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Don Lemon Tonight

Deadly Shooting At A High School In Michigan; Mark Meadows Is Cooperating With Jan. 6 Committee; Bitter Feud Breaks Out Between Marjorie Taylor Greene And Nancy Mace; Israel's Health Minister Says "Indications' COVID Vaccine Protects Against Omicron Variant; Supreme Court To Hear Pivotal Abortion Rights Case. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired November 30, 2021 - 23:00   ET




DON LEMON, CNN HOST: We have breaking news tonight. It has happened again. A deadly shooting at a high school in the U.S. This time in Michigan. Three students shot to death. A 15-year-old in custody tonight.

Also, a mayor development in the January 6 investigation. Mark Meadows, chief of staff to the former president, cooperating with the House Select Committee, providing records and agreeing to sit for a deposition.

And a bitter public feud turning the GOP into a circus. The QAnon congresswoman, Marjorie Taylor Greene, calling fellow Republican Nancy Mace -- and I quote here -- "trash." That after Mace condemned anti- Muslim bigotry from GOP Congresswoman Lauren Boebert against Democrat Ilhan Omar.

But first, I want to get the breaking news, the deadly shooting at a Michigan high school. Three students killed. I want to turn right to CNN's Adrienne Broaddus. Adrienne, good evening to you. Thanks so much for joining us.

We just heard the press conference there. Another senseless shooting. Three teenagers are dead, many more injured, and a 15-year-old sophomore in custody. A lot of new information from the sheriff in the press conference a short while ago. Give us the latest, please.

ADRIENNE BROADDUS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Don, a lot of new information, including the names of the three deceased. I'd like to share them with our viewers tonight. Sixteen-year-old male died today. His name was Tate Myre. He died in the patrol car while deputies were transporting him to the hospital. The other two victims were females, a 14-year-old Hanna St. Julian as well as a 17-year-old female Madisyn Baldwin.

In addition to the three deceased, eight others were injured, including a teacher. And their injuries range from critical to -- we know the teacher was released this afternoon. She sustained a gunshot wound. But the sheriff told us a 14-year-old is in critical condition tonight fighting for her life and she is on a ventilator. She sustained multiple gunshot wounds.

This all unfolded earlier in the day in Oakland County. It happened at Oxford High School. The suspect, Don, as you mentioned, is a 15-year- old male. The motive behind this still unclear.

The sheriff told us moments ago surveillance video shows the suspect exiting a bathroom. And upon arrival, deputies were able to take him into custody within two minutes. When they confronted him, he was holding a 9-mm pistol, and Don, it was loaded. It contained seven additional rounds of ammunition. And the sheriff says when those deputies confronted him, he believes they interrupted seven more shootings that could have been seven additional shots.

We learned tonight the gun that the suspect used was purchased four days ago, according to the sheriff, and it was purchased, according to the sheriff, by the boy's father.

Tonight, that 15-year-old suspect is in the juvenile detention center and we've learned he's on what members of law enforcement call a suicide watch. They say he is in a special cell and someone is checking in on him about every 15 minutes. A lot of heartache in this community tonight. Three people died but eight others were injured. And those injuries, Don, are serious.

I spoke with a grandmother earlier in the day. She said she got the alert that the school was on lockdown minutes after leaving a funeral. She lives about an hour north of here in Saginaw, Michigan. She said the first call she made was to her pastor to request prayer because she didn't know what was going on. She later found out her two grandchildren who were at this school were okay. Her oldest grandson, who is a senior and also a friend of Tate Myre, was able to escape.


He ran to a nearby grocery store. Folks here know that grocery store as Myre. His younger brother was still inside of the school barricaded in a classroom with his teacher and a few other students. He was hiding under a desk when he called his father to let his father know what happened.

