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Don Lemon Tonight
President Obama Speaking Out On The Destruction Of Democracy; Sen. Joe Manchin Refuses To Support Voting Rights Bill; Republicans Aim To Block Biden's Agenda; Interview With Rep. Mondaire Jones (D- NY); Cancel Culture Creates Division. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired June 07, 2021 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST (on camera): I appreciate you're giving me this opportunity. It is now time for the big show, "DON LEMON TONIGHT" and its big star, D. Lemon.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Yes, sir, it looks like you had a question, did you?
CUOMO: How do you think the former president will resonate terms of the current state of play within his party?
LEMON: You mean the interview he did tonight?
CUOMO: Yes.
LEMON: Whoa. That's a big question. Well, I think look, I think people -- the more people see the former president the better. I think there is some need for clarifications about why he did some things, why he didn't do some things, by the way I have a person who's closest to him, during the president -- the presidency beside his wife, Valerie Jarrett is coming up in just a moment here on the show. And I'll ask her that question.
So, I do think that there needs to be some verification because people, and I believe, I mean, Donald Trump was a direct sort of answer to some people, to Barack Obama. I, you know, personally I think that, what happened is what happened. I understand what happened, we have debated it and talked about it.
But I was -- for me, I was most happy, I was happy to see him with the young men, with Anderson interviewing the young man about where they're going to do. And his question was profound, what do we need to do? How do we make it better for you? That's what I was concerned about, the politics part of it I'm not.
He did what he could as president. He had you know, conflicts and roadblocks and situations that other presidents didn't have because he was the first -- he was the first one. Anytime you the first one of anything, I'm just saying he just happened to be the first black one. You know, the rules are different for you. So, you know, I think it'll
resonate, I think will be some criticism about that he should've done more. And he should have known better, that Republicans didn't want to work with him, this should be a lesson for Joe Biden.
CUOMO: I think it's really interesting that he sees what is wrong with the state of play within his own party today.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: But he doesn't prescribe a solution. And I find that to be very common, even listening to Senator Chris Murphy today. You know, you know from Connecticut, very smart guy, you've had him on your show. He was, saying we got to find a way to get 60 votes, because if we're not going to get rid of the filibuster, 50 votes is irrelevant. We've got it figured a way to get the 60.
And while he is intellectually correct, it is such a odd political reckoning. You're not getting 60 votes on anything. Because you have guys aren't open hand in the Democratic Party, your coalition, your splayed. Whereas, this is the party of Trump, they are fist, they're coming at you as one. Because they play to win,
And I don't think they get it. And even listening to Obama tonight, he doesn't talk that way. It's not about doing what you have to do to keep power and use power to fulfill a mandate, I don't hear it in him. And no criticism in terms of the intellectualism of it, but the politics of it. I don't know that that party, even its best agent understands how to win in this environment.
LEMON: Well, Chris, I mean, quite frankly, I've been saying that for a long time and getting criticize for it even from, you know, Democrats who are currently in power are not happy. I just -- I just think if you're looking at the raw politics of it, which I've said, Republicans are better. Doesn't mean that they're better people or what have you, I'm not saying any Democrats or Republicans are better but they're better at the politicking, right?
They're better at sticking together, and you know, Republicans fall in line. Democrats don't. That was part of what the former president said. Democrats many times, you know, they have these purity test about everything and they're holier than now about many things. You can't have that. Politics -- the first rule of politics that Democrats need to figure out is that it's about winning. It's not a winning argument, it's about winning elections.
It's not about being who is more woke then the next person. It's about winning, and when you win, that's when you get your policies in place. That's how you do. And I just don't -- I just think that they, you know, right now, for the most part Democrats are more concerned about, you know, who can do, who's more on their side with what's right and, you know, all the stuff.
I just don't -- I just think they should be more like Republicans they need to be more cunning as I've said, and they need to focus more on winning elections, rather than winning arguments. [22:05:01]
And trying to, you know, hey, who's better than this person, and this person is more, what's the word I'm looking for?
CUOMO: I'm not offering you any suggestions.
