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Don Lemon Tonight

Kevin McCarthy Dodge Questions Over RNC's Resolution; RNC Chair Blames Two GOP Members; New York To Lift Mask Mandates; CDC Don't Agree With Easing Restrictions; Houston Texans Hired A Black Coach; Oscar With New Nominees. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired February 08, 2022 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LAURA COATES, CNN HOST (on camera): Thanks for watching. I'll be back tomorrow night. DON LEMON TONIGHT starts right now.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: So tomorrow I understand here in New York we won't have to do that as we walk around businesses.

COATES: Really?

LEMON: Yes. That's what the announcement is supposed to be. No masks indoors.

COATES: How you feel about that?

LEMON: I have mixed feelings. I think that it's -- it's not the same in every single place, right, in every single city, in every single town, you have to look at the numbers, and look at where, you know, the variants are and what have you, and the cases.

But I think it's good, you know, for -- if everyone is vaxxed, if you are -- if you, you know, vax and boosted, I think you should be able to do it and you don't have a high case rate, I think why not? But I think --

(CROSSTALK)

COATES: I've got to tell you --

LEMON: -- if it goes back up, then we may be back to masks.

COATES: And of course, people are going to say though, it will go up if you don't have masks, right? Or the idea of the catch-22, but what really irks me, two things. One, when people are supposed to wear a mask and it's below their nose. Number one.

LEMON: Yes.

COATES: And number two, I can't tell you, three times today alone I saw someone who took off their mask to then sneeze and put it back on. I was like --

LEMON: But do you want people to sneeze?

COATES: Just out of curiosity, what do you think you're -- should you be trapping right now?

LEMON: Yes. But do they do the thing? Because you don't want to sneeze inside the mask.

COATES: It was this, take it off, sneeze -- out to the world, spores just everywhere, and came back in.

LEMON: You should be mad. You have the right to be mad.

(CROSSTALK)

COATES: I was mad.

LEMON: And you don't want to anger Laura Coates. So, I'm going to let you get home tonight and do your thing. Thanks, Laura. I'll see you tomorrow.

COATES: Bye.

LEMON: Bye.

COATES: See you later.

LEMON: See you later.

This is DON LEMON TONIGHT.

And if you want to know how volatile and on edge Washington is, and it is, all you have to do is look at Republicans at odds over what happened on January 6th. And the RNC's attempt to call it legitimate political discourse, that's what they call it, quote, "legitimate political discourse." Kevin McCarthy, of course Kevin McCarthy, trying today to defend the indefensible.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The RNC resolution last week referred to the events of January 6th as a legitimate political discourse.

(CROSSTALK)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: That's not -- that's not correct. But what the RNC was talking about, they were talking about, everybody knows anybody can -- broke it and caused damage. That was not called for those people we've said from the very beginning should be in jail. What they were talking about is the six RNC members who January 6th has subpoenaed who weren't even here, who were in Florida that day.

RAJU: So, you're supporting that resolution? (END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): OK, well, didn't answer that part. That is classic Kevin McCarthy, hemming and hawing, hemming and hawing, distracting and deflecting, whatever happened to the guy who said this one week after the violent attack on the seat of our democracy?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCARTHY: The president bears responsibility for Wednesday's attack on Congress by mob rioters. He should have immediately denounced the mob when he saw what was unfolding.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): We know exactly what happened to that Kevin McCarthy. He spent the ensuing 13 months trying to buddy up to a disgraced, twice impeached, one term former president, hoping to get the golden ticket and become speaker.

And he's not the only one trying to defend the indefensible. Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel taking a page out of the Trump playbook, blaming the media, of course, when all else fails, blame the media, right? And writing in an op-ed, quote, "the awful events do not justify Cheney or Kinzinger enabling a partisan committee whose real purpose seems to be helping Democrats electoral prospects at the cost of potentially ruining innocent people's lives."

There's a lot in there. But I won't take up your time. I'll tell you more throughout the show. Trying to turn the investigation of the one of darkest days into the nation's history into a political cheap shot is what she's doing. She's ignoring heated criticism from some Republican leaders, even her own uncle. Uncle Mitt Romney.

