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Don Lemon Tonight

President Biden Cautious Of Russia's Action; Ukraine/Russia Tension Affects Everyone; Ex-Officer Testified In Court Over Arbery's Case; Subpoena Issued To Fake Electors; AOC Sees Fading Democracy; Time For U.S. Humility; Russian Skater Cheats But Back In The Ice; Josh Hawley Raising Fund With Fist Bump Picture. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired February 15, 2022 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

LAURA COATES, CNN HOST (on camera): DON LEMON TONIGHT starts right now with the great Don Lemon.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Laura.

COATES: Hello.

LEMON: What do you think -- do you think that we have -- I Don't know if things are changing because we had so much turmoil over this issue, but with the gun manufacturer giving, or at least having to give, being ordered to give that amount of money to the victims, do you think this is a turning point in some way?

COATES: I think it really can be, particularly from the insurance perspective, right? There are so many analogies in my mind to big tobacco, right?

LEMON: Right.

COATES: In the way in which we've talked about big tobacco over the years, the major lobbying that they had, the special interest, the power, but the marketing, the way that they approached it. that way that until it started to hit the purse, you didn't really see fundamental changes.

And people of course still smoke, we still have it, you know, it's very still pervasive. People will still own guns, of course, the second amendment will still be there. But I think once you start to acknowledge in the insurance industry, maybe, the high-risk nature, maybe that's one way to do so.

LEMON: And folks got millions, billions of dollars from the tobacco industry, and they said it would never happen, the tobacco industry is way too strong. And look, I mean, you can't even, you can't smoke in a public building anymore. There's certain places it's frowned upon. yes, it's your right your freedom to do it, but it is restricted in certain places. So maybe we're seeing the same with guns.

COATES: It's funny I was telling my kids every day. There was a time when we'd walk into a restaurant -- remember this? And they would say smoking or non?

LEMON: Yes. Well, --

COATES: My kids would be like, what? What are you talking about? Smoking what?

LEMON: I remember the plane, airplane time. You're younger than me, I remember the smoking section in the back of the plane.

(CROSSTALK)

COATES: I am younger than you.

LEMON: Yes, you are. But I remember the smoking section in the back of the plane. Crazy.

COATES: That sounds horrible. That sounds horrible because that's the episode of mad men at the time.

LEMON: Yes.

COATES: No. No, thank you.

LEMON: That and the liquor cart everywhere. Thank you, Laura. I'll see you tomorrow night.

(CROSSTALK)

COATES: Thank you, Don Lemon.

LEMON: I appreciate it.

So here we go. This is DON LEMON TONIGHT.

And so, we're -- what has been happening in Ukraine? What's going to happen, what's Vladimir Putin going to do? Well, there has been some movement maybe in the right direction, we will see. An invasion, though, of Ukraine remains distinctly possible. The United States is prepared no matter what happens.

That as President Biden's warning, but now we're learning there are even more Russian troops on the border with Ukraine, 150,000. The president is skeptical about Russia's claims that some of its troops are withdrawing after drills and delivering a blunt message to Vladimir Putin that this isn't going to turn out the way you think.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: If Russia attacks Ukraine, it would be a war of choice, or a war without cause or reason. I say these things not to provoke but to speak the truth, because the truth matters. Accountability matters.

If Russia does invade in the days or weeks ahead, the human cost for Ukraine will be immense. And the strategic cost for Russia will also be immense. If Russia attacks Ukraine, it will be met with overwhelming international condemnation. The world will not forget that Russia chose needless death and destruction. Invading Ukraine will prove to be a self-inflicted wound.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): The president speaking directly to the Russian people, saying you are not our enemy, and warning Americans there will be -- that there will be consequences here at home. Energy prices going up, more pain at the pump.

That as homeland security says threats of disinformation campaigns and cyberattacks in the U.S. are increasing in the wake of tensions between Russia and Ukraine.

And there are news tonight from the committee investigating what happened on January 6. They are targeting the fake elector's part of the plot and what may have been the craziest part of all of it. Just choosing so-called alternate electors, even though that's not a thing. And printing up certificates for them to sign.

