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Don Lemon Tonight

The State Of Race, Policing, And Crime In The United States; Biden Convinced Putin Will Invade Ukraine; Archives Says It Found Classified Docs Trump Took To Mar-A-Lago; Bad Legal Week For The Former President. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired February 18, 2022 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

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DON LEMON, CNN HOST (on camera): Ahead this hour: Crime and justice in the United States, a spike in violent crime across the country, questions about policing and disturbing police tactics, and the impact of race on all of these. It is quickly becoming one of the major domestic political issues.

And stories we have been following closely here on DON LEMON TONIGHT could not make this anymore clear. Take the sentencing today of ex- Minneapolis Police Officer Kim Potter, convicted of manslaughter in the death of Daunte Wright, shedding tears while apologizing to Wright's family, but sentenced to only two years in prison, significantly less than the seven years prosecutors requested. The judge appearing to sympathize with Potter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REGINA CHU, JUDGE, HENNEPIN COUNTY, MINNESOTA: Officer Potter made a mistake that ended tragically. She never intended to hurt anyone. Her conduct cries out for a sentence significantly below the guidelines.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Daunte Wright's family and his mother outraged.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KATE BRYANT, MOTHER OF DAUNTE WRIGHT: This isn't okay. This is the problem with our justice system today. White women tears Trump's -- Trump's justice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): And what about that viral video? Two teens, one Black and one white, fighting in a New Jersey mall. But two police officers breaking it up, pinning the Black teen to the floor and handcuffing him while directing the white teen to sit on a couch. Again, sparking outrage.

And then there's the federal hate crime trial of three white men, Georgia men, convicted of murdering Black jogger Ahmaud Arbery. Another day of witness testimony, another day of hearing, people recount the racist things that these men have said. Today, a former Coast Guard colleague of Travis McMichael, a white woman testifying he called her a racist slur for dating a Black man. And there's more, closing arguments are set for Monday.

So, let's get to the conversation now starting with the CNN legal analyst Loni Coombs and Peniel Joseph. He is a professor of public affairs and history at the University of Texas. Thank you both for joining this evening. I appreciate it.

Loni, I'm going to start with you. Let's start with Kim Potter's sentencing. Two years for the shooting of Daunte Wright. This was a case where then-Officer Potter that that she was using her taser, but drew her actual gun. The sentence is well below the guideline and Daunte Wright's brother called it a slap in the face. Is this sentencing too light?

LONI COOMBS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Don, I think it is. I do. Look, let's look at the positives. They did charge Kim Potter with a manslaughter charge, which in the past police officers could get away with not being charged, especially when they're pleading accident.

She was saying taser, taser, she was crying, and there was a lot of sympathy for her. So, she was charged and the jury came back and found her guilty of first and second-degree manslaughter. We have 12 people agreeing that she should be held responsible.

But when you come to the judge and the sentencing, the maximum is 15 years, that's what the family wanted, the prosecutors were asking for the presumptive range right in the middle about seven plus a few months, seven years plus a few months, and the defense was asking for probation.

The problem was the judge was so emotional in that sentencing and it was hard to watch because the family had just talked about their pain and agony of losing their son. And the judge then praised the killer of their son and asked them to even empathize with her. And then she gave these factors for deviating so down to just two years.

And the reasons themselves didn't make sense. The fact that she didn't intend to kill, she wasn't charged with intending to kill, she was charged with manslaughter. So, she shouldn't have gotten a pass for that.

So, I understand the family's outrage and frustration with it. I was frustrated with the downward departure so far and the way that the judge handled the sentencing. But I agree with the attorney general, we have to accept it and look for the positives that the case is moving forward, but the sentencing wasn't really the carriage of justice that the family was hoping for, because we're talking about a life here, right?

When the mother said in the sentencing, what is my son's life worth? And then she's told it's worth two years. That's really hard for any mother to accept. [23:05:00]

LEMON: Peniel, you know, we have talked a lot about the conviction of Derek Chauvin for the murder of George Floyd. Three other ex-officers are on trial now for their roles in Floyd's death. And now we have the Potter sentence. Are we seeing the accountability that these injustices deserve?

PENIEL JOSEPH, PROFESSOR OF HISTORY AT UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS, AUTHOR: No, I don't believe we're seeing the accountability. I think that the positive here is that they were tried -- you know, these cases have been tried in the first place. I agree with what's been previously said. That was increasingly rare before 2020.

