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Don Lemon Tonight

President Biden Calls Efforts To Restrict Voting Rights An Unprecedented Assault On Our Democracy; Trump's Former Lawyer, Sidney Powell, Falsely Claims Trump Can Be Reinstated In Oval Office; Texas Dems Walk Out To Block Voting Restrictions; Interview With Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee (D-TX); Reparations Debate Flares On 100th Anniversary Of Tulsa Race Massacre; Former Trump Adviser Michael Flynn Seems To Suggest A Myanmar-Style Coup "Should Happen" In The United States. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired June 01, 2021 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST (on camera): President Biden slamming the efforts by Republican led states to restrict voting rights, calling it an assault on our democracy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This sacred right is under assault with incredible intensity like I have never seen, even though I got started as a public defender and civil rights lawyer. With an intensity and aggressiveness we have not seen in a long, long time. It is simply un-American. It is not however, sadly, unprecedented.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): The president announcing Vice President Kamala Harris will lead the Biden administration's push to protect voting rights across the country and acknowledging that it will be an uphill battle. Democrats in the Texas legislature walking out and derailing a Republican bill designed to suppress voting.

The GOP Governor is fighting mad. What is the Democrats next move? I'm going to ask the chairman of the state party who will join me in just a few minutes. You don't want to miss that.

But first I want to bring in CNN's White House correspondent John Harwood. And former Republican Congressman Denver Riggleman. Good evening gentlemen to both of you. John Harwood, President Biden calling the attack on voting rights an unprecedented assault on our democracy. He is putting Vice President Kamala Harris in charge of the White House efforts. You say this is an example of the shifting power dynamic in the country. Talk about that.

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Don, think about what happened today. Democratic president, elected on the strength of non-white votes in key states went to Oklahoma to recognize a racial massacre of African Americans in a way no previous president has done to propose steps to redress, to narrow the racial wealth gap today, which is massive. He also spoke out against the temps to curb voting rights and placed his vice president in charge of them.

All of those things are related because the Republican opposition that he faces is speaking for a segment of the white population today that doesn't want to talk about racial injustice against blacks, because they feel like they are suffering discrimination. That doesn't have any interest in narrowing the racial wealth gap, because they think that will come out of their pocket. And it is terrified of the fact that America is on the path to becoming a majority minority country.

They've already seen the Democrats have won the popular vote in seven of the last eight elections. And so their response to that is to try to make it harder for non-white Americans to vote and make it harder for certain key states to certify Democratic victories if Democrats actually win as they did in 2020.

This impulse existed in the Republican Party before Donald Trump came along, but he accelerated that because he became the champion of the most important segment of Republican voters by promising to turn back the clock on change. That is why his lies are now being used to propel these efforts to restrict voting that Joe Biden says he's going to fight today, but it is not at all clear that he can defeat them.

LEMON: Denver, Maggie Haberman is reporting that Trump is telling people he expects to be reinstated by August. And his former attorney, Sydney Powell, is you know, ridiculously arguing that it can happen, even though it is garbage. So, I mean, what is the point here? Just to rev up the base in the short term and then when that comes then they will go on to something else?

FMR. REP. DENVER RIGGLEMAN (R-VA): Yes. It's insane. I mean, let's be honest. It borders on something we've never seen before that they've been able to capture this conspiracy zeitgeist and ride these wave all the way to January 6th and even now seem that the danger is still here. It's a clear and present danger to the United States. We have insanity that's being weaponized and monetized you know across committee or even all the way up to Mar-a-Lago, in the save America pack.

But the issue is polling. I think what John is talking about, you know, if we look at the polling and the fund-raising and I know I, I know don, like, gee, Denver is going back to data again. But when you look at the polling and the fundraising, this is where they are at.

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I had someone say (inaudible) polling that they like, well, look, Denver, 35 percent of people are already supporting Trump. And I'm like, well look, man, what you got to look at is that 78 percent of Republicans do. They don't care about independents right now. They don't care about Democratic polling. They care about the 2022 primaries and how they are going to carry that through. So, this crazy that you see is the current era of conspiracy theories

that really started to (inaudible) ping-pong in December and now has carried all the way up to January 6th. And you are seeing this continuation, Don. I think people need to freaking pay attention to what is going on in some of these communities. It should be incredibly terrifying.

