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Don Lemon Tonight

President Biden Met With Senators Manchin And Sinema; All Talk No Done Deal; Top Generals Disagree With President Biden; LeBron James Admits Being Vaccinated; Brian Laundrie Still Being Searched; General Mark Milley Responds About His Quotes On Many Books; U.S. Not Alone In Many Things. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired September 28, 2021 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST (on camera): They want to censor on social media. No. And I know a lot of that comes from the right. You know who gets the most traffic on the right? You know who has the most penetration? And it was the top of the list, members of the right and the pundits request. So I don't know what they're complaining about.

Don Lemon starts tonight right now with its big star, D. Lemon.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: OK. So, you know this one. I'm fired up about. I've always been. I've always felt this way that social media should be regulated. They should follow the same rules that we follow here in legacy media. They should -- you shouldn't just be able to spread things about people that's not true.

So, it has a big influence on someone's livelihood, their credibility, their career, even their lives and so I think that this should be regulated. I've always thought that. I don't think that I should be able just to go on Twitter or Facebook or Instagram and say whatever I want about Chris Cuomo whether it's true or not.

I don't believe that people should be able to do that or about anyone, even someone who is -- doesn't like me. I don't believe that you should be able to do that. I don't believe that people should be able to -- there's a -- I told you about there is a picture on social media of me and you, right? That people love to spread.

I don't bother with it anymore but they have photoshopped Jeffrey Epstein's face over your body and they spread it and they say Don Lemon doesn't want people to see him with Jeffrey Epstein. It's not -- and social media won't take it down. It's -- and it's -- you know --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: So, I think --

LEMON: People believe it's true. They think it's true.

CUOMO: Here is the word I disagree with. Regulated. Why? Because it sets you up for failure because it reads to people like, they want the government to control everything and it plays into all these political tropes.

LEMON: It should be at least true, Chris.

CUOMO: Absolutely. No, no, I'm not talking about the nature of the content, I'm talking about the mechanism of change.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: What I did was give them the benefit of the doubt that they built the stadium. They don't populate the inside the way we do --

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: -- and we have different vetting. But I have evolved in my understanding because I now have a much better understanding of what they can know and how easily they can manipulate. That's why I'm bringing up the kids.

You milk in kids for money because you can and what McNamee said and that's why I'm going to do a regular session with him about this until we get to a solution, is you know how to manipulate what's on and to control what's on and to curate what's on. So, you can do this.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: And it is your business model, as he says, you can't make money off misinformation and disinformation. Human trafficking is an extreme example. And of course, you can't do that because it's a federal felony but there are a lot of things that are felonious that you're letting get by --

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: -- just because it works for your business model.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: And the time has come. For them we have to flip it.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: And show us that you can't do what you're being asked to do.

LEMON: The most egregious of it all, though, is what you said, it's the people who have the biggest platform on social media.

CUOMO: They're all righties.

LEMON: They're all righties. All of them are righties. Listen, even, and if you want to call it legacy media, even some of the conservative media they do the same thing. They have no -- they have no real protocol. They have no real structure in what -- they say what they want. They put headlines and things and write about things.

CUOMO: They say it's opinion.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: This is all opinion.

LEMON: But most people -- most people -- we would never even put it on, give it the light of day because --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: That's because we have news accountability.

LEMON: -- number one, you know it's not true inuendo. That's the --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: That's the Fox farce. The whole nighttime lineup is entertainment.

LEMON: All right. But Fox and social -- they said -- then they shouldn't put news behind it and social media should do the same thing. They should not just be able to put things out there and with, you know, because they still have consequences.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Because they know. You know, you and I talk about needing bigger lines for a boat, all of a sudden, we're getting ads for all kinds of boat stuff.

LEMON: Yes. They miss me.

CUOMO: They know what's being said.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: So, if you know what's being said and you find ways to profit off it, then you have to police it. And I know what kind of journalist is going to say they want censorship.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: It's not censorship.

CUOMO: It's not what we're talking about --

LEMON: This is not censorship.

v If you can't say it here, you shouldn't be able to say it there.

