Return to Transcripts main page

Don Lemon Tonight

Supreme Court Draft Opinion Would Overturn Roe v. Wade; CNN Projects J.D. Vance Wins Ohio GOP Senate Primary; Missile Strikes Hit Ukrainian Power Stations In Lviv; The Potential Medical Consequences Of Overturning Roe v. Wade. Aired 11p-12a ET

Aired May 03, 2022 - 23:00   ET




DON LEMON, CNN HOST: This is DON LEMON TONIGHT. A nation at odds over abortion. The explosive leak of the Supreme Court draft opinion that would strike down Roe v. Wade equivalent of a political and social earthquake shaking America and sparking nationwide protest.

And breaking news, primary night in Ohio. CNN is rejecting that candidate J.D. Vance, who has the backing of the former president, wins the crucial republican primary race for the U.S. Senate in a test of Trump's political influence.

But first is CNN's Paula Reid with the very latest on what this draft opinion means for the future of abortion rights in this country.



PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The lead draft sparking protests across the country.

CROWD: The people, united, will never be defeated.

REID (voice-over): And prompting questions. Chief Justice John Roberts --

UNKNOWN (voice-over): Do you plan to investigate the leak?

REID (voice-over): -- seen here leaving his home Tuesday, issued a statement calling the leak an egregious breach. He has directed the marshal of the court to investigate.

The court confirms the draft is authentic, but cautioned it does not represent a decision or position of any member on the issues in the case.

The nearly 100-page opinion says a majority of justices are prepared to uphold a Mississippi law that would ban abortion after 15 weeks and overturn Roe v. Wade, which established a right to abortion 50 years ago, leaving it to individual states to determine abortion's legality. Justice Samuel Alito, author of the draft, stating there is no inherent right to an abortion, writing, the Constitution makes no reference to abortion and no such right is implicitly protected by any constitutional provision. Alito says Roe was egregiously wrong from the start and that its reasoning was exceptionally weak and the decision has had damaging consequences.

The opinion is not expected to be published until late next month and could still be modified as a draft opinion circulate and justices can change their vote.

Sources tell CNN Roberts did not want to completely overturn Roe. It appears Alito was joined in his majority by justices Clarence Thomas, Brett Kavanaugh, Neil Gorsuch, and Amy Coney Barrett, even though Kavanaugh and Gorsuch called Roe the law of the land during their confirmation hearings.


NEIL GORSUCH, ASSOCIATE JUSTICE OF THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES: That's the law of the land. I accept the law of the land, senator, yes.

REID (voice-over): Senator Susan Collins, who voted in support of Gorsuch and Kavanaugh, said today in a statement the draft opinion was completely inconsistent with what Justice Gorsuch and Justice Kavanaugh said in their hearings and in our meetings in my office.

President Biden called the draft decision radical and echoed concern that this decision could serve as a template for limiting other individual rights previously recognized by the courts like same-sex marriage --


REID (voice-over): -- and access to contraception.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: If the rationale of the decision as released were to be sustained, a whole range of rights are in question.

REID (voice-over): But in the wake of this draft opinion, Democrats are vowing to fight to protect abortion rights.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): It will go down as an abomination. One of the worst, most damaging decisions in modern history.

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): We could pass a law to protect every woman's right to an abortion, and we should do that.

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): If this turns out to be the opinion of the court in it's issued, it could have a major impact on the outcome of this election.

REID (voice-over): Republicans are condemning the leak itself.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): Whoever committed this lawless act knew exactly what it could bring about.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): Whoever did this leak should be prosecuted and should go to jail for a very long time. This has shaken the independence and the ability of the judiciary to function.

REID (on camera): What we don't know right now is whether any of these justices will have changed their vote or if the contours of this draft opinion will have changed. Now, the super majority of conservatives on the Supreme Court have made it clear they are open to overturning Roe but will likely have to wait until late next month when a final pinion is published to know if that actually happened. Don?