But I think the wider context here, Don, is that we need less punishment and more investment. So, when we think about this notion of abolishing prisons and abolishing punishment, I think the compassion that the judge displayed -- if the entire criminal justice system could display that kind of radical empathy and compassion, we would all be better off. That means that the Congress would have passed the George Floyd Justice and Policing Act.

And even this law and order and this sort of crime wave that we're talking about nationally, that, too, often evokes the 1960s law and order campaign of Richard Nixon or the drug war by Reagan and Clinton in the '80s and '90s, where we're talking about being punitive and punishing and putting people away.

We need less punishment and more justice and more resources for people nationally. I think that is what the lesson of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor has been. I think the reason why the family is so outraged is that this is sort of this kind of compartmentalized compassion where we only show compassion towards whites who have been convicted of these crimes even if they're unintentional, right?

But we're not showing compassion for Breonna Taylor's family. We are not showing compassion for Daunte Wright's family. We're not showing compassion for all these victims. And so, I think until we can create a system that has radical compassion and empathy for all people, right, we're going to be stuck in this cycle of recrimination and violence.

And this feedback loop where we talk about race and crime nationally, Don, the big elephant in the room is that we are mainly talking about Black people. Sometimes, brown people and immigrants and undocumented. But when people say there's a crime wave, all the footage they show is Black people shoplifting or committing violent crime that go viral, especially on conservative networks and news channels and social media.

LEMON: Yeah. Loni, listen, and something else that went viral, there's a video, there is so much outrage over the video of Kye (ph), a Black teenager pinned down and arrested by police over a fight in the mall. The white teenager in the fight was told to sit on the couch. The story was just another reminder that there are biases in the policing system, and these biases play out every single day.

COOMBS: They do, Don. I look at this video and I see it's a litmus test for implicit bias. You know, there are these tests you can do to see if you have implicit bias where you're giving these scenarios and they change the race or the person involved or the gender, and then you're tested to see what your immediate response is.

And here in this case, you have the officers coming and seeing two young men involved in the same behavior, one is a black teenager and one is a white teenager. And the way the officers respond to the Black teenager is so different from the white teenager. It's literally just their immediate response.

We've been talking about bias for years now and there's been talk about training, but it's very clear from this video that it still needs to go further and needs to be inculcated into the performance. And I think that's why this video is so important because people can see it in action here. It just happened so blatantly that you can't deny it.

LEMON: Yeah. Peniel, you say that there's a one size, fits all criminal in justice system. Explain how it works and how it targets Black people.

JOSEPH: We have a system of mass incarceration, and Don, it goes back 150 years after racial slavery, convict lease systems of the first case of racial profiling after the Civil War, equality of life crimes, Black men and women who were not employed could be actually charged and placed in prisons and then leased out to private companies to work in coal mines and turpentine mines. And that has continued into the 20th century and into the 21st century.

So, the way it works is that the criminal justice system disproportionately targets, it stops, it surveils, it constrains and punishes Black children from the age of 5 and 6 all the way up into adulthood.

And what other things we've seen with all the data is that it criminalizes young people, pre-teens. It criminalizes young girls and boys. And we see them as a danger from the time they're in elementary school.

[23:10:00]

JOSEPH: So, it's no -- it's no wonder we have this public school to juvenile incarceration to adult incarceration pipeline in the United States. And then we have 4.5 million people disproportionately Black and brown on probation and parole. And when they are on probation and parole, Don, they have disproportionately less access to getting a job, to getting housing, to getting education. So, it's a really vicious feedback loop.

So, my argument is that we need less punishment and more investment. What we don't want right now, when we see these viral videos, we have to reimagine policing in the United States. We have to reimagine public safety from stem to root if we really want the same kind of compassion that that judge showed today. That compassion can be a model if that compassion is shown to everyone.

LEMON: Got it.

JOSEPH: To Black teenager who is having -- who has done a mistake. None of us are the worst mistake we've ever committed, and that's what that judge was saying, but too often, when it comes to Black people and Black lives, people do not show that kind of radical compassion in every part of the system. So, we need to reimagine policing and reimagine public safety in this country.

LEMON: Peniel, Loni, thank you very much. I appreciate it so much.

Now, let's dive into the politics of it all with "The New York Times" national political reporter Astead Herndon. He has some new reporting out in the "Times" today and the headline is, they wanted to roll back tough-on-crime policies, then violent crime surged. And here we are. Good evening to you.

