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Don Lemon Tonight

Assistant Director's History Of Negligence; Facebook Capitalized On The Hate And Division; Someone Must Be Held Accountable For Hutchins' Death; Rep. Tim Ryan (D-OH) Was Interviewed About President Biden's Agenda; New York Bracing For Bad Weather. Aired 10- 11p ET

Aired October 25, 2021 - 22:00   ET



CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST (on camera): But there has to be a balance of rights and responsibilities. This is an illegal question. You know you can. It's about how you do it. We can do better, enough on the problem. What is the fix?

Thank you for watching. DON LEMON TONIGHT with the big star D. Lemon, right now.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Yes, what is the fix? I don't think the fix is Facebook regulating itself, right? It has been -- it has shown itself incapable of doing that thus far from all of the criticism, all of the misinformation, and or disinformation that came during the last campaign and the one before that.

So, what is the fix? I think the fixe is going to have to be some sort of regulation, and I'm not talking about censorship. Most companies, most entities, most institutions have some degree of regulation on them. Why should Facebook or any other social media company be any different, Chris Cuomo?

CUOMO: I don't think it should. Like I said, you know, they say -- well, you know, this is if you build, they will come. It's just a platform. And it took a while for people to catch up with that because the word platform is new to us. But if you think of them as the stadium, now it all becomes very clear. Well, the stadium, they don't control the game, but they control the venue. And there are rules, and they indeed have rules. My biggest concern --


LEMON: They can keep people out. They can decide who want to come in?

CUOMO: Obviously.

LEMON: They can tell people how they dress?


CUOMO: That's exactly right.

LEMON: They need to tell people where to sit --


CUOMO: That's exactly where they can. Now my concern is -- how do you enforce it, Don? I think that you'll get lost, I don't think that the right fringe, they just want to censor us. The data is too obvious. They kill it on social media, the right fringe, they get the most traction, they have the most sights with the most views, they're not being censored.

But the idea of how you do it? They've had enough hard time with securities and because they don't understand the trading, it's a level of sophistication. Who's going to do the monitoring of whether or not the social media companies are monitoring the way the law tells them to?

LEMON: Yes. Amen. Listen, that point of agreement I will let you go, because I got to get to the big news, the breaking news that's coming out of the story from Hollywood. You know who we're talking about.

CUOMO: I love you, D. Lemon.

LEMON: I love you as well. I'll talk to you soon.


So, this is our breaking news we have on the investigation of that tragic fatal shooting an Alec Baldwin's movie set last week. There is new information coming out now that obviously killed the cinematographer Halyna Hutchins, injured the director Joel Souza.

Production of the movie "Rust" is on hold, on hold indefinitely. So, the assistant director who handed a prop gun to Alec Baldwin before the fatal shooting was previously fired from a movie after a gun incident injured a crew member. That is according to the production company on the 2019 film, "Freedom's Path".

And we're learning tonight that three crew members who worked alongside that assistant director, his name is David Halls, on an earlier movie, detailing what they called unsafe conditions before Halls was fired from the project.

So, let's get right to it, people who can give us information on this. And that is CNN correspondent Josh Campbell who is in New Mexico now. Sharon Waxman as well, Sharon is the founder and the CEO of The Wrap.

Sharon, I'm very interested in your information as well. Let's get through this. Josh, you first.

Good evening to both of you.

There are safety concerns on that set even before this fatal shooting, with at least two accidental prop gun discharges on set last week. What do we know about those? Was an investigation done? Safety protocols looked into anything, tell us. JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes, well that being

reported by our colleagues at the Los Angeles Times. That incident happened on October 16th, with those two accidental discharges. And the more we learn about this movie set, Don, the more we are learning that it was plagued apparently by safety issues.

As you mentioned, employees themselves expressing their concern in any incident, investigators will always look back, and what we are hearing is that there seems to be several issues at play here. We don't yet know whether that October 16 incident actually involved live rounds or if there was an investigation that is underway.

But obviously, authorities will be looking back at that pardon in order to try to determine whether what happened here, that fatal shooting could have been prevented. Don?

LEMON: One more before I get to Sharon. And that CNN is also learning, Josh, that the assistant director or AD on the film, Dave Halls who handed Alec Baldwin the prop gun before the shooting was previously fired from a film after a gun incident injured a crew member. What can you tell us about Halls and this prior incident?

CAMPBELL: Yes, this is important. New reporting from our colleague Julia Vargas Jones back in 2019 this assistant director, the person who reportedly handed Alec Baldwin the weapon on that day here in Santa Fe was involved in another incident. And that incident was in 2019. There was an accidental discharge, an employee had recoiled from that last.


