Return to Transcripts main page

Don Lemon Tonight

Liz Cheney Responds To RNC Censure Resolution, Sad Day For The Party Of Lincoln; Trump Endorsements Spark Frustration In The GOP; ISIS Leader Killed In U.S. Special Forces Raid; President Biden's Second Act; CNN Poll Of Polls; Ukraine-Russia Tensions As Russia Preparing Fake Video Attack by The Ukrainians; Whoopi Goldberg Suspensions And The Conversation On Race; Leader In Battle To Stop COVID Receiving Threats. COVID Cases Trending Down In All States. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired February 03, 2022 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST (on camera): Ahead this hour, is it time for a second act? Why it might be too early to count President Biden out, that as a crack may be forming in Trump's grip on the GOP.

And Whoopi Goldberg sparking a whole new conversation in this country, what does race mean in America in 2022?

Also tonight, why a leading fighter in the battle against COVID now a nominee for a Nobel Prize is receiving death threats. He speaks out right here.

And President Biden ordering a military strike that kills the leader of ISIS.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Thanks to the bravery of our troops, this horrible terrorist leader is no more. This operation is testament to America's reach and capability to take out terrorist threats no matter where they try to hide, anywhere in the world.

I'm determined to protect the American people from terrorist threats and I'll take decisive action to protect this country. Last night's operation took a major terrorist leader off the battlefield and it sent a strong message to terrorists around the world, we will come after you and find you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Let's discuss all of this. I want to bring in CNN's senior political analyst, Mr. John Avlon. CNN political commentator Charlie Dent, he's a former Republican congressman from Pennsylvania. Good to see both of you, gentlemen. So, John, lets start with you. Liz Cheney responding tonight to the

RNC formally moving to censure her and Adam Kinzinger for their roles in the January 6 Select Committee saying, it's a sad day for the party of Lincoln. So, if you care about the truth and you care about the attack on our democracy, this is what happens, you get condemned by your own party, the Republican Party?

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (on camera): Yes, that's what happens.

LEMON: OK.

(LAUGHTER)

AVLON: You know, the amazing thing is if you look at the censure resolution that got passed, the first line is the Republican Party stands for the primary purpose is to uphold the constitution. They just officially censured the two members of their party who were doing more than any other to uphold the constitution.

Because the rest of it just turned into a cult of Trump, despite a growing evidence that he tried to overturn an election. There is -- he is the greatest threat to the constitution of any president we've ever had and they are all in for him and they are hunting for heretics. But it will be a badge of honor over time, what these two have done. And the others will be forgotten.

LEMON: I agree with you. You often say that how history is going to look, right, how the history will look on these things and how people will fair in history and I think you're always right.

AVLON: Yup. Oh, man.

LEMON: I think you're always right about that. Who's going to be on the right side of history? Charlie, the original plan was to kick Cheney and Kinzinger out of the GOP conference. So, is this a sign of the party is backing down a bit? I mean, we saw -- trying to -- we saw trying to distance him from Trump's crazy worked on Governor Youngkin in Virginia. He actually won because he kind of gave him the stiff arm.

FMR. REP. CHARLIE DENT (R-PA), CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR (on camera): Well, first, the Republican National Committee does not have the authority to throw anyone out of the House Republican conference. Only the members of the House Republican Conference can do that.

But what's so sad about this whole episode is that, you know, if the RNC really feels like they have to censure someone, which I don't think they should be in the business of, but they are going to do that. Well, maybe they could have gone after Marjory Taylor Greene or Paul Gosar, somebody who has brought discredit upon the House and the party instead of going after two people who have behaved honorably and upheld their oaths of office. That's what so sad.

And what's even worst, by becoming willing hostages, the RNC to Donald Trump. They have turned the party over to Donald Trump. He has raised twice as much money as the party has. He has hurting the party. He is diverting money from them and they seemed to be good with it.

I think this is really stunning to me that the party would just surrender so easily to Donald Trump. And they're hurting themselves. And I am just astounded that they thought they think this is a good idea going after trump -- I mean, Cheney and Kinzinger while letting, you know, the problem members off the hook.

LEMON: Are they not smart enough to realize that he's taking money from them? They don't get it, I mean, Charlie?

