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Don Lemon Tonight

Biden Hits Russia With Sanctions For "Beginning" Ukraine Invasion; Arbery Killers Found Guilty Of Federal Hate Crimes; Celebrating Black History Month. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired February 22, 2022 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[23:00:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DON LEMON, CNN HOST (on camera): President Biden warning Russia has begun an invasion into Ukraine. In response, Biden ordering what he calls the first tranche of sanctions, taking action against two large Russian financial institutions and targeting Russian elites and their families.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Who in the Lord's name does Putin think gives him the right to declare new so- called countries on territory that belonged to his neighbors? This is a flagrant violation of international law and demands a firm response from the international community.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): And Biden is not alone. Some of the United States' western allies also imposing sanctions. And Secretary of State Tony Blinken canceling a meeting in Geneva this week with Russian foreign minister.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF STATE: Now that we see the invasion is beginning and Russia has made clear its wholesale rejection of diplomacy, it does not make sense to go forward with that meeting at this time. I consulted with our allies and partners. All agree.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): We're going live to Ukraine in just a moment for the very latest there and CNN's Fareed Zakaria will join me with his expert analysis.

Also, ahead this hour, the three white men convicted of killing Ahmaud Arbery in Georgia found guilty of all charges in their federal hate crimes trial. Jurors concluding the defendants' actions were racially- motivated. They chased and killed Arbery because he was Black. I want to get right now to our big story here. CNN's Michael Holmes is live for us in Lviv, Ukraine. Michael, hello to you. President Biden came out very strongly against what he is now calling Russia's invasion of Ukraine. What has the reaction been in Ukraine?

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Don. Yeah, good morning here from Lviv in Ukraine. Ukraine has always taken a less strident position, let's say, than the U.S. and the west in general when it comes to the chances of full invasion.

President Zelenskyy, he still feels -- or perhaps the word is hopes that there won't be an all-out war. Interestingly, though, he is calling up reservists to bolster the regular forces. Now, he says it's not a full mobilization, it's a call up for training, but it does show the increasing concern on the ground as those Russian forces continue to build up and are in attack formations, Don.

LEMON: What do we know about where Russian troops might go to next?

HOLMES: Yeah, that's the big unknown, of course. But one important factor in all of this and what Putin approved is the land those Russian-backed separatist control in the Donbas is not the entirety of those two oblasts or provinces, Luhansk and Donetsk, and Vladimir Putin recognized the independence of that whole area, not just the area under rebel control.

So, the concern obviously is that there will be efforts perhaps after a staged provocation to retake all of that land and that would really mean the war is on. You might say Putin moved to secure land along the Sea of Azov and create that land connection, the land bridge between Russia and Russian-occupied Crimea to the south, which analysts have long thought he wants.

Of course, only Putin knows for sure his next move, but that is one consideration that has people worried, that that whole area that the separatist control and what Putin recognized, Don.

LEMON: Michael, Ukraine's foreign minister speaking alongside Secretary Blinken today after the U.S. announced sanctions. He is saying that Russia can still be stopped.

HOLMES (on camera): Yeah, yeah, he urged the west to continue to apply pressure. He said that Ukraine will not back down, it will not give up. And here's part of what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DMYTRO KULEBA, UKRANIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: We have two plans. Plan A is to utilize every tool of diplomacy to deter Russia and prevent further escalation.

[23:05:00]

And if that fails, plan B is to fight for every inch of our land and every city and every village.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES (on camera): So, obviously, determination there, Don. And you know, it's interesting also a lot of people think that if Russia moved in with its full might, the Ukrainian military is going to have to pivot at some point, one-on-one, it ain't a fair fight, and pivot to a sort of insurgency.

Ukrainian units have been training for that, just sort of the hit-and- run, the sort of thing we saw al-Qaeda and others do in Iraq and mujahideen do in Afghanistan against the Russians and al-Qaeda against the Americans there. Move to that sort of insurgency, which would be bloody and irregular, Don.

LEMON: All right. Michael Holmes, thank you very much. I appreciate it.

I want to bring in now CNN military analyst and retired army Major General Spider Marks. So glad to have you here. Thank you very much.

JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS, CNN MILITARY ANALYST, RETIRED U.S. ARMY MAJOR GENERAL: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Let's get into this because you're going to take us inside here. The president calling this an invasion today, finally saying that. He says that they are carving out a big chunk of Ukraine beyond where the Russian separatists already control and that Putin is looking to take even more. Show us where these Russian troops are and where they could be headed, general.

MARKS: Well, when you look at the map, Don, you can see right there that there is a clear red line that indicates where the Russian forces have been in Ukraine for the last eight years. So, that's the portion of Donetsk in the south and Luhansk up north. What you see beyond that is the white line. That's the rest of the Donbas. That's the rest of those provinces.

And we can anticipate with the movement of Russian forces into the area where they are right now, so an increase in that Russian presence, that in very short order, I think, one of two things -- two things will happen.

One is I think there will be a quick election that validates Putin's decision to go in. And then he's going to say, see, these people want to be a part of Russia and we're here to help them do that. And then in very quick order, he'll move and start to engage Ukrainian forces in the rest of the Donbas. I think that's the next move.

LEMON: So, you think he'll meet resistance in the wider Donetsk and Luhansk area?

MARKS: Yes. Once he gets beyond the initial area that has had Russian forces occupy it and supporting the separatists for the last eight years, I think he'll go across and expand into that.

LEMON: The Ukrainian foreign minister said tonight that Ukrainians will fight for every inch of their country. How will this go down?

MARKS: Not well. Not well. There will be dead bodies. The Ukrainian forces are motivated, they're confident, they're nationalists, they're independent, and they want to demonstrate that. The Russians have artillery and rockets and are very brutal in how they fight. This isn't a precise fight. The Ukrainians will not do well. They'll acquit themselves, but they will not win a conventional fight.

And as it's been described, the bigger engagement will involve insurgencies of some sort. But if it's restricted to the Donbas, Putin is calculating that that is manageable, because, you know, he has not gone back to his population to say, get ready for a bunch of body bags. I'm not trying to be graphic here.

LEMON: Yeah.

MARKS: But the population understands that there's going to be a commitment, but it's not going to be that painful. Ukrainians, on the other hand, for them, it will be painful.

You remember what Stalin said. A single death is a tragedy. A million death is a statistic.

LEMON: Uh-hm.

MARKS: There will be tragedy in this fight.

LEMON: Yeah. You're not being graphic. This is -- this is what war is. This is what --

MARKS: Of course, it is.

LEMON: This is what happens. So, I want to look at this wider map of the area. We don't know what Putin is going to do, but what is the next level of aggression if he decides to take a much larger piece of Ukraine, possibly even Kyiv or -- how could he stage an attack?

MARKS: Well, if he were going to go to Kyiv, he would need -- if he wanted to go to Kyiv and hold and control Kyiv, he would need far more forces than he has deployed right now. He does not have the fire -- he can do a lot of damage, but he is not going to cut off Ukraine. He's not going to go to Kyiv and try to control Kyiv at this point. He would rubble it. He would ruin it.

He doesn't want to control it. He wants to convince them that the path forward is through Moscow. It would take a large force, an incredibly large force. And this would turn into a nasty fight, as it's been described throughout the country.

LEMON: I want to look at -- looking at the broader region, the U.S. is moving more troops and weapons like F-35s and Apache attack helicopters towards NATO-allied countries in Eastern Europe and the Baltics. Biden is adamant that the U.S. troops will not fight in the Ukraine. So, what does this added level of force do?

MARKS: Well, provides -- obviously if it's not -- you know, deterrence gives you two things. [23:09:59]

One is the force that you are trying to put in place will deter your opponent because of its capabilities, its size, its strength, and your willingness to use it. The second thing of deterrence is if that incredible step doesn't work, you've got a capability to start killing a bunch of bad guys, you can crush some people.

So, increasing that presence bolsters NATO. It makes NATO feel like we are going to be unified in this. And Putin wants to try to fracture that alliance. But when you look at this map, you realize that NATO over the course of the last 20-plus years has expanded to the east and that's what has Putin upset and now has him talking about reclaiming Ukraine.