They were taken away from the set by a medic, eventually brought back. But Halls himself was dismissed and ultimately fired. Now CNN has reached out to Halls for comment, we have not yet heard a response. Of course, one key question, Don, in this fatal incident here, is what was actually inside that weapon? Was there some type of debris that was fired? Was it a live round?

I spoke with an official today at the sheriff's department who said that they are still awaiting the final corner report, which they hope will give them some insight into what type of projectile, ultimately took the life of Halyna Hutchins.

Finally, Don, very important the issue of liability, who is the person, or who are the people ultimately responsible? Is that the armorer who's responsible on the set for ensuring safety? Is it the assistant director who handed Alec Baldwin that weapon, telling him that it was safe? Or is it the responsibility of the actor himself? To ensure a safe and clear weapon.

You know a law enforcement; they always talk about the three cardinal rules of firearm safety. One, treat every weapon as if it's loaded. Two, keep the muscle in a safe direction. And three, keep your finger off the trigger unless you intend to press it.

Of course, people might say hold on, this is Hollywood. This is a movie prop gun is supposed to go off. But of course, this incident what we're learning is that even a pop gun can turn out to be very fatal. I spoke with an official at the district attorney's office today who said no new updates from them yet. Their investigation continues. We are waiting to see whether there will be any charges filed in this case, Don.

LEMON: So, Sharon, maybe you can help us up with some of this because this is your reporting at The Wrap, I understand that you have some new reporting about the gun Alec Baldwin used?

SHARON WAXMAN, FOUNDER & CEO, THE WRAP: Yes, we learned today and reported exclusively that the gun that Alec Baldwin used to tragically, accidentally shoot Halyna Hutchins had been used earlier in the day for target practice. With -- when a number of crewmembers, you know, it's a lot of downtime on set, you probably know this.

And there is this past time that crew members sometimes do what's called planking. And they go out into the rural areas and they shoot beer cans. This is live ammunition. We learned that this happened the morning of the day that Halyna Hutchins was killed in the early afternoon.

So, what happened between the time those guns came back? The live ammunition in them, and it should've been checked, obviously, and then there was some -- there has been a lot of information in the search warrants that have been filed about what happened to the guns, and that there was a break for a few minutes for lunch, and then they came back, and was the gun checked again?

Unclear before the first A.D.s called it when he said a cold gun, meaning it could not fire anything. And it was handed to Alec Baldwin, and then he discharged it.

LEMON: That was my very question, Sharon, last week, --


LEMON: -- to, I don't know if you saw the reporting to, a gun expert who has been on movie sets, as an armorer himself about. Was that a possibility since they were out in a rural area, where they are out target practicing with somebody out -- possibly trying to show the actor, you know, how to be -- actors -- more authentic, and so on.

Just so, just so our audience knows, CNN does not conform that reporting. It's from The Wrap. But when asked by The Wrap for comment, the movie's producers referred back to their previous statement --

WAXMAN: Right.

LEMON: -- and I quote here. "Though we were not made aware of any official complaints concerning weapon or prop safety on set, we will be conducting an internal review of our procedures while production is shut down." But crew members walked off the set over safety concerns just days before the shooting, am I correct, Sharon?

WAXMAN: No, the day of the shooting. LEMON: The day of the shooting.

WAXMAN: Yes, they resigned the night before. It wasn't only safety conditions. There seem to be a lot of problems on that set. People were working long hours. They were not happy with the conditions on the set, and safety conditions was one of them.

But the more we learn about what's going on in the set, the more concerning it really is. And while there is no bringing back Halyna Hutchins and Alec Baldwin has to live with what he tragically, accidentally did. There is a real concern over liability, and whether corners were cut, and whether the camera crew that walked up in the morning was replaced by non-union workers.

Where the people who were being replaced, as experienced as knowledgeable, and as careful as the people who were they were before? I know that the guilds there, I know there has been a big contract negotiation between the Hollywood unions and the producers over issues that are unrelated to this. And they are not happy to know that, you know, basically, non-union people came in, and perhaps -- and that's tragedy happened that seem --


LEMON: Hey, Sharon.

WAXMAN: So, we can't find way, find out.

LEMON: Didn't they say, didn't the production say that they didn't -- they hadn't had any official report of crew members walking off? Has that change now?

WAXMAN: All the reporting we've had since Friday has confirmed --


WAXMAN: -- and it's in the search warrant.


WAXMAN: It's in the search warrant.