Tonight, that grandmother told me those prayers she requested from her pastor now turn to this community. At least 1,800 students attend this school. And in the interest of full transparency, that grandmother, I've known since I was a child, and her pastor is my father, and they told me, we see this on the news all the time, Adrianne, but we never knew it would show up in our community.

LEMON: Yeah.


LEMON: It touched -- this tragedy touched so many people. I think the sheriff, Adrianne, said one of the 911 callers sadly was a relative of someone who died there. I'm sorry for your loss and that you're being touched by this personally. Adrianne brought us there at the press conference for us this evening. Adrianne, thank you so much. Be well. I'm going to show you some new video that we have tonight inside one of the classrooms at Oxford High School. Students and their teacher heard a voice from the hallway and waited, not sure who the person on the other side of the door was.


UNKNOWN (voice-over): It's safe to come out.

UNKNOWN: We're not willing to take that risk right now.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): I can't hear you.

UNKNOWN: We're not taking that risk right now.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Come to the door and look at my badge, bro.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): No.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): He said, bro. He said, bro.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): He said, bro. A red flag.


LEMON (on camera): Situation inside the school as it was happening.

I want to turn now to former FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe. He is now a CNN senior law enforcement analyst. Andrew, thanks for joining. Sorry under these circumstances. As you're watching this, three students are dead, eight others injured, some suffering life- threatening wounds. The gun was bought by the suspect's father just four days ago.

I know this is very personal for you. You're the father of a high school senior. The details that we learned from the sheriff tonight about the alleged shooter, how much ammo he had? And his accuracy, it is really -- all of this is really chilling.

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST, FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF FBI: Don, it's terrifying. It is terrifying. I mean, to anyone who sends a student off to school at any level, any grade, anywhere in this country has to be thinking tonight that tomorrow, it could be my school, it could be my kid, and it could.

That's the reality of the situation we live in. We are in the middle of an epidemic of gun violence in this country and it very often washes up on the youngest and most innocent victims we have, our own children.

LEMON: Yeah. You know, the big question is, why? The suspect is in custody. But he is a minor, not talking to officials, hasn't been charged as an adult, so they don't know -- well, they haven't released his name. They know who he is. How will police determine a motive here, Andrew? MCCABE: Well, Don, you heard the sheriff's officer tell us today that they've already executed a search warrant at this young man's home. And so, undoubtedly in that warrant, they're looking for any information that could shed light on that question, why did he do this? Who else may have known that he was thinking about this? What might he have said to other people that would have shed any light on his plans or his thought process?

To find that, they're going to look at his electronic devices. They've already indicated they've recovered one phone and they're going to obviously exploit the contents of that phone. They will be looking at any computers or laptops or anything he had access to. They're going to look at his social media accounts very closely, look at his posts, anything he might have written or said.

They're going to try to understand what his network of friends and, you know, classmates were. They'll interview all those people and their parents to try to get an understanding of not just what was in this young man's head and what might have motivated him, but whether or not he had an influence on anyone else in his circle of friends. And if -- you know, hopefully, there is no one else that's thinking about the same thing.

LEMON: I keep looking at my notes here while you're speaking because there was so much that came out of this press conference. But let me get you to look at this video. Take a look at this video. It's of a teacher using a desk or table to block the classroom door as students are sheltered in place here.

The sheriff says that the suspect was in custody within two minutes. But three students were still killed. I mean, the amount of security and training that they had there and, you know, even with all the training that these schools have, this is still horrific that this could happen.

MCCABE: Yeah, Don. I mean, if there -- look, there is no good news from this story, but I guess one of the few positive indicators that we can look at are that the training has worked, right?


You have a very progressive forward leaning jurisdiction like this where the sheriff talked extensively tonight about the training they've done with their partners and with the education system and the schools. And then you see it on that video, right? The kids and teachers are doing exactly what they're told to do. They are taking shelter in their classrooms, they're barricading those doors, turning out the lights, staying out of sight. Those are all things that they learned in the training.

