Return to Transcripts main page
Don Lemon Tonight
Judge Wants The Trump Family To Testify; U.S. Warns Of Russia's Possible Plot; Fate Not Looking Good For Trump; U.S. And Allies Always Ready Against Russia; Bad Karma For Cheater Athlete; Racism A Disease Not Dying In The World. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired February 17, 2022 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LAURA COATES, CNN HOST (on camera): Either you can compete at the highest levels with the integrity its required or you do what is expected. Now we don't know all the answers yet. What we do know is just imagine what it was like, as she is sitting there and having lost, fallen multiple times, to have the rule out the carpet for the awards ceremony, because they know, as long as she doesn't place, they can have a medal ceremony?
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Yes.
COATES: And I saw something that -
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: A return to normal.
COATES: Yes, a return to normal.
LEMON: Yes.
COATES: And I heard that there was actually the, I think, Adele was playing in the background and rolling we could have had it all was playing. And her coach apparently said to her, they were translating in Russia, something along the lines of, explain this to me.
LEMON: Yes.
COATES: Explain this to me. And of course, that is the looming question for everyone. Right? Explain this all to mee, Don.
LEMON: Explain. And look, I think it's easily explainable. She had a lot of people pushing her, and again, 15 years old. There was some talk as you know about raising the age a little bit, right, for majority. Because they thought 15 might be a little bit too young.
But as Christine Brennan told me last night it doesn't matter, referencing what you said about Russia, and the issues that they had with doping, right, and performance enhancing drugs, and they were actually on probation, whatever the technical term for it is. It wouldn't matter if it was 15, or 25, or 16, or 26, as long as you
had a country that was behind you, and a system that was encouraging you to break the rules, it didn't matter the age. It would still be there.
COATES: Well, Don.
LEMON: Yes.
COATES: So well said.
LEMON: Yes.
COATES: And of course, what else would it be. It's coming from Don Lemon, of DON LEMON TONIGHT.
LEMON: Laura, man, the times that we're in. I mean, you couldn't --
COATES: Yes.
LEMON: You couldn't write that there is this turmoil happening, all of this turmoil with Russia and Ukraine, and then you have the Olympics as a backdrop, right, with this Russian skater. It's is -- and China, It is really unbelievable what's happening.
COATES: It really. There is some mastermind, or a Hollywood plot, all afoot at once.
LEMON: Yes.
COATES: Either way, I can't wait to hear your show as always.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: It's the year of the water tiger, so get ready. More tumults coming. Yes. Boy.
COATES: Look, we're all philosophical, everyone, enjoy.
LEMON: See you, Laura.
COATES: The year of the water tiger. Goodbye.
LEMON: I'll see you later. Have a good night.
This is DON LEMON TONIGHT. Thank you so much for joining us.
And yes, we have all of the developing news. We are going to - - we are going to get to Ukraine, we're going to get to Russia, we're going to get to the skating, but we have big news happening in this country.
It is a huge smack down for the Trump family. In a New York courtroom today, all right? Or a court today. A judge ordering former president and his son, Don Jr., his daughter Ivanka, all of them to testify under oath. It is a family affair. Testify under oath in the New York attorney general's civil investigation of their business practices. An attorney for the former president says that he of course, going to
appeal. The judge throwing out every one of their arguments, throwing them out, calling them audacious, preposterous, comparing them to George Orwell, and remember this, alternative facts.
As we just said, you cannot write this. Going on to say that they have the right to refuse to answer questions they claim would incriminate them, after all, Eric Trump took the fifth more than 500 times. Five hundred times. Think about that. That's a lot of times. The thing is, I don't know if I've said five of fifth 500 times in my entire life, and I'm old.
He says you have the absolute right to take the fifth, but in a civil case, the jury can assume that there is an incriminating answer. And that doesn't look good. Just ask one Donald J Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Have you seen what's going on in front of Congress? Fifth amendment, fifth amendment, fifth amendment. Horrible. Horrible.
The mob takes the fifth. If you're innocent, why are you taking the fifth amendment?
When you have your staff taking the fifth amendment, taking the fifth. So, they are not prosecuted. I think it's disgraceful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): So here we are. Today's ruling coming just days after the accounting firm of the former president and his businesses used for years unceremoniously dump them, saying it could no longer vouch for the financial statements it has compiled over the past decade.
