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Don Lemon Tonight

Desperate Search for Survivors in Rubble of Collapsed Condo in South Florida; Bipartisan Breakthroughs on Infrastructure, Police Reform; Mike Pence on Attempts to Overturn the 2020 Election; The GOP Outrage Machine in High Gear Over Critical Race Theory; Britney Spears Pleads with Judge to End Court-Ordered Conservatorship; Debate Over Policing Reform Reaches a Boiling Point as Crime is Spiking Nationwide; "Lady Boss: The Jackie Collins Story" Premieres Sunday on CNN. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired June 24, 2021 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: So, here's the breaking news at this hour. There's a desperate search under way right now for survivors who may be trapped in the rubble of a collapsed condo in south Florida. At least one person is dead. Officials say 99 people are unaccounted for tonight, though it is not known whether all of them were in the building at the time.

President Biden announcing he has reached a deal with a bipartisan group of Senators on a massive infrastructure package worth more than $1 trillion. Many hurdles remain, including questions about support at the end of the day from enough Republican Senators and progressive Democrats. And a bipartisan group of negotiators trying to iron out a policing reform bill saying tonight they're reaching. They've reached an agreement on a framework. But a lot of work needs to be done on that as well and they continue talking over the next few weeks.

Let's bring in -- let's talk about this devastating apartment complex, so this building collapse, just a few miles north of Miami Beach. You see him there on your screen, we are going to talk to him in just a moment. Part of the building collapse early this morning while residents were sleeping. 99 people are unaccounted for tonight. There's Charles Kesl, he is a commissioner of Surfside Florida, and he joins us now.

Charles, good evening to you. Again, I have to thank you as I did the mayor, because I know it's very busy. And we have the video of the collapse up on the screen now. I can only imagine how painful it is, speaking with families, with loved ones still unaccounted for. Time is of the utmost importance. Are you hopeful about survivors?

CHARLES KESL, SURFSIDE FLORIDA COMMISSIONER: Well, thank you for this question. And it's sad to be meeting under these circumstances. I do have hope. And I think the families of those missing have hope. But realistically, you know, I'm not sure how many or if anyone will be recovered and found alive. It's a tragedy and it's a sad day here in Surfside.

LEMON: Say the last part again. You said you're hopeful but what?

KESL: Oh, I said I'm hopeful, but reality is, when we look at the rubble across the street, you know, it's possible that there may not be any survivors, or many. But I remain hopeful. We have to stay hopeful at this point.

LEMON: And because the conditions are so awful, so awful. And they're dangerous and difficult, this work is dangerous and difficult for the rescue folks as well. Did you want to say something, Charles?

KESL: Exactly, yes. All day long, I can say, that the support from the County and our fellow communities in Miami-Dade County has been remarkable. Fire and rescue for Miami-Dade has been standing by most of the day while the situation was assessed, because the structural integrity of that building that still standing, or a part of the building that is still standing is in doubt. And so it's always been a concern and it's hindered any rescue or search effort. And we want everyone to stay safe who is in the recovery and certainly those rescuers across the street.

LEMON: Do you have -- can you talk to me about the equipment you're using and what the plan is, your special equipment assets are on site to help find these survivors, also to keep the rescuers safe in that rubble, can you talk to us about that, Charles?

KESL: I'm not privy to that specific information. That's made at the office of emergency management, Miami-Dade fire and rescue. And I have my trust and faith in them. I've worked with them as the liaison via the COVID task force here in the town of Surfside, which we established to deal with COVID.

[23:05:06]

And I have nothing but faith in them. And in terms of the equipment that they're using and their decisions on whether or not the structure is sound enough to continue the search effort that they're doing now.

LEMON: OK. Listen. There's incredible video that we have up on the screen that we're looking at, it is extremely challenging, as I said, an extremely dangerous for these rescue and recovery teams. Let me ask you this, and hopefully you can answer this, maybe it's not in your purview but I'll ask anyway.

I understand that this building was under scrutiny, Charles, because it was going through a 40-year recertification. The New York Times is reporting that the building was about to undergo extensive repairs for rusted steel, damaged concrete. Do you know anything about that, do you think it has anything to do with any of this?