LEMON: Virtue. Virtue signaling. Virtue signaling. Stop all the virtue signaling and win, that's it, as simple as that.
CUOMO: Well look, and I get why people will reject that. I'm just saying, listening to Obama tonight, he's incredibly knowledgeable. He was in there. He got beaten up --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But Obama is a nice person. That's not -- I mean, Obama is -- that's not what -- people like President Obama in part of why people like him, why he was such a great president and people love him, except for the far-right, they didn't like him. It's because he is a kind, he is a decent person.
I mean, I have to be honest with you, I don't see that much from Republican politicians. Look who they're standing by, look who they're backing? Even with all the lying. I don't think that the former president, meaning Obama, would do that if Democrats were doing and standing up. Look, he's criticizing his own party right there in that interview.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Yes. A little bit. And look, he got beat up -- he got beat by his party when he was in there also.
LEMON: He sure did. He got beat up by Black people, he's too respectable, he's not leaning enough, he's not hard enough, he's not tough enough. He got all those things. So, the pressure came from all sides --
CUOMO: Right.
LEMON: -- when he was president, that's why I said the rules are different for him.
CUOMO: But just hearing him, well, there's no question about that. I mean, look all you need to do is look at the Ezra Klein interview from last week about how his numbers, you can talk to Valerie about this. His numbers, every time he would talk about policing with any kind of edge of criticism, would tank because white America doesn't want to hear a black man --
LEMON: We'll see.
CUOMO: -- telling them that they have a problem.
(CROSSTALK) LEMON: Henry Louis Gates. That's when his numbers are the lowest.
CUOMO: Right. And I mean, that was a no-brainer, by the way.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: You've got a Harvard professor --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: That is ours.
CUOMO: -- on his own front porch. But I'm just saying it was interesting tonight where, yes, they get -- they all see what's wrong, I just don't see any fix coming anytime soon. That's just me, but I look forward to your conversation --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Any Democrats need to learn --
CUOMO: -- with Valerie Jarrett.
LEMON: -- how to throw a punch and to be strong.
CUOMO: You got to learn how to take a punch, you got to learn how to defend when the next blow is coming the next time and you have to figure out how to return it.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: Or at least learn not to get hit, you got to get some more Floyd Mayweather.
LEMON: Yes. It's not saying, I want to fend anybody. We want to do it. And every -- all of them, all of them, the current Democrats, the current ones who I don't know what they are, Democrats, look, they need to, bipartisanship as I said, bipartisanship for the sake of bipartisanship is empty.
Our democracy is on the line right now, and that's what we need to be focused on. Not just well, this is what we're going to do. Look, if you don't have a party that won't, you know, vote for a study on the insurrection, what makes you think that they're going to stand up and do the right thing? I just don't see it.
CUOMO: I know if they're talking it, but the space that I have been heard explored is do a one-off. Harry Reid did it.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: And I don't remember Manchin going crazy about that, do a one- off.
LEMON: Yes, I don't disagree with that. CUOMO: On this issue do a one-off. Or at least just return the rules to what they're used to be, that are more akin to the nostalgia that Senator Manchin has for Senator Byrd who put together some of the parliamentary procedures around the filibuster in, you know, in mid -- in mid-60s, 70s where make it harder to filibuster. Anyway --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: How about this, do the right thing. I love you.
CUOMO: I love you, D. Lemon.
LEMON: I'll talk to you later.
This is DON LEMON TONIGHT. Thanks for watching, everyone.
And what we're hearing from the former president, we just talked about it, what we're hearing from former President Barack Obama tonight should make every single American sit up and take notice. It should. Because this is really, really serious.
Our democracy is in peril, and we are right now in a crisis. The crisis is now, I know some people say all the crisis is on the rise. No, we're in a crisis. America is threatened by the big lie that fuel the insurrection at the seat of our government, the United States Capitol.
It wasn't a field trip, it wasn't a picnic, there it is right there. America divided by race, even a year after protesters demanding justice for George Floyd flooded our streets. And the assault on what may be our most precious right as Americans, the right to vote, that assault spreading all across this country.