That's fascinating. Thank you for writing this. Thank you for appearing. We are just talking about the cases that really galvanize a lot of the Black Lives Matter and police reform movement. But your reporting finds that movement and the leaders elected because of it are actually facing intense backlash over the rise in crime. Explain to us what is going on, Astead.

ASTEAD HERNDON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, NATIONAL POLITICS REPORTER FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES: Yeah. We are seeing couple things. Our reporting shows that they're dealing with the facts of rising crime and the surge of violent crime in a number of cities. You know, these are progressive prosecutors in a lot of these major cities that were the kind of the embodiment of that argument to reimagine policing. They've been pushing about the elimination of cash bail, to lower sentences, moving away from that punishment model.

But as we have seen in recent -- in kind of recent months and years, there's been a political backlash against them. That is somewhat because of the crime surge but also because of midterm politics of it all. You have a Democratic Party that is not really thinking about the same type of voters. It was thinking about the presidential election. It was thinking about midterm election.

And so, some of those alliances that were true for these progressive prosecutors over the last four years become a little more strained to that.

LEMON: Let's talk about it. What is the political calculus for all these new progressive leaders facing elevated crimes in their cities? The policies they want to enact are not in place yet in those places and it would take really months, if not years, to change any of that. None of that has been changed yet. But progressives are being blamed for this right now --

HERNDON: Right.

LEMON: -- in the moment. Is it just a confluence of incidents or is it just -- is it a part of it because they're being laxed in some ways or more laxed, I should say, in the crime?

HERNDON: We should be clear, there's not a causal relationship or evidence that these progressive policies have caused in the surge in crime. Crime has surged -- violent crimes have surged in a lot of cities that don't have progressive prosecutors. We know that the calls to defund police were not heeded in most cities. We haven't seen those come to fruition. And those are still seeing that rise in surge of crime.

But it is politics here also because not only are folks seeing the kind of (INAUDIBLE) progressive prosecutors, but they're also seeing a way (ph) to hem in the Democratic Party.

You have Republicans who see a good midterm election year and they're trying to push for that. But you also have a Democratic Party who is seeing President Biden, embracing folks like Mayor Adams and is leading a little more on that hard on crime, tough on crime language than they were three, four years ago.

LEMON: Yeah. So often, when we talk about the economy, we talk about politicians can't change how Americans feel in their day-to-day lives. People feel how they feel about it. Is that the same with crime, people feel how they feel about it?

HERNDON: I think it's important to know that this is nuanced, particularly when we look at polling and data among -- if you talk about Black Americans. It's not just one-sided. It's not just that folks want more law enforcement and progressive prosecutors are out of touch.

It is a mixture of things. It is -- we have seen polling being strong, particularly in the last year and a half, about people wanting to see police reined in and see the kind of larger tenants of Black Lives Matter movement, but they want that to happen in tandem or happening alongside of public safety.

The progressive prosecutors say that their policies will lead to a safer neighborhoods and communities, but you have other Democrats who are pushing back against it.

What I think we're going to see here as we look forward is a party in the midterms who is going to have to choose a side, you know? President Biden has really weighed in on this.

[23:14:58]

Does the Democratic Party still have the same fervor for criminal justice reform as they did during the primary, as they did during the presidential election?

LEMON: They're not really talking about criminal justice reform as much. I think they're trying to lose that whole narrative of being identified with defund the police, which was never the tenant of the Democratic Party.

HERNDON: Never. LEMON: It was progressives, some progressives and really mostly activists.

HERNDON: Right.

LEMON: But President Biden has said he wants to fund the police --

HERNDON: Right.

LEMON: -- instead of defunding the police, but somehow that has not caught on.

HERNDON: That has not caught on and it is partly because there has been attacks that tried to pin that on progressives. I mean, you have -- if you talk about the squad, if you talk about these progressive prosecutors, most of them do not actually endorse that idea. They're conflating an activist position with an elected official position, but either way, it's creating a political problem --

LEMON: It's politics.

HERNDON: -- for those prosecutors and they're even admitting that this moment is a moment of political backlash.

LEMON: Yeah. Yeah. "The New York Times," Astead Herndon, they wanted to roll back tough-on-crime policies. Then violent crime surged. Thank you, sir.

HERNDON: Thank you.

LEMON: Good to see you in person.

HERNDON: Nice to see you also.

