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Don Lemon Tonight

January 6th Committee Details 187 Minutes of Trump Inaction. Aired 12-1a ET

Aired July 22, 2022 - 00:00   ET


REP. ELAINE LURIA (D-VA): What I emphasized at the end of that clip, because he couldn't say it.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. Congresswoman Luria, thank you so much for your time.

LURIA: Yes. Thank you for having me.

COOPER: Yes, really appreciate it.

Don Lemon picks up our coverage right now -- Don.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, welcome. This is DON LEMON TONIGHT.

So it was unhinged, relentless, remorseless, a campaign to overturn the election and defy the will of the American people by using an enraged mob to try to delay or deny the certification of the electoral votes.

The January 6th Committee promised us new revelations in tonight's primetime hearing. What do you think?

I think they delivered, showing us exactly what happened, minute by minute, from the time Donald Trump told his supporters to go to the Capitol, to the time he finally -- I mean finally -- told them to go home. Telling them that he loved them, after they trashed the seat of our democracy; after they beat police to within an inch of their lives; and they threatened to hang his vice president.

And let's not forget what they were doing there. Right? We talk about hanging the vice president and trashing the Capitol, and what they did to police officers. Remember, these are people who were breaking windows, stealing things from offices, leaving feces behind, urinating in the Capitol. How soon we forget, right?

And while all of this was going on, while they were peeking in the Capitol and leaving feces, taking things from people's offices, threatening to kill lawmakers, 187 minutes was when the president, when all this was going on, refusing over and over again to stop them. Because he wanted to hold onto power. We are going to do a deep dive for you tonight into what we heard and

what we saw tonight. Witnesses who have never spoken publicly before. Never-before-seen video. Even after everything the committee has revealed, everything that they have shown us.

This is stunning. Outtakes from the speech the then-president recorded just one day after his own supporters rioted at the United States Capitol. Watch.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whenever you're ready, sir.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I would like to begin by addressing the heinous attack yesterday. And to those who broke the law, you will pay. You do not represent our movement. You do not represent our country. And if you broke the law -- I can't say that. I'm not -- I already said you will pay.

The demonstrators who infiltrated the Capitol have defied the seat of -- It's defiled, right? See, I can't see it very well. I'll do this. I'm going to do this. Let's go.

This election is now over. Congress has certified the results. I don't want to say the election is over. I just want to say that Congress has certified the results, without saying the election is over, OK?


TRUMP: Yes, yes. I didn't say over. So let me see. Go to the paragraph before.

OK? I would like to begin by addressing the heinous attack yesterday. Yesterday is a hard word for me.

I. TRUMP: Just take it out. The heinous attack.

TRUMP: OK, good. Take the word "yesterday." Because it doesn't work with "the heinous attack on our country." Say "on our country." Want to say that?


TRUMP: My only goal was to ensure the integrity of the vote. My only goal was to ensure the integrity of the vote.


LEMON: OK. Let me just say this. I read a teleprompter every day. It's not easy. Right? It's something you have to get used to. Right? And I'm not always perfect. But I mean.

I don't want to hear any more criticism about how President Biden delivers a speech after watching that. No criticism. Yesterday? Anyways. Last night, committee member Adam Schiff told me it would be

significant, what the president was willing to say and what he wasn't willing to say. And now we know. He wasn't willing to say the election is over.

The company also playing for the first time Secret Service radio traffic, as agents desperately tried to get Vice President Mike Pence out.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we're moving, we need to move now.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we lose any more time, we may have -- we may lose the ability to leave. So if we are going to leave, we need to do it now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They have gained access to the second floor. And I've got public about five feet from me down here below.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Copy. They're on the second floor, moving in now. We may want to consider getting out and leaving now. Copy?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will we encounter the people once we make our way?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- encounter any individuals if we made our way to the -- to the --


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are six officers between us and the people that are five to 10 feet away from me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stand by. I'm going down to evaluate.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a clear shot if we move quickly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've got smoke downstairs. Stand by. Unknown smoke downstairs by the protesters?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that route compromised?


LEMON: There are people who testified, who were concerned for their lives, because they're getting threats. A national security professional whose identity was hidden, for fear of retribution, telling the committee that the situation was so dangerous there were calls to the family members of the vice president's detail, to say goodbye.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The members of the VP detail at this time were starting to fear for their own lives. There were a lot of -- there was a lot of yelling, a lot of -- a lot of very personal calls over the radio, so it was disturbing. I don't like talking about it, but there were calls to say good-bye to family members, so on and so forth. It was getting -- for whatever the reason was on the ground, the V.P. detail thought that this was about to get very ugly.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And did you hear that over the radio?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What was the response by the agents -- the Secret Service agents who were there?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody kept saying, you know, at that point it was just reassurances. Or I think there were discussions of reinforcements coming, but again, it was just chaos. They were just yelling.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Obviously, you've conveyed that's disturbing, but what -- what prompted you to put it into an entry?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If they were running out of options, they were getting nervous. It sounds like that we came very close to either Service having to use lethal options or -- of worse.


