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Don Lemon Tonight

ABC News Suspends Whoopi Goldberg; Former V.P.'s Top Aide Met With House Committee; President Biden Wants To Hear Senate's Opinion; Donald Trump Use His Power To Subvert Election Results; Former V.P. Careful Of His Words And Actions. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired February 01, 2022 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST (on camera): The news continues. Let's turn things over now to Don and DON LEMON TONIGHT.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST (on camera): Thank you very much, Anderson. This is DON LEMON TONIGHT.

And we have some breaking news just in to CNN. The story that we first brought you last night on this very program. ABC has suspended Whoopi Goldberg for two weeks in the wake of her comments on The View yesterday, claiming the Holocaust was not about race.

Again, ABC news suspending Whoopi Goldberg for two weeks in the wake of her comments on The View yesterday, claiming the Holocaust was not about race. I'm going to speak with someone who was on The View with her just today, to get how he feels. I'm talking about Jonathan Greenblatt at the ADL. To see what he feels, how he feels about the suspension and his appearance today. What Whoopi has had to say. That's coming up straight ahead, so stay tuned for that.

Plus, it is a really big deal, a really big deal that in 2022, the first day of Black History Month to make -- to make good on a pledge. To put the first Black female justice on the Supreme Court, right? Well, apparently, it is, and Republicans heads are exploding again. It's discrimination. It's affirmative action. It's politicizing the court. I'm going to break all of this down for you to show the hypocrisy on all of this. OK? Again, these are facts.

So, think about that for a minute. They are openly outraged by one thing, and really one thing only. The fact that the nominee will be a Black woman. They know nothing else about her. Nothing. Nobody does. She hasn't -- because she hasn't even been chosen yet.

But they are not willing to wait until they even know the littlest bit about her qualifications. They are not willing to give the president the benefit of the doubt. They don't care that he promises the nominee will have extraordinary character, experience, and integrity. Roll the tape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: The person I will nominate will be someone with extraordinary qualifications, character, experience, and integrity. And that person will be the first Black woman ever nominated to the United States Supreme Court.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): They are screaming bloody murder because she will be a Black woman. How dare the president keep his campaign promise and nominate the first Black woman to the highest court the land? How dare he?

After all, there has been 108 white men, two Black men, five women, four of them white, and one Latina. But that's not stopping Ted Cruz from being triggered by the whole thing. Or maybe he's just trigger to try to get some political advantage out of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): It is wrong to discriminate based on race. And when Joe Biden throws out a quota that the only people he will consider for this nomination are African-American women, he is, number one, rejecting, regardless of merits, everybody else. Whether they are white or black or Hispanic or Native American. He is saying nobody else doesn't matter, your credentials doesn't matter, your background doesn't matter who you are. I, Joe Biden, will discriminate based on race.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): And well, then they're Susan Collins, doubling down on her insistence that President Biden is politicizing the court by doing just what President Reagan did more than 40 years ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R-ME): If you go back and look at the show and what I said is, I felt that diversity benefits the Supreme Court. And that I thought it would be great to have a woman of color, a Black woman on the court. I do not think the president handled this as well as he could have. By making a pledge to -- during his campaign.

UNKNOWN: But President Reagan did that as well.

COLLINS: President Reagan said one of his Supreme Court justices would be a woman. It's -- you're skipping over what he actually said.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): There's always a videotape, so let's go to it again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RONALD REAGAN, FRMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I am announcing today that one of those first Supreme Court vacancies in my administration will be filled by the most qualified woman I can possibly find. One who meets the high standards I would demand for all court appointments. It's time for a woman to sit among our highest jurists.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[22:04:58]

LEMON (on camera): And why did Ronald Reagan do that? Politics. Stu Spencer who is Reagan's chief strategist telling the L.A. Times, Reagan support with women was slipping in 1980. In part, because of his opposition to abortion rights and the proposed equal rights amendment.

