Return to Transcripts main page

Don Lemon Tonight

Matthew Pottinger To Testify; House Committee Wants Texts Messages From Secret Service; Uvalde Report Upsets More Parents; President Biden's Rating In Poor Figures; Sharks Are Active This Summer. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired July 18, 2022 - 22:00   ET




LAURA COATES, CNN HOST: Thanks for watching, everyone. I'll be back tomorrow night. DON LEMON TONIGHT starts right now. Hey, Don Lemon.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: How are you doing, Laura Coates? Great show. Do you have a good weekend?

COATES: Good, Don Lemon.

LEMON: I always call you by your first and last name. I don't know what it is about you. But just Don Lemon has a special, je ne sais quoi, as they say.

LEMON: Je ne sais quoi.

COATES: Don't up French me. You know I don't speak French. How dare you.

LEMON: I don't sound either.

COATES: I'm trying to sound fancy.

LEMON: I pretend. I'm from Louisiana, so I pretend. But you know, people do that a lot. It's always hey, Don Lemon, hey, Don Lemon. Very few people just call me Don. So, you know, it goes along.

COATES: All right, Don.

LEMON: Yes. Now you do it. All right, Laura Coates I'll see tomorrow.

COATES: Au revoir. Did I get it right?

LEMON: Au revoir. Au revoir.

COATES: All right. Shoot, never mind, bye.


And if you're just tuned in to CNN then I need to tell you about. Bennie Thompson, you know he is the committee chair. He says that -- he tells CNN the January 6 committee hasn't decided whether to subpoena Mike Pence or tried to call Donald Trump to testify. Watch this?


REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MS), CHAIR, JANUARY 6TH COMMITTEE: I think we would benefit from that testimony. They both have, I would think, significant knowledge about what goes on. But we have a committee. And we will work through the process.


LEMON: Plus, first of CNN, multiple sources say a former Trump national security council official will now testify publicly in Thursday's primetime hearing. Matthew Pottinger resigned on January 6 after Trump's tweet slamming his own vice president for refusing to overturn the election.


MATTHEW POTTINGER, FORMER DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR: One of my staff brought me a print out of a tweet by the president. And the tweet said something obvious to the effect of Mike Pence, the vice president didn't have the courage to do what he -- what should have been done. I read that tweet and made a decision at that moment to resign. That's where I knew that I was leaving that they. Once I had read that tweet.


LEMON: Interesting, interesting, interesting. More on that straight ahead on this program. But this could be the week where it all comes together. The committee promising to lay out what the then president did and didn't do during 187 minutes when he could have stopped the riot at the capitol. Think about that, 187 minutes. I want you to think about how long that is. One hundred eighty-seven minutes from the time Donald Trump demanded his supporters marched to the capitol.


DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We are going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue. I love Pennsylvania Avenue. And we are going to the capitol. And we are going to try and give -- the Democrats a hopeless, they are never voted for anything. Not even one vote.

But you're going to try and give our Republicans, the weak ones, because the strong ones don't need any of our help. We're going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country. So, let's walk down Pennsylvania Avenue.


LEMON: Pride and boldness. One hundred eighty-seven minutes. The President of the United States did absolutely nothing, nothing to stop the violence unleashed by his own supporters. Smashing windows there, hunting lawmakers in the hall of Congress. This wasn't antifa, as they'd like you to believe, it's not. It wasn't putting up gallows and chanting to hang his own vice president.


CROWD: Hang Mike Pence. Hang Mike Pence. Hang Mike Pence. Hang Mike Pence. Hang Mike Pence.


LEMON: It is a shameful and embarrassing day for the country. You know, the former president was the only one who could stop them. And it took 187 minutes for him to finally tell them to go home.


TRUMP: Go home. We love you. You are very special. You have seen what happens. You see the way others are treated that are so bad and so evil. I know how you feel. But go home and go home in peace.


LEMON: We love you. You are very special. I know how you feel. Imagine saying that to traitors, rioters, insurrectionists.


That's what he said to that mob trying to overturn our free and fair election, shameful, trying to stop the peaceful transfer of power on a day when our democracy itself was in peril. And what was he doing for those 187 minutes? We know he tried to force his security team to take him to the capitol.


CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FORMER AIDE TO White HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF MARK MEADOWS: The president said something to the effect of, I'm the effing president, take me up to the capitol now.


LEMON: We know his staff, his allies, his own family, were begging him to stop the mob. We know it was his duty to stop them. He swore an oath to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution. And what did he do?


REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): The president didn't do very much but gleeful watch television during this timeframe. We are going to present a lot more than that.


LEMON: And that's not all. The committee expecting to get the Secret Service text messages from January 5th and 6th sometime tomorrow after issuing a subpoena last week. And all right, this too. Steve Bannon, the man who said that this last night before January 6th. The night before January 6th.


STEVE BANNON, FORMER White HOUSE ADVISOR: All hell is going to break loose tomorrow. Just understand this, all hell is going to break loose tomorrow.


LEMON: Before January 6th. Not last night. My bad. He goes on trial this week for defying the committee's subpoena. So, stay tuned for that. We will have full reports.

I want to get right to what is coming from the January 6 committee this week. Here to discuss, Alyssa Farah Griffin, former Trump White House director of strategic communication and John Dean who was Nixon White House counsel.

Good evening to both of you.

John I'm going to start with you because for more than three hours, right, 187 minutes, more than three hours. And what then President Trump was doing or not doing while the capitol was under assault. It is going to be hugely significant. Do you think Americans need to brace for what we may hear?

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I don't know. But I certainly know the committee has a pattern of increasing the focus of their investigation and sharing it with the American people with each hearing. So, it's, in my mind, very likely they will have a very real portrait of a man who has a deep responsibility to the country and was in full dereliction of his duty. I think that's their task. I expect they'll accomplish it.

LEMON: So, Alyssa, you know the players, you worked in the White House. What are you learning tonight? That one key person that will testify is Matthew Pottinger who sat on Trump's National Security Council, also White House aide, Sarah Matthews. She resigned from her post on January 6th. She is expected to testify. What do you think we may hear from them?

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, so Don, thanks for having me. These are two individuals of extraordinary integrity but important players for a number of reasons. Matt Pottinger, retired marine corps officer, he was the Beijing bureau chief for the Wall Street Journal before he pivoted into national security.

He is respected on both sides of the aisle. He actually was reminded in the clip that you played, I traveled to Southeast Asia with him with Vice President Pence on a number of occasions.

And then on the flip side you have Sarah Matthews, deputy White House secretary who I worked closely with who is a tried-and-true Republican, worked on Capitol Hill for Republican members of Congress, worked for the Trump campaign, was personally recruited by Kayleigh McEnany to the White House.

So, you have these people, who were there to serve and they left because they were so horrified by what they saw on January 6th, and they're going to be able to give a TikTok of what was happening in the West Wing that day, the resistance by the president to denounce the violence. The threat environment at the National Security Council was aware of. I think this is going to be a remarkable testimony.

LEMON: How so?

GRIFFIN: I think that it's the TikTok of the time. That as you alluded to, 187 minutes, just allowing that to drag on and seeing that everyone around, that so many people around the former president were telling him he needed to act and he was refusing to.

I per -- I talked to Sarah Matthews on January 6th as she was talking me through her resignation and her statement. And just I remember that the horror in her voice over what she saw. She had friends working on Capitol Hill. She'd worked there. And these are people who, you know, I believe came forward additionally after hearing Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony. So I think that it's -- there is more people who want to come forward and tell the truth about what they saw.


LEMON: John, those deleted text messages from the Secret Service. Right? They were such that it came to light last week. We are hearing that the committee is expected to get those deleted Secret Service messages from January 5th and January 6th. And they're going to happen tomorrow. But might this reveal do you think?

DEAN: Well, it's hard to tell. I understand the Secret Service uses texting for rather informal communication amongst the agents. They often talk about their loved life on the text. So, it may be a bit disappointing as far as figuring out the activities of the president and what happens on that historic day. We'll have to find out.

But I think it's important that they have preserved and they have put it out there that they certainly have what the committee has requested. Now they had to produce and so we'll see on Tuesday if they do that.

LEMON: There could be a, would you believe that these happen in those text messages, if they are talking personally and candidly, correct?

DEAN: Yes, it could. There certainly could be.


DEAN: As we all text, when we text our friends, it's rather, it's more like a conversation then and not quite as formal as e-mail. So there could be very revelatory in what's on those machines if they indeed have preserved the record.