DENT: Yeah. Diverting it. They're diverting money from the party. As far as I am concerned and further, Trump is freezing the field. He's freezing the field for the presidency with the -- the other candidates can't jump in, they feel until he makes a decision.

AVLON: How cowardly though. I mean, you would think that ambition would cause some of them to stiffen their spine just a little bit. But Charlie is exactly right. You know, here is a guy is raking in all this cash. The RNC is paying his legal fees. He is siphoning off money from the RNC. The supposed billionaire who has got a ton of -- a boat load of cash that he's raised pleasing folks, he's still taking money from the RNC that could be going to support candidates. He's causing chaos and the whole party suffered from Stockholm syndrome. That's the truth.

[23:05:13]

LEMON: Wow. Maybe they are not so bright, you know. I don't know, it just doesn't make sense to me.

CNN, John, has new reporting about how candidates that Trump -- candidates he's endorsing for the midterms are struggling with primaries, with fund-raising and in the polls. Does it show his influence is waning and apparently when he's on TV the ratings aren't as high? I say that because he cares about that so much. He uses that as a barometer of how much people love him.

AVLON: I think it shows that he's a force, he's a chaos agent. That he does not have anything resembling the Midas touch, in fact, probably the opposite, and he's causing confusion. The fact that the folks he's endorsing are not raking in the cash, and when some wonder why, some of the consultants will say and some of his reporting that they're not acting crazy enough.

That's become the barometer of success for raising money inside Trump's GOP. So, yes, it shows that the party is fractured he's grip is waning a bit, not so much that folks have the courage to their convictions to stand up and call him out and defend the constitution, other than Cheney and Kinzinger, and Larry Hogan and a panful of others. But it does show there are real fault lines and fractures inside the GOP. Donald Trump is not strong. He is weak.

LEMON: So what you have to do then, you got to say, Critical Race Theory or you have to say ban this book or don't make people feel uncomfortable when learning the truth, and then you're good, is that -- it's the election was stolen. I can run and he'll endorse me now. AVLON: Of course, well, the big lie aside, which is a form of mass

sycosis. It is -- what you just described as deflect. It is deflect and distract and try to demonize with what about-ism. And that's what they're doing. That's the campaign play and they learned it from Trump.

LEMON: Charlie, this is probably a one-word answer and I got two questions for you. Trump -- he's political (inaudible) $122 million, he said he is raising more. Any chance that he uses it to help any other candidates that folks he's pushing?

DENT: One word, doubtful.

LEMON: OK, that's it.

DENT: Very little. He's going to be using it for himself. He's going to use it for himself and whatever his causes are.

LEMON: In just the past few days, Trump said that Pence could have overturned the election, he floated pardons for the rioters who assaulted officers and stormed our Capitol and we learned that may have been directly involved in plans to seize voting machines, that's according to "Times." The Select Committee is going to be holding public hearings this spring. So, who knows what else is going to come out of this. Is Trump a ticking time bomb for the GOP?

DENT: Yes, he's diminishing -- I think he's a diminishing figure, suggesting to pardon those rioter or insurrectionists. This is hurting him. I mean, more Republicans are saying they're more loyal to the party than to Trump.

I mean, this kind of crazy stuff that he's just floated in recent days I think really harms him. I don't think he'll ever be president again. He may run again, he may get a nomination again but I don't think he'll ever be president again because of this erratic behavior. Again, it's out of bounds and I think he's doing great damage to himself.

LEMON: I think the note to some of the folks on my team today was a diminishing asset. I truly -- I think, John -- Charlie, I think you're right. John, I have to get your take on what President Biden said about Mitch McConnell this morning at the National Prayer Breakfast. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Mitch, I don't want to hurt your reputation, but we really are friends. And that is not an epiphany we're having here at the moment. You've always done exactly what you've said, you're a man of your word and you're a man of honor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: OK. So that is the most Biden thing that ever -- you know, you should stand by your friends but, I mean, is he a little out of touch about -- AVLON: Look, these are folks who have known each other for 30 years.

LEMON: And --

AVLON: And there's a different code among Senators, among honest disagreements and the degree that he acknowledged that with some of the hyper partisanship is theater, is kabuki. Look, McConnell did work with Biden on infrastructure. That is a big deal bill. Has he tried to block almost everything else? Yes, you're right. That's unfortunately normal in Washington. What's not normal is actually saying the quiet part he said out loud.

