Return to Transcripts main page
Don Lemon Tonight
Donald Trump Tried To Use DOJ; Trump Aides Refuse To Comply Subpoena; Rep. Pramila Jayapal (D-WA) Was Interviewed About What's Happening In The Country Right Now; Billy Bush Took Time To Recover From Access Hollywood Aftermath; GOP Sticks With Trump. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired October 07, 2021 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST (on camera): Thank you for watching. DON LEMON TONIGHT with the big star D. Lemon taking on the big news of the day about what the Trump people will do to keep the big lie alive.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: To keep it alive. And look, I'm going to start, though, at least the beginning of my show with the anniversary. Do you know what these five years ago tonight was?
CUOMO: What happened five years ago tonight?
LEMON: Five years ago, tonight everybody thought it was over. Let me go back. Five years ago, tonight is when we can say nothing really started to matter. You know that old saying, nothing matters anymore?
CUOMO: You really think the tape resonated that much?
LEMON: My gosh. If you -- for what happened, we're talking about the infamous Access Hollywood tape. Yes, five years ago tonight. Everyone -- I was sitting -- I was the person on the air saying we're waiting on a response, we're waiting on a response, we got the thing from the president or whatever. Here's the Access Hollywood tape. We're waiting for -- not the president, for Donald Trump. He was a candidate then, to respond, to respond, to respond.
We were on air all night, waited, and then that hostage video came out, looks like he shot it in the back room at Mar-a-Lago or something, or at Trump tower. And everyone -- I mean, even his own people, many of the people who were hugging and embracing him now, came on this very show saying I can't support the man. I don't see how he could do this, how he could brag -- I have children, I have daughters, I have all these things. And then lo and behold, that's when --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Do you know who didn't say it? Angry, disaffected, frustrated and scared white people all over the country who said all politicians are bums. He's no different than the rest of them except at least he'll fight for me, he gets it.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: And that's what we didn't weigh at the time.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: The media, you know, took its scalps and made its points. But they didn't put a scratch on the Teflon don.
LEMON: Yes. How'd that work out for them? Just saying.
CUOMO: How'd it worked out for him? I mean, this guy is the most --
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: -- judgment proof -- that rebuttal report from the Senate judiciary, the minority members of the Republicans, --
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: -- the president pro tempore emeritus Grassley who said after January 6th that he asked Pence, Trump asked Pence to do things that are unconstitutional, that rebuttal report is one of the most embarrassing documents I've ever seen in the public space.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: It is worse than a disservice to justice. It is proof positive of service to the big lie and Trump. All they had to do was put out one piece of paper that said look, he is too powerful and unless he comes and attacks all of our mamas, we're going to have to let him have his way.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: That's what that rebuttal says. That's the story.
LEMON: Yes. Well, I mean, look, they are -- to say that it's the worst out of all the things that have happened, you look at the damning -- the Mueller report that was really damning. Then you had the attorney general of the United States, right, changing the narrative about that?
Then you had the Ukraine phone call. And then you had the, you know, trying to overturn the election, and so many, many other things. To say that's the worst -- worst -- it's a lie.
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Just --
LEMON: They're saying a lie.
CUOMO: This rebuttal is not the worst. I'm saying it's the worst document -- LEMON: It's the worst document. Yes.
CUOMO: -- of its kind I've ever looked at because what they're saying is all those things, Don, they're all in the same bucket, he never succeeded at any of them.
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: He didn't get Ukraine to put out dirt on Biden. He didn't get Russia to find more stuff on these guys. None of it worked. So, what are you upset about? Why, you know?
LEMON: Just because it didn't work? OK, fine.
CUOMO: Yes, yes. You know?
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Well, say that -- say that to Nixon.
CUOMO: Is that a crime? Is there something as an attempted crime?
LEMON: No one said that about Nixon or, you know --
(CROSSTALK)
CUOMO: Nixon didn't have the juice within had party --
LEMON: Yes.
CUOMO: -- that this guy does.
LEMON: I've got a lot of news. I shall see you.
CUOMO: You shall make your witness and I will watch because I love you, D. Lemon.
LEMON: Thank you, brother. More than you know. Thank you, sir. I'll see you later.