LEMON: Amen.

CUOMO: That's the point. And the time has come and it's got to be pushed.

LEMON: I agree. I agree. Yellow journalism. For the ones who claim to be journalists. The others just innuendo. It's like going out -- social media is like going in the middle of the street and screaming opinions is basically what it is, so you know.

CUOMO: It is, except instead of just in the middle of the street, it gets delivered to everybody.

LEMON: Around the world.

CUOMO: In their mailbox.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: And you can see it and you see it --

LEMON: Very good point.

CUOMO: -- without any context.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: I love you, D. Lemon.

LEMON: Love you more. I got a lot to talk about because we are running out of time in many, many ways, Chris. I'll talk to you about it.

CUOMO: Make your witness.

LEMON: All right, sir. I'll see you soon.

This is Don Lemon Tonight.

Is it still infrastructure week? Is it still infrastructure week? I thought that was over with the last administration where every week, or every day was infrastructure week. Right?

[22:04:59]

So, Joe Biden is running out of time with everything on the line. We are running out of time and I'm going to explain that by the end of this take that I'm doing right now.

By the way, it marked Don's take, right? I'm being transparent here. When I give you this at the top of the show, I tell you it's my take. All right? It's not just like some channels opinion or propaganda.

Democrats are running out of patience with the holdouts in their own party. Joe Manchin getting facetime with the president today for more than an hour. Krysten Sinema having not one but two, not two, but three. Three White House meetings today. Yet sources tell CNN that there are so plenty of areas of disagreement and it's not all, not at all that clear how quickly a deal could be reached.

That as the House Speaker Nancy Pelosi does a 180 now, saying that she's going to hold the vote on Thursday on the president's bipartisan infrastructure deal without a deal on the massive spending that could reshape the lives of millions of Americans. And progressives are digging in their heels.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): Our caucus is strongest when it's unified and decoupling these bills. It starts -- it starts to pit priorities against one another and that's why I don't -- I disagree with separating that.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D-VT): It goes on and on and on. We're talking and we're talk and nothing is happening and I think that's why it's important that we defeat the infrastructure bill in the House and that if these guys want to see the infrastructure bill pass, they have to deal with us some reconciliation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): He's right about that one thing. Talk, talk, talk and nothing happens. American people need their elected officials to work for them and not for their parties. And not for each other or themselves I should say.

That is happening as the clock is ticking to midnight Thursday with a possible government shutdown looming. Military personnel wouldn't get paid, care about the military but, you know, they're not going to get paid because you can't reach a deal. You don't want to raise the debt ceiling and you've done it before.

So, military personnel wouldn't get paid, neither would hundreds of TSA employees, and cuts to the CDC, though apparently not to those working on the COVID response. And if the United States defaults in a matter of weeks nearly six million jobs could be lost. Did you hear that? Nearly six million jobs could be lost. And maybe that is a point for some. To sabotage it because they're not in power. Well, kind of. Minority rule is happening right now. But anyways, I digress.

So six million jobs could be lost. Unemployment could soar. Stock prices could plummet potentially hammering your 401K's. That's what at stake if Congress can't get it together in time. And then there were the fireworks on Capitol Hill today as the nation's top generals contradicted the president on whether they want to keep 2,500 American troops in Afghanistan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KENNETH MCKENZIE, COMMANDER, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: I won't share my personal recommendation with the president but I will give you my honest opinion and my honest opinion and view shaped my recommendation. I recommend that we maintain 2,500 troops in Afghanistan.

SEN. JIM INHOFE (R-OK): General Milley, I've seen you agree with that in terms of the recommendation of 2,500?