LEMON: He said he's a man of honor.

AVLON: Yeah, I think he's saying that he thinks that Mitch McConnell is a man of his words.

LEMON: I'm asking you, is he a man of honor?

AVLON: I mean, honor -- a man of honor is someone like John McCain.

LEMON: Yeah.

AVLON: You know, but, I take Biden at his word, as he would say. He's known him for 30 years.

LEMON: I get what you're saying. In this day and time when people are -- when our democracy is in peril, in order to really own that term or -- go on.

AVLON: You know what Abraham Lincoln used to say? Catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

[23:10:03]

LEMON: I don't know about that these days.

AVLON: You got to try to reach out. You got to hold -- the president in particular --

LEMON: Up to a point.

AVLON: Up to a point. They're going to fight. But the president in particular has got to reach out.

LEMON: My point is to earn the term an honorable person in this environment, really you got to be a standup person. And that they are few and far between, right?

AVLON: There are few and far between and one measure of that is whether you're willing to condemn Donald Trump out loud.

LEMON: Thank you, Charlie. Thank you, John. I appreciate that.

I want to turn now to CNN senior data reporter, Harry Enten. And senior political analyst Ron Brownstein. Good evening to both of you, gentlemen.

Ron, President Biden started the day announcing that U.S. Special Forces mission killed an ISIS leader, then he came to New York City taking on tough crime, a tough crime approach with the mayor of New York City. Are these kinds of things -- are these the kinds of things that can change a president's momentum?

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, AND SENIOR EDITOR OF THE ATLANTIC (on camera): I think the key for him changing momentum without question is changing conditions in the country itself, right? I mean, that is the principal reason I believe why his approval rating has fallen to where it is, is that people are much more dissatisfied about the underlying conditions in the country, particularly COVID and inflation than they were in the spring.

And then, Don, it's a hydraulic function. You know, I mean, as the (inaudible) people dissatisfied with the direction the country goes up, the president's (inaudible) goes down. But having said that, I think an ancillary problem for Biden, I mean, when you talk to people who conduct focus groups for both parties really is that the public really doesn't see him enough being engaged on the issues that they care about.

I mean, the White House has had a strategy generally speaking of after, you know, the omnipresence of Trump, of making him less visible, he's less in your face. And I think people, you know, like aspects of that, that he's not on Twitter, you know, throwing molotov cocktails every day.

But they also want to see the president and they want to know that he is working on the things they care about. So to that extent being in New York City today and talking about crime, which is an issue for voters is important for him and probably a model for what he needs to be doing more of between now and November.

LEMON: Data. No one looks at polls more than you. Where do things stand with President Biden's approval ratings right now?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN POLITICS SENIOR WRITER AND ANALYST (on camera): I mean, Ron was hinting at it, right? You know, looking at his overall approval rating, it's no Bueno, right, it's just 41 percent, 54 percent disapprove. And it's true on the two big issues of the day, right?

You look at COVID. Look at his approval rating there, the trend line going in the completely wrong direction, where right now what you essentially see on COVID is his approval rating was north of 50 percent. It has dropped now south of 50 percent with his disapproval rating being higher.

And if you look on the economy, you see that it is very much doing the exact same thing, whereby on COVID, you see that negative rating and right on the economy. Look at that, 39 percent approve, 56 percent disapprove. If you follow the trend line on Biden's handling on the economy, it trends, it tracks pretty much perfectly with his overall approval rating, and now both at around 40 percent. LEMON: Ron, let's talk about your new piece you have in "The

Atlantic." And it's asking does Biden have a second act? You had been looking into some of his predecessor and you say it's too early to count him out. Why is that?

BROWNSTEIN: So, look, I mean, the core question, all the numbers that Harry just noted about his approval rating, I would argue about what you would expect for a president at a moment when three quarters or more of the country is unhappy with the direction of the country or in the parlance of pollsters, they say that we are on the wrong track.

We have seen this movie before, Don. Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, all entered office at a moment of enormous dissatisfaction with the direction of the country. When they came in, there was a brief rallying of optimism but after a few months when conditions, particularly in the economy, did not improve as fast as voters expected or at least hoped, the wrong track number shot up again and as I said in hydraulic fashion their approval rating sank to somewhere around where Biden is today.

