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Don Lemon Tonight

Russian Targeted Children At Train Station; Reporter Are Lost For Words; Tochka Missile Used By Russians Against Civilians; Vladimir Putin Don't Mind Sanctions; Black Woman Now Sits In The U.S. Supreme Court. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired April 08, 2022 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Plus, I'll be here next week for "THE LEAD" weekdays starting at 4 p.m. Eastern. And right back here on CNN tonight, Monday nights at 9 p.m. Eastern. DON LEMON TONIGHT starts right now. Hi, Don.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: You are a busy man, Jake Tapper and doing great work. Listen, all of this creating a really huge humanitarian crisis, what else are you hearing from Ukrainians that have been internally displaced?

TAPPER: They're -- you know, they are very frustrated, not just obviously with Putin, they're frustrated with the west. One of the women in the piece I did, one of the internal refugees Yulia (Ph), she said sanctions are not doing anything. We are dying, they are killing kids. I mean, these are, these people are aware politically what is going on. They just think that not enough is being done to stop Putin.

LEMON: Yes. Jake Tapper, we'll see you soon, be well.

TAPPER: Thanks buddy.

LEMON: This is DON LEMON TONIGHT.

Our breaking news, we have new, you got to see this. New, never before seen images tonight at the brutality, the brutal bloody attack on a train station in eastern Ukraine where thousands of desperate people were trying to escape the violence.

And I've got to warn you, what you're about to see is graphic and disturbing, but we are showing it to you so that you can bear witness to what is being done to the people of Ukraine, the mothers, fathers, children, friends, neighbors, people who never wanted this war, victims of Vladimir Putin's unprovoked invasion.

We warn you so you can prepare yourself, but really, I mean, how do you prepare yourself for this. Here is. The bodies of people outside the station, lying where they died on the bloodstained pavement. And this is really too awful to show you without burring the image here. A charred body lying on the ground, next to a destroyed car in the station parking lot. More bodies presumably gathered by rescue workers laid out on plastic sheets. A man dead surrounded by abandoned luggage.

The region's governor is saying that at least 50 people died in the assault today. Five of them children, nearly 100 taken to hospitals. All of them just trying to stay alive. President Volodymyr Zelenskyy tonight saying this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE (through translator): We expect a firm, global response to this war crime. Like the massacre in Bucha, like many other Russian war crimes, the missile strike on Kramatorsk must be one of the charges at the tribunal, which is bound to happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: This was a well-known hub where thousands of people are trying to flee. Here's a decision look on Monday, and here how it looked today after Putin's forces slaughters civilians trying to evacuate. What kind of twisted mission is this? You bomb homes, their kindergartens, their hospitals. You murdered starting people in the streets, when they try to get food. You leave their bodies in the road, where they fell, and now, when they do the only thing that they could do, run for their lives, you rain down death from the skies. This, this is graphic too, look.

So, you may not understand the words, you don't have to, to understand the terror in their voices, the incomprehension, the horror. thousands of desperate people crowded that station every single day trying to escape. The Russians knew that. And today, they blew them up.

Right away to CNN's chief international anchor, Christiane Amanpour, live for us tonight in Kyiv. Morning there.

Christiane, hello to you. This is awful. And one woman, a crowded trains station with civilian trying to get to safety. And the next, dozens massacred including children. And for what? Give us the latest, please.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: You know, Don, it really is, it really is awful and it's horrible to see again and again. And it's horrible to listen to as well. Those terrified screams. The mayor of Kramatorsk told us this morning that, you know, immediately after this, when we contact him, that for the last two weeks, this has been a well-known hub for these evacuees from the east where Russia had started its second phase of this, as it calls, big assault on the east.

And he said 8,000 people per day were crowding into that station and getting evacuated. Up to 8,000. And today, he said up to 4,000 were waiting when -- I mean, can you imagine missiles. Missiles.