You also see that the police officers responded to the scene and immediately engaged with this subject in an effort to stop the bloodshed and that worked, right? They were on him and disarmed him within two minutes.

So, those things are working. But the sad bottom line is it's never enough. You're always behind the shooter. You're always reacting after the disaster struck. And therefore, you always run the chance of losing some lives.

LEMON: Very important question, I think. A quick answer, though, if you will, because of the breaking news, we lost a lot of time to interview you, guys. The father bought a gun four days ago. What does this end? He -- somehow the son is using it. Do we know where this goes from here?

MCCABE: We don't. We're in the same place after -- that we are often in these tragedies. Look, very quickly, the gun laws in this country are broken. You're hearing that from a lifetime gun owner and somebody who carried one for 21 years as a law enforcement officer. But until we start holding people responsible for the guns that they're buying, the firearms they're keeping in their homes, we're going to have more and more tragedies.

LEMON: Yeah. It is sad all the way around. Thank you very much, Andrew McCabe. I appreciate it.

MCCABE: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: Tonight, a major development in the January 6th investigation. Mark Meadows, the chief of staff to the former president, cooperating with the January 6th Committee, providing records and agreeing to appear for questioning. The committee saying that he has already turned over about 6,000 emails. Meadows is under subpoena and cooperating with the head of criminal contempt charges at least for now.

So, a lot to discuss. CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig is here. He is a former federal prosecutor. Elie, good evening to you. New developments in this case that we've been talking about as it comes to Mark Meadows. We are learning from the committee chairman, Bennie Thompson, that Mark Meadows has provided about 6,000 emails through his lawyer. That seems significant. What do you think? That's a lot of emails.

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It is a lot, Don, and it's certainly a good start. I'm more interested in the quality than the quantity. I mean, there could be a lot of junk in those 6,000 emails.

The real question here, look, this is a deal, and as often the case with the deal, both sides get something, both sides had something to lose here. Mark Meadows avoids going down the Steve Bannon path of potentially getting indicted for contempt of Congress. And the committee gets at least some information out of Mark Meadows.

Mark Meadows is a central witness here. But my big question is going to be, what happens when the committee starts asking tough questions? Those 6,000 emails, we have a pretty sure bet none of them were Donald Trump. He didn't email.

So, what happens when the committee says to Mark Meadows, what did Trump do when that crowd stormed the Capitol? What was his reaction? Did anyone tell him to call that crowd off? Did he do it? Why did he wait so long? If Meadows is not willing and able to answer those questions, then it's not much of a deal.

LEMON: Yeah. The committee has shown really a lot of interest, whether Meadows used a personal cell phone at the time of the insurrection and any text messages that he might have. Will that fall outside the scope of executive privilege or could he end up taking the fifth?

HONIG: Well, it doesn't matter what device you use. It is the communications. But I do think the fact that if he was using a personal cell phone, I think that raises the natural question of why.

And if he deleted emails for the purpose of keeping them out of the hands of the investigators, whether it is Congress or law enforcement, then that is potentially, if he did it and if that was his intention was to avoid investigation, that could get into the realm of obstruction of justice or obstruction of Congress.

LEMON (on camera): Then there is Trump's effort to keep White House documents from his presidency secret based on executive privilege. Judges hearing the case today showed little sympathy for arguments from Trump -- from the Trump team. Here it is. Watch this.


PATRICIA MILLETT, JUDGE, D.C. CIRCUIT COURT OF APPEALS (voice-over): You're going to have to come up with something more power that's going to outweigh the incumbent president's decision to waive. Right, you're going to have to change the score on that scoreboard.


LEMON (on camera): You listened to arguments today. How did it go?

HONIG: Very poorly for the Trump lawyers. Trump is going to lose this case. I'll just say it. I mean, it was agonizing listening to the lawyers because the judges kept asking that question over and over. They kept saying, look, we acknowledge that a former president in some circumstances could have some interest in trying to exert executive privilege. However, if the current president disagrees, why and when could the former president possibly win out?