I understand they don't up -- they don't constantly upload the texting as they do the e-mails and other things. So, it may be whatever has made its way to the cloud and they are able to extract and bring it back down.

LEMON: Right on. So, listen, so let's go back to these 187 minutes. Because during the 187 minutes, right after Trump finish at his rally, in the ellipse, Cassidy Hutchison testified that he got into the president's SUV demanding to be taken to the capitol, attacking the Secret Service agent when he didn't get his way.

Those texts could shed light on critical moments during the crisis, or a critical moment during the crisis, if they are indeed found or they've been uploaded as John just alluded to.

GRIFFIN: Well, absolutely. I mean, and it's just -- it's remarkable that it's the 5th and the 6th that are the dates that these text messages are missing for. You don't have to be some kind of a conspiracy theories to think this looks bad.

So, I think it could show anything from, yes, that widely spread rumor that was going around that that incident took place that has now but confirmed by other Secret Service agents. It also, I think, exposes -- and look, I'm someone who worked closely with Secret Service and had tremendous respect for the organization. But they have not come out looking shining in this whole investigation.

They have been stonewalling. We have still not heard from Tony Ornato who has claim that Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony was untrue. We've still not heard from him under oath. So, I'm very, very eager to hear what Secret Service produces. And, if in fact, they were, you know, essentially covering for the former president.

LEMON: Yes. John, there was another key moment during the 187 minutes. Trump's tweet at 12.24 where he slams Pence for refusing to implement his illegal scheme to overturn the election. That tweet was after rioters had already breached the capitol.

And tonight, chairman Bennie Thompson tells our Manu Raju that the committee has still not made a decision on whether to subpoena Pence or try to call Trump to testify. Do you think they should?

DEAN: You know, it is a tough question. Because what they -- I can't imagine either of those principles voluntary and coming and honoring the subpoena. They are going to fight it. So, it just takes us down a side road that may or may not be necessary at this point.

I think, Pence's staff has been cooperative. They've been open about what he was doing what they knew of his thinking. Obviously, he could add a lot more. Trump, I have trouble believing anything the man says. I really do, Don. So, he is up there under oath. I don't know that we'd get anything other than campaign kind of talk. So, I'm not sure that's -- that's worth it.

LEMON: So, you are saying he has trouble with the truth?

DEAN: He had deep trouble. He doesn't know the truth.

LEMON: Thank you, John. Thank you, Alyssa. I appreciate it. So, outrage in Texas, grieving parents, kids and community members

demanding action at a special school board meeting tonight in Uvalde where 19 little kids and two of their teachers were shot to death.


UNKNOWN: There's an anxiousness in my heart that is only worsened by the fear my children have. I think no one person here today can deny there was a massive failure on May 24th. Where these failures lie, is the question.




LEMON: Outrage in Uvalde tonight. Families calling out officials following a damning 77-page report, detailing law enforcement's failed response to that horrific mass shooting at Robb Elementary School in May. Now many are now calling for Uvalde school district police chief Pete Arredondo to be fired.


UNKNOWN: Why do hell does he still have a job with you all? Are you going to fire him?

UNKNOWN: You want to add more security officers to your current staff, yet the current staff is incompetent and liable for the already massive failure. You need to clean house. You need to start from zero.


UNKNOWN: Hire experienced, trained officers who are prepared to take on the responsibility to protect our children.


LEMON: That call to fire Arredondo comes after a new video released to CNN shows him pleading with the shooter to stand down. Here it is, listen.


PETE ARREDONDO, POLICE CHIEF, UVALDE CISD: Sir, if you can hear me, please put your firearm down, sir. We don't want anybody else hurt.

UNKNOWN: We got kids in there.

ARREDONDO: I know, I know.

UNKNOWN: That's what we're doing. We're trying to get them out. They are going to break the window right now.

ARREDONDO: Sir, if you can hear me, please put your gun down. We don't want anybody else hurt.


LEMON: For more on all this, I want to bring in now Texas State Senator Roland Gutierrez. Thank you, Senator, I appreciate you joining us.


LEMON: There is a lot of anger out there, I know, at tonight's school board meeting. Families are calling on Arredondo to be fired. He is still on administrative leave, as Uvalde's school dis -- police district chief there. Does he need to go?


