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Don Lemon Tonight

Fake Electors Super-Secret Meeting; President Biden Warns Russia Of Severe Consequences; Republican Leaders Condemns RNC's Action; Former D.C. Police Wants RNC Chair Out; Mask Mandates Lifted In Some States; Joe Rogan Apologized For Using N-word Multiple Times. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired February 07, 2022 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN HOST (on camera): That's it for me tonight. I'll be back bright and early in the morning. The news continues, so let's turn things over to Don and DON LEMON TONIGHT.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is DON LEMON TONIGHT.

And we have breaking news. New revelations about the plot to overturn our free and fair election. The plot that exploded into violence at United States Capitol on January 6th.

Now I've said it before, that was most visible part, right? But there was a lot more to it. And tonight, we have new details from the fake electors, that part of the plot. This time in Wisconsin. One of the want-to-be electors bragging on his podcast about how super-secret it all was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: It's all super-secret for security reasons. So we met in a secret location. We waited for almost an hour before they took us to the state capitol.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Lots of secrets there, going on to lay out how they thought they could get their ballots counted instead of the ones from the legitimate electors.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: In the event that something would transpire legally here where the outcome in Wisconsin would be reversed, then our ballots would be sent to Washington, D.C., and those would be the ballots that get counted.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON (on camera): They really thought that it would be that simple,

just send your fake ballots to Washington, D.C., and they'll get counted. And there's news on the criminal investigation in Georgia of the then president's efforts to overturn the election results there. Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis warning she's not playing games.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FANI WILLIS, FULTON COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: This is a criminal investigation, we're not here playing a game. I plan to use the power of the law. We are all citizens, Mr. Trump, just as every other American citizen is entitled to dignity, he's entitled to be treated fairly. He will be treated fairly in this jurisdiction but I plan to do my job, and my job is to make sure that we get the evidence that gives us the truth. I'm not concerned at all about games to delay this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): And the outrage is growing over the RNC's completely anti-American, because that's what it is, anti-American claim that what happened on January 6th was, their words, legitimate political discourse.

I defy them to call this legitimate political discourse. There's new video from the DOJ showing a former police officer who, a former police officer quite frankly, honestly has become a really good friend of mine, and that's Michael Fanone, showing him being attacked by a crowd and stabbed with a stun gun.

Mike is going to be here in just a minute, we're going to talk all about that. And then there is this, a former marine, his name is Ryan Nicholls facing eight criminal charges, including assaulting officers with pepper spray, he's pleaded not guilty. But listen to him blatantly threatening then Vice President Mike Pence. We're not bleeping the profanity by the way, because you need to hear this as it happened. You need to hear what they're calling legitimate political discourse.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RYAN NICHOLS, FORMER U.S. MARINE: And if you are a patriot then get on board. And if you're not, then get the fuck out of my way because I'll drag your fucking ass through the street. You want it, you fucking got it. So let me find out, Pence, let me find out myself that you treasoned the country. We'll fucking drag your ass, too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Legitimate political discourse, that's what they're calling it, a legitimate political discourse. Ted Cruz still trying to defend the indefensible tonight, telling reporters, and I'm quoting here, "my take is the press continues to politicize, attack on people engaging in peaceful free speech. There's no doubt that there were tens of thousands of people engaged in peaceful free speech that the press and the Democrats try to demonize falsely." Peaceful free speech like this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NICHOLS: So, let me find out, Pence, let me find out myself that you treasoned the country. We'll fucking drag your ass, too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Remember just last month, when Ted Cruz told the truth, calling January 6th a violent terrorist attack and then got his head handed to him on TV by Tucker Carlson. I digress. There are however some Republicans who are standing up for the truth. Notably, Mitt Romney who is telling CNN that he texted his niece, Ronna McDaniel, who just happens to be the chair of the RNC to express his point of view.

(BEGIN VOICE CLIP)

[22:04:57]

SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT): It could not have been a more inappropriate message, one, to sanction two people of character as they did, but number two, to suggest a violent attack on the seat of democracy is legitimate political discourse is so far from accurate as to the shock and make people wonder what we're thinking.

