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Don Lemon Tonight

U.S. To Send Troops To Poland Amid Fears Of Russian Invasion Of Ukraine; Canadian Judge Issues Order To Remove Protesters; Ukraine Crisis, Trucker Protest, Inflation: What Does It All Mean For The Economy; Dave Chappelle Objects To An Affordable Housing Plan; Joe Rogan Apologizes For Using N-Word; Former Minneapolis Officers Charged With Violating George Floyd's Civil Rights. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired February 11, 2022 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: The Russia-Ukraine situation is urgent. They're telling Americans to leave within 24 to 48 hours. Three thousand more U.S. troops are heading to Eastern Europe to bolster NATO allies. Has diplomacy failed and it's just a matter of time of when Russia invades Ukraine?

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST: I think none of us know because it's all up to one person. The Russian political system is really extraordinary, almost unlike any other system in the world. It all depends on one person, and that person is playing his cards close to the chest.

Here is what he has done. He has surrounded Ukraine on three sides. There are long-planned military exercises taking place with Belarus. So, he has in place what government sources as about 75 to 80 percent of the forces he needs were he to decide to invade Ukraine. But he still says he wants to talk to Macron of France. He has a call scheduled with Biden. So, he is playing a game where he is still trying to press for some guarantees, security concessions and such.

And so, the question is, is there some space there for a diplomatic off-ramp? I don't think it's too late. I think that Putin's first objective is to get those concessions without war. And then, if there is no other way, he has created a circumstance where he can manage a very quick effective military victory.

But my guess is it won't be an all-out. It will be some more limited incursion probably to the eastern part of Ukraine where there are Russian speakers. He has done this before in Georgia, where you essentially -- quote, unquote -- "liberate" those places that have Russian speakers claiming that you are protecting that population.

One fact that doesn't get reported often: The Russian government has given 800,000 passports to those people in Ukraine in those two areas I'm talking about, basically Eastern Ukraine, Donbas area, so he can claim, the Russian government can claim, we're protecting Russian citizens. And so, that is the -- that is probably the most likely military incursion if it comes to that.

LEMON: Okay. Can we drill down on this phone call tomorrow that the president is going to have with Vladimir Putin? What specifically does he need to say, Fareed?

ZAKARIA: I think that Biden has handled this pretty well. He has rallied the West together. Europeans are largely speaking on the same page as the United States. You know, there are naturally a few differences here and there, but by and large, very strong support for the idea that any Russian military intervention would trigger sanctions, would trigger the end of business as usual, would almost certainly trigger the end Nord Stream, that pipeline that will carry Russian gas to Germany.

Now, what Biden has to do is to figure out, is there some creative space for some kind of climb down? Because he has made clear, I'm not going to give on the big issue, which is you want me to guarantee I'm never -- Ukraine will never be part of NATO, we are not going to make a guarantee like that.

But, can we have a NATO-Russian strategic dialogue? Could we have a big international conference with the prominent members of the Security Council, plus Ukraine, plus Germany as part of an effort to see we hear your security concerns, you hear ours, we come up with some rules of the road (ph) about forced deployments and military maneuvers?

It feels to me like there is space there if one were to be creative. You don't give in on the big thing. You try to find some area for diplomacy. I think Biden, so far, has handled this well. The question is really, can he find that diplomatic off ramp?

LEMON: We're hearing that the individuals at the State Department are calling U.S. citizens in Ukraine, telling them to leave immediately. Not an automated message, Fareed, a real person. Does this show the concern level here, how worried they are that this could turn into a mess like what happened in Afghanistan?

ZAKARIA: I think it shows that they are aware that there is a significant possibility that this goes to war. And they wanted to do two things. They want to be sure that nobody says, you were caught flat footed. And by the way, I think the memories of Afghanistan do play a part there. And secondly, they don't want -- genuinely, they don't want any Americans to come in harm's way.

So, I think it's precautionary on two ends there. They'll be taking precautions so that they don't get politically blamed for being unaware, and they're taking precautions so that American lives are not put at risk.