Former President Barack Obama speaking out on all of it tonight. I want you to listen to what he told Anderson about what's going on in more and more stay legislators across the country. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Are we still just tethering on the brink or are we in crisis?
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I think -- I think we have to worry when one of our major political parties is willing to embrace a way of thinking about our democracy that would be unrecognizable, and unacceptable even five years ago or a decade ago.
[22:04:50]
When you look at some of the laws that are being passed at the state legislative level, where legislators are basically saying, we're going to take away the certification of election processes from civil servants, from secretaries of state, people who are just counting ballots, and we're going to put it in the hands of partisan legislatures who may or may not decide that a state's electoral votes should go to one person or another.
And when that's all done against the backdrop of large numbers of Republicans having been convinced, wrongly, that there was something fishy about the last election, we've got a problem. And you know, this is part of the reason why I think the conversation on voting rights at a national level is important.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): It is important. And as the assault on voting right former President Obama is talking gather strength the For the People Act is stalled in the Senate. Let's face it here if Senate Republicans continue to obstruct like they did when they wouldn't even allow a debate on the commission to investigate the January 6th insurrection at the capitol. If they put their own political lives ahead of the democracy, they were elected to defend, nothing is going to happen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: All those congressman sort of looking around and they said, you know what, I'll lose my job. I'll get voted out of office. Another way of saying this is, I didn't expect that there would be so few people who would say, well, I don't mind losing my office. Because this is too important, America is too important.
COOPER: Some things are more important than just --
(CROSSTALK)
OBAMA: Our democracy is too important. We didn't see that. Now, you know, I'm still the hope in change guy, and so my hope is that the tides will turn. But that does require each of us to understand that this experiment in democracy is not self- executing. It doesn't happen just automatically, it happens because each successive generation says these values, these truths we hold self-evident, this is important. We are going to invest in it, and sacrifice for it and will stand up for it. Even when it's not politically convenient.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): You heard him, you heard him. Democracy doesn't just happen automatically; we have to stand up for it. What kind of democracy do we have when the people we elect to represent us won't even stand up for the right to vote?
Before the People Act hanging by a thread now that Democratic Senator Joe Manchin says that he you won't vote for it. Slamming the door in an op-ed this weekend saying quote, "I believe that partisan voting legislation will destroy the already weakened binds of our democracy. And for that reason, I will vote against the For the People Act. Furthermore, I will not vote to weaken or eliminate the filibuster."
OK. That and a lot, we'll talk about all of that this evening. I'm not going to go on that much about it now, except for a little bit. OK. And then Joe Manchin goes on to act like he can make bipartisanship happen just by, I don't know, wishing really, really hard. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS WALLACE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Senator McConnell, the head of the Republicans in the Senate, says that he is 100 percent focused on blocking the Biden agenda. Question, are you being naive about this continuing talk about bipartisan cooperation?
SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D-WV): I'm not being naive. I think he's a 100 percent wrong in trying to block all the good things that we're trying to do for America. I'm going to continue to keep working with my bipartisan friends, and hopefully we can get more of them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Hopefully, hopefully, hopefully. Chris Wallace used exactly the right word, naive. Manchin is calling for a narrower bill of the John Lewis Voting Rights Act, which would allow the federal government to challenge states that make changes to their election laws, but even that stands little to no chance of winning. Winning over 10 Republicans.
Yet, Senator Manchin seems to be sacrificing all Democrats hope of getting anything done with a minority party that refuses to take bipartisanship seriously. He's trying to be bipartisan with a party that refuses to take bipartisanship seriously. All because of his defense of the filibuster.
OK. I want you to listen to this. Closely, this is Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr, 1963, this is what he had to say about the filibuster way back then.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR., MARTIN LUTHER KING'S SON: I think the tragedy is that we have a Congress with the Senate that has a minority of misguided senators who will use the filibuster to keep the majority of people from even voting.