So today's ruling is bad news on top of bad news, on top of bad news for the Trump family. But let's remember, the former president is what you'd have to call an expert at depositions. He once estimated he is given more than 100 of them. Remember the time in a deposition that he couldn't remember whether he had said that he had the world's greatest memory? Couldn't remember?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Did I say that I have a great memory, or one of the best in the world?
UNKNOWN: One of the best in the world. That's what the reporter quoted you as saying.
TRUMP: Well, I mean, I don't remember that, OK. As good as my memory is, I don't know that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:05:05]
LEMON (on camera): Again. We have a lot more to come on that in just a moment. Meanwhile, nobody seems to believe that Vladimir Putin has any intention of backing down, as thousands of Russian troops are amassed on the border with Ukraine.
Western officials say that almost half of Russia's troops around Ukraine are now within 30 miles of the border. President Joe Biden seems convinced an attack will come within days.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNKNOWN: Mr. President, how high is the threat of a Russian invasion right now?
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: It's very high.
UNKNOWN: Why?
BIDEN: Because they have not -- they have not moved any of these troops out, they've moved more troops in. Number one. And number two, we have reason to believe that they are engaged in a false flag operation to have an excuse to go in. Every indication we have is they are prepared to go in to Ukraine, and attack Ukraine.
UNKNOWN: Do you think he is going to go through with it, sir?
UNKNOWN: This is going to happen now?
BIDEN: Yes. My sense is it will happen within the next several days.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): We saw this moment today with the secretary of state making an unscheduled stop at the U.N. today and telling the security council Russia is manufacturing false claims to justify going to war. And warning and shocking detail, what those claims might be.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: It could be a fabricated so- called terrorist bombing inside Russia. The invented discovery of a masquerade, a staged drone strike against civilians, or a fake, even a real attack using chemical weapons. Russia may describe this event as ethnic cleansing, or genocide, making a mockery of a concept that we in this chamber do not take lightly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Getting ahead of the problem there, a fabricated bombing, and invented masquerade, a staged drone strike, chemical weapons. Like I said nobody seems to believe Vladimir Putin has any intention of backing down.
The entire administration delivering dire warnings to Russia, which couldn't be more different than the disgraceful performance from the former president, cozying up to Putin, standing next to him in Helsinki, and taking his word over our own intelligence community, saying that he didn't see any reason to believe Russia was behind the interference in our 2016 election.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: My people came to me, Dan Coats came to me and some others, they said they think it's Russia. I have President Putin, he just said it's not Russia. I will say this, I don't see any reason why it would be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): Talk about opposite administrations. One paying attention, following the directives, or at least the recommendations from our intelligence community. The other, standing up with Vladimir Putin discarding the intelligence community. Interesting.
There is also news tonight on the federal hate crimes trial of three men convicted of murdering Ahmaud Arbery. The judge saying a juror was asking about counseling after hearing disturbing testimony about texts and social media messages from the two of the men full of racist insults, those messages, by the way. And it is disturbing.
But I've said it before, we live in an America where every day there are people who feel completely free to speak hate. To text it to each other, to make jokes loaded with it. To laugh about it. And they don't even think it's wrong, they had no idea that it's even wrong. They think it's OK. They think they're right. They think it's the status quo, and that's how everybody else should think.
That's really -- that's really the problem. It's the kind of hate that is hard to listen to in a courtroom in 2022. But it's there. Just the same.
A lot to get to this evening. I want to turn now to CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Elie Honig, and Tim O'Brien, senior columnist for Bloomberg opinion, he is also the author of "Trump Nation."
Gentlemen, good evening. Mr. O'Brien, I'm going to start with you. You say that it is -- it's often -- it often looks like Trump is ensnared but you believe that this time is really -- it really could be an existential crisis. Explain why you think it's different this time?
TIMOTHY O'BRIEN, OPINION COLUMNIST, BLOOMBERG: Well, it's different this time, Don, because he has to deeply resourced sophisticated prosecutors breathing down his neck. He has juggled these kinds of accusations in the past from journalists, but journalists don't have subpoena power, journalists don't have the power of the law behind them.
