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Don Lemon Tonight

Judge Rules Trump And Children Must Testify In NY Investigation Of Trump Organization; Biden Warns Russian Attack On Ukraine Is Imminent; McCarthy Backs Top Cheney Challenger; Coronavirus Pandemic: BA.2 Omicron Subvariant; Outrage At Police Handcuffing Black Teen In Mall Fight While White Teen Is Told To Sit On Couch. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired February 17, 2022 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST (on camera): The Trumps must testify. A judge ruling the former president, Don, Jr., and Ivanka must sit for depositions in a New York State investigation of the Trump Organization business practices. They say they will appeal.

An urgent warning from President Joe Biden that Russia is likely to attack Ukraine within days.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Every indication we have is they are prepared to go into Ukraine, attack Ukraine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): A live report from inside Ukraine just ahead.

And growing outrage at how two police officers broke up a fight at a mall between two teenage boys, one Black and one white, pinning the Black teen to the floor and handcuffing him, while the white teen is told to sit on the couch. An investigation is now underway.

I want to bring in, William Cohan. He is the founding partner of Puck News. Also, former federal prosecutor Kim Wehle to weigh in on what is happening with the former president.

William, we have seen -- good evening to both of you. We have seen Donald Trump dodge accountability over and over again. But tonight, a judge says that he and his children, Ivanka, Don, Jr, must answer questions under oath. How do you see this playing out because we know Trump thinks that he is above the law?

WILLIAM COHAN, FOUNDING PARTNER, PUCK NEWS: Don, this is obviously a civil suit. It is still relatively early in this case. I don't even think the attorney general of the state of New York has brought charges yet. She is still doing her investigation, these depositions and the information that she is seeking as part of her investigation. Look, this is an important day for America, an important day for American justice, because, as Letitia James said herself, no one will be permitted to stand in the way of the pursuit of justice no matter how powerful, and that is what is an important message for people to understand tonight. Donald Trump and his children are going to have to play by the rules of the American justice system.

LEMON: Kim, the judge says that he reviewed thousands of documents as part of this investigation and the AG uncovered copious evidence of possible financial fraud. That is a quote there. But the Trumps' lawyers say that they will appeal. So, what happens next?

KIM WEHLE, PROFESSOR OF LAW AT UNIVERSITY OF BALTIMORE SCHOOL OF LAW, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, they will appeal. As I told my students, losers get to appeal, and they lost. That doesn't mean that there is any real merit to an appeal. The judge's opinion is brief but extremely succinctly and well-written.

It essentially ticks through Donald Trump and his children's arguments like spaghetti thrown against a wall, which is what they read like. He argued things like, well, there might be, you know, criminal liability, so I shouldn't have to sit for a civil deposition. The judge said, listen, your other son, Eric, invoked the Fifth Amendment 500 times during his testimony. You can do that like any other -- any other witness.

I think he can appeal, but ultimately, he is going to have to testify, and then he will presumably, potentially, I should say, invoke the Fifth, which he has shown contempt for when it came to some of his political foes when he was president.

LEMON (on camera): Let's assume that what happens, happens. As you said, he takes the Fifth -- that he appeals, and he has to take the Fifth. But I just want a reminder, Kim, for our audience, remind our audience what the former president says about that move. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: The mob takes the Fifth. If you're innocent, why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?

When you have your staff taking the Fifth Amendment, taking the Fifth so they're not prosecuted, when you have the man that set up the illegal server taking the Fifth, I think it's disgraceful.

Have you seen what is going on in front of Congress? Fifth Amendment, Fifth Amendment, Fifth Amendment. Horrible. Horrible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Horrible and disgraceful. I wonder if he thinks it is 500 times that -- since his son, Eric, did it 500 times at least in his deposition.

[23:04:58] Hypocrisy aside, though, Kim, if Trump takes the Fifth, can't that be used against him in a civil case or in civil cases?

WEHLE: Right, it can be used. That is, you can tell the jury that he took the Fifth and allow the jury to basically take whatever it wants, make whatever conclusions, draw conclusions from that, that is that he is hiding something. And, you know, it's all of our constitutional right. It's perfectly fine.

But this is -- just so viewers understand, a civil case, all that can happen from a civil case is money damages or an injunction. So, it would be paying back, say, New York State, for not paying enough taxes, for example, or being forced to do something or not to do something. That's really different from the criminal context which, of course, can put someone in jail.