GUTIERREZ: I think it's pretty obvious, Don. You know, I don't work for the CISD, I'm not on the school board, I'm their senator. But it certainly, Arredondo here just failed. He failed these kids, but so did all of the other officers that were in that hallway.

And I'm not suggesting all of them need to go, but certainly people at a supervisory level, like Arredondo, like others in other agencies that sat there and did nothing. There is a Texas state ranger who is walking around for 20 minutes. He is on a phone, Don, with somebody. I want to know who he is talking to, which supervisor in the chain of command within the Texas Rangers is telling him to do absolutely nothing.

What we saw on this video was nothing short of disgusting and disturbing, and I cannot bear to think that what he is talking to on this guy on the phone, children are dying in that room, doing nothing.

LEMON: The report is -- the report is detailed, and it makes it very clear that the failures were systemic, the new body cam video shows how chaotic the police response, or a non-response actually was. Let's play a little. Here it is.


UNKNOWN: But chief is making contact with him, right?

UNKNOWN: No, no one has made contact with him.

UNKNOWN: What are we doing here?

UNKNOWN: I don't know.

UNKNOWN: Do we have anyone that's hit on this side?


UNKNOWN: Any of the kids, or anyone hit?

UNKNOWN: No, we don't know anything about that. No kids.


LEMON: Nearly 400 officers, Senator, were on that scene. Who else needs to be held responsible?

GUTIERREZ: Well, Don, you've got Arredondo, you've got a police chief, you've got a sheriff, you've got the Department of Public Safety that has been spreading lies and innuendo, and false narratives for the last 60 days. And just this week, they finally decided they were going to do an internal investigation as to what they did wrong.

They sat there and did nothing, 91 DPS troopers from border operation lone star, federal officers that also did nothing. Yes, it's great, they finally went in. But at the end of the day, they sat there as well doing nothing, all in complete chaos with no coordination. And I said for 60 days, we had system failure. We didn't need a report to tell us that there was systemic failure.

LEMON: Senator, can you respond, I want you to respond to this. CNN has reached out to the DPS to ask whether there could be criminal charges against anyone in law enforcement. What do you think the consequences should be?

GUTIERREZ: Certainly, these families have a right to go to court and have their civil grievances be heard with the Texas Tort Claims Act, those will be difficult. But I certainly, I think that there is gross negligence that we might be able to get through some kind of immunity at that level. Though I'm sure they have very good civil lawyers practicing for them in that area.

We've been hearing about child endangerment charges, or abandoning a child, and that's certainly that's also possible. But I think that when you go down that road, as a prosecutor, under the Texas law parties, you better be ready to prosecute all of those officers because none of them did a damn thing to save those children.

LEMON: I also want to get your response to this. Because you -- you are the one who told CNN, you said that Governor Abbott hasn't been to Uvalde since the Friday after the shooting. And we've got this response from the governor's office tonight.

And it says, Governor Abbott has been to the community multiple times since that tragic day, joining his fellow Texans to grieve and worship at events into June. The governor and his office remain in regular contact with mayor Laughlin -- McLaughlin, and Uvalde leaders, speaking on, and almost daily basis to ensure the Uvalde community is receiving the support and all the available resources to heal.

Now, we asked the governor's office to provide us the days that he was in Uvalde, but have not gotten a response. Last night, Uvalde's mayor said that he hadn't spoken to the governor in four weeks. So, what do you say to Governor Abbott's response today?

GUTIERREZ: This governor has been missing in action when it comes to Uvalde. The governor, the mayor and I, together have sent a letter to him to take the district attorney away from the disbursement of trauma funds of trauma relief. Finally, the county was able to move that to an (Inaudible) group out of San Antonio.

Listen, this governor hasn't been around. The last time he was here this morning, I said Friday, it was Sunday when the president came down. Since May 29th, five days afterwards, that's how long it's been that he hasn't been in Uvalde. It wasn't -- he didn't go to any funerals because he doesn't care about these people.

And I know that sounds very, very harsh. But at the end of the day, this community has been asking this governor for help on their radios for the past seven years. We had system errors. We had community patient error. We had human failures. But all of this goes back to a tremendous story in history of negligence in rural Texas by this governor.