LEMON: And there were witnesses we had never heard from before, like deputy White House press secretary Sarah Matthews, who testified under oath about what she saw and heard in the Trump White House and was slammed by the House GOP Twitter account even before she testified. That tweet was later deleted.


SARAH MATTHEWS, FORMER DEPUTY WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: It was essentially him giving the greenlight to these people, telling them that what they were doing at the steps of the Capitol and entering the Capitol was OK. That they were justified in their anger.

And he shouldn't have been doing that. He should have been telling these people to go home and to leave, and to condemn the violence that we were seeing. It was him pouring gasoline on the fire and making it much worse.


LEMON: So, we have got a whole lot to talk about. David Axelrod is here; Alice Stewart, Elie Honig. They are kicking it off for us. I appreciate all of you joining us. Thank you so much. I was kind of -- you know, it was a little tongue-in-cheek about. But

if you look, it was tough for him to get through that speech. And I think that, Alice, you bring us something that's very important. You said to me, "He also had trouble saying 'I lost'."

ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I concede, Joe Biden won. Those are pretty easy words to say, but evidently, not for former --

DAVID AXELROD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: He's still stumbling over them.


LEMON: He still can't say it.

STEWART: And I think one of the takeaways we got from tonight was really the closing statement we heard from Liz Cheney, saying that this wasn't a bunch of Democrats, over the series of these hearings, dog-piling on the former president.

These were members of Trump's inner circle and his family, outlining a series of confessions that were damaging to him.

And I broke it up into three -- three buckets this evening. We had one starting off right out of the gate, when we were talking about Trump bearing responsibility for this. And his top people -- McConnell, McCarthy, as well as Milley -- all saying that he did bear responsibility.

And next, during the 2:24 tweet that basically didn't do enough to call people in. Calms people, saying that it was unhelpful, it was unpatriotic, and un-American.

And then even further, as the hearing went on this evening, we heard his top people, Cipollone, Kellogg, as well as Jared Kushner, who acknowledged, yes, he did have the duty to engage and oversee the peaceful transfer of power. He did not do that.


So the question is, was this a dereliction of duty? If -- if it wasn't, it was certainly was a disregard for duty.

LEMON: Well, that's a good question. I'll ask you, David. Let's -- we have to remember, because the testimony filled with all this alarming evidence of what happened on January the 6th.

We have the Secret Service radio traffic, showing agents were terrified for the vice president --


LEMON: -- and for their own lives. On top of that, as we've seen, because you know, we've been talking about this for a while. You have the police officers being beaten with Trump flags and American flagpoles. You had people, as I said, urinating and defecating in the Capitol, leaving the Capitol staff to clean up their mass.

And then you had a president in those 187 minutes, sitting in the dining room in the West Wing doing nothing, watching it on television.

AXELROD: Yes, I mean, it was worse than that, because as was pointed out during this testimony, he didn't call his Defense Department. He didn't call his attorney general. He didn't call his homeland security director. Who did he speak to? Rudy Giuliani.

He was the commander-in-chief, but he was the commander-in-chief of the insurrectionists, not the United States military. And not -- he wasn't acting as president of the United States. That's very, very clear.

It was stunning to me, as someone who worked in that building, because I know what a normal president would have been doing under those circumstances. They would've been down in the Situation Room. They would have been in touch with all the responsible parties and they would have moved rapidly, you +know.

But on the other hand, they would not have launched the mob down there.

And you know, he -- he didn't act, because he didn't want to act. That was pointed all night. He didn't act, because they were doing what he wanted him to do.

LEMON: You know what stood out to me, you know, David, is that the -- it was on tape. It was on tape, and take after take. And he said, I'm going to say this. I'm going to say that.

I'm talking about the day of. I'm talking about January 6th. And you said you've been there, and you know what a normal president would have been doing.

Would a normal president be saying, Get me into the briefing room right now, or his folks saying, Get into the briefing room. On live television, saying, Listen, this is not what America is about. I know it's tough for you.

AXELROD: But Don, a normal president would not have denied the results of a free and fair election. A normal president would not have summoned a mob to Washington and held a rally and launched them down to the Capitol, knowing that many of them are armed. A normal president wouldn't have done that. So we should dispense with what a normal president would do, I guess.

What was clear here is that he had a plan, and they were part of the plan. And he was not going to act, despite everything that he was being told by all the people around him.

LEMON: Let me just ask this, because Alice brings up a very good point when she talks about dereliction of duty. You talk about all of those things, what a normal president should be doing; what he did and did not do. OK. Is that -- he chose not to act to stop this insurrection, while the Capitol was being sacked. Do you see anything that is, I don't know, criminal? Any criminal intent?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, let me say this. I think the tagline that we've heard leading into this hearing was dereliction of duty. I actually think that ended up being an undersell for what Donald Trump did.

Because dereliction of duty, to me, suggests somebody who may be frozen under pressure, didn't know what to do, panicked under the tension of it all.