[22:15:01]
They won't let the majority senators vote, and certainly they wouldn't want the majority of people to vote because they know they do not represent the majority of the American people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Nineteen sixty-three. Dr. King. Now, this is the former President Barack Obama, what he calls the filibuster a relic of Jim Crow.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: And if all this takes eliminating the filibuster, another Jim Crow relic, in order to secure the God-given rights of every American, then that's what we should do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): So, the filibuster, which Joe Manchin is determined to defend has a long, disgraceful history of being abused to block civil rights and voting rights bills. Used to preserve slavery in the 1840s before it was called the filibuster. It was used to defeat an anti-lynching bill in the 1920s.
In 1957, Senator Strom Thurmond took to the floor to filibuster the Civil Rights Act, speaking for a record 24 hours and 18 minutes. Also .in 1964, the longest filibuster in Senate history, 60 days almost derail that landmark Civil Rights Act.
Nineteen eighty-three, Jesse Helms, a senator then, finally dropped his filibuster attempting to block the bill declaring Martin Luther King Jr. day a federal holiday. Is a filibuster really worth more than voting rights for millions of people? Bipartisanship just for the sake of bipartisanship? Is it really worth knuckling under to a Republican Party that refuses to do the right thing if it would cost them votes?
That's how divided we are tonight. America, the divided. America, the polarized. Everybody in their own echo chambers. And it seems nothing divides us more than race. Here is former President Barack Obama what he has to say about all that tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: There are certain right-wing media venues, for example, that monetize and capitalized on stoking the fear and resentment of a white population that is witnessing a changing America and seeing demographic changes, and do everything they can to give people a sense that their way of life is threatened, and that people are trying to take advantage of them.
And we're seeing it right now, right? Where you would think, with all of the public policy debates that are taking place right now, that the Republican Party would be engaged in a significant debate about how we are going to deal with the economy, and what are we going to do about climate change, and what we are going to do about, low and behold, the single most important issues to them apparently right now is critical race theory.
Who knew that that was the threat to our republic? But those debates are powerful, because they get at what story do we tell about ourselves.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Like I said, America the divided. Former President Barack Obama warning us that we are in a crisis tonight. Democracy is in peril, and we are going to have to decide what we are going to do about that. What do we do about it? So, will America choose to defend democracy? Valerie Jarrett is here next, as her former boss has this warning tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) OBAMA: All of us as citizens have to recognize that the path towards an undemocratic America is not going to happen in one bang. It happens in a series of steps.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): The former President Barack Obama speaking out tonight about state legislators around the country moving to restrict voting rights, and how it is -- it's a danger to our democracy.
A lot to talk about now. Valerie Jarrett is here who is a senior adviser to President Barack Obama when he was in the White House. The author of "Finding My Voice."
Valerie, it's good to see you. You are the perfect person to talk about this interview tonight. It was a great interview. Good evening to you. Thanks for joining.
VALERIE JARRETT, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO PRESIDENT OBAMA: Thank you, Don. Good evening to you, too.
LEMON: So, the former president, he's pointing out what's going on in state legislatures with changing election laws, and the lies about the last election that still many Republicans now believe. Is there any question that he believes our democracy is in crisis?
JARRETT: Well, when Anderson asked him that he said, look, we are in trouble here where you have state after state after state. Almost all 50 states with attempts to try to undermine the ability of people to vote. And when it is so clear, Don, that the people that they're trying to suppress are people of color, young people, so they didn't win the election on the up and up. They said it wasn't on the up and up, even though obviously it was.
And now they are trying to change the law to make it harder to be people to vote. The thought that in Georgia it's against a lot to bring food or water to somebody standing in line. Come on.
LEMON: Yes.
JARRETT: That's ridiculous. Why would we be expanding early voting? Why would be making it easier for people who can't just take off on a Tuesday to go vote? Why would we make it easier for them? That's what a democracy is all about.
LEMON: He is saying that this is why the conversation on voting rights is so important, and also, why we need to talk about the filibuster. Watch this, Valerie.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: This is why I think conversations about some of the institutional and structural barriers to our democracy are working better, like the elimination of the filibuster or the end to partisan gerrymandering is important.