LEMON: Senator Gutierrez, I appreciate you joining us. Thank you. Be well.

GUTIERREZ: Thank you, Don.

LEMON: So, we know what was done. But how should not enforcement have acted? I'm going to speak with former top FBI and police supervisors right after this.


LEMON: Breakdowns in communication, lack of effective command. Those are just part of the findings from a scathing report by the Texas House blasting the police response to the massacre in Uvalde, Texas. So, what should they have done differently? What should have been done? And how can everyone make sure that nothing like this ever happens again?


So, joining me now CNN law enforcement analyst and former FBI supervisory special agent, Peter Licata. Also retired police captain, Ron Johnson, the former incident commander in Ferguson, Missouri.

Thank you both for joining me, gentlemen.

Ron, I'm going to start with you, because we saw the video of chief Arredondo trying to talk to that shooter, calling him sir. Does this completely fly in the face of how police are trained to handle any active shooter?

RON JOHNSON, RETIRED CAPTAIN, MISSOURI STATE HIGHWAY PATROL: Well, an active shooter, initially, you have to respond as soon as you can. Those first officers on the scene should rally up as a team even they're from their departments. And they should have trained together prior to this. And they go toward the danger toward the incident in the room.

So, they should've responded directly toward that room and towards what was going on there. You know, I was surprised to hear the chief negotiating with the suspect when it should've been a trained negotiator. But really, at that point, negotiation weren't what should have taken place. It should've been action towards the danger in the room.

LEMON: Peter, I saw you are shaking your head in agreement to what Captain Johnson was saying there. You were the leader for the bomb squad during your time with the FBI. Tell us more about what a team leader is supposed to do in an emergency like this? Why didn't anyone else step up?

PETER LICATA, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: That's a good -- that's a good question, Don. His role was not exactly what he was doing. If you look at the videotape, he had his weapon drawn. He's on the phone trying to talk at the same time. There's actually one point where he's the individual trying to fumble with the keys to get into one of those classrooms until he gives up and he gives them to another officer.

That is not the responsibility of the on-scene commander. The on-scene commander's job is to direct traffic in and out and to give commands and orders based on the information that they are receiving, or he or she is receiving from the individuals that are basically what we call on the x. And he failed to do that.

LEMON: Can, OK, so Captain Johnson just said he was surprised that he heard the chief, you know, actually doing the negotiating. Can other officers be -- can they -- can they force the issue here of people in the higher chain of command aren't really commanding?

LICATA: They should. But you don't know what type of department that is. Officers should've stepped up and said, boss, chief, I got this. You should be outside. You should be outside this facility. You need to direct traffic from outside. We've got it inside. But that obviously didn't happen.

LEMON: So, it's a very simple question but everyone was like, everyone I speak to wants to know, what the hell happened there? What happened there, Peter?

LICATA: You know, I'm a subject matter expert. You know, that's what I'm here for, for law enforcement, so as Captain Johnson. Everyone, any layman that has seen that video knows what went wrong. You don't need somebody like me to sit there and say what went wrong. But when I can harken back is to training, it's training, it's training.

LEMON: Is that people don't think -- you know, I know you rely on your training. You made that very clear. You rely on your training but is it that people in law enforcement, maybe some members, don't think that it will ever happen in their community? Maybe they don't take it as seriously as they should? Or, I don't know. It seems like, and they were trained. They have been trained.

LICATA: They have been trained. How much dedication did they put into that training, how much did they pay attention, how many resources that they put into it? But to your point, sir, absolutely. The biggest enemy any law enforcement officer has is really not the bad guy with the gun. It's complacency. So, to your point, this isn't going to happen here. This is a small

town. We are close community. This will never happen here. So, let's not put the resources we need to into making sure we are prepared when it happens.

LEMON: Yes. But listen again, and we weren't there. But if you look at the reports it appears that obviously there were these huge breakdowns, not only in communication, but in response.

Ron, the report also says that the school had recurring problems with doors and locks including the door to this classroom. I mean, were issues like that were not taken seriously enough?

JOHNSON: I think none. I think that's a part of the chief and the police department, their responsibility to make sure that the policies and procedures are being followed, that the teachers and everybody in the school understand the procedures that needed to be taken. And you know, it is about training.