This is DON LEMON TONIGHT. And this is a very busy news night. I said a lot of developments, big multiple stories. But do you guys remember the fire storm over this?
(BEGIN VOCIE CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF America: You know, I'm automatically attracted to beautiful -- I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. Just kiss. I don't even wait. And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything.
UNKNOWN: Whatever you want.
TRUMP: Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything.
(END VOICE CLIP) LEMON (on camera): Right? Still shocking after all these years. Of
course, you remember that. That's the infamous Access Hollywood tape. It was released five years ago tonight. And a lot of people expected that that moment would cost him the presidency.
[22:05:02]
Look, that's us on the air in 2016, October 7th. All night trying to figure out what happened. And everybody's face, look how serious everyone was. They thought it was the end of the Trump candidacy. Well, we all know how that ended up. Billy Bush got fired. America got a president who bragged about sexually assaulting women.
And tonight, Billy Bush's message about how he lost his job, nearly lost his career, almost couldn't get another job, and nearly lost his sanity as well. Now, you want to talk about cancel culture? That's it right there.
And there is news tonight on the Gabby Petito case to tell you about. Police telling CNN that they were surveilling her fiance Brian Laundrie before he disappeared but there was no crime at the time and Gabby's body had not been found, so they were limited in what they could do.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSH TAYLOR, PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICER, NORTH PORT POLICE: I mean, the guy goes for a walk in the Carlton Reserve. He's not wanted for a crime. I mean, what are we -- what are we supposed to do? We're going to go tree to tree? Tree to tree following him back through the woods? I mean, you know, it just wasn't there with the information we had in this case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Yes, well, some people would say Yes. Follow him. Can't find him now. So maybe you could. That's just me. Anyway, so authorities also say that they never spoke with Laundrie before he went missing. A lot more to talk about -- talk about on that -- to come on that front, and on why Brian Laundrie's father was out with police in that Florida reserve today. They need a major break in this case. Are they close to it? We'll see.
But there's also something I want to talk to you about that every single American needs to hear. OK? And I want you to listen right now because this is really important.
There's a clear and present danger to our democracy tonight, right now. We're in very real danger of losing our democracy. We're learning tonight just how close we came to that and how close we are right now. The former -- the former guy attempted a coup. He tried to strong-arm the Justice Department into helping him and he is still at it today, trying to sow doubt about the election that he lost.
Now, I want you to think about this, nine times. Nine times the then president tried to get the DOJ to undermine the result of our free and fair election. You know, the one Joe Biden won with more than 81 million votes? The one the former guy lost. He and his allies tried to pull off a coup. And now the Senate has the receipts.
Democrats on the judiciary committee finding the then president directly asked the Justice Department nine times to undermine the election result, beginning in mid-December and continuing through January 3rd, just three days before the violent insurrection at the capitol. He tried to replace the then acting attorney general because he wouldn't play along.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): His own counsel, Pat Cipollone, basically said it was a murder-suicide pact that he was considering and that there were going to be resignations all across the country if he did anything this radical.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): And the GOP, well, they say hey, it didn't work so, you know, it's all good, didn't work. Republican Senator Chuck Grassley's office issuing a GOP rebuttal, calling the former president's outrageous actions not unreasonable.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHUCK GRASSLEY, PRESIDENT PRO TEMPORE, UNITED STATES SENATE: The president rejected it. The president did the right thing. How does that create any sort of problem?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Shocking update for you right now. Not coincidentally, not at all. Senator Grassley is set to join the former president at a rally in Iowa this Saturday. Yes. Like I said, not in the past, still going on right now.
An attorney for the former president instructing some of his former aides not to comply with subpoenas from the January 6th committee. They have until midnight. That is according to the Washington Post. the committee still looking for Trump's former communications guy, Dan Scavino to physically serve him with a subpoena. They want to find out what he knows about videos like this one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Go home. We love you. You're very special. You've seen what happens. You see the way others are treated that are so bad and so evil. I know how you feel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): We love you. We love you. The committee firing off a new round of subpoenas tonight focusing on the stop the steal group and its involvement in the planning of the rally before the insurrection at the capitol. That as CNN has reviewed more than 2,000 pages of court records
showing Rudy Giuliani and company, what they did -- that they did next to nothing to actually check out their bogus claims of non-existent election fraud.