(END VOICE CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): We've got more on all of this tonight. And it comes as President Joe Biden meets with Germany's leader, as Russian troops are massed at Ukraine's border. Biden vowing if Vladimir Putin invades Ukraine there will be swift and severe consequences, including shutting down the multibillion-dollar Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: If Russia invades, that means tanks or troops crossing the border of Ukraine, again, then there will be no longer -- we -- there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2, we will bring an end to it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): For more on President Joe Biden's warning to Russia, I want to bring in CNN White House correspondent M.J. Lee and senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, Max Boot.

Good evening to both of you. M.J. let's go to you for the reporting now, President Biden warning Vladimir Putin it would be a gigantic mistake if Russia invades Ukraine. What else did he have to say?

M.J. LEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, this is a message we have been hearing from President Biden for a while now. Essentially trying to tell Moscow, trying to tell Vladimir Putin, that if you were to invade Ukraine, the severe -- the severity of the consequences would be extremely grave. And this is something that we saw him trying to stress after and

before this bilateral meeting that he had with the German chancellor. The other thing that he was clearly trying to stress in this setting was that the U.S. and Germany are on united front dealing with these issues.

And the reason that he is talking about this so much and with so much emphasis is because there have been some questions about Germany's commitment to having a forceful reaction and response if Russia were to invade. And the Nord Stream 2 pipeline issue is clearly going to remain a sticking point.

We saw that there was difference in the way that President Biden talked about this issue, saying explicitly again that if there were an invasion, that this pipeline would not move forward. Though, obviously he couldn't say with specificity how the U.S. can ensure that. Whereas when the spotlight turned back on the German chancellor, he wouldn't make that specific commitment. he just sort of reverted back to broader statements about there being a united front.

But this is going to raise and continue to not answer questions about how really united that front is if the German chancellor is not willing to make the specific commitment even when he was pressed multiple times on this, Don.

LEMON: Max, let's bring you in. President Biden put his full support behind Germany but the German chancellor wouldn't explicitly say as M.J. just said that he would agree to shutting down the pipeline. Let's listen and then we'll have you respond.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: Would you commit today to turning off and pulling the plug on Nord Stream 2? You didn't mention it. You haven't mentioned it.

OLAF SCHOLZ, GERMAN CHANCELLOR: As I already said, we are acting together, we are absolutely united.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Why won't you explicitly say, Russia, if you invade Ukraine, we're canceling the pipeline.

SCHOLZ: We are doing much more as one step. And all the steps that we will take we will do together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Max, why won't he say what President Biden is saying so definitively?

MAX BOOT, SENIOR FELLOW, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: It's tough issue for Germany, Don, because Germany gets more than half of its natural gas from Russia. This was one of the big mistakes that Angela Merkel, the previous chancellor made, was shutting down Germany's nuclear industry, which made them more reliant on Russia. And so just shutting off that gas is going to be a big economic problem for Germany especially in the middle of the winter. But I like what Biden is doing, which is to try to bring Germany along, and praising them in public while twisting arms in private, which is very different from what the previous U.S. president did.

I have to say it's a real relief, Don, to have a U.S. president once again who doesn't trash our allies. And it's not always possible to get on the exact same page but I think that President Biden is largely doing the right thing, which is trying to mobilize a solid coalition of European states and the United States to make clear to Putin that there will be devastating economic consequences to an invasion of Ukraine.

And I think, you know, Biden is doing some other things that I think are very positive, such as calling out possible Russian provocations, leaking information about how Russia might start a war, this is actually a very effective information operation on our part to preempt any kind of maneuver that the Russians might make.

[22:09:59]

LEMON: Max, the Pentagon says Russia has well over 100,000 troops on the Ukraine border, President Biden telling Americans to get out of the area. Listen, I don't know what's going to happen, but I had a bad feeling about this all along. Is diplomacy failing here?

BOOT: Clearly, diplomacy is failing, and I think it's failing for one reason only, Don. Which is that, Vladimir Putin is showing no interest in a negotiated settlement to this crisis that he has created out of whole cloth. And ultimately, it's going to be up to Putin to decide if there's war or peace in Ukraine. Because this is entirely under his control.