MARK MILLEY, U.S. CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: I do agree with that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): OK. So, remember the president told ABC's George Stephanopoulos this, and it was just last month when he it. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, CHIEF ANCHOR, ABC NEWS: Military advisors did not say no, we should just keep 2,500 troops. It's been a stable situation for the last several years. We can do that. We can continue to do that.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: No, no one said that to me that I can recall.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): OK. That I can recall. All right. The fact is Joe Biden is the commander in chief. He ran on getting out of Afghanistan and he did just that. Now the White House pushing back on the critics pointing out nobody thought keeping 2,500 troops on the ground in Afghanistan was sustainable.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Recommendations made by a range of his advisors something he welcomed, something he asked them to come to him cleareyed about to give him candid advice. There was no one who said five years from now we can have 2,500 troops and that would be sustainable. And I think that's important for people to know and to understand.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): He can't recall but the two gentlemen saying they told him. And then there is General Mark Milley's response to reporting and Bob Woodward and Costa's book. It's called "Peril." That he agreed with Nancy Pelosi that the then president was crazy during a call two hour -- two days after the insurrection at the capitol.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MILLEY: I sought to assure her that nuclear launch is governed by a very specific and deliberate process. She was concerned and made very or made various personal references characterizing the president.

[22:09:56]

I explained to her that the president is the sole nuclear launch authority and he doesn't launch them alone. And that I, I'm not qualified to determine the mental health of the President of the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): He was emphatic and chose his words carefully. That is a pretty extraordinary statement. The chairman of the joint chiefs saying that he's not qualified to determine the mental health of a president. And how about the exchange with Republican Senator Marsha Blackburn who asked General Milley if he was accurately quoted in any of the books about the Trump administration.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARSHA BLACKBURN (R-TN): General Milley, yes or no to this, did you talk to Bob Woodward or Robert Costa for their book "Peril?"

MILLEY: Woodward, yes, Costa, no.

BLACKBURN: Did you talk to Carol Leonnig and Philip Rucker for their book "Alone Can I Fix I?"

MILLEY: Yes.

BLACKBURN: Did you talk to Michael Bender for his book, book "Frankly We Did Win This Election: The Inside Story of How Trump Lost?"

MILLEY: Yes.

BLACKBURN: And were you accurately represented in these books?

MILLEY: I haven't read any of the books. So, I don't know. I have seen press reporting of it.

BLACKBURN: OK.

MILLEY: I haven't read the books.

BLACKBURN: Let's have you read the books and then let us know if you are accurately presented him --

(CROSSTALK)

MILLEY: Absolutely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): He saw the press reporting so then he knows the quotes and he knows the context. You will notice that he didn't say he was misquoted in the revelations in any of those books.

There is another book in the news, as well, from former Trump White House press secretary Stephanie Grisham. I don't know, I'm calling her press secretary because you know, she is the one who never held a press briefing, which was her job. Right? That was her job.

So, she's got a new book out. Hugely ironic title, it's called "I'll Take Your Questions Now." The New York Times reports that Grisham writes that the then president inspired by North Korea's brutal dictatorship asked her to research ways the press could be barred from the briefing room which seems like a waste of time since she wasn't briefing anyone. She also strongly implies that the former president's secret visit to

Walter Reed in 2019, remember, appeared to be for a routine colonoscopy. But she claims that he didn't want his own vice president to be in power while he was sedated so he kept the whole thing quiet. OK.

And then there is what she calls Trump's son-in-law and senior advisor Jared Kushner reputing -- is that respite or reputing? In a slim fitting suit, the slim reaper. OK. Sure, she won't answer the questions now but she never spoke up about any of this at the time when it might have done the country some good.

And speaking of doing some good, there is a huge announcement today from LeBron James. OK? This is good news. The Lakers superstar says that he was skeptical about the vaccine at first but did his research and decided to get vaccinated.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEBRON JAMES, NBA PLAYER, LOS ANGELES LAKERS: I know that I was very skepticism about it all but after doing my research and things of that nature, I felt like it was best suited for not only me but for my family and for my friends and, you know, that's why I decided to do it.

We're talking about my individual's bodies, you know. We're not talking about something else, you know, political or racism or police brutality and things of that nature. We're talking about people's bodies and wellbeing, you know, so I don't feel like for me personally, that I should get involved in what other people should do for their bodies and their livelihoods.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): A lot of people look up to LeBron James and value his opinion so it matters that he speaks up publicly about getting vaccinated even though he had doubts. But even though he doesn't want to speak for what anybody else should do.