LEMON (on camera): There is also, Denver, there's also the former national security advisor, Michael Flynn. Openly saying that a coup should happen here in the U.S. Listen to this and then we'll talk.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: I want to know why what happened in Myanmar can't happen here.

MIKE FLYNN, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: No reason. I mean it should happen here. No reason. That's right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Alright. We should have known from Myanmar. But listen. Now he is, I mean, come on, now he is back tracking -- I mean, but this is lunacy. It's coming from a retired three-star general. How incredibly dangerous is that?

RIGGLEMAN: He is a former air force officer. It is shameful that somebody that wore the officer's uniform or any uniform for that matter would say something so patently ridiculous and unhinged. And I think at some point we have to say that maybe there's mental issues going on there.

And I had been misdirected before, Don. I know we've been pretty blunt on this show. But at some point we have to identify that these individuals are dangerous, right. And what they are saying can be really used for individuals to sort of radicalize themselves to do violence.

And we've already seen that, and I think -- there's a lot of people right now that's worried about this going kinetic. Right? Where you have individuals that are going to act on some of this ridiculousness and you see the backpedaling.

But Mike Flynn is insane, and I think at some point we are going to have be directed and that either he needs help or is doing it just for the grift and the money. So, when you look at the power and money portion of this, I think that is what it is about. I just can't imagine that somebody would believe this, but from what he is saying, I think that really he crossed the Rubicon into crazy town. I really do.

LEMON: Listen. There is that danger of what you said. But there is also the danger that Americans are buying in to that kind of thinking that goes just beyond the president is going to be in office again into that sort of bending their own reality, thinking things are true that are not. I am telling you, it trickles down in to society, beyond you know, January 6th, just into the way people react and react in their normal lives.

Some of it comes out in violence, others came out in to delusion about reality. So, I think there is something to be studied there. I have to go. I am going to talk to somebody else that I need to discuss these stories with. Thank you very much. I appreciate both of you.

RIGGLEMAN: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: I want to turn now to Texas where Republicans are pushing one of the most restrictive voter suppression laws. Joining me now is, Gilberto Hinojosa, chair of the Texas Democratic Party. I'm so happy that you're here. I really appreciate it. Thank you for joining. Important issues.

So, you led the Texas Democrats in a walk-out of the State House to block these voting restrictions. This is one of the most far-reaching voter suppression bills in the country. Tell us about the danger to your state. But this has nationwide repercussions -- ramifications.

GILBERTO HINOJOSA, CHAIR OF THE TEXAS DEMOCRATIC PARTY: Well, it wasn't me that led the House Democrats, it was the House Democrats that decided that they had enough of the sham legislative process that was going on Sunday night.

They had been given a 70-page bill after the conference committee reported it out without having any Democratic input into the bill. None of the members the conference committee that were Democrats were allowed to participate in the discussions and the putting together of this Frankenstein bill is what we call.

And then they laid it on the House. They, before there could be any debate, they restricted the debate by a vote of the Republicans in the House. And they were going to shove it down the throats of people in Texas. Our people tried to debate. They tried to argue that it is a racist bill, discriminatory against Mexican-American, African- Americans, Asian-Americans, people of color in general.

And they would not have any part of it. So, rather than participate in this abuse of the legislative process that the Republicans were engaged in, they walked out. They walked out spontaneously and they walked to an African-American church close by there in Austin, Texas and let the people know what was going on in the Texas legislature.

This is a most horrendous voter suppression bill in the United States today in a state where it is already the most difficult place in the country to vote today.

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And the Republican Party did it because of, not just the big lie that Mr. Trump has been propagating all over the country, but also because they understand that they cannot hold on to power as long as people of color beginning to vote.

We have 30 percent increase in voter turnout this last election. We went from almost 10 percentage point margin in the presidential election to five percentage points. This is happening every election cycle it gets to a point where the Republicans are losing control.

And the only way that they feel that they can hold on to control is not by good policies and good laws that help the families in the state of Texas but by preventing working people, people of color from going out to vote and it's shameful.

LEMON: I've got to ask you this, because Greg Abbott, the governor there saying he is going to call a special election. And then, he is, you know, threatening to put some of these issues back on the agenda for a special election. Do you have any concern there? Can you talk to me about that?