LEMON: Listen, you -- no one knows better these situations than you. We hear diplomacy. We'll still take diplomacy. We're past that point. I've had a bad feeling about this. I don't know where it's going to go next. What do you think?

MARKS: Don, I do not see Putin stopping immediately in the areas where he's had forces for the last eight years. And as a military guy, you don't want to do little incremental-type operations in the Donbas. You don't want your enemy, you don't want to give your enemy, the Ukrainians from Putin's perspective, a chance to respond and puts up barriers and make it more difficult.

Once he's in that area where he has forces right now, he increases those, I would expect him to roll into the rest of the Donbas, and that's where we'll see a fight. And I think at the end of that, he'll stop.

LEMON: Thank you, general.

MARKS: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: I want to dig in deeper now, what this all means, with CNN's Fareed Zakaria. Fareed, thank you very much for joining. I appreciate it. We've been listening to the general here. We heard what the president said today, announcing serious sanctions that target Russian banks, key Putin allies, the ultrawealthy oligarchs who hold a lot of power in Russia. Are those the only likely things to hurt Putin most?

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST: Look, the Biden administration faces a difficult challenge and they're handling it carefully, deliberately, systematically, and I think basically intelligently. You are trying to punish Putin for what he has done, but also deter him for what he might do.

Both your previous guests pointed out the crucial issue is that Putin has recognized these independent republics in a larger area than they currently control. So, right now, the reality is Russian forces already occupy part of the Donbas. The question is, are they going to try to now control the entire Donbas, which is well beyond what they control now, which would mean fairly bloody combat with Ukrainian government forces? And so, you're trying to deter them from doing that. So, you want to reserve some of the most extreme sanctions before they actually do that. It's a difficult balance, but I think the Biden administration is playing this, as I say, in a careful, deliberate manner.

LEMON (on camera): Fareed, I want you to listen to what the president said about the justification Putin is giving for this action. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: Yesterday, the world heard clearly the full extent of Vladimir Putin's twisted rewrite of history, going back more than a century. He directly attacked Ukraine's right to exist. He indirectly threatened territory formerly held by Russia, including nations that today are thriving democracies and members of NATO. He explicitly threatened war unless his extreme demands were met.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Fareed, a lot of people found Putin's speech alarming. Did he say the quiet part out loud? He wants all the former Soviet Union back?

ZAKARIA: He didn't quite say that, but he came very close. And I think you're exactly right. What came across this time, most of us who have dealt with Putin, who have met him, I've met him several times, interviewed him once, we're always struck by the fact that he was very rational, he was very intelligent, clearly a Russian nationalist, but what appears to have happened is he has become emotional, almost kind of like a kind of crazy, emotional, neuralgic attitude toward Ukraine.

So, as you say, the kind of description of Ukraine as a never really being a state, created by Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, a product of Soviet communism, a kind of very bizarre series of assertions, and at the base of them, this inability to recognize that there's a very simple fact here, which is the Ukrainian people want to create their own nation.

There's no kind of mathematical logic to why one nation should be one way or another, but if a bunch of people decide they want to be a nation, we've generally said that that's appropriate.

[23:15:03]

The best response to Vladimir Putin came ironically from the most extraordinary place, which was the Kenyan ambassador to the United Nations and the U.N. Security council.

The Kenyan ambassador, in rejecting Putin's logic and voting against Putin's demands, said, look, all of Africa is made up of -- we are all artificial nations. We were all created out of artificial boundaries that were drawn by colonial powers.

But we decided that we are not going to alter these boundaries by force. We are not going to go to war to try to reclaim some mystical idea of one people or one nation. And as a -- because we understand that that is a path to the destruction of international law, international rules, international ethics and morality.

So, we're all living with the nations we have. You can make all kinds of arguments about what would be the appropriate size of any particular nation. Every nation in the world has been cobbled together in some way or the other. So, I think that what it -- the window you get from Putin is this degree of irrationality and emotionalism.

Remember, the guy has been in power 20 years. He has now been isolated because of COVID for two years. You're seeing a very peculiar worldview emanate from a very isolated, very powerful, megalomaniacal leader.