KESL: Well, yes, sir, I do. And if anything, that's what really makes me quite upset and angry, that this catastrophe could happen, because there have been many engineers in that building for the 40-year recertification. And it's been under scrutiny. And while I am familiar with an assessment that was made as part of the plan to go forward for the next 40 years, there has been no indication that the building is unsound or in any way, let alone at risk of a catastrophic collapse like this.

So that's what's mysterious to me. And I think that's what needs to be solved. And I know that it's a methodical process to determine the cause of this collapse. But at one level, time is of the essence, because if there is something unknown about something missing in the inspection process, in the structural engineering process, there is a sister building here and there are many other condominiums along this ocean ridge of Miami Beach, in Surfside, in Bell Harbor, that will need to be inspected.

And if there's something that's going on with the ground and the natural erosion that's been happening with rising water tables and rising sea levels, then we need to investigate that too. And the science is there to make sure that everyone is safe and secure in Surfside.

LEMON: Yeah. Charles Kesl is the Surfside commissioner. Charles, thank you so much, we appreciate it.

KESL: My pleasure, and thank you for your prayers and your hope.

LEMON: Yes. Absolutely.

So, I want to bring in now the former Miami-Dade fire chief, Dave Downey. Chief Downey, thank you. You know, you've talked before, we've spoken under some other, you know, conditions, nothing this bad. Good evening to you, thank you.

DAVE DOWNEY, FORMER MIAMI-DADE FIRE CHIEF: Thanks for having me.

LEMON: 99 people unaccounted for tonight. What's being done right now to find anyone who may still be trapped in this rubble?

DOWNEY: Well, there's an established process for any type of collapse search and rescue. And so early on, as we saw, those surface victims, those victims that were lightly trapped were removed, and then we brought in the technical search personnel. These are highly trained, highly experienced personnel. Their part of -- their team members, Miami-Dade sponsors -- excuse me, one of the 28 national urban search and rescue teams, so they're right here locally.

And they are now engaged in what we call the void search. So what they're doing is systematically going across the rubble pile, looking for any indication of life. They'll use k9s, they'll use search cameras that they can put into small spaces. They'll use listening devices. Anything available to them to try to locate any survivors. And they're going to do this as a step by step process.

Many of the people, you know, see this collapse and they say, why aren't the big, heavy equipment out there, why aren't the cranes out there? First and foremost, we don't want to disturb this rubble. We have part of a building that hasn't collapsed, that's unsupported. There's a lot of debris hanging off of the collapse -- unsupported building. And so the rescuers are in tremendous danger in some of the areas that

they're working. So it has to be a very methodical process to go through this search.

LEMON: You know, Chief, there are structural engineers embedded with these rescue teams, but you know, you're talking about why you're not bringing out the heavy equipment and just how tenuous it is, right. Because this stuff is -- you know, one thing is resting on top of something which is not secure which is resting on something else that is not so secure. So, what are you doing to make sure that these teams are OK, and just how dangerous is it for these first responders?

[23:10:10]

DOWNEY: Well, it's certainly a dangerous situation. The rescuers, you know, assess the risk. They rely heavily on their training, their experience, and these structural engineers that are very experienced in these types of structural collapses. They're the ones that are going to tell us it's a go, it's a no-go, or you need to stabilize the area before you can move in. They're constantly monitoring the building for the slightest movement that would indicate that there's a potential for another collapse.

LEMON: Yeah. Chief Downey, thank you so much. I appreciate it. I'm sure we'll have you back on CNN. But you guys be well. And we're thinking about you. Thanks so much.

DOWNEY: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

LEMON: Thank you. You know, this shows you just how important it is to have buildings be secure, our infrastructure secure, even though this is a building that people lived in, it doesn't really have much to do with the government, but it sort of brings home what can happen if you let these things, possibly, in this case, go too long without being recertified and so forth.

So, let's turn now to that bipartisan breakthrough for the Biden administration on infrastructure and also on police reform as well. So joining me now CNN senior political analyst Jon Avlon and political commentator, Alice Stewart, good evening to both of you and I'll say from the onset, as I know both of you, our prayers are with the folks, especially the family and the people who still maybe trapped there. So we are thinking about them.