So, if you believe in the science, if you do your research and follow the facts, don't you have a responsibility to use your platform to tell people the truth? I talked about that with hall of famer Kareem Abdul-Jabbar just last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR, NBA HALL OF FAMER: We have to educate ourselves so that we understand what is being offered. These vaccines are safe and they are effective, and we have to fight this virus as a group.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): He's going to be here again tonight to talk about what LeBron did today. And we've talked about our toxic politics and literal toxicity of anti-vax rhetoric and there are still people out there spreading the big lie, people like you have -- you've got to pay attention to this. Because we tell you, look, you know, about the former president and the big lie.

[22:14:56]

But you know who is actually spreading the big lie and implementing policies that are dangerous because of the big lie? It's more important that we talk about the people who are in power who are helping to spread this B.S. and to keep it going. People like Congressman Paul Gosar still lying about non-existent election fraud in Arizona and beyond.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. PAUL GOSAR (R-AZ): We can do that and follow through on this audit. Folks, if it's what I've been told and I had people come to me early hours or the day after from the security exchange fraud department to CIA fraud department that between 450 and 700,000 ballots were altered in the state of Arizona.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Not one word of that is true. If those departments even exist. And he's telling, this is an elected official spreading that. Trump is not an elected official anymore. Paul Gosar is and the likes of him. Therein lies the problem. All of that is a lie what he said. Just the kind of toxic lie that is still spreading across this country.

And speaking of a former president, the former President Barack Obama had something to say today about all of this toxicity.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: What we've seen is that in the breach a culture of criticism and mistrust can grow. We start seeing more division and increasingly bitter conflict. The politics that feeds anger and resentment towards those who aren't like us. And starts turning away from Democratic principles in favor of tribalism and might makes right.

This is true in Europe and in Asia. It's true in Latin America and in Africa and it happens to be true here at home. But the good news is we can reverse these trends. I don't believe it's inevitable that we succumb to paralysis or mutual hatred or abandon democracy in favor of system that reserve power and privilege for the few.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Look, he is an optimistic man, he's more of optimistic than I. This is and this whole idea about the time that I mentioned in the beginning, the whole theme of this is that we're running out of time. That is the warning from the former president. The toxicity however is real and it is dangerous.

Time is not running out. Because the time is here. The lies are all around us and if we can't get a grip as a country, it just might be too late. The top generals apparently contradicting their commander in chief

today and the White House is pushing back. Is it a problem for the president?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PSAKI: He asked for candor. He asked for directness. And in any scenario, he's not looking for a bunch of yes men and women. And what that means is that ultimately, he is going to have to make the decision about what's in the best interest of the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[22:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): The president cancelling his plans tomorrow to try to salvage his legislative agenda. The president today meeting with Democratic Senators Joe Manchin and Krysten Sinema at the White House but the divide between those senators and progressive Democrats is still as wide as ever with no clear answer on how to get both sides to agree on passing a bipartisan infrastructure bill and larger spending package.

So, joining me now, CNN's chief political analyst, Gloria Borger, and CNN political commentator, Charlie Dent. A-team. A-team tonight, viewers. A-team.

Good evening.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Hi, Don.

LEMON: Gloria, I'm starting with you. Progressive Democrats are furious over --

BORGER: Sure.

LEMON: -- the House speaker's plan to hold a Thursday vote on the bipartisan infrastructure bill decoupling it from that larger spending bill. Is Biden going to be able to get this done?

BORGER: He's got to be able to get something done, Don. I don't know what the size is going to be. It's not going to be $3.5 trillion if I had to guess it will be two or under and then an infrastructure plan. But, you know, this is a governing moment for the Democratic Party.

They have control of Washington. The White House, the House, the Senate, yes, there are slim majorities but they have to show the American public that they can govern. And I know that progressives want to deliver everything all at once and moderates don't. And there is a lot of tension there and a lot of friction there because they're saying, OK, Senator Sinema, tell us what you want.