And the lawyer just could not answer that question. So, I don't see any way these judges' rule in favor of Trump having listened to that argument today. Of course, it could end up in the Supreme Court next.

LEMON: Yeah. Learning some other things today. Also learning tonight that the January 6th Committee is planning to refer the former DOJ official, Jeffrey Clark, for criminal contempt tomorrow. They say that he refused to answer questions at a recent deposition or produce any document. Does that help explain why they are taking Clark on next?

HONIG: Yeah. Look, Jeffrey Clark should be referred for contempt and contempt should be actually the least of Jeffrey Clark's worries. Let's remember who this guy is. He was a high-ranking official at DOJ. He committed a fraud inside the Justice Department. He wrote a letter to the state of Georgia, saying, we the DOJ have identified potential widespread election fraud, and you state of Georgia, you need to call a special session and appoint new electors.

I mean, that's outrageous. That's false and a fraud. So, he should be held in contempt if he continues to defy the committee and he may have bigger problems as well.

LEMON: Elie, thank you so much, sir. I appreciate it.

HONIG: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: With all of this going on, the GOP is having an absolute meltdown. The QAnon congresswoman publicly and repeatedly slamming a colleague in her own party for opposing hate and bigotry. And from the leaders of the GOP, crickets.



LEMON: The worst of the GOP on full display tonight. The QAnon congresswoman, Marjorie Taylor Greene, calling fellow Republican Nancy Mace "trash." That after Mace condemned anti-Muslim bigotry from GOP Congresswoman Lauren Boebert against Democrat Ilhan Omar. Tonight, Greene doubling down, promising to back a primary challenge to Mace with the support of the former president.

Mace firing back and I'm quoting her here. "All I can say about Marjorie Taylor Greene is bless her f-ing heart." So, that's where we are. That is the state of the GOP tonight.

Let's discuss. Dean Obeidallah is here. He is an opinion contributor at Liam Donovan is a Republican strategist. Good to see both of you. This is nuts. But I want to hear how you feel.

Liam, you -- you know, have Representative Greene calling fellow Republicans Congresswoman Nancy Mace "trash." As Representative Boebert's bigotry on display, GOP leadership is essentially missing in action with McCarthy really refusing to say anything publicly. What is happening with your party?

LIAM DONOVAN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Look, I think the details of this spat are going to be forgotten by the time we are pouring eggnog, but it's indicative of the underlying tension we're seeing come to head throughout the year. And in some ways, it has been true for the past decade within the Republican Party. The difference is leadership is no longer the last word. There is an 800-pound gorilla who resides in South Florida who is watching all this play out on cable TV.

So, a little bit different and a little bit new. I think that informs what leadership posture here is, which is staying -- trying to keep the peace behind the scenes and really just saying, guys, get out of the way. We're so close to a majority we can taste it after Virginia, New Jersey. The goal here is just to not screw it up. And so, you know, not going so hard right now, but I think that informs the posture of leadership.

LEMON (on camera): Listen, Greene says that she talked with -- you mentioned -- I think you said 800-pound gorilla, right, your words. She said that she talked with the former president today and that they would support primarying Mace. This is what Mace said on that tonight. Watch.


REP. NANCY MACE (R-SC): Just like going, you know, going and running and tattle telling to the principal because you have no ideas of your own and you can't stand on your own two feet. She has no ideas or any type of policy or legislation that will ever move forward because she can't do it. She's got to run to somebody else who is bigger than her and better than her for backup.

And I just refuse to operate that way. If she's going to, that's on her and it is not me. It shows weakness. Racism is weakness. Bigotry is weakness. Religious bigotry as she's shown is a weakness.


LEMON (on camera): All right. She said racism, bigotry, weakness. So, listen, I heard what you said about the strategy, people in leadership saying get out of the way, but they're really not saying anything. Why aren't we hearing more of that? Is every Republican who stands up to bigotry or stands up to Trump going to get pushed out?