I don't think it necessarily means, look, we -- this is a fascinating case in diplomacy where we are looking at the capabilities, and all of those capabilities suggest action.

[23:04:59]

But ultimately, it's not the capabilities alone, it's the intentions. What are Putin's intentions? We know he can invade Ukraine. Russia has the largest land army in Europe. The question is, does he really want to?

LEMON: Yeah. Russia is not only the powerful country having issues with its neighbors. There is also the U.S. dealing with the Canadian trucking protest at our border. We've been watching this happen all week. Of course, China hoping to take back Taiwan, the reason they're supporting Russia. Granted these are all at different levels, but how unsettling is the tension really across the globe right now?

ZAKARIA: Don, it's interesting you put those altogether because I think at some level, there is a common theme here. We're seeing the rise of nationalism.

LEMON: Right.

ZAKARIA: We're seeing the rise of nationalism everywhere. And we're seeing the rise of a certain kind of popular frustration. And so, part of what's going on with Russia and Ukraine is a story of two nationalisms, Ukrainian nationalism on the one hand, Russian nationalism on the other. You see even in the U.S. and Canada that that has a lot more to do with frustration with COVID and COVID mandates.

And, of course, in China, you have this -- it's almost like we've entered an age where we are every nation is feeling and every political figure feels there is an advantage to playing the nationalist card, whether it's Xi Jinping, whether it's Vladimir Putin, and it's true even in -- even in the United States.

LEMON: Fareed Zakaria, thank you, sir. Have a good weekend. Let's see what happens over the weekend.

ZAKARIA: Thank you, Don.

LEMON (on camera): Thank you very much. I appreciate it. So, make sure you watch "Fareed Zakaria GPS," 10 a.m., 1:00 p.m., on Sunday right here on CNN.

Breaking news, a judge in Canada issuing an order tonight allowing police to move in and clear protesters from blocking the busiest border crossing between the U.S. and Canada. Protesters vowing not to give up their fight. But many Canadians and Americans unhappy about the impact on jobs and wages.

More now from CNN's Lucy Kafanov.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LUCY KAFANOV, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In a battle that started over vaccine mandates for truck drivers entering Canada, now a state of emergency in Ontario with Canada's prime minister pushing back against blocking border crossings.

JUSTIN TRUDEAU, PRIME MINISTER OF CANADA: This unlawful activity has to end and it will end. Of course, I can't say too much more now as to exactly when or how this ends, because unfortunately, we are concerned about violence. But the absolute safest way for this to end is for everyone to return to your communities now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAFANOV (voice-over): A court injunction now in effect gives police more power to stop protests and the blockade of the Ambassador Bridge leading to the United States. Protesters blocking the Canadian side of the border may now face legal action.

DOMINIC LEBLANC, CANADIAN MINISTER OF INTERGOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS: We think that that will help remove the illegal blockades at border crossings that have threatened not only the Canadian economy but thousands of jobs.

KAFANOV (voice-over): Three Canadian U.S. border crossings in Michigan, North Dakota, and Montana have been at times cut off by the demonstrations. The U.S. auto industry particularly hard hit by the protests. Michigan's governor sounding the alarm.

GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER (D-MI): Every minute this goes on is lost wages. It's damage to our businesses. This is an illegal blockade. And while people have the right to protest, they don't have a right to illegally block the largest land border crossing in North America. Hundreds of millions of dollars a day are being lost. There are Michiganders who are hardworking simply want to show up to their job and are out of work right now.

GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER (D-MI): U.S. automakers are cancelling shifts and running on reduced capacity. By one estimate, workers in Michigan could lose up to $51 million in wages just this week. Some truckers say they are frustrated by the slowdowns that have persisted for days.

DARCY GINGER, TRUCKER: Keep one lane open. If they want to do their little show, let them do it, but keep a lane open.

KAFANOV (voice-over): The American Trucking Association says they don't support vaccine mandates, but strongly opposes any protest activities that disrupt public safety and compromise the economic and national security of the United States.