There is not a lot of conversation going on there with her. Not a lot of conversation going on with Joe Manchin. Joe Manchin gets invited to the White House. Krysten Sinema gets invited to the White House. They're not going there. So, they have to figure out how they can get things done for the American people and be able to go home for the midterm elections and say guess what?

LEMON: Yes.

BORGER: We're going to lower your prescription drug costs or your health care costs. Something. They need to do something and they have to get out of their own way.

LEMON: Yes. Charlie, listen, and progressives are really frustrated because they said the deal was, is that these two bills would go --

BORGER: Yes.

LEMON: -- in tandem and that is not what's happening now.

BORGER: Together.

LEMON: They're tired of giving -- right, they're tired of giving, giving and getting nothing back.

BORGER: Yes.

LEMON: And getting blamed for it. In the meantime, Senator Manchin is saying that it's wrong for progressives to hold a bipartisan bill hostage. But aren't he and Senator Sinema holding the larger bill hostage and not making any commitments, Charlie?

CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, I actually think --

(CROSSTALK)

BORGER: Sure, I mean I think it works --

DENT: Joe Manchin --

BORGER: All right.

DENT: -- and Krysten Sinema are correct here. The progressives are holding hostage. They're holding hostage. The bipartisan infrastructure bill. Plain and simple. And it's unreasonable for progressives to be condemning a lot of these other moderates for not supporting a reconciliation bill that is simply not ready.

[22:24:54]

How can they -- if I were a moderate Democrat, I'd be setting myself on fire right now over the fact that they're being asked to support something that is simply not ready and it is far too big. These people are urging restraint, these moderates, and I think they're absolutely on the right track and the progressives should be ashamed of themselves for trying to blow up a job's bill, a bipartisan jobs bill that, by the way, has the support of organized labor. So, good luck explaining that at home.

LEMON: Gloria, you wanted to respond. You were saying?

BORGER: No. Look, I think -- I think that both sides have a right to be angry to a certain degree but this is so self-destructive. It is self-destructive behavior. They need to behave like adults and say look, here is what we disagree on and here is what we're not going to do. We'll put that on one side and we'll try and do it at some other point.

But first of all, let's get the things done that we can get done so we can preserve our majority instead of losing them in the next election. I know what progressives are saying. They're saying our people are the ones who came out in the election and they're going to sit at home if you don't do everything at once.

I don't think that's necessarily true at all. I think the voters want to see the Democrats govern and they want to see some things get done. They want an infrastructure bill. It's hugely popular. Pieces of these legislation is -- are very popular individually.

So, let the public know what it is you're voting on instead of just saying $3.5 trillion. Let them know what you're voting on, pass it together and say here is what is in store for you next and we did -- we did it without any Republican help.

LEMON: Charlie, you know, let's talk -- I want to talk about Afghanistan now. Because top military leaders, some today appearing to contradict what the president said about whether to leave some troops in Afghanistan. Is this a problem for administration?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DENT: I do think it's a problem for administration, Don, because I think the president laid out a false choice to the American people. His narrative was that we need to pull out every -- that we had to evacuate all of our troops or a massive escalation. And the truth is, you know, we were better off with a residual force there. Some presence to maintain what was an uneasy status quo but much better than what we have now which is a Taliban controlled Afghanistan.

So I do think that these generals, I think that the president, this is a moment of hubris for him. He was very self-confident. He was very sure of himself. He wanted everybody out even though it was pretty clear to me that most of his military advisers did not advice this type of withdrawal and now we heard that today from the generals.

LEMON: I enjoyed the conversation. See you both soon. Thank you, Gloria. Thank you, Charlie.

BORGER: Sure.

DENT: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: So, he is finally confirming he is been vaccinated but he's not ready to encourage others to do so yet.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JAMES: You guys should know me. Anything that I talk about, I don't talk about other people and what they should do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[22:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): Los Angeles Lakers superstar LeBron James says he is now vaccinated against COVID-19 after he was initially skeptical of the vaccine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES: I know that I was very skepticism about it all, but after doing my research and things of that nature, I felt like it was best suited for not only me but for my family and for my friends, and you know, and that's why I decided to do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): So, joining me now, NBA legend Kareem Abdul- Jabbar. You can get all his takes topics like these at kareem.substack.com.