HINOJOSA: Well, it is a special session that he wants to call, because he didn't get what he wanted. He is really angry, because what he was going to do after this bill that he was sure was going to get pass, he was going to have a spike the ball tour in the state of Texas with his right-wing constituents.

In Texas, it is all about the Republican primary. And the Republican primary is controlled by Trumpists in the state. And they were advocating this big lie that there was fraud out there that allowed Trump to lose his election and allowed Biden to win this election.

And so, he was feeding these people the red meat that they needed, because he wants to get reelected as Governor. And he has a (inaudible) to the right, opponent that he is very afraid of. And so, when he did not get to have his tour because if bill did not get passed he angrily called for a special session.

He decided to freeze the pay of all the legislatures and ultimately he said that he was going to freeze - eliminate all funding for the Texas legislature. This is absurd. But this is how bizarre that this man is, who is the Governor of the state of Texas.

We know we are going to come up against the same obstacles that we came up just last time around. But Texas legislatures are ready to fight. They are not going to give up and they are not go to give in to these type of abuse of legislative authority and racist policies, by the Republican in this state, particularly the Governor of the state of Texas. And they are going to fight.

If Governor Abbott wants to start arresting elderly legislators who are in their 70s today because they are refusing to participate in this illegal process called legislation by Republicans, let them do that. Let them do that with a full cameras on this state troopers who are going to be arresting people who had been legislating and working in the legislature for 30, 40 years.

Let them try to prove to people in Texas that it's more important to do this than passed this racist bill for example that prevents souls to the polls from occurring on Sunday because they now are outlying any early voting on Sunday morning.

LEMON: And it also allows people, Republicans to be able to overturn the election if they don't like the outcome. Representative Hinojosa, thank you for your time. I appreciate you joining. Thank you so much. HINOJOSA: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Thank you.

Washington Post columnist Max Boot here now. Max, thank you. Let's talk about this. It's not just Texas. This is an assault on voting rights, it's happening all across the country. You say it's all part of a Republican plot to steal the 2024 election. Explain the plot please.

MAX BOOT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST, WASHINGTON POST COLUMNIST (ON CAMERA): Well, you have to put the data points together, Don. What you are seeing right now is this multi-pronged Republican offensive on American democracy and the ostensible justification for it is this nonexistent voter fraud. But of course, the real justification is they don't want to lose another election like they lost in 2020.

And right now, whether it's in Texas, or Florida, or Georgia, or other states, they are disenfranchising lots of Democratic voters, particularly minority voters. You also see advocates of the big lie running for Secretary of State post in states like Georgia and Arizona so that you will plot these Trump conspiracy mongers in charge of election security.

The ultimate payoff are going to be first in 2022, and then in 2024. In 2022, you're going to -- you know, the Party that is out of control in the White House usually picks up seats in a midterm election, and in the next midterm election, Republicans are using partisan gerrymandering, they are using voter suppression.

And so they are trying closer to a Republican Congressional majority, and that brings up what I call the nightmare scenario, Don for 2024, which is that you could have Republican majorities in both Houses of Congress.

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And imagine what happens if a Democrat wins a narrow victory like Biden won in 2020. Already in 2020, you saw a majority of Congressional Republicans refuse to certify electoral votes, so imagine if in 2024 they had the power to actually refuse to certify those votes, if they are in the majority, they don't certify those votes.

LEMON: That's what's happening.

BOOT: Yeah, the election to the House of Representatives and then elect the Republicans. So this would be like a coup d'etat.

LEMON: You called, you said, if that happens it would spell the end of American democracy, is that a real possibility, you believe?

BOOT: I mean, it sounds crazy, it sounds alarmist, I hope it is alarmist. But it's hard to say it is alarmist at this point, because you just had a mob attacked the Capitol, and Republicans don't care about that. They're not even going to investigate it, and you had a majority of Congressional Republicans voting to overturn the election results.

I really feel Don, and I fear that we've crossed the Rubicon here, on things that are once unthinkable are not so unthinkable anymore. And this to me it seems like this is what Republicans are building up to, is having the ability in the next presidential election, to simply toss out the votes and just ignore the will of the people, that's a real danger that we have to confront.

LEMON (on camera): Max, thank you very much I appreciate it. I've got to get to some breaking news. Breaking election -- I appreciate it, Max.