So, one of their primary arguments was, well, the New York or the Manhattan D.A. is at the same time looking into criminal allegations and this isn't fair that we'd have to talk, speak in a civil deposition beforehand.

This is where the judge, as you indicated, said, listen, this is a legitimate investigation, there is nothing in the law that says you can't have parallel things going against you, and the fact that you might have criminal liability doesn't somehow insulate you from other ways that you could be held accountable.

So, honestly, Don, when you see this and you see that he made similar arguments when he was president about his accounting firm, Mazars, he those even with a conservative court, it does feel like this man, Donald Trump, seems to think this -- just the rules that apply to everybody else don't apply to him. And now that he is a private citizen, it is just -- it is not flying. It didn't fly with him as president, at least with judges, and is really not going to fly now that he is a private citizen.

LEMON: Yes, interesting, because Kevin McCarthy always likes to say, rules for thee but not for me, and Donald Trump is the epitome of that.

William, what about Ivanka and Don, Jr.? What kind of questions do you think investigators will ask? Do you expect Trump's kids to tell the truth?

COHAN: Well, obviously, Eric, you know, pleaded the Fifth Amendment 500 times. You know, Don, Jr. and Ivanka basically, supposedly, I mean, especially Don, Jr., running the Trump Organization while his father was president and Ivanka was at one time, I guess, a -- quote- unquote -- "consultant" to the Trump Organization, obviously a big part of the organization, they know exactly what's going on, what has gone on.

And so, they are in a position to provide a lot of information to the New York State attorney general if they choose to answer questions and tell the truth. That remains a big if despite the, you know, comments from the former president about people taking the Fifth. I think the important point that Kim made as well was about the Mazars, the accounting firm, which -- this has not been a very good week for the Trumps because -- and the Trump Organization because that accounting firm basically disowned 10 years' worth of accounting reports that it had made on the Trump Organization, which could potentially open up the Trump Organization to additional lawsuits from lenders who theoretically relied on those accounting statements to make loans to the Trump Organization.

So, this is not a good week because of those two things. You combine that with the Manhattan district attorney's ongoing criminal investigation and that grand jury has been meeting since mid-last year, something has to give there and soon. You know, things are tightening around Trump Tower and they should be nervous. As I say, this is an important day and a very good day for American justice system.

LEMON: William, Kim, thank you both. See you soon. Be well.

I want to go live now to Ukraine, where CNN international correspondent Michael Holmes is live for us tonight. So, former CIA counterterrorism official Philip Mudd is here as well. Good evening to both of you, gentlemen.

Michael, I want to go to you. You're out there reporting. President Biden says that there could be an attack within days. Defense Secretary Austin says Russia is flying in more combat and support aircraft and even stocking up their blood supplies. How high are tensions on the ground at this hour, sir?

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Don. Look, I think the rhetoric and the claim and counterclaim, it does worry Ukrainians. I've been out and about a lot and I'm struck by how stoic they are. I mean, they have this horrible situation hanging over their heads, but they are getting on with life, while at the same time they are preparing for what could come.

A lot of people just don't believe President Putin will really go as far as actually invading, but many are worry that -- their lives are impacted regardless. The economy is hurting. The stress is growing. They're used to pressure from Russia.

You know, I think we said yesterday, just put yourself in their shoes, wondering from one day to the next when or whether a giant military is just going to storm over the border and into their town.

[23:10:02]

LEMON (on camera): Phil, Secretary of State Tony Blinken addressed the U.N. Security Council today, laying out very specific scenarios that Putin could use to justify a war. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF STATE: It could be a fabricated so-called terrorist bombing inside Russia, the invented discovery of the mass grave, a staged drone strike against civilians, or a fake, even a real attack using chemical weapons. Russia may describe this event as ethnic cleansing or a genocide, making a mockery of the concept that we in this chamber do not take lightly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): A staged drone fight, invented mass graves? I mean, Phil, what did you think when you heard that? Why is he being so specific with the public?

PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST, FORMER CIA COUNTERTERRORISM OFFICIAL: I hesitate to make World War II comparisons, but that is exactly what happened with World War II Germany, making fake claims about being attacked. I looked at this and said, look, if disinformation is going to be successful, as a former intel guy, Don, typically, you have to start with a baseline of truth. Some kernel, in fact, and then build the lies on that little bit of fact.