LEMON (on camera): His rationalization and his grasp on the history, when he was talking about it, to justify what he was doing was not based in reality.

Fareed, thank you very much. I appreciate you joining us. For more with Fareed, watch "Fareed Zakaria GPS," Sunday at 10:00 a.m. and 1:00 p.m. right here on CNN.

President Biden warning Americans there may be a cost here at home for defending democracy in Ukraine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: None of us, none of us should be fooled. None of us will be fooled. There is no justification. Further Russian assault in the Ukraine remains a severe threat in the days ahead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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[23:20:00]

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LEMON (on camera): President Biden taking decisive action against Russia today, imposing sanctions and calling Vladimir Putin's actions in Ukraine a flagrant violation of international law, one that demands a firm response from the international community.

Let's discuss now with CNN senior political commentator David Axelrod. David, good to see you. Thank you so much. Here we are. Here we are. So, President Biden scathing in his assessment of Putin's actions in his speech, announcing new sanctions. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: If Russia goes further with this invasion, we stand prepared to go further as with sanctions. Who in the Lord's name does Putin think gives him the right to declare new so-called countries on territory that belonged to his neighbors? This is a flagrant violation of international law and demands a firm response from the international community.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): David, hearing Biden there asking who in the Lord's name does Putin think he is, it's a very Biden thing to say. Did he hit the mark with sanctions because there's a lot at stake?

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER OBAMA SENIOR ADVISER: Yeah. look, I think -- I agree with what Fareed said a couple of minutes ago. I think he's been very deliberate, careful, tough, but careful about how he has approached this. He has done very well in keeping the NATO allies knit together, which is something that Putin didn't count on.

I think their use of intelligence and the revelations about their intelligence has shown a bright light on what Putin has been up to. And while he may -- there may be segments of the Russian public that believe his disinformation, I don't think the rest of the world does and partly because of the way the administration has handled it.

But, look, I think the president can be even stronger, and I hope he is in the state of the union, in explaining why people should care about this. You know, you do hear segments, particularly weirdly in the Republican Party now, of people saying, well, why is this our problem? Why should we care about Ukraine? And you really need to -- we heard voices like that in the 1930s.

You really need to talk about in very plain, simple terms about what it means to have one country snatching portions or the entirety of their neighbors. And what precedent does that set? Is that the world we want to live in? We constructed an order in this world after World War II to try and rules to try and avoid those kinds of catastrophes.

Obviously, the world has to respond to Vladimir Putin. I think the president has been strong on that. I think he should continue with that because, Don, the American people are going to have to -- there's going to be a price for this, and we're already seeing it.

LEMON: He talked about that, David.

AXELROD: All you have to do is go to your gas pump.

LEMON (on camera): Yeah, he talked about that. Let's watch.

AXELROD: Go ahead, Don.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: As I said last week, defending freedom will have cost for us as well and here at home. We need to be honest about that. But as we will -- but as we do this, I'm going to take robust action to make sure the pain of our sanctions is targeted at the Russian economy, not ours. I want to limit the pain to the American people, our feeling at gas pump. This is critical to me.

(END VIDEO CLIP) [23:24:57]

LEMON (on camera): So, you were just talking about that, he needs to explain to people why it's important here at home because he said he is going to take steps to blunt any increase in gas prices and the pain at the pump and so forth, but he's got to really make the case here at home.

AXELROD: Because, you know, people -- we have other things going on here. We've been coming through this pandemic. Inflation is at a 40-year high. People are already feeling the pinch at the gas pump

and at the grocery store and elsewhere, and to the extent that this makes that worse. People have to understand why, why is this so important for the United States and why at the end of the day does it make us less secure if we turn our back on flagrant aggression like this?

So, you know, I expect that he's got a state of the union next week and this will be a part of that as well and it should be. This is a really serious thing.

You know, I spent my life writing about politics, involved in politics. So, it's a weird thing for me to say. But sometimes, you have to be -- you have to sort of set the politics aside. This is one of those issues. And -- however, the politics nets out for Biden. What you sense from him is that he understands the gravity of this moment and the historical import of this moment, and he's proceeding apace deliberately and, I think, wisely to try and confront the moment.