All of us as citizens have to recognize that the path towards an undemocratic America is not going to happen in just one bang. It happens in a series of steps. And when you look at what's happening in places like Hungary and in Poland, that obviously did not have the same traditions, democratic traditions that we did. They weren't as deeply rooted.
[22:25:05]
And yet, as recently as 10 years ago, we're functioning democracies, and now essentially have become authoritarian --
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Democracies doesn't always die in a military coup.
OBAMA: Yes.
COOPER: Democracy dies at the ballot box.
OBAMA: That's exactly right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): So, Valerie, I reminded my viewers that I had you a couple of months ago and you were getting to the same point. It's the same point that you've made to me before. Which is, that there comes a time between choosing democracy or the filibuster. That is that moment now?
JARRETT: Well, when the stakes here are as high as they are, I think you have a limited opportunity to act. In any other country where behaving the way we are behaving right now. The United States would be critical. We would be saying that's not the way a democracy behaves.
And so, look, the Voting Rights Act is an important act to pass. And if we can't get it pass with the filibuster, we should consider passing it any way. The American Jobs Plan, very important for our families, the American family brand.
All of the legislation that President Biden is pushing right now is what's going to bring us back from the brink of the disaster where we have been, protecting our democracy, rebuilding our economy, strengthening families, isn't all that of that far more important than the filibuster?
LEMON: Yes. Listen now to the former president talking about the GOP.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: I thought that there were enough guardrails intuition institutionally that even after Trump was elected that you would have the so-called Republican establishment who would say OK, you know, it's a problem if the White House isn't -- doesn't seem to be concerned about Russian meddling or it's a problem if we have a president who is saying that, you know, neo-Nazis marching in Charlottesville there are good people on both sides.
You know, that that's a little bit beyond the pale. And the degree to which we did not see that Republican establishment say hold on, time out, that's not acceptable, that's not who we are but rather be cowed into accepting it and then finally culminating January 6th where what originally was -- don't worry -- this is not going anywhere, we are just letting Trump and others vent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Valerie, so if this is who the GOP is. What does it mean for President Biden's push for bipartisanship? Is that a pipe dream?
JARRETT: Look, I think he has to try, he has to find a coalition of the willing and maybe he will. But I also think and he's already done this with the first rescue bill. He's only going to wait but so long.
I think it's in the country's best interest to have bipartisanship in theory but the way they are behaving for all the reasons, Don, you just outlined, they are not abiding by those normal guard rails that have protected our democracy for a very long time. And when you can't count on them to behave responsibly, well then the adult in the room who isn't putting short-term political interest first needs to do the right thing.
LEMON: Valerie Jarrett, always a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us this evening.
JARRETT: You're welcome.
LEMON: Thank you.
Up next, who President Barack Obama is blaming for our polarized politics and what he sees as a solution. But will any of those solutions work with the GOP that is not based in reality?
[22:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): The former President, Barack Obama speaking out tonight, warning out our democracy is at risk.
So, joining me now to discuss, CNN political commentator and former Obama senior adviser David Axelrod is, and Matthew Dowd, he is a former chief strategist for President George W. Bush.
Gentlemen, good evening.
DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Hi, Don.
LEMON: David, I'm afraid -- good evening to you. I'm afraid to what you are going to say, if you are going to slam me or whatever. But I understand that you want to talk about Chris and I, the crosstalk that we had. The hand off.
AXELROD: Well, you know, here is the thing as I was listening to this and I had to smile as Chris was talking about how weak Democrats are and they don't know how to fight and so on. And you know, I work for a president who we saw tonight who won two national elections by more than -- with more than 51 percent of the vote. The last guy to do that was Dwight D. Eisenhower. OK?
How did he do it? How did this penny ways unwilling to fight guy won two national elections, an African-American man named Barack Hussein Obama? I think he knows something about how to fight. When he got to be president he came to office as you know and this horrendous economic crisis and he led us out of that crisis despite the unweathering (Ph) opposition of the Republican Party.
He passed -- seven presidents tried to pass health reform. He did it. He did it. So, you know, don't tell me he doesn't know how to fight.
LEMON: But David --
AXELROD: He certainly was successful.