We have to make sure we train and we train together. But it's also about leadership. We saw where 300 officers that were there. And so, leadership, where somebody has to step up and be the leader and lead in that moment. I think there was an opportunity when we see those first officers on the scene, to lead. And lead and training go together. They are separate but they actually have to go together. We saw how when they didn't come together what has happened here.

LEMON: Yes, I mean, there are over 400 officers there on the scene. And you know, you said when the first officers but there are a lot of officers. Compare that, Peter, the Uvalde tragedy to another shooting that left three people dead. This is in Indiana this weekend where a bystander with the gun stopped the mass shooter early and end this rampage.

Police found two guns and more than 100 rounds on the gunman. So, it could've been a lot worse. Give us your reaction to that one what happened over the weekend?


LICATA: What's happened over the weekend was textbook in a way. You know, you had an incident, it was resolved fairly quickly based on an innocent bystander. And again, we've talked about it before, Don, on other segments.

It's about the public stepping up and the public reacting to incidents. And then the police handled it well in addition to this individual. Now, hope thankfully, we didn't have to see what would happen if there wasn't that innocent, you know, the bystander there that actually took direct action. We didn't get a chance to see that law enforcement reaction. Thankfully, we didn't. Thankfully, not more people died because of this incident.

But again, the public needs to step up. Not just -- I'm not talking about with firearms but speaking up to reporting the things that seem suspicious. If you see something, say something. This individual, Crimo should've been called weeks and months ago about his activities. About his -- the purchasing of these extraordinary amounts of weapons and ammunition. No one said anything. And that's where -- that's the part that was wrong.

LEMON: Yes. I'm sure, correct me if I'm wrong, police departments around the country, Captain Ron Johnson, they are probably looking at what happened in Uvalde and saying we are going to make sure this never happens to us. And everyone I'm sure is being trained or retrained or taking their training more seriously than they had before.

JOHNSON: And they are. There's a lot of training going on in our country. I like to tell everybody in America to continue to have confidence in our brave men and women in law enforcement throughout this country.

We have heard from law enforcement officers throughout the country who have said that something else should have been done. This doesn't go in with the training that we have had. And they've said we should go to that danger immediately and rally up a team. So, we are hearing from law enforcement not to rally around saying we've been given answers to make us feel good. But being honest and saying there were failures here and it has to be done better.

LEMON: Ron, Peter, thank you so much, I appreciate it.

Voters telling CNN the state of the country is bad. The economy is bad. President Biden, well, most of them don't approve of the job he's been doing. Governor John Kasich is here. He is going to talk about that and why he thinks the January 6th hearing is breaking through for Republicans. He is next.



LEMON: President Biden is back in U.S. after his Mideast tour. Here at home the president is facing widespread frustration over his job performance and the state of the country. Here it is, folks.

CNN's new poll finds only 38 percent of Americans approve of the job Biden is doing as president. And eight in ten Americans say things are going badly.

To dig in to those numbers, CNN's senior commentator, John Kasich is here. Hello, John. Good evening.


LEMON: The numbers are not good, especially for top issues for voters. Seven in 10 Americans don't approve of the president's handling of economy. And that is going to be a major issue in both the midterms and 2024.

KASICH: Yes. I mean, in his -- the poll about his -- how they feel he's doing with the economy is worse than his overall approval. It's in the low 30s. And, Don, look, I mean, it's always the pocketbook. That's what always matters. And in this case, you know what people are paying to get gasoline at the pump. They go to the store, prices are up.

I think it's particularly hurting people who, you know, don't have a lot. These blue-collar folks are having a hard time making ends meet and they are very unhappy. And one recommendation I would make to Joe Biden is he needs to take a chapter from Bill Clinton and tell us that he feels -- he feels our pain.

And you know, sometimes he says, well, things are going great, or things are going well, they're on the right track, well they're not on the right track. He needs to get down with everybody else and sit there and say, look, I got it, I get it. And we are going to -- we are going to work harder. We are going to bring these prices down. And all that. And we don't hear that from him.

That's what he really needs to do. And people kind of like him personally, but he is not showing the kind of compassion about this problem with the economy that I think he should be.

LEMON: When you got --


KASICH: And he's got to pay for it.

LEMON: When you've got 79 percent of Americans thinking things are going badly, I mean, that's going to -- I think that requires a leadership change as you said. Look, I don't know if your answers are right. But how can the country get back on track, do you think?