(BEGIN VOICE CLIP)

SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT): It could not have been a more inappropriate message. One, to sanction two people of character as they did.

[22:04:56]

But number two, to suggest that a violent attack on the seat of democracy is legitimate political discourse is so far from accurate as to the shock and make people wonder what we're thinking.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): That was Uncle Mitt. There are other Republicans pushing back as well. Mitch McConnell, Mitch McConnell delivering a smackdown to the RNC in the face of all of this whitewashing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), SENATE MINORITY LEADER: My view of what happened January the 6th. We're all -- we're here, we're here. We saw what happened. It was a violent insurrection. For the purpose of trying to prevent the peaceful transfer of power after a legitimately certified election. From one administration to the next. That's what it was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): When people finally say the right thing, right, when they finally tell the truth, even if they haven't done it all along, the same thing I said about Pence last night, Mike Pence last night, you have to meet them where they are and give them credit for that.

So, for everyone like Ronna McDaniel and Kevin McCarthy who's saying it's biased, political, whatever to say that the insurrection was an insurrection and it was an assault on our democracy, this is now the head of the Republican Party, really the most important person really at this point besides Trump, he's not, you know, but who is in office. The head of the Senate for Republicans. Mitch McConnell. Play it again, and listen, please.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCONNELL: My view of what happened January the 6th. We're all -- we're here, we're here. We saw what happened. It was a violent insurrection. For the purpose of trying to prevent the peaceful transfer of power after a legitimately certified election. From one administration to the next. That's what it was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): That's all Republicans had to say from the very beginning, and they would have moved on from this debacle. Because that's exactly what it was. It was a violent insurrection. A violent insurrection, an no amount of whining about legitimate political discourse will ever change that.

Meanwhile, there was a moment today that just shows you the level of disrespect in Washington. So, pay attention, please, the chair of the Congressional Black Caucus, her name is Joyce Beatty, tweeting today, while heading to the House floor for votes, I respectfully asked my colleague, Representative Hal Rogers to put on a mask while boarding the train. He then poked my back, demanding I get on the train, when I asked him not to touch me, he responded, kiss my ass.

That, from a full-grown man, a full-grown elected representative from the state of Kentucky. Now, the congressman says that he apologized on the House floor, and later he put it in writing, saying that my words were not acceptable, and I expressed my regret to her.

So that is more than you can say for a lot of people in Washington these days, though, shouldn't have happened, he apologized, more than you can say for most of what happens in Washington these days.

That is happening as the House, the White House, I should say, is struggling to come up with a plan for the country to return to some semblance of normal. Whatever that is after nearly two years of pandemic. States moving faster than the federal government, planning to lift

mask mandates in schools and some indoor spaces. The New York Times reporting New York state will drop its indoor mask mandate for businesses tomorrow. It's not clear what will happen with the separate mask mandate in schools though.

But the White House seems to be missing the mark on messaging. That as the Supreme Court gives Alabama the green -- the green light to keep the GOP drawn congressional map critics say dilutes the power of black voters, even though a lower court ruled it likely violates the Voting Rights Act.

The court's order mean -- the court's order means that the map will be used by -- for Alabama's upcoming primary and very likely the midterms come fall. Like I said, Washington is volatile. And it's also on edge right now.

Very good person to talk about that is Jonathan Karl. Chief White House correspondent for ABC News. Good evening, Jonathan. Thank you so much for joining us. By the way, Jonathan's new book is called "Betrayal." His latest book is called "Betrayal: The Final Act of the Trump Show."

We're glad to have you here. Let's get to it. So, you have the RNC seemingly excusing violence, the former president, and others, stoking racial animus, we see the fight on voting rights. It feels like the country is really in a precarious place right now. Do things feel more tense, more chaotic in Washington, really in the country, Jonathan, than usual?

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JONATHAN KARL, CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, ABC NEWS: They sure -- they sure do, Don, but they have felt that way since the election of 2020. I think that what we saw now, though, play out before our eyes today, was a Republican Party deeply divided about how to approach that.

Mitch McConnell coming out without equivocation, denouncing what happened on January 6th, he's done that before. But to say -- used the word insurrection, by the way, significant and to openly take issue, forcefully take issue with the resolution passed by the leadership of the party to which he belongs, the RNC.