[22:05:03]

Americans call them SS-21s, the Ukrainians called them Tochka-U missiles. And this what rained down on those people who as you say were just trying to get out of the war zone. Here's the report.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR (voice over): You can hear the fear and the anguish. You can see the desperate efforts to rescue civilians after an attack on this train station in the eastern city of Kramatorsk. A crowded platform hit by Russia missile strikes as people try to escape heavy fighting.

Russian forces also struck the station building itself. The head of the railway told CNN, now dozens are dead, including children. And many people remain unaccounted for. I asked Ukraine's chief of military intelligence for his reaction.

KYRYLO BUDANOV, UKRAINE'S CHIEF OF DEFENSE INTELLIGENCE (through translator): What can I say, this is another example of criminal activity of war criminal dictator Putin. It is in our case that I hope would be added to the criminal investigation against him in the international court, conducting powerful missile strikes against a civilian infrastructure during the evacuation of civilians is an act of terrorism.

AMANPOUR: In the hours and days before this attack, the station was crowded with thousands of refugees. Kramatorsk has been a hub for internally displaced people in the Donetsk region. Families desperately boarding trains to escape the Russian assault.

Now body bags and abandoned luggage are all that remains. Hundreds are wounded, a one step further from evacuation. Painted on the side of this deadly rocket where the words, "for the children," a chilling message the European Commission president tells me just strengthens her resolve to make sure Vladimir Putin fails in Ukraine.

URSULA VON DER LEYEN, PRESIDENT, EUROPEAN COMMISSION: If you look at the attack today at that train station, I was shown pictures where the shelling had written on, for our children, which means like revenge for our children. So, they are building indeed this awful narrative as if they would be returning something, a nightmare.

AMANPOUR: Russia has denied responsibility for the strike, calling it a provocation by Ukraine. But the brutality of this invasion is well documented, despite Russia's military consistently denying attacking civilians. Kramatorsk was one of the first places targeted when the Russian invasion was launched on February 24th.

ZELENSKYY: Why did they need this war against Ukraine? Why do they need to hit civilians with missiles? Why this cruelty that the world has witnessed in Bucha and other cities liberated by the Ukrainian army?

AMANPOUR: On Friday, Ukraine announced 10 humanitarian corridors, including one in the Donetsk region. But civilian casualties are increasing every hour that Russia's bombardment continues.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR (on camera): So, as I said and you saw the head of the E.U., Ursula von der Leyen was here. And she said that the allies, every time, including Americans, every time there is this horror whether it was this awful massacre at the station, now yesterday, or whether it was the terrible, terrible reveals of what happened around Kyiv, around this capital where I am when the Russians were forced back, she said all of that simply spurs the allies to make it harder and more painful for Putin, and to really sort of, you know, hasten their attempts to punish him.

But you know, clearly, it hasn't deterred him yet. And they just keeping ratcheting up those sanctions. And they keep saying that they will provide Ukraine with the kind of defense that it needs to now meet this new offensive in the east. Don?

LEMON: Let's talk a little bit more about that and be specific about what they are -- what they are doing. It's because it's one atrocity after another. How will the west respond to this? Europe has already approved five rounds of sanctions against Russia since the invasion began, I'm sure we will see more.

AMANPOUR: Yes, Don, you know, you're right. Five rounds and the fifth was announced just today. And what it's doing is basically ratcheting up the pressure on the energy sector mostly because, as you know, Russia is entirely dependent for its economy on its natural resources, so that is oil, gas, coal and the like by and large.

And Europe is now weaning itself off. It's already announced a ban on Russian coal. It is vastly reducing its dependence on Russian gas. And it's trying to fill that gap from the United States. LNG, they call it, from the United States, and this was an agreement that Ursula von der Leyen made with President Biden when they were at that NATO and E.U. summit in Brussels about two weeks ago.

[22:10:06]

But then there is oil, because apparently -- apparently, Europe spends one billion euros per day to Russia for energy. And oil is the most expensive part of that. So, they have to ween themself of Russian oil as well, which they say they are going to do.

LEMON: You know, every day, Christiane, as you're their reporting, and all of our folks who were on the ground sending more and more video back, it seems like this is producing more evidence of war crimes. Right? But the question is, will there be accountability? And it's obvious it is more evidence of war crimes.