I think what the White House is doing and what Secretary Blinken was doing today, over the course of weeks and months, is to take out the prospect that anybody could believe the Russians. So, I think the chance that disinformation works, that the Russians' claim work, is low except for countries that already support Putin.

And the final thing I would say is the important players here are the Europeans. The Americans are going to need the Europeans if the Russians move in. And I can't believe anybody in Europe believes what the Russians are saying.

LEMON: Phil, are any Russian people hearing any of the information from the west? Are they just being fed Putin's disinformation?

MUDD: One of the most interesting aspects of this is the use of the Russian security services, the domestic security service for disinformation. In the United States, that is illegal.

So, if you take that fact into account, you have the Kremlin speaking, people listening to Putin, his approval ratings are high, too disinformation is being put out to the Russian people by Russian services, and the fact that western services are closed off in Russia, you can't get access easily to Russian information, you can see why Russian people believe that Putin is right and why they believe the west is wrong, and the United States is the aggressor here. The information waves are owned by the government.

LEMON: Michael, there was reporting earlier, Clarissa Ward showing a kindergarten in Eastern Ukraine hit by shelling. Talk to us about that. What does it tell us about this? What should the viewers know?

HOLMES: Yeah, as you say, this is in that area in the east of the country where Russian-backed separatists have been fighting the Ukrainian government for eight years now.

The thing about this shell landing on a kindergarten is quite apart from the potential horrible outcome it could have had. It plays to -- as Phil was saying, it plays to the west's claim that Russia could provoke an incident that gives them an excuse to invade either fully or in that Donbas are, the contested area.

The U.S. believes that is part of the Russian playbook, either create an event that sparks an invasion or provoke a response from Ukraine that they can use like attacking a kindergarten. All very worrying, Don, and it does test the restraint of the Ukrainian forces. I mean, one incident could be the spark that ignites all of this.

LEMON: Thank you, gentlemen. I appreciate it.

MUDD: Thanks.

LEMON: Meanwhile, Kevin McCarthy at it again. Seems like he is hoping to get on the good side of the former president, throwing Liz Cheney under the bus by endorsing her primary challenger.

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[23:15:00]

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LEMON: So, Kevin McCarthy is officially throwing his support behind Harriet Hageman, the Trump-backed candidate challenging Liz Cheney in Wyoming. It is very rare to see an endorsement like this from leadership. But after intense pressure from the Trump wing of the GOP conference, it looks like McCarthy gave in.

So, joining me now is Stuart Stevens. He is the former chief strategist for the Mitt Romney presidential campaign and senior advisor to the Lincoln Project. Good evening to you, sir.

So, this is almost unheard of. A leader of the House of Republicans endorsing a challenger to the sitting -- to a sitting member of Congress. Not just any sitting member of Congress, Liz Cheney. I mean, is this going to come back to haunt him?

STUART STEVENS, SENIOR ADVISER TO THE LINCOLN PROJECT, FORMER CHIEF STRATEGIST OF ROMNEY PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: No, I don't think it is. This is a desperate attempt by McCarthy to save his seat if they win the House next -- his leadership position if they win the House. McCarthy is feeding the alligator, hoping the alligator will eat him last. It'll never work.

You know, there is a certain clarity in this moment. It is sort of like no pretense anymore. We can't pretend that the Republican Party is about conservativism. I mean, there are a few members of the House that have a more conservative record than Liz Cheney. She is a Cheney. It is just about an autocratic movement that is oriented around a strong man and if you don't recognize that and don't submit to it, then you'll be purged. It is straight out of the Soviet Union.

LEMON (on camera): Just about a year ago, Liz Cheney did survive a push to remove her as conference chair for voting to impeach Donald Trump. McCarthy defended her at the time. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): Liz Cheney, our conference chair, we just got a resounding shot in the arm that we got a team --

[23:20:00]

It is just an example this Republican Party is a very big tent. Everyone is invited in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Today, though, Liz Cheney is out of leadership, censured by the RNC, and McCarthy is backing her primary opponent. Here is what -- this is what he said on Fox just tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCARTHY: Wyoming deserves to have a representative who will deliver the accountability against this Biden administration, not a representative that they have today that works closer with Nancy Pelosi, going after Republicans instead of stopping these radical Democrats for what they're doing to this country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): What a difference a year makes. What do you think of McCarthy? I mean, what is it? Does he stand for anything or just whatever he thinks is going to make him speaker?