KASICH: Well, I think if you, first of all, let's just take energy. And you know, he is over there in the Middle East asking these countries to try to produce more oil. Well, he ought to be needing with executives here and trying to open some pipelines. Reduce some regulations. Do some drilling. You can't be over there telling them to produce more oil when we're not -- when we've got oil in this country that we are not producing. And in terms of inflation --


LEMON: Well, more pipelines, that's not going to -- that's nt going to -- but more pipelines are not going to drop the price of oil.

KASICH: It's processing, Don, it's pipelines, it's committing that we are not going to have such regulatory stranglehold that companies are not going to invest. Right now, they're sitting on the sidelines. They say we don't know with would happen tomorrow.

Don, I'm just telling you what I hear out here. And if we had more supply -- and part of the reason why prices have come down is because they've released some oil from that reserve. But markets live on hope. Markets response on hope. And to say that, you know, we are not going to keep spending all this money. We are going to look for ways to save money. I mean, those are the kind of things, and by the way, I'm going to go to a store and I'm going to meet with some people and I'm going to look at these prices and I'm going to tell them I get it and we are working on it.


KASICH: I think we need more of that.

LEMON: Listen.


KASICH: He's going to salvage himself. They're going to get clobbered in the House. The Senate is a little different because the Senate candidates, a couple of these Republican candidates for the United States Senate are not good candidates. They could lose, they could lose, and the Democrats could hang on. But in the House, it's going to be Republican.

LEMON: Look -- look, what you think the fixes are, Ill grant you that. But having more, you said, more oil flow or gas flow, or opening some of the pipelines --

KASICH: Right.

LEMON: -- studies have shown that does not, that does not lower the price of oil. Or lower the price of gas, I should say, of gasoline. That's not going to lower the price of gasoline because we're not in an energy shortage, we're not in an energy crunch. The prices are just high. So, that has nothing to do with the amount of that is flowing into the country.


KASICH: Don, Don, no -- look, the fact to the matter is, they have shut down pipelines, they've harassed processors, they have over regulated, and they're not saying that we are going to increase domestic supply. And the reason why they are saying that is because they don't want --


LEMON: Domestic supply has nothing to do with the price of it, John. It's all I'm saying.

KASICH: Don, if people don't -- if they don't have the supply, then the prices go up. I'm sorry, that's just a fact.

LEMON: Ok, all right, let's talk about --

KASICH: It's like saying we can print -- wait --

LEMON: People aren't waiting in gas lines because we don't have gas.


KASICH: We can print money forever if we don't have inflation. LEMON: That's not the whole point of it. I agree with you, with

everything else you said. But just -- we don't have an energy shortage. We don't have a gas shortage. We have a price -- the prices are high. And by increasing the flow of gasoline --


KASICH: Don, gasoline comes from oil.

LEMON: I understand that, John.

KASICH: It gets refined.

LEMON: But that's not what you are saying, it's not going to drop the price of gasoline. It's just not -- that's just not how it works.

KASICH: Let me, you know why he is over there? Do you know what he was doing over there in Saudi Arabia?

LEMON: He wants them to drop the price of oil, not to increase.

KASICH: No. He wants them to produce more.


KASICH: He is saying produce more. We have a supply problem, Don, that's what we have.


LEMON: We're not in an energy shortage.

KASICH: We can argue about this all day long.

LEMON: OK. Let's talk about January 6, because we are not in an energy shortage. I'm sorry. That's not, what you are saying is not right.

KASICH: OK. Well, we just disagree on this.

LEMON: So, we don't disagree, what you are saying is not right. We're not in an energy shortage.


KASICH: Don, when he is over --

LEMON: And you can't -- you cannot open another pipeline that's going to lower the price of gas.

KASICH: -- at Saudi Arabia asking (Inaudible), he, Don -- Don, he was --

LEMON: That is not what's happening right now. This is not 1970 with Jimmy Carter. KASICH: Don, Don, let me tell you, energy companies today are on the sidelines, they are not making the investments in production right now. He was in Saudi Arabia asking them to increase the amount of supply in the country. That's what he was -- in the world, that's was he was doing.


LEMON: That's not going to have anything to do with the price of gas today.