AMANPOUR: I think there will be. I mean, I'm just going to put it out, I think there will be. Because I've covered enough of these situations to know, particularly in the most egregious instances, whether it was Bosnia and the former Yugoslavia in the 90s, Rwanda, the genocide in the 90s.

You know, there were special tribunals set up to prosecute the allegations of war crimes. It is difficult, it is long, it is painstaking, evidence has to be collected. And that takes a long time. Witnesses have to be willing to come forward, and it's not always obvious that they are usually they do, except in often, well, except if they are very scared, or often, you know, women who have been raped and the like don't want to come forward. And there are many allegations of that, here as well.

But the most difficult part of it is, essentially, proving command responsibility, that it was intentional and that it came from the top. Either that, or proving that no due concern and care was taken to avoid civilians and those kinds of targets.

However, you know, we have seen these crimes prosecuted in international forums. And whether it takes, you know, a long time or not, I believe that it will actually happen because that's what is happening right now. The ICC is involved collecting evidence, the Ukrainian prosecutor general and the infrastructure here is also looking evidence. And you know, we've seen so much of it just from reporting, from drone video, from satellites, from security video, there is just a lot of evidence these days with all the platforms available to record it.

LEMON: Our Christiane Amanpour on the ground in Kyiv for us this evening. Thank you, Christiane. I appreciate it. Please be safe. We'll see you soon.

Now I want to bring in Dalton Bennett, he is an investigative reporter for the Washington Post. And he was at the train station in the moments right after this attack. Dalton, thank you for joining us. You are OK, correct?

DALTON BENNETT, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, WASHINGTON POST: I am, I am safe.

LEMON: You arrived at the station, this train station 15 minutes after the strike. You report described a gruesome, chaotic scene. The images were so incredibly disturbing. Tell us more about what you saw.

BENNETT: Yes, Don. So, we arrived 15 minutes, we arrived to the station 15 minutes after the strike took place. And it was truly the scenes of chaos and other depravity. There were bodies that have been gathered on the side of the train station. By the time that we had arrived, we were able to make it towards that area, we had counted 20 bodies that have been gathered. They had been covered in -- they were covered in green tarps.

They're within those bodies were two children. All around in the platform were bags, personal effects, everything from children's toys to bags of food that had been gathered for the long journey ahead for the hundreds of evacuees that were in this area where the missile had strike, which struck.

It was honestly it was one of the most difficult scenes that we've ever had to report from. You just saw that there was -- there was blood pulled everywhere. There were children's toys soaked in blood, the strike actually had taken place at when it exploded. There were two areas on the train platform where large groups of people were waiting because there was a seating area.

And you saw that the benches in those specific places had been eviscerated by a shrapnel. The seats were, these evacuees once were, were just covered in blood. And around -- around those chairs all set was their bags that had been left behind, their luggage when they fled for their lives, if they did survive.

LEMON: Have you ever seen anything like this ever?

BENNETT: You know, I've worked in -- I've worked in other -- I've worked in other conflict zones in Libya and Gaza in other places, just the amount of people that were injured and killed in a single incident, I had never seen anything like this before.

[22:15:02]

Yes, I have spent the past 10 days reporting, working in an out of the eastern Ukraine's Donbas region. It is well that thousands and thousands of civilians were using this facility where heating the request of local authorities and evacuating from the region. It's just stunning.

You know, honestly, I am at a loss for words why somebody would write a message for the children and launch a rocket towards an area that they knew civilians were present. Large, large numbers of civilians were potentially present.

LEMON: I'm not sure that I even know what to say. What were -- what were witnesses saying? There were witnesses there, I'm sure, what were they telling you?

BENNETT: The people -- the people that we spoke with but, I mean, everyone just wanted to leave. What they described is first a large explosion, a large explosion and that those that were able, many packed inside of the actual train facility itself where they heard this loud explosion, and there were able to seek cover or some were knocked immediately to the ground.