LEMON: All right. Paula, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

I want to bring in now the Democratic governor of Colorado, Jared Polis. Governor, thank you for joining. I really appreciate. So, let's talk about what you have done. You signed a bill into law -- this was last month -- that codifies a right to an abortion in your state.


But there are more than 20 states that will likely or certainly ban abortion if the Supreme Court overturns Roe, including Utah, Wyoming, Oklahoma that border your state. Is Colorado prepared from an influx of women from these states seeking safe and legal abortions?

GOV. JARED POLIS (D-CO): You know, frankly Don, like so many Americans, I'm still in shock with this. It wasn't expected. I think we all saw it going this way nationally, which is why Colorado did protect the Roe v. Wade precedent in state law. We protect women here.

What we're seeing, Don, in other states is very scary. I mean, Republicans are obsessed with taking away freedoms like in Florida, the vigilantism against women exercising their choice, the "don't say gay" laws, preventing people from even using those words in Florida schools.

This is scary. We have another path in Colorado. We respect the right to choose. It is in our law. I'm frankly worried about that freedom being evaporated in other parts of the country.

LEMON: Speaking of worrying, are you concerned that other states will come after Coloradans who are helping people to obtain an abortion?

POLIS: You know, there is no doubt and, you know, I'm not old enough, of course, to remember pre-1974 Roe v. Wade, but I've heard from my parents and grandparents and certainly looked at the history. It is a dangerous time for women. Back-alley abortions, high casualty rates, high complication rates.

It turns something that -- a very difficult decision that women face into something that was fundamentally dangerous for their lives and even for the lives of their loved ones.

So, you know, this is always a difficult decision for anybody, but it's one that the government does not have a place at the table. It is between a woman, her faith, her medical provider, and the government should simply not interfere.

LEMON: You mentioned same-sex marriage and are responsible for this. But Obergefell, Jim Obergefell, the man whose case led the Supreme Court to legalize same-sex marriage, told CNN today that Justice Alito's draft opinion scares the daylights out of him. Do you share those fears?

POLIS: You know, I grew up like you, Don, with this wonderful vision of the Supreme Court expanding our freedom, right? We read about Brown versus Board of Education, Roe v. Wade, all of these -- and now, of course, relive the history of Obergefell. I was at the steps of the Supreme Court when that decision came out. What a joyous moment. I was a member of Congress and got to see that come down.

Because of these far-right republican appointments stacking the court, I really worry that we are now in an era where our freedoms will erode rather than be expanded. That is a scary thing for the country and it is one, frankly, we need to push back against both at the national level and at the state level.

LEMON: Listen. We were reporting this last night and even for a portion of today, we are being very cautious about whether this was -- this draft is actually real or not. But a Supreme Court spokesperson says this draft by Justice Alito is authentic, but it doesn't represent the final decision of any of the members or any member of the court. Do you think there could be a different outcome once the decision is actually issued?

POLIS: Look, I'm always hopeful, though. But I think what it shows, Don, is when we had these confirmation fights, Kavanaugh, Barry (ph) -- I mean, this is real. This is why the president of the United States matters and who they appoint. This is why the United States Senate matters and who they confirm for the Supreme court.

I think we might be surprised and still in shock about the speed with which this is happening, but I don't think any of us had to roll over our eyes that this wasn't the long-term agenda of Republican Party to strip away and erode our freedoms as Americans.

LEMON: Yeah. Not surprised it happened but that it happened so quickly. Thank you, governor. I appreciate -- appreciate your time. Thanks so much.

I want to bring in now CNN political commentators Alice Stewart and Ana Navarro. Thank you both for joining this evening. Really appreciate it. Alice, if the decision comes down as a draft opinion suggests -- that's been the endgame for conservative politics for decades now.

You and I have had so many discussions on this program about that is why people -- that is why folks stuck with Trump, right, even though they hated all the other stuff. That's why they stuck with him, because of this. Does this feel like a victory to you?

ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR SENATOR TED CRUZ: It does to me, Don. And you're right, we've had this conversation many times. I, like many social conservatives, have fought for this day for many years, to see the potential overturning of Roe v. Wade, because we support and protect the sanctity of life and protecting the life of the unborn.

And this is truly a day for social conservatives to celebrate this victory. And what we have been doing is fighting for justices that look to what is truly interpreted in the Constitution. That is exactly what has happened here.

In this draft opinion, Alito says, in the Constitution, it makes no reference to abortion. It also says that Roe is egregiously wrong. This is what we want.


And that is important, that Republicans focus on this aspect and taking the important issue of abortion and protecting life out of the hands of nine unelected justices putting it back in the hands of the states.

And that is what is going to happen, hopefully, if this opinion comes forth as it is written and as this draft is positioned, because we need to turn this back to the states. We have many states that have bans already in place that would immediately be enacted if this Roe v. Wade were to be overturned.

But as you mentioned, Don, there are many states that have protections for abortion. So, this is going to be a state-by-state decision once this official ruling is made. And that is the beauty of our democracy. It's not to have this done at the federal level, but at the state level, where it is most impactful to the people of this country.

LEMON: Ana, I want to -- I want you to weigh in. I'm going to pose a question to you and then you can tell me how you feel because I know you want to respond to her as well.

Two key GOP senators are not pleased with the draft opinion. Susan Collins is saying the decision would be completely inconsistent with what Justice Gorsuch and Justice Kavanaugh said in their hearings and meetings in her office.

Senator Lisa Murkowski told reporters that, it was not the direction that I believed that the court would take. Did they bet wrong when they supported these justices?

ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I got only one thing to say to Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins. Girls, you got played. They absolutely did get played. They might have been told one thing in their office. Certainly, some of these justices testified to something completely different during the confirmation hearings. And then now, we see that they intend to vote a very different way. So, either they perjured themselves when they were under oath in those confirmation hearings. They lied to those senators in their face in their offices. And Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski who should know better got played. They got absolutely played.

And, you know, to what Alice first responded regarding whether this -- you know, whether conservatives should be celebrating, frankly, Alice is the only voice I have heard on TV today actually embracing this and celebrating it and celebrating the substance of it, because most Republicans and conservatives that I've heard on TV and that I've heard responding to this are laser-focused on the leak, the leak, the leak, the leak, because they know that the majority, the overwhelming majority of the country wanted Roe v. Wade to be sought off as established law to be upheld.

So, they are going against the overwhelming majority of the country. And they know that got political consequences. It's one of these cases where the dog finally caught the car. And now you have to live with those political consequences. They understand the storm, the outrage, the Category 5 hurricane that has been unleashed in America for years, for decades.

LEMON: Ana, let me ask you a question. Let me ask you a question. Ana, you are a Republican. Both of you are Republican members of the Republican Party.

NAVARRO: Uh-hmm.

LEMON: If you -- you have advised and consulted Republicans in races. So, what would your advice -- what is your advice to folks who are running? What impact do you think this is going to have on races?

NAVARRO: Well, listen, I didn't vote for Donald Trump, so (INAUDIBLE) is not on me. As you know, I didn't vote for Donald Trump and I will never vote for Donald Trump or any of his minions.

I think that it is about expanding freedom. I think the core of Roe v. Wade, the core of the abortion pro-life issue really lies on religious values. Let's come to terms with that and let's say it out loud.

And I am a Catholic. Not a very good one, but a Catholic nonetheless. And I don't want my beliefs imposed on any other American woman. So, I want to follow my beliefs for myself. But that doesn't mean everybody else has got to live by my beliefs.

LEMON: Okay. Okay.

NAVARRO: And of course, at the core of this -- and it is wrong because we live in a country where there should be a separation of church and state.