And that ultimately produced a very bad mid-term in 82 for Reagan, '94 for Clinton, 2010 for Obama. And people are counting them out saying they were (inaudible), they are one time president. But in fact, in the second half of their first term as people became more optimistic about the direction of the economy, the direction of the country, that growing right track number pulled their approval rating up with it and all of them won a second term.

So we're watching Biden emulate the downward part of the slope. And the key empirical question is whether anything that has happened in his first year has inflicted a kind of a permanent damage on him that would prevent him from doing what Reagan, and Clinton, and Obama did, which is recovering if and when people become more optimistic about the underlying conditions of the country.

[23:15:00]

We don't know the answer to that. But I think most people are dubious that Biden has suffered permanent damage. He's not Reagan, he's not Clinton, he's not Obama as a communicator or a charismatic presence. But by enlarge, I think most people feel that there is the opportunity for him still to recover if -- the big if, people become more optimistic about the way things are going right now.

LEMON: You kind of said what I was thinking as you were doing it. I mean, you look at Reagan, right? Reagan is -- used to be the gold standard for Republican presidents, Clinton the great orator, right, it's so charismatic, Obama the great orator, so charismatic, the first black president of United States. And then also the --

BROWNSTEIN: I (inaudible), despite all that they all still went down when people are unhappy with the (inaudible).

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I'm talking about the other side though. I'm talking about the recovery, though. Because, let me finish because they also did not have a once in a lifetime pandemic that they had to recover from, and which is going to be tough.

So, Harry, he mentioned those numbers. Ron mentioned those numbers. How does President Biden's poll numbers compare to Reagan, Clinton and Obama?

ENTEN: They're worse at this point. You see them right here on the screen right now. The only president in recent history who is in worse shape than Joe Biden is right now 41 percent was Donald Trump in 2018. He was at 39 percent.

At least at this point Biden's numbers are worse than Reagan and they are worse than Obama's, who are both hovering right at around 50 percent. Clinton was actually in the high 50s at this point. But of course, we're still very early on, that's why as you point out, we are still very, very early on. But one year in, Biden is in a worse position than those guys.

LEMON: Look at that. Can we put that back up, please? Did you see Bush? I mean, Bush was 81 percent.

ENTEN: that was after 9/11.

LEMON: H.W. Bush, right. H.W. Bush in 1990, was that 78 percent? Those are pretty high.

ENTEN: Those were very, very high. H.W. Bush had a very high approval rating for a very long time period of time. People forget that.

BROWNSTEIN: Harry, can I say just real quickly. I mean, all of them ultimately got down to the 40 percent range when dissatisfaction with the country's direction, you know, peaked. And that, I think that -- the real question is whether Biden has been damaged in a way that would prevent him from recovering if and when people become more optimistic.

They don't get more optimistic, he's not going to recover very much. That's the harder scenario. People say pessimistic all through the time and ultimately, you know he performed very badly in 1980.

I think the more kind of relevant question is if inflation recedes, if the pandemic recedes and people are back, feeling a little better about the way things are going in the country, has anything happen that would prevent Biden from emulating Reagan, Clinton and Obama and rising again at that point?

ENTEN: Don, I'll hit that point. I'll hit that point

LEMON: Go ahead, data.

ENTEN: Thank you very, very much. Look, that is true. And you can look at four presidents in fact at this particular point or actually even later on in their presidency, go one week after their first mid- term, right? Look at Harry Truman. Look at Bill Clinton. Look at Barack Obama. Look at Ronald Reagan. Where were their approval ratings at this point? They were all under

50 percent one week after their first mid-term and they were all re- elected. Their disapproval ratings were higher than their approval ratings. And on the other end, we were talking about George H.W. Bush, right?

LEMON: Not re-elected, you are making my point, one termer.

ENTEN: Exactly. George H.W. Bush and Jimmy Carter's approval ratings were above their disapproval ratings, one week after the first midterm. They were in fact in the low 50s, well above their disapproval ratings. Look, approval ratings are interesting. They tell us about the here and now.

We know that Joe Biden is in a weak position but that doesn't mean it can't turn around. It probably in my opinion won't turn around by the midterms but we still have nearly three years to go until the next presidential election. And the fact is, what will determine ultimately is where are we in the COVID pandemic, are we still there, and what's the state of the economy?