After the large explosion, witnesses described a series of explosions that took place afterwards. One woman we spoke with, she was actually inside the station. The explosion occurs. It shatters the glass, launching shards into the crowd. Mostly women and children are inside of the actual train facility. She actually ran outside because she knew that her son was outside. He was in one of the areas that was hit the worst. Right?

She discovered her son on the ground, covered in human remains. A person had fallen on top of him after the initial shock wave, after the initial blast, and fortunately for him, even though he was seriously and severely injured by the shrapnel, the person that fell on top of him shielded him from the majority of the blast and he was able to survive.

She arrives outside, finds her son in this state. Can't tell really where he's injured because he is injured all over his entire body. And then begins to put a torniquet on her son's leg. She describes walking just outside, and seeing bits of body parts, limbs, legs, a person missing their head outside. Another witness that we talked to just described the screaming.

Everyone was screaming. That's all I heard was the screaming. I mean, people were truly stunned, right? It's in this situation, I mean, it's just difficult to try to get people to explain even what they saw because they lack the words really to describe it. And obviously just the chaos of the situation. Yes. It was one of the worst and most gruesome events I've ever witnessed.

LEMON: You're at a loss for words, Dalton.

BENNETT: Yes. I really struggle. Where they're reporting you know, this is a region that I've spent a lot of time in and I'm very familiar with, the violence and the brutality of this conflict. And you know, we went to the, we're at the hospital, right. So, we saw just the crush of casualties coming in were children with serious head injuries.

You know, doctors preparing -- or surgeons preparing to amputate --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Can I jump in really quickly here? Because I understand you talk -- because you mentioned that you were at the hospital where they were treating victims. I think we have a photo that we want to put up here. And that this, we see someone in a uniform carrying child and yes. Were they able to handle all the wounded?

BENNETT: The hospital was completely overrun. So, the casualties, we're talking casualties nearing at least almost 100 people. It's a small, there are two small hospitals in the city.

[22:20:00]

A lot of -- a lot of people have evacuated on top of it. So, you know, one of the hospitals that we were at we see over 40 casualties, they were treating patients that injured in the hallway. In the hallway. Their five operating rooms were filled with people -- filled with people that had been seriously, grievously injured. Suffering in catastrophic injuries from the shrapnel.

We saw basically, any available hands were helping to save these people's lives. We saw medics, military medics. We saw volunteers, nurses, and everybody doing whatever they could to save this crush of casualties.

LEMON: Yes. Dalton Bennett, reporter for the Washington Post arrived 15 minutes after the attack was on the season. Dalton, thank you. I'm sorry you had to witness this. But I mean, obviously, the real sorrow goes to the people who were affected by it, who were actually were there themselves witnessing it, and injured and those who lost their lives.

Thank you, Dalton. I appreciate it. Be well. You take care of yourself and be safe.

Russia knew that (AUDIO GAP) was packed with thousands of Ukrainian civilians trying to flee to safety. What would they target it? And why does this tell us about their military capabilities?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: It is again, a piece of the Russian brutality and the prosecution of this war, and their carelessness for trying to avoid civilian harm.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[22:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Heavy fighting underway in eastern Ukraine even as defenders brace for a broader Russian assault. But Putin's deadly invasion reaching far beyond the front lines. A horrific attack on civilians trying to flee the violence drawing international condemnation today.

Joining me now to discuss, CNN military analyst and retired air force Colonel, Cedric Leighton.

Colonel, thanks for joining. That last segment was really heavy. Boy, boy. So, let's talk about how people can defend themselves and what we're doing. The U.S. says that the weapon that killed at least 50 people in Kramatorsk was a short-range ballistic missile fired from inside the country. And the Ukrainian officials are accusing Russia of using cluster munitions.

What does this say to you about Russia's current capabilities? And what Ukraine should be prepared for next?

CEDRIC LEIGHTON, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, this is a really interesting question, Don. So, let's take a look quickly at the remains of the rocket. This is the remain -- these are the remains of an SS-21 called Tochka, basically a smaller missile that can hit targets in a fairly middle range, so somewhere between 40 to 60 miles out.