He did it because he sees Donald Trump as an existential threat, if not to the republic, to the Republican Party. And on the other side of Capitol Hill, Kevin McCarthy before your intrepid reporter Manu Raju caught up with him in the basement in the capitol, he was doing everything he could to avoid answering any questions about that resolution.

He -- my colleague Rachel Scott caught him as he was coming off the floor at one point, and he instructed her to call his office for an appointment. Kevin McCarthy hasn't actually done a network interview since January 6th, 2021. That's when he did several phone interviews with the three broadcast networks, and to ABC News he said that he begged Donald Trump to get out, to give a speech to the country, to call off the rioters, to get the Trump supporters to leave the capitol.

Now McCarthy -- look, Don, I believe, actually, that Kevin McCarthy looks at this situation on the substance, almost identically to the way Mitch McConnell does. He has called January 6th what it was at the time. I don't think that he embraces the idea that this was legitimate political discourse.

I think that if he did, he'd be out there embracing the resolution. Instead, he's running away from it because he fears that he can't get on the wrong side of Donald Trump, and he can't get -- more importantly, perhaps, he can't get, for Kevin McCarthy, he can't get on the wrong side of Donald Trump's true believers in Congress, and therefore he avoids the issue. But look --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: It's painful. At a loss for words.

KARL: The question is, is McConnell --

LEMON: We're at a loss or words for this, it's awful.

KARL: Is McConnell -- if McConnell is correct, that this is an existential threat, if not to the republic, to the Republican Party, then, you know, not only as McCarthy failed to show leadership on this, but he's worked against his own narrow political interests.

LEMON: Yes, of what's --

KARL: He's trying to manage Donald Trump. It has not worked.

LEMON: Well, let me jump in here. Because of everything that you just said, Mitch McConnell, Kevin McCarthy, and the things you reported in your book, "Betrayal," about Trump's efforts to overturn the election and how he looks back on January 6th fondly and made excuses for supporters by saying that the people were very angry, what is this effort to memory hold that day, why is that -- this effort here to rewrite history, what does that say about Trump's grip on the party? I mean, with Mitch McConnell coming out, does it say that he has less of a grip on the party or is it the same?

KARL: You know, there was an internal poll that was leaked by one of the Senate -- Republican Senate candidates in Ohio this week, that showed even in this internal Republican poll that 60 percent of the Republican electorate totally believed Donald Trump's big lie. You know, the lie that the election was stolen. And that's what they're looking at.

So, January 6th is about more than the awful events of the day and the attack on the capitol. It was an effort to overturn a presidential election. And Donald Trump remaining the single most powerful and influential figure in the Republican Party is fully committed to that effort, still to this day, still trying to pursue audits in states, still trying to get elections that were certified uncertified, as if it would do anything.

I mean, obviously the election is over and Joe Biden is president. But they're trying to -- you know, they're trying to manage that, and McConnell has come to the conclusion that that is simply not feasible.

Now, McConnell did two things that, you know, you wonder if you could really get him in -- to give an honest answer on this, whether he would regret. He voted against conviction in the Senate impeachment trial. After it was clear, and I had heard the people he was talking, that he was openly considering a guilty verdict in that.

[22:15:00]

And even as he voted not guilty, you know, he condemned -- he condemned Donald Trump and he blamed him for what happened. And the other thing he did is he single handedly killed the idea of an independent commission to investigate January 6th. That was last year, early summer, and, you know, now we have this committee, which has been roundly attacked by, you know, by Trump, of course, but also by McCarthy. And other prominent Republicans up and down the line.

But what's McConnell said about this committee? He said the committee is doing important work. And it is suggested that, you know, that the two Republicans in that committee are not Republicans that should be censured for trying to get to the bottom of what happened.

LEMON: Jonathan, thank you. You be well.

KARL: Thank you, Don. Great to be with you.

LEMON: We all saw the violence on the capitol on January 6th, yet Kevin McCarthy can't bring himself to say it wasn't legitimate political discourse. So why can't he just tell the truth? Well, we have someone here who can talk about that. His name is John Kasich. Talk about the state of the GOP, right after this.