And he's -- he's in a corner now. We don't know, you know, if he'll stay there, we don't know if he'll end up, you know, deeply penalized in a civil case. And possibly going to jail in a criminal case.
[22:10:04]
I don't see that as an outcome, but I don't see also that he's just going to escape through this as he has through every other legal snafu he's encountered in the past. Because it's just a very different set of circumstances this time.
And his organization has been under pressure, he has people inside his own company who could potentially flip against him. His in-house accountant has been indicted. His outside accountants appeared to be cooperating with investigators.
And now there's -- there's, you know, the likelihood I think at some point that they are going to testify under oath. Whether he says anything useful in that deposition is another matter. But it's -- it is a really intense set of circumstances facing him right now.
LEMON: Elie, I want you to respond to what Tim had to say, because I mean, he puts together, it seems like the walls are closing in. And then I want to ask you another question about the Trump children. But what do you think? He says it's different this time, do you think he is --
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Major threat to the Trump organization, major threat to the business, major threat to the financial well-being of Donald Trump and his family. I think it's very likely we see a civil lawsuit by the attorney general, Letitia James. If that happens that could wipe out the Trump org.
I think the question of criminal charges is a very different matter.
LEMON: Right.
HONIG: I agree with Tim, I don't think that's particularly likely based on what we know right now, but of course we don't know everything.
LEMON: Let's talk about the -- beyond that, not only a blow for Trump, but his children as well. The judge picking apart the arguments from Trump's lawyers. It looks like they're going to be focused on the answers for what the judge called copious evidence of possible financial fraud. Talk to me about that.
HONIG: Well, you just said it. The single most important word in this eight-page ruling or so by the judge today. Copious.
LEMON: Copious.
HONIG: Copious. That means a lot. I looked it up. The judge said copious evidence of potential fraud here. I mean, that's coming from a judge, that's a big deal. And the judge said because the attorney general has shown me this level, this quality of evidence, I'm going to uphold the subpoenas.
Generally speaking, prosecutors and investigators have very broad authority to issue subpoenas, and that's why we saw such a decisive ruling from the judge. LEMON: Well, this is a -- we often -- we often talk about Trump
double speak, he'll say something in one and then completely negate it in the next. Because part of the arguments that Trump lawyers are making is the former president denies knowledge of his finances. But then he goes on and puts out a long statement bragging about his businesses and net worth. Is that a legal problem for him, or could it become a legal problem for him?
HONIG: It is, he just couldn't control himself, and this is why lawyers always tell their clients, just shut up. Just say nothing. Lawyers say he didn't know. Trump couldn't help himself, he issued one of those memorandums that he writes, I guess in lieu of Twitter. He said I knew everything. That's going to be a problem.
LEMON: Yes. Tim, you have been in a deposition with Trump before. We just saw a clip of how he acts during a legal deposition. Trump and his children will all be under oath. And they'll have to be on the same page. How do you see this going?
O'BRIEN: Well, you know, that deposition, Don, was involved litigating the same fact pattern that's in play right now. Did he inflate the value of his assets when it was useful for him to do so, did he deflate it when it was useful for him to do so? And how responsible was he for all of those things?
And -- and the same accountants who just, you know, essentially fire Donald Trump were accountants we'd deposed over a decade ago. Again, the only difference was that I was a journalist involved in that case, I wasn't a public prosecutor.
During our deposition with Trump, he deposed him for two days, in December of 2007, two 8-hour sessions. And he was caught out lying more than 30 times in the course of those two depositions.
LEMON: That's it?
O'BRIEN: We had bank documents, we had his tax returns, we simply push things across the table to him that he couldn't refute under oath. And our evidence I don't think was nearly as voluminous as what's Letitia James' office has and what the Manhattan D.A.'s office has.
And as Elie pointed out, the evidence is so voluminous that the judge essentially said to the Trumps, dispense with this idea that this is a political prosecution. I think the Trumps had a lot to point to, I think Letitia James has been judicious at times, but be that as it may, the judge said the evidence I'm seeing is incontrovertible.
There is something here and we are going to take a close look at it. And now with of all of them, not just Donald Trump, but Donald Trump Jr., and Ivanka Trump, and eric, all being forced to testify under oath.