[22:10:01]
Debunked claims of election rigging and ties to antifa, put in front of a national audience during his clown show of conspiracy theories and lies while apparently mopping hair dye off of his face.
And then there's today's hearing on the Arizona fraudit. Just more evidence that all of this is about planting the seeds of doubt, and it's happening right now, right under our noses.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ANDY BIGGS (R-AZ): Biden is --
(CROSSTALK)
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): My question, Mr. Biggs. I'm happy to yield to you for that. Who won the election in Arizona, Donald Trump --
BIGGS: We don't know. Because as the audit demonstrates very clearly, Mr. Raskin, there are a lot of issues with this election that took place.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): We don't know? Bro. We don't know. Joe Biden in the fraudit got more votes. That was the fraudit results. Just last week the former president claimed the fraudit proved that he won. Exactly the opposite of what it proved. He lost.
I mean, think about what happens if the GOP wins in the midterms. That's the end of congressional hearings of the big lie. the end of any real efforts to stop the nationwide assault on the right to vote. Did you hear me? Maybe you're not paying attention now.
Maybe you didn't hear me. Call your friends, text them. Or social media, whatever it is. Jump in their DMs and tell them. You'd better pay attention because the threat is very real, the GOP still kowtowing to a disgraced twice-impeached one-term ex-president.
Nikki Haley telling the Wall Street Journal they need him in the GOP. Mike Pence trying to blame the media for the attack by violent rioters, Trump supporters, who said they wanted to hang him, an attack that forced him to run for his life with his family.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CROWD: Hang Mike Pence! Hang Mike Pence! Hang Mike Pence! Hang Mike Pence!
(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON (on camera): So, remember what happened on January 6th. OK? Even Trump loyalists saw how dangerous it was. Lindsey Graham saw it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I know the media wants to distract from the Biden administration's failed agenda by focusing on one day in January. They want to use that one day to try and demean the character and intentions of 74 million Americans who were --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Well, obviously, that was the former vice president saying that January 6th was no big deal. But here is Lindsey Graham now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Trump and I, we've had a hell of a journey. I hate it to end this way. My god, I hate it. From my point of view, he's been a consequential president. But today, first thing you'll see. All I can say is count me out. Enough is enough.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Kevin McCarthy saw it as well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: The president bears responsibility for Wednesday's attack on Congress by mob rioters. He should have immediately denounced the mob when he saw what was unfolding.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Mitch McConnell saw it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), MINORITY LEADER: There's no question. None. That President Trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of the day. No question about it. The people who stormed this building believed they were acting on the wishes and instructions of their president. And having that belief was a foreseeable consequence of the growing crescendo of false statements, conspiracy theories, and reckless hyperbole which the defeated president kept shouting into the largest megaphone on planet earth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Wow. It's almost like, that night he took truth serum. Right? All of them. And where are they now? Where are they now? The big lie is all about laying the groundwork for the next time. That's why I say pay attention because make no mistake, the threat is gathering again.
We didn't really know until all these reports started coming out. And there are going to be more. Didn't know how close we came then. But we'd better open our eyes and see how close we are now. Look at what's happening around the country with all the election laws restricting the rights for people of color. Wake up, America. Pay attention.
[22:15:05]
Now we have four members of team Trump dodging subpoenas with time running out to the midnight deadline. What we know about why they're keeping everything under wraps.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DURBIN: I would suggest modestly follow the law instead of the ravings of this former president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): The former president's lawyer telling four of his top aides not to comply with subpoenas from the January 6th select committee. That's according to the Washington Post. the deadline is just over an hour away. And as of now there's no indication that anyone has complied.
Joining me now is Robert Costa. He is the co-author of the new bombshell book "Peril" along with Bob Woodward, and CNN's senior legal analyst, Laura Coates.
Good evening. Good to see you, Laura. Robert, look who we have on. Thank you very much. It is been a long time. Good to see you. Thanks for appearing.
I'm going to start with you since you are not as frequent a guest as Laura on the program. So, these four Trump aides who appear to be defying their subpoenas were intimately involved with President Trump in the days leading up to the insurrection.