LEMON: I got to tell you, I don't know if Chris, or Chris nor I, well, maybe it was -- I'll let Chris speak for himself. The way I heard it, is that he wasn't talking about the former president, he was talking about the Democrats now but maybe I think he did say I didn't hear the former President Barack Obama offer any solutions.
AXELROD: Yes.
LEMON: I didn't -- I don't know about that part.
AXELROD: No, no, no. His intimate -- his intimation was that he is too -- that he's too polite he doesn't, you know -- that was the -- and look, I love Chris and I, you know, and I have this conversation with him, but you know, that's simply not the case.
LEMON: I get it.
[22:35:01]
AXELROD: The other reality check is yes, yes, it would be great. You know, I hear all the time from my progressive friends, forget about bipartisanship, just pass the damn bills. That's fine. But as Matthew can tell you, you know, even if you can navigate around the filibuster, you need 50 votes. If you don't have the 50 votes, you can't pass anything.
Joe Biden passed his American Rescue Act because Joe Manchin and all the other Democrats supported it. That's the reality that he lives in everyday and until he can cobble together 50 much less 60, you know, these are all academic discussions. And if someone else -- if someone has a great idea about how to get those 50 votes, that would be a constructive discussion. But to say hey, you don't fight hard enough, to me, is kind of empty words.
LEMON: All right. I get you. I think that -- I think that there would -- well, at least for myself again. And I think Chris and I -- Chris was talking about the same thing is that, we are talking about now. Not when Obama was president. This is a whole different world now. This is, you know, this is the post-Trump era. Things are different now.
Matthew, I'll let you weigh in, what do you think of what David said and what we're just talking about?
MATTHEW DOWD, FORMER CHIEF STRATEGIST FOR PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Well, I having been -- have been worked for both Democrats for many years and then Republicans, I mean, I think there are Democratic fighters. I think the problem today is that we are dealing with a Republican Party that no one is fundamentally faced in the way that we faced before --
LEMON: Right.
DOWD: -- because they don't really care about government. They don't care about any fundamental principles of ideology. All it is we do whatever I can to create grievance and fear among their -- among their votes. I mean, I'll tell you one thing about Democrats. And it's a virtue but sometimes it's a virtue that becomes a weakness. Democrats can feel shame, right? Democrats feel shame and they are backed down a lot by that sort of push back oftentimes when they shouldn't be.
Republicans feel no shame today which isn't good because they're willing to do anything, put up with anything and tolerate any corrupt incompetent leaders if it gets them what they want. And so, I agree with David that you need to 50 votes to pass.
And I think I'm one I wanted you know have advocated we need to get rid of the filibuster. I mean, if you are -- if you are a person that wants voting rights, if you are a person that wants an increase in minimum wage, if you are a person that wants climate change reform, if you are a person that wants gun reform, you can't have any of that with the filibuster as it exists today.
So, in order to get those things, you got to get rid of the filibuster. In the end, the only way to overcome this problem fundamentally is call off the truth which I think is important, call off the truth and where it is, put pressure on Joe Manchin and Senator Sinema. But it's the 2022 elections, and it's 2024 elections.
So, it has to be, I think that the only way we are going to get through this as a country is that Republican Party has to suffer devastating losses in a number of elections in a row in order for us to get through this. That's the only real way we'll get through this is Republicans have to lose badly in a series of elections.
LEMON: Yes. This is what I like is having this conversation because I know and you just know it is going to happen on social media. How dare Don Lemon, how dare David, how dare Matthew? I was like, we are just having a conversation and this is -- that's the problem with the country now.
People don't know how to, not only -- I don't know about civility. People don't know how to discuss things anymore without just -- without being curious instead of judging people and saying, David slammed Don for -- none of that happened. We are having a conversation.
AXELROD: Right.
LEMON: OK. So, David, let me ask you this, because you interviewed Congresswoman Liz Cheney for your podcast the X Files this weekend.
AXELROD: Yes.
LEMON: I want to play some of it and then I want to get your reaction. Here it is.