[22:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): A growing divide among Republican leaders in Congress, Mitch -- Mitch McConnell breaking with the RNC, saying it should not be censuring members of the party because of their political views, and calling January 6th a violent insurrection, slamming the idea that it was a legitimate political discourse. And then there is the House GOP leader Kevin McCarthy, defending the RNC's actions.

So, let's bring in now CNN's senior commentator, that is John Kasich, the former Republican Congressman who was also governor of Ohio. John, thanks for joining us. I appreciate it.

I want to start with Kevin McCarthy. He is defending the censure that claims that January 6th was legitimate political discourse. I want you to listen to this again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCARTHY: Everybody knows anybody can -- broke in and caused damage, that was not called for, and those people, we've said from the very beginning, should be in jail. What they were talking about is the six RNC members who January 6th has subpoenaed who weren't even here, who were in Florida that day.

RAJU: So, you supported that resolution?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): The resolution was not about the six lawmakers. That is just nonsense. Why can't he just say that it wasn't political discourse?

JOHN KASICH, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Don, the reason why he's doing that is he's trying to become speaker, so he's kind of playing all these games about, well, if I make these people angry, then maybe I won't get it and I need to satisfy this other crowd.

I mean, it's like, you're like a whirling dervish, you know, you just, you've -- you've got no -- you've got no guide, you've got no -- you've got nothing, no compass that can tell you how to be, and he wants it so badly it's like he'll twist himself in knots.

It's disappointing, I don't know him well but I know him a little bit, I've met him. And it's just -- you know, it's just a blatant attempt to just be important. And when you try so hard to be important, usually you're not.

LEMON: In the case of McConnell, though, at least he said the truth out loud, that it was a violent insurrection to prevent the legitimate transfer of power. Listen, I don't know what he's going to say tomorrow. He could say something completely different. But at this point. Are these real cracks in the GOP --

KASICH: yes.

LEMON: -- or not?

KASICH: Don, I think you and I have been talking about it, and I said the cracks were coming.

LEMON: You did.

KASICH: You know, I think Trump in some ways is like the, you know, he's like the big bad wolf. You know, he huffs and he puffs and he never blows anybody's house down really. I mean, I know he can affect races but you're going to see him lose some other races where he has endorsements. It's going to come.

But think about what McConnell did today. I mean, I think McConnell has been brewing for a long time to basically tell Trump to take a hike and to call it a violent insurrection, which of course exactly what it was. Was wonderful. And you and I have talked about Mitch, and we don't always, you know, we don't always agree with what he does. I sometimes can be critical.

But I'll tell you at this time, give him an a plus for what he said, and the idea that they condemn these two people, right, the RNC, you know the RNC is becoming like a joke. You know, it's not to be taken too seriously, don, and some of these state parties, they've -- these are just Trump hangers on. But, you know, over time, I think more and more of them will stand up, and the -- it will start to clear. I really believe that.

LEMON: Well, you did say that you believe that people were moving away from Trump, and I wasn't so sure. I said we shall see. But he has this iron grip on the party.

KASICH: Yes.

LEMON: You just heard 60 percent from, according to Jon Karl, 60 percent of Republicans believe that, you know, it was -- that the election was stolen, right? So -- but Trump is focused on his defeat, right, is he going to drag down the rest of the party in the upcoming election?

KASICH: Don, you know, I think the House is going to -- is going to go Republican. Fundamentally, in the basic reason is because of gerrymandering. They get to draw the lines. The Republicans, members of the legislature, they draw the lines. We try to eliminate that partisan gerrymandering when I was in.

And now the Supreme Court in Ohio threw out the last map. But the gerrymandering it pretty well ensures the Republicans will be in the majority. Then the question gets to be what are they going to do. First of all, it's going to force Joe Biden to work more with Republicans but I don't know if House Republicans will say no matter what you do, we're not going to go along with you. That's a point you've made and a point I agree with.

It's not like you're just are there, you're in charge and you own the libs. I read that in a newspaper, it makes me sick, own the libs, what the hell is that all about? You know what I mean. You're there to do a job, not to own somebody or beat somebody or -- it's -- it's hurting the country.