STEVENS: Look, I mean, history is replete with sort of, you know, faceless men like McCarthy that just kind of rise up through the system and are desperate to hold on to power. The 1930s Germany was full of them. This is just sort of a picture-perfect moment of what has happened to the Republican Party.

It is no longer a classic political party in the way that we thought of American political parties for one represented an ideology that would be more center right, one represented one center left, and you could argue about which had the best policies given any particular issue. That is akk out the window now.

It's just about power. That's it. What they don't like about Liz Cheney is, I mean, think about it, she is trying to be part of a process to get to the bottom of the most successful terrorist attack on the United States Capitol since 1812, and that's a crime in the Republican Party because it might implicate Republicans. It will implicate Republicans. They were the ones who did it.

So, she has to be vanished. It's -- look, I mean, this happens. It is just very predictable. We just have to quit being surprised when the Republican Party acts like an autocratic movement and not a political party because that's what it is now.

LEMON: Yeah, perhaps, we should be surprised when they start to act like with some normalcy and put forth some policy and, you know, yeah. Thank you, Stuart. I appreciate you joining us. Thanks a lot.

STEVENS: Thank you.

LEMON: State after state, city after city relaxing COVID restrictions, but with concerns about a new contagious subvariant. Is this the right time to do that?

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[23:25:00]

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LEMON: Tonight, a new study showing an Omicron subvariant known as BA.2 spreads faster and may cause more severe disease than Omicron itself. Let's get some guidance on this from CNN medical analyst Dr. Jonathan Reiner. Good evening, doctor. Tell me it isn't so. Tell me it isn't so.

JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: I'm not sure there is really much data to suggest that it is more severe than Omicron. I think what the data does show is that it's probably clearly more transmissible which is --

LEMON: Forty percent more contagious, they say.

REINER: Yeah.

LEMON: It has been detected in 74 countries, 47 U.S. states. It may also cause more severe symptoms than the older variants, but you said there is no evidence of that part and so on.

REINER: Yeah, and, you know, we're seeing the virus in places like the United Kingdom and South Africa and Denmark. And when you look at a real-world data from those countries where they've seen a lot of BA.2, it does not look like the virus produces more severe illness or more ICU admissions and things like that.

One thing to remember is that variants are produced all the time. This variant is rising in the United States. Most recent data shows that it is about five or six percent of the isolates in this country, but it is not rising nearly as quickly as Omicron did in January. So, we'll have to see whether it can outcompete Omicron.

There is some data that suggests that it might be a bit more immune evasive than Omicron but probably not a lot more. So, I'm not sure this is going to change the trajectory of the current surge in the United States, which is dropping rapidly.

LEMON: So, I'm reading this -- here it is. The researchers in Japan say that BA.2 should no longer be considered a type of Omicron, that it has more than 40 gene changes and it should be looked at as its own variant. Significant?

REINER: No. Again, it is a -- you can call it a cousin or you can say it is a distant relative. I am not sure that really matters. It is a mutated virus. This virus is going to continue to mutate, which is the reason why we need to do what we know how to do, which is to vaccinate people.

The more people who are vaccinated, the less virus there is in human beings, the less opportunity there is for this virus to mutate, and the sooner we can really put this behind us. But there's still a lot of Omicron circulating in the United States, about 140,000 cases per day.

[23:29:59]

And although things are a lot better, there's still a lot of viruses around.

LEMON: Doctor, thank you very much.

REINER: My pleasure.

LEMON: Now, I want to bring in Washington Governor Jay Inslee, who announced just today that he is ending his state's indoor mask mandate, including in schools. He is going to do it in March 21st. Governor, good evening. Thank you so much for joining. I appreciate it.

GOV. JAY INSLEE (D-WA): You bet. You bet.

LEMON: Your state's indoor mask mandate is one of the few still left in the country. You are ending it on the 21st, as I said, of this March in places like schools, bars, restaurants, and grocery stores. That is still over a month away. Tell us why that is the right time to do it.