AXELROD: Sure.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): I think what Donald Trump did is the most dangerous thing and the most egregious violation of an oath of office of any president in our history. And so the idea that a few weeks after he did that, the leader of the Republicans in the House would be at Mar-a-Lago essentially, you know, pleading with him to somehow come back into the fold or whatever it was he was doing to me was inexcusable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): So here is the thing. And you know I hate to, but it's -- we got to talk about it because you talked about it with her. That he was back out this weekend spreading the lies, tis big lie at a rally in North Carolina. Cheney is standing up for her party, you know, for what the party won't do. But can she really get through when he has a megaphone straight to the base?
AXELROD: Look, first of all, I think she said she was standing up for democracy which Trump's every --
LEMON: Right on.
AXELROD: Look, I don't agree with Liz Cheney on hardly anything but I do share with her a love and a reverence for this democracy which is President Obama pointed out tonight. It's not a gift, it's a project. And it requires us to be vigilant.
[22:40:03]
And you know, I respect her for standing up. I think the other Republicans would look at her as a negative example only in the sense that, you know, she paid a price for standing up. She was repudiated by -- by the members of her own caucus. She points to her reelect next year, to Matthew's point about 2022 and 2024. She points to her reelection as a referendum on the direction of the
party and the direction of the country. And she is anticipating that she will get a full furry attack from the Trump forces to try and punish her for standing up against him and for democracy.
And she posits her race and her victory, you know, as striking a blow against them.
LEMON: Yes.
AXELROD: But right now, I think there are a lot of Republicans who are just running in fear. She says some of them are running in fear of their own security but they are also just running in fear of the political weight of the Trump voter and they don't want to -- and they don't want to take them on even when it means turning the other way on things like what we saw on January 6th.
LEMON: Yes. Matthew, I owe you one. Can you give me 10 seconds? Don't get me in trouble please. I'll let you respond.
DOWD: No, I'll give you 10 seconds. My only issue with Liz Cheney is that Liz Cheney is in a party that she no longer fits in and she hasn't figure that out and she's still in delusion about. That party no longer fits who she is. The second thing is, if she really believes in our democracy, she needs to leave the party that's trying to destroy the democracy.
LEMON: Yes.
DOWD: So that's fundamentally what she needs to do. She needs to leave the party that's doing exactly what she's criticizing Donald Trump for.
LEMON: Matthew, David. David, don't be mad at me, I still love you.
AXELROD: I'm not mad at you, Don.
LEMON: I know. I really enjoy the conversation. I'll see you guys soon. Thanks so much.
DOWD: Thank you.
LEMON: Progressive Democrats criticizing Joe Manchin for refusing to support a sleeping voting rights bill. One lawmaker saying Manchin's op-ed might as well be titled, why vote to preserve -- wait a minute -- why vote to preserve Jim Crow. Congressman Mondaire Jones. Why I -- sorry. I'm a little bit out of it. Let me try that again. Why I'll vote to preserve Jim Crow. There we go. Congressman Mondaire Jones joins me next.
[22:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): Senator Joe Manchin refusing to stand with his fellow Democrats on key issues. Stating in an op-ed over the weekend that he does not support the voting rights legislation known as the For the People Act. And repeating his opposition to killing the filibuster.
I want to discuss this with Congressman Mondaire Jones, a Democrat from New York. Congressman Jones, thanks for joining. So glad that you're here.
REP. MONDAIRE JONES (D-NY): Thanks for having me on the show, Don. Happy pride month.
LEMON: Thank you. You as well.
So, let's talk about, I want to read something from Joe Manchin's op- ed. OK. And I'll quote here. He says, "I believe that partisan voting legislation will destroy the already weakening binds of our democracy. And for that reason, I will vote against the For the People Act. Furthermore, I will not vote to weaken or eliminate the filibuster."
You said that his piece may as well be titled why I'll vote to preserve Jim Crow. Explain that to me, please, Representative.
JONES: Well, Don, you said this earlier today, that our democracy is in crisis and it faces its greatest threat or test since Jim Crow. We see it now and the racist voter suppression laws that have been enacted in places like Georgia and Florida, and soon enough in Texas. And with unified Democratic control of the federal government, we can actually act to save our democracy from the autocratic imposes of the Republican Party.