If they get to a point where they are not going to simply do what Eric did and take the fifth, hundreds of times, they are going to make very sure that their stories lined up, they're going to have make very sure that there is no evidence on the table that contradicts any lies or misstatements they make.
[22:15:08]
And that's a very, very tricky situation. On top of it, Donald Trump is about the worst client you could put into a deposition. I have to believe his lawyers are pulling their hair out. On Monday, they're saying Donald Trump has no knowledge in a specific way about any of his own finances, which of course has no credibility, that statement. But they've said that.
And then a day later, he is on social media like Yosemite Sam shooting himself on his own feet.
LEMON: Yes.
O'BRIEN: Yes. And blowing up his own legal defense.
LEMON: Well, as Elie said, you know, he said lawyers say to their clients, shut up, don't talk. Elie, that's pretty hard for Donald Trump.
HONIG: Not the easiest client.
LEMON: Thank you both. I appreciate it.
We have to get to the developing news overseas.
O'BRIEN: Thanks, Don.
LEMON: Thank you, Tim.
Russian troops surrounding Ukraine on three sides, dire warnings from President Biden on down. What are U.S. military leaders doing to prepare? I'm going to ask a former U.S. defense secretary. That is next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLINKEN: Our information indicates clearly that these forces including ground troops, aircrafts, ships, are preparing to launch an attack against Ukraine in the coming days.
[22:20:00]
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): President Biden warning tonight that every indication his administration is seeing shows Russia is prepared to attack Ukraine within the next few days. That they have moved troops in, and not out.
And the secretary of state, Antony Blinken addressing the U.N. Security Council saying Russia will likely gin up a so-called false flag operation as an excuse to launch an invasion.
There is a lot to discuss with the former Defense Secretary Willian Cohen. Good evening to you, sir. We are so grateful to have you here.
The president, President Joe Biden will speak with the Trans-Atlantic leaders on a call tomorrow about Russia's military buildup along Ukraine's border. He's warned today a Russian invasion could happen in the next several days. The defense secretary, Lloyd Austin says that the Russians are flying in more combat and support aircraft.
What are -- what are top U.S. and NATO military leaders doing right now to prepare given Russia's very aggressive posture now.
WILLIAM COHEN, FORMER U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: Well, they are prepared to, I hope, reinforce the forces that we have in NATO itself. This is one thing that President Biden has indicated he wants to put more people, more troops in the areas most vulnerable to a potential Russian attack. And I think they will be talking about ways in which they can beef up their defensive capabilities, understanding that Putin wants to break up NATO and the E.U. basically, to drive a wedge between the United States and the European countries.
So, we have to do our best to reinforce the notion that we will hang together, fight together, in terms of protecting our interests and then hopefully continue to provide information to the Ukrainians to help them in their defense.
LEMON: One of the most important moments, if not, for me today, secretary, was, and I'm sure you had heard the secretary of state Blinken today at the U.N. --
COHEN: Yes.
LEMON: -- saying that Russia is planning to fabricate a justification for war. He points to things like a fake bombing or a mass -- a fake mass grave, or even a real chemical weapons attack. We have noted before how this administration has released a lot of intel. Are you surprised by this level of specificity?
COHEN: Not really. I'm happy to have it out there because you are really informing the world. This is what the Russians do. On a personal level, they've used nerve agents, poisons, prisons, anything to keep dissidents in check and put them in jail or kill them.
And so, this is a tactic that the Russians use. So, the notion that they would use chemical agents is not surprising or nerve agents, not surprising. They would use disinformation, denial, disruption, all of that is part of their game plan.
So, the more you can illuminate that and prepare the world for this is what they do, perhaps when they try to, again, come out with denial and obfuscation and casting the blame elsewhere, the world will know that they are lying.
LEMON: So, interesting then. So do you believe by laying it all out there, I thought it was very smart, I want to know what you think. Is there hope that it thwarts Putin in some way? And it has to get their attention, don't you think? COHEN: Well, sure it gets their tension. I think that Putin is
counting on frankly looking at how he is weighing the odds. I think he is prepared to go in and conclude that the United States and the NATO countries will fold over the years before he will. That this is an opportunity for him to take Ukraine back under its wing.