LEMON: Data, you have to earn your title, your new name, data. Because it's not about your opinion, this is about you going back there and crunching the numbers and coming out with something solid, OK?

ENTEN: I think, I might have missed it but I think I might have just done that. I will just note right now, I sent you a text message this weekend about dog photos and you did not send me a single one. You are lucky I'm on your program with you right now.

LEMON: OK. I would just say for a response to that, see Anderson Cooper.

Thank you, gentlemen.

BROWNSTEIN: Thanks, Don.

ENTEN: Thank you.

LEMON: I appreciate it. Thanks so much.

Up next, inside the raid that killed the leader of ISIS. The message the president says it sends to terrorists.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON SPOKESMAN: They had been trying to reconstitute, trying to grow, trying to get stronger, trying to metastasize outside the region and certainly we have seen indications that they have designs on attacking the West and even our homeland.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:20:00]

LEMON: Today, the United States delivering what the White House calls a catastrophic blow to ISIS. President Biden saying U.S. Special Forces killed an ISIS leader during an overnight raid at his compound in Syria and saying a deadly strike sends a message that the U.S. will hunt down terrorists wherever they try to hide.

More on how the deadly strike unfolded from CNN's Oren Liebermann at the Pentagon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN CORESPONDENT (voice over): A U.S. raid shattering the overnight hours in Northwest Syria. Special Forces going after the leader of ISIS, Abu Ibrahim al-Hashimi al-Qurashi, aka Haji Abdullah.

BIDEN: Last night's operation took a major terrorist leader of the battlefield and has sent a strong message to terrorists around the world, we will come after you and find you.

LIEBERMANN: President Joe Biden watched from the White House as Special Forces closed in on their target. The helicopters approached the three-story compound in the middle of night, according to the senior administration officials.

Once on the ground, Special Forces warned civilians to clear out, evacuating 10 civilians, including eight children. Officials say, al- Qurashi then blew himself up, killing his wife and children and tearing the top of the building apart.

[23:25:12]

His lieutenant one floor below was killed in an exchange of fire with U.S. Forces. The pentagon said a child was also killed on this floor but wouldn't say how or by whom. Toward the end of the two-hour operation, officials say two members of an al-Qaeda affiliate were killed in an exchange of fire with U.S. Forces. U.S. Forces also having to destroy one of the helicopters on the ground after mechanical failures. Four civilians were killed and all according to the Pentagon and five combatants. That wasn't the plan.

KENNETH MCKENZIE, COMMANDER, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: And I say capture the leader of ISIS. That was the intent of the mission.

LIEBERMANN: This raid was the biggest U.S. operations in Syria since the operation that killed Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi in 2019, the original leader of ISIS. Al-Qurashi's background is a bit of a mystery, his exact birthplace and birthdate unclear. He was in U.S. detention in 2008 before he was turned over to the Iraqis and at some point released. In March 2020, the State Department labeled him a specially designated global terrorist with a $10 million reward.

BIDEN: He was responsible for a recent brutal attack on a prison in Northeast Syria pulling ISIS fighters. He was the driving force behind the genocide in (inaudible) people in Northwestern Iraq in 2014. LIEBERMANN: Al-Qurashi never left the third floor of the building in

northwest Syria except to bathe on the roof, officials said. But early December, intelligence officials believe they had pinpointed his location and Biden authorized the operation.

The White House called his death a blow to ISIS but the terror organization, still suffering from the defeat of its self-declared caliphate in 2019 has plans to rebuild.

General McKenzie, the commander of U.S. central commands said, even if Haji Abdullah wasn't as famous as the original leader of ISIS, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, he was just as dangerous and just as involved in planning ISIS terror attacks. Meanwhile U.S. officials say the next leader of ISIS will suffer the same fate, Don.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: Alright. Oren, thank you very much. A risky pre-dawn raid, gunfire and a bomb explosion in a compound in Syria, an ISIS leader killed.

But my next guest, Philip Mudd, says the terror group isn't dead yet.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:30:00]

LEMON: The leader of ISIS killed Wednesday during a U.S. counterterrorism raid in Northwest Syria, the largest raid in Syria since the 2019 operation that took out Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. Intel gathering on this raid ramped up last fall with Biden being brief in detail, five days before Christmas. In the wake of the raid, Pentagon spokesman -- spokesperson John Kirby, warning that ISIS still has the capability to attack the U.S. mainland.