LEMON: Okay. I want Alice to weigh in. Alice, with that, why is there such a focus on the leak and not the substance and the decision? And why aren't people -- to Ana's point, it's true. You know, I've spoken to my Republican friends and colleagues last night on this program and no one is really celebrating it. So, what's going on here? Why the focus on the leak?

STEWART: Oh, the leak is really not a matter of who and how this was leaked. But why? Why was this leaked at this time? And the concern is, and some of it is legitimate, is that this was done as a way for Democrats to focus on a really unifying issue like abortion and like the pro-life issue to galvanize their voters because let's face it --

LEMON: What if a Republican leaked it, though?

STEWART: Well, we will find out.


Hopefully, we will find out and soon because the reality is, from a political standpoint, taking the legal aspect out from a political standpoint, Democrats do not have a lot to run on right now with the economy, with jobs, with crime, with the border, with foreign policy. That is not a good issue to galvanize voters heading into the general election in November.

LEMON: Okay. Let me ask you --

STEWART: This issue with abortion rights, that will turn out Democratic voters, but they also have --

LEMON: That's what I want to ask you.

STEWART: -- to remember, that will -- it will do the same for pro- life.

LEMON: Even though you're celebrating, even though you're celebrating, are you concerned about it galvanizing and really firing up Democratic voters, inspiring them to go to the polls?

STEWART: It could have a double-edged sword. While it does, it would motivate pro-abortion or those that support abortion rights. Look, Republicans have been uniting voters around the pro-life issue for decades. We can pull the evangelical groups together, pull these voters together like we have done, which got us to this point in the first place, and turn these voters out in the general election.

But there is nothing more that many view that Democrats would like to see more than to have a focus on this abortion issue than what we're seeing in the economy. That is why there are such a focus on the leak.

LEMON: That is why --

NAVARRO: But you know what the ironic part --

LEMON: Ana, quick, quick, quick, please.

NAVARRO: Republicans have daughters, young daughters, and mistresses that get pregnant, too. And how many Republican legislators have we heard about, in Congress, some of them, who had to leave their jobs because we learned that they wanted their mistresses to get abortions? So, this is one of these causes, one of these issues. Well, now, that they got what they want to, what they wanted, they may regret it. They may be saying to themselves, oh, holy Lord, we got what we wanted. Now, what? Now what, because it's the entire -- sometimes, there are things that are better as talking points --

LEMON: Yeah.

NAVARRO: -- than they are as reality. (INAUDIBLE), you know, who is consistent. Most of them, I think, are swallowing hard at that thought. Let's make bets on the leak, whether conservative or a Democrat (INAUDIBLE).

LEMON: We don't know.

NAVARRO: I think it could play (ph).

LEMON: Yeah. That's why I asked the question. We don't know. We don't know. We don't know.

NAVARRO: We don't know.

LEMON: Yeah. Ana, Alice, thank you both. I appreciate it. I will see you both --

STEWART: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: I enjoyed the conversation. Thank you very much.

STEWART: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: Thanks. CNN projects J.D. Vance will win the GOP primary for Senate in Ohio. What does that tell us about the former president's hold on his party?




LEMON: CNN projects that Trump-endorsed J.D. Vance will win the republican Senate primary in Ohio on the first multistate primary election night of the year.

And so, I want to bring in now CNN political commentator and former Pennsylvania Republican Congressman Charlie Dent. I'm so excited to get you trip in over my words.


LEMON: Charlie, good evening to you. CNN projecting J.D. Vance. What's the takeaway for Republicans here?

CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, FORMER PENNSYLVANIA REPRESENTATIVE: Clearly, the Trump endorsement mattered in the state of Ohio when Vance had been trailing to Mandel and then the endorsement certainly gave Vance a lift.

But, you know, I think the real test is going to come over the next few weeks in the battleground states of North Carolina, Pennsylvania, and Georgia, especially Pennsylvania and Georgia where Trump has endorsed Dr. Oz. It is unclear how that race is going to finish.