Truckers in Canada are actually vaccinated at a rate of nearly 90 percent. Yet a slow roll convoy of trucks is expected to head to a border crossing in Buffalo this weekend to support the protests, stoking fear that continued slowdowns could worsen the impact the rising inflation in the U.S.

(On camera): And Don, even though any protesters blocking the Canadian side of the border are now facing legal action, as you can see behind me, the crowd is still out here, it is a festive atmosphere, they're holding firm for now, but obviously, a lot can change over the next few hours. Don?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: All right. Lucy, thank you very much. Appreciate that. Fears of Russia invading Ukraine, protests, as you just saw at the U.S.- Canada border, inflation hitting a 40-year high, what does it all mean for the economy? Paul Krugman is here to talk about it next.

[23:10:01]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The economy is on edge tonight. With fears of Russia invading Ukraine, the protest at the U.S.-Canada border, and inflation hitting a 40-year high, what does all this unease mean for an already stressed-out economy?

There is so much to discuss with "The New York Times" columnist and economist Paul Krugman. Paul, good to see you. Thank you for joining us this evening.

I want to start with these trucking protests, if you will. This isn't just a problem for Canada. U.S. factory workers are estimated to lose up to $51 million in wages this week alone. If this doesn't stop soon, how damaging could this be to the economy long-term?

[23:15:00]

PAUL KRUGMAN, ECONOMIST, COLUMNIST FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES: Well, I mean, long-term probably not that much, but short-term. This is a -- look, we don't have a U.S. auto industry and a Canadian auto industry. We have a North American auto industry, which is very tightly integrated. I mean, Detroit and Windsor across the border are one metropolitan area.

What we've got now is we've got a small group of people disrupting a really important industry that is important to both sides of the border and in general. This is trade between U.S. and Canada. It is a big deal and most of it goes by trucks. So, this is not helpful. Let's put it that way.

LEMON: Yeah.

KRUGMAN: It's really disruptive. The damage could quite easily end up being in the billions of dollars, if this goes on for an extended period of time.

LEMON: Well, goodness! Also today, fears of a Russian invasion of Ukraine causing stocks to slide, all prices to surge to a seven-year high. How unsettling is this for an already pandemic and inflation stressed economy?

KRUGMAN: So, let me give you -- my version of where we are right now is that we are -- we've had a smashing economic recovery. We've gotten back to something close to full much faster than anyone anticipated, but we've had a lot of sorts of growing pains, disruptions, that have led to inflation being high.

Now, that is probably not going to persist. It's -- you know, it is appropriate that the Federal Reserve needs to raise interest rates. You need to cool things down a bit. But the odds are still that by sometime in 2023, we'll look back and say, you know, we had the burst of inflation, but it was worth it to get back the full employment, have a full recovery in really just about a year, which we didn't at all have after the previous crisis.

But that -- it is hard to tell people that when they're seeing prices go up and everything that's happening in the world right now is not so much recovery as it is intensifying these probably short-term stresses.

LEMON: So, if there is an invasion, what actually happens to the economy?

KRUGMAN: Oh, look, if the U.S. economy is pretty resilient, the shock is going to be far smaller than what happened in the Arab oil embargo in '73 or the Iranian revolution in '79. It is going to be an energy price shock. It's going to add to inflation. It's going to be leaving people unhappy.

But we are not that -- we are not an economy that was already, sort of, teetering on the edge of a crisis spiral. There is no hint of that in the data, not right now. The prices are up, but inflation isn't feeding on itself the way it did in the 70s, which means that even if we get a nasty shock, it's going to be not nearly as serious as in the past. Obviously, is not what the doctor ordered right now.

LEMON: Yeah. I know you've seen the polls, and poll after poll shows Americans are disappointed in the economy. Just 33 percent are satisfied. That's according to the latest Gallup poll. But the facts are, the economy is growing at a fast pace, as you pointed out in decades. You said that it's, you know, I'm paraphrasing here. Unemployment is down. Wages are up. Of course, inflation is a major problem. Americans focusing only on the negative. How do you explain this disconnect, Paul?