DONOVAN: I think this is an indicative of politics as a team sport. I think, you know, the idea that you speak out against your side, that is being weaponized by Greene in this case, and to Mace's point, sort of appealing to Donald Trump --

LEMON: Liam, let me just -- don't you think -- don't you think that's indicative of the Republican Party right now? Look, Democrats couldn't even -- could barely come together to put an infrastructure package together because there are so many people who disagree with each other.

This is -- so that's not sticking with a strategy. Don't you think that's indicative of your party right now? This isn't really indicative of Democrats. You don't have Democrats calling each other f-ers and, you know, trash and that kind of thing.

DONOVAN: I think calling somebody a rhino is the oldest trick in the book. It's something that Republicans have gotten mileage out of, you know, all along. So, the intraparty feuding is very familiar in terms of making an example out of someone who clearly crosses line. That's a little bit different.

You know, I think the recent example of Steve King was somebody that the leadership had to deal with over a number of years. I think the difference was somebody like King (INAUDIBLE) welcome with his constituency, you don't fix these problems by top-down leadership- driven sort of punishment. I think in many ways, it needs to be dealt with by the voters. And unfortunately, with Marjorie Taylor Greene, I think the thing she's serving up actually does fairly well with her intended audience.


And so, the trick is here for Mace to try to figure out whether there is some real estate in between this sort of, you know, the crazies out there saying these things and the more bombastic sort of anti-Trump voices like Adam Kinzinger. I think that is what we are going to find out here. Does that earn you a primary just by taking a principled stand on things like let's say not calling people the jihad squad?


LEMON: Dean, I want to bring you in here.


LEMON: I don't know what's happening with the Republicans. I understand what he says about strategy, but this seems that is something that is really just sort of right now endemic to Republicans. This is madness. This is -- I mean, the leadership won't stand up. What do you make of what is going on?

DEAN OBEIDALLAH, CNN.COM OPINION CONTRIBUTOR: Don, over the years, how many times do we talk about anti-Muslim bigotry and Republicans? This began in 2012 with Newt Gingrich and Herman Cain saying Muslims want to impose Sharia law. To say that Donald Trump is somehow an aberration is ridiculous. He's a manifestation of the GOP is about. It is a party that has demonized Muslims. It is very real.

Today, Congresswoman Omar played at a press conference a death threat she got. She got death threats earlier this year when Congresswoman Boebart was saying she's a terrorist sympathizer. She got death threats two years ago when Trump and supporters were chanting, sent her back.

We saw a spike of hate crimes against Muslims in 2016 during that campaign because Trump was saying things like Islam hates us and I want to ban Muslims from coming to this country. Two-thirds of the republican base supported a total ban on Muslims. We saw a huge spike in hate crimes.

So, please, don't tell me this is because of Donald Trump. This is because GOP is an anti-Muslin bigoted organization. It is a white nationalist movement. Marjorie Taylor Greene represents this party far more than Kevin McCarthy.

I hope the Democrats make this an issue in 2022, make it a referendum on, do you want a white nationalist organization -- it is not a political party, it's a factious movement that is a white nationalist and its base running the House of Representatives -- or don't you? I really hope the Democrats make that the 2022 referendum.

LEMON: Okay. Listen, I want to ask Liam. I mean, if he thinks that the Republican Party is a white nationalist organization. We'll take a break. I'll hold you, guys, over and I'll get your response on the other side. We'll be right back.



LEMON: Okay. So, we are back now with Liam Donovan and Dean Obeidallah. So, Liam, Dean said that it was basically a white nationalist organization. Dean, I think you said what, like, fascist. It also has sort of fascist --


LEMON: Liam?