[22:25:00]

LEMON: Yes, yes, certainly is. Well, some GOP senators are speaking out against the censure. John Thune, who was standing there behind Mitch McConnell when he said that it was a violent insurrection.

KASICH: Yes.

LEMON: Mitt Romney, right. You heard him and others.

KASICH: Yes.

LEMON: But is it even possible to steer the party away from Trump. He has $122 million war chest, chest, loyal supporters who demand fealty. KASICH: You know, Don, when I hear these polls, like 60 percent are,

you know, think Trump, you know, really, was legitimately elected, I'm -- you know, there's polls, I'm skeptical of all these polls. I take them with a grain of salt. Do I -- look, you're beginning to see more and more people walk away from them, more and more people who were saying, nope, I don't believe it, and even his guy down in Florida, that governor down there, he says, well, we're not fighting, yes, they are, they're all fighting.

And you saw the governor of Arkansas, he's a fine man, Asa Hutchinson, he said I don't care whether Trump runs or not. I'm -- if I want to run, I'm going to run. So, I think you're going to see more and more of that as he continues to lose, I think, lose clout.

LEMON: Yes. You know, we had a similar conversation, next question I'm going to ask you, in the studio last night. GOP representative Adam Kinzinger talked about the real possibility of civil war. Watch this.

KASICH: Yes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): To think that someday, some militia shows up somewhere to do something and then some counter militia shows up, and truly, at that point that's how you end up in a civil war.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: You fear potentially there could be a civil war here in the United States?

KINZINGER: I do. And a year ago I would have said no, not a chance. But I have come to realize that when we don't see each other as fellow Americans, when we begin to separate into cultural identities, when we begin to basically give up everything, we believe so we can be part of a group and then when you have leaders that come and abuse that faithfulness of that group to violent ends as we saw on January 6th, we've -- we would be naive to think it's not possible here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): What do you think? Are you worried too?

KASICH: I'm worried about where the country is today with neighbors, you know, hating neighbors and families and all that, Don. I don't want to go there. I've actually talked about that to -- to some of my friends about my concerns about the possibility of sporadic, or more widespread violence.

I'm not prepared to go there yet. I -- it may be that America has to bottom out even more before people say, wait a minute, we've got to stop the madness because it's getting out of control. So, I appreciate what he had to say. I'm not prepared to go there. Are you? I wonder what you think about it.

LEMON: Well, I'm not -- I'm worried of the possibility. I'm out there. KASICH: Yes.

LEMON: I see the hatred. You know, look -- yes, somewhat I don't want to talk about it but I've been seeing it the last six years since Trump went down that escalator, the escalation of hate and violence and, you know, and discourse, the way people talk to each other and the way people treat each other. And so, am I worried that it could happen? Yes. So, I -- am I sure if it's going to happen? I don't know. But I do worry.

KASICH: Remember, Don, we talked about this last time, there's those on the left that want to wipe out most of the values that we were raised with. There's those on the right, no change at all, and there's us in the middle, who believe we need to evolve in this society.

And the question is, do we, in the middle, who believe in not revolution, and not nothing, but evolution, can we be in a position of where we can order the day? Cooler heads have to prevail, Don, what I worry about is literally what's happening in the school board meetings, what's happening in families, what's happening in the community.

I'm -- I am concerned about it, but I'm not prepared to go so far as to predict that kind of widespread violence in this country. I'm really -- I believe more in the people that we'll come to our senses before we get farther down the road.

LEMON: I've got to go, John. I'm not sure I would qualify it the way you did about left, right, and center. I'm not sure that everybody on the left wants to get rid of values and everybody on the right, you know doesn't --

(CROSSTALK)

KASICH: No, no. I'm talking about on the woke left --

LEMON: Yes.

KASICH: -- not everybody on the left. I misspoke.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Yes. I don't -- I don't I believe in that woke thing. I think that woke thing is a pejorative, and I don't really like saying it. I don't believe in the term cancel culture either.

KASICH: OK.

LEMON: But we -- that's a conversation for another time. Thank you, sir.

KASICH: Or another day.

LEMON: Yes. See you later.

KASICH: Thank you, Don. LEMON: I appreciate it.

KASICH: Always good.