KRUGMAN: Well, part of it is, look, people not only focus on inflation, but they focus on highly visible prices. So, the assessment of the economy depends a lot on the price of gasoline, which is one thing that presidents have almost no impact on. So, it's extremely bad luck for the Biden administration.

And partly, it is the -- I do think that the media coverage -- you know, I don't want to get -- go too far down that line, but it is amazing how little press the good news gets or how much press the bad news gets.

And there's a real disparity. If you look at surveys and you ask people, how is the economy? They say, it's terrible. You ask, how are you doing? And they're pretty upbeat. So --

LEMON: Yeah.

KRUGMAN: So, something is going on here. And on top of that, there's enormous partisan divide. You know, the Democrats are not pleased with inflation, but Republicans think that it's worse than 1980, which makes no sense at all.

LEMON: You know, Bernie Sanders tweeting, and I quote here, "Corporate greed is Chipotle increasing its profits by 181 percent last year to $764 million, giving its CEO 137 percent pay raise to $38 million in 2020 and blaming the rising cost of a burrito on a minimum wage worker, who got a 50 cent pay raise. That's not inflation. That's price gouging."

Is this really what's happening here?

[23:19:58]

Because I noticed that some merchants are raising their prices --

KRUGMAN: Yeah.

LEMON: -- and it's not necessarily because of the supply chain. It is because they want to raise their prices.

KRUGMAN: Yeah, I mean, corporate greed is real but it is not new. So, it is not easy to argue that corporations have gotten greedy or than they were a year ago. What is possibly true is that inflation may be giving some corporations kind of cover to be more rapacious than usual. And I wouldn't dismiss that as a factor, but it's certainly not the main cause of the inflation we're seeing.

That said, tracking (ph) down, we always say, look, we're going to get serious about anti-trust, we're going to get serious about looking for price gouging, can't do any harm and could help the situation.

LEMON: Paul, we love having you. Thank you for joining us this evening.

KRUGMAN: Take care.

LEMON (on camera): Dave Chappelle prompting an uproar after speaking out against an affordable housing project in his Ohio community. But his camp is saying it's not what it seems. We will explain, next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVE CHAPPELLE, COMEDIAN: I don't why the village council would be afraid of litigation from --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): Dave Chappelle at the center of controversy this week. Video emerging showing the comedian speaking out against proposed affordable housing as part of a new development plan near his Ohio home. The (INAUDIBLE) sparking accusations of nimbyism. You know, not in my backyard. But CNN's Chloe Melas reports there is a lot more to the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHAPPELLE: Do you hear me?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

CHAPPELLE: Hi, I'm Dave Chappelle.

CHLOE MELAS, CNN ENTERTAINMENT REPORTER (voice-over): On Monday, the comedian took over the mic at a village council meeting in Yellow Springs, Ohio to voice his opposition to an affordable housing portion of a development plan near his home, and he didn't mince words.

CHAPPELLE: I cannot believe you would make people addition. For you, we look like clowns. I am not bluffing. I will take it all up the table.

MELAS (voice-over): Yellow Springs is located about 20 miles east of Dayton. According to a 2020 census, it's a small community of about 3,700 residents, including Chappelle and his family, and where he has had held several outdoor shows.

Back in November 2020, overland developers bought a 53-acre area of land as part of a development of single-family homes, townhouses and duplexes, according to the "Yellow Springs News." Then in December 2021, during a virtual town council meeting, several residents, including Chappelle, voiced their concerns against the portion of the plan that would add up to 140 mixed income level homes.

CHAPPELLE: I'm adamantly oppose. Obviously, I lived behind the development or the proposed development.

MELAS (voice-over): The "Dayton Daily News" says several residents raised concerns over increased traffic, a lack of sidewalks, and the overall setup of the development, while Chappelle voiced concerns about his financial ventures in town.

CHAPPELLE: I do have many business interests in town. I have invested millions of dollars in town. If you push this thing through, what I'm investing in is no longer applicable.