This was, as you mentioned, Don, fired from a Ukrainian territory in -- even the Russian occupied into the train station at Kramatorsk. In fact, let's to go this map instead. Excuse me, Kramatorsk. And this map tells you a little about what's going on here. Because this area was where the train station is.

This is where the Russians are going to be coming down from the north if they stay with their plan to go into Sloviansk, which is that big road junction we talked about yesterday. And also, what could happen here is if they join up from the south. So, these areas are all right in the path of what the Russians want to do.

They want this territory because it is part of the eastern area. The Donbas region that they occupied before but they wanted to occupy even more of it. And bring that line to about here. And if they do that, that will be part of their goal. Their whole mission is to take territory. They really don't care whether or not they hit civilian targets. LEMON: They don't care.

LEIGHTON: No.

LEMON: I mean, obviously this was a big hub, colonel, for evacuating people. Thousands passing through every single day. The Russians knew this. They knew it. Why would they target this location strategically with a total disregard for innocent civilians, and as you said, for the children, right? We saw all of that. Why would they do that?

Well, they would do this because they want to instill terror into the hearts and minds of the people in Ukraine. They believe that by controlling them mentally in this way, using terror as a weapon, by actually doing the things that they did with this attack at Kramatorsk and all the other things that they've been doing, whether it's you know, in the bigger sense, whether it's in Kyiv, in and around Kyiv and all the areas there.

In Kharkiv, in Kherson, and obviously in Mariupol, all of these different incidents that you see here, and ones that we haven't mentioned yet. They all indicate there's one big goal here. And that is to terrorize the Ukrainian population to eliminate as much of it as possible and to do it in a way that, you know, leaves us on the outside looking in breathless with revulsion. And that's what they're doing. This is exactly what's going on here.

This is not the first time as we know that the first attack on civilians. We've seen many. What does it say about the Russian military that they are willing to kill this many innocent people?

LEIGHTON: Well, from a modern standpoint, a modern military standpoint it shows that it's an unprofessional military. A professional military avoids civilian casualties as much as possible. Will there be mistakes? Yes. Do people make mistakes? Of course, they do.

But to deliberately target civilians is something that goes against the laws of war. It also goes against the whole premise of what needs to be done in a conflict. You go after military targets. You want to win hearts and minds. They're doing the exact opposite. And that is, that is a real problem not only for the Ukrainians directly but it's also going to be a problem for the Russians if they get to occupy any of these territories here.

LEMON: Colonel, thanks as always. I appreciate it.

LEIGHTON: You bet, Don. Absolutely.

[22:30:04]

LEMON: So, the train station attack showing the fighting in the east is intensifying. But Russian forces have face big losses and now we're learning that they're trying to recruit tens of thousands of new troops.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON: The Russian missile strike at the station, the train station

in Kramatorsk today leaving at least 50 civilians dead. The latest brutal attack on Ukraine by Vladimir Putin.

[22:35:06]

Joining me now to discuss this, the former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine, that is William Taylor. Ambassador, I appreciate you joining us and to discuss what these images are coming in and what has happening.

We are seeing all of this madness out of the Kramatorsk. It's heartbreaking. President Zelenskyy is warning that this is going to get worse. What does it tell you that Russia is continuing to target civilians in all of this?

WILLIAM TAYLOR, FORMER UNITED STATES AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: Don, it is exactly as you said, it is horrible, it's unbelievable. It just, you cannot look at it. It is for this kind of, this kind of massacre, there are no words for it. There are no words for it. And you're right, this does suggest that the Russians are desperate.

They know they are losing on the ground. Ukrainian military has pushed the Russians out of Kyiv, out of the country, pushed the Russians back into Belarus and into Russia. So, the ground war, the Ukrainians are doing great and the Russians are doing terribly.