States rolling book COVID restrictions, but the CDC is still hesitating to recommend that, while the White House thinks about how to transition into -- transition out of, I should say, the pandemic. Are they behind the ball on this, being prudent? That's next.

[22:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): New York now set to join several other states moving forward with plans to ditch mask mandates. The New York Times is reporting that Governor Kathy Hochul will end the states' indoor mask mandate for businesses tomorrow. Not clear whether there will be changes with the masking in New York schools, though.

Meanwhile, CDC director Dr. Rochelle Walensky says, quote, "we're not quite there when it comes to loosening pandemic restrictions."

So, joining me now is Dr. Richina Bicette McCain, medical director at Baylor College of Medicine. So good to have you on again. Thank you for joining us, doctor.

RICHINA BICETTE MCCAIN, MEDICAL DIRECTOR, BAYLOR COLLEGE OF MEDICINE: Hi, Don.

[22:34:58]

LEMON: Hi. So, add New York to the list of states that are now planning to roll back mask mandates in public spaces, and in some schools. Nationwide, things are looking pretty good when you see all that green on the map, but the CDC director says cases and hospitalizations are still too high to ditch these masks. So, what is the right answer, doctor?

MCCAIN: You know, I don't always agree with the CDC, Don, but in this instance, I do think that they have it correct. Right now, they're recommending wearing a mask indoors in places where transmission is high. And the map that I have seen of the United States about 99 percent of U.S. counties are in places with high transmission.

So, yes, cases are dropping precipitously. But we have to put that in a little bit of different context. Instead of saying cases are dropping, let's change that headline, and say two years into the pandemic we are still reaching record high COVID cases, and record high deaths, and record high hospitalizations. Things are getting better, but they're not where they need to be.

LEMON: So, do you think New York -- New York state should be, you know, relaxing its mask mandate, or getting rid of it, do you think places where there's low transmission should be getting rid of masks?

MCCAIN: I think the colder it is outside the more layers of clothes you should have on. Right now, Don, we're in a blizzard of COVID-19, and it's not time to take off your coat.

LEMON: All right. Got you. Has the White House and the CDC dropped the ball here, you think? I mean, should they have laid out some sort of standardized criteria for ditching masks or anticipated states wanting to do this now that the Omicron surge has rolled through?

MCCAIN: The anticipation, absolutely, should have been there. People are tired of the pandemic. They're tired of hearing about vaccines. They're tired of wearing masks. So, we should have thought this through in terms of thinking about an end goal, and a point where things can start to change.

You know, there's been a lot of talk about the pandemic transitioning from a pandemic stage to an endemic stage. Twenty-five hundred deaths a day does not signify an endemic. We're still seeing significant stresses on the hospital system.

So, while we do have to start having those considerations in our mind, again, now is not the time to make sudden changes.

LEMON: Let's drill down on schools. OK? So, the CDC told CNN that that is -- it still recommends universal masking for all in schools. So how do officials in states like New Jersey or Delaware decide what to do when their governors drop those masking rules. Who should they be listening to?

MCCAIN: We should listen to ourselves, Don. History repeats itself. We have been here before, and we are not learning from our mistakes. Last summer we did the exact same thing. Cases were down. Hospitalizations were down. We prematurely declared that the pandemic was over, and we said that people no longer needed to wear masks. And what soon followed was the Delta wave.

We have got to follow what has gone on, just a few months ago. If we remove these layers of protection too early, we're going to find ourselves in the midst of another wave. Let's wait until we can see less deaths. Let's wait until we can see less of a stress on the hospital system, before we make changes that can land us right back in that same predicament.

LEMON: Boy. What you said was exactly right -- exactly right. We've been here before. I may have to leave my mask on indoors even though they're going to, you know, supposedly relax it tomorrow. We'll see. We love having you on, thank you, doctor. You be well.

MCCAIN: Thank you, Don. You as well.

LEMON: Thank you.

NFL leaders meet civil rights leaders. How did that meeting go? Will there be change? Stephen A. Smith, you don't have to say Smith, Stephen A. is here, he's next.

[22:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON (on camera): The Houston Texans saying that Brian Flores'

lawsuit against the NFL and three of its teams did not affect the search for a coach after announcing that Lovie Smith who is black got the job.

