That there's no accountability. That we take our eye off the ball and allow those bad actors to continue to intensify their efforts to put pieces in place to undermine democracy.
So that when the next presidential election comes along, the same actors, the same bad forces that tried to undermine democracy in 2020 and were not successful in doing so despite very valiant effort, very challenging, even violent effort -- those forces will be back, but they will be better organized. They will be better funded. They will be more strategic, and they will be in more places of authority than they were in 2020.
And we will therefore be at higher risk of seeing them be successful and undermine our democracy and stand in the way of the vote being the determining factor of who wins an election. LEMON: OK. So, let's talk more about that because, you know, during
that -- as we've been talking about, as you've mentioned here, a few brave state officials stood up and kept our democracy going in 2020. You say election officials across the country are being replaced as you did.
So, what is the exact impact, then, on 2022, 2024? Is it that Republicans take over with minority rule? Is it trying to get the former guy back in the White House? Is it we want to make sure that we win at all costs? What is it?
BENSON: I think it's important to separate the political implications from the democracy implications because what we saw in 2020, regardless of which candidate won or lost, was an attack on democracy that was a response to, --
LEMON: Right.
BENSON: -- among other things, an increase in voter turnout, also historic levels of voter turnout in communities of color. And so, we can't -- and then the efforts that we've been talking about tonight in particular around the tragedy in the U.S. Capitol on January 6th, all of that was connected to an effort to actually intervene with the certification and the finalization of a fair and secure and highly accurate election.
So that effort is going to come back in 2024. And what's happening right now in 2021, which we should expect to only escalate in the months and years ahead, is an effort from those bad actors to prepare. So that next time around, they'll have more people in positions of authority.
And again be better organized and more strategic to be able to be successful at blocking democracy, at stopping the count of votes in states all across the country and interfering in the processes with an eye towards continuing to cause chaos and confusion, continue to sow seeds of doubt about the faith of our democracy, to cause people to disengage and not participate, and to also put rules in place that will allow for voter suppression or reduction of access to the vote and that will ultimately decrease turnout, particularly in communities of color across the country. That's what we're looking at. That's where we're headed.
LEMON: Yes. I was just going to say, that is, if I've ever seen a flashing red light or a horn or a warning siren, what you just said was it. We are seeing tonight how lawmakers, secretary, are trying to whitewash the insurrection to protect the former guy.
BENSON: Yes.
LEMON: Does that show that they'll do anything to win? It's part of what I asked in the last question, minority rule, whatever it takes. Does it show they'll do anything to win?
BENSON: I certainly think we've seen over the past seven months since the polls closed in November just how far people are willing to go to undermine democracy. And that should alarm us, but it also should ensure that we stay vigilant to protect democracy and not forget that we succeeded in protecting democracy in 2020. But we have not yet held those bad actors accountable.
That's exactly what's being debated right now in the U.S. Capitol building, right? That accountability that we have to have if we're going to finally move forward from those efforts into a more healthy and robust democracy.
Until we have that accountability and more truth-telling, we're not going to move forward, and we're just going to see an intensification of these bad actors doing things like they're doing in Arizona with the quote, unquote, "fraudit," passing laws across the country to make it harder for people to vote in states all over the country. And removing authority of (Inaudible) or replacing election administrators with people who will be more willing to bend to the whims of candidates and party officials instead of listening to the will of the voters.
LEMON: Thought we were going to lose your signal. We didn't. It all worked out. Thank you, Secretary Benson. I appreciate it. Enjoy your holiday weekend.
BENSON: You too, Don. Thank you.
LEMON: Donald Trump may be out of office, but his presidency has lasting consequences, like high-profile appointees who now use their power to -- take this -- spread a baseless and racist conspiracy.
[22:50:00]
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LEMON: Take this. A Trump appointee serving on West Point's advisory board is spreading the racist replacement conspiracy. In a local radio interview uncovered by CNN's KFile team, retired army Colonel Douglas Macgregor says the Biden administration's policy is to bring in non- white immigrants to outnumber White Americans of European ancestry into the U.S. Listen.
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DOUGLAS MACGREGOR, RETIRED U.S. ARMY: The idea is that they have to bring in as many non-Europeans as possible in order to outnumber the numbers of Americans of European ancestry who live in the United States. That's what it's all about. And I don't there's any point in questioning it. That is the policy.
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LEMON: OK, so the racist conspiracy which has been perpetuated on the Fox propaganda network and by some Republican lawmakers is not based in fact.
[22:55:03]
But that doesn't stop the colonel from saying it all in a -- it's all a grand plan.
(BEGIN VOICE CLIP)
MACGREGOR: And I think some of you must have seen the thousands of pregnant women coming up from Latin America so they can have their children here and then the child is immediately declared American citizens. And again, all of this is part of the grand plan. This is what Mr. Biden and his supporters want. They want another country. They don't want the United States.
(END VOICE CLIP)
LEMON: And there it is. And there it is. I don't really have to say anything, I can just go to break here. But let me just explain. Macgregor did not respond to CNN's request for comment. And a White House official tells CNN that his standing on the advisory board at the country's top military is under review.
Macgregor was previously nominated to be the Trump administration's ambassador to Germany. But his nomination failed to get a hearing after CNN reporting found other controversial remarks from his past. He said U.S. involvement in World War II was a disaster and falsely claimed there was no desire in this country to go to war with Nazi Germany.
Again, this is someone the former president thought should be adviser to Germany. Ambassador -- excuse me -- to Germany. So, there you go.
Our breaking news tonight, we are watching the Senate floor where there still late night and we're going to see what's happening. They're supposed to get that vote, it's expected on the commission to investigate the capitol insurrection. We're going to follow, so make sure you stay right where you are. We'll be right back.
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