LEMON: Let me ask you about January 6. The committee is going to be wrapping up its current hearing, scheduling on Thursday.


LEMON: What do you think is going to come out of this hearing?

KASICH: Well, I said a week ago that the Trump supporters, many of them, have become mushy. And they're not defending him anymore. And I think that the fact of the matter is he is like a scrambling man, you know, who is the Allman Brothers, saying about the rambling man, he is the scrambling man. That's why he is talking -- that's why he's about announcing, Don.

He's talking about announcing for president to try to change the subject because, listen, the Trump ship is beginning to head down. It's beginning to go down. I felt it for a while. And I think it's going to continue to go that way. He may even make an announcement which will freak all the Republicans out because it will motivate Democrat turnout, which could help the Democrats in the Senate races across this country.

You know, there are, Republicans are holding their breath that he won't do it but he probably will. Everything has to be about Donald Trump in the end, as you and I have been talking about for four years, right?

LEMON: I love our chats. Thank you, John, I've got to run. I appreciate it. I'll see you later.

KASICH: All right, Don. See you. Thanks.

LEMON: Sharks in the water, beaches closed, authorities putting out warnings. What's with the uptick and shark sightings? We're going to go to the beach, next.



LEMON: An increase in sharks sightings off beaches on Long Island prompting New York's governor to beef up shark monitoring, including new beach patrols and more lifeguards, as well as using drones and helicopters, multiple sightings forcing the closing up two Long Island beaches yesterday. And one on Cape Cod in Massachusetts.

We have CNN's Evan McMorris-Santoro to check out what's bringing the sharks closer to shore.

EVAN MCMORRIS-SANTORO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Don, let's start with the most important point. It is highly unlikely you get bitten by a shark, or killed by a shark. That was true last summer, and it is true this summer. But there has been an increase in shark encounters in beaches like this one here in Long Island, New York. That has officials nervous.

They are adding resources, they're adding lifeguards, they're adding drones, they're adding patrols to try and spot sharks that they say are increasingly coming closer, and closer into shore.

I spoke to the mayor of Hempstead here where these beaches that I am standing on and asked him what he thinks is going on.


DON CLAVIN, HEMPSTEAD, NEW YORK SUPERVISOR: The waters are definitely warmer. As a result, you are now seeing what they call bait fish now coming to the area along our coast. That isn't been normal for decades.


MCMORRIS-SANTORO: Now I want to explain to you what it means when they say the sharks are coming in close. Behind me, that red ball bobbing back there, that's the line about as far as swimmers are supposed to swim safely from this speech. It's about 75 yards from the shoreline.

Sharks have been spotted on beaches like this one much closer in, as close as 25 yards, and even closer. And that's what has officials worried, that these sharks are coming in close. Humans aren't on the menu, lifeguards say, but those fish that those sharks like to eat, they are on the menu and they are coming in closer, bringing the sharks along with them.

So far, officials say it hasn't had a huge impact on tourism. I spoke to one mother here today at the beach who said she is still coming down here. She is excited to come to the beach, she trusts the lifeguards, but she'd rather not see a shark.


JEANIE FULMER, NEW YORK MOM: We don't want to see sharks in the water, we don't mind seeing at the aquarium, but that's pretty much it. My boys love sharks, so they don't want to see them out.


MCMORRIS-SANTORO: So, officials tell me, and lifeguards tell me, it is safe to come to the beach, if you stay vigilant and listen to the lifeguards when they tell you to get out of the water. Don? [22:55:03]

LEMON: Evan, thank you so much. So, they want the Secret Service text messages and they are getting them. The January 6th committee zeroing in on the texts of the Secret Service one that they reportedly erased. Stay with us.


LEMON: The January 6th select committee is gearing up for a big primetime hearing as more and more evidence is coming in. Sources tell CNN that Matthew Pottinger, a former Trump National Security Council official, will now testify publicly on Thursday alongside Sarah Matthews a former Trump White House aide.

The hearing focusing on what Donald Trump was doing for 187 minutes when he could have stopped the attack on the capitol.

I want to bring in now CNN's chief legal analyst, Mr. Jeffrey Toobin and CNN senior legal analyst, Mr. Elie Honig.


Gentlemen, good evening. Thank you.

Jeff, this is a big week for the January 6 investigation. The primetime hearing. Secret Service text messages coming.