And I quote here. "It was not an ideological decision at all." Going on to say, it was all about, quote, "seeking a solution to his deficit problem with women." So, the reason Reagan, Ronald Reagan chose a woman justice was because he had a problem with female voters. That is politics. Listen again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REAGAN: I'm announcing today that one of the first Supreme Court vacancies in my administration will be filled by the most qualified woman I can possibly find.

BIDEN: If I'm elected president and have an opportunity to appoint someone to the courts, it will be -- I will point the first Black woman to the court.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): What's the difference? What is the difference? It sure seems like some people are afraid of black women, that's what it seems like. And with that, happy Black History Month, everybody.

And what do we have as we mark the history in this country of people who look like me? Let's see. There is the possibility that possibly manufactured outrage over the President of United States vowing to nominate the first Black woman to the Supreme Court. Apparently, some people would have you believe writing historical wrongs is actually discrimination and or affirmative action, take your pick.

That, as historically black colleges and universities across the country of have had to lockdown or postpone classes over bomb threats. At least 19 in the past two days. The FBI reportedly working with law enforcement.

And with all of this going on, to January 6 now. The committee is zeroing in on Pence world. The former vice president's chief counsel, Greg Jacob, meeting with the committee today. And he is a key witness. He was with the then vice president at the capitol on January 6th. When he was forced to run for his life as rioters chanted hang Mike Pence.

It seems like Pence loyalists wouldn't be talking to the committee without at least tacit approval from him. So, what do they know? And what are they telling about what the then president and his cronies were up to? What do they know? And what are they telling about the plot to overturn the election?

Meanwhile, you've got to wonder just what Mitch McConnell is doing? Saying exactly what the former president doesn't want him to say. That the election was decided on December 14th, and that he's not in favor of pardons like the former president was floating over the weekend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), SENATE MINORITY LEADER: The election of 2020 was decided December the 14th of 2020 when the Electoral College certified the winner of the election. What we saw here on January the 6th was an effort to prevent the peaceful transfer of power from one administration to another which had never happened before in our country.

My view is, I would not be in favor of shortening any of the sentences for any of the people who pleaded guilty to crimes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): That's all well and good. As far as it goes, right? Note that McConnell is only talking about people who pleaded guilty. But let's remember, minutes after he voted to let the disgraced former president who incited an insurrection off the impeachment took, he took to the Senate floor and he said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCONNELL: There is no question, none. That President Trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): What has Mitch McConnell actually done? You can't have it both ways. What he actually done? If you condemn what the former president did, how can you refused to hold him responsible? Our democracy demands more, demands that we hold accountable the people who tried to destroy it.

President Biden says that he wants to work with the Senate to choose a nominee for the Supreme Court, but Republicans are ginning up outrage over his vow to choose a Black woman. How is that going to work out?

Plus, why ABC news suspended Whoopi Goldberg from The View? I'm going to talk to someone who was on the show with her today.

[22:10:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): President Biden consulting with key senators on both sides of the aisle as he begins a process of choosing a nominee for the Supreme Court. But because he is pledging to fill the soon-to- be vacant seat with the first Black woman on the court, some politicians on the right are falling all over themselves an outrage.

I want to bring in now CNN political commentator, Ashley Allison, senior political analyst Kirsten Powers, the author of "Saving Grace." The phenomenal book, "Saving Grace."

Good evening to both of you. Thanks for joining.

Ashley, President Biden is telling senators that he wants to work with both sides to choose a person to nominate to the Supreme Court. How challenging will that be when so much of what we are hearing from the right is outrage over Biden's pledge to nominate a Black woman without even knowing which Black woman he is going to nominate?

ASHLEY ALLISON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well first, happy Black History Month, Don. I think --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: You took the words out of my mouth. I was going to say it and then I was halfway into your intro. I said, maybe I shouldn't. But anyway, happy Black History Month to both of you.

ALLISON: Thank you. I think to your question, though, it's going to be extremely challenging. One, because Republicans have really not shown good faith effort to want to have bipartisan relationships with this administration to date, with the exception of the infrastructure bill.