MELAS (voice-over): The "Dayton Daily News" says Chappelle's company, Iron Table Holdings, LLC, currently has plans to build a restaurant and comedy club in Yellow Springs. But at Monday's meeting, he threatened to pull those projects if the affordable housing option in the way it's being implemented wasn't scrapped.

CHAPPELLE: I don't know why the village council would be afraid of litigation from a $24 million-a-year company, while they kick out a $65 million-a-year company.

MELAS (voice-over): Following Monday's meeting, the council voted and deadlocked on the affordable housing plan, voting 2 to 2 against it. Since then, video of Chappelle speaking out at the meeting has gone viral, sparking controversy about whether or not he was trying to actually block affordable housing, something his publicist says, simply isn't true.

In a statement to CNN Thursday, Chappelle's publicist, Carla Sims, said -- quote -- "Dave Chappelle didn't kill affordable housing. Concerned residents and a responding village council killed a half- baked plan which never actually offered affordable housing."

Sims went on to say, neither Dave nor his neighbors are against affordable housing. However, they are against the poorly vetted, cookie cutter, sprawl-style development deal which has little regard for the community, culture, and infrastructure of the village.

(On camera): Monday's vote by the Yellow Springs Village Council didn't kill the entire plan, it only scrapped the affordable housing portion of it. Don?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON (on camera): All right. Chloe, thank you very much. I appreciate that. I want to bring in now CNN political commentator David Swerdlick. David, good evening to you. So, let's get this straight because there is a lot, you know --

DAVID SWERDLICK, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, ASSISTANT EDITOR FOR THE WASHINGTON POST: Yeah.

LEMON: -- Dave Chappelle is kind of saying one thing and the community is saying the other. He's getting a lot of push back, I should say. He is famous although he is acting as a private resident and business owner. That's his capacity here. What do you think? Is the anger against him warranted?

SWERDLICK: Yeah, good evening, Don. So, I think, first of all, couple of lessons here. One, don't leap at everything that you see on Twitter, which we are all guilty of from time to time. And two, we shouldn't make celebrities our sort of folk heroes if they are only our heroes when it comes to what they do as entertainers or athletes or whatever.

[23:30:05]

But let me back up from there and explain what I think is going on here. Chloe did a great report. This is one of those stories that remind us why we still need local news. I learned more reading the "Yellow Springs News" and the "Dayton Daily News" than the national news today about what was going on.

It sounds like it is not the Dave Chapelle. It is this staunch opponent of affordable housing. It sounds like there are various camps in this little suburb, this college town of Yellow Springs, that have different visions of the way the town should go.

Dave Chapelle is in one camp. He is also the most famous resident of the town. He also might be the richest resident of the town. He is also planning businesses in this town. He appears, based on what I can figure out from reading this news account, to oppose some part or maybe all of this development.

These developers who own these 52 acres, even if the town doesn't approve the affordable housing, what they can do, Don, is still build, you know, regular housing units on this land. So, I think this is a battle that is still just playing out.

LEMON: Okay. I think you answered some of this. But just slow down for certain here.

SWERDLICK: Yeah.

LEMON: The pushback from community members did knicks the affordable housing part of this development. So, there is a legitimate not in my backyard criticism to be had here? I mean, to be fair, to blame Dave Chappelle alone when this is a broader social problem is not -- that's not fair, is it?

SWERDLICK: So, I think it's partially fair and partially not fair. There is a not in my backyard component as far as I can tell reading this coverage, Don, but it's not clear whether it's over the affordable housing, which is what got all the attention on Twitter, and -- or whether it's over the fact that it might be that Dave Chapelle and the group of citizens that he is with don't want this development at all.

And I think that that story is still kind of coming to light. And, again, I think people should look to the local papers there. Where it got out of hand on Twitter is that, you know, you have people now primed to see what Dave Chappelle is going to do.

Don, if I could back up a little and say this, most of Dave Chapelle's career, he enjoyed this reputation as this person who spoke truth to power, found funny, clever, really hilarious ways to skewer race relations in this country, et cetera.