Really, the irony here is that people, the Ukrainians simply want to live free. And what he is saying, I'm going to free you from freedom by killing you by the thousands. This is his answer to freedom. I'm going to bring you back under the Russian roof. And that's the Russian jail.
LEMON: Well, we're going to be talking about this a lot, Secretary Cohen. And we appreciate having you here. Thank you very much.
COHEN: Good to be with you.
LEMON: Racism on full display in the hate crimes trial of three men convicted of murdering Ahmaud Arbery. The content so disturbing a juror asking the judge to provide counseling.
Plus, an officer at the scene of George Floyd's death admitting that he could've performed CPR. All this, next.
[22:25:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): A special agent with the Georgia -- Georgia Bureau Investigations taking the stand today in the federal hate crime trial, hate crimes, I should say, in the three men convicted of murdering Ahmaud Arbery. His testimony revealing new information about Travis McMichael's truck, it turns out he had a confederate flag vanity license plate and the decal of a blue confederate cross on a tool box in the bed of his truck.
That after another agent reveal racist text messages and social media posts from two of the defendants.
Joining me now CNN legal analyst Areva Martin. She is the author of "Awakening" Ladies, Leadership and the Lies We Have Been Told."
And we're glad to have you this evening. Good evening, Areva.
AREVA MARTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hi, Don.
LEMON: To remind everyone of this casual racism that these men used in their lives. Here is one of the texts -- one of the texts revealed during the trial.
It says, a friend text Travis McMichael, quote, "this Cracker Barrel up here is full of some other kinds of people." McMichael replies, quote, "need to change the name from Cracker Barrel to n-word bucket." Now today, we're learning of the confederate symbols decorating his truck. But all this evidence does it add up to a hate crime.
[22:30:05]
MARTIN: Well, Don, the evidence has been so horrific, it's been so offensive. We know that the jury, at least one, if not many jurors, have asked the judge about counseling. About emotional and psychological counseling because they've had to sit through the testimony of these prosecution witnesses and hear just the animus that these defendants had towards African Americans.
And yes, the prosecution has a heavy burden. They have to prove that this racial animus was the reason that they chased and killed Ahmaud Arbery. But I think when jurors hear the kind of evidence that's being presented, it's not going to be a big leap for them to conclude that it was their hatred for African Americans that caused them to engage in this conduct that resulted in the death of Ahmaud Arbery. I don't think the prosecution is going to have a difficult time in making this case.
LEMON: Interesting. Like you said, one of the jurors is asking the judge in the court if the judge is going to provide counseling services today. They will.
If you are the defense -- if you are the defense attorney in this case, what are you making of this counseling request? That cannot be good if you have, and I want to hear from you though, if you have a member of the jury saying this was so disturbing, I need counseling.
MARTIN: It's not a good sign at all, Don. And you couple that with the defense attorneys even in their opening statements they had to admit that their clients made these statements. But they then, you know, told the juries, but disregard these statements, even though they made them you have to keep in context that these kinds statements weren't made in reference to Ahmaud Arbery, and that somehow, they can make the statements but yet, engage in conduct that's not motivated by racial animus.
I think the defendants know it's a stretch. You know, people's minds just don't work that way. Jurors' minds don't work that way. They go into the deliberation room and they take their common sense. And if you have that kind of hatred for black people and you see a black man running in the neighborhood you think black people are criminals, you think they're subhuman. Naturally your instinct would be to do what these individuals did.
So, I believe the defense is worried. But you have to remember, Don, these two, at least the father and son team they tried to enter into a plea negotiation where they would avoid a public trial. But the judge rejected that plea negotiation, so they are not at this trial because they wanted to be here. They were hoping to avoid having this kind of evidence presented. But they were left with no choice once the judge rejected their plea agreement.
LEMON: Yes. Well, look, when you -- you sparked something because they're admitting in these text messages that they are authorizing people. They say This Cracker Barrel and here is full of some other kinds of people. You know, I got the chance to speak with some of the jurors who heard
the murder trial for Derek Chauvin. The murder of George Floyd. Listen to what they told me about how the trial impacted them.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: This is very personal question. Are you seeing anyone?
LISA CHRISTENSEN, JUROR, I was seeing somebody, yes.
LEMON: To talk about it.
CHRISTENSEN: Yes.
LEMON: Did it help.