But two, you know, we are seeing racism play out in America in a very traditional sense. And what I mean by that is, racism has a hypocrisy in it. It has hate in it, it has discrimination in it. And often, when people of color or Black people say they experience racism, they are often dismissed because they are being -- they are being told that they are being too sensitive or that there aren't clear facts.

[22:15:08]

Well, everyone has said Ronald Reagan, a white man who was running for president, said the exact same thing that Joe Biden did. A white man who is running for president. And that was to commit to have a woman on the court. One exception is that Joe Biden used the word black.

And so, when you look at the facts, you realize that the reason Republicans are up in arms about this is because we are talking about race and particularly, a Black woman. So, I don't suspect -- this woman to be the most qualified person in the history of a nominee for Supreme Court and I still think that they would deploy some of their tactics to try and block her and smear her name.

LEMON: Kyrsten, how do I say this? You know, people don't get upset -- people say that this is not an appointment to the Supreme Court is not, it should not be politicized. When the right picks people based on their conservatism on their party, the left picks people based on their liberalism on their party. It is inherently a political process.

And then you have someone like Ted Cruz who is calling Biden's pledge offensive and insulting. You have Senator Roger Wicker who is saying that Biden's nominee was a beneficiary of affirmative action. Mike Rounds says that it hurts the nominee's credibility. Senator Josh Hawley says that it's a mistake to basically say that you have a quota. What is it, what is this is about?

KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I mean, it's political opportunism.

POWERS: I mean, what it's really is about is --

LEMON: It's riling up the base. What's going on?

POWERS: It's -- well, it is riling up the base. But I think it's also telling us something about them. If you are a person who hears, I'm going to nominate a Black woman to the Supreme Court and the first thing you think of is this is not going to be the most qualified person available, you have a problem. Right?

There is something wrong with the way you see the world. Because those two things are not in contradiction. It doesn't -- you know, it goes without saying that the person is going to be qualified. It's the Supreme Court. I would go a step further and say, if it's a Black woman, she's not only going to be qualified, she's going to be more qualified.

Because in order for a Black woman to get to the place that any of his nominees have gotten, potential nominees have gotten to, it requires that they not be just as good as the white men, it requires them to be better. So, something is wrong if you hear these words and you automatically assume that it's not going to be the most qualified person.

Why -- what you are essentially saying is, I don't believe that there is a Black woman in this country that's qualified to be on the Supreme Court.

LEMON: There is always a first though, Kirsten. There's a first Jewish justice, Brandeis, Louis Brandeis, the first Black justice, Thurgood Marshall, the first woman, Sandra Day O'Connor.

POWERS: Yes.

LEMON: The first Italian-American Antonin Scalia, and yet there is something clearly triggering about the first Black woman to be on the court.

POWERS: Well, I think, look, I think there is an attitude here that this is a court that really is supposed to be for white men. And it was for a long time. And even if you look at the comments that Senator Wicker made about Justice Sotomayor, you know, saying basically, that whoever Biden is going to choose is going to be like her. Like there is something uniquely wrong with her. Right? What sets her apart from the other people who are on the court? And

it's the fact that she's not white. Or that she's not -- you know, she is -- she is Hispanic. And so, I think that they are clearly showing us what they believe.

And by the way, can you find a single clip of Ted Cruz complaining about racism against a black person? Because the only time I ever hear him talk about it is about this allege like, anti-white racism. So, they pretend like they care so much about racism but where are they for Black Lives Matter? Where are they when black men are being gunned down in the street? They are nowhere. But he's literally talking about white people being discriminated against. It's insane.

LEMON: Ashley, you mentioned Ronald Reagan speaking of white women, right? Ronald Reagan nominating a woman, Sandra Day O'Connor. And of the last president that they so revered, Donald Trump saying that he was going to pick a woman to fill Ruth Bader Ginsburg's seat, which was Amy Coney Barrett. Why is this any different?

ALLISON: Because they're talking about black women. And they want to treat us different. To Kirsten's point, one of them said, well, black women only make up 6 percent of the country. Well, right. They are saying that they don't think that 6 percent matters. They don't think Latino people matter. They don't think poor people matter. They don't think other than white men matter and they don't have, they shouldn't deserve the opportunity to sit on the highest court of the land.