So, let's discuss this as we're thinking about the folks in Florida. Good evening. John, you know, a bipartisan deal for infrastructure and an agreement on the framework for bipartisan police reform. They are still a long way to get this all across finish line, but is Biden's bet on bipartisanship paying off at this point, it seems, I don't know?

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Looks like it. And you know, he took a lot of heat from folks who said they were skeptical or cynical that this was even possible. But Biden put a lot of faith in his senate years and the ability get people to reason together. This is a long way from being a done deal. But you got to remember that during the Obama years, Mitch McConnell and co. filibuster and blocked a $60 billion infrastructure bill from President Obama.

So this is a very big deal, even if it's less total dollars than a lot of Democrats might wish. It is evidence that after all the promises of infrastructure week we heard over and over again from Donald Trump, that maybe Joe Biden and a centrist group of Senators can get it done. That's a big deal.

LEMON: Well, here's the thing. Let's be practical about this. I'm sure Democrats in the progressive wing of the Democratic Party would like to have a whole, you know, a whole lot more money, maybe they're banking on the next round to get more money. But when you're negotiating, that's what happens. You compromise, you don't get everything you want, and then you start to, you know, after negotiating, you negotiate a little bit more, you develop confidence with people. So, let's hope that is the atmosphere that will start to you know, spread itself around Washington, D.C. I'm hopeful. Who knows?

ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think so too. And I agree with John and I'm sure you agree as well.

LEMON: Alice, but I can hear all the folks out there going, oh, right, Don. That will never happen.

STEWART: No, it's nice to have an infrastructure week actually last more than five minutes. And look, the president said it today and everyone will agree, bipartisanship is the way to move forward and the way to make progress in Washington, D.C. And it's been so refreshing to see the give and take and the back and forth by Democrats and Republicans and this president.

And while bipartisanship is the path forward, bait and switch is a path to stalemate. And the problem we had today, we had a tremendous victory when we said we have a deal on infrastructure. But when the president and the gang of 10 came out and spiked the football and then two hours later we hear they have moved the goalposts, it's really not a victory.

And when we have that contingent on a progressive wish list, I see it being very difficult to move forward with this successful infrastructure package if there's going to be that companion bill that progressives want to be attached with it.

LEMON: Well, they said they had a deal, so let's see. Who knows? This is a first step. I want to play this, though, Alice, this is the former vice president, Mike Pence, pushing back on criticism that he didn't go along with attempts to overturn the 2020 election. This is what he said at the Ronald Reagan institute tonight. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, FMR. VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The truth is, there's almost no idea more un-American than the notion that any one person could choose the American president. The presidency belongs to the American people and the American people alone.

(APPLAUSE)

[23:15:00]

And I will always be proud that we did our part. On that tragic day, to reconvene the Congress, and fulfilled our duty under the constitution and the laws of the United States. Now, I understand the disappointment many feel about the last election. I can relate. I was on the ballot.

(LAUGHTER)

But, you know, there's more at stake than our party and our political fortunes in this moment, if we lose faith in the constitution, we won't just lose elections. We'll lose our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Wow. That's quite a statement from the vice president. You know, the truth is powerful, Alice. Alice?

STEWART: It certainly is. That was a very delicate line for him to walk with regard to making that a bold statement, without going too far and really standing up against the former president. But I think what's really important is you have to give Mike Pence credit for the January 6th action that he took.

As president of the Senate, when he was being requested by the former president to stop the certification of the election, and Mike Pence said I can't do that, I'm not going to do that, and my role is to preside and not change the outcome of these elections.

LEMON: OK.

STEWART: And so I applaud him for that. But I think the most important thing, what he said, is not only do we need to stand by our constitution, we need to stand by the integrity of our elections, and that's what needs to be translated across the board.

LEMON: OK. Alright, I want to -- last word, quickly, please, John, if you will.

AVLON: Look. There can be no compromise with lies. And this is as close as he's come to actually speaking clearly on the subject. You shouldn't have to walk a line. I understand the politics of it. But what he said was right. He should say it consistently and loudly and sooner, because it's important.

LEMON: Thank you both, I appreciate it. I'll see you soon.