LEMON: There are clips from this podcast that have come out where the armorer of the film, Hannah Gutierrez, talked about recently finishing her first job as a head armorer on the film. She says that her father, an industry vet, had bene teaching her about guns when she was 16. This is some of it, watch it.



HANNAH GUTIERREZ-REED, ARMORER: It was also my first time being head armorer as well. I was really nervous about it at first and I almost didn't take the job because I wasn't sure if it was ready, but, doing it, like, it went really smoothly. (END VOICE CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): We know Gutierrez is just 24 years old. Combine this with an A.D. who had been fired over a gun safety, I mean, that crew, veteran crew member, they're clearly important to the safety on the set. Who is responsible here?

WAXMAN: I mean, all we can hear over and over, I must have talked to a half a dozen people since Friday, saying that this should have never happened, 10 different ways that this should have never happened. And Hollywood is looking very deeply at the moment, internally, at what is it that they need to do as an industry, to make sure this never happens.

Because, you know, it is a small industry. So many people knew Halyna Hutchins and had, you know, had great love for her. She was apparently and extremely well-liked colleague in a rare female cinematographer. This is not a role that very many women get to rise up into.

And so, I think there is a very broad sense of not liability and pointing fingers, but what is it that the industry needs to do to make sure this absolutely never happens again.

LEMON: As you're saying, we're looking at pictures of her husband and her child. I mean, and her --


LEMON: -- of course, it's just sad all the way around.

Josh, take us forward. So many questions for investigators. What else are they are looking for at this point?

CAMPBELL: Well, that liability is the big question. We are waiting to see whether there will be indeed be any charges, perhaps a charge of negligence, I think most people we talk to says that -- say this appears to be an accident. But it doesn't mean that anyone who was involved in this case isn't still liable for negligence.

Then finally according to the sheriff's department, the weapon itself. What was inside the weapon? That will come from the coroner's report. We are expecting that. And no formal report yet received, but what investigators tell us is they hope with that information, they will no know was actually inside that weapon.

Of course, then that will help them eliminate other possibilities. Whether it was a live round, weather it was debris, whether it was perhaps some type of blank that shot a projectile in close range of someone? So many possibilities, which only a coroner's report, a forensic examination can help answer, Don.

LEMON: All right. Thank you, Josh. Sharon, thank you. If you get more reporting let us know. We appreciate you appearing. Thank you both.

WAXMAN: You bet. LEMON: Thank you. Now, I want to bring in now our CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig. Elie, you know, Josh mentioned the legal angle of that and that's where this is, you know, part of where this investigation is going. Thank you for joining us. I appreciate it.

Listen, I just want to get your reaction on what Sharon just told us, which is the Wrap's reporting. CNN has not been able to confirm that. That the gun was taken out for target practice, or target shooting outside the scope of the movie. What will investigators be looking at with this information, and how could it impact who is responsible in this case?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, Don, this is an enormously important piece of information if confirmed because it really tells us two things. First of all, if the round that killed Ms. Hutchins turned out to be a live around, as Josh Campbell was talking about, this could explain how a live gun with a live ammo on it got on to that tray before it was handed to Alec Baldwin.

And more generally speaking, if people are out doing target practice, recreational target practice with live weapons when they're not shooting, that suggests a set that is very poorly cared for, where negligence is sort of more than norm than anything else. So that's going to be a problem for the people in charge as well.

LEMON: Let's talk about who's doing the hiring here. A crew member is putting this on the armorer and the producers. You also heard Josh Campbell's reporting there about a prior incident that the A.D. had on a different set. Would legal charges come down to the people who are vetting crew members like these? Or is it just the crew involved, as the producers, what does it come down to?

HONIG: So, there are two types of liability applied here. There is a civil liability which is a lower standard. You have to show negligence, that's what someone have to show to sue somebody else for money damages. Then there is criminal charges, potentially, involuntary manslaughter. There you have to show criminal negligence or recklessness, which is a higher standard.

So, I'm looking really at three people here. First of all, the assistant director. When he handed that gun to Alec Baldwin and said cold gun, what had he done to confirm that? Had he actually looked at the gun? What did he see? Did he actually not inspect it and then hand it to Alec Baldwin? If so, that's going to be a big problem.

I'm looking at the armorer. Was she qualified? And how would did it come about that a loaded live weapon was on that tray for the A.D. to grab. And then finally, yes, whoever did the hiring here. Look, we know the A.D. had prior issues that Josh just talked about. We know that the armorer was maybe shaky in her experience that she just laid out in that podcast that we heard. So, I think those are the three people who are going to be the focus here.