It looks like Trump's endorsed candidate in Georgia, the former senator, Perdue, is likely to lose to the incumbent governor, Kemp. And in North Carolina, Ted Budd, the House member has been endorsed. And that is a close race as well over McCrory.

So -- and it should be noted, too, Trump has endorsed a lot of Republican so far in this 2022 cycle, but many of them are incumbents who are going to win, anyway. So, his numbers look good, but in these open seats where this lot of action in the case of Governor Kemp, it is not so sure what the outcome will be.

LEMON: Look, we often do that right, right? Are we putting too much stalk in this one race?

DENT: I think so. I think Trump will -- I think he will win some of these races and will probably lose some of these races. He already unendorsed his candidate in Alabama, Mo Brooks, because he wasn't doing well in the polls. He endorsed him and walked away from him. So, I guess --

LEMON: Shocking.

DENT: Yeah. You can bully.

LEMON: Yeah.

DENT: So, I just say he has endorsed a lot of people in Indiana and Ohio. Who are going to win? So, okay, his numbers look better, but in these real competitive races, keep a close eye.

I really think this Pennsylvania race, I haven't seen the same kind of lift, say for Dr. Oz, in Pennsylvania that Vance has received so far. That race, that primary election is on May 17, but we will see what can happen over two weeks. That can go the other way.

LEMON: I think Oz is kind of -- I mean, he's a known quantity, right? People have an idea of who he is on television.

DENT: Right.

LEMON: That may be good or bad. As to J.D. Vance, it's a different level of celebrity there. There are people in the party that could do well on a national ticket like Governor DeSantis. But, I mean, will results like tonight help keep other challengers to Trump on the five months, you think?

DENT: Yeah, I think it probably does, yeah. Look, if trump decides he's going to run again, he's going to freeze out a lot of people from the field. I would be shocked to see how many would actually challenge him in a primary, at least to those who have been loyal to him up to this point. Now, maybe someone like Governor Hogan, he would run regardless.

But by and large, I would have to think that Trump, you know, feels empowered with his endorsement and victory tonight of J.D. Vance.


Like I said, watch Georgia, watch Pennsylvania, watch North Carolina. This is just one night. We got a few big races to go.

LEMON: Right on. In your recent CNN opinion piece, fear is destroying the GOP from inside out, you mentioned that if more good Republicans speak out against extremism, the more likely Trump's grip on the Republican Party can be broken.

I mean, any sign the Republicans are finding their courage? Again, we have been discussing -- I've been saying this. We've been this for a long time. Anybody finding their courage now, any signs of it?

DENT: Regrettably, not enough. I mean, I've always said, you know, if enough people speak up and they yell and scream and they create a narrative, you know, Trump can't fight with everybody. He can't beat everybody. They know that.

And my bigger fear is by not speaking up, the more decent members who have been quiet and fearful are empowering the fringe because those fringe elements, they're never shy about making incendiary, outrageous comments that they feel developed their brand. And so, they go unanswered.

Also, same thing with Trump with the big lie about the election in 2020. You know, by not answering that. That's why answering that claim of his, that false claim, that's why so many people believe it, because there hasn't been enough pushback from credible Republicans. That's the problem.

And as long as there's too much silence out there and fear, I'm afraid we're going to get more Trump and Trumpism.

LEMON: Charlie Dent, thank you, sir. I appreciate it.

DENT: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: Firefighters in Lviv battling a blaze at a power station after missile strikes on the city in Western Ukraine. CNN is in Lviv. We are going to take you there, next.




LEMON: Russia launching a new series of airstrikes across Ukraine today, attacking rail lines in the western and central parts of the country and striking Lviv, causing fires and power outages. CNN's Isa Soares is live for us. It is exactly Wednesday morning now, early Wednesday morning. Thank you very much, Isa, for that. Isa, multiple Russian missiles striking the western city of Lviv, leaving these large areas with no power and missile attacks across several regions targeting power and train infrastructures. What is going on there?