[22:19:59]
You've done extensive reporting on this. In fact, your book "Peril" is cited in several of these subpoenas. What do these guys know that they don't want to share here?
ROBERT COSTA, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: Don, great to be back with you tonight.
Defiance on the Trump side is an important crossroads in this story, and the question now is going to be posed to congressional Democrats, will they pursue contempt civilly or criminally against these four allies of President Trump?
Because what we see in our reporting for the book "Peril" and from the January 6th committee is there are so many questions about what people around President Trump were doing in this sprawling interconnected pressure campaign to overthrow an election, to throw it to the House and re-elect President Trump.
Steve Bannon, Mark Meadows, Dan Scavino, Kash Patel. It's not just about the day of the insurrection. It's about the days prior. All of the different pressure points. That's what this committee clearly wants to find out. Because those are the scenes they reference from our book.
LEMON: Yes. Laura, you're shaking your head in agreement here. I'm wondering this, you know, the stalling tactic that they're doing. So, you know, the select committee can't get there, can't serve them and they're just not complying. Is there any way to expedite this through the courts?
LAURA COATES, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, the idea of being able to have, unlike last time when they had the blueprint of how to thumb your nose at a congressional subpoena through protracted litigation, they had the benefit of having a Department of Justice led by a Trump appointee, several Trump appointees, by the way.
Now you have a Justice Department that's already talked about not wanting to assert executive privilege, an administration, a president who said they're not going to be likely to other than a case by case basis extend any privilege that's not owed to a former president.
And now you have the idea of courts having already seen a preview in the prior instances of attempting to evade a congressional subpoena, now being read up on the issue so to speak. You know, two years ago, we were really in the wild, wild west of legal novelty. Now you have judges all across the country who are read into the issue and can do it on a more expedited basis. But it's going to take not only congress acting in terms of contempt perhaps but also maybe the Department of Justice as well.
Looking into these as a way of looking at the criminal conduct that might be at stake here and setting a clear precedent for the future of whether somebody can continue to thumb their nose at a congressional subpoena. Because if they can do it, what's to stop the average person from saying, well, why must I respect it?
LEMON: Right. Right on. Robert, you know, there's also this new Senate judiciary report that found that Trump directly asked the Justice Department to overturn the election nine times. And you've been reporting about Trump's relentless pressure campaign. What can you tell us about these conversations? What do you know?
COSTA: As Bob Woodward and I reported this out, we really had to step back. Because we realized that this is not just good the pressure on Vice President Pence or the pressure on Attorney General Barr or the pressure then on the acting attorney general or the pressure on the Republicans on Capitol Hill to somehow buy into this decertification of Biden.
This was all one bigger story driven by the man at the top, the President of the United States, and this was a campaign that this an actual memo, a six-point memo. CNN has done terrific reporting on this from John Eastman to really make sure it was followed through.
And so, you see in this report, even more evidence of the president's fingerprints on pressure on the Department of Justice, which is supposed to be the independent law enforcement operation in this country. And it is a Department of Justice that found no fraud during this transition period. But despite that Trump just kept pushing.
LEMON: Laura, according to the Senate report here, this is on January 3rd, the then president said to the acting attorney general, Jeffrey Rosen, quote, "one thing we know is you, Rosen, aren't going to do anything to overturn the election." And then he threatened to fire Rosen. I mean, it wasn't even subtle. Could there be criminal charges here?
COATES: There should be an exploration of them. I mean, remember, as you're talking about, as Bob was speaking, this is supposed to be an apolitical entity. Of course, he would do nothing to overturn an election that was fair and free and not violative of any laws. Of course, he should not be putting his thumb on the scale.
Of course, he should not be helping to metastasize a big lie in which the own attorneys under Trump as a candidate seeking re-election could not validate or verify or provide any information in a court of law. And Attorney General Barr, his predecessor, also confirmed, there was no instance of widespread voter fraud.
So, there's no reason to say overturn this election in any way. You have not only the idea of interfering possibly with an election, which is violative of federal law, but also the idea of trying to coerce political activity, which is very clear under the federal codes, you cannot try to force somebody or coerce somebody through intimidation, force or otherwise to try to engage in political activity on behalf of a candidate.