STEWART: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: It's all anybody's talking about, the GOP outrage machine in high gear over critical race theory. And wait until you hear who is piling on over the latest big lie.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [23:20:00]

LEMON: So, just in the last segment before the break, we heard Mike Pence speaking about upholding the constitution on January 6. But the former vice president tonight also joining the rest of the GOP, pushing false right wing talking points about the teaching of critical race theory.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PENCE: We must eliminate critical race theory at every level.

(APPLAUSE)

(CHEERS)

Critical race theory teaches children as young as kindergarten to be ashamed of their skin color. It represents a full-throated assault aimed at the heart of the American experiment. And it's nothing short of state-sponsored and state-sanctioned racism. Our party must ensure that critical race theory is expelled from our schools, our military, and our public institutions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: And they just can't help themselves. OK. Let me say this, right. And tell everyone you know. Put it on the internet. What he just said is not true. Critical race theory isn't being taught to kindergarteners. It is something law students study. Unless you have, you know, kindergarteners in law school.

And it's not about shaming white people. Critical race theory is a legal theory that has to do with systemic racism. Again, law schools, not kindergarteners. That is a bald-faced lie, an outright lie. So, joining me now, CNN political commentator Amanda Carpenter. I guess you would call that gaslighting, right?

AMANDA CARPENTER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR SENATOR TED CRUZ AND THE AUTHOR OF GASLIGHTING AMERICA: Yeah, I mean, there's a lot going on with this. I mean, I think the first thing for people to understand is that in the post-whatever this post-Trump-ish era is, is that there is a massive political media and activist infrastructure that needs things to get mad about, to get people to fund raise after. And so that's why you're seeing like all this flash in the pan culture war stuff come up that gets really hot, burn really bright, and sort of goes away super-fast. You saw that you know, with the campaign against Dr. Fauci, the lockdowns and now the CRT.

LEMON: Dr. Seuss. This -- Antifa was at you know, the January 6th. I mean, look, you're right. I want to play this video and then continue on, but -- people are flipping out, crashing school board meetings, Amanda, even getting arrested over critical race theory, and it's all based on these lies that you just heard Mike Pence pushing. Why is this new right wing obsession so successful in revving people up? It's almost like the insurrection at school board meetings, right? This isn't just Trump supporters.

CARPENTER: Yeah. Because it has to do with kids. When you push that button --

LEMON: And they're trying to win back the suburbs, is that what's happening? Is that what this is about, go on.

CARPENTER: Absolutely. Steve Bannon thinks this can be the Tea Party to the 10th degree or something like that. And I do think there's a quality (inaudible) to that, you have groups like the Heritage Foundation that can talk to these people in the suburbs, that can get them organized and activated extremely quickly and go out to these school boards and crash these meetings much like the Tea Party people did in 2009 when they show up to these candidates and elected official.

[23:25:02]

But I do think this one is a little bit different. Yes, people get animated quickly because it does have to do with children. People think their kids are being indoctrinated, they are taught things they don't understand and don't like. But you know what else people also don't like? Their schools becoming a hostile zone. The idea of sending your kids to a place where parents are fighting.

The pictures coming out of the Loudoun County last night where, you know, a parent, somebody was arrested, he had his shirt off, his face was bloodied, the state police had to be called in. I don't know how that's a net win for the Republican voters.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Yeah.

CARPENTER: But maybe people like Steve Bannon are telling people that. I mean, Mike Pence, I was fairly alarmed with what I just heard when he's talking about state-sanctioned racism, that is hot, hot language.

LEMON: Yeah. And it's going to go on for a bit. Amanda, unfortunately I have to run, there's so much more to cover, we have that breaking news. Thank you, Amanda Carpenter, always a pleasure. Bye-bye.

So Britney spears' bombshell hearing leading to a lot of apologies over how she's been treated over the years, right. Including from celebrity blogger Perez Hilton who says he feels deep shame and regret. Well, guess what, there's Perez. We'll talk to him after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So Britney Spears shining a light on her personal struggles, living under a court-ordered conservatorship for nearly 13 years, most of that time under the thumb of her father, who controls her life, her career and her finances. Spears is now 39 years old, pleading with a judge to end the conservatorship, calling the situation abusive.