The last couple years, especially with his last special on Netflix last year, he got more of a reputation as a curmudgeon. His last special wasn't that funny. It was -- a lot of people, myself included, found it transphobic.

So, now, you have people primed to think of him as this curmudgeonly guy. People see a headline that says he is against the affordable housing and leap at it before knowing that there is a whole back and forth going on here in this town.

LEMON: I'm glad you said that, not to leap on everything on Twitter, and Twitter is not the real world. You know, you got to read legitimate --

SWERDLICK: Right.

LEMON: -- publications and legitimate news places. There is so much, you know -- it's not fake news. But yeah, fake news out there. SWERDLICK: It's incomplete.

LEMON: It's incomplete, yeah.

SWERDLICK: Yeah.

LEMON: For many middle-class families around the country, though, a huge part of their wealth is tied to their homes.

SWERDLICK: Right.

LEMON: I mean, nimbyism is real but --

SWERDLICK: Sure.

LEMON: -- the way our economy is set up, people have every incentive to oppose these things in the neighborhoods. At the same time, the need for this housing grows as home prices and rents go up. Is there a broader problem that needs attention here?

SWERDLICK: It is real. I'm not a suburban college town homeowner anymore, I live in D.C. now, but I used to live in Chapel Hill and I am familiar with all these issues because we had them in that town. Sometimes, I was on one side of an issue and other times I was on another side as a homeowner. And you realize that these things are complicated and sticky and personalities are involved and business interests are involved.

I think we will get to the bottom of what Dave Chapelle wants and what the people he is aligned with want. But I don't think that's what came out on Twitter yesterday.

And, again, just to go back to this thing about people's public image, Don, part of it is because over 10, 20 or more years, Dave Chappelle has built up this reputation among the public, among fans, and now he is caught up in a situation where he is trying to act as a private citizen, but you're not just like every other private citizen.

And partly because you're famous, partly because he is trying to build a business in that town, and partly because, you know, he is throwing his weight around as a guy in town with a lot of money to invest.

You can't have it both ways if you're Dave Chappelle. You can't be treated like just any other Yellow Springs if you go to that microphone and say, I'm Dave Chapelle and I have millions of dollars and I will pull it. I think that is where we are.

[23:35:05]

LEMON: Thank you, sir. Good to see you.

SWERDLICK: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: Be well. From COVID misinformation to the N-word. Joe Rogan is no stranger to controversy. My next guest says it is not about cancelling him, but exposing what he is all about. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:40:00]

LEMON: So, it has been six days since Joe Rogan apologized after clips went viral of him saying the N-word on his podcast. That apology, Rogan's second lately. The first was in response to the criticism over COVID misinformation on his show.

So, joining me now, Peniel Joseph, who wrote an op-ed for cnn.com. and it is called "Don't pretend you don't know what Joe Rogan is all about." Peniel, thank you for joining us. Fascinating column. Let's get into it. What are people pretending? What's really at issue here?

PENIEL JOSEPH, PROFESSOR OF HISTORY AT UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS, AUTHOR: Well, I think, Don, what's really at issue is this idea that Joe Rogan is every man. He is sort of the average American who sort of not left, not right, he independent -- he is an independent thinker, maybe kind of some libertarian leaning, and he sort of brings all sides to the table.

And I think what that obscure is really what is he peddling, right? He is peddling a kind of division and tolerance and misinformation. Yes, at times, racism when you're comparing, you know, Black folks in Philadelphia where I went to grad school and "Planet of the Apes," which is a sci-fi film with Charlton Heston from 1968, about a future with intelligent chimpanzees and intelligent monkeys and comparing Black people to that. Yeah, that is the racist comparison. You can apologize for that. But we can't say that that instance is not a racist instance.

So, basically, what he is doing is fanning the flames of the cultural wars, fanning the flames of the political divisions, and really fanning the flames of the kind of intolerance that now has a wide berth throughout American political culture.