New subpoenas tonight to two members of the Trump campaign and prominent GOP officials from battleground states. The committee wants to know what they know about the fake electors like Kelli Ward. Kelli Ward is the chairman of the Arizona Republican Party, who the committee says reportedly spoke to the former president and members of his staff and transmitted documents claiming to be an alternate elector. And remember, a whole lot of this happened right out in the open in Arizona. The Republican Party tweeted it out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLI WARD, CHAIR, ARIZONA Republican PARTY: Our president, Donald J. Trump, state of Florida, number of votes 11. For vice president, Michael R. Pence in the state of Indiana, number of votes, 11.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): And then there's Michigan. The committee wants to talk to Laura Cox, a former chairman of the Michigan GOP who they say reportedly witnessed Rudy Giuliani pressuring state lawmakers to just disgrace election results and saying that certifying the results would be, quote, "a criminal act."

[22:04:58]

Now you remember what happened when Michigan fake electors tried to get inside the state capitol while the real electors were already inside doing their job?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN: The governor's office and the Speaker of the House where (Inaudible) the speaker of the Senate. The capitol is closed. To make sure an office to conduct business today, or if you taking part of the Electoral College process. Anybody else is not permitted to come in --

UNKNOWN: They're here to --

(CROSSTALK)

UNKNOWN: They're electors.

UNKNOWN: Yes, the electors are already here. They've been checked in.

(CROSSTALK)

UNKNOWN: They're also electors.

UNKNOWN: The capitol is closed. Al l6 electors have been advise by the governor staff that were going to be here to vote in Electoral College have been checked in, already here.

UNKNOWN: But these are --

(CROSSTALK)

UNKNOWN: But the GOP electors --

UNKNOWN: These are the rest of the electors.

UNKNOWN: I understand, but it's -- the capitol is closed.

UNKNOWN: Captain?

UNKNOWN: Sir?

UNKNOWN: Come forward here.

UNKNOWN: Captain, the electors are also, the GOP electors are also on the governor's certificate.

UNKNOWN: OK. I'm not going to get into a political debate. I'm following orders.

UNKNOWN: It's not a political debate.

UNKNOWN: OK.

UNKNOWN: It's the official sealed document. The certificate has ascertained, has also the GOP electors, they are here, they are trying to do their constitutional duty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): And we've got new developments tonight on two trials that we ever been following from the very beginning. In Minnesota, the first ever testimony from one of the ex-officers in the George Floyd case. Tou Thao. One of three ex-officers charged with violating George Floyd's civil rights taking the stand in his own defense today, testifying he was, quote, generally able to see the other officers handling Floyd and that he saw Chauvin's knee on Floyd's neck.

That, as in Georgia, the prosecution calls its first witnesses in the federal hate crimes trial of Travis McMichael, Gregory McMichael, and William Roddie Bryan, the three men convicted of murdering Ahmaud Arbery. A neighbor is testifying his wife was trying to calm for their baby while, and I quote, "someone was dying on the street in front of our house."

That coming after the prosecutor in opening statements cited social media posts and messages in which Travis McMichael used racial slurs and offensive language saying that he called black people criminals, monkeys, and subhuman savages. The judge ordered the jury to be sequestered.

We've got more on all of this coming up. It is a very busy news evening.

So, I want to get right to CNN's Nic Robertson. He's live for us in Moscow for the very latest, and also with Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman. He's the former director for European affairs at the National Security Council. He's the author of "Here, Right Matters."

We appreciate both of you joining us this evening. There's a lot going on when it comes to this story.

Nic Roberson, I'm going to start with you. President Biden made clear that he wants diplomacy to prevail. But he says the U.S. and allies will respond decisively if Russia invades Ukraine. At times it felt like he was talking directly to Putin. What is the response from there in Moscow?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, it really did, and I think one of the points where you really felt that he was trying to connect with President Putin and be very clear, was this idea of we'll continue talks, we'll continue diplomacy, but we're not going to -- we're not going to change on our core principles. We're not going to roll over to your demands that say Ukraine can become a member of NATO.

Because a couple of hours earlier, President Putin had been saying exactly that. President Putin had been saying yes, I'm willing to negotiate, I'm willing to talk. And there are issues about missile controls and, you know, transparency of where troops are across the borders. But I'm going to speak about my core issues, which is that Ukraine can't join NATO.