I want to bring in now Perez Hilton, the celebrity blogger and host of the "Perez Hilton Podcast." He's on the record now apologizing for how he treated the pop star in the past. Perez, thank you for joining. It takes a big person --

PEREZ HILTON, CELEBRITY BLOGGER: Thank you for having me.

LEMON: -- I have to say right of to apologize. But we have to -- you got to own up to what you did and then we have remind the audience, so let's get right to it.

You say that you carry deep shame and regret knowing that you contributed to her pain. There's no two ways about it. You were a bully, Perez. You've been open about the fact that you said -- of what you said and did. It was some very mean thing. You were known for scribbling nasty things on photos. Why did you say those things about her and what has changed since then?

HILTON: I said those things for attention. And at the time, I didn't care if it hurt Britney Spears. How cruel is that? I now realize there are way more important things than just getting attention and you can do that in other ways, in ways that aren't nasty, mean, cruel, hurtful or bullying.

The thing that hurts me the most is, at the time, I knew what I was doing was wrong. It's like a drug addict who might steal from a loved one or just does something that they know they shouldn't do but they do it anyways. And that's something that I will carry with me forever.

LEMON: Yeah. So, you've apologized. I'm not sure if you can call it directly because you haven't -- what do you --

HILTON: I have as well. I --

LEMON: What do you say?

HILTON: I've apologized privately to Britney Spears. You know, last year was very challenging for all of us and I went through a severe depression, which led me to do a lot of soul-searching. So I reached out privately last year to many people from my past, celebrities and non-celebrities, that I also thought I should apologize to, and Britney Spears was one of those.

I know people very close to Britney, and that person told me that they sent her and she saw my private e-mail to her. And they didn't reply back with if she had a response to me or not. They just said I showed her your e-mail.

LEMON: What did you say, Perez?

HILTON: Basically how deeply sorry I was. I mean, I don't remember everything that I said in it. I thanked for her for her graciousness in the past because after everything that I had done during those very turbulent years in her life, she asked me to be a part of her circus tour. I was in the opening montage. Then she was equally kind and gracious when I went to her Las Vegas residency. She invited me up on stage --

LEMON: Wow.

HILTON: -- and put me in one of her bits. That goes to show you that she is just so -- I don't want to say forgiving because that's for her to speak on.

LEMON: She's a big person. She is a bigger person than you at the time.

HILTON: Yes.

LEMON: Let's get into what she said. Britney spoke out against what she describes as an abusive conservatorship. She said this about her father. She said, but my precious body has worked for my dad for the past f-ing 13 years, trying to be so good and pretty. So perfect because he works me so hard when I do everything I'm told.

And she explains of being afraid to speak out because she thought no one would believe her. She says, I've never said it openly. And mainly I didn't think to say it openly because I honestly don't think anyone would believe me. To be honest with you, the Paris Hilton story, on what they did at that school, that's why I didn't want to say in this, people would make fun of me or laugh at me and say she's lying.

So she said the last time that she spoke to the judge, she felt like she was dead, that she didn't matter. Is she right? Why do you think her voice was ignored all this time?

HILTON: People dismissed her.

[23:34:58]

HILTON: You know, they -- the judge said -- I don't want to speak for the judge. I'm not sure. But it's really frustrating because we're in 2021 now and two years ago, Britney previously went to this same judge asking to make changes to the conservatorship. Even last year, once again, asking to make more changes to have her father removed completely and that wish was not granted.

There is another court hearing scheduled for next month. It is my sincere hope that Britney is able to live her own life now and enjoy it however she wants, mistakes or not.

You know, she says that she is traumatized that every day she cries. You know, she wants to have another child, but this conservatorship has control over her body, forcing her to use this contraceptive device that won't allow that to happen. That does not seem like a way to live to me.

LEMON: Listen. You are a celebrity blogger and a reporter on the entertainment industry. Do you think others owe an apology to her like Justin Timberlake, personally?

HILTON: I think the world owes an apology to Britney Spears. I'm not here playing a victim. I will call out that, you know, since the court appearance on Wednesday, I've been getting so much -- more than hate. I've been having people daily, hourly, and every minute tell me to kill myself, saying I look disgusting and the most awful things.