[22:25:07]
That being even an incumbent and former president. So you have a whole series of, lies that can be violated here which is why the Department of Justice needs to take a very clear look at what's included in that report and the independent investigation, which is why they should have a very symbiotic relationship at this point in time to try to get people who know more information to round out a criminal investigation.
LEMON: Yes. Jeffrey Clark was the top lawyer in the DOJ that was trying to help Trump overturn the election. Just quickly, Laura, do you think he's going to be held accountable?
COATES: Who? All of them? Hopefully.
LEMON: Yes.
COATES: If it's Donald Trump, if it's Jeffrey Clark, if it's any other person we have yet to know and find out about it, who tried to interfere with our democracy, they should all be held to account. Otherwise it's not a republic because we can't keep it one.
LEMON: As your book shows, Robert, this is not ancient history. How concerned should the country be right now that this could happen again, the future of our democracy?
COSTA: Well, as reporters we have our notebook and pen in hand and our recorders when we go to try to find the facts. Congress has subpoena power. We don't have that as reporters. That's the real key as investigators. But if their subpoenas are effectively meaningless and disregarded there's a bigger question being raised here. What is the power of Congress if a former president and his allies can effectively ignore it?
LEMON: Yes. Robert, Laura, thank you both. I appreciate it.
Five years ago, tonight the Access Hollywood tape was released. A lot of people thought it would derail Trump's campaign for the White House. It did not. But it did cost Billy Bush's job. And he's talking about it tonight.
Also, ahead, Democrats jostling over the price tag for President Biden's domestic agenda. The president saying getting some of them in the same room would be almost like homicide.
Progressive caucus chair Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal is here. Wow. I have a lot I want to talk to you about, Congresswoman. I'll see you on the other side of the break.
[22:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): The Senate clearing the way to extend the nation's debt ceiling through early December, averting a potential economic crisis. Well, at least for now.
Meanwhile, Democrats are in a stalemate over President Biden's agenda with no deal in sight on the massive spending bill.
Joining me now is Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal. She is the chair of the House progressive caucus. Good evening. I'm so glad to have you on.
We're going to talk about what's happening, you know, with infrastructure and all that but I just want to get where we are now, the peril in our country, the people who are defying subpoenas, refusing to cooperate with investigations, the horrible things that Trump is saying, the lies that he and his acolytes are spreading. What's going on? Where are we?
REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL (D-WA): Don, first of all, it's great to be with you. Look, I think that the way you've described it is absolutely accurate. This is a fragile moment for our democracy. I sit on the judiciary committee. I was there during the first, you know, set of impeachment hearings that we did on the judiciary committee, and I have just watched everything unfold including right from the balcony on January 6th.
Those were not tourists. Those were insurrectionists. And we still have people that deny that January 6th happened. We still have colleagues who are denying that Joe Biden is actually the legitimate president.
And of course, the fraudits, everything that you're covering, shows us how deeply disturbed we are as a country, how fragile our democracy is. And if these subpoenas are ignored -- now, at least we don't have a Justice Department that's backing those folks up.
But if they're ignored, obviously that turns into a long legal protracted process, and this country needs resolution and accountability for what happened on January 6th and during the last four years, you know, and in the leadup to the election if we are to be able to move forward.
LEMON: Yes. And then you have the former vice president, whose family had to be whisked out. They were saying they were going to hang him. There was even a gallows that was erected out on the capitol grounds and -- on the mall. And he's saying OK, that wasn't a big deal. So again, very perilous time and people are trying to downplay what happened. Just deny what happened.
Let's talk about what's in front of us right now. You've made it very clear who you find responsible for the stalemate in Washington right now. And CNN reports that President Biden told lawmakers that he has spent many hours with Senators Manchin and Sinema and said, quote, "they don't move." So if they won't move or they don't move for him, the president, what's supposed to happen?
JAYAPAL: Well, Don, you know, in my conversations with the White House I hear that Senators Manchin and Sinema are sitting down, are negotiating, are talking about what they are for, not just what they're against. And we have to believe that they are going to move, that the president is going to be able to move them, because remember, Don, this is the president's agenda.