LEMON (on camera): Well, politics aside. But, you know, politics, they're always at play here at home. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell is blaming weakness by the Biden administration for Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): I don't believe Vladimir Putin would have a couple hundred thousand troops on the border of Ukraine had we not precipitously withdrawn from Afghanistan last August. But that's where we are.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): What do you think of GOP critics who are sounding off on the president?

AXELROD: Well, look, this is the -- this is, of course, the problem we have in our politics, is everything gets weaponized for political purposes. This is really -- you know, I think we should note that there is a great deal of unanimity among major elements of both parties behind tough action to confront Putin, and that's positive.

Everybody -- you know, it would be nice if people could refrain from trying to score points right now when we're in the midst of this crisis and work in concert with the president to send a strong message to Putin. But, you know, that's not the way of the world, Don. So, I don't expect that's going to happen.

But it is interesting to watch republican -- you know, there aren't a lot of things these days that Republicans and Democrats come together around, and there are interesting alliances of Democrats and Republicans right now working on sanctions and other -- and other bills to try and send a strong message and back the president up in his confrontation with Putin.

LEMON: David, thank you very much.

AXELROD: All right. Good to see you.

LEMON: The three white men convicted of killing Ahmaud Arbery now guilty of federal hate crimes. But they may not have been held accountable if not for Ahmaud Arbery's family.

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[23:30:00]

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LEMON: A verdict in the federal hate crimes trial over the killing of ahmaud arbery. The three men already convicted of murdering Arbery found guilty today of hate crimes and attempted kidnapping. The trial putting their racist text messages, social media posts, and conversations on full display.

Joining me now is Wanda Cooper-Jones, Ahmaud Arbery's mother, and Mark Maguire, attorney for Ahmaud Arbery's family. Thank you both for joining us. Ms. Cooper-Jones, I'm so happy that you're here, I'm honored that you're here, and watching you today was just amazing. How are you feeling?

WANDA COOPER-JONES, MOTHER OF AHMAUD ARBERY: I'm exhausted, but I'm thankful.

LEMON: Yeah. The evidence in this case was damning. It took the jury just a little over three hours to determine the three men pursued and murdered your son, sadly, because of his race. How are you feeling tonight about the verdict?

COOPER-JONES: Again, very thankful that the DOJ presented the case very well and they came out with a very good verdict.

LEMON: Yeah. You know, this trial almost didn't happen. And really it happened because of you. You pushed back after the Justice Department accepted a plea deal with the McMichaels. Tell us why it was so important for you to have the full trial.

COOPER-JONES: The criminal trial actually showed everyone what happened on the streets of Satilla Shores on the 23rd of February. But this hate crime trial actually showed the world what was going on in the minds of the murderers who killed Ahmaud, their state of mind, what type of people they really were.

LEMON: Both trials must have been excruciating for you, reliving your son's death, but this one in particular was full of racist messages and slurs from the defendants. How hard was it for you to sit in that courtroom today, day in and day out, I should ask?

[23:35:00]

COOPER-JONES: It was very hard, just knowing that Ahmaud was killed by these three men who actually looked upon him as just less than human. I mean, they called him things like -- they used words referencing to people of color, monkeys and the N-word, and as they chased Ahmaud through the streets of Satilla Shores, they described it as having Ahmaud trapped like a rat. It was very hard.

LEMON (on camera): I just want your reaction to, if you will, the attorney general today about the verdict. Listen. Here he is.

COOPER-JONES: Okay.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MERRICK GARLAND, UNITED STATES ATTORNEY GENERAL: No one should fear being attacked or threatened because of what they look like, where they are from, whom they love, or how they worship. And no one should fear that if they go out for a run, they will be targeted and killed because of the color of their skin.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON (on camera): You called out the DOJ today. What do you think about what Garland is saying?

COOPER-JONES: I really appreciate him taking his time today to speak to I mean, the family, giving his warm thoughts and regards. But at the same time, the family really had to push for this trial today. Without that push, this trial wouldn't have happened.

LEMON: Mark, what do you think of the attorney general's remarks?