There's no provocation on the part of the U.S., there is no provocation on the part of Ukraine or NATO, this is all a crisis created by Russia and it's going to be up to Putin to see how he resolves it. And so far, he has not been interested in diplomatic off- ramp. But I agree with you, this is a very dangerous, very menacing development as Russia continues to build up their forces for a possible invasion of Ukraine.

LEMON: Max, M.J., thank you both. I appreciate it.

Even after everything we all saw on January 6th, the new videos of the violence that day are shocking. I want to talk to former police officer Michael Fanone about what happened to him in that crowd of rioters. New video.

[22:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): Let's talk about legitimate political discourse. Have a seat, everyone, have a seat. OK? Because I just want you to experience this with your own eyes. More than 140 Republican leaders condemning the RNC tonight for censuring Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger and calling the January 6th attack on the capitol legitimate political discourse.

This coming as the Justice Department releases new video from the insurrection, but I have to warn you it's very disturbing. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): so that highlighted part in the middle that you see right there, that's former officer Michael Fanone who was pulled into the mob, he was tased in the neck. In what world is that labeled legitimate political discourse? It is a brutal assault.

So, joining me now, former D.C. Metropolitan police officer Michael Fanone. He is now a CNN law enforcement analyst. Good to have you on, sorry that you keep having to talk about this, but here we are, Mike.

This shows the horror that you experienced on January 6th, the RNC now is saying that legitimate political discourse was not referring to the people who committed violence but do you believe that?

MICHAEL FANONE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Absolutely not. I didn't experience any political discourse on January 6th. What I experienced was a violent assault carried out by supporters of the former president, incited by the former president. Yes.

LEMON: You know, Congressman Adam Kinzinger who was censured by the RNC for serving on the January 6th select committee, and trying to get to the truth. I want you to listen to what he said, this was CNN earlier today about where we are as country, Mike. here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): To think that someday some militia shows up somewhere to do something, and the -- some counter militia shows up, and truly at that point that's how you end up in a civil war.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: You fear potentially there could be a civil war here in the United States?

KINZINGER: I do. And a year ago I would have said no, not a chance. But I have come to realize that when we don't see each other as fellow Americans, when we begin to separate into cultural identities, when we begin to basically give up everything, we believe so we can be part of a group, and then when you have leaders that come and abuse that faithfulness of that group to violent ends as we saw on January 6th, we would be naive to think it's not possible here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): And listen, proof of that is that rioters really believe the lies first of all that they were being fed and now, this is that we even have Trump raising the idea of mass protests in his name. Do you share the congressman's concerns?

FANONE: Absolutely. I mean, I have a great deal of respect for Adam Kinzinger and Liz Cheney for stepping out, you know, out of line with their party's position on January 6th. I also see it as inevitable, you know, their initial response was to accept the reality of that day, you saw people like Mitch McConnell and Kevin McCarthy call out Donald Trump, and his responsibility and role that he played in the insurrection at capitol January 6th.

And then gradually merged into whitewashing of the events and when it was -- when the conclusion was made that they could no longer whitewash the events, now they've begun to accept them and own them.

And you've seen what I described earlier today, is the RNC becoming the political wing of the Oath Keepers, Three Percenters and the Proud Boys. The statement made by Ronna McDaniel is outrageous, it's absolutely absurd, it's stupid. And she should resign immediately.

In fact, I would call upon her to resign today. Otherwise, you know, accept the reality that the Republican Party is no longer the party of -- or at least could call itself the party of law and order. They are the party of insurrectionists, seditionists, and violent assaulters of police officers who were simply upholding their oath in protecting the Capitol and the members of congress who were trying to certify the election.

[22:19:58]

LEMON: Mike, let me just -- because you're calling on the head of the RNC to resign. Do you understand the weight of that? Because it's going to say January 6th hero officer Michael Fanone calls on Ronna McDaniel to resign. That is going to -- that carries a lot of weight, it's going to get a lot of pickups. Are you sure about what you're saying?