This is breaking election news tonight, CNN projects that Democratic State Representative Melanie Stansbury, will win the special election and represent New Mexico's first Congressional district.

That was a seat that was left vacant when the interior secretary Deb Holland joined the Biden administration. Stansbury did defeat Republican State Senator Mark Morris, her victory will give the narrow Democratic majority in the U.S. House a bit more breathing room.

So there you go. That's our breaking election news. Should there be reparations for survivors and descendants of the Tulsa race massacre? And what does President Biden think?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR, CHIEF OF STAFF VICE PRESIDENTIAL KAMALA HARRIS, SENIOR ADVISER, BIDEN CAMPAIGN: He also supports a study as we've said before into reparations, but believe that first and foremost, the task in front of us is not to root out -- is too root out systemic racism where it exists right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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LEMON: Questions at the White House about reparations from black Americans on the anniversary of the Tulsa massacre. 100 years ago a white mob obliterated the prosperous area known as black Wall Street in Tulsa Oklahoma, killing as many 300 people and destroying blocks of homes and businesses. President Joe Biden acknowledging the tragedy today and announcing steps to close the economic divide for black Americans, but not mentioning reparations.

Here with me now, Democratic Congresswoman from Texas, Sheila Jackson Lee. Congresswoman, good evening. Thanks for joining.

REP. SHEILA JACKSON LEE (D-TX): thank you for having me.

LEMON: Reparations are, you know it is a polarizing topic. I don't have to tell you, but you say the way or maybe one way to heal the country is to pay reparations to the descendants of the Tulsa massacre. Why is that Congresswoman? JACKSON LEE: Well, first of all, maybe the word repair and amend would

be a more palpable word for so many non-black Americans. Because I can tell you, reparations as relates to the descendants of enslaved Africans is a welcomed term, in fact a healing term.

And I do believe that the president is a racial equity president. And I applaud him for that. The proclamation he issued today to highlight the first president in the history of the United States ever to do that when it comes to Tulsa. It highlights this heinous act of violence, indicated that he wished that all-Americans would stand against racial slur, or racist era and to take a moment to reflect upon how we can all end systemic racism.

In my minds and in the minds of so many I have spent four days in Tulsa. Walking the street, inspecting the soil, seeing what was taken away and seeing what was replaced. None of it pertains to the black community. And so, I think that as the beginning, reparations there and lawyers are in the midst of lawsuits, claims that were never responded to 100 years ago.

The voices of Mother Fletcher and Sergeant Ellis, a brother and Mother Randall are living examples of the obliteration of that town and how their lives were obtain with no resources because of what happened. So, I think that this is a clear example of reparations and it should then catapult HR-40, that the mission to study slavery and reparation proposals in United States.

LEMON: Let me talk about that. Because that you are sponsoring this bill that establishes a commission to study reparation proposals. Meanwhile, infrastructure, voting rights, even a January 6 commission facing dead ends or uphill battles on the Capitol now. Is this something Congress has a chance to achieve given that we can't find agreement on all the other crisis facing our country right now?

JACKSON LEE: You raised a very crucial issues. And the Congressional black caucus is the conscious of the Congress. And we have begun to make an agenda for the month of June. We called this racial month. Beginning with May31st and June 1st of course, with Tulsa, this has the month of (inaudible) were people were ultimately freed after two years past the emancipation.

George Floyd justice and policing act needs to be passed. We are going to go back to Washington and really focused on the fact that we waited too long and we believe that these bills can be healing bills, at least for the Senate to actually respond would be discussions that we think are near complete on George Floyd.

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The voting right is going to be a tough call that the administration, I believe, may be ready to make that tough call to pass those bills. (Inaudible) courageous Democrats gave us a lifeline to kill that deadly bill.

We need then to intervene and have a federal bill. And then, HR-40. I continue to maintain, Don, that it is a repairing, healing bill and members of the Congressional black caucus who have discussed this believe it to be the case as well.

And so we are going to move forward, we are going to press forward to bring some healing, then move into the president's agenda on the big jobs plan. We are going to have to go big because our time is short and the American people are waiting and there are more people who don't look like me.

Multicolored community who are supporting the job plan, and I believe want a less racial community and nation and are prepared to do what the president said in his proclamation, come together to rid us of systemic racism and to heal the nation. Repair the nation. That is what HR-40 is all about.