So, I think, you know, what President Biden was very clearly addressing President Putin and saying, you know, that maybe what you're saying, but this is what we've said to you all along. We are not changing, we can have those talks, but this is how it's going to be.

LEMON: Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, Putin is saying some troops are returning to their home bases, but there's now 150,000 troops already, and then there are new satellite images that show 10 Russian strike bombers 70 miles off the coast of Ukraine and southern Russia. Sixty attack and transport helicopters have landed at the Crimean airbase within the last few days. Is Putin really serious about diplomacy when you see all of that?

ALEXANDER VINDMAN, FORMER DIRECTOR, EUROPEAN AFFAIRS FOR THE UNITED STATES NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL: That's not clear. Right? The fact is that his rhetoric is always deceitful, or often deceitful. Certainly, in 2014 he completely discounted the fact that Russian forces were involved in the seizure and annexation of Crimea and eastern Ukrainian territory in the Donbas.

So, the fact that he's being deceitful in this case, it's something that we need to seriously consider. That's why we need to go with the old military adage, trust but verify. Although in this case, we don't trust, we'll certainly going to verify over the next several days whether he is going to withdraw forces.

And until we see that, there shouldn't be any relief or any sense of the fact that we're past this confrontation. What I could say about President Biden's speech, I felt a deep sense of pride hearing the president defend our values, defend our national security interests, and frankly lead, as an American president should. Something that we've been missing for quite a few years now.

[22:10:06]

LEMON: You know, we've talked a lot about the Russian troops, but what about the Ukrainians. What kind of defense will they mount in the event that Russia were to attack, and how committed with they be to that defense?

VINDMAN: The Ukrainian forces have completely rebuilt since 2014. At that time, I've interviewed some folks that suggested there are only 6,000 troops at the ready to defend Ukraine's entire border with Russia. Now, they are closer to about 250,000 troops, with another 250,000 in reserves.

They have -- they are much better trained, their equipment is certainly better, but unfortunately, they're just, their military capabilities there is an enormous mismatch with regards to Russia's air power, it will have air dominance almost instantly as soon as the first shots are fired.

It has a very powerful cyber capabilities beforehand, electronic warfare capabilities, long range fires, and these are just going to be very difficult for the Ukrainian forces to contend with. But they do have a strong will to fight, to defend their country, and therefore they are likely to inflict some casualties on Russian forces. Potentially not enough to deter Vladimir Putin's aspirations to conduct a military operation against Ukraine.

LEMON: I ask with a response, so the president in Moscow tonight, Nic, but President Biden had a message for the citizens of Russia as well. Let's listen in and I'll get your response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BIDEN: To the citizens of Russia, you are not our enemy. And I do not

believe you want a bloody, destructive war against Ukraine. A country of people with whom you share such deep ties of family, history, and culture.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): How do you think that resonates with Russians, and Ukrainians?

ROBERTSON: Yes, it's a really important message to try and reach around the Kremlin, and the Kremlin spin machine. Because the way the Kremlin talks about everything that comes from Washington, it puts it in a bad light. It says that, you know, the United States, and the European partners are the ones that are creating the tension. And the ones that are wanting the fight. And they are the ones that are putting Russia into a corner, and squeezing Russia.

So, to reach around that, and speak to the Russian people, it is definitely a way to try to unpick what the Kremlin is doing. The difficulty of doing it here, though, is that President Putin has really squeezed down on and pretty much strangled all the independent media here. A lot of independent journalists have left the country, they don't feel safe. And they can't work here. So, they left.

So, it's very hard to see how President Biden's message can land here. Because on state TV, it will get spun, it will get the same Kremlin spin put on it that says, these are the guys that are building up the hysteria, they're building up the case. They're trying to create a provocation for war.

I think as far as Ukraine is concerned, it will resonate well, it will land well with the people of Ukraine. They are, you know, like their president said, trying to stay, stay calm. And there is this disconnect between how we perceive that threat there are under, and how they perceive the threat they are under.