The Texans CEO saying that they had never seen a more thorough and inclusive hiring process. But that goes against the statement from Flores' lawyers. They are saying, and I quote here, "after a great interview and mutual interest it is obvious that the only reason Mr. Flores was not selected was his decision to stand up against racial inequality across the NFL."

Flores filing his lawsuit last week against the league and the Dolphins, Giants and Broncos, citing racial discrimination and sham interviews. NFL commissioner Roger Goodell meeting with civil rights leaders in the wake of the lawsuit.

Let's discuss now what I call him, the legendary ESPN host, I almost called you CNN host, the legendary ESPN host Stephen A. Smith, the host of First Take. Stephen, look, you have me up now watching First Take, I watch ESPN because of you, OK. I'm just going to say that right out.

STEPHEN A. SMITH, SPORTS COMMENTATOR, ESPN: Thank you, man.

LEMON: So, thank you for doing what you do.

SMITH: Thank you, my man, I appreciate it.

LEMON: This is an important story --

SMITH: Thank you so much.

LEMON: -- I'm so happy that you're here to talk about it. So, Flores files suit. It's in contention for this job, and instead, he goes to -- it goes to another black coach. Does that in any way negate his claims?

SMITH: Well, I'm sure the teams like the Houston Texans are hoping so, the rest of the NFL owners in the league are hoping so. He files a class action, you know, lawsuit against them, they're in a world of trouble. Now obviously their initial position of the National Football League which I think was a mistake, for saying his case had no merit. Well, it absolutely does have merit.

The Rooney Rule which was implemented in 2003 called for NFL teams to at least interview an African-American candidate, and obviously over the years it's been modified to some degree. Nevertheless, the goal was to elevate the number of African- Americans that were accorded head coaching positions.

[22:44:59]

In 2003 when the rule was implemented there were three African- American head coaches in the National Football League. In the year 2022, right now, there happen to be one, until the other day. And so, when you look at it from that perspective it was clear that something needed to be said, something needed to be done. And in the end, what it comes down to is that the NFL, meaning the team owners, more so than the league office, they messed with the wrong one because this guy Brian Flores doesn't seem to be playing games. He wants to take the position and he's willing to put his career on the line to send that message.

LEMON: Stephen, let's -- let's hear, why don't we hear from Movie Smith, he wouldn't talk about Flores' lawsuit but he did say this. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LOVIE SMITH, COACH, HOUSTON TEXANS: I realize the amount of black head coaches there are in the National Football League, Mike Tomlin, and I think there's me. I don't know of many more. So, there's a problem. I mean, it's obvious for us. But after there's a problem, what are you going to do about it?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Listen, the Texans didn't hire Flores but they did hire a black head coach who is talking about the problem. Step in the right direction, Stephen?

SMITH: It's a step in the right direction. That's undeniable. At the same time, I would have loved to have seen Lovie Smith be a bit more emphatic in his language. Let's be clear about something. This is a man that once got to the Chicago Bears to the Super Bowl -- a Super Bowl appearance. A Super Bowl appearance in which he lost to Tony Dungy.

You would think that he'd have the cache to be a bit more outspoken a bit more demonstrative, dare I say, in speaking on the issue. Because I think it calls to that right now. Unfortunately, that's not how he came across in my estimation, but nevertheless it is undeniable that it's a step in the right direction because a lot of people knew that they had some heat and Houston Texans are one of them from this perspective.

They may not be a part of this lawsuit as it pertains to Brian Flores but if you recall they had hired David Culley on the position of coach from the Baltimore Ravens. He was the head coach for this year, a lot of people applauded how tough the team was to play against and how hard they fought, et cetera, et cetera.

And after one year he was fired and he was fired by a rookie G.M. Nick Caserio who (Inaudible) could sure fire themself. I mean, you're looking at the job, your first-year guy, you didn't do anything, what did you fire him for? To kept your job. These are the kind of things that make you question is. Because at the time that Lovie Smith became a candidate, Josh McCown was actually a candidate for that head coaching position.

Don Lemon, he's a high school coach. He was playing football, but he's coaching high schools. Never coached college. Never coached in the NFL. And he was a leading candidate for the Houston Texans job according to numerous reports until Brian Flores filed his lawsuit. So that should tell us all something.