LEMON: Well, we are waiting to see what happens. I mean, and a lot of folks had been waiting a long time. They said, when are you guys going to do it? You got to do it, you got to do it. Thank you, Congresswoman. I appreciate it.

JACKSON LEE: We have to do it. Thank you for having me.

LEMON: My next guest argues reparations have already happened. How so? Stay right here.

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LEMON: So, the White House won't say if President Biden believes there should be reparations for survivors and descendants of the Tulsa race massacre 100 years later.

Let's discuss now. John McWhorter is here, professor of linguistics at Columbia University and the author of "Nine Nasty Words." It has been a minute, John. Good to have you back on. I hope everything is going OK. So --

JOHN MCWHORTER, AUTHOR, PROFESSOR OF LINGUISTICS AT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: It is good to be here. Thanks.

LEMON: So, listen, a lot of it, I think, depends on what the word reparation mean. So, what is the word reparation mean at this point to most people, because it has gotten caught in a larger division in our politics as just about anything to do with race does?

MCWHORTER: Well, the idea is to repair, but I think more specifically because words tend to become more specific in their actual meaning. We're thinking about making up for slavery and Jim Crow, and more recently, we also think about red lining as something Black America needs repair for, and I think that's a great thing.

LEMON: Yeah. So, let's get to specifically what the president was asked about today. Should the descendants of the Tulsa massacre receive reparations?

MCWHORTER: I actually think yeah. It was 100 years ago. There are still people living who underwent the trauma or who are just one generation from those who underwent the trauma. And I think that there should be some sort of acknowledgment that what happened was wrong and it should be in the form of perhaps payment or perhaps funding of programs that makes perfect sense to me.

I'm a little weary of the idea that we should think of that as a microcosm for what should happen for Black America because, not because I'm against reparations, but because reparations for Black America already happened starting in the late 60s. Some of it worked, some of it didn't, but our conversation now would have to be about whether Black America overall needs reparations again. That's a different conversation than we tend to have.

LEMON: Yeah. You're going to raise some eyebrows, as you know --

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: -- by saying reparations already happened. I'm sure you've felt it already. But this -- an economist from Duke University estimates to CNN that there were upwards of 100 massacres like Tulsa that took place between the end of the Civil War and the 1940s, right? So you're talking about reparations overall. This is part of it.

Does it become impossible to decide who gets reparations and who does not? And in that question, I think people think that reparations have to be in the form of payments, people are going to get checks or whatever. It doesn't have to be. Instead of paying it back, it can also be paying it forward. Do you understand what I'm saying?

MCWHORTER: Oh. Oh, of course. And you know, there will be no reason why you couldn't take every one of those massacres, Rosewood, Wilmington, North Carolina, and if it is something that is recent enough that you can identify exactly who underwent what or even close to it, I see no reason why there couldn't be reparations for those massacres given to people who survived those things.

And you know what, Don? If that happened to cover 78 percent of Black America today, that would be great. But the thing is it wouldn't. There is still a conversation we have to have about Black America in general.

And as far as the eyebrows raise, I think that we just need to realize that words aren't always applied to what they could apply to. Affirmative action was reparations. People didn't use that word but that's precisely what it was.

The Community Reinvestment Act of 1977 that forced banks to invest in inner cities, nobody makes a movie about that. But that was reparation. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. Welfare was reformed to be easier to get in the late 60s, another untold story. It was reparations.

LEMON: But John, also with that, John, you had -- when you're talking -- there was also the Urban Removal Act, which destroyed a lot of Black communities. There is also within affirmative action, there was a glass ceiling you may be hired, but you may not be promoted. There may not be equal pay.

[23:34:57]

LEMON: That certainly doesn't make up for the people who farmed lands for free while the slave master got all the wealth and you got nothing and no education and no right to vote. Even affirmative action, do you think, was reparations for all of that?

MCWHORTER: I very much do, because if affirmative action didn't help to turn Black America upside down, then why do we fight red tooth, claw, and nail whenever anybody threatens it? It created a huge Black middle class and it created black success of all kinds that wouldn't have happened without it.

I think affirmative action was a great thing, but I do think that it was a reparation. Nobody could have said that it was going to be perfect. If it was going to be perfect, we have to ask exactly why. But --

LEMON: You said a reparation. You didn't say reparations. You think it is a reparation or full reparation? You're a word guy, so I want to make sure that the words are -- people understand your words.