CHRISTENSEN: Yes. And also, the court did offer us counseling if need be. So.
LEMON: And you needed?
CHRISTENSEN: Yes.
TOSSA EDORTH, JUROR: I can see that video playing in my mind right now while talking about this.
LEMON: So, the video plays over and over in your mind.
EDORTH: Yes.
LEMON: Do you think you'll be okay?
NICHOLE WILLIAMS, JUROR: I think so, but I --
LEMON: Are you worried?
WILLIAMS: I wake up with nightmares a lot. It's something that I will never forget no matter how much therapy I've already done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON (on camera): You know. Areva you say that following these high- profile trials involving the killing of black men it has a compounding effect.
MARTIN: Absolutely, Don. there is a phenomenon called racial battle fatigue. Where African Americans in particular after they have been eyewitnesses, and really, with our eyes we watch these videos and we watch them over and over and over again. We are subjected to the kind of violence that black men face at the hands of police and, in this case, vigilantes. It has a psychological damming effect on us.
Many people report not being able to sleep, not being able to eat, not being able to concentrate and having, you know, being in a constant state of depression and sadness over what they are witnessing. And some psychologists, Don, tell folks to lay off the news. Don't watch the stories don't watch the videos don't consume this kind of content. Because it is so painful and it is so offensive.
You talked about the Derek Chauvin case. Don. Remember Dylan rue who killed the people at the Mother Emanuel church in South Carolina while they were in bible class. At that trial the survivors who didn't die from that massacre had to testify. And I remember the jurors also needed counseling after listening to those victims recount what happened.
[22:34:55]
And then having to watch Dylan Roof laugh as he confessed to the murders of those African Americans in that church. So, there are many instances where jurors are in these high-profile trials they are subjected to this kind of offensive testimony and evidence. And it does have -- it takes a toll on them emotionally.
LEMON: Let's talk about the current federal civil rights trial of the murder of George Floyd. The former Minneapolis police officer J. Alexander Kueng testifying today, Areva, he is admitting that he was in the position to perform CPR on Floyd when he lost consciousness but he didn't. Damning?
MARTIN: Absolutely. That's the crux of the prosecution's case, is that these officers failed to intervene and that they failed to provide medical care. And the excuse that we're hearing from these defendants that are taking the witness stand is somehow they believed it was Derek Chauvin's responsibility.
He was the senior officer there. So, they are trying to point the finger at Derek Chauvin, and they're also, as we talked about last night, pointing the finger at the Minneapolis Police Department. Saying that their training was subpar.
I think expect the jurors to believe that somehow these police officers should be relieved of their responsibility for doing what all of us saw with our very eyes was the common-sense thing to do which was to save George Floyd's life. After all they are policeman. Protect and serve.
And we didn't see them protecting anyone other than themselves and trying to create a narrative that would relieve them of responsibility. I don't think their testimony, Don, any of the defendants that have testified today, I don't think it's done any good in terms of helping them avoid liability.
We saw what happened with Derek Chauvin. I don't have a crystal ball, I can't predict with certainty, but I don't think this trial, this federal civil rights trial is going well for these defendants.
LEMON: Yes. But you've been there, you know the courtroom, so thank you very much.
MARTIN: I've been there and we've been here before.
LEMON: Yes. MARTIN: And we -- we know what the outcome was in Derek Chauvin and we're hoping that the outcome is the same with respect to these three individuals that they are held accountable for standing by watching, not taking any action to save the life of George Floyd.
And we know, Don, in the prosecution case one of the witnesses testified that George Floyd could've been saved if medical care had been provided to him. He could've lived. He did not have to die on the streets in Minneapolis on that night.
LEMON: Yes. Thank you, Areva. I appreciate it.
The through line in both of these stories they were caught on camera. And this week we're seeing more racist incidents causing outrage. Again, because they were all caught on camera. Cornell West is here. He's going to weigh in right after this.
[22:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): Shocking video showing a black teen pinned to the ground and handcuffed by a police officer after a fight at the mall while the white teen involve was not have handcuffed at all. Plus, hateful and racist messages revealed in testimony at the federal hate crimes trial of three men convicted of murdering Ahmaud Arbery. What does this tell us about race in America?