And it's very hypocritical of me -- of those people to bully me for my past bullying behavior. And everybody who took part in the past, I think we're all to blame. The world, the legal system, her family, her manager, everybody failed Britney Spears.

LEMON: Yeah. Listen. This was earlier. You know, Justin put out something after this, but earlier in the year, we saw that Britney Spears -- he apologized to her and also to Janet Jackson as well. But, man, Britney, it's a lot.

I think that this story, actually, Perez, is going to open up a lot of issues that we have with conservatorships, with mental health, the way we look at people, how we treat people, with the entertainment industry, how people report on it, and quite frankly with the legal system and judges as well. Thank you, Perez Hilton.

HILTON: Britney said that herself. She said the concept of conservatorship, that there are so many people under them that are being abused.

LEMON: Hmm.

HILTON: So I think like we've seen with Paris Hilton, we might see Britney now become an advocate for others that have experienced what she has.

LEMON: Yeah. Thank you, Perez. I appreciate it.

HILTON: Thank you.

LEMON: Possible breakthrough on police reform. Negotiators in Congress say that they have reached the framework agreement. How will it play into the crime surge that we are seeing across America? That is the question.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So, congressional negotiators have reached a framework agreement for policing reform with talks continuing over the next few weeks. But key negotiators tell CNN they still have a long way to go to get a final deal. The months-long negotiation happening as President Joe Biden is addressing a nationwide spike in crime.

So let's discuss with Sondra Samuels, the president and CEO of Northside Achievement Zone, a non-profit that works with thousands of families in the most underserved communities across Minneapolis. I'm so glad that you're here. Thank you so much for joining us.

So listen, amid this crime spike across the country, including Minneapolis, there's a big split in the country on what to do to reform policing. Some are saying defund. Some are saying that we need more police officers. You say you fall somewhere in the middle. So what's your solution, ma'am?

(LAUGHTER)

SONDRA SAMUELS, PRESIDENT AND CEO, NORTHSIDE ACHIEVEMENT ZONE: That's so good. First of all, I have to say, I'm talking to Don Lemon!

(LAUGHTER)

SAMUELS: Hey, Don.

LEMON: Hi. How are you, Sondra? Thank you.

SAMUELS: So excited. I'm doing great. Thank you. Don, yeah, so I am in the middle and we need some middle of the road people because we have people on two extremes.

LEMON: Yeah.

SAMUELS: And one in it's all -- and by the way, nobody is an enemy of mine, I'm not a hater, but we have extremes because we are in a country that is a mess right now, OK? We don't know what to do in terms of policing, in terms of so many areas of discrimination.

And so you have the far-right and the far-left. And the far-left is defund, get rid of, demolish, dismantle. And on the far-right, you have our police officers are so great, how can anybody say anything bad about them?

And then, Don, there are people like me who are right in the middle, who are demanding, demanding radical reform of our broken police system. But also understanding that we have to have a both/and (ph) approach. Every police officer is not Officer Chauvin. I live in one of the most high crime neighborhoods in Minneapolis, North Minneapolis.

LEMON: Mm-hmm.

SAMUELS: I can't live here without police. So we need radical reform. We need the social supports, Don, and more than social supports, we need to get at the discrimination and racism --

LEMON: Let me --

SAMUELS: -- in education and housing and health.

LEMON: Let me ask you this. Let me ask you this.

SAMUELS: Yeah.

LEMON: I just want to put this up there. This goes to what you're saying. The gunshot victims in Minneapolis, they're up 123 percent from this time last year.

[23:45:02]

LEMON: There are fewer cops on the street. You sued the city for failing to keep its residents safe. So, who is hurting the most here? Go on. Sorry.

SAMUELS: Yeah. So, you know, I was going to say the "and" (ph) is, we have to have sufficient staffing levels. That is what we are talking about. I'm not talking about more cops. I'm talking about just sufficient staffing for a city that has 422,000 residents.

And so, yes, Don, to your point, around who is getting hurt, yes, shooting victims are up, shootings are up just astronomically. We've had 288 this time this year, last year this time, 179.

And here is the crux of it, getting at what you just asked. Black lives matter. When George Floyd was murdered, Don, we all know that, you know, that was the tip of the racist iceberg. There is an iceberg. That's not the only racism in terms of policing. Under the iceberg, so many other things.