LEMON: Elie, listen, obviously, this was an accident. Alec Baldwin is also a producer, not the only producer on the show. So, what is the liable -- what liability could he be looking at, if any, here? [22:15:00]

HONIG: Yes, Don, my view right now is Alec Baldwin, in his capacity as an actor does not have any liability. I think the standard norm as we've heard from various experts, is if you're an actor, you handed a gun and told cold gun, you are entitled to bank on that.

However, as a producer, the question is what type of role did he do? Not all producers are created exactly equal. Some are just producers in names because they are big names, but if he was directly involved in the hiring of people who may have red flags. In the management of that side, that kind of thing, then yes, he could have liability.

I think it's more likely going to be civil liability for someone in that position, a criminal liability. But yes, very serious issues here.

LEMON: Prosecutors and police have already gotten a search warrant executed by the sheriff. Does that tell you anything, is that just the standard operational procedure, pro forma?

HONIG: No, that does tell me something, Don. In order to get a search warrant, you can't just get that on a whim. You have to as a prosecutor and a police officer write out what we call your probable cause. You have to write out an affidavit, bring it to a judge, a judge reviews it, a judge has to agree. There is probable cause, a, that a crime was committed, probable cause meaning more likely than not. And b, that we will find evidence of that crime at the scene.

So, as a prosecutor, you are going to want more than that before you charge someone criminally. But, it's a good set of the way there. It's a good step towards an eventual criminal charge.

LEMON: Yes. Elie, we appreciate it. You're always so knowledgeable on these things, we appreciate having you. Thank you, sir.

HONIG: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: Listen, it is a big story. It is our lead story. And you can consider -- consider the history of Hollywood and the entire movie industry, right? And this has happened a few times. Something went terribly, terribly wrong. There were precautions put in place after it happened to Brandon Lee.

And now, this, and one of the biggest actors, biggest personalities in the world, and someone is dead. We will continue to follow the story.

And also, our big story tonight, Facebook. Facebook whistleblower out with new charges today about how hate speech is good for the company's bottom line.


FRANCES HAUGEN, FORMER FACEBOOK EMPLOYEE: It doesn't matter if you're on the left or the right. It pushes you to the extreme and it fans hate. Right? Anger, and hate is the easiest way to grow on Facebook.




LEMON (on camera): So, I got to tell you, everyone, what we are hearing from whistleblower Frances Haugen is blowing up Facebook. Listen to what she testifies to in the British parliament today. She says it only takes a small percentage of content that is hateful, to her words, have a revolution.


HAUGEN: So, Facebook comes back and says, only a tiny small sliver of our platform is hate. Only a tiny sliver is violence. One, they can't detect it very well, so I don't know if I trust these numbers. But two, it gets hyper concentrated in, you know, 5 percent of the population. And only need 3 percent of the population on the streets to have a revolution and that's dangerous.


LEMON (on camera): Hate and lies that could spark a revolution. And the hate, the lies and plenty more they are spreading like wildfire on Facebook. Listen, nobody is suggesting that everything you see on Facebook is harmful. No one is suggesting that.

You may never have seen any hate or misinformation at all, well, may. But for people who do, the angry rhetoric is it's like a drug. And it is good for Facebook's bottom line. So, the big question tonight, what Facebook knew and what they are doing about it? All right?

It's all coming out in the Facebook papers. Tens of thousands of pages of internal documents leaked by the whistleblower. Documents that go really deep into the company's struggles to regulate hate speech and misinformation in this country and around the world really.

The redacted versions were obtained by CNN and a group 16 other news organizations. And what all this tells us is really chilling.


HAUGEN: One of the things that happen with groups and with networks of groups, is that people see echo chambers that create social norms. If I'm in a group that has a lot of COVID misinformation, and I see over and over again that if someone gives COVID vaccine like things they increase people to get vaccinated, they get completely pounce one, they get torn apart.

I learn that certain ideas are acceptable and unacceptable. When the context is around hate, now you see a normalization of hate and normalization of dehumanizing others and that's what lead to violent incidence.


LEMON (on camera): Listen, think about this any time you've been any of the social media platforms, or even video platforms, and you happen upon your something that is, you know, whatever you happen upon. And then all of a sudden, it clicks you to the next one that is similar, and then the next one that's similar.

So, if you're on a misinformation web site, it's like a rabbit hole that you keep going down. It doesn't -- it doesn't give you other things it doesn't diversify what you're watching if it shows you one something that's a conspiracy theory and then, you know, it will show you something that tells the truth. It doesn't do that.