The Russian units are now beaten up. They are having to withdraw back into Belarus, to repair and refit and regroup. Whereas, whereas there Ukrainians are riding high. They are, the morale is high. Volunteers are being turned away. They can't -- they can't keep up with the number of people signing up to join the army. So, they just couldn't be more different, Don.

LEMON: Yes. Listen, let's be realistic here. Yes, everything you said is true. But the Ukrainians are still being bombardment. You are still hearing, you know, what happened at Kramatorsk is still happening. And if you look at Mariupol and Chernihiv and all of this Bucha, all of these places, people are still dying by the hundreds and thousands.

So, yes, they are pushing them back, but Russia is slowly decimating their country. At what point is -- I think, OK, so my question is, at this point, is direct -- a direct involvement by NATO and by the U.S., by the west, is it inevitable? Because it appears that way.

TAYLOR: Don, of course we are directly involved. We haven't gone across the line. We don't have soldiers on the ground or pilots in the air. But we have all of our weapons. We are taking everything out of our stockpile and giving it to the Ukrainians. You are exactly right. Ukrainians are fighting our fight. They are fighting the Russians. In the first instance, for themselves, but also for Europe and for us. So, we are doing -- we are engaged.

We don't have, you know, it used to be the 82nd Airborne, they're there in Poland, they're not -- they're not across the border. So, and I'm sure they are watching really close at what's going on. So, you are right to be frustrated. And you're right to be angry. We

are all angry. We are all discussed that this is what the Russians are doing.

LEMON: Just real quickly, the negotiations, how do you -- how does one go to a negotiating table, even you know, start to talk to people who are doing this, how does that end?

TAYLOR: It doesn't happen. There is nothing that the Ukrainians can get from the Russians. The Ukrainians have been serious, the Ukrainians have tried, the Russian have come and lied. The Russians have not been straightforward. They haven't been able to negotiate. So, there is no real negotiation.

And as you say, trying to negotiate with people who do this, whose leaders whose military do this, it doesn't matter that they weren't, that these diplomats weren't -- these are the Russians that they are representing Russia. So, it is hard to imagine that short of a cease- fire, short of a real cease-fire, that there are any negotiation that can take place.

LEMON: Ambassador, thank you. I appreciate it. We'll see you soon.

TAYLOR: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Ukraine's president calling on the E.U. to do more to sanction Moscow as Europe remains hooked on Russian gas. Are those countries enabling Putin? Paul Krugman is here, next.

[22:40:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy delivering a message to the European Union today, saying that their sanctions against Russia are still not enough. This week the European parliament voted on a ban on all Russian energy imports but it is nonbinding. And it seems like Russian gas which is critical to Germany and many other European countries, well that is off the table for now.

Joining me now is the New York Times columnist and Nobel Laureate, Paul Krugman. Thank you -- thank you so much for joining us, Paul. We appreciate it.

Europe is struggling with competing demands. They have to push back against Russian aggression. But at the same time, they are pouring money into Russia's coffers for their own critical energy needs. Is that counterproductive if the goal is hitting Russia where it hurts?

PAUL KRUGMAN, COLUMNIST, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Yes, it is. At this point, we have to say that Putin is not going to stop this until he is absolutely forced to or until the Russians one way or another get rid of him. And what makes it possible for Russia to continue this war is the money it gets from selling energy to Europe.

[22:45:04] And there are other things out there, but basically it boils down to that. And the critical point there is natural gas sales to Germany. And if the Germans -- it's mostly Germany is the issue. The Germans are not willing to take the -- you know, take the hit from cutting off those sales, then this goes on and on and on.

LEMON: I mean, you would think like the atrocities that's being -- that's happening on the Ukrainian people, that people would want to somehow compromise, or especially in this situation, in Germany of all places considering its history.

KRUGMAN: Yes, especially considering there is more recent history as well. That we had a --- there was a debt crisis in Europe at decade ago. And the Germans were right up there moralizing, shaking their finger at Greece and Spain, and Portugal, and saying you have been irresponsible and you need to pay the price of your past irresponsibility.