LEMON: Be well. We'll talk during the break.

The president of the United States for the very first time bluntly saying that he is convinced that Vladimir Putin has now made the decision to invade Ukraine. We're live in Ukraine, next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: The entire free world is united. Russia has a choice between war and all the suffering it will bring or diplomacy that will make a future safer for everyone.

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[23:20:00]

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LEMON (on camera): President Biden says he is convinced Vladimir Putin has made the decision to invade Ukraine and will target the capital of Kyiv.

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Biden: As of this moment, I'm convinced he has made the decision. We have reason to believe that.

UNKNOWN : To be clear, you are convinced that -- you are convinced that President Putin is going to invade Ukraine? Is that what you just said a few moments ago?

Biden: Yes, I did.

UNKNOWN: What reason do you have to believe he's considering that option at all?

Biden: We have a significant intelligence capability.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): Another sign Russia is preparing for an invasion, a U.S. defense official telling CNN nearly half of Russian forces surrounding Ukraine are in attack position tonight.

I want to go live now to Ukraine where CNN international correspondent Michael Holmes is in Lviv for us tonight. Michael, hello to you. President Biden says Putin has made a decision to invade. U.S. officials tell CNN half the Russian forces are in attack mode. The Ukrainian people are waking up to this terrifying news. Take us to the ground there. What is it like? Are they ready?

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Interesting in terms of preparedness. I was actually interviewing the mayor of this city where I am, Lviv, which is in the west of the country. I was speaking to him yesterday. And this is a place where a few Ukrainians have already come to from Kyiv, fearing, of course, the capital would be a primary target in any attack.

The mayor said that the preparations are well under way for more people to flee if an invasion happens. They've setup shelters of food and medicine stocks, protections for infrastructure as much as they can, things like water supplies. They're even constructing wards and operating theaters underneath hospitals.

So, a fair bit of preparation going on and a lot of hope, of course, that it won't happen. But will it happen? Well, you know, as you said, President Biden is fulsome in his claim that it is. Russia says that's untrue. Ukraine is fiercely saying, well, we don't know for sure.

Militarily, though, Ukraine has come a long way in recent years, receiving weaponry from the U.S. and others, of course. But the reality is the Ukrainian military is no match for the Russians by no comparison. If there is an invasion, it will not be a fair fight.

LEMON: Michael, President Zelensky is supposed to travel to Germany tomorrow for the Munich Security Conference. Is he still going to go? HOLMES: Yeah, it's a really interesting one, Don. He wants to go. He

had a meeting setup with Vice President Kamala Harris. Obviously, the country will be the prime topic of talks. But it is interesting because the U.S. is now urging him not to go. The fear is that if he is out the country, it could open, for one, the propaganda door to the Russians to say, oh, the president has fled the country. Also perhaps prompt the Russians to invade while the country's commander-in-chief isn't there to run things.

U.S. officials say it's his call. Senior Ukrainian officials say, by the way, said they were concerned about all of this. In the event of Russian actions, air travel, of course, could be disrupted. You might find it hard to get back, Don.

LEMON: The U.S. and NATO have been warning about how Russia would use false flags to create a pretextual war. What's been happening on the ground there in the last 24 hours, Michael?

HOLMES: Well, in the east of the country, quite a lot, Don. As you've been reporting in the eastern Donbas region where, of course, those Russian-backed separatists have been fighting Ukrainian forces for eight years now, it is always been a place where we've seen that things could kick off.

And it was interesting, yesterday, leaders of those breakaway regions all of a sudden called on civilian residents to leave, head to Russia because of what they call preparations by Ukraine to attack. Ukraine strongly denies that. There's no evidence on the ground of that.

There was also an explosion in the region, apparently a car bomb. As you said, this comes at a time when there's so much talk about false flag operations, disinformation and so on. Russia (INAUDIBLE) separatists creating an emergency situation which would give Russia an excuse to invade. Certainly, a high stakes moment.

And add to that, Jim Sciutto is reporting that the (INAUDIBLE) U.S. intelligence assessment paints what they called a bleak picture. So (INAUDIBLE) is going to continue. The threat that this invasion could actually happen is bigger than ever, Don.

LEMON: Michael Holmes, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

[23:24:59]

I want to turn now to CNN global affairs analyst Susan Glasser. Susan, good evening to you. This is the first time the president is saying Putin -- is saying that Putin has made the decision to attack and is going to target the capital of Kyiv.