INSLEE: Well, it is based on the data and the science, and we have been very successful for the last two years in Washington saving literally tens of thousands of lives by making decisions that have based on data and science. And that has been successful because we have done common sense things like having masks where they work, like increasing vaccination rates. In fact, if you compare our death rate to Mississippi, we've saved 17,000 lives in our state. We want to continue that course.

So, what we have done is, we basically set a goal of what level of hospitalization could our hospitals accommodate and still not be overrun, and when do we project that we'll get those infection rates and hospitalizations down to that level. Basically, it is about March 21st. So, we made a decision based on the health and the science rather than just, you know, political winds or ideology.

And that type of decision, I think, has saved thousands of lives in our state. So, I feel really good about it that we are in this position to make the next step forward. I am very excited about this progress we've made.

LEMON: Listen, we've spent a lot of time together over the last couple years, the run for president and then, because of this, the first confirmed COVID case in the United States was in your state. Washington was hit very hard early on. It is a very different situation now. How much of today's announcement is about treating this virus now like an endemic, learning to live with it rather than a pandemic?

INSLEE: Well, I think that tone or the tenor of how to think of it is accurate. We now understand it is not going to be zero. It is going to be in our society for who knows, many years to come, certainly. And so, thinking about it in those terms makes sense. And also, it makes sense because we now have so many more tools to fight it.

Look, we now have a lifesaving vaccine. It is almost universally available and hopefully for the four and five-year-old shortly. We know that the masks work. We now have some additional monoclonal antibodies and treatments. So, we have so many more tools than we had early.

That, together with the very significant change in this variant -- this variant, to some degree, it's horrible. We lost a thousand people last month in our state. But it has chased Delta out of town and it is less fatal. So, if you get vaccinated now and it can prevent you from getting a serious disease, that is just a wonderful thing.

We still don't have everybody vaccinated. I just cry about that fact. We lost an ex-trooper, we lot a state senator, and people not vaccinated are still at risk. So, we are not done with this effort. That effort will continue after March 21st, and we will keep our masks in hospitals and in our prisons and places where people are in congregate settings. So, we are certainly not done after March 21st. There is more work to do.

LEMON: All right. Well, let me jump in here because you are talking about Omicron, but we are monitoring this Omicron subvariant, BA.2, which may cause more severe disease.

INSLEE: Right.

LEMON: How do you plan on handling future variants, you know, should they pop up? You may have to go back to that mask mandate. What are you going to do?

INSLEE: Well, we'll make decisions based on science and health. We will use those same value systems and scientific systems in making a decision, and we will monitor this every single day to stay on top of it.

It was kind of 20 minutes after we announced this today, I walked in and saw a report from Japan that had some concerning information about this BA.2 virus.

So, we're just going to look at it every single day and evaluate it. And yes, there is a possibility that, you know, we'll have to reinstitute some measures. But right now, with the existing predictions we have, we should be able and we will plan on reducing our mask mandate on the 21st.

LEMON: Governor, thank you for your time. Best of luck.

INSLEE: Thank you. We'll use it. You, too. Be well. LEMON (on camera): They're launching an investigation after police cuffed a Black teen for getting into a fight at a mall, but not the white teen he was fighting with.

[23:34:57]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EBONE, SON WAS HANDCUFFED AFTER FIGHT IN MALL: I hate to say this, but if it wasn't for race, then what is it? What made them tackle my son, not the other kid?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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LEMON: Outrage growing tonight over the viral video of the fight at a New Jersey mall between two teenage boys, one Black and one white, and how police officers breaking up the fight. They pinned the Black teen to the floor, handcuffing him, while the white teen is directed to sit on a nearby couch.

[23:40:02]

New Jersey's governor calling the situation deeply disturbing. A lot to discuss.

CNN legal analyst Joey Jackson is here, as well as Captain Ron Johnson, who retired from the Missouri State Highway Patrol. Gentlemen, thanks for joining.

Captain, I'm going to start with you. The officers had just arrived on the scene of a fight. Did they make a predetermined judgment about who was at fault here based solely on skin? What do you think? What is going on? What happened?

RON JOHNSON, FORMER INCIDENT COMMANDER IN FERGUSON, MISSOURI: You know, it does appear that they had already made their judgment who was the victim and who was the aggressor. It was obvious, you know, when you look at the video, the white male was actually on top of the Black male.