You just continue down that rabbit hole of whatever it is, whatever it is like you clicked on, and then sometimes I'll go on and to start to see scarier, and scarier, and scarier. And I'm like, what is this? Is this what happens to everyone? Did you sort of get into their own media bubble and their own echo chamber. That's what happens.

So, if you get stuck in this whole echo chamber of hate, and misinformation, it is normalizing, hate becomes normal to you because that's what you see, allowing conspiracy theories and angry rhetoric to infect our democracy. That's what happened. That's how we got to where we are right now.

But how do you reach people who firmly believe the QAnon lies? Lies that the former president the one who left Washington in disgrace nine months ago, people believe he is still the president.



UNKNOWN: Wasn't Q whole thing Trump would be reinstated as president?

UNKNOWN: He's never left. There is no doubt in my mind 150,000 percent.

UNKNOWN: That he still president of the United States?


UNKNOWN: Really? Does he still hold the powers of the presidency?

UNKNOWN: He's been flying around the world on Air Force One. That says something.

UNKNOWN: I thought Joe Biden is on Air force One?


UNKNOWN: So, they're faking it?

UNKNOWN: Yes. It's not even a presidency.

UNKNOWN: Who is running the government right now? UNKNOWN: President Trump.


LEMON (on camera): So, President Trump is still flying around on Air Force One in his mind, and probably the mind of other people. How do you reach people like that man in the video? Reach people who refused to take a lifesaving vaccine. How do you reach those people, not that he is, but how do you reach people who refuse to take a lifesaving vaccine in the middle of a pandemic that has killed more than 730,000 Americans?


UNKNOWN: No, not getting that vaccine. No, no, no. The vaccines are not good.

UNKNOWN: Are you vaccinated?

UNKNOWN: No. But I have lots of hydroxychloroquine in my house.

UNKNOWN: Have you got your vaccine shot?

UNKNOWN: Nope. Don't want it.


UNKNOWN: They didn't test enough from my opinion.

UNKNOWN: I don't trust the government, I don't trust the CDC, I don't trust none of them.

UNKNOWN: Do you know any people who got sick or died from the virus?

UNKNOWN: I know three people who got -- who got it and dies. But you know what, I know people who got cancer and died.

UNKNOWN: So, you know three people who died from coronavirus and you won't get the vaccine?

UNKNOWN: No, I don't, like I said, I don't need the vaccine.

UNKNOWN: Have you guys gotten vaccinated?


UNKNOWN: No. Won't do it.

UNKNOWN: Can I ask why you chose not to?

UNKNOWN: I'm allergic to a lot of things like chemicals and stuff like that. And freedom. You can choose. If you can have an abortion and choose your body, I should be able to choose if I get a shot.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON (on camera): And then, I saw an interview with this man who

said that the vaccine was killing people, and everyone who took the vaccine, right, pretty much everyone is going to die from taking the vaccine. And then the interviewer said, well, how -- well, the vaccine was facilitated by the former president. He takes credit for it. How did explain that?

And he said, because he wanted to save lives. How then does that make sense? Like if it's Donald Trump with the vaccine then it's to save lives. But if it's not him, then it's killing people. See that.

The lies, misinformation, the hateful rhetoric they are spreading out of control really, even the hate that spark the deadly violence in Charlottesville.


CROWD: Jews will not replace us!


LEMON (on camera): Jews will not replace us. Jury selection in the civil case against the organizers of the unite the right rally began today and that's where we are tonight from Charlottesville to January 6th to vaccine lies and the nation drowning in hate and misinformation.

It seems like America is angrier than ever and Facebook has a lot to answer for. We're going to have to figure out how to reach people who believe the lies and the misinformation. Donie O'Sullivan is here, Bakari Sellers is here. How much did Facebook know and what's the platform doing to our democracy after the break.



LEMON (on camera): So, let's talk more about our breaking news now. Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg defiant amid damning new evidence of the social media giant's role in the January 6th insurrection. Speaking to investors tonight, Zuckerberg downplayed the thousands of pages of leaked internal documents.

So, I want to bring in now as before the break, CNN correspondent Donie O'Sullivan and our political commentator Bakari Sellers. Gentlemen, hello to both of you. Good evening.

Donie, Donie, excuse me, these internal Facebook documents and what we're hearing from whistleblower Frances Haugen, it all paints a very disturbing picture of how Facebook repeatedly failed to stop the spread of extremism and that includes the stop the steal movement. How much did Facebook know about what was going on here?