LEMON (on camera): Soon after the compilation of Rogan saying the N- word went viral, he released a lengthy apology on his Instagram. This is some of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE ROGAN, PODCASTER: There is nothing I can do to take that back. I wish I could. Obviously, that's not possible. I do hope that if anything, that this can be a teachable moment. Because I never thought it would ever be taken out of context and put in a video like that. And now that it is, holy (bleep), it looks bad.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): So, he also went on to say that the clip that went viral was a hit job, Peniel. But I thought his apology included some important elements. Shouldn't he be given the opportunity to put it into action?

JOSEPH: Yeah, I think he should. I mean, this is really not about cancelling Joe Rogan, but we have to understand, this is a show that introduced the co-founder of the Proud Boys. This is a show that has climate change deniers. This is a show that is trafficking misinformation and sort of disinformation.

There is a reason why he is getting support from Trump and DeSantis and some of the far, far right-wing conservatives because they look at him as somebody who is an ally, who is in fellowship with them. If he wants to tell us that that's not the case, that that's not the truth, he has got to show that not just with words but with deeds.

So, a lot of this -- I say this in the peace, look, you can enjoy Joe Rogan, but really enter at your own risk and understand what it is you're enjoying.

LEMON: Right.

JOSEPH: That's all. Because there is freedom of speech. We have to remember, Don, that amendment right is to protect us against the government oppressing us because of our speech. All of our speech has accountability, right? So, if we engage in racist speech or antisemitic speech or homophobic or transphobic speech, there is going to be accountability, right?

In his case, he has got 11 million listeners, $100 million investment from Spotify. We have to face the facts that right now, we are a country that's politically and racially and culturally divided. And a lot of the most popular social media platforms aren't about elevating us. They're not about bringing us together and uniting us. They're actually about the opposite.

And guess what, we live in a free country. People have the right to say, look, I enjoy this, I enjoy this person who is spreading division and disinformation and yes at times racism.

LEMON: But you also have the right to say that it's misinformation and division and to call it out. I thought -- this is what summed it up for me. I don't think we have a full screen of this. But as I was reading, because you talk about, you said the real issue isn't whether to cancel Joe Rogan although some have advocated for Spotify to end its relationship in the wake of the controversy.

It is about exposing who Joe Rogan is and admitting that his brand of conversation at times traffics in conspiracy theories, cultural intolerance and blatant racism, attracts millions of avid listeners and corporate sponsors hungry to advertise their wears of such followers.

Rogan is in fact an agent of the social ills which he packages and sends out to his audience clothed in the language of moderation and moral equivalence.

[23:45:00]

LEMON: For example, in addition to the use of the N-word, Rogan has made waves by suggesting that because you can never be woken up, it will eventually get to where white men are not allowed to talk. A ridiculous assessment, but some people believe that. So, again, I thought that summed it up because he is on a platform that is -- it is advertising platform. He is selling his wears and people are buying it.

JOSEPH: Yes.

LEMON: And people have the right to call either Spotify or him out for it. Quickly, if you can give me your response to that, please.

JOSEPH: No, no, absolutely. So, we have the right to really support a kind of capitalism that's trying to elevate us and that is about social justice, that is about ending racism, or we can support a capitalist, because remember, he is not in every man. A $100 million investment, most Americans don't have $100 million. So, we have the right to support this kind of division and divisive platform as well.

But we should just be honest about it. And he should be honest about it. If he wants to change and transform that platform, one, I think he is going to lose millions of listeners, right? But he can do it. I think that would be something to see and something encouraging.

But we have to be honest. This is not moderation. This is not independent thinking. And remember, the only people cancelling people in the United States is the far-right wing, which is cancelling our ability to talk about Black history, racial injustice, and also --

LEMON: And the truth. And the truth. And the truth, really. Thank you. I appreciate it.

JOSEPH: Absolutely.

LEMON: We'll be right back.

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[23:50:00]

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LEMON: Shocking new testimony in the federal trial of three ex- officers charged in relation to George Floyd's death. Former Minneapolis officers J. Alexander Kueng, Thomas Lane, and Tou Thao are charged with violating Floyd's civil rights.