But when the officers approached, their efforts were extremely directed toward the young Black male on the ground. You see them push the white male back to the couch and in a gentle way. Then they're both having their attention, handcuffing, putting their knee on the back of the Black male. And the white male gets up off the couch. He is standing up and he is talking. And they turned their attention totally away from him.

And so, it is obvious that there is a perception, there is bias, you can see it in the entire interaction.

LEMON (on camera): As you were speaking there, I mean, you were narrating exactly as it was happening, and it interesting to see that they just completely ignored the white kid. He could have run away. Who knows what he could have done?

But, listen, Joey, I spoke last night to Z'Kye and his mother, Ebone. I want you to listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EBONE: I hate to say this, but if it wasn't for race, then what is it? What made them tackle my son and not the other kid? What made them be so aggressive with my son and not the other kid? Why is the other kid sitting down looking at my son be humiliated and put into cuffs? It just doesn't make sense.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): I won't say it's all police officers. We know that. But how ingrained is it in some officers or in the system, the perception that automatically the threat, you know, to treat, I should say, teenagers differently before they even know what is going on based on what appears one would think in this case skin color? What do you think, Joey?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yeah, Don. Great question. Good to be with you and the captain. The bottom line is I think it even transcends teenagers. It has a lot to do with the African American male in general.

You have to ask yourself, what engenders such feelings of dehumanization, such feelings of less than as if, you know, the Black kids in communities don't have parents at home that love them, that have pride in them, that are inspiring them, that are pushing them, that are really trying to make their kids be the best to have part of the dream like everyone else?

And so, what does it say about the tactics, what does it say about the training, what does it say about the culture, what does it say about how officers are out there policing?

To your point, Don, there are police officers out there who are doing great work, who are protecting lives and preserving communities, and I don't want to cast aspersions on all police officers, but what I do want to say is that this represents a problem.

What was it about this scenario that allowed police officers to think that it was okay that we're going to get the teen that was in (INAUDIBLE) dark due, going to tackle and deal with him, but the other one, no concern, we can just ignore him? It is troubling.

So, we got to fix it, whether that is more diversity in policing, whether that is more sensitivity, whether it is more training. Whatever it is, it has to be addressed because, as you know, Don, and I'll finish here, it oftentimes leads to much more egregious conduct, and then I'm talking to you about a mother who is crying because they don't have their kid. So, we got to get a grapple on this and we need to do better, period.

LEMON: To your point, Joey, Captain Johnson, let me ask you, this is terrible for Z'Kye, now his mom, as Joey was saying, but it could have been so much worse.

JOHNSON: You know, I think -- you know, his mother talked about having that talk. We've talked before, you and I, about African American parents having the talk to their son, and now their daughters. We have to do better.

I think Joey is right, we have a lot of check the box training, and we have to begin to have some real training that has real learning mechanisms involved to create change.

It is important that we're inclusive in police departments and policemen are doing a great job in a lot of places, but this here, these incidents, it is what divides and creates the untrust in communities.

LEMON: Joey, this was two teenagers in the middle of a mall with tons of other kids looking on, cameras recording. Teenagers get in fights. When I was a teenager, I got into fights. It happens. You have to wonder, though, what would have happened if that wasn't the case, if those cameras weren't there.

JACKSON: You do, Don.

[23:44:57]

I think that you can ask yourself the following question about policing in general. Again, not indicting officers who are out there working hard. They have families that they want to come home to, too. But when you see things that are happening now being recorded, people have social media, people are inclined to use their phones, everyone is a photographer, it just highlights the point.

And what does it say to the other teens? What example does it set? What message are we giving everyone else about, you know, when it is the Black kid that did something wrong but no one else is? What does it say about them thinking (INAUDIBLE) officers about the values of Black families, right, who are working hard, who are striving, who are doing such great things, who are going to be future leaders?

But I think we really send the wrong and improper message about things like this when you just attack the Black teenager and you just leave the other person alone. And so, we got a long way to go, Don. I'm glad it was highlighted because we should and need to be talking about this. And I think officers need to be cognizant about what they are doing and about what the underpinnings of their actions, the message that it sends.

LEMON: Yeah. Look, people think -- I'm sure there are people out there making excuses saying, oh, this happened once, it is isolated. It doesn't. This is indicative of what goes on a lot here.