FANONE: I'm just Michael Fanone. I was a D.C. Metropolitan police officer that responded to the capitol of my own accord, I went there to protect my fellow officers, members of Congress and staff and also to protect the institution of Congress. And uphold my oath.

She's violated hers. The fact that she's the head of the RNC and allowed that statement to go forward, the buck stops with her. She shouldn't hold that office.

LEMON: I want you to look again, Mike, at this video, it's former marine Ryan Nicholls, he is using a cannister of what prosecutors say it's pepper spray against officers. He has also heard in another video going after the former vice president. And language here, very offensive. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NICHOLS: If Pence came, we're going to drag motherfuckers through the streets. You fucking politicians are going to get fucking dragged through the fucking streets.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

NICHOLS: Because we're not going to have our fucking shit stolen, this is the second fucking revolution. And we're here to take it back from you. UNKNOWN: Cut that fucking head off.

NICHOLS: Cut their head off!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): I mean, it's -- these rioters were hell bent on attacking the former vice president. Now finally Pence came out and said, you know, Trump was wrong, and he could not overturn the election. Is that at least a step in the right direction? Especially when you hear someone like that guy. At least Mike Pence, at least, you know, he is saying the right things.

FANONE: Yes, 13 months later. No. Mike Pence is unfit to serve the American people. He should just drift away into obscurity. I'm not interested in hearing his thoughts or opinions on whether or not he could overturn the election results, I think he's looking to salvage what's left of his political career, and his reputation. Because he knows that inevitably history is going to take a big shit on his head.

LEMON: Michael Fanone. We love -- we like you because we love your candor, and you are who you are. Thank you, I appreciate it, Mike.

FANONE: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: Thank you.

The White House says wear them but more states are saying it's time to stop. What you need to know about masks in schools and everywhere else after that.

[22:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): So, I just want to say something about the last segment, what the former officer Michael Fanone said. I do appreciate his candor, I don't agree with his words about the former vice president, it was just in the moment I just did not know how to respond.

Look, he's free to think what he wants. He went through an insurrection, we did not, he fought for democracy and to save lives. So, he can say what he wants to say, eh is free to, and I agree that he could say what he wants to say and I think that we love him for his candor, I just don't necessarily agree with the language.

So, let's move on now. Talk about COVID cases plunging from their January peak across the U.S., down 43 percent since last week. The good news has some governors taking matters into their own hands as they look past the pandemic.

Today, Democratic governors in Connecticut, New Jersey, Oregon and Delaware all backing plans to end mask mandates in schools in the near future, and in California, Governor Gavin Newsom announcing an end to the statewide indoor mask mandate in just over a week on February 15th. But if you are unvaccinated, Newsom says you still need a mask.

So, joining me now to discuss Andy Slavitt, he is the former senior COVID adviser to the Biden White House and author of "Preventable: The Inside Story of How Leadership Failures, Politics, and Selfishness Doomed the U.S. Coronavirus Response."

Andy, thank you. Glad you're joining us to help us talk about this. These governors are moving ahead in their own way. Vaccination rates are high in these states. But the White House still has not put out guidelines for how states should transition out of these restrictions. Is it time for the administration to put a plan out there?

ANDY SLAVITT, FORMER WHITE HOUSE SENIOR ADVISER, COVID-19 RESPONSE: Well, look, the facts are great, we're headed in the right direction, as we hoped we would be. But we still have 300,000 cases now across the country, that's the highest since -- that's higher than any peak prior to Omicron. So still a lot of cases.

I think the governors are hoping that cases continue to drop over the course of February and March. And that during that time period there's an end in sight at least for now to some restrictions. These are very responsible governors with great vaccination rates, and we all hope they're right.

[22:30:04]

But it's going to have -- we're going to have to wait and see till we get to March to know if that's right. For now, I personally will be wearing a mask indoors. Because I still don't want to catch a highly contagious disease, even though I'm vaccinated and protected from something serious.