DONOVAN: Look, I think every Republican communicator in America hopes they embrace Dean's messaging for November. And look, I think we're several weeks away from Democrats running a strategy that was noun- verb Donald Trump. I don't think noun-verb Marjorie Taylor Greene or fascist store, you know, white nationalist is going to work any better.

People can see and differentiate. Voters can differentiate between a Glenn Youngkin and a Donald Trump or a Glenn Youngkin and a Marjorie Taylor Greene. And so, I think as a campaign strategy, that's just, you know, not going to pass the eye test. You know, I certainly wouldn't associate with a party that I thought to be, you know, that kind of group.

But look, there are people who are obviously out there saying things that I wouldn't disassociate myself with. So, I think that's what the fight that Nancy Mace is trying to get to and I think that's what leadership is trying to figure out right now, how do you deal with that under these circumstances?

LEMON: Dean, I'll let you respond to that, but then I want to -- I have another question for you. Go on.

OBEIDALLAH: Sure. I mean, you said two weeks ago, Paul Gosar, he put out a fantasy video where he is murdering AOC, a woman of color, and then spoke at a white national event. How many Republicans in the House voted to condemn him? Two. Two. Let's be blunt.

The GOP for years that is Muslim, I'm Muslim, if we don't speak up about the extremists in our group, then we are defined by them. I say the same to the GOP. Where are your rallies against the extremists to your party? Nowhere because you agree with them. They ran against Speaker Pelosi for years, the Republicans.

We'll run against Marjorie Taylor Greene, Paul Gosar, Madison Cawthorn, Lauren Boebert, because you know what? They are the face of this GOP. It's not Kevin McCarthy. It's them. That's where the energy and that's where the passion is. Let's be blunt. So, good luck. There might be some exceptions, Republicans, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying all Republicans are racists, but all racists are republicans.

(LAUGHTER) LEMON: You caught me off guard with that. Even Liam had to laugh. Listen, I don't have time for the next question, but can we just play this video? I just want to show our viewers what it is, and then we'll go to break here. This is CNN K-file. We found another video of Representative Boebert suggesting Representative Ilhan Omar was a terrorist. We shared with you the one last night. There is another one. We will go to break.


REP. LAUREN BOEBERT (R-CO): One of my staffers, on his first day with me, got into an elevator in the Capitol. And in that elevator, we were joined by Ilhan Omar.

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Oh, my God.


BOEBERT: Well, it was just us three in there and I looked over and I said, well, look at there, it's the Jihad Squad.



BOEBERT: I do have to say, she doesn't have a backpack, she wasn't dropping it and running, so we're good.



LEMON: The Biden administration trying to stay ahead of the new Omicron variant and now considering stricter testing for anyone traveling to the U.S.


That as Israel's health minister is saying there are indications people who have received the coronavirus vaccine booster are protected against the new variant.

Joining me now is Dr. William Schaffner. He is the medical director at the National Foundation for Infectious Diseases and professor of infectious diseases at Vanderbilt University Medical Center. It is a long title and well-deserved. Thank you, doctor, for joining us. I appreciate it. I hope that Israeli folks are right. Only has a handful of confirmed cases but now promising in this state -- it seems promising from this statement from the country's health minister.

WILLIAM SCHAFFNER, MEDICAL DIRECTOR AT NATIONAL FOUNDATION FOR INFECTIOUS DISEASES, PROFESSOR OF INFECTIOUS DISEASES AT VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER: Well, it certainly is a little ray of sunshine in an otherwise overcast sky, right, Don? But it is what we anticipated, that if you do get immunized and then boosted, you will have a lot of antibody and that much antibody tends to give you some cross protection to variants.

And I hope the Israeli minister is correct and further research reinforces this because we certainly need to boost people's notions that getting a booster is very important as well as getting that first dose into a lot of our friends and neighbors who somehow haven't rolled up their sleeve yet.

LEMON: Right. The FDA advisors voting tonight to recommend emergency use authorization for Merck's anti-viral drug to treat COVID-19. How big a deal is it?