MCWHORTER: I think that it was, if I understand you properly, it was part of a program of reparations which is part of a national mood in the 60s and 70s such that it isn't true that white America or the powers that be never acknowledged the horrors that we went through.

It is just not true. Something happened in the 60s and 70s that we're beginning to forget. Maybe we can take some lessons from those things and do it again better, although I'm not sure if any of us know exactly what we could do to undo what we're now calling systemic racism. These inequities, what do you do? It is really, really complicated. So I think that we have a lot to think about.

LEMON: Yeah. Listen, you're always provocative. You always make us think we you come. We haven't had you on in a long time. We miss you. We'll have you back. Thank you. Important conversation. I want to continue it. John McWhorter.

MCWHORTER: Thank you, Don.

LEMON (on camera): So, it is the lie that won't quit. And now it is compounding even more. OK? Dan Abrams is going to weigh in on the big lie and the new conspiracies popping up seemingly every day. Plus, the former president, Barack Obama, has an interesting take on aliens and might take this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (voice-over): I would hope that the knowledge that there were aliens out there would solidify people's sense that what we have in common is a little more important. (END VIDEO CLIP)

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LEMON: Tonight, Michael Flynn, former President Trump's first national security advisor, claiming he did not call for a coup against the U.S. government like the one in Myanmar, but he was caught on video at a political event this weekend appearing to back the idea of an overthrow. Followers of the QAnon conspiracy theory were at the event.

Let us talk about this. I want to bring in Dan Abrams now. Dan is the author of "Kennedy's Avenger: Assassination, Conspiracy, and the Forgotten Trial of Jack Ruby," which is out today.

Dan, I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but I cannot wait. Your books are always very good. So we're going to talk about your book, by the way, which is one of the biggest conspiracy theories ever to spread around this country.

We got to talk about the conspiracies that are driving every -- pretty much everything right now. So, you heard Trump's former national security advisor, Michael Flynn, talking about the coup in the U.S., whatever. Why do people -- why do you think people are latching on to these lies about the election and even beyond?

DAN ABRAMS, AUTHOR: And then lying about the lie, right? I mean, after the fact, then saying, well, no, I didn't actually say that. And, you know, what you see is actually speaking of lawyers, lawyerly arguments to try and get your way out of a statement that you never should have made.

I mean, the statement was initially made by Michael Flynn at a sort of Q&A session, he is asked about that, and he said, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, that is something that we should consider here, et cetera.

And then when, you know, when the backlash comes and people say, wait a second, you're suggesting that even potentially a military coup here in the United States might be OK? No, no, no, I never said, I never said. It's true he never said we should have a military coup. What he said was that something like that certainly, you know, would be OK and encouraged here.

LEMON: We should -- we should consider that here.

ABRAMS: And that's the problem.

LEMON (on camera): It is just the most incredibly crazy thing that I have ever heard or seen. I want you to listen, though. This is the -- what the former president, another former president, Barak Obama, said on "The Ezra Klein Show." Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) OBAMA (voice-over): I could go to the fish fry, or the V.F.W. hall, or all these other venues, and just talk to people. If I went into those same places now - or if any Democratic who's campaigning goes in those places now - almost all news is from either Fox News, Sinclair's news stations, talk radio, or some Facebook page. And trying to penetrate that is really difficult.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): You know, he is talking about the propaganda on the networks that call themselves news networks. There has been a slant for years now, but the lies are really getting worse, Dan. Do you think anything can break that cycle?

ABRAMS: You know, look, I think that there is going to be a certain percentage of the population that is simply going to believe anything that Donald Trump says.

[23:45:05]

ABRAMS: Remember, when Richard Nixon resigned, he is still at 25 percent support.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

ABRAMS: There is going to be percentages of people who are simply going to say what he says goes. I believe him and not anything else that I hear. But I don't think that people should just give up and say, oh, you know, the Republican Party X or the Republican Party Y.

There are a lot of independents, right-leaning independents. There are a lot of more moderate Republicans who probably supported and voted for Donald trump who are also incredibly troubled by what Donald Trump continues to say, are horrified by the comments of Michael Flynn. And I think that with regard to those people, I think that there is still a very important conversation to be had in the middle.