But this is a message that they would like many Russians to hear as well, that they don't want to go to war with Russians. And I speak to Russians on the street here, and they say, look, you know, these are our brothers in Ukraine, and we don't want to go to war with them.

But getting that message to land here, getting that message from President Biden, clearly to the people here is a very, very hard thing to do. People will get in on the internet, but not that many people.

LEMON: Yes. Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, we are learning that the White House conducted tabletop exercises for -- to prepare for a potential Russian invasion of Ukraine, which include -- which included officials from the State Department, the Pentagon, the joint chief, the energy department, among other agencies. What exactly does that entail?

VINDMAN: It's really quite a sophisticated way of war gaming out exactly how the situation can unfold. Now they might not cover every single contingency, every single parameter. But what you have is you have somebody play the adversary, you have somebody play Russia, you have somebody play Ukraine, and they talk through the different ways that Russia can achieve its military objective, its political objective.

And that way, they kind of uncover the different indicators that attacks are coming, the different kinds of contingencies that U.S. and allies have to plan for with regards to refugee flows, and displaced persons, protection of critical infrastructure in Ukraine with regards to cyber, defensive cyber defensive assistance.

That's really the idea, so you kind of take it from cradle to grave, how Russia would conduct this operation, and illuminate the different features like this so you can plan for it. And the U.S. could start to bring assets to bear.

LEMON: Nic, Lieutenant Colonel Vindman, thank you both. I appreciate it.

[22:15:03]

VINDMAN: Thank you.

LEMON: Russian forces massing on the border with Ukraine, while here at home the January 6th committee digs into the fake elector plot. A lot of talk to about with Congressman Jason Crow. He is here, and he is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): So, President Biden is saying the Vladimir Putin has amassed more than 50,000 troops on the Russia/Ukraine border. The president also saying that there is plenty of room for diplomacy with Russia that could avoid conflict in Europe.

Joining me now is Congressman Jason Crow. He led a congressional delegation in Ukraine last year. Congressman, we're so grateful to have you back to speak about this. You've been here quite often and we thank you for it. Good evening to you.

President Biden says there is still room for diplomacy, but also saying that the U.S. has not verified that Putin has were withdrawn any troops from the border. How should the U.S. calculate its next move with Putin playing with one of our military analysts refer to as a game of cat and mouse.

REP. JASON CROW (D-CO): Hi, Don. I actually think the administration, the president is playing is exactly how they should be playing this right now. And that is using all the tools, all the levers at our disposal to put pressure on Vladimir Putin. Diplomatic, economic, military. Our alliance and partner's structure.

[22:20:03]

But I think the moves by Vladimir Putin in the last two days show, and as we see videos of him meeting with his foreign minister and doing some other things like shuffling some of these units around. I think it shows that he's been taken back some of the aggressive posture of NATO and the United States with our diplomacy, and with our deep classification of our very information.

We've actually been very aggressive in declassifying intelligence and information about Russia what Russia is doing. I don't think Vladimir Putin was expecting that, and now he's having to kind of reshuffle the order and the sequence of his strategy here.

LEMON: You know, there are still not much clarity coming from Congress in terms of a response or a bipartisan passage of sanctions. Is our Congress right now no longer able to put together, to pull together to defend the country's best interests in this crisis? I mean, if Putin were to invade.

CROW: I'm not sure that's true. I think Congress has been very united in a lot of respects that we've pushed back in a very united way on Russia's aggression on our support for Ukraine. On the need for a sanctions package.

Now where we disagree is on the timing of that sanctions package. I intend to believe and I fall into the count that we would sanction after an invasion. And the reason for that is very simple. This is about deterrence. This is about trying to deter Russia from doing something. And those who know who Vladimir Putin is and how he acts knows that being strong and projecting strength is very important to have.

If we sanctioned before an invasion, we lose all of our leverage. There's no reason for him to back down. He actually has to show strength by invading. So, the timing and sequence is very important. That's where some of the disagreement comes and, but other than that, there's been a lot of unity around this which actually has been a little bit of a silver lining.

LEMON: I want to turn now, Congressman, if you will, to the January 6 committee investigation here at home. The committee is issuing more than six subpoenas today targeting Republican officials from various states who may have been involved with the fake elector plot. Is the critical question here, who was directing them? What is the critical question?