Today, Special Agent Matthew Vogel testified that then-officers Lane and Kueng did not mention anything to their sergeant or others about how Floyd was restrained.

Yesterday, Lieutenant Richard Zimmerman testified that he was told nothing by officers on the scene about Floyd being placed in the prone position or how long he was like that. Zimmerman also testified that he was not told by Chauvin that he was kneeling on George Floyd's neck. We now know from video that Floyd's killing -- of Floyd's killing that Chauvin knelt on Floyd's neck for nine minutes and 29 seconds. Joining me now, Angela Harrelson. She is George Floyd's aunt. She is the author of "Lift Your Voice: How My Nephew George Floyd's Murder Changed the World." We are so happy to have you here. Thank you so much for joining us. How you doing?

ANGELA HARRELSON, AUTHOR: Thank you. I am doing good.

LEMON: You know, it is incredible, Angela, if I may call you that, to think that any police officer would not share key details to their colleagues about what happened at the scene of your nephew's killing. You must be outraged by this testimony.

HARRELSON: Yeah, because it's -- it says coverup. And it was something that they obvious was trying to hide and they didn't want the people that should have known about it to know about it. So, if they didn't say anything, it's because they didn't want people to know.

LEMON: Yeah. You know, this trial has had several prosecution witnesses testify that officers had a duty to intervene and help Floyd per Minneapolis police training, but they didn't do it. Is this trial just as important or even more important than Officer Chauvin's murder trial? Because it demonstrates that this isn't just about one man. It's about a broken policing system. This isn't just about Derek Chauvin. It is about the entire system.

HARRELSON: It is. And this -- this trial is just as important as Derek Chauvin's trial because it is about a broken system, a broken system that evolved -- that started 400 years ago. And it just never got better, you know? It just kept getting restructured into these laws and stuff they would create for themselves to empower policing instead of doing the right thing.

LEMON: Angela, you write in your book, in your new book about George, that people close to him call him Perry.

HARRELSON: Yeah.

LEMON: And you say Perry changed the world. What will we learn about him from this book?

HARRELSON: I think when people read this book, what they will learn is how deeply-rooted racism is, but they also are going to learn that Perry was a human being, that he is a human being. And they will also learn that -- they will see the humility and the humbleness that came across in the book.

The book is very -- I think it's very emotional. It's going to take you on a roller coaster. And it's going to make people think, especially white America.

LEMON: Yeah.

HARRELSON: And so, I wrote this book because I wanted people to see how deep-rooted racism was in our family, and we represent many Black families around the world. And I wrote this book, I talk about things, the racism that happened in late '60s, the '70s, '80s, '90s, until Perry's death because racism did not start with Perry's death. I wanted systemic racism be fought.

LEMON: You -- as you are referencing now, in this book, you also detail your own experiences with racism. You have a chapter called "Why Black People are Out of Patience" and you list a whole lot of reasons.

[23:55:01]

What are they?

HARRELSON: You know, some of the reasons is because we are tired. We are exhausted. We -- we're just tired of -- one of the biggest reasons, we are tired of negotiating equality. And what I mean by that, Don, we have been negotiating for years. And I say that all the time, but I'm not sure people get it.

You know, we couldn't read and write. It was illegal for Black folks to read and write. We had to negotiate. We had to fight for that. We had to fight to vote. And so, that's what I want people to know. That's what I hope people see. That's one of the reasons why we say Black Lives Matter, because in the past, it really -- it really did not ever matter because equality wasn't an option for us.

LEMON: Angela Harrelson, thank you so much. I appreciate you joining us. You be well. You look great and best of luck with this book.

HARRELSON: Thank you. I want to say one thing. My twin sister Mahalia is a big fan of yours, and she told me to tell you hello.

LEMON: Hi, Mahalia. You guys be well, okay, and stay safe.

The book again is called "Lift Your Voice: How My Nephew George Floyd's Murder Changed the World."

And thank you for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

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