ISA SOARES, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: A very good morning to you, Don. Last night, what we did see was several missile attacks right across Ukraine, including here where I am in Lviv. Actually, that video that you are looking at, that was shot by me as we came over to the top of the building to capture. We had two missiles flew over the south and west Ukrainian city of Vinnytsia, but these apparently, we've been told, have been shot down.

Another cruise missile which was reportedly on its way, this is what officials are saying, on its way to Kyiv, was also shot down by Ukraine's air defenses.

Here in Lviv, as you saw in that smoke which, you know, as you well know, Don, it is relatively safe and has been a refuge for many in Lviv, my team and I heard several blasts followed by large fumes of smoke from this vantage point. It also led that missile strike you're looking at in Lviv led to causing a fire at a large electrical substation.

In terms of what we've been told by officials, we've been told that three power substations have been damaged. As a result, much of the city, in fact, was left in the dark. Power is back up again.

We also heard from the chairman of the Ukrainian railways who says that Russian missiles have struck six locations and the damage, he says, to the infrastructure was severe.

Yet again, what we are seeing, Don, is Russia targeting the transport of military equipment into Ukraine, really threatening the shipments of weapons and their routes, which is something they have been doing more and more recently, Don.

LEMON: Isa, more than 100 civilians evacuated in the Azovstal steel plant in Mariupol --


LEMON: -- have arrive safely in Zaporizhzhia. But many civilians are still trapped in the plant. How dire is the situation?

SOARES: It is still pretty dire. Look, we have seen a breakthrough, Don. That is clear, as you can see for these images. But for some of the civilians, it is still a wait and see situation. We saw many arriving yesterday in Zaporizhzhia, as you can see.

And those getting out have been sharing some truly harrowing stories. One lady who was inside the Azovstal steel plant, Don, she was there inside for two months with her family. She told our team on the ground, Nick Paton Walsh, I never thought the earth could shake like that. It did not just shake, the bunker jumped, she said, and trembled. Absolutely terrifying, of course, for the women and children who, by the way, many are still inside and facing constant shelling by Russia.

Now, President Zelenskyy said tonight that 156 people were able to get out of the steel plant as well as the surrounding areas, helped, of course, by the evacuation work by the U.N. and the Red Cross.

I can tell you that we are expecting for humanitarian corridors from the city of Mariupol to Zaporizhzhia today. We will keep an eye on that. We've been here before, right? Promises made by Russia then being broken and followed by hostilities.

If it goes ahead, it will be, of course, a glimmer of hope for the hundred thousand of people who have sheltering across the city looking for that safe passage. Still no word, though, on what it would mean for those still inside the Azovstal steel plant. Don?

LEMON: Isa Soares, thank you for your reporting. We appreciate that.

Protests across the country in the wake of that Supreme Court draft opinion that would overturn Roe v. Wade.


What will it mean for the future?


LEMON: Protests breaking out across the country in the wake of a stunning draft opinion that would spell the end of Roe v. Wade.

Joining me now, Areva Martin, a CNL legal analyst, and Kim Wehle, the professor of law at the University of Baltimore School of Law and the author of the upcoming book, "How to Think Like a Lawyer."


Good evening to both of you. Good to see you.

Kim, I'm going to start with you. You say this leaked draft opinion takes us back to 1791. Explain what you mean by that.

KIM WEHLE, PROFESSOR OF LAW, UNIVERSITY OF BALTIMORE SCHOOL OF LAW: Well, 1791 was when the bill of rights was enacted. 1868 is the 14th Amendment which contains the Due Process Clause.

Essentially, Justice Alito in this draft opinion is saying, listen, two things. Number one, if there is nothing explicitly in the Constitution about abortion, it is not necessarily protected right. They talk about that more. There are lots of things that are explicit in the Constitution which (INAUDIBLE) lots of constitutional rights.