Biden also tweeting tonight, we're calling out Russia's plans not because we want a conflict but because we are doing everything in our power to remove any reason Russia may give to justify invading Ukraine.

Is there any way that he'd make a statement like this without sobering and definitive intelligence?

SUSAN GLASSER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, look, Don, this is something I have not seen from the U.S. government. It's really been notable real time putting out this very secret intelligent world or attempting to document what Russia is doing in a way to head it off That's what they're seeing.

And it is striking. If you go back to late November, early December, the U.S. was already warning of this kind of a buildup. At a time, many people dismissed it, said, we don't know what's going to happen. They said pretty accurately, as it turned out, that Russia was assembling an invasion force, that it was going to constitute as many as 175,000 people, that primetime for an invasion would be right around now.

So, you know, again, this has been months in the making. But today, as you said, vice president -- I mean President Biden said something we haven't heard before, which is not that Putin might do it, but he's actually decided to do it. That was really (INAUDIBLE) coming from the president.

LEMON: Yeah. Susan, Putin is determined to restore the Soviet Union. Do you think anything is going to deter him? Do you still think there is a chance for diplomacy here or is that over?

GLASSER: Well, you know, it's never too late to do the right thing, Don. And, you know, it looks bleak now. The thing that has concerned me all along throughout this crisis is the fact that Putin has never seemed to be serious at all about diplomacy. His demands are not the kind of things that you can negotiate.

Essentially, he's been demanding that the United States and NATO turn back the clock to 1997 or really turn back the clock to 1991 when the breakup of the Soviet Union happened. Those are not things that you can negotiate.

Existential issues for Ukraine as well which has been trying the aspiration of NATO membership in its very constitution. You can't just stick a gun to your neighbor's head or 150,000 guns and say change your constitution. So, how can you negotiate over that? So, I've never been really, unfortunately, very optimistic about diplomacy given that.

LEMON: Susan, you have been saying from the very beginning that this whole situation is of Putin's own making. Nothing has changed to threaten Putin or Russia. President Biden is also emphasizing this is Putin's choice to go to war. Are we talking about massive casualties, Ukrainian and Russian, all for the sake of Putin's ego? Is that what this comes down to?

GLASSER: Well, I mean, you know, Don, there is certainly a constituency inside Russia that, you know, I think of it as an imperial hangover that never lost the idea that Ukraine and other parts of the former Soviet Union should still be a part of the Russian empire, that it was their version of the stab in the back, that it was stolen from them or the empire needs to return in some form. So, Vladimir Putin is not alone in holding those views. He is the man who said that the breakup of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophes in the 20th century. Now, there were a lot of geopolitical catastrophes in the 20th century, and I'm not sure this ranks as number one, but it tells you about the mindset here.

Putin is also in legacy mode. He has been essentially an unchallenged czar of Russia for the last 20 years and it seems he has really decided once again to resort to military force because this is not the first time.

It is important for people to understand, this is not the first war of choice that Vladimir Putin has embarked upon. He's not only invaded not only Ukraine before but Georgia before. He came to power due to the war inside Russia, in Chechnya. And so, this is not someone who has been hesitant to use military force in the course of his 20 years.

LEMON: Susan Glasser, thank you so much. I appreciate it.

GLASSER: Thank you.

LEMON: Classified information, National Security documents, and the former president took them with him when he left Washington. Now, the DOJ is involved. That's next.

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[23:30:00]

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LEMON: The National Archives telling Congress today classified documents were among the materials retrieved from those 15 boxes the former president took with him to Mar-a-Lago. The Archives says that they are in communication with the Department of Justice about what they found.

So, joining me now to discuss, New York Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney. She is the chair of the House Oversight Committee, and we are so happy to have you on. Good evening, congresswoman.

REP. CAROLYN MALONEY (D-NY): Good evening. Thank you for having me on.

LEMON: Absolutely. The National Archives says that they have identified classified national security documents in those 15 boxes of records. That is alarming to think that these were just sitting in his resort. How big of a breach of security is this?

MALONEY: I think it's a grave breach. It's extremely troubling. And I want to make clear what we found today.

[23:34:53]

Just a few hours ago, we got a response from a letter that I wrote on February 10th to the National Archives seeking detailed accounting of the 15 boxes and whether or not there was any classified information, and we learned three basic things today.