LEMON: You know, earlier today on CNN, New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy was asked what factors he was looking at when making the decision that end school masking next month. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. PHIL MURPHY (D-NJ): A number of factors, our case -- case count, hospitalizations, the positivity rate, the rate of transmission, are all dropping like a rock, number one. Number two, we're making progress with vaccinations of newly eligible groups, including kids.

Three, we're optimistic that the under-five group of kids will soon become eligible. Fourthly, we know we have a little bit more latitude four weeks from now when this will be lifted in terms of a little bit better weather and ventilation options. Put that together, analyze the data streams and realities, it's pretty clear in our judgment this is the responsible step to take.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): So, do this sound like reasonable metrics for loosening restrictions? Should the White House follow this?

SLAVITT: Well, look, if you're a governor -- good news has been few and far between Governor Murphy is one of the best, he's a -- he's a friend, he is incredibly thoughtful, he is indeed right that things are headed into right direction.

I also know that when things have turned course and things have not turned out as good as expected if we get another bump, if we get another wave, we get another variant, you know he will be -- he will level with his state, level with the public and -- and change course.

I think what the CDC is going to do, is going to continue to look at case count. Right now, they're right, it's far too early for them to say that it's time to change course, we still have 300,000 cases. But I do think if we do continue to see what Governor Murphy predicts, then as we get further into the spring, you will see the CDC start to take action.

Now remember, every time they take action they get criticized because they don't -- you know they all say take off masks and then you know, five or six months later, something will happen, and someone will say aha, they were wrong. So -- so, they've got to do it just when they think it's right, try not to jump the gun.

LEMON: Looming over all this, Andy, is the fear of -- that another dangerous variant could pop up. How important is it to give people a break from the restrictions when cases are as low, right, so that they're not worn out when you really need to buy in, need the buy-in from everyone.

Remember, you know, before Omicron like in the summer right, people were -- let go of the restrictions for masks outdoors, and so on and so forth, and then we got this Omicron variant. So how should you let up when things -- when cases are low?

SLAVITT: Well, absolutely. If I told you with certainty that there will be another wave next winter and then we would have a mild spring or fall in most of the -- in most of the country, spring, summer and fall, and I said gee, you should -- you should wear your masks until next winter, that would be -- that would be really bad advice.

So, we know, we know how to prepare for these waves when they -- when they hit. We know how to -- we have increasingly number of tools. I think we still have to talk to the public about the fact that the pandemic isn't over and that more variants are possible and what to do on those scenarios.

But that's -- that's more about keeping the public prepared, we're keeping our country prepared. But in the meantime, I think we're all hopeful that the spring and the summer in most of the country, can be quite positive. Particularly if you're vaccinated and boosted. If you're not, then I think more dangers are around.

LEMON: Yes. I hope people are listening. We appreciate your expertise. Thank you, Andy. Thanks so much.

SLAVITT: You got it.

So, we're going to have another conversation that is tough, like last week in regards to Whoopi, right, and apologizing. Joe Rogan has apologized again, this time for a series of comments that some deem as racist slurs as matter of fact, and stories of the n word, he used it a lot. Stay with us.

[22:35:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): OK. It's time for that conversation I promised that we would have. We had it about Whoopi, now we're going to have it about Joe Rogan. Because Spotify's Joe Rogan problem it just keeps growing. Neil Young out today with a statement encouraging Spotify employees to quit.

here's what he says, and I quote, "to the musicians and creators in this world, I say this. You must be able to find a better place than Spotify to be the home of your art. To the workers at Spotify, I say Daniel Ek is your problem, not Joe Rogan. Ek pulls the strings. get out of that place before it eats up your soul."

So, we turn now to CNN's Brian Stelter for the very latest on this, but I have to warn you there will be some disturbing language ahead. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE ROGAN, PODCAST HOST: I never use it to be racist because I'm not racist. But whenever you're in a situation where you have to say I'm not racist, you (muted)] up. And I clearly have (muted) up.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Joe Rogan's apology tour continues, this time for repeatedly using the n- word on his popular podcast and staffers at his distributor, Spotify, are furious.