This is the agenda that Democrats in the House, the Senate, and the White House, the president ran on. And it's why voters came out in states including Arizona and Georgia and across the country, because Democrats said we are not going to leave people behind. We are going to help working class people across this country, poor people across this country, black, brown, indigenous people across this country to be able to have a shot.
[22:35:05]
That's what the Build Back Better Act is. It's child care where no family has to pay more than 7 percent in their income for child care. It's paid leave. Twelve weeks of paid family leave, Don. We'd finally be catching up to other countries.
It's taking on the climate crisis with real action. It's making sure that we're investing in housing across our country, which is so essential. And of course, expanding Medicare and giving benefits to seniors and making sure that health care is available in the middle of a crisis and lifting up immigrants.
I mean, that's all in the Build Back Better agenda. And the idea that two people might not want to do all of that and might be blocking what we promised is obviously -- you know, it's a problem. But I don't believe that's going to happen. I do believe the negotiations are moving forward. I think we're going to get it done.
LEMON: OK. So again, what needs to be done to meet that 1.9 to $2.2 trillion budget the president has floated? Is that number something that you are even willing to consider?
JAYAPAL: Well, as I said to the president just a couple of days ago, I am really hoping that it can stay much closer to 3 trillion. Just remember, Don, we are spending $750 billion a year on Pentagon spending and even if we spent the full 3.5 trillion that's over 10 years.
LEMON: Over 10 years. Right.
JAYAPAL: And it's like a very small percentage of GDP every year. But also, it's all paid for by taxes on the wealthiest individuals and corporations paying their fair share.
So, I understand that people are saying it's a big amount. It is a big amount but not relative to other things that we spend on and not relative to the cost of inaction. All of that said, Don, we're negotiating. We're trying to keep it as close as we can to that number. I told the president I thought 1.9 to 2.2 was too low. He understood that.
We're just seeing how -- you know, where we can get to and what we can agree on because at the end of the day we've got to get 50 votes in the Senate, we've got to get all the Democrats in the House.
LEMON: So, you said you think you're going to get it done. Let's hope so. Thank you very much. Congresswoman, I appreciate it.
JAYAPAL: Thank you, Don.
LEMON: I'll see you soon. Be well.
So five years since the release of the infamous Access Hollywood tape. Can you believe it? Billy Bush addressing the fallout of that tape tonight, calling it the worst day of his life.
[22:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): So tonight, marks five years since the release of the infamous Access Hollywood tape. You remember.
(BEGIN VOICE CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Sheesh, your girl is hot as shit. In the purple.
UNKNOWN: Whoa. Yes. Whoa.
UNKNOWN: Yes! The Donald has scored. Whoa, my man.
TRUMP: I better use some Tic Tacs, just in case I start kissing her. You know, I'm automatically attracted to beautiful. I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. I just kiss. I don't even wait. And when you're a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.
UNKNOWN: Whatever you want.
TRUMP: Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything.
(END VOICE CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): So, and what happened after that? Well, one of the men you heard there lost his job. The other went on to become the President of the United States. Tonight, Billy Bush posting on Instagram saying, today is the five-year anniversary of the worst day of my life. The family that raised me professionally sacrificed me in an instant for their own political gain. Let's be real. Ultimately, they lost because he somehow won. I barely survived the cascade of anxiety and despair.
So, joining me now -- and he goes on. You should go on and look at, it's on Instagram.
Let's discuss now with CNN media correspondent Brian Stelter, and CNN political commentator Ana Navarro both join me. Hello to you.
Ana -- good evening, everyone. So, Ana, a lot of people thought that this was the worst day for Trump and his campaign. Remember, we were on the air wondering all right, when is this apology tape going to be released? What are they going to say?
They predicted a huge downfall for him. That obviously did not happen. And now Billy Bush is suggesting NBC lost because Trump won. What do you think of this?
ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, it brought me back to where I was. And I think everybody who was following this campaign and following this campaign and following the politics remembers where they were when this Access Hollywood tape was released. I was on a plane from Washington to Miami and I must have had good Wi-Fi because I remember all the pinging going on on the phones and the iPads on the plane.