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN REPORTER: Well, I think it's pretty clear that they knew a lot, Don. Right? I mean, that experiment that you spoke about earlier where they set up this account of a North Carolina mom, 41 years old. She starts off by liking Donald Trump, Melania Trump, Fox News and after a few weeks, Facebook is recommending Facebook is recommending -- Facebook is recommending she follow QAnon pages.


LEMON: But that's what I said, right? You get --


LEMON: OK. Go on. Go on. Sorry.

O'SULLIVAN: Yes. She follows three percenter pages. This is an experience, you know, we're all familiar with, right? And I think that really is, that demonstrates all of this. Zuckerberg can say whatever he wants.

I will say I think Zuckerberg is starting to sound more and more like Trump rather than engaging on substance here, he's attacking the media and everybody seems to be wrong apart from Facebook, in his view, even people who used to worked at the company. But specifically, to answer your question, they knew about this project, this QA project back in 2019. It took them another year to ban QAnon and it was just a few weeks before the election when they did that.


LEMON: Yes. You can see almost, as I said, when you get -- go down this route it's almost like brainwashing. You just -- you just more and more and more of the same and it gets more extreme and more extreme and more extreme as you continue to go along. I have to find myself. I know it's not true and I said, OK, I got to get out of this, this is really disturbing.

Bakari, Frances Haugen says that unquestionably that Facebook is "making hate worse," and that's a quote and thinks that unless changes are made, that we should see, we will see or could see more violence. What this all this doing to our political discourse here plus violence around the world, really.

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, it's polluting our political discourse and I have no love for Sheryl Sandberg and Mark Zuckerberg. Not only have they put their bottom line above democracy and those principles we hold true, but their simply indifferent and have excuses. and I think, I think we're right.

They sound more like the Trumps than they do stewards of good business. But Facebook has three problems. The first is it's a bastion of disinformation. The second is, it promulgates hate. And lastly, the adverse impact it has on young people in this country can't be ignored.

And so, I like the Handoff with you and Chris. And one of the things that Chris said was how do you -- how do you regulate them; how do you hold them accountable? Well, I have an idea.

I mean, I think that from Dylann Roof and him promulgating hate utilizing Facebook as a bastion of hate to get his ideas and express his feelings and learn more, et cetera, to Charlottesville to January 6th, I think not only should Facebook be held civilly liable but they should be held as criminal co-conspirators for the harmful acts, the deaths that had been caused and it's the indifference that they show.

And so, I think that although they have trouble regulating them in Congress, I do think that we can take a stern hard look at the way that we adjudicate them and hold them accountable on the court of law.

LEMON: You're an attorney, Bakari. Do you think that's actually possible? Is that a sustainable --


SELLERS: Yes. I mean, look, I mean, I have thrown a lot of, you know, things in wind mills and some have stuck and be successful some have not. But I mean, no one thought when they sued the tobacco industry in this country that they would be successful either on its impact and its lies and its deceit.

Facebook is another similar example. And I think that you look at those three examples, whether or not it's what they've done in January 6th or what they didn't do in January 6th. If you look at what they did in Charlottesville and if you look at Dylann Roof, those are three clear examples where Mark Zuckerberg and Sheryl Sandberg have done absolutely nothing.

I mean, it's embarrassing what they've done to held divide this country and they just sit out there in palo Alto in Silicon Valley and just chill with the rest of their friends.

LEMON: This is I want to play Mark Zuckerberg's response tonight so to be fair. Here it is.


MARK ZUCKERBERG, CEO, FACEBOOK: Good faith criticism helps us get better, but my view is that we are seeing a coordinated effort to selectively use leaked documents to paint a false picture of our company. The reality is we have an open culture where we encourage discussion and research about our work so we can make progress on many complex issues that are not specific to just us.


LEMON (on camera): OK. So, Donie, that was on an investor call but here is the problem. There is a lot of criticism coming from inside the company. He talks about, you know, he's talking about what's happening in the company. There is a lot of criticism coming from inside the company and then I wonder if that changes things but everybody is right, everybody is wrong but him. Do you get what I'm saying?

O'SULLIVAN: Yes, look, good faith criticism. What about bad face arguments? A perfect example of how Facebook cannot be trusted is they release this report for the second quarter of this year where they show these are the most popular links in the country, the most popular web sites in Facebook in the U.S.

And it showed that the pages were about pets and animals and cooking and cute things. And people ask well, where is the Q1 report? What about the first three months of this year? It turned out Facebook had that report but they decided not to release it publicly because the top piece, the top link was actually a piece of scaremongering about the vaccine.