CROW: I think the critical question is, what did Donald Trump do, and what did his enablers do? The January 6th committee continues to do exactly what it should be doing, that is issuing subpoenas, taking deposition testimony, reviewing documents.

We see that they are doing what a law enforcement or an investigation of this nature should be doing. And that is, you know, starting at the bottom and working their way up. And seeing how high this goes. And this has been a very methodical, very precise and very deliberate investigation.

LEMON: The committees is also expecting Rudy Giuliani to cooperate with the subpoena, and a source tells CNN that Trump's lawyer is willing to engage on election fraud claims despite him being the source for some of the most outrageous, egregious wrong claims of fraud. How seriously should the committee take what Rudy Giuliani may even say?

CROW: Well, Rudy Giuliani's story is a fascinating and a tragic one. Here you have a man who used to be a federal prosecutor. The senior federal prosecutor that actually help take down the mob in New York City in the 80s and 90s. So, he knows law enforcement, you know, he at least used to respect the rule of law.

What happened to him in the last decade, I don't know. That's anybody's guess. He certainly has turned his back on the rule of law and all the things that he used to stand for. But he understands how this process works, and I hope that he will revert to respecting the investigation, that remains to be seen. We hope that he will cooperate with it but if he doesn't, there are subpoenas and there's ways to compel his testimony.

LEMON: You know, Congressman, what happened on January 6th shows us just how fragile our democracy really is. And your House colleague Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez had this to say about what comes next. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID REMNICK, EDITOR, THE NEW YORKER: You've used the phrase earlier in the midst of this, if we have a democracy 10 years from now. Do you think we won't?

REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): I think there's a very real risk that we will not. I think what we risk is having a government that perhaps postures as a democracy, and may try to pretend that it is but it isn't.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Do you -- do you share the sentiment, are you worried that the U.S. could turn into a foe democracy?

CROW: What I think is that it's our decision whether or not we want to have a democracy, and what type of democracy we want to have. And that's no different from any other 10-year period. You know there's this very famous saying that democracy is only one generation away from extinction.

And the reason for that is because democracy is not self-perpetuating, it doesn't move on its own, it doesn't reinvigorate itself, there's no institution, no document, no process. It just continues to carry it forward.

[22:25:05]

It's actually just people. It's people deciding that they are going to fight for it, its people deciding they're going to uphold their norms, our traditions, our Democratic processes. And we to always make the decision to do that, or not to do it.

So, it's actually our decision whether or not we are going to come out of this stronger or not. And that's why we're fighting to do. It's made the case for a strong democracy, for people to engage and to have a Democratic year of action in 2022 for people to say enough is enough. We're going to do better than this.

LEMON: Well, Congressman, I understand that. But some may say that that is a very high-minded idea of what -- how democracy should operate. With considering the times that we are in now, the assault on democracy, the big lie, January 6, what's happening with voting rights and access to the voting booth all over the country.

A lot of people are worried, you are not worried? I know that's -- listen, it's very -- I respect what you're saying about democracy but it doesn't seem like everyone is in that place and has that sort of idea and frame of mind that you have.

CROW: Well, of course I'm worried, Don. You know, it's my job to be worried. And I'm realistic about the challenges we face. The challenges we face are some of the biggest challenges we face in several generations, certainly in my life at time. Disinformation, misinformation, climate crisis, tribalism, toxicity running through our body politic. The surge of nationalism and white supremacy and racism.

All of that converging, yes, it's tough. It's going to be a hard slog forward, but I'm also someone who believes in the human spirit. I believe in the strength of the American people. I believe that we've encountered extremely hard times before and we've been able to overcome them, and come through them better.

And it's my job to lead, and it's my job to listen to my constituents and to bring people together. And that's what I'm going to try to do, that's why I'm going to continue to fight to do. I'm not going to stop doing that.

LEMON: And you always have a place where you can come speak about it. Thank you very much, Congressman. We appreciate you joining us this evening. We'll see you soon.

CROW: Thank you.