First, they confirmed that there was classified information, as you said, and that they have communicated with Department of Justice. Secondly, they confirmed that the former president had destroyed, ripped up documents, even though our committee and the Archives had warned them against such actions as far back as 2018, and they even confirmed that they received torn-up pieces of paper that they literally had to paste together.

And very troubling also, they determined that many social media communications were absolutely missing, not only from the president but from some of his closest advisers. So, all of this is deeply troubling.

LEMON: Wow, that is a lot of information. Thank you for that. The Archives says that because they've uncovered classified material, they turned over all this information to the DOJ. So, then, do we know what happens next here or is this so unprecedented you have no idea what happens?

MALONEY: Well, it's up to the DOJ to respond to the information that they've received. It's up to our committee to make sure that all the documents are found. It is a crime to destroy presidential documents. It's supposed to be preserved for the American people. It belongs to the American people. And we are in the process of reviewing what information is lost, what information is found.

The Archives have said that they will complete an inventory of what they have found by the end of February. And we will study this information to come up with procedures and processes so that this does not happen again and that the information is preserved for the future.

LEMON: Now, those ripped-up documents, what can you tell us about them?

MALONEY: Well, I haven't seen the ripped-up documents, but we now know that they were ripped up and that they literally, which is almost unbelievable, delivered to the Archives ripped-up documents. So, the Archives had to work with a puzzle and paste them all together again.

So, we are in the beginning of this review. As I said, we just got this letter several hours ago, and they were responding to my February 10th inquiry.

LEMON: You think they're trying to hide something?

MALONEY: Well, it doesn't look good. Why in the world did 15 boxes that belong in the Archives office end up in Florida?

LEMON: That's a good question. Congressman, we know there's still more documents that the Archives is trying to retrieve. How are they going to get those records if they just won't turn them over?

MALONEY: Well, this is an investigation that's in progress. So, one step at a time. We now have this information and we'll build on it, and we'll work together to get the most complete review.

LEMON: Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney, thank you so much. I appreciate you joining us.

MALONEY: Thank you.

LEMON: So, it's not just the classified documents. A judge saying Trump could be culpable and sued for January 6th as a another says that he has to testify in a deposition over his business practices. A lot of bad news for the former president.

Plus, Olympic fallout from the Russian skater doping scandal.

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[23:40:00]

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LEMON: A very bad week for the former president. A federal judge ruling he can be sued in a civil lawsuit and suggesting he is culpable for January 6th. Another judge ruling he and his children can be deposed in a New York -- in the New York attorney general's civil investigation of his business practices. And details emerging over his mishandling of classified documents. The walls closing in. Can the former president continue to dodge accountability?

Joining me now to discuss, Mark McKinnon. He is a former advisor to George w. Bush and executive producer of "The Circus" on Showtime. Thank you, sir, for joining us. I appreciate it. Good evening to you, Mark. Those are only some of the investigations swirling around Trump right now. With pressure seemingly on all sides, do you think something finally sticks?

MARK MCKINNON, FORMER ADVISER TO GEORGE W. BUSH AND JOHN MCCAIN, EXECUTIVE PRODUCER OF "THE CIRCUS": I do, Don. I mean, I thought it since he even entered the presidential race. We know from our own reporting that Donald Trump never really planned to be president. He knew that -- he loved the spotlight, he loves attention, and the best way to get attention is to run for the president of the United States. That was the number one order of business.

But he never expected to be president. In fact, we know that his plan was to run for a while, get a bunch of attention, then endorse Chris Christie. And then he just kept winning, but that was by accident. He never expected to be president.

And one of the consequences of being president is he opened himself up to a ton of legal liability. He's dodged a ton of it, he's slipped the knot over and over and over again.

[23:44:56]

But from the very beginning, I've said this, but it's not just by opinion but most legal experts and anybody who's been around New York real estate, that's what's going to get him in the end. It's going to be the real estate deals, the taxes, and, you know, this notion that his taxes have been audited and he couldn't show them, which is what he said during the campaign, and it is now how many years later.

So, we know that's a complete fraud, the taxes, and the excuse was because there's a problem there. There's a big problem. There's legal liability. So, I think at the end of the day, that's going to be the legal liability that ties him up.

LEMON: You know, as all of the details of these investigations come out, can he keep this iron grip on the GOP or could this be an opportunity for potential rivals or anyone who just wants to move on from the chaos and the crazy?