[22:20:04]

The other thing that I think is really comical about this is Republicans saying that Joe Biden politicizes. Sure, they were running for office. It's politics. But the Republicans are masterminds behind politicizing Supreme Court nominations.

When Justice Scalia passed away, President Obama couldn't even get a breath out before Mitch McConnell politicize that nomination and said he wouldn't even give the person a vote. President Obama didn't say what type of person it was, and that that was because there was a political -- a presidential election.

When Justice Ginsburg died and they nominated Justice Barrett. And they rushed that nomination through in historical time period. It's because there was an election and that was at the leadership of Mitch McConnell. So, to say that Joe Biden is the one politicizing a Supreme Court nomination is a joke.

LEMON: Thank you both. I appreciate it. Good to see you.

So, breaking tonight, as I said at the top of the show, Whoopi Goldberg suspended from The View after saying yesterday the Holocaust wasn't about race. I'm going to speak with someone who was on The View as she apologized for those comments this morning. That's next.

[22:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON (on camera): OK. This is our breaking news tonight. Whoopi

Goldberg suspended from The View for two weeks. That's according to ABC News. The president of ABC News saying that she asked Whoopi to reflect and learn about the impact of her comments. Comments she made saying that the Holocaust isn't about race. Whoopi did appear on The View today and made this apology. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WHOOPI GOLDBERG, CO-HOST, ABC: I said something that I feel a responsibility for not leaving unexamined. Because my words upset so many people, which was never my intention. And I understand why now. And for that, I am deeply, deeply grateful, because the information I got was really helpful and helped me understand some different things.

And while discussing how in Tennessee school board unanimously voted to remove a graphic novel about the Holocaust, I said that the Holocaust wasn't about race. And it was instead about men's humanity to men. But it is indeed about race. Because Hitler and the Nazis considered Jews to be an inferior race.

Now words matter and mine are no exception. I regret my comments as I said, and I stand corrected. I also stand with the Jewish people as they know and you all know, because I've always done that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): So, after her apology, she and the other hosts of The View spoke with Jonathan Greenblatt. Jonathan is the CEO and national director of the Anti-Defamation League. And he joins me now.

I watched it today, Jonathan. Thank you for joining us and I appreciate you coming on.

Let's have this conversation. First of all, I have to ask about the news now, the breaking news. ABC News suspending Whoopi for two weeks. What do you think of that decision?

JONATHAN GREENBLATT, CEO, ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE: Well, look. Whoopi Goldberg is literally one of the most visible women in television. The View is watched by millions and millions of people every single day. And her comments did cause tremendous confusion and hurt, particularly in the Jewish community which, think about it, Don, it's less than a week after Holocaust Remembrance Day.

It's but, you know, 10 days since a rash of anti-Semitic flying across the country. It's two weeks after the hostage taking in Texas. It's six months after Jews were beaten in broad daylight by, you know, anti-Israel activists.

There are a lot of reasons why the Jewish community is concerned. But for me, she apologized last night online. And then she did so again this morning. You know? And I accept her apology. I know she's been a friend to the Jewish community all throughout her career. And I respect that and appreciate it. I can't comment on ABC News' internal process. But what I will say is

that I hope Whoopi can use the next two weeks for a process of introspection and learning. Right? I don't think Holocaust Remembrance Day should be one day of the year. We can learn about the Holocaust 365 days, just like today.

It's the first day of Black History Month, Don. But I don't think we should confine or thinking about black history to just 28 days. So, let's hope that she can use this time, use this opportunity and use her amazing platform to educate herself and to share what she learns with her audience and with the country at large.

Visit the Holocaust Museum. You know, meet with survivors, work with the ADL. There are lots of ways Whoopi can make a huge difference. And I hope she'll do that.

LEMON: Here's -- does intent matter? I mean, words matter, of course. But does intent matter, Jonathan? Especially in this situation?

GREENBLATT: Well, look, of course intent matters. I mean, it's really important that people say what they mean and they mean what they say. And so, again, I think what she was talking yesterday about these issues, and I think she really, again, created a kind of confusion and hurt.