Anyway, that really kind of catapulted this movement in earnest, right? I mean, it was really leading up to that. But Brother George really took us over the edge, around (INAUDIBLE), all black lives matter.

And so the very people we want to protect from the police are the ones who are being most harmed by this defund rhetoric, right, and the demonization of all police officers.

LEMON: I've got to run, Sondra.

SAMUELS: Yeah.

LEMON: OK.

SAMUELS: And saying we don't need them.

LEMON: Yeah.

SAMUELS: So that's where we are.

LEMON: Listen --

SAMUELS: We're getting hurt the most.

LEMON: Yeah, I agree with you. Listen, we need police reform, there is no doubt, but we also need police.

SAMUELS: No doubt.

LEMON: We also need police. Thank you very much, Sondra, it's a pleasure meeting you.

SAMUELS: You're welcome. You, too, Don. LEMON: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Romance novelist Jackie Collins is one of the most successful female authors of all time. But her best story may be the one that she never got a chance to tell, and that's her own.

Now, the new CNN film "Lady Boss: The Jackie Collins Story," it explores the personal life of the 1980s icon who promoted her own particular brand of feminism while building a Hollywood and literary empire. Just a preview now.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

UNKNOWN (voice-over): I sort of knew it was a different upbringing.

Parenting wasn't really a verb back -- back in the 70s and 80s. I didn't really understand what it was she was doing. All I knew was that mommy was on TV a lot. There were definitely two sides. There was mom and there was Jackie Collins.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Jackie Collins.

(APPLAUSE)

UNKNOWN: A lot of people who are wonderful writers. By that, I mean people who use the language beautifully and elegantly, which was almost the direct opposite of Jackie.

UNKNOWN: Is it exhausting?

JACKIE COLLINS, ROMANCE NOVELIST: What?

UNKNOWN: Doing research for your books?

COLLINS: No.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO TAPE)

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: Joining us now is Jackie Collins' daughter, Tiffany Lerman. Tiffany, thank you so much. I mean, huge fan of your mom. I'm so grateful that you're doing this. She was a superstar. She's glamorous. She's sexy, sophisticated, and influential. You must get asked, all the time, but what was it like having Jackie Collins as a mom?

TIFFANY LERMAN, DAUGHTER OF JACKIE COLLINS: I do, Don. I do get asked all the time. And it's funny because people are always surprised by my answer. I always tell them it was very normal. We had a completely normal upbringing. There were no chauffeurs. There were no cooks. There was no full-time staff.

She was just completely present, full of love, full of laughter in our lives. She would wake up every morning, she would make us breakfast. She would drive us to school. She would go home. She would work all day. And then at pick-up time, she'd come and pick us up, make us dinner.

I mean, she was completely present. And everybody's so surprised to hear that because they see this -- this glitz and this glamour. And that was the Jackie Collins's persona. But the mother at home was completely different.

LEMON: And it's interesting because she considered herself a feminist. Correct me if I'm wrong, but critics often dismissed her and her books. What did she teach you about a woman's place in the world?

LERMAN: Well, like I say in the movie, her motto was, girls can do anything. And she saw, from a very early age the double standard in her own household, also in Hollywood, as she, you know, tried to be an actress early on before she became an author. And she didn't like what she saw.

She was so ahead of her time because she -- she knew there was something wrong with it. She didn't understand why women couldn't be as equal as men. And so that's what came into her writing. That's what she wrote about.

[23:55:00]

LERMAN: She wrote about these strong female characters. And she taught my sisters and I to be strong, too, which is a great lesson to have learned from her.

LEMON: Tiffany, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Best of luck to you.

LERMAN: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Thank you. Thank you.

LERMAN: Thank you.

LEMON: Be sure to tune in, the all new CNN film. It is called "Lady Boss: The Jackie Collins Story." It premieres Sunday at 9:00 p.m., only on CNN. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: I want to tell you about this week's CNN hero, who has been working to change the disproportionate effect the coronavirus pandemic has had on people of color. She is a pediatric surgeon who has spent the last 14 months building trust and bringing testing and vaccinations to those in need in her hometown of Philadelphia. Meet Dr. Ala Stanford.