So, joining me now civil rights leader, professor Cornel West. There he is, professor. I love having these conversations.
CORNEL WEST, PROFESSOR OF PUBLIC PHILOSOPHY, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: How are you doing, my brother?
LEMON: I'm doing -- I'm doing very well. I'm glad you're here. Let's talk about this. You heard Areva and I just talked about the developments in the trials over the killings of George Floyd and Ahmaud Arbery.
We have been reporting on this mall fight between two teens where police restrained and then handcuffed and arrested the black teen but the white teen was just told to sit on the couch. Was not taken away or restraint or, you know, taken to confinement or what have you.
These are all very different cases, but we know it happened because it was all caught on video. That's the through line here. Right?
WEST: Absolutely. Absolutely. But the important thing for me to keep in mind here, brother, that, yes, white supremacist behavior is evil. We know it's everywhere. But I have been blessed to be at the Edward Waters University under the magnificent leadership of A. Zachary Faison who is the son who is the president of then sister Donna Oliver who is provost.
And I say that because we've got to talk about forces of good in the face of evil. We don't want to be parasitic on evil, we don't want to be just reactive. We want creative responses that have a vision that can highlight our strength in the face of what those police did to our brother Kye.
So, we think about Amir (ph), you think Trayvon, you think about George Floyd. You think also about all of the strength and the love and the power and the vision that come out of their traditions, our traditions. Any people who are concerned about being forces of good in the face of that evil.
We don't want the evil to be so censured, that we are just some kind of parasites on it. I refuse that paradigm that framework. You see I -- I come from a great people where we do the framing. We do the defining of how we proceed. And then we're not surprised by this behavior of the police, vis-a-vis, the black brother --
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But let me ask you this.
WEST: -- in New Jersey. But do you see the point I'm making?
LEMON: I totally get the point you're making. And what, you know, having framed it that way we may not see these things in order to be able to frame it or react to it or figure out how do we make it better if there wasn't videotape.
WEST: That's right.
LEMON: If you think about all these instances --
WEST: That's true.
LEMON: -- of racial bias when we don't see that aren't caught on tape, do we have a true understanding of just how bad it may be? So that we can counteract that with the good that you say.
WEST: Well, that's a wonderful question. I think we should assume that it is worse. I mean, that's the whole history of Edward Waters University and how the university spelled in Morehouse Tuskegee.
[22:45:03]
We know how deep white supremacy cut, we're not surprised when it raises its ugly head over and over and over again. What we're concentrating on is what kind of counter veiling force we can be so that we hold up our moral excellence and our spiritual greatness. And I'm talking about the biblical conception of greatness. He or she is the greatest among you will be in service to the least of these, the vulnerable, the oppressed, the persecuted.
Because if we void up, if we're fortified, if we are really ready for serious spiritual and moral engagement against evil, then we are going to spend a whole lot of time refortifying ourselves in order to deal with what's happening at that mall. So that when brother -- when brother Kye comes home he said to himself, I'm still a human being and I have a dignity that those policemen can never take away from me. LEMON: Well, I tried to tell --
WEST: That's what --
LEMON: I tried to tell him that after we did that last night that he should -- that he should have a dignity, that they shouldn't be able to take it -- they should not take from him.
WEST: Absolutely.
LEMON: So, did Benjamin Crump. We talked about that after the break. But here's the thing. Not to -- I'm not excusing what they did at all.
WEST: That's right.
LEMON: But aren't these people and even, you know, the Ahmaud Arbery, the hate crime trial, aren't these people, in many ways, in a big way, caught up or co-opted in a system even now that is refusing to even teach people about race. To talk about race. To call people who try to bring light to it race baiting. Do you understand what I'm saying? Who don't want to confront the issue even to bring it to a positive place? isn't that -- aren't they caught up by that they're victims of that system?
WEST: Yes. In some sense, you know, we are all wrestling with it. But keep in mind, the attempt to do away with critical race theory means what? 1619 Project number one the New York Times bestseller week after week after week. I mean, so we can use the various kinds of attempt to be narrow to continually broaden, deepen universalize our vision and our efforts.