Because the Holocaust was absolutely about race. It was a racialized anti-Semitism, Don. And again, that might not fit with the way that some people think about race the way all of us as Americans have to confront it in this country, in this time when Black Americans are still dealing with the legacy of Jim Crow and enslavement and systematic oppression.

[22:30:03]

And yet, race is a social construct. And it shows up differently in different societies. And so, again, if we look back to Germany, the Nazis believed that they were the master race and Jews were subhuman race. And they literally --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Jews are the inferior race.

GREENBLATT: -- wage a war --

LEMON: That's what they believed.

GREENBLATT: Yes.

LEMON: Yes.

GREENBLATT: And they waged a war of extermination against the Jewish people because of this belief in race. That's undeniable. It's what happened.

LEMON: I want to get through a lot here and I don't want to be rude. I'm not -- but I want to get through a lot because I have a lot of questions to ask you. Because I do think that this is a teachable moment, right?

GREENBLATT: Yes.

LEMON: You said you stand in support of Whoopi --

GREENBLATT: Yes.

LEMON: -- because of her history. But you don't support the words --

GREENBLATT: Yes.

LEMON: -- the way she said it. And that's understandable. And I think there can be nuance here. So, let's start there. You -- we, so, we spoke with you last night. This was after Whoopi issued the statement, the apology. But before her previously -- that was before previously taped interview with Stephen Colbert before that aired. I want to play just --

GREENBLATT: Yes.

LEMON: -- part of that, so watch this, Jonathan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOLDBERG: If the Klan is coming down the street and I am standing with a Jewish friend and neither one -- well, I'm going to run. But if my friend decides not to run, they will get passed by, most times. Because you can't tell who is Jewish. You don't know. It's not something that people say, that person is Jewish or this person is Jewish. And so that's what I was trying to explain.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): So, Colbert did push back in her bringing up that Nazis marches (Ph) with yellow star so that they could easily be recognized. Now if you look at your screen, you can see a photo, this is from the 1940s, it shows just that. It was taken in the Lodz ghetto in Poland. Right?

How dangerous is the perspective that if you can't see someone's race on the outside, then they are safe from persecution? So, you think that that's dangerous?

GREENBLATT: We know that's dangerous. And it's flat out wrong. So, a few things, the Nazi Nuremberg laws that sub -- that regarded Jews as subhuman were based in part on the way that the laws about race existed in this country. That one drop of blood made a person Jewish. Like they say, one drop of blood made a person African-American, or black in this country.

So, indeed, you can't see necessarily who is Black or Jewish, this is a social construct. And let me say something else, Don, let's dispel the myth that all Jews are white. There are millions of Jews of color. Jews who are black, and who are brown, who are Asian. Jews of all hues.

So just because someone presents as white or black doesn't mean you know their identity. And so, I really think we just need to dispel this myth, you know, that the Holocaust was white on white crime. Give me a break. This was a racist, horrific act of brutality. And if we think about those KKK people, Don, who in (Inaudible) will be chasing us down the street. Let me tell you. They would chase her and me.

Because anti-Semitism is at the beating heart of white supremacy. Blacks and Jews, we have so much in common, particularly that we have faced bigotry through the ages, and again, let's hope, Don, that through this moment we can find ways to work together to face the hate that threatens all of us.

LEMON: Let me ask you, because as I am honestly, you know, and this is in real-time, as I'm interviewing you, I have people texting me, Jewish friends texting me, one of them is saying, censorship at its finest. I understood what she was trying to say, it was clumsy. But I don't think it was malevolent. What do you say to about?

GREENBLATT: Well, I don't know who your friend is, and I don't know exactly what the context of the tweet is, but let me just say this. We sometimes have people in public places who can say clumsy things about race, or faith, or gender. I don't believe in cancel culture. I like the phrase that my friend Nick Cannon uses, we need counsel culture.