LEMON: Who did he know? Is he related to -- I mean --

SMITH: I mean, it's friendships. I mean, for all we know they could have pictures of somebody. I don't know what the hell is going on. But there is no question, there is no question that something is awry, something has been awry for decades.

LEMON: I know.

SMITH: And you've got to remember, we've seen this before. We saw it in baseball before, even, you know, in the 1920s for crying out loud when Kenesaw Mountain Landis took over as commissioner from 1920 to 1944 because the Black Sox Scandal and he was empowered and he had so much power that the owners granted to him that he delayed Jackie Robinson into the sport of baseball.

The commissioners in this day and age don't have that power. The owners can claim some of those things back and as a result, Roger Goodell can't do the kind of things that he wants to do, which is why you saw those civil rights leaders meet up with him virtually to address this issue and let him know something needed to be done.

LEMON: Well, let me get into that before we ran out of time. Because Roger Goodell says that he -- that the league will reevaluate diversity policies. He says that the lack of black coaches is, I quote here, "unacceptable." And it's good that he is saying that and meeting with these civil rights leaders.

SMITH: It is.

LEMON: But how much of this is in his control versus as you say the team owners?

SMITH: Limited control. You can say that they can modify or amend the NFL Constitution to some degree to make sure that punitive damages are implemented into the proceeding. You can get Congress involved. Remember, even though the NFL is supposed to be a private industry, there is public funding that's involved.

Look at all of these stadiums, over 20 stadiums, new stadiums have been built, obviously assisted by taxpayer dollars, since 1997. When you're utilizing public funds, that was the case that I was told, these individuals approached Roger Goodell about it, they said, wait a minute, we are approaching this from a civil rights perspective. They are taxpayers, they are American citizens who happen to be black, who assist in funding these stadiums and building the coffers of NFL owners.

[22:49:53]

We'll be damned if we're going to sit here quietly. We don't need you to bring in experts. We are experts and we're ready to address this with the fervor that it deserves. I was told that is the message that they sent to Roger Goodell and we're going to see what happens as a result of it.

LEMON: Stephen A., I need to go and be fresh so when I turn on First Take tomorrow you're sitting there and you've got the sports news for me. Thank you, Stephen.

SMITH: You never, you never, ever have to worry about me being ready for First Take. I'm always ready for that show.

LEMON: Thank you, brother. I appreciate you appearing. I'll see you tomorrow, thanks.

SMITH: No doubt, take care.

LEMON: Records broken, barriers shattered, Oscars so take this, diverse? Stay with us.

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[22:54:59]

LEMON (on camera): Take this. And the winner is! No. And the Oscar goes to. One day I'm going to hear that and they're going to say Don Lemon! And I'll be like, my gosh, I want to thank the academy. Where's my award? I want to thank the academy. the 20 -- I've lost it.

The 2022 Oscar nominations are out today and after years of Oscars so white, today we're seeing barriers shattered and records broken. Here we go. Like Troy Kotsur. He is now the first deaf man to earn an acting nomination for his performance in CODA. There is Ari Wegner, she is the second female cinematographer to be nominated for an Oscar for "The Power of the Dog."

That film's director, Jane Campion, by the way, becoming the first woman nominated for more than once for best director.

And EGOT could be next for Lin-Manuel Miranda getting a nod for a song from Disney's "Encanto." That is Beyonce also nominated for her song "Be Alive" for the movie "King Richard." Her first -- "King Richard" was amazing, by the way. I did see that one.

And as for a non-first, look, this is Denzel Washington, you should look too. Denzel Washington is nominated, the most nominated black actor in history earning his latest nomination for his performance in "The Tragedy of Macbeth." And by the way, he already has the most nominated, was the most nominated black actor, again. So, he broke his own record today.

Now, look. There's always more work to do but it's also important to celebrate a diverse class of nominees being recognized for the work that they do and the art that they make. It is important to acknowledge the wins. Congratulations to all the nominees, everyone congratulations. Congratulations. OK.

So up next leader against leader. Top Republicans breaking with each other over the RNC's big January 6th censure resolution.

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