ROGAN: Look, I can't go back in time and change what I've said, I wish I could, obviously it's not possible. But I do hope that this can be a teachable moment for anybody that doesn't realize how offensive that word can be coming out of a white person's mouth, in context or out of context.

[22:40:02]

STELTER: The roots of this controversy go way back.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: two hundred seventy health experts are calling on Spotify to take action.

STELTER: Anti-vaccine falsehoods on Rogan's show put a harsh spotlight on Spotify last month causing musicians like Neil Young to speak out. What's strange is that Rogan started the pandemic by touting the value of vaccines.

ROGAN: There's so many wackos out there to think that vaccines are, you know, a scam or they're dangerous.

STELTER: But he later changed his tune.

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: So would you now with what you know now, and having had COVID, would you have -- would you have wished that you had been vaccinated?

ROGAN: No. but I got through it.

GUPTA: You almost got vaccinated.

ROGAN: yes. But again, I explained all that.

GUPTA: You got through it.

ROGAN: But I got through COVID --

GUPTA: Yes.

ROGAN: Pretty quickly.

STELTER: A group of doctors have been calling Rogan out. And Neil Young and Joni Mitchell followed by yanking their music off the streaming giant. With pressure mounting, Spotify announced that it would add content advisories to podcast episodes including Rogan's that discussed the pandemic. Rogan's fans rallied to his defense.

UNKNOWN: He's one of the most popular in the world.

STELTER: But there was more to come, a Twitter account tied to a liberal super PAC compiled a video of Rogan saying the n-word over and over again on past episodes.

ROGAN: Like you know, the Nigger thing.

Yes, saying the word (muted).

STELTER: A few days later, singer India Arie helped it go viral.

INDIA ARIE, SINGER-SONGWRITER: I want to be clear in no uncertain terms where I stand on this, is that he shouldn't even be uttering the word.

STELTER: Delete Spotify she added, and she's not the only one saying so. The company now under tremendous scrutiny because it played a reported $100 million for the exclusive rights to his show. Rogan's Saturday apology was not enough for employees.

Sunday night CEO Daniel Ek told staffers he hears their concerns but doesn't believe silencing Rogan is the answer. Quote, "we should have clear lines around content and take action when they are crossed but canceling voices is a slippery slope."

Ek also announcing that Spotify will commit $100 million to make, buy and market content from historically marginalized groups. Will that payoff be enough to satisfy performers, employees, and subscribers?

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEMON (on camera): Brian Stelter is here with me now. Brian, thank

you for joining us. Listen, I have to say what struck me here, and I just want people -- I agree with Joe Rogan, and I mean the Joe Rogan in the apology. Right? And this is a quote -- because I want everybody, Joe Rogan supporters and his critics to listen to what he said.

he said, "whatever you're in -- whenever you're in a situation where you have to say I'm not racist, you f'd up." Now he said even the clips for him it was hard for him to hear. And the word is, he said it's offensive coming out of the mouths of white people. I agree with that part of it. I don't think Joe Rogan should be canceled but I think people have right to criticize him as they have right to criticize you, --

STELTER: Sure.

LEMON: -- they have the right to criticize me.

STELTER: Right.

LEMON: And as they have the right to question CNN about that. There's going to be a lot more questions for Spotify is what I'm getting to.

STELTER: There are, and I think we're very much in this period of limbo where we're going to find out are the employees satisfied with the answers? Are subscribers satisfied? You know, we don't know, Don. Are a lot of subscribers cancelling Spotify or does nobody really care.

There was a great headline in the L.A. Times summed it up really well, Spotify knows Joe Rogan's podcast is hurtful but gosh, there's money to be made and this is ultimately about money. But it's also about editorial and what values you want to portray through your content.

Spotify could very well say, you know, we're going to have a little bit of an involve -- we're going to have -- right now they don't have involvement. They could say we're going to have involvement to help make sure your program is not just entertaining, and crude and provocative and whatever.

We're actually going to make sure someone is involved and helping you make the best version of yourself and make sure you don't make the mistakes you made in the past. That's not cancel culture, that's the way to improve the content, improve the quality. That seems to me, to be the way forward.