So joining me now, Philip Mudd, CNN counterterrorism analyst.

Philip, good to see you, thank you for joining us. This would have been the biggest news, right, that we have been covering at one point but we have all this craziness going around. So big, a big deal, so let's talk about it.

We were getting some new details on the raid, a source telling CNN that President Biden was briefed on an operation in late December. The objective was to capture him alive. Biden himself asked about what could happen if there was someone with a suicide vest. What goes into deciding how to carry out this kind of very risky raid, Phil?

PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST (on camera): Well, there's a couple of characteristics that you have to look at. You mentioned one. The intelligence value of somebody like this is pretty high. If you get this guy in detention, regardless of whether he is a hardened terrorist, there's a prospect he's going to speak.

Getting inside someone's head to understand things like courier networks, who's next in line in leadership. That's incredibly valuable for an organization that doesn't like to put stuff down on paper and doesn't communicate much more by things like e-mail or text, human being detainees are really important. So that's one piece, the intel piece.

Think about the second piece, the safety piece for the women and children in the compound. When you have surveillance, and I've seen this stuff live, when you have surveillance of that compound over the course of weeks or longer, you get what we used to call pattern of life, Don, that is you can see who is coming, who's going. Where they lived in the compound, how many are men, women and children, how many are under the age of 18, you can determine that from videos.

You look at that and say if we go in with something like a drone strike, the risk that women and children will die is extremely high. This minimized risk but you saw what happened, you can't eliminate risk, Don.

LEMON: Alright. Interesting. I want to talk to you about the crisis in Ukraine now, going on Ukraine's border, U.S. officials alleging that Russia has been preparing to create a propaganda video that would show a fake attack by Ukraine against Russia to create this false pretext for an invasion.

Russia denies that but what does that tell you about Putin's aim and is it feasible? Could he do something like that? Might he do something and could it be effective?

MUDD: Well, you mean to tell me that politician is going to try to use a big lie and we would say that won't work?

(LAUGHTER)

I mean, so let --

LEMON: Where has that happened before, right?

(LAUGHTER)

MUDD: Let me give you a couple perspectives. First, you know, my job as an intelligence analyst was to understand the world the way other people looked at it, not the way we look at it. We in America might look that it -- look at that and say who would believe this?

But remember, there's a domestic agenda here for Putin as well. Putin's popularity ratings are routinely high but they were even higher after the invasion of Crimea. People in every country like to see their leader look tough.

[23:35:12]

What happens if they move in, that is the Russians moves into Ukraine and that video pops up? We may not be persuaded but somebody in Moscow who says I like tough Putin, looks at that video and says we have to move in. Look at what they did to us. So, I think the propaganda value for Putin is strong inside Russia. I'm not sure anybody obviously in United States or Europe would believe that stuff. LEMON: Hey, I got a quick one before we go here. Very important

though, but the Beijing Olympics starting tomorrow, is Putin just waiting for the games to finish before moving forward with an invasion, do you think?

MUDD: I've seen that argument, I don't buy it. I think Putin has already got in part of what he wants and that is any president who thinks about expanding the American security perimeter east towards Russia has to think twice and he's done that without an invasion, Don.

LEMON: Phil Mudd, I love you but I'm mad at you because I just noticed that you're in Miami.

MUDD: It's my hometown.

LEMON: I know, it's warm though.

(LAUGHTER)

LEMON: It's warm.

MUDD: I'm happy to be here.

LEMON: Thank you, sir. Good to see you.

So Whoopi Goldberg on the sidelines at ABC for comments about the holocaust and it is sparking a conversation about whether to cancel or counsel. Which one should you do or should we do? John McWhorter has a lot to say about that. He joins me next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:40:00]

LEMON: "The View" host Whoopi Goldberg now suspended by "ABC" after saying the holocaust was not about race. Her suspension coming after an on-air apology, an apology that was accepted by the CEO for the anti-defamation league, Jonathan Greenblatt.

Joining me, linguist John McWhorter, author of "Woke Racism, How A New Religion Has Betrayed Black America." John, good to see you, let's get into this. It's day two of this Whoopi suspension and you say that you're nostalgic for times before cancel culture. I need to say that she's not been cancelled but she's been suspended. What would be a better way to handle this, you think?