Everybody on the plane, they were all Politicos there thinking it's over. I remember Trump was going to Wisconsin a couple of days later. And the big wigs, the Republican big wigs in Wisconsin decided not to show up to the event. I remember Mike Pence and mother being so upset they wouldn't speak to Trump for days.
And then the party of Christian values, the party of family values elected him one month later and totally forgot about it. In the meantime, Billy Bush has paid the consequences for five years. And look, you know, his role was to be a sophomoric guy on a bus. But he's not the guy that was boasting of sexual assault.
LEMON: You know, Brian, Bush exited NBC within 10 days of that tape coming out.
BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
LEMON: He'd just started as the Today show's 9 a.m. hour host. He says that NBC sacrificed him. Listen, what does this say about what was happening behind the scenes at NBC?
STELTER: Yes.
LEMON: Because wasn't that ultimately their tape as well? How did that tape get out?
STELTER: It was NBC's tape.
LEMON: Interesting.
STELTER: It was. And Bush is going to closer than he ever has before to saying he was fired, he was canceled. You know, five years ago we didn't even have that phrase cancel culture the way everybody knows it today.
[22:45:00]
But Billy Bush is an example of leadership, in this case NBC, at an institution that decided to cancel someone just to get over the bad press. Just to avoid the bad press. And now I think five years later we can view this in a very different way. And say that was an injustice. You know, the way Billy Bush was treated.
That there was an attempt to get a short-term gain, just like get rid of him, but a long-term damage that was done as a result. It took years for Billy Bush to find work again. And now he's the host of Extra. He says on Instagram tonight, I have a plan to use this experience to help heal the culture. And I'm really curious what he means by that. With the five years that we've had since.
But in the meantime. I think when we look back at that night five years ago, Don, we can see even more clearly what an injustice this was and what an upside-down world this was, that Billy Bush was the one that suffered from all of this and Donald Trump benefited.
And it reminds me that those of us in the media, we do need to work to call out indecency. Indecency is not partisan. It's not left or right. It's about right versus wrong. And five years from now, you know, I hope we're not having these same conversations. I hope we've made progress as a society so we're not having the same conversations over and over again.
LEMON: Well, listen, let me just say this. I think if you ask Billy Bush he will say -- I think he would agree that it isn't -- I think he believes that maybe he should have been disciplined.
STELTER: Yes, he screwed up that day. LEMON: He screwed up. Something.
STELTER: Yes.
LEMON: But being fired and then after that people not wanting to hire him --
STELTER: Right.
LEMON: -- because of that. I mean, was that fair to Billy Bush when you look at the overall big picture and --
(CROSSTALK)
STELTER: I think that's what's evolved in this kind of conversation about cancel culture, --
LEMON: Yes.
STELTER: -- so to speak, that your worst moment does not define you as a human being.
LEMON: Yes.
STELTER: However, when it's part of a pattern, and that's what we learned about Donald Trump, part of a pattern, then it is something to take seriously.
LEMON: Yes.
NAVARRO: But you know what, Brian? I hate the term cancel culture.
STELTER: Yes, Yes.
NAVARRO: You know, we use over and over again because it's a term that doesn't allow for nuance. OK. Canceling Harvey Weinstein for what he did or Charlie Rose or Mark Halperin is very different than penalizing somebody like Billy Bush for saying something stupid and being at the wrong place at the wrong time and being the one who carried the blame so NBC could somehow continue going along.
You know, I don't like that term, cancel culture. Sometimes it's not canceling. Sometimes it's consequence culture. Sometimes it's accountability culture. Sometimes it's responsibility culture. And I do think that as we look at it in hindsight what happened to Billy Bush was too much and it was not -- and even more so when you put it in perspective to what happened to Donald Trump, --
LEMON: Yes.
NAVARRO: -- which was absolutely nothing.
LEMON: Yes. Ana, that video -- the night that video came out you were certainly fired up on this show. Let's play it.
NAVARRO: Lord. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NAVARRO: Every single Republican is going to have to answer the question, what did you do the day you saw the tape? Of this man boasting about grabbing a woman's (muted).
UNKNOWN: Exactly.
NAVARRO: Period.
LEMON: OK. All right.