LEMON: Listen, I think that, you know, we should be having these conversations because everyone is in their own silos. I would love to have a conversation with Joe Rogan, I would love for him to come on his show on this show -- I would even go on his show and speak to him about --

(CROSSTALK)

STELTER: Well, that's news. LEMON: -- these issues. yes, I would.

STELTER: You want to go on?

LEMON: Because I think -- I thought his -- look, you have to look at intent. Intentionality is important.

STELTER: Right.

LEMON: You also have to look at the history of a person. It's the same thing with Mike Pence. You know, Mike Pence, for a lot of people, didn't do -- he wasn't saying the right things. But he did do when he had to, he did the right things. And now he's finally saying it.

So, I think that is important for us in this time to meet people where they are, and have the conversations. Hold them to task. If you don't agree with them, you tell them. So, I think it's -- I would love to have a conversation with him. Really would. Because I think that when -- this is why do white people feel that they have to say this word? Why do they have to?

[22:45:02]

And I think Joe Rogan is getting it that he finally understands you don't have to say that word. That word is very charged, it has an extremely heavy history. Why do you feel the need to say it?

Yes, OK, black folks can say it. Women call each other skinny bees all the time. It doesn't mean that I have to call them that. But they're comfortable saying you're a skinny bee, like there's a drink called skinny bee. I'm not going to call a woman that, but they're free to use that language because they are -- they're in on the joke. Do you understand what I'm saying?

STELTER: Yes. But you're saying the evolution of Rogan is interesting.

LEMON: Yes.

STELTER: his evolution is the interesting part and what's what we should explore. And whether, you know, he does that on his podcast or not, I hope his fans can hear that conversation and hear about it. Cancel culture is often a very blunt instrument, this black or white thing, when all the interesting stories are in the gray area.

LEMON: I don't -- I don't and I actually don't believe in cancel culture. I think people use that because they want to be able to say racist, or bigoted, or sexist or homophobic things with impunity. Right? It's about consequences. And I think people who really -- if you make a mistake and you really apologize, or if you're not -- if your intent wasn't to harm people, I do think that there is redemption.

And I think that, but if you lean into it, and you don't believe you did something wrong or if you have malicious intent and your history shows, then that's an issue. I believe in consequences, I got to run because I have a very special guest --

STELTER: yes, you do.

LEMON: -- coming up on the other side. Thank you, Brian.

STELTER: Thank you.

LEMON: I appreciate it. India Arie is here. She's pulling her music from Spotify. I can't wait to hear what she has to say. She doesn't think though that Joe Rogan should be canceled. Hi, India. We'll talk to you on the other side.

[22:50:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): Grammy Award winning musician India Arie taking her music off Spotify after highlighting a barrage of racist language repeatedly used by Joe Rogan, but she says she's not looking for him to be canceled. And singer-songwriter India Arie joins me now.

India, you know I loved you. I love you since the moment you've -- I met you. Not -- meaning your music. So, thank you for joining us. I think your -- I think you have a nuanced perspective about this and I really respect it. You say that Joe Rogan has spurred this protest but it's not about him. What is it about, ma'am?

ARIE: I love you, too, and you're about to make me cry by playing that I am light in my intro. You know, wo it's about confluence of energies. Because there is Joe Rogan, his insensitive language around race, there is that. And there is also Spotify and their treatment of artists and there's that.

I knew about Joe Rogan's insensitive comments about race before. Because I'm a podcast listener and I heard many episodes of his podcast. When I learned of this language I just tuned out on my own.

But it was brought into my world as an artist, a working musician, which is, I want to get into that tonight, I hope, but as a working musician always had issues with Spotify, and then they bring in this Joe Rogan thing and now it creates a thing that I cannot to be (Inaudible) about, he's not the reason but he is the final reason.

LEMON: So, you were a listener and you said you just started tuning out. And what did you mean by you held your hand up, and you said you had an issue with Spotify because you have this and then you have -- what do you mean by that. Explain to the viewer.

ARIE: Well, I feel like the average person confuses celebrity culture -- and I'm going to hold my hands up again because my opinions are always nuanced, I think human beings were nuance. So, I feel like the average person confuses celebrity culture with being a working musician.