MARK MAGUIRE, ATTORNEY FOR AHMAUD ARBERY'S FAMILY: Well, as Wanda said, it was heartwarming to hear him express compassion. Again, it was Wanda's efforts from the beginning that pushed this case from Satilla Shores all the way up to the attorney general of the United States. She's really to be congratulated on that. But we do appreciate the sentiments of the attorney general.

LEMON: Mark, why was it so important not only for the family but also legally to have these men go to trial for federal hate crimes?

MAGUIRE: Well, as Wanda said, I think the most important thing was that this evidence be allowed to be seen by the world. For a lot of strategic reasons, the state murder trial really didn't include a lot of the evidence that most people really knew was bubbling under the surface but it wasn't presented to the jury and it wasn't presented to the world. So, the whole story has now been told and there's been guilty verdicts not just of the murder but a hate crime, and this is, you know, closer to resolution.

LEMON: You know, Wanda, I have to be honest. Just watching -- interviewing you from the beginning when this started, I think there's been a transformation, and you had to step up and do it. I spoke with Ahmaud's father and also with Benjamin Crump in the hour before us. And I talked about the mothers of the movement and how you guys find strength and how you just evolve in the situation and just are protectors of your children. What has this experience been like for you?

COOPER-JONES: I've just done what any mother would do. We have to fight for our children. I just did what any mother would have done.

LEMON: What's next, Wanda?

COOPER-JONES: What's next is we have to deal with the DAs who are just as responsible in the murder of Ahmaud than Travis, Greg, and Roddie Bryan. We have two DAs to go, Jackie Johnson and (INAUDIBLE).

LEMON: Yeah. And Mark, I know you'll be there with her by her side. Thank you both very much. I appreciate you joining us. Really appreciate it. Thank you.

COOPER-JONES: Thank you.

MAGUIRE: Thank you.

LEMON: We'll be right back.

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[23:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON (on camera): Tonight, we continue celebrating Black History Month with a special series we are calling "Inspiring Voices." So many Black artists, journalists, and leaders have touched my lives and the lives of my colleagues. Oscar-nominated filmmaker Lee Daniels is a friend of mine who has faced a lot of the same challenges I've had, and he has persevered.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON: I feel very fortunate to be in a position that I'm in, but along with that goes, obviously, a lot of attention. So, I try to look at the positive sides, but there's always the negative, and I think that a lot of the criticism for me, which is hard, is based in racism and homophobia.

LEE DANIELS, OSCAR-NOMINATED FILMMAKER: What do you think is something more simple?

LEMON: Lee Daniels is a tangible lesson of survival in this business as someone who is in very similar skin and is in the public eye. He is the closest version of a mirror besides me actually looking in the mirror at myself.

So, Lee, let us talk about growing up, okay? It wasn't easy.

[23:45:00]

And that's why I think I relate to you, because it wasn't easy growing up keeping that secret. You know what I'm talking about.

DANIELS: Yeah, the secret.

LEMON: The secret.

DANIELS: The secret. I think we came up in a time where it was hard being Black.

LEMON: Uh-hm.

DANIELS: It was hard being a Black man.

LEMON: Hard enough being Black.

DANIELS: Yeah. That's what my dad said.

LEMON: But then on top of that --

DANIELS: Being gay. My dad said that to me. You know, it's hard enough to be a Black man.

LEMON: Yeah.

DANIELS: Why do you want to add gay on top of that?

LEMON: Yeah.

DANIELS: You will not survive.

LEMON: Yeah.

DANIELS: And I believed him.

LEMON: But your dad threw you in a trash can.

DANIELS: Yeah. Yep.

LEMON: That wasn't hard?

DANIELS: But I love my dad.

LEMON: This is the first mentor that I could reach out and touch, that I could really say anything to, and he would understand it.

We talk to each other like best friends. And sometimes, those conversations need to be had.

DANIELS: What I didn't tell you when we talked about it the first time was when writing a television show or I'm writing a film, it really is because I want to exorcise the demons that are in me and just get rid of the bad thoughts that I've had.

LEMON: I think "Empire" was transformative because we learned more about lee Daniels through "Empire."

DANIELS: All of my work is personal, but "Empire" was particularly personal because it addressed homophobia in the Black community, which is something that we simply -- at that time, it was inconceivable to talk about.