Thank you for joining us again, sir.

It was only last night when you and I talked about LeBron not disclosing his vaccination status. Now we know. Were you happy to hear it?

ABDUL-JABBAR: Yes, I was happy to hear it. Just the fact that he responded to the pressure to do the research. Anybody who does the research will find that the vaccines are safe and they're effective. He is a parent. This is what it's all about for him. And he's not like throwing himself out there as Mr. supreme role model but as a parent and someone who is concerned about his health and his family's health. He went and got vaccinated.

So, you know, I have nothing but respect for him and his approach to it, I hope some people emulate what he's doing because the more knowledge we have, knowledge is power and people who know what is going on are able to be the ones that survive this.

We've seen that the parts of the country that are the least vaccinated are the parts of the country that are now having an epidemic.

LEMON: Yes. Yes.

ABDUL-JABBAR: This is a definite evidence of what we've been talking about all along.

LEMON: Look, just one clarification to what LeBron said there when you said do your research. I don't want people to think that that means going online because that can be a very dangerous place because not everything there, right, is checked. So, if you're going to the CDC web site, OK, good. But you should go to your doctors and listen to professionals and not be online because not all of that is true and accurate.

ABDUL-JABBAR: Good sources that you know are reliable and aren't a sham. It's not a sham.

[22:35:05]

LEMON: Yes. Yes.

ABDUL-JABBAR: There is too much of that going on, people just saying the president was using household disinfectants or detergents.

LEMON: And light and all of that. Let me ask you, I want to ask you because he stopped, he really stops short of advocating for it. I mean, he said that he didn't think that he should get involved with people's choices about their bodies, saying that it's not the same sort of issue as racism or police brutality.

Does it strike you that he'd be so outspoken and an advocate for those causes but not really for the COVID vaccination?

ABDUL-JABBAR: That -- how do you make sense of what comes out of his mouth? You talking about the former president, right?

LEMON: No, no, no. I'm talking about -- I'm talking about LeBron. He said he doesn't want to -- he doesn't want to -- he stopped short of advocating for people to get it, saying it's their bodies. He doesn't want to get involved in people's choices about their bodies. It's not the same sort of thing he says as racism or police brutality.

ABDUL-JABBAR: Right.

LEMON: But he's been out spoken about racism and police brutality, so what do you think of that?

ABDUL-JABBAR: Well, LeBron is an outspoken guy, and important it is, we're going to hear from him. That shouldn't surprise anyone. But like I said, LeBron took the time to investigate and after he did that, he made a choice for himself and his family and said that look, you don't have to follow behind me but that's what he did and if he has to go public, well, then, those are the facts.

LEMON: Yes. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, I appreciate you joining us once again. Look, this conversation is going to continue. You might be back here tomorrow, sir, if somebody else says something, another athlete about the vaccine so thank you for joining us.

ABDUL-JABBAR: Thank you for sharing some time with me. All the best and stay healthy.

LEMON: OK. You, as well.

So there is new information out about where Brian Laundrie was and who he was with right after returning home without his fiance. That's up next.

[22:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): OK, so there is a new development tonight in the search for Brian Laundrie. An attorney coming -- confirmation to CNN that Laundrie and his family went camping for a few days a week after he returned to Florida without his fiance Gabby Petito. And now her family is pleading with Laundrie to turn himself in. He vanished just before Petito's body was discovered in Wyoming.

So, let's discuss with Mark O'Mara, a criminal defense attorney, and senior law enforcement analyst, Andrew McCabe. The former FBI deputy director who is the author of "The Threat: How the FBI Protects America in the Age of Terror and Trump."

Good evening, gentlemen. Thank you so much.

Andrew, you're up first here. So, the Laundrie family went camping 75 miles from their home with Brian when he returned home without Gabby and days after returning from that trip, Brian is reported to be missing. I mean, that raises a ton of questions, no?