It's just we should never ever get so discouraged that we think all we do is just react to all of these vicious acts. No. We are taking off with vision, with power, with courage, with compassion regardless. Now if we end, if it ends up that America just over and it dissolves and it disintegrated because the hatred and the greed completely took over. We can say, we went down swinging. We held on with integrity. That's all you can do, brother.
LEMON: Professor, you are the best. Thank you. We'll see you soon. We'll have another conversation like this very soon. And I'll try to figure out --
(CROSSTALK)
WEST: Absolutely, my brother. Stay strong, my brother.
LEMON: -- how do we -- how do we -- how do we create something positive out of this at least learning something? Thank you, professor. I appreciate it.
The Russian skater at the center of a doping scandal flaming out at her last Olympic performance. We'll talk about it next.
[22:50:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON (on camera): A shocking turn at the Olympics. The Russian figure skater at the center of a doping scandal after testing positive for a banned substance finishing in fourth place after falling multiple times in her last appearance at Beijing. Fifteen-year-old Kamila Valieva had been praised by many as possibly one of the best women's figure skaters ever.
Let's discuss now. CNN plus host Cari Champion is here. Cari, hi. So good to see you. I wish we are talking about a better story. I feel bad for the young lady. But there is a turmoil going on around the Olympics and the story.
A shocking meltdown for Valieva leaving the ice in tears. There was a tremendous amount of pressure on her after her positive test and the fact that she was still allowed to compete. What's your reaction to all of this?
CARI CHAMPION, CNN PLUS HOST: I agree with you. First of all, good to be here, my friend. And second off, I do agree with you. Watching it, it was very sad. Watching her have that breakdown in front of the world was horrible. I do understand where we have to sympathize with her situation. And I do understand where we have to sympathize with her situation.
I hear the calls for saying she's just a little girl, she's a victim of the system. Sadly though, I can't go that far, Don. I do have empathy for what is happening. But there is something here that is clearly wrong and it's also fishy.
We deal with the ROC, Russia is clearly (Inaudible). We've let them come in play and do whatever they have wanted to do in terms of these Olympic Games. And at the end of the day, to me, it's the IOC. There is no governing body that's really in charge.
I believe, much like the Rooney Rule in football that this governing body needs to be dissipated, it needs to be reworked. Because they continue to allow what this corruption happening at these games that are supposed to be pure. They are supposed to be amateur in some ways, and more -- and more importantly, they're supposed to represent a true and fair competition. And that's not here.
LEMON: Yes. Two other Russian skaters by the way finished with gold and silver both share the same coach as Valieva. Are they under increased scrutiny too since Valieva tested positive?
CHAMPION: Absolutely. Absolutely. The entire program is. And I don't understand why there is not more outrage. In fact, while watching today I'm thinking to myself, it's a very slippery slope if you are calling the figure skating. Right? You want to be fair. You want to talk about what's happening but you cannot deny the controversy.
[22:55:01]
And then you cannot deny that two of her teammates actually meddled. And in my mind, I'm sitting at home and I'm thinking, when do we decide enough is enough? The Winter Olympics, for so many people, is their only opportunity, these athletes, is their only opportunity to make money, to get sponsorships, to live. Perhaps to start a new future if in fact they do well.
And then you have this situation where you know the Russians are dirty. I mean, listen, the Russian doping committee, I heard the other day watching your show, it's the wild, wild west. They are -- they are not taking control of what is happening.
And unfortunately, the coaching, it's a system that is well in place and it's been in place for years. And we are not acknowledging it and we won't just say this is what it is, we have to stop it.
LEMON: I need to see Cari up on the screen by herself because, Cari, if I was in Los Angeles I would be heading right over because that looks cozy, you got flowers, you've got a fireplace. I mean, you are living your best life.
CHAMPION: I -- yes.
LEMON: Yes.
CHAMPION: Yes, you're welcome. Please join me.
LEMON: And maybe you would serenade me with a guitar over left shoulder. Cari Champion, everyone.
CHAMPION: Well, you know -- Don, this is a serious subject. Come on in. It's warm, too. We got the heat on. It will be great.
LEMON: You're the best, Cari.
CHAMPION: Have a glass of wine.
LEMON: I'm having a little fun with you. Thanks, Cari. I'll see you soon. Be well.
A judge says that Trump has got to talk about his business under oath and he won't be alone. His kids have to do it, too. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