MCKINNON: Well, I always go back to the man who would be king, that great story where, you know, this colonial character is deified right up until the moment he's cut, and then the natives see blood and they boil him and cannibalize him. I'm not sure that's exactly what will happen to Trump, but it'll be close.

As soon as the legal liability or any sort of -- you know, he shows any sort of mortality, legal or health wise, you know, the vultures are going to move fast and hard and there's a lot of them waiting.

LEMON (on camera): Last night, the former vice president, Mike Pence, defending the RNC wording that claimed people were involved in legitimate political discourse during the January 6th insurrection. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think they made a very clear statement after the fact that said we're talking about what's happening in Washington today with the January 6th Committee, and I believe them. They're good people. I believe that's what they meant.

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LEMON (on camera): Okay. I mean, what is he doing? Is he just trying to make good after saying that Trump was wrong earlier this month?

MCKINNON: That's one of the most laughable things I've ever heard in my life. That's the weakest excuse. And you know, I mean, Mike Pence is just a weak man. He did the right thing under a lot of stress and I appreciate that fact, but, you know, he at the end of the day still goes back and genuflects before Trump.

Listen, you've reported on some of what Judge Michael Luttig (ph) has said in the last day or two, which I think is really powerful. This guy is the most respected Republican jurist, retired federal judge, and he said, for the past six years, I've watched and listened and discussed that not one single leader of ours with the moral authority, the courage, and the will to stand up and say, no, this is not who we are, this is not what America is, and it is not what we want to be, has done so.

There are a couple like Liz Cheney, and I think Liz Cheney has said, listen, principles matter to me more than holding a congressional seat. If she holds it, great. If she doesn't, I think she will be fine with that. But I guarantee you the history books will remember Liz Cheney and not Kevin McCarthy.

LEMON: Yeah, right on. The House minority leader, Kevin McCarthy is endorsing Liz Cheney's opponent, by the way, right? The one who is backed by Trump. This party has been trying to purge Cheney, other Republicans who want to hold Trump accountable for the insurrection, or won't go along with this whole big lie thing. Will it matter what happens if she wins anyway?

MCKINNON: No, I don't think so. And, you know, listen, given the dynamics of the Trump primaries and the buy into the big lie, which continues to astonish any commonsense American out there, that in the face of no evidence of fraud and after being endorsed by the president's own attorney general, his own elections officer as one of the fairest elections we've ever had, the three quarters of the Republican Party continues to buy into it and it has become a litmus test.

So, anybody who won't admit to a lie gets purge from the Republican Party. So, you know, I think the Republican Party just dig in itself deeper and deeper into the hole. It is a very short-term view for people who want to try and win primaries. But in the long run, I don't think it is going to look great for them or for the country or for the Republican Party.

LEMON: Yeah. Well, listen, a lot of -- he is really making his influence felt in primaries around this country. What do you think? Do you think it's hurting the party in general, or does it matter what happens as it relates to what's coming out of this investigation in New York, or do you think he'll still have a big impact on the primaries?

MCKINNON: I think he's going to have a big impact in primaries, but the problem is the general elections, Don. I mean, you know, remember this is the guy that for the first time in a hundred years since Grover Cleveland lost the presidency, lost the Senate, lost the House, I mean, that's his track record as an incumbent president.

[23:49:55]

And he's only going to be weaker now, but it looks like very possible because the Republican Party can't quit him, that he would be the nominee if he runs, and therefore, the future doesn't look bright for 2024 for the Republican Party and beyond unless they can get Trump off the windshield and into the rearview mirror.

LEMON: Off the windshield and rearview mirror. Mark McKinnon, only you come up with those things. Thank you very much. I appreciate it, sir.

MCKINNON: Thanks, Don. LEMON: Fallout from the Olympic doping scandal involving a 15-year- old Russian skater. A major rule change could be coming soon.

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[23:55:00]

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LEMON: The doping scandal involving Russian skater Kamila Valieva at the Beijing Winter Olympics now leading to a proposal to raise the minimum age for competitors to 17. Valieva was allowed to compete despite testing positive for a banned substance because she is only 15 years old.

As a minor, she is considered a protected person under the World Anti- Doping code, so the Court of Arbitration for Sport rules she could stay in the Olympics.

Well, today, the International Figure Skating Union, the governing body of the sport, telling CNN that a vote on a proposal to hike the minimum age to 17 will take place at its next meeting in June.

Thanks for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

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