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes, yes, for me, Don, it raises a lot of questions about what does -- or what do Laundrie's parents really know? Because, you know, when you think about essentially taking a weekend camping vacation with your son who just returned from months on the road camping with his fiance and returned without his fiance, it's almost impossible to imagine that conversations didn't take place between them about, I don't know, where is your fiance and why did you leave her in Wyoming or wherever he claimed to -- they had parted ways.

LEMON: So maybe he never told them. You think maybe he told them. Maybe he told them she's with her family. Go on, I'm sorry.

MCCABE: I guess -- I guess that's possible, you know, but it really turns up the pressure, I think on the strategy of bringing Laundrie's parents in front of the grand jury. We know they have a grand jury because they have that indictment for the use of the, you know, unauthorized use of the credit card.

And I think that getting those folks in front of a grand jury on the record, asking them what they knew, what Laundrie told them is going to be really important at this phase of the search.

LEMON: All right. Mark is waiting to check me. Go ahead, Mark O'Mara. You said no way, you think they knew. Go on.

MARK O'MARA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. I mean, what Andrew is saying, but I think there are very few questions left. There is no doubt that when he came back that exactly what Andrew said, there were going to be questions like where in God's name is Gabby. And whatever that conversation was, it wasn't just I left her. OK, let's go camping. There is no doubt that these parents are doing what most parents would

do, unfortunately, in this case and that is their protecting their son, whether that was giving him a bunch of money, driving the car to the swamp where it was not and might that saw that boy is never been in that swamp in the past two weeks but whatever.

And I think that the DeSoto trip, maybe that's where they gave him the 75 mile head start heading north but they did what, you know, sometimes the simplest answer is the correct one, which is he did something wrong, whether it was a domestic violence event or heat of passion killing, he killed her it seems, comes back home. Mom and dad protect him as best they can and eventually, if he's not in the swamp dead, he's going to be found and then we'll going to have to try and piece all this together.

I like what Andy said about the grand jury. But let me tell you, the FBI and the federal prosecutors are taking their time. They've got their warrant out there. That's why they did the credit card charge so that they can actively look for him.

[22:44:58]

But they're going to take their time on the murder case. They are going to make sure every T is crossed, and every I is dotted because, you're right, Andy. When we get -- when they get the parents in front of that grand jury, there is going to be an enormous amount of information they cannot wiggle their way through and they're going to take their time and do it well and do it once.

LEMON: OK. Listen, since you're on the subject of the family. You're an attorney here, Mark. I want to ask you, because the Laundrie family attorney is issuing the statement. And the statement says that Chris and Roberta Laundrie do not know where Brian is. They are concerned about Brian and the FBI can -- and hope the FBI can locate him.

As I said, you're a lawyer. Does it strike you how little this family is saying given all of that's happened right now?

O'MARA: They're saying enormously little because they can't say much more. I mean, they don't want to put themselves in the middle of a, you know, interfering with a federal investigation or investigation of a crime. They don't want to put themselves in the middle of harboring a fugitive or assisting with accessory after the fact when you help somebody get away.

So, I think the attorney is doing the only thing he can do. It may be a true statement that when he said those words, that they don't know where he is, they may not now. But the question is what they did to assist, if anything, and look, this is all supposition by me as well, Don. You know, I don't have any great insight.

But I've done this for 35 years. And that family seems to have helped their son move away from the area in a way that would minimize the chances of getting caught for a crime. It looks undeniably that occurred. LEMON: OK. So, listen, then, Mr. Investigator here, how would the FBI

know that? Look, and how would investigators know? The police chief has now taken a leave of absence amid the investigation to the department's handling of this domestic violence episode between Petito and Laundrie. And we now know that the police knew that Brian had been reported as an aggressor.

Let's listen to this and then we'll follow up.