LEMON: A top Obama advisor has some advice for President Biden and the Democrats, but it sounds pretty different from what Obama himself is giving them. That's next.

[22:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): President Biden addressing the nation and the world today from the White House warning about the toll of a Russian invasion of Ukraine. We are told it would have on the region, and here in the U.S.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: If Russia invades, we'd take further steps to reinforce our presence in NATO, reassurance for our allies, and deter further aggression. To be clear, if Russia decides to invade, that would also have consequences here at home. But the American people understand that defending democracy and liberty is never without cost.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Joining me now to discuss, CNN political commentator David Axelrod who has a new opinion piece out in the New York Times. It's titled, Mr. President, it's time for a little humanity.

David, good evening. Thank you for -- humility, excuse me. David, good evening. Before -- before I ask you, a time for little humanity as well. Before I ask you about your new piece, I just want to get your reaction of the president's speech today where he warned Putin against aggression, and laid out what's at stake here. How do you think he did?

DAVID AXELROD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, look, I agree with Jason Crow, I think that he has handled the situation well, and he's surprised Putin. He's pulled the NATO allies together, he has been very, very blunt about what the consequences would be of an invasion.

And I think that he has given Putin things to think about, you know. So, I just don't -- I can't find fault with the way he has handled this. He also did something very important today, Don, he told the country what was happening, but he also told the country that if Putin did invade, that we would respond forcefully with sanctions, and there would be reverberative impacts on this country. And he explained why it was important to do it.

But I'll tell you, and he specifically addressed gas prices, which is a major irritant to the American people right now. They are going to go up if Putin invades, because Russia is a gas producing, is an oil producing country. And in fact, oil prices are already going up just on the threat of trouble in Ukraine.

And so, I thought it was smart of him to explain to people that that might happen, so that they don't associate the higher gas prices with something else. They need to know this is a sacrifice short term the American people are going to have to make in order to preserve a rules-based rule world, where countries just don't go in and grab other countries at their whim.

LEMON: Listen, that is an issue that is happening abroad, and maybe people at home are more concerned about their pocketbooks. But, you know, he is taking on the threat -- the threat abroad today, but he is facing a lot here at home. He is facing inflation.

AXELROD: Yes.

LEMON: A stalled legislative agenda, a pandemic that just won't quit, right? Dismal approval ratings may be because of all of the above that I just said. He is going to give his first state of the union speech in two weeks, and you are warning him to be cautious. Why is that?

[22:35:05]

AXELROD: Well, because of my own experience in the Obama White House. You know, we, we did a lot of things in 2009 to help reduce the brunt of the Great Recession. And yet it hit very hard. Millions of people were suffering, people lost their homes, people lost their jobs, and you know, the compulsion on the part of an officeholder is to say here is what we are doing. And you want credit for what you are doing, and you want people to see progress, even if it's slow and coming.

But you have to link up with where people are in their lives. And when you claim too much, or when you claim, you know, to make lavish claims of progress, I think people are rightfully irritated by that. And you know, we have been through, Don, and you talked about -- you've talked about it many times, this will go down in history as one of the great traumatic periods of all time for America.

This pandemic, you know, we are closing in on a million lives lost, many, many people sick. We all know the story. Everybody is isolated for months, and months, and years. Parents dealing with children who, you know, can't go to school, or when they go to school the rules are shifting.

I mean, and you've seen it in mental health, you know, suicides, drug overdoses, violence in the homes, and violence on the streets. It's been a tough period in this country. Not to mention the economic problems, you know, inflation, supply chain issues, all related to the virus.

We are going through -- we've gone through hell. And Joe Biden, you know, you said it right the first time, the headline should have been, we need a little more humanity. Joe Biden is one of the most empathetic people I know, that's one of his greatest strengths as a politician.

He is also middle-class Joe from Scranton, Pennsylvania. A guy who is famously in touch with the experience of people. And he needs to speak to that experience. And understand why people are frustrated right now, why people are angry. Not to engage in sort of a, Jimmy Carter- esque kind of malaise type speech --

LEMON: Well, let me --

AXELROD: -- but just to say -- just to say we've been through hell, we've made, you know, we're better off than we were a year ago, but we are not where we need to be. But we are going to be. And I promise you, we're going to be, and here's why.