Number two, he says, and if it is not in the Constitution, we are going to look to history and tradition. We are going to get back in the time machine and go back to when women had even fewer rights than they have as of this decision in June, that women could not own property, could not legally be raped by a spouse, did not have access to their own children in a divorce, couldn't vote.

This is the metric that this conservative majority seems to be adherent to going forward. And it is a very scary thought, Don, because there is just a whiff of misogyny that floats throughout this draft opinion that has no parallel in other area of the law. There is no other context in which one human being has to potentially sacrifice their life for someone else because the state is forcing you to do that.

That is what I mean when I say we are talking about rolling back rights and aggrandizing the power of government, not the other way around, which has been the trajectory of this country since its founding. That is a good thing.

LEMON: Areva, you are shaking your head, especially when it comes to the whiff of misogyny part. Why is that?

AREVA MARTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Yeah. Thank you for saying that, professor. It is a nice and kind word. I think this is the ultimate destructive and insidious display a patriarchy. One of the most destructive and insidious display of patriarchy. One of the most destructive insidious displays that we've ever seen.

We cannot identify, name, call out, one opinion by the Supreme Court or any Supreme Court that regulates men's bodies. Yet, this court, four men, decided that they had the right to tell women what to do with respect to their reproductive health. It is just shocking, not all that surprising, Don, because we know --

LEMON: There is a woman in there.

MARTIN: There is a woman in there, but there are four men, as a part of this five conservative bloc, who are making this decision. And it is really shocking but not surprising, given what we have seen by Republicans, this concerted effort that they have been involved in for the last several decades, to roll back the rights.

And this is not the end. In many ways, I see this as the beginning. As the professor said, there are other rights at stake here. So, this is not just about women. Women should not be the only demographic that is shocked and appalled by this draft decision. Men as well because things like gay marriage, things like the right to privacy, right to contraceptives, there are so many other rights that are at stake if this opinion becomes a final decision.

LEMON: Kim, do you believe that? We've been hearing a lot about same- sex marriage and other things. Do you think that this will go beyond just Roe v. Wade and Casey?

WEHLE: Listen, Don, there is no legitimate limiting principle in this decision. That is, Justice Alito admits that this is all of the piece because it is all grounded in the Due Process Clause. None of this is expressed. It is not just gay marriage. It is the ability to marry someone of another race. (INAUDIBLE) to not be forcibly sterilized by the government. That is not in the Constitution. The ability to decide on how to raise your children, the sanctity of family life, none of that is in the Constitution itself.

And Justice Alito says, well, you know, this is separate and special because it deals with an unborn life. Well, under the Eighth Amendment, the Supreme Court has held that government can kill people. So, that is not a limiting principle in other parts of the Constitution.

The court then says, well, rational basis. That just means if you can throw the spaghetti on the wall and come up with some kind of justification for a law, it is a good law. There is no limiting principle here other than what these five people decide is the best thing in their subjective views or ideological views.

Keep in mind as well that these are the same people that are not pro- contraception, this is the same party that does not want to see paid family leave. Where does this leave childbearing people in America?


You can have an abortion, but we are not going to allow you -- we are going to restrict access to contraception, we are going to make it too expensive, and we are not going to make it available and able for you to take care of yourself and your children once you actually have a baby.

So, this just isn't intellectually honest across the board. It is very disturbing. People need to get out and participate in the electoral process and vote. Only eight percent of Americans support reversal Roe v. Wade. Our voting system is broken. That is where Justice Alito sends us. I think this is a call to arms.

LEMON: Okay.

WEHLE: Let's show these people that we are going to take back our individual rights because I agree with our other guests, this could be a cascade of overbearing, bullying government and the reversal of rights that we hold dear and we just take for granted. It is very serious stuff.

LEMON: Areva, I'll give you the final words because I know you want to weigh in.

MARTIN: Yeah. There are so many things wrong with this decision, Don, and the fact that women -- we know women. We have to call our own selves out because women are guilty for electing the very people who have passed some of the state laws.