(BEGIN VOICE CLIP)

UNKNOWN: But the female who got hit, they both, the male and the female, both got into the van and headed north. R.P. states between a male, hit a female, domestic. He got into a white Ford Transit van. Has a black ladder on the back, Florida plate of Quebec Fox Tango Golf 0-3. The van turned right on Main Street from Moonflower market and headed north onto Main Street.

(END VOICE CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Look, there is a lot there. I know it's a big question. Because you got, you know, what the family is doing in Florida and how -- I don't understand how investigators in Florida let this happen, him become missing and get away and then you have Moab there.

Despite this 911 call that a witness had seen Brian hit Gabby, this incident was just categorized as a mental and emotional health break rather than a domestic assault. Was that enough to remove Petito from a potentially dangerous situation? Was enough done there?

MCCABE: Well, that's a really good question, Don. And there is some that are, I think there's a -- there's a reasonable view that under Utah law they should have done more, whether that's simply issuing citations to the both of them for being involved in a kind of mutual domestic event or actually bringing people in and arresting them. That's a question that they'll have to answer.

But what I think is really interesting for the investigators here trying to find Brian is watching that video. You see how adept Brian is at really manipulating the officers to believe that he was not the aggressor in that interaction.

By the time they send them on their way, it seems like their view of it is she hit Brian, that he had some indication of that on his hands or arms or what have you and that she was the aggressor and that he was trying to diffuse the whole situation. And I think that's largely a result of his effective kind of manipulative communications with him.

So that's what you're dealing with if you're out there looking for Brian Laundrie. Right now, you're looking for a pretty smart, pretty savvy, pretty manipulative guy and you've got to factor that into your understanding of who you're looking for.

LEMON: All right. Thank you, both. I appreciate it. It's not a COVID cure but for some reason, people keep taking it and

now take this. New Mexico is reporting at least two deaths tied to Ivermectin. Stay with us.

[22:50:00]

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LEMON (on camera): Please pay attention, people, and spread this. Yes. Just put it everywhere so people see it. Take it. Two pandemics are killing people. Coronavirus and misinformation. New Mexico says that two people have died after using a drug that has been wrongly touted as a COVID treatment.

Are you listening everybody out there? Ivermectin is an anti-parasitic drug used most often in livestock. It is not a COVID treatment. The liberal media watchdog group Media Matters is reporting that there are 60 Facebook groups dedicated to Ivermectin with tens of thousands of members. More than two dozen of which have shut down for posts like this.

And I quote, "Ivermectin is clearly the answer to solve COVID and the world is waking up to the truth." It's not. Don't believe that. But Facebook isn't the only place where the Ivermectin curiosity has been spreading.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX NEWS HOST: You have hydroxychloroquine, which of course got political and totally maligned, Ivermectin, vitamin D, zinc. All of it. It's good to take.

RACHEL CAMPOS-DUFFY, CO-HOST, FOX NEWS: I don't know how many, 100,000 lives might have been saved if they let the public and doctors talk about hydroxychloroquine and Ivermectin and prescribe it without being called by a pharmacist as if they are doing something illegal.

[22:55:04]

They seem just keep saying like the vaccination is the only answer.

TUCKER CARLSON, FOX NEWS HOST: The media hate this. They call Ivermectin a horse medication. Pharmacies in some places are refusing to fill the drug. Why?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): I mean, people actually sit there and they watch that all day long. No one hates Ivermectin. That would be bizarre. You hate Ivermectin? I mean, it's misinformation that is the problem. Like what is all over the Fox propaganda airwaves?

Health officials warn that while Ivermectin can be prescribed for humans, it is not a cure for the coronavirus. In Texas calls to poison control about Ivermectin exposure have more than tripled in the last year. So why are people buying in to these get sick quick schemes? Especially when we have vaccines that are free and effective?

Well, tonight roughly seven million eligible Americans are still not vaccinated. And the rate of a new -- of new vaccinations is as low as it's been since the CDC began tracking. So please, we know what we need to do to keep people safe. Doctors aren't hiding it from you. In fact, they are begging you. Get vaccinated.

Next, patience wearing thin and anxiety is growing. Democrats worried that their entire agenda is about to collapse. Stay with us.

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