We shouldn't cancel Whoopi because she made the mistake, even if she made the mistake again on Colbert. You know, in the Jewish faith, Don, we have a concept called teshuva. And teshuva means redemption. It means all of us have the power to admit when we do wrong, and to commit to doing better.

I heard Whoopi say that she is committed to doing better, I accept that apology with the sincerity with that she delivered it. Again, to my face this morning on The View. And I'm committed, ADL is committed to work with her, and to work with others who want to really use this as a teachable moment.

LEMON: You know, I want to -- this whole conversation, right, started with the book "Maus," right, the Pulitzer Prize-winning book --

GREENBLATT: Yes.

LEMON: -- "Maus." And it is just about what people don't know about anti-Semitism.

[22:35:04]

Jonathan, there's a poll that most people, I shouldn't say most people, many people have no idea what the term anti-Semitism means in this country. So, we need a lot of education in this country.

GREENBLATT: We do.

LEMON: What's the -- what's the parting words here when people say well, if you ask, you know, a lot of people in the street, you know, do you believe anti-Semitism exist, what is anti-Semitic, and so on. Are Jewish people is it a race, or is it Judaism or religion or race, what have you? I think many people would have no idea, so what do we do in this, what do we do now from here?

GREENBLATT: Look, anti-Semitism -- look, we are never going to beat anti-Semitism or hate in any kind, by arresting people or relitigating. We need to change hearts and minds. It starts with education. Right? It's the oldest hatred and it's this conspiracy theory, Don, that's lasted for thousands of years and led to tremendous suffering for Jewish people and death, you know, over time. Whether in Europe or the Middle East, when you demonize and delegitimized Jewish people or the Jewish state, you create the sparks for violence and hate, and that's just got to stop.

The reality is, Jews are less than 2 percent of the U.S. population, Don, and we are nearly 60 percent of the victims of faith-elated hate crimes

LEMON: Hate crime. Right.

GREENBLATT: The numbers are astonishing what we've seen. And just there -- where about 115 percent increase over the last five years. Jews have been targeted in our synagogues, in our supermarkets, and the places where we live. So, anti-Semitism is a real issue for our community.

And yet, the way we're going to beat this back, is realizing that our safety is tied to both security and solidarity. Calling out the hate when it happens, and educating and working with others to create a better future for everyone.

This is the thing, Don, and I've said this before on your show. Anti- Semitism is not a Jewish problem. It's an American problem. It's a corrosive kind of hate that erodes the foundation of our society. And there's a through line from Charlottesville to Capitol Hill, we've got to confront this when it happens, we've got to do it with conviction.

And, again, I hope for Whoopi's sake, that I'll have a chance, ADL can work with her in the weeks and months and years ahead, and I hope that your friends at The View, our friends at The View, you know, they're looking for a fifth host, I'm kind of busy with my day job, I don't know about you, but I hope they'll think about a Jewish host for that slot.

Like they focus a lot on representation, but they've never had a Jewish host in years. This would be a great way for The View to bring in a Jewish perspective, and to address these issues on a regular basis. It could really be a win-win for them if they get it right.

LEMON: Listen, I think that a good word for the moment is empathy, I think especially people, marginalized people, people of color, people who are traditionally discriminated against.

GREENBLATT: Yes.

LEMON: When these moments happen, we need to be allies. And we need to be empathetic, and we need to open our ears instead of our mouths and listen. It is my job to ask the questions, and I think you also have to remember, too. Look, I have to -- I'm going to say it, I thought what Whoopi said was clumsy. Do I think she's anti -- an anti- Semite, I don't think. Do I think that she can learn some things? Absolutely. I think that she can.

GREENBLATT: Yes.

LEMON: But I think in this moment we need to think about intent. We need to think who our allies are, and we need to -- there's a difference between someone who is marching on the street with a Swastika, or you know, a crazy Auschwitz t-shirt, then someone who is on a show called The View. Right? Because I say I'm on the show every night, and I say things that I regret all the time, and sometimes it comes out.

(CROSSTALK)

GREENBLATT: Sure. (Inaudible) do that.