UNKNOWN: Can you please stop saying that word? My daughter is listening.
(CROSSTALK)
NAVARRO: You know what? Don't tell me you're offended when I say (muted) but you're not offended when Donald Trump says it.
UNKNOWN: Exactly.
UNKNOWN: I am (Inaudible) when you are saying that word over and over on this.
NAVARRO: I'm not running for president. He is.
UNKNOWN: Yes. And I said (Inaudible) about Donald Trump.
NAVARRO: OK. So then do not outraged and offended when I say --
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: The man did disgrace --
NAVARRO: -- it when you're not offended when the man who you are supporting is saying.
UNKNOWN: I said I was --
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: Wow, Ana, you have been consistent then, even in 2016. You're consistent now. Yet here we are in 2021 with the GOP still putting all this stock in Trump, still making excuses for him, even for the violent insurrection. The former vice president, who the insurrectionists were saying they were going to hang him, the reaction there. I mean, that was sort of as a precursor for what was to come.
NAVARRO: Yes, I mean, listen, first of all thank you for putting that video on because I think I look really cute. I need to lose a lot of weight.
LEMON: Same here. Both of us.
NAVARRO: But I think it was -- I really do think it was a harbor of things to come. Right? We have seen since five years of hypocrisy from Republicans, willing to justify and defend anything as long as they can stay near power and they can be part of the circle of power.
So we have seen people that call themselves Christian including people like Mike Pence clutch their pearls when I quote the president of the United States about something and, you know, beat their chest about being faithful Catholics or faithful Christians or faithful whatever, and yet go and defend somebody that has consistently shown such lack of morality and having absolutely no conscience or principles and certainly no values.
LEMON: Yes.
[22:49:53]
NAVARRO: And you know, and it was -- but you know, this came after he mocked a reporter with a disability. This came after he called John McCain a loser for being captured and said he didn't like POWs and people who have been captured. So, this is, you know -- it was just -- but it was probably the worst, because we were hearing it on tape.
The guy wanting to be leader of the free world boasting of sexual assault. But, Don, let me just say one thing before we end. I think what's really -- something that we should also highlight is that I think it changed and influenced the Me Too movement.
STELTER: Yes.
NAVARRO: I think Donald Trump's election was the catalyst to get women to speak up and stand locking arms behind each other, and that has brought accountability to many others. Maybe Donald Trump got away with it, or he did, but many others have not because women got pissed and got active because of Donald.
LEMON: Brian, I just -- I'm up against the clock as you know. I just want to make it clear, especially you as the media reporter, no one is saying that Billy Bush didn't do anything wrong, what he did and said was wrong, but it's about balanced, it's about perspective --
(CROSSTALK)
STELTER: Proportionality.
LEMON: Proportionality. Right.
STELTER: Proportionality, that's exactly what it's about. And five years later, we can see that now more clearly than ever before.
LEMON: Thank you both, I appreciate it. We'll be right back.
NAVARRO: Thank you.
[22:55:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON (on camera): So, take this. There is trouble in the skies, people behaving so badly on airplanes that the president is now stepping in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: By the way, Scott, I want you to know I've instructed the Justice Department to make sure that we deal with the violence on aircraft coming from those people who are taking issues. We're going to deal with that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): And it is ridiculous. Something needs to be done. The Federal Aviation Administration says that last week saw 128 new incidents on planes. So far this year there have been more than 4,600 incidents, like this September JetBlue flight when this happened after an airline says that two people refused to wear masks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Come on!
UNKNOWN: How dare he.
UNKNOWN: Be civil.
(CROSSTALK)
UNKNOWN: You gave me one (muted) warning, one warning, that's it. You gave me one (muted) warning. I pulled it off the second he said something, the second he said something I pulled it off my nose.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Everybody so is angry. Everybody has a chip. You made me do it, it's your fault, so many of the incidents sparked by people who can't seem to handle wearing a mask for a few hours on the plane. And we know people are mad after more than a year of this pandemic.
We have seen it on planes, we've seen it at school board, school board meetings, and at restaurants. But if we all just get vaccinated, wear a mask when necessary, have the patience with each other that we should, we'll all be back to normal a lot sooner.
The Washington Post has some reporting --
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