But we've got a Democrat from West Virginia in the Senate who is refusing to do just that. And so, he has to own the fact that he is the person standing in the way of saving American democracy during this critical summer when we can actually pass the For the People Act. There is no substitute for The People Act by the way. It is the only thing that will save our democracy and we have to move quickly in order to do that.
LEMON: Representative Jones, despite his views here, honestly, are you better off having Manchin in the seat or Krysten Sinema in her seat. Without them the Democrats wouldn't chair committees in the Senate, Schumer wouldn't be the majority leader, wouldn't you have even bigger problem?
JONES: Well, look, I reject this scenario where we have to have our democracy undermine simply to pass the American rescue plan, for example. I believe that we can do both. And what I'm calling for is for the president of the United States to use the bully pulpit the stature of his office and all the resources that he has at his disposal as the most powerful person in the world to strike a deal with a member of his own party to do that which requires to save our democracy from the people who are having an under assault right now.
And I don't think that's asking too much. In fact, it is required in order for us to have all of the things that we take for granted in this country. You know, all the progressive, obviously a legislation that people like myself push for but more baseline, the right to vote in this country.
We know that the Republican Party of today cannot win on the merits of its policy ideas. Someone says it seeks to disenfranchise large numbers of the American electorate. And that is untenable. We are witnessing in real-time the Republican Party set itself up so that in January of 2025, if a Democratic president is fortunate enough to have won the presidency the year prior to not even certify that presidential election.
[22:40:01]
Like what my colleagues tried to do in January of this year, just hours after nearly dying alongside me at the capitol that day.
LEMON: Let me ask you something before I ask you the next question. Do you consider Joe Manchin a centrist?
JONES: You know, I really don't know whether to call him a conservative Democrat, a centrist or more specifically, someone who is opposed in having --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: The reason I asked for it -- the reason I asked is I'm asking that question is because I was just going to say, do you -- is there -- is there a room for a centrist in the party? That's the question people are asking.
You got room for the progressives. Is there a room for a centrist if you consider him a centrist? And if you centrist, I think voting rights is something that should be bipartisan. But go on, I'm sorry.
JONES: Yes. It's why I kind of reject the question. Because 55 percent of Republicans support the For the People Act. And so, this is not something that should be partisan. The fundamental right to vote in this country. Of course, we have centrists in the party and those centrists by the way in the House and in the Senate, like Amy Klobuchar are calling for the passage of the For the People Act.
So, there is no question that the Democratic Party is a large enough tent to include centrist and conservative Democrats. But as it concerns the fundamental right to vote in this country and the American democracy, that should not fall along partisan lines. Unfortunately, we see it doing precisely that with respect to the Republican Party --
LEMON: I got it.
JONES: -- and that voter suppression all across the country along party lines.
LEMON: Congressman, always a pleasure. Thank you. And again, happy pride to you. Thanks so much.
JONES: Thank you. Take care. LEMON: Former President Barack Obama giving his take on cancel culture
in a CNN interview tonight and he is warning about the dangers of going overboard.
[22:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): Take this. Former President Barack Obama weighs in on what he calls the dangers of cancel culture and how it impacts his daughters who are now young women in college, as well as their peers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: A lot of the dangers of cancel culture, and you know, we're just going to be condemning people all the time. At least among my daughters, that they'll acknowledge that sometimes among their peer groups or in college campuses, you know, you'll see folks going overboard.
But they have a pretty good sense of, look, we want -- we don't expect everybody to be perfect. We don't expect everybody to be politically correct all the time, but we are going to call out institutions or individuals if they are being cruel, if they are discriminating against people. We do want to raise awareness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): As I have said many times on this program, there is a legitimate debate, a very legitimate debate about whether it has gone too far, meaning cancel culture. A lot of Republicans now yell cancel culture anytime someone doesn't agree with their positions. The differences between being held accountable for your actions and just canceling people who don't agree with you as conservatives do a lot. Liz Cheney, anyone?
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