LEMON: And I want to pull it back. Right? And I think as long as we can learn from that, and if the apology is sincere, I think we should allow people to move on and not, so called, cancel them. But we have to learn our lesson and we have to take --

(CROSSTALK)

GREENBLATT: Counsel --

LEMON: We got to take the consequences for it.

GREENBLATT: That's right.

LEMON: Right.

GREENBLATT: Counsel, not cancel. Let's -- and it seems like she is ready to commit to doing better, and I'm excited to help with that process.

LEMON: I'm so glad we have people like you here. And let's continue this conversation.

(CROSSTALK)

GREENBLATT: And Don, like, I'm glad -- I'm glad you're hosting this conversation, Don, because this is what America needs. Right? Reasoned, fact based, empathetic conversation, that's how we move forward.

LEMON: Yes. Thank you, Jonathan. I appreciate it. We'll have you back. Thank you so much. I appreciate your candor. Thanks for coming on.

GREENBLATT: Thank you, sir.

LEMON: We have a lot more to cover, we'll be right back. [22:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): Damning behind the scenes details about how the former president and his inner circle scramble to keep him in power. CNN has learned aides drafted two versions of an executive order to seize election machines in states that trump lost.

At first, directing the Department of Defense to seize the machines. The second directing Homeland security to do it, and had they've been issued, it would have caused a crisis never before seen in American history by directing military and federal agents to seize voting equipment for political purposes.

The New York Times is reporting that the then president himself was involved, and I quote here, "President Donald J. Trump directed his lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani to make a remarkable call. Mr. Trump wanted him to ask the Department of Homeland Security if it could legally take control of voting machines in key swing states."

Now sources are saying that the idea came from two retired military officers, former Trump national security adviser Michael Flynn and army Colonel Phil Waldron. But it's not clear who wrote the orders. And today, another top aide to the former Vice President Mike Pence, Greg Jacob met with the January 6 committee.

[22:44:58]

Joining me now to discuss all of this is CNN senior legal analyst and the former U.S. attorney, Preet Bharara. He is the author of "Justice Is: A Guide for Young Truth Seekers."

Preet, good evening to you. That's a lot, that was a mouthful all of the developments that are coming out of this invest -- the January 6 committee and the investigation. This is important because in totality it's extremely frightening, a President of the United States was considering trying to seize election machines, to keep himself in power. It's an unhinged attempt, really to burned down democracy. Can the law him accountable?

PREET BHARARA, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, let's see. There are a lot of processed underway. I continue to find it amazing, or maybe I shouldn't, that 13 months after the events of January 6th, we have new information coming to light that not only talks about people around the president who did things in the former president's name but with his knowledge.

And one of the great questions here, when you're talking about accountability at the top of the food chain, on the part of the commander-in-chief of United States of America, is what did he know? When did he know it and what did he ask people to do?

And these new reports put right-of-center. Not as someone who is speaking in code and indirectly suggesting, you know, go and fight, the kinds of things that his defenders have said. Make his speech on January 6, just mere political speech and not incitement.

We keep hearing time and time again in recent times, and we'll probably get more revelations in the coming days and weeks as well, that it was Trump's idea to do these things. We now have evidence that Trump was interested in having three different cabinet agencies seize voting machines.

Not mild talk on January 6th, you know, protest, make your voice heard. But to seize voting machinery in the absence of any evidence that there was anything wrong with that voting machinery. Including the Department of Defense, which is unheard of for the Department of Defense to do things in connection with law enforcement or elections in the country. That's what happens in banana republics, not the United States of America.

LEMON: Let's talk more about the DOD. Because we're seeing these draft orders that would've pressured the DOJ and the DHS. He had allies in the DOJ trying to do his bidding. He was doing Pence to overturn the election in Congress. Was there any part of the government that he didn't want to use to overturn a Democratic election?

BHARARA: No. In fact, he is the head of the federal government. You know, we have a federal system in this country. You have the federal government and your state and local governments. There's also evidence that not only was Trump trying to pressure federal agencies that are presumably under his command and control to do things that were unlawful and unpatriotic and un-American. But also making calls to Georgia state officials and also trying to get other law enforcement agencies within states, local -- local agencies, local institutions, to do his bidding.