You've got a lot of homophobic people out there that don't want to talk -- here come Lee Daniels with his gay agenda.

LEMON: Right.

DANIELS: No, I just have my agenda. I'm not here to shove homosexuality, bisexuality, LGBTQ down your throat.

LEMON: Yeah.

DANIELS: I just want to -- I want to tell you my truth.

LEMON: What has been the hardest part for you?

DANIELS: The hardest part of it all is just the hate, the criticisms I get from my own people. That is hard because I really just want to please our people.

LEMON: We do want our own people to like us.

DANIELS: And also, is really understanding that my vision of the world is not the vision of everybody else. I've had death threats because of that television show. Can you imagine getting death threats from a television show?

LEMON: Can you imagine getting death threats from a news program?

DANIELS: I know. That's why I love you, baby. We understand.

LEMON: When you're in the public eye, quite honestly, you are fair game. But the thing is that people forget that you're a human being. And sometimes, you forget that you're a human being, honestly, because we place so much pressure on ourselves and we put so much stock into what other people think about us.

DANIELS: "Shadowboxer." That's my directorial debut. That was with Helen Mirren and Cuba Gooding, Jr. And I was feeling myself because of "Monster's Ball" incredible reviews and "Woodsman" winning Cannes and Sundance and such. And I thought I was (bleep). And we were on the front page of the "New York Post" saying Lee Daniels has directed the worst movie of the year. I love the movie. I loved it so much.

LEMON: So then what came after that?

DANIELS: "Precious."

UNKNOWN: Nobody loves me.

DANIELS: I wasn't going to direct it because everybody said I couldn't. But I realized if I gave up that dream that there was nothing to live for. And so, I got up the courage to direct it. And thank God I did.

UNKNOWN: And I don't want you to --

LEMON: "Precious" was groundbreaking.

DANIELS: Thank you.

LEMON: Did you have something to prove with that?

DANIELS: Maybe it was proving all the haters wrong because it was in me. Everything that I'd lived was on that screen. I knew it intimately. And you might not know it, but you feel it.

LEMON: I can understand him saying, I'm not going to do this because I don't want that hurt. He tried to protect himself and then realized, okay, in order for me to move forward, I've got to do this. And he did.

DANIELS: After "Precious," I was going to do "Selma." And once I heard the FBI tapes, and once I understood who King was, I did my pass on the script. So as opposed to that, I did a movie called "The Paperboy."

LEMON: And then can we get to now --

DANIELS: "The Butler."

LEMON: "The Butler."

DANIELS: Uh-hm.

LEMON: I love that movie.

DANIELS: I know you do.

UNKNOWN: I'm Cecil Gaines.

DANIELS: That was a hard movie to make.

LEMON: Why?

DANIELS: Because it spanned so many decades.

LEMON: Yeah.

DANIELS: And it required me to be focused. And also, we were dealing with this man's life. And so, I wanted to tell it as truthful as I could. But it was sort of getting boring. So, I made the wife a drunk.

UNKNOWN: Everything you are and everything you have is because of that butler.

LEMON: What do you want your legacy to be?

DANIELS: For people to remember me as a truth teller in film. When I'm looking at a Lee Daniels' film, I know that he told it from his soul.

LEMON: Lee Daniels symbolizes the greatness that we all have within us.

[23:49:57]

Lee is the living embodiment of taking what is given, taking the hand that is dealt to you and turning it into the best thing possible. That's why I chose him as my inspiration.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LEMON (on camera): Lee Daniels, thank you for being you. I do love you. You are genius. You really are. Don't forget that. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[23:55:00]

LEMON: A closing note tonight about the loss of a friend to this show. Longtime Democratic strategist, political pundit, and former CNN colleague Bob Beckel has passed away. He was 73 years old.

On this show, Bob shared political insights and weighed in on the news of the day. He had a wicked sense of humor, and I loved our conversations. He was also a longtime commentator on Fox. He got his start decades ago working in the administration of President Jimmy Carter and went on to be the national campaign manager for former Vice President Walter Mondale.

Tonight, we send our condolences to Bob Beckel's family.

Thank you for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)