Everybody is not on TMZ arguing about their kids, like that's celebrity culture. Most, the vast majority of working musicians, the people who write the sings, they produce the songs, there are multiple people behind every all music you hear. The music you hear in the commercials, there are multiple people make that music.

Your favorite songs, your kids' songs, "Baby Shark," somebody wrote all of that stuff and there's been ongoing argument, is the right word, there's been an ongoing argument and ongoing trials about how now with this digital streaming platforms how these working us, working artists are paid. And it's so low and they say like, that's just how it is. And so, we all kind of just like, all right, so we need to do more touring.

And then COVID hit, and then touring went away. So that's a who another nuance. But how it is it's something we've all lived with for a long time. There's actually a trial coming up where there's still going to be ongoing trials about how to get this rate to be more fair for working musician.

And so, there is that conversation. And then there is Spotify comes in, and then there is this big payment to this guy that a lot of people find offensive. It doesn't matter what his name is. There's a person who had a lot of people find offensive, and we also find our lack of pay offensive. And that creates a different conversation.

If I can tune out on Joe Rogan on my own, it's fine. I don't have to tell people that what I know. I just don't have to listen, but if you bring it into my world, now I have -- I have to say something.

LEMON: Well, India, let me ask you this.

ARIE: I hope that was clear.

LEMON: Yes, I get what you're saying. So, I'm asking you, would it help if -- so if Joe Rogan was an ally to the artist and understand, because he is in that position, he makes a lot of money, maybe he can join forces with you and help you guys to get to where you want, to meet some -- there is some sort of happy medium, so to speak.

[22:55:09]

Since he is, I think he is either the highest paid, it's either him or Meghan or the Obamas, or whatever, I'm not sure he is highest paid there. But, you know, what do you think?

ARIE: I mean, I think it would be a beautiful thing, it's a beautiful when people are allies for each other in any realm. I don't expect that fully, but I have to say I think he did fine job with his apology; he said a lot of the things I would want to hear someone say. I think the thing that stuck for me most was when he said it's not my word to use.

LEMON: Right.

ARIE: And I think changed behavior is what we're really looking for. If it went all the way to allyship, that would be wonderful but also changed behavior would be wonderful, too. LEMON: I just, I want to ask you before you go, when you said it's

not our word to use. I always wonder why so many people want to use that word. Especially it seems -- you know, he said white people. Right? I find like a lot of white guys it feels like, they feel like it's their right to use that word. Why can't I use that word, I'm entitled to use it. Do you understand? Like why, why do you want to say the word? If you want to say the word, then say it, but then you have to suffer the consequences of actually saying the word.

ARIE: That's it right there. If you're asking me why, I feel like a lot of it has to do with popular culture. This is now a whole another nuanced conversation. But you know, it's in a lot of the music.

LEMON: Yes.

ARIE: And that's why I think it's important for him to say it's not my word to use. Because I have a whole other conversation about it being in the music. Anybody who knows my music knows that I have strong values in my music, every song for eight albums, I always have.

And so, you can imagine where I stand with the use of the word, but also, I stand in solidarity with the black community, because I understand historically why we use it. I know why we use it but explaining that to everyone every time is not where I want to be, or anywhere I should have to be. We should just say, we should be able to say just don't.

LEMON: Right.

ARIE: And also like I don't think that Joe Rogan is racist for using it, I think he's insensitive for using it.

LEMON: Yes.

ARIE: So just don't, you know?

LEMON: You are light, and I hope this conversation helps. Again, I love you. I think that you are amazing for -- you put yourself out there. One of the only people to come out and do that. And so, I appreciate you.

ARIE: Thank you.

LEMON: And I hope everybody else stands in your light and I would love for Joe Rogan to become an ally, you guys should talk. Thank you, India. You are invited here at any time.

ARIE: I would like that. Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you.

ARIE: Thank you.

LEMON: Be well.

ARIE: You, too. LEMON: So, gigantic mistake, President Biden's message to Vladimir Putin, next.