So, he had a long list. Maybe we don't know the whole list at this point, and hopefully we will and the 1/6 committee will get to the bottom of it. But he had a long list of levers that he was pulling in his position as President of United States. To, in his words, by the way, these are his words now. To overturn the election through Mike Pence or other means if necessary.

LEMON: You know, he is, Trump is now openly admitting that he wanted Pence to overturn the election. He is saying that he is considering pardoning the January 6th rioters if he is reelected. Is he gaslighting the country by admitting to the coup attempt? Like, you know, this was somehow normal?

BHARARA: It's a little bit of his M.O. During various junctures during the campaign, during his presidency, you know, people asked the question, how does this compare to Nixon did? Some people say it's worse, some people say it's comparable. What is different is the M.O. He's not hiding a lot of the things that he did.

And he, I think he has this practice of trying to own the thing, releasing that call with the president of Ukraine that led to his first impeachment. Saying it was a perfect call, saying that he was doing these things. I think he's trying to send a message to his base and to others that if he saying it out loud, what's wrong with that? He had the power and authority to do so. What's wrong with it? But

when he doesn't, I think appreciate is that it gives people, prosecutors, members of that committee, ammunition to read what was his state of mind on January 6. If he's happy at what these people did, and he's thinking about pardoning them, that tells you that he wanted them to do what they did, which was an attempt to overturn the election.

LEMON: Another top aide to the former vice president, Mike Pence. Greg Jacob, I mentioned him a moment ago, met with the January 6 committee today. His former chief of staff, Marc Short, gave an interview last week. Would they have done this if Pence didn't approve?

BHARARA: I don't think so. You know, the speculation, I think it's reasonable speculation that Mike Pence is trying to thread the needle of maintaining some -- I don't know what kind of relationship he can maintain with the former president. But maybe at least not run directly afoul of him. And the base --

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LEMON: Well, they say he's admitted he hasn't spoken to him since the summer. But go on, Preet.

[22:55:04]

BHARARA: Yes. So, I don't know -- I don't know what kind of relationship he's trying to preserve. Most likely, he's trying to preserve some kind of relationship with future voters because maybe he still has presidential aspirations. But I think under no circumstances with these folks be testifying if Mike Pence wasn't OK with it.

And it seems like what the former vice president is doing is trying to have his cake and eat it, too. In other words, he doesn't want to come and testify. He doesn't want to appear before the committee and say bad things about Donald Trump's actions and statements. And this is a little bit of a halfway, meet them in the middle so that his aides can be proxies for that.

And by the way, the question often gets asked, you know, what happens if Pence doesn't testify, or some other people don't testify? I think he should. I think maybe he will be compelled to do so. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. But it's not nothing that these very, very close aides who by the way, have a lot of firsthand knowledge of communications between Mike Pence and various other folks and between Mike Pence and the former president, and they are willing to say so. And I think some of them have papered over.

In other words, they have documents and contemporaneous notes that they took at the time. So, even at the end of the day, Mike Pence doesn't take the witness stand before the committee. The committee will have a lot of information about what Mike Pence was thinking, saying, and doing. And simultaneously, what the former president was thinking -- was thinking, saying, and doing. And that's not a small thing. LEMON: Preet, thank you, sir. I appreciate it. See you soon.

BHARARA: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: The 2022 Winter Olympics is set to kick off this Friday in Beijing. And the FBI has a warning for athletes.

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LEMON (on camera): Tonight, the FBI issuing an important warning to American athletes traveling to Beijing for the winter Olympics this month. Leave personal cell phones at home and take temporary burner phones instead. And the reason is simple. Counterintelligence officials warn that personal electronic devices can be hacked and that athletes are at risk of becoming victims of Chinese espionage efforts.

In fact, the FBI director, Christopher Wray says that no other country presents a broader threat to America's ideas, innovation, and economic security than China.

Up next, the former president is not even trying to hide it. His own words showing that he was doing anything he could to stay in power. And the evidence is starting to come out.

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