LEMON: OK.

AXELROD: I mean, that's the kind of speech that I think people want to hear.

LEMON: OK, so I want to talk more. Because, listen, you know, you've been there. And more specifically, you say, I mean, I think your blunt -- you write more bluntly in what you wrote in the Times. You write about people being stressed out, burnt out because of the last few years.

AXELROD: Yes. LEMON: I want to quote you here, and you tell Biden, where you say,

"you simply cannot jawbone Americans into believing that things are better than they feel." I mean, you've just said something similar but you are pretty direct there. Explain what you mean, how does he jawbone?

AXELROD: Well, I mean, you know, I don't know if you recall his press conference before the anniversary of his inauguration, but he was very, very energetic in selling all of his achievements and selling the idea of progress. And I just could see people around the country who are struggling still with this virus, who are struggling still with this sense that we don't have this control of things.

We're struggling with violence on the streets, we are struggling with all the permutations of this virus and its aftermath. Saying, what are you talking about? I do not feel that. I mean, you look at the polls, Don, and the right track number for the country, it's like 28 percent. Which means Democrats, Republicans, independents, people just aren't feeling good right now.

And you know, I think that's where you have to start. You have to address that and acknowledge we have been through hell. This has been a really hard siege, and it has gone on for years. And we are taking affirmative steps, we are making progress, but you know, if you are one of the health care workers who had to deal with this, if you are a parent who's had to struggle with your kids schooling for the last two years, you know, if you are any number of other people in this country, it has been a really tough time. And he just needs to link up with that.

And you are not going to persuade them by telling them what you have achieved. You're not going to persuade them by yes, you know what, I actually feel fine. That's not the way it works.

LEMON: Yes. Listen, I would encourage everybody to read it. David Axelrod, it's in the New York Times, Mr. President, it's time for a little humility. And as he says, humanity as well. Thank you, David. I appreciate it.

[22:40:03]

AXELROD: OK. Great to see you, Don.

LEMON: More drugs found, more anger raging. The Russian skater Kamila Valieva is still competing in the Olympics. And she is taking the lead.

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LEMON (on camera): A big new development in the doping scandal at the Winter Olympics involving Russian figure skater Kamila Valieva, it turns out she tested positive for three substances related to treating heart conditions. That according to a document cited by the New York Times. She declared two of them, but the third is a banned substance, yet she was allowed to compete today anyway. And she leads after the women's short program. I want to bring in now CNN's David Culver who is in Beijing for us. He

is following the story. David, thank you. Hello to you.

[22:44:59]

Earlier today, Valieva blamed her positive drug test on a mix up with her grandfather's medication, but now we have learned that three different substances related to threating heart condition were found in her sample. Tell us, what was found, what is going on here?

DAVID CULVER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, Don. Yes. So there's new information coming from the documents reviewed by the Times. And they showed that the 15-year-old tested positive for three substances altogether. Two of them are not considered to be banned, but they all have performance enhancing capabilities.

The U.S. anti-doping chief telling CNN that the amount of drugs found in Valieva's sample is consistent with an intentional use. But remember, we are talking about a young teen. One who, despite stumbling in her first jump had a strong showing Tuesday night here in Beijing. Putting her in the lead of the women's singles skating competition. Though the IOC has said that no medals will be awarded in these programs until the investigation is complete.

Don, it's worth noting not a lot of folks were allowed in the stadium because of COVID measures, but there was loud cheering for that team coming mostly from her fellow Russians who were watching. After her performance, she burst into tears. She held tight to a stuffed animal. She is seeming to feel the heavy pressure, but much of the international criticism is not targeting her.

As officials point out, she did not have the resources, or really the know-how to take these on her own. Instead, most see her as a victim of Russia's repeated state sponsored cheating, Don.

LEMON: Yes. She is a minor. And we have to look at the adults around her and see if here's any culpability there. Thank you, David. I appreciate your reporting.

I want to bring in now Rob Koehler, the former deputy director general of the World Anti-Doping Agency. Rob, thank you so much. You can add a perspective to this that not many people can, so we're glad to have you here.