We saw Susan Collins come out today and say that she felt deceived by Brett Kavanaugh, who went to her office and told her that he was going to respect the precedent of Roe v. Wade. He said that during the confirmation hearing. But I have to question how really disturbed was Susan Collins because Brett Kavanaugh had a history of being a part of the federalist society. We know that that was a litmus test for conservative justice being appointed to the Supreme Court, that they would roll back the rights under Roe v. Wade.

So, when people show us who they are, we must believe who they are. And these individuals on this court, all five of them that are making this decision, have shown us who they are. So, we can't continue to support them both but then affirm them once they have established their track record.

So, it is not just voting. This is voting for those people who you know will protect the rights of women and rejecting those who have a history of not protecting those rights despite the lies they may tell you as they stare in your face asking you for a job.

LEMON: All right. Areva, Kim, thank you both. I appreciate it.

The potential medical consequences of the Supreme Court's draft ruling, that is next.




LEMON: The explosive leak of the Supreme Court draft opinion that would overturn Roe v. Wade sparking outrage across the country. a constitutional right that has been in place for nearly 50 years may be lost and that could have major ramifications for women's health.

There are so much to discuss. I want to bring in now Dr. Richina Bicette-McCain. She is an emergency medicine physician and medical director at the McNair Campus Emergency Department. We are so happy to have you on. Thank you so much for joining us once again.

So, doctor, Supreme Court decision won't stop women from having abortions. They just won't be safe for many women. Give me some examples of the health impact of this potential ruling.

RICHINA BICETTE-MCCAIN, EMERGENCY MEDICINE PHYSICIAN AND MEDICAL DIRECTOR, MCNAIR CAMPUS EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT: Don, you are absolutely right about that. There's a saying that if you knew better, you would do better, and we do know better. History has proven that and the scientific data supports that fact.

There actually was a paper published in "The Lancet" that showed that decreasing access to abortion services does not decrease the number of abortions. In another separate paper also published in "The Lancet," they grouped abortion in countries by legal status and showed that the number of unsafe abortions was exceedingly high in places with very restrictive abortion laws.

According to the World Health Organization, almost 47% of abortions across the globe are unsafe, and those can lead to significant physical, but also mental and emotional risks.

LEMON: What about the young girls, especially in lower-income communities, who may have to unwillingly carry their babies to term? What kind of risks do they face? Because poor maternal health is already a major issue in the U.S.

BICETTE-MCCAIN: You know, it's almost as if those who are anti-choice are heralding pregnancy and childbirth as if it is this idealistic risk-free state, and we know that is not the case.

If you look at the CDC data, maternal mortality rates have actually steadily been on the rise since 2018. And if you delve further into that data, Black women are disproportionately affected and are dying from pregnancy-related complications and during childbirth at three times the rate of their white counterparts.

So, women are literally dying to have children, yet the Supreme Court is forcing us to give birth. Let that sink in.

LEMON: Yeah. And what will -- what's going to happen to women who have ectopic pregnancies or other situations where the mother's life is in danger?

BICETTE-MCCAIN: You know, those are interesting situations. I did read that there are multiple states that have trigger laws poised to pass if Roe v. Wade is overturned. And in some of those laws, there are some jurisdictions where abortion is allowed if it is to prevent death of the mom or if it's a medical emergency.

However, in this situation where we are seeing this level of judicial oversight into medical care, who is to say that I am a physician, I'm going to be respected when I deem something to be a medical emergency?


Do I get to make that decision or does a judge that's sitting in a court and has never stepped foot into a medical school or next to a patient's bedside get to make that decision?

LEMON: Doctor, I appreciate you joining us. We will have you back here soon. Thank you so much.

BICETTE-MCCAIN: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: And thank you for watching, everyone. Our coverage continues.


PAULA NEWTON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello and a warm welcome to our viewers in the United States and all around the world. I'm Paula Newton at CNN headquarters in Atlanta.