And that we only learn that quarter (Inaudible) report because The New York Times reported on it. But in the meantime, they released the second quarter report saying see how transparent we are and see how great we are? So, it's really very, very difficult to trust this company when it comes to their own research because we don't know what way they are going to spin it?

LEMON: Last word, Bakari. What do we do?

SELLERS: I think sometimes you leave well enough alone. And that was -- that was a good message there by Donie. But the fact of the matter is, Facebook is out of control and it's one thing to be out of control. It's another thing to be out of control and unregulated.


And this goes to the fact that Chuck Grassley and a lot of these old members of the United States Senate and United States Congress really don't even though what Facebook is or how it works or operates but somebody has to stop them from polluting our culture and being a part of tearing apart democracy.

I understand individual responsibility but Facebook goes one step further. They actually age you and prom age you in promulgating the hate, which then causes deaths that we see throughout the country. I just have Facebook so my mother can look at pictures and stay connected with her grandchildren. That's why most people had it.

But there are other people out there who are using it for sinister reasons to tear apart democracy and again, I don't think you can separate Mark Zuckerberg from Sheryl Sandberg. They absolutely don't care.

LEMON: All right. Thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate it.

President Biden in Jersey today as we say up here. He's in New Jersey today trying to get the state's Democratic governor reelected and making a lot of promises about his build back better plan, a plan Democrats still haven't agreed on.



LEMON (on camera): Democrats scrambling to try to reach a deal on President Biden's agenda ahead of his big foreign trip later in the week. Senator Joe Manchin saying it is possible a deal could be reached in a matter of days but there are a whole lot of sticking points over what exactly will be in that social safety net package?

Let's discuss now. Democratic Congressman Tim Ryan of Ohio is here, he is running by the way for U.S. Senate in 2022. Thank you, sir. Good to see you.

Congressman, I'll say senator soon, maybe. We'll see. Listen, so let's talk about this and then we'll talk about your race. The president is making clear that he wants to deal -- a deal before he leaves for the G20 later in the week on Thursday.

Now, we saw things move closer today but this whole process has been anything but smooth as you're well aware of. Do democrats need to put something forward soon to prove to voters that they can actually govern?

REP. TIM RYAN (D-OH): A thousand percent. I mean, we got to get this done there. There is a sense of urgency in the country, Don, that I think you understand that a lot of your viewers understand that this is 30 or 40 years in the making putting more money in the back in the pockets of people.

You know, we cut taxes for the top 1, 5, 10 percent for the last 30 or 40 years and the theory was it will trickle down to places like down Ohio or Steubenville, Ohio. That didn't happen. And this is an attempt for us to put money in people's pockets, whether you're talking about early childhood education, that's money in people's pockets, a tax cut for families, that's money in people's pockets.

Telling seniors on the Medicare program that they don't have to go and pay themselves for hearing aids or glasses. That's money in their pockets. So, this is all about rebalancing this economic system that's been completely out of whack for 30 or 40 years. People are very impatient, I'm impatient. It's time for us to get it done.

LEMON: Congressman, Democrats are still hashing out the social safety net package but what's in includes universal pre-K, a child tax credit extension, climate tax credits and incentives, funding for affordable housing. It would hugely benefit many Ohioans of all ideologies, of all different backgrounds whether Republican or Democrat.

Will passing Biden's agenda help Democrats win back working-class voters who flipped to Trump?

RYAN: A thousand percent. I mean, I think the problem has been and I've been doing this a little while, I grew up in northwest Ohio in Cleveland and Pittsburgh we've seen a lot of promises made. And it was tax cuts that we're going to trickle down to our communities and help us rebuild. That was not the answer.

And I think we all are in agreement now that that didn't work. And so now here is our chance to really try to put money in people's pockets and that's what all this stuff does. I mean, this is like built for the working class whether you're white or black or brown.

Like this is built for you. If you have child care issues and you're spending a lot, this brings those costs down. If you are going to pay for health care, this brings those costs down. If you want to get your kid into preschool, this helps you make that happen so that we can compete against China.

That's the other piece of this, Don, that a lot of people aren't talking about. We have to build this out so that we can out compete China. Like, that is our -- that is our chief competition right now economically, military and every other way.

And so, these investments are about how do we out compete them? How do we get the skill? How do we dominate the industries of the future? How do we build electric vehicles, cars, charging stations, battery factories, wind, solar, there is a manufacturing renaissance waiting to happen and we're letting China run circles around us right now?

This bill is about laying that groundwork. Training our work force.

LEMON: But for that --


RYAN: So, this is about social safety net but this is about creating good paying jobs for people who go out and do everything right and need a little breathing room.