The three drugs that were found are being called heart conditions. But our contributor, Dr. Jonathan Reiner says that they are not used in contemporary cardiology practice to treat patients with heart disease. Tell us about what was found in her sample, and what would it be used for?

ROB KOEHLER, FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR, WORLD ANTI-DOPING AGENCY: Yes. I mean, you know, the reality is that it doesn't matter if it's one, two, or three substances found in their sample. There is a principle of strict liability that she was taking a substance that is prohibited under the World Anti-Doping code. And you know, we put blame on three organizations for putting this young child into this position. And it's the World Anti-Doping Agency, the International Olympic

Committee, and the Court of Arbitration of Sport. They had the opportunity to suspend Russia from the Olympic Games for states -- state sponsored institutionalized doping, and they refused to do so. They chose politics over principles and Russian interests over athletes' interests.

And as a result, there was no need for cultural change in Russia. We've talked to whistleblowers and current athletes from Russia, and they've told you that you are either part of the system, or you're out of the system. And part of the system may require you to do dope.

And we've seen this over the past seven days with Kamila, who has been found doping, and now instead of removing her from the event, they have put her back on the ice, the competitors don't want her there. The world is looking at her as a doping cheat. And then the IOC decides it's wise to tell everybody that no one is going to get medals for the team or the individual events.

And that is going to be stuck on this young child, the psychological damage they are doing to her is simply unacceptable.

LEMON: And what about this excuse, Rob, that her sample was contaminated by her grandfather's medication? The court document showed an amount that the head of the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency says is not a -- not a trace level.

KOEHLER: Yes. I mean, the World Anti-Doping code is very about it. There is a principle of strict liability. So, you are always responsible for what goes into your system. If it was a mistake, there is potential reduction from a four-year to a two-year sanction. But the ultimate authority relies on the athlete themselves.

LEMON: Yes.

KOEHLER: And shame on these organizations for putting this young child into this position.

LEMON: Yes. As I said you have to look at the adults in her life, right, she is a minor. Let's go back to 2014. Russia participated in the sophisticated state sponsored doping scheme at the Sochi Games. If the International Olympic Committee had dealt with this properly back then, would Russia not feel as emboldened now, as they do to keep violating the rules.

KOEHLER: Absolutely. I mean, time and time again, WADA, the IOC and the Court of Arbitration for Sport has given Russia free pass. So, there is no need for cultural change, so they continue as business as usual. And we put that on those organizations. The organizations are run now with global athletes, and the other independent athlete groups -- we have been calling for reforms for the past seven years for these organizations. To have a 50/50 partnership with athletes, and sport, to ensure this never happens again.

As I said, it's politics over principle and who lose out loses out in the end? It's the athletes. We are seeing this again at the Beijing games.

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LEMON: Rob, I appreciate you coming on, we'll have you back. You are so knowledgeable on these issues. Thank you so much.

KOEHLER: Thanks for having me, Don.

LEMON: So, he raises his fist on January 6th. Now Congressman Josh Hawley is, take this, selling mugs showing the infamous picture.

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LEMON (on camera): So, take this. Republican Senator Josh Hawley is taking the image of his fist bump to pro-Trump demonstrators outside the capitol hours before the January 6th insurrection. Slapping it on campaign merch. For $20, supporters can purchase the show me strong white coffee mug.

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Hawley's home state of Missouri is show known as the show me state, so for everyone at home a reminder of what Hawley showed us that day. He was one of the 147 Republicans who object to the 2020 election results, even though there is zero proof of fraud.

And remember, when Republican, fellow Republican Mitt Romney stared daggers right at Hawley during his objection speech. I would say it's disappointing for Senator Hawley to now glorify his actions and objections that day with a souvenir mug. But it is more than that. It's calculated.

The senator is digging in on the big lie to maintain his political support. He can use the mug money to keep his campaign going. And he just might need it. Right after January 6 the top donor to Hawley called him out as a political opportunist, and called for his censure.

Hawley's one-time mentor, former GOP Senator John Danforth said, supporting him, and I quote here, "was the worst mistake of my life."

Next, President Biden sending a message to Vladimir Putin today, de- escalate. We're live in Ukraine next.

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