LEMON: Listen, I think you are right about that. I hear it, you know, quite frequently from callers on your show, in your radio show, that there are people in the middle. But the problem is not the people in leadership, because they are afraid of being primaried. They are afraid of standing up against the former guy, so to speak.

But I don't want to waste time. I want to talk about your book, Dan, if we can, your new book, "Kennedy's Avenger." Talking about conspiracies. I want to talk about these conspiracies when it comes to the Kennedy assassination.

Listen, they have been floating around for decades. The Kennedy -- this conspiracy with the Jack Ruby, Kennedys, and all of that, I mean, that has been around forever. I mean, this is not new territory, but it seems to have become more divided. Talk to me about it.

ABRAMS: Well, so, more than half of the American public since the time that Kennedy was killed had consistently believed that there was a conspiracy to kill John Kennedy. And one of the things that we found amazing in researching our book, "Kennedy's Avenger," was that a lot of the conspiracy theories emerged from the trial of Jack Ruby. Oswald does not have a trial. He is dead. So Jack Ruby becomes the Kennedy assassination trial.

There were a couple of moments where, for example, the defense attorneys say, we would like to stipulate that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. The prosecutors say, we are not stipulating to anything. Aha! Why are the prosecutors not stipulating to it?

And FBI agent was asked at one point, did you find any evidence of Lee Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby having worked together, known each other? Before he can answer the question, it was objected to.

And so again, there was a specter of all these possibilities. And you know, it really is interesting to look back on the Ruby trial and the Kennedy assassination to examine the way conspiracies can develop. Some of the conspiracies surrounding the Kennedy assassination, you know, are based in certain fact. Lee Harvey Oswald lived in Russia.

(LAUGHTER)

ABRAMS: He wanted to go back to Cuba. You know, those are real things to consider. And then there are the absurd things, right? Lyndon Johnson was actually the one behind this, that Jack Ruby and Oswald were somehow related in some way, they were body doubles. You say to yourself, how does this stuff happen? How do we allow ourselves -- how many people in the public allow themselves to be taken in by these conspiracies?

And I think that that is one of the reasons why it is valuable to look back at the trial, for example, of Jack Ruby, to look back at the Kennedy assassination, because we are certainly seeing an enormous amount of conspiracy theories now.

LEMON: Yeah. Listen, it is fascinating when you learn the history of conspiracy theories. But I think this Kennedy one was the biggest. We will see how it holds up in history --

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: -- against the big lie.

ABRAMS: Yeah.

LEMON: But I certainly can't wait to read the book. Dan, I'm so grateful that you are here. Best of luck with the book. The book again is "Kennedy's Avenger" and it is out today. Make sure that you pick it up. Dan Abrams writes great books, and he does great TV and great radio as well. Thank you, sir. I appreciate it.

ABRAMS: Don, thanks for having me.

LEMON: Next, he says he doesn't know what those UFOs are, but he sure would like to. Former President Barak Obama talking aliens. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): Take this. Former President Barack Obama says he wants to know more about the rush (ph) of UFO sightings by the military that are coming to light. But when asked by The New York Times's Ezra Klein about how his politics would change if he discovered that we aren't alone in the universe, Obama is saying that it wouldn't.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EZRA KLEIN, JOURNALIST, THE NEW YORK TIMES (voice-over): I heard you say the other day that you'd like to know what those UFO objects are, too.

OBAMA (voice-over): Absolutely.

KLEIN (voice-over): If it came out that they were alien, if we got undeniable proof of that, how would that change your politics or your theory about where humanity should be going?

OBAMA (voice-over): It's interesting. It wouldn't change my politics at all, right? Because my entire politics is premised on the fact that we are these tiny organisms on this little speck floating in the middle of space. But the point is, I guess, that my politics has always been premised on the notion that the differences we have on this planet are real.

[23:54:59]

OBAMA (voice-over): They're profound, and they cause enormous tragedy as well as joy. But we're just a bunch of humans with doubts and confusion. We do the best we can. And the best thing we can do is treat each other better because we're all we got.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Nice to hear at a time when civility feels like it only exists in a galaxy far, far away.

Thanks for watching. Before we go, I just want to say happy pride month. Our coverage continues.

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ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: And good evening. We begin tonight with what President Biden is calling a threat to American democracy. Yesterday, the president said democracy itself is in peril.