SCHAFFNER: Well, it is a kind of big deal because it was a split vote. They're a little cautious because the effectiveness was okay but not great about 30% protection against evolving into more serious disease, and they still had some cautions about potential side effects. Their notion was that women who were pregnant or thinking about becoming pregnant probably shouldn't take advantage of this. We don't have enough information yet. So, not quite as big a deal as we thought maybe a week ago.

LEMON: Well, you have to take the pill within five days of being infected. That makes testing key. Are you concerned about that because the U.S. has had a lot of trouble getting testing up to speed?

SCHAFFNER: Yeah, you bet, Don. We haven't done nearly enough testing. The Europeans have testing widely and freely available. We need much more of that. I think this administration is going to promote much more widespread testing and it would be certainly useful as an additional intervention for us to get ahead of COVID.

LEMON: You know, as well there should be a lot of Americans who are worried about this new variant. If you've been vaccinated and boosted, is there anything else that you should be doing now? I guess masking up as well.

SCHAFFNER: Well, the folks who haven't been vaccinated should be vaccinated and that includes children age five and older. Everybody else who is eligible for boosting should do that. When we go into public places, we should wear our masks.

And if you have family gatherings and other gatherings that you can control, why not get a test before you have that Christmas dinner or something like that, particularly if there are older people present with underlying illnesses or immunocompromised person? That will increase your sense of comfort and decrease your risk of getting infected.

LEMON: If it has been more than six months since your second shot and you haven't gotten a booster, should you still be considered fully vaccinated?

SCHAFFNER: Well, at that -- with each additional month, your protection begins to wane somewhat. So, if it's been longer than that, get your booster tomorrow. That's clear. One other thing, remember, we're all concerned about Omicron. It's in the news. What is in every community today in the United States is Delta. And our vaccines protect against Delta. Between now and Christmas, Delta is going to cause much more disease than Omicron will.

LEMON: Doctor, thank you so much. I got boosted. I'm still here. Some people are probably not happy about that but --


SCHAFFNER: I'm happy about it.

LEMON: It's all good. No side effects. Had a little bit of a sore arm but it was all good. Thank you, doctor. Be well.

SCHAFFNER: Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you.

SCHAFFNER: Bye, bye.

LEMON: Former President Barack Obama encouraging young Americans to get the COVID vaccine, tweeting out photos today of himself and Dr. Fauci visiting an elementary school in the nation's capital as some children were getting the vaccine, many with their parents on hand.

Obama telling the kids who are afraid of needles, he doesn't like getting shots either but does it to stay healthy, and saying that the best way to protect children from COVID-19, of course, is vaccination.


The Supreme Court hears oral arguments tomorrow in a case that could result in the repeal of Roe v. Wade. Is 50 years of precedent at stake?


LEMON: The Supreme Court will hear arguments tomorrow on a Mississippi law that bans abortions after 15 weeks. So, will this court go against nearly 50 years of precedent to strike down Roe v. Wade?

Joining me now to discuss is Kim Wehle. She is a former federal prosecutor and the author of "How to Read the Constitution and Why."


Also with us, former U.S. Attorney Harry Litman. Good evening to both of you.

Kim, I'm going to start with you. Mississippi law would ban almost all abortions after 15 weeks and penalizes doctors who violate it. It has been struck down by two federal courts. So, what about this court that makes it such a threat to -- this case, I should say, that makes it such a threat to Roe v. Wade?

KIM WEHLE, AUTHOR, PROFESSOR OF LAW AT UNIVERSITY OF BALTIMORE SCHOOL OF LAW: Because the court didn't have to take this case at all, Don. It could have just said listen. Roe versus Wade sets the red line at 24 weeks around there which is viability. And this is clearly in violation of Wade -- Roe versus Wade. There's nothing for the court to do here other than enforce the law.