Well, Germany, irresponsibly made itself dependent on Russian gas. We -- the people have been warning them about that dependency really for 40 years. I mean, I was in meetings, I spent a brief time in U.S. government in the 80s, people were warning about it back then. So, now the Germans are saying, no, we cannot afford to take that hit.

Well, you know, at some point, what about all of that morality that you said other countries had to obey. So, no, this is, I mean, it's not easy, but it's not impossible. You know, it's a modern economy with a lot of flexibility. The Germans can do this if they're willing to.

LEMON: Listen, you're right about it. You have a new piece that's titled how Germany became Putin's enabler. And you talk about the very thing that you just discussed. German officials say cutting off Russian gas would be catastrophic for their economy. You say that is an exaggeration.

KRUGMAN: Yes. I mean, there have been multiple analyses. There have been sort of more mathematical economic analyses including largely by German economists. There have been, sort of, point by point what we can do to replace or do without the Russian gas in places like the Brical Institute in Brussels. These have all found that, yes, this is painful. This would hurt. But it would not crash the economy. It would do nothing like the kind of suffering that was imposed on say, Greece when Germany demanded austerity policies.

You know, natural gas is a really important thing, but it's 55 percent of German gas comes from Russia, they can do without that. It will hurt, but there are a lot of ways in which you can substitute a way in which you can make do. And it's going to take some -- some pain -- you know, significant pain but it can be done. And you know, mass murder seems to be something that ought to be responded to by being to make a few sacrifices.

LEMON: Right on. I'm wondering how this next thing happen. Because the ruble has regained most of its losses, Paul. How is that possible with all of the international sanctions aimed at putting pressure on Russia's economy?

KRUGMAN: Well, part of the answer is that the money is still flowing in. So, although the Russians have been cut off from a lot of stuff, and have been cut off from a lot of international banking, there is still all that money flowing in for oil and especially gas.

So, they do have hard currency, basically dollars and euros coming in that they can use. And they've also imposed a lot of restrictions. It is very hard for Russians to take their money out of the country. It's very hard, essentially impossible for foreign investors to take their money out of the country.

So, the Russians have done emergency measures which are painful but not enough to bring them to -- not enough to lead to collapse. So, as long as those exports of fossil fuels are unimpeded, then Russia has a nasty but manageable problem. And the job of everybody, I think we can talk about the free world again, right, Don, this is really the free world against Vladimir Putin. And it's the free world isn't willing to take a few sacrifices, then we are not doing our job.

LEMON: Paul Krugman, thank you so much, I appreciate it.

KRUGMAN: Thank you.

LEMON: Celebrating a moment of real change, Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson at the White House, marking her family's journey from living under the segregation -- under segregation to her Supreme Court appointment.

[22:55:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: The White House celebrating Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson's historic confirmation to the Supreme Court. Here's what Judge Jackson said about why this moment matters.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KETANJI BROWN JACKSON, U.S. SUPREME COURT JUSTICE: It has taken 232 years and 115 prior appointments for a Black woman to be selected to serve on the Supreme Court of the United States.

(APPLAUSE)

JACKSON: But we've made it.

(APPLAUSE)

JACKSON: We've made it, all of us, all of us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Judge Jackson also recognizing all those who helped her achieve something she says her grandparents could never have imagined.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: No one does this on their own. The path was cleared for me so that I might rise to this occasion.

[22:54:56]

And in the poetic words of Dr. Maya Angelou, I do so now while bringing the gifts my ancestors gave.

(APPLAUSE)

JACKSON: I -- I am the dream and the hope of the slave. I strongly believe that this is a moment in which all Americans can take great pride. We have come a long way toward perfecting our union. In my family, it took just one generation to go from segregation to the Supreme Court of the United States.

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LEMON: All right. Judge Jackson will replace Justice Stephen Breyer when he retired from the highest court this summer. Congratulations.

In Ukraine, outrage growing over a Russian attack on a train station where civilians were trying to flee. The latest on the ground, that's next.

Plus, CNN's Frederik Pleitgen goes to the Chernobyl plant where invading Russian soldiers may have been exposed to dangerous radiation.

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