LEMON: Well, also but again, I think that Democrats need to do a better job of convincing or showing Republicans that it's actually good for Republicans especially working class people and rural, people who are in rural areas that there is, you know, it shouldn't -- they should incentivize them. That there is some good things in there that will help them.

Listen, before we -- before I let you go there, I just want to talk to you about the Senate race that you're in in Ohio, which you are, you know, running for the GOP, on the GOP side, right? You have -- you know, it's a battle over who can be the Trumpiest.

Former Ohio state treasurer Josh Mandel, J.D. Vance trying to show who is more loyal to the former president. Are you worried that this race is going to become a referendum on Trump instead of what Ohioans actually need?


RYAN: No. Ohioans are very pragmatic. I'll tell you what Ohioans don't want, they don't regardless of their political party or even their views, they don't want a senator who's got to go kiss someone's ring or kiss someone's rear end to go get the OK to vote a certain way.

They want someone who's got Ohio deep in their DNA and is going to advocate for them, whether they're white or black or brown, who's going to bring the Ohio business community together with the Ohio workers so that we can rebuild our communities. They don't want to have fights. Everyone is tired of the fights. They want common ground until we can get to some higher ground. Someone that's going to work with business but also make sure workers

get cut in on the deal. I think the choice is going to be very, very clear on how Ohioans want to move forward.

We're asking everybody, Don, who wants to help out to go to, chip in 5 or 10 bucks. This campaign is on the move, everyone on the other side, millionaires. They're stroking checks to their own campaign for 5 million, 10 million, 7 million, 3 million, whatever's going to get them over the hump. We're fueled by low-dollar donors. Every donation, average donation is under $100.

So, go to if you want a senator who's not a millionaire, I think we can all be in agreement that there's enough millionaires in the United States Senate, let someone -- someone in who's going to fight like hell for the working class.

LEMON: Tim Ryan, congressman, thank you very much. Good luck.

RYAN: Thanks, Don. Always good to be with you.

LEMON: You as well.

A nor'easter bearing down on the East Coast tonight. We've got the up to the minute forecast. That's next.



LEMON (on camera): We have news tonight including the weather. New York Governor Kathy Hochul declaring a state of emergency for more than 20 counties ahead of the anticipated nor'easter. The rain is already coming down in the tri-state area, worrying officials that after the remnants of hurricane Ida that caused deadly mass flooding in September, what could happen? What are the possibilities?

Our meteorologist Pedram Javaheri joins me now. Pedram, good to see you. What are you expecting from this storm?

PEDRAM JAVAHERI, CNN METEOROLOGIST: You know, Don, this has been a storm that has had a history of producing significant damage. It was in fact the same storm last Thursday into Friday that impacted part of California, that's now moved 3,000 miles to the east, brought with it with some severe weather on the Midwest in the last couple of days and now moving in towards the northeast as we set up shop here later on tonight into tomorrow.

And that is what the concern is here because the storm undergoes what we call bombogenesis or the bomb cyclone trend that you often hear in through the drops about 24 millibars of pressure within 24 hours. That is a rapidly intensifying storm system that is already strong.

Because you notice, again, it has had a history of producing at least 17 tornados. That was around the Midwest, parts of Missouri, an EF3 observed there. Pretty impressive for the month of October. And right now, you're seeing the bouts of heavy rainfall already pour in. Washington, Baltimore, work your way towards Allentown and Scranton

and eventually this skirts on in right towards portions of New York City later on tonight into tomorrow. And the concern, Don, is that over the next 24 hours, potentially later on tomorrow evening and tomorrow night, we get some very, very heavy rainfall, maybe one to two inches per hour.

The National Weather Service are taking this very seriously. About 40 million people underneath these flood alerts. And notice where the heaviest guidance for the rainfall is. Widespread coverage over the next two to three days here of four to six inches with potentially six plus inches --


JAVAHERI: -- in areas around central and northern New jersey. Again, you bring this much rainfall in an urban environment, you've seen how things played out in August and into September. The concern is certainly we could see some similar scenes in spots, maybe not across New York City but spots around the northeast in the next couple of days.

LEMON: Well, let's talk about that. We were, you know, both -- well, I got to move on, we were both covering that in early September what happened in the tri-state area.


LEMON: I mean, there was massive flooding. There were even deaths. So, we'll be paying close watch on it, keeping a close eye on it. Thank you, Pedram, we appreciate it.

JAVAHERI: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: Up next, what is going on the set? There's new information coming out about the gun incidents before Alec Baldwin accidentally shot and killed the cinematographer on the set of his latest movie.