The fact that the court took the case, it took months to consider whether to take it on these circumstances, is troubling. And in addition, I think it is notable that Mississippi, when it first filed its petition asking the court to take the case, made clear or at least stated it was not interested in seeking to overrule Roe versus Wade.

But that position changed once Amy Coney Barrett was put on the United States Supreme Court. Now, it is asking for a complete reversal of Roe and the secondary case of planned parenthood versus Casey, which means really obliterating a constitutional right.

Normally, Don, we have these rights, government has interest in infringing on the rights, and the court will balance how to manage that. What they're asking is to take the right away completely. That is really troubling for reasons beyond just abortion frankly.

LEMON: Harry, I want you to weigh in here because the Supreme Court, you know, Kim mentioned, it has resisted discussing this case 12 times. You say that suggests that there are four votes in favor of the Mississippi law. Can you explain that and which justices do you see as on the fence here?

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Sure. I actually think Kim, who put her finger exactly on it, the number one fact that they took it in the first place means there are four votes. That's how many it takes to grant in favor of reinstating the Mississippi law. As she says, it had been struck down. Now, we have this intriguing fact. They did it again and again and again, way more than I've ever been that are with.

And I clerked there for a couple of years. That suggests strongly to me there are other possible implications. But it really suggests that the four, who were ready to strike it down and presumably still are, we're not certain about where a fifth might stand.

And so, the question is, are there four votes to reinstate the statute, which, as Kim said, would be tantamount to getting rid of Roe and Casey, and one is on the fence. We'll have a better idea of that tomorrow. It would have to be either Kavanaugh or Barrett, and I think Barrett.

One more quick point, I think though it would, in essence, eviscerate Roe v. Wade and Casey because they are inextricably opposed, the court may be very interested in pretending otherwise. That is in upholding the statute and giving lip service to some continuing abortion rights, even as they allow Mississippi's to go into effect.

That, of course, would invite bedlam because you would have state after state pushing the envelope and this court having to call balls and strikes with no line, like viability, to use for any kind of coherent judgment.

LEMON: Okay, listen, just for clarity, and for the late folks, because I want people at home to understand exactly what could happen. Could the Supreme Court, Harry, find abortion unconstitutional on a national level based on this case or is it limited to the issue of whether a state can ban abortion?

LITMAN: It absolutely could. As Kim said, they would go right a frontal assault, Roe v. Wade, bankrupt 50 years, get rid of it, get rid of it, get rid of it. So, they could certainly do that. They also could uphold the statute, which would be like striking down Roe, but make it sound as if they're just weakening it rather than completely eliminating it.

LEMON: Kim, Roe has been the law of the land since 1973. Can you take a step back and talk about what this would mean for the lives of women in many states that would move quickly to put in, you know, place similar bans, and could a state pass a law banning a woman from traveling to another state where abortion would remain legal?

WEHLE: Well, that slippery slope is my sort of compelling question here.

LEMON: Look at what's happening in Texas, right?

WEHLE: Right. Texas is literally -- there is no abortion rights. Roe was kind of de facto overruled in Texas. That's what makes this so dangerous. There are approximately 26 states that are poised to ban abortion if Roe gets overturned.


And just to be clear, Don, this is from the 14th Amendment, the United States Constitution. That's a post-civil war, antislavery amendment. It's about obliterating the brutalities of enslaving people where half of enslaved people that moved through interstate were separated from spouses, were separated from parents. Of course, they were brutalized physically. The idea that somehow only enumerated things in the Constitution are protected is really scary.

LEMON: Got it. It got to be the last word.

WEHLE: It says nothing about marriage. It says nothing about contraception. It says nothing about educating your children. This is a slippery slope that I think the court just should not wade into at this moment.

LEMON: Kim, thank you. Harry, thank you. I appreciate it. I'll see you guys soon. We'll be watching tomorrow.

LITMAN: Thanks, Don. Thanks, Kim.

LEMON: Thank you for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.