JOHN MCWHORTER, PROFESSOR OF LINGUISTICS, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY (on camera): Well, of course she hasn't been cancelled. It's very hard to cancel anybody and Whoopi is not going to be cancelled. But a better way to handle this would have been to just inform her that maybe she is missing or forgetting something. In this case you get the feeling she's not fully aware or wasn't at that moment that Jews used to be seen as a separate race and that that's how the Nazis saw them and tell her that it can be hurtful to Jewish people for that to be ignored and neglected. And then just move on because I think Whoopi Goldberg has proven

herself to be a thoroughly decent human being over the 35 years that she's been a public presence. And the notion that because she has a fact wrong and nevertheless she fully understands the horror of the holocaust, she's not trying to minimize it, she's not trying to say that anything is lesser than it was, she was just making a kind of a taxonomic point that she was saying that all the people involved are what we would call white.

That does not mean that she should not be allowed to work for two weeks. And anybody who thinks that's normal is forgetting what normal life was like in roughly say, 2014. Why can't you just be told that she was wrong, even (inaudible). You don't push somebody out (inaudible) for something like this. It's uncivil and it's unnecessary.

LEMON: This is why you're a linguist, because that's just what you said, used to be, right? They used to think of. You said Nazis used to think of Jewish people as a race. And that was very simply put.

And I don't think anyone has really said it that simply those aren't big words. Right now in 2022 in United States of America, race is a very specific meaning. So, explain what it is and how it can actually create blind spots in our conversation.

MCWHORTER: Well, we have to understand that race is the third rail in America's current conversation, and that means that there is a special sensitivity about that issue. However, that doesn't mean that anybody thinks that what happened in the holocaust wasn't a revoltingly horrible thing.

Now, Whoopi Goldberg was saying that here was an example of the fact that even when you leave the issue of race that human beings can be really nasty to other human beings.

LEMON: Right.

MCWHORTER: That many of us are thinking. Well, in this case you didn't step away from race because people thought of Jews as practically a different species. I think Whoopi was thinking about (inaudible) almost all of us here in America in 2022.

It was kind of a slip. So just tell her it was kind of a slip. Why is it that when somebody makes a mistake like that, even if we are talking about not black people this time, she has to be excommunicated in this way? It's recreational, it's nasty, it's punitive, and this has got to stop no matter who does it. I think she should not have been suspended. She should have been told she was wrong, maybe in colorful ways but this isn't necessary.

LEMON: Especially after, you know, an apology and another conversation. And like, you know, the whole -- the whole chastising of her in the memo, you know, from someone who is an icon. And not that that, you know, that doesn't inoculate someone from having a point of view that is ignorant, but still, it was -- MCWHORTER: No, but we're in a situation these days where the apology

means nothing. That's how you know something's going out the window and frankly have I to say it that a book like "My Woke Racism" is not insane. Why is it that now when someone apologizes it means absolutely nothing. What kind of society are we becoming where that's considered acceptable just to score some sort of points. I don't think that it's healthy, it's not mature.

[23:45:22]

LEMON: Yeah. John McWhorter, it's always a pleasure having you on. Thank you, sir, I appreciate it.

MCWHORTER: Thank you for having me, Don.

LEMON: COVID cases down. And experts are questioning whether it's time to ease up on the restrictions. I'm going to talk about that.

And the personal threats of my next guest is getting on the same day that he got nominated for a Nobel Prize.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:50:00]

LEMON: States across the country may be on the other side of the Omicron surge. Alabama currently the only state where cases are rising. It also happens to be the state with the lowest percentage of fully-vaccinated people.

But even with so many states in the green, there are still thousands of Americans dying every single day from COVID. With the very real possibility of 1 million COVID deaths in this country by summer. How far away from normal are we?

So, joining me now to discuss, Dr. Peter Hotez. He is the co-director of the Texas Children's Hospital Center for Vaccine Development. Doctor, thank you. Good to see you.

The White House this week is beginning to sketch a plan for going back to life without COVID causing major disruptions but saying that we are not there, yet. What measure would you be looking for that we've entered an endemic phase, rather than being in a pandemic?