Quicky, captain, I hate to give a short trip, but really, this is really about training with officers, which you know a lot about, bias training needed, that needs to be a priority with law enforcement all over the nation?

JOHNSON: It really does and it can't be just check the box training. We go around the country and we train officers and we talk to officers. We have real conversations and not just check the box questions. We talk about experiences. We talk about the things we're talking about right now. The things that people are feeling, young people are feeling, and African Americans in general in our country.

So, we have to do better in police departments. Leaders have to make sure that they're giving the ample training to the men and women that they lead.

LEMON: What should happen, quickly again, to those two officers, you believe?

(CROSSTALK)

JOHNSON: Go ahead, Joey.

LEMON: No, it's for you, captain. Go ahead.

JOHNSON: They have to go through some intense training.

LEMON: Okay.

JOHNSON: I think there has to be something that sends a message here that we cannot do that and that this is wrong, this behavior is wrong.

LEMON: All right. Thank you both. I appreciate it. We'll be right back.

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LEMON (on camera): Lyndon B. Johnson entered the White House during a national crisis. Despite that, he used the office to enact a historic expansion of civil rights and social support programs. His accomplishments, however, are often overshadowed by his escalation of one of America's most controversial wars.

Now, the new CNN Original Series, "LBJ: Triumph and Tragedy," provides a captivating look at one of the most consequential presidents in U.S. history. Here is a preview.

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UNKNOWN: His style was 180 degrees from John Kennedy. Kennedy was polished, Harvard. LBJ was hill country, cowboy hat, boots.

UNKNOWN: Washington at that time was disproportionately influenced by the Ivy League elites, and LBJ was not from the Ivy League nor was he ever elite.

LYNDON B. JOHNSON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (voice-over): If those sons of bitches think you're weak, they're like a country dog. You stand still, they're screw you to death. If you run, they'll eat your ass out.

UNKNOWN: You never had to guess where Lyndon Johnson was coming from. He was coming from that growing up in the hill country of Texas.

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LEMON (on camera): Now, that is my kind of television or streaming or whatever. So, joining me now is Melody Barnes, former domestic policy adviser for President Barack Obama. She is currently the executive director of UVA's Karsh Institute of Democracy. She appears in this new series on LBJ. Melody, thank you.

This looks fantastic. Let's talk about this. At the beginning of the current president's term, Joe Biden, you heard a lot about how Biden had the opportunity to be the next LBJ, pass the sweeping domestic agenda. How do you think that is playing out so far?

MELODY BARNES, FORMER DOMESTIC POLICY ADVISER TO PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, you're right. First of all, it is great to be with you. But you're absolutely right, we heard a lot about that. In fact, you often hear references to LBJ with about any president when it comes to passing legislation because LBJ was masterful at doing it.

LBJ lost Medicare the first go round because he didn't have the votes and Democrats didn't want to follow him. After the '64 election, he gets 61 percent of the popular vote. He wins every state except for five in the deep south and Barry Goldwater's home state of Arizona. He's got a land slide victory and Democrats are eager to follow behind him along with members of the Republican Party. That is the way he gets a lot done. Joe Biden never had that.

LEMON: LBJ's Voting Rights Act has been rolled back in recent years both because of actions from the Supreme Court and the lack of action from Congress. What would Johnson make of the state of voting rights now in 2022, Melody?

BARNES: I think -- well, I think he would be deeply, deeply disturbed because his ultimate goal is being attacked. I mean, what LBJ said to Hubert Humphrey back in 1964 was, and this is his language, if we get Black people the vote, we get Black people the power.

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And he understood this as a question of power and that the hurdles and the impediments to African Americans and other people of color being able to exercise their rights as citizens were being threatened.

We know at this point, at the end of last year, 19 states have passed, you know, over 30 different restrictions to voting rights, 400 some bills have been filed to restrict voting right. I think he would be disturbed. I think he would be saddened by where we are today given what he thought and hoped he had accomplished in 1965.

LEMON: Melody, it is always a pleasure to have you. I can't wait to watch this and see you in this documentary. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Be sure to tune in to all-new CNN Original Series, "LBJ: Triumph and Tragedy," premiering with back-to-back episodes, Sunday, 9:00 p.m., only on CNN. Again, our thanks to Melody Barnes.

And thank you for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

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