DR. PETER HOTEZ, VACCINE RESEARCHER, DEAN OF THE NATIONAL SCHOOL OF TROPICAL MEDICINE AT BAYLOR COLLEGE OF MEDICINE (on camera): Well, I think the first thing we want to see is this Omicron wave, Don, go way down to the point where it was before it started. As the delta wave have really descended in the south. So, you know, we're -- we're only about halfway down, and it's unclear whether it will get stuck there for a while just like it did in the U.K.

So, the first thing that has to happen is the Omicron wave has to really descend down to the bottom. The second thing that has to happen is to make certain that this BA2 variant, which is causing problems in Denmark and the U.K., doesn't cause it to stall or rise up, again. And that's another possibility.

But let's assume now that we're now well into the spring, and Omicron is in our rear-view mirror. What does the world look like at that point? And it -- and there is debate among those scientific community. I think we are still very vulnerable to another big summer wave across the south in Texas just like we were in 2020 and 2021.

Others say, no, this will look more like a regular-seasonal winter virus and there is some models to suggest that might be a possibility. So, --the bottom line is no matter what we need to do, we need to still increase the percentage of our U.S. population that is vaccinated and someone's got to figure out how we are going to vaccinate globally because that's where all the new variants of concern are emerging from the world's low and middle-income countries. So that is a cliff notes version on where we are headed.

LEMON: Yeah. Listen. I need to congratulate you because you and your co-director at the Center for vaccine Development at Texas Children's Hospital have been nominated this week for the 2022 Nobel Peace Prize for your work to develop and provide access to COVID vaccines in countries around the world. It is not the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine, so can you tell us about your work, please?

HOTEZ: Well, we've been -- when I say we, my science partner for the last 20 years, Dr. Maryland (inaudible), we have been making vaccines that the big pharma companies won't make. They are vaccines for the world's poorest people, vaccines for diseases of Africa, such as (inaudible) and hookworm or the poor regions of Latin America, Chavez (ph) disease.

And what we do is we make recombinant protein vaccines, usually using yeas fermentation. It's actually a vegan process. That's been around for 30 years, used to make the hepatitis b vaccine. About 10 years ago, we started making coronavirus vaccines because they were orphan just like the others, nobody cared about coronavirus vaccines 10 years ago.

And then, when the COVID-19 sequence hit, we were able to hit the ground running. We made a really exciting vaccine that now we have licensed with no patent, no strings attached to a vaccine producers in India, and Indonesia, Bangladesh, and Southern Africa and India is the furthest along.

And what we do is we transfer the ownership in each case so they own the vaccine. It is called Corbi vax made by Biological E. It's a great safety profile. Really looks exciting in terms of its ability to protect populations and they have now produced 250 million doses with plans for a billion doses and hopefully that will start filling the gap because we need 6 to 9 billion doses before the world's low and middle-income countries are fully vaccinated.

LEMON: Doctor, that is amazing. I mean, there should be millions and millions and more people like you. Congratulations on that and don't stop. Continue on, please. It is a huge honor but the same night the Fox propaganda network went after you with Tucker Carlson comparing you to Alex Jones. That's bad enough. But you shared on Twitter how, hours later, you are receiving threats

accusing you of violating the constitution and treason, and calling for you to be hanged. Did you ever think that you would be on the receiving end of messages like that?

HOTEZ: And, Don, this is not -- this is not the first time. This is a regular occurrence now. Anytime the nighttime Fox News anchors go after me or Steve Bannon or Congresswoman Greene goes after me, it's followed by a barrage of really scary e-mails.

[23:55:13]

We have had to bring in, you know, the Houston police department and -- because I'm Jewish, there is a lot of anti-Semitism linked to it, a lot of Nazi stuff. And so, I have -- anti-defamation league has helped me. It's -- these are really tough times.

You know, I never dreamed when I got my M.D. and Ph.D. to make vaccines to help the world's poorest people, that was the reason I did it, that there would be followed by something like this. So we live in very difficult times, indeed.

LEMON: I wish I could say that I haven't experienced similar to what you have but I have and so I feel your pain. There's -- I am empathetic to it. I am so sorry that this happened to you but on the bright side, you are an amazing human being and you are doing great work for human kind. Thank you so much, sir.

HOTEZ: Thank you, Don. That means a lot. I really appreciate it.

LEMON: Thank you.

And thank you for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)