LEMON: Didn't live up to their oath.

HONIG: Right. Exactly. But we saw compelling evidence tonight that Donald Trump knew darn well what he was doing. And in fact, at some points, took affirmative steps that appeared designed to spur on the mob.

I mean, the infamous 2:24 tweet, where Donald Trump tweets out negatively about Mike Pence. We got testimony tonight that, at that point, Donald Trump knew that the Capitol was under siege, knew there was violence in the Capitol, and had received exactly the opposite advice. Sarah Matthews and others testified, we were all telling him, You have to tamp this down. And he does the exact opposite. He inflames things.

So if anything, I think dereliction of duty sort of doesn't quite even do the trick.

LEMON: OK. Let's talk more about this. I want to play this soundbite, because this may help you -- you know, talk about the legal angle. And I know you want to respond to this, as well, Alice.

He didn't call any military or law enforcement. This is what we heard from taped testimony. Watch this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sir, are you aware of any phone call by the president of the United States to the secretary of defense that day?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you aware of any phone call by the president of the United States to the attorney general of the United States that day?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you aware of any phone call by the president of the United States to the secretary of homeland security that day?

CIPOLLONE: I'm not aware of that, no.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever hear the vice president -- or excuse me, the president --


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- ask for that?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever hear the president ask for a law enforcement response?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So as somebody who works in the national security space and with the National Security Council, if -- if there were going to be troops present or called up for a rally in Washington, D.C., for example, is that something that you would have known about?

KELLOGG: Yes, I would have.


LEMON: It is clear that he wanted the insurrection to succeed. So could anybody else have stepped in? David, you've been there. Hey! Listen! We've got to do this. And if you don't call. I'm going to call. What's the protocol?


AXELROD: Well, I mean, you can't call in, you know, in defiance of the president. But the chief of staff could have called representing the president, if the president wanted him to do it.

And I think one of the big gaps here, Don, is we don't know what he was telling Mark Meadows, because Mark Meadows ultimately refused to testify. He was very useful in terms of turning over his -- his emails that have become quite incriminating.

But, you know, all we have here is hearsay about what was said by the president, to the president. Cipollone can't say what his conversation was with the president, because he has a privilege issue. So, he talked around it.

But it would really be useful to know what people -- what people said to him, precisely about what was going; what he told them. And it is -- that's a little hazy here.

And I don't know. I'm not -- I'm not a lawyer. I say it with some pride. But -- but, I mean, I'm -- I think that is a necessary ingredient here. Isn't it?

HONIG: Yes, Mark Meadows is really the missing man here, as David said. He did momentarily cooperate. And he turned over those thousands of texts, some of them very damning. We saw them tonight. The texts of Republican luminaries across the spectrum, begging Meadows. You have to get in there. You have to condemn this!

LEMON: There's no official record of what the president was doing, and they said that tonight.

HONIG: Exactly, and the guy who could fill that record the best is Mark Meadows. And he went away. He defied the committee. The committee held him in contempt, sent it over to DOJ. And DOJ said, We're not prosecuting.

So, as of this moment, there are no consequences for Mark Meadows refusing to testify in Congress. But I do want to say, there's a way to address that. Because the Department of Justice has grand jury subpoenas. Those are much stronger than congressional subpoenas. Courts are much more likely to enforce those. So, if DOJ were to spring into action here, Mark Meadows may not be able to slip away forever.

LEMON: There is this conspiracy theory out there that I want to debunk, because I know the truth about it. And it is that Nancy Pelosi did not call the National Guard in on that day. Is it Nancy Pelosi's? Was it her responsibility to call in the National Guard?


LEMON: Or was it the president of the United States?

AXELROD: No. She doesn't have the authority to do that. She can urge the president to do it. She can urge others to do it. But the president has to do it.

STEWART: Well, and all this we're hearing, we're hearing it from so many people. We're not hearing directly from people that spoke directly to the president.

And to your point, Mark Meadows is the keeper of a lot of that information. We just don't know what he was saying.

We did hear some this evening that, when people were trying to urge him to tweet a specific message to his supporters to leave, Kayleigh McEnany did say he doesn't that. He says that that's not what he wants to do.

But here's what I think is even more disturbing. You mentioned what a normal president would do, what a normal person would do under these circumstances. I think one of the most frustrating testimony we heard, an audio we heard was from the -- Vice President Pence's security detail.

AXELROD: It was awful.

STEWART: Saying that they were calling their family members saying goodbyes, thinking that this was going to be their last day on earth. That they were going to die.

And, we heard testimonies that Donald Trump heard that, real time. He heard what those people were saying. And not just a normal president but a caring person would do would say, this has to stop right now. And that didn't happen.

LEMON: I've got questions for you as a Trump supporter. All right? STEWART: OK.

LEMON: After the break. Don't go anywhere.



LEMON: Well, we're back now with our special coverage, tonight's primetime hearing on the January 6th Committee, laying out minute by minute detail through testimony by former top White House aides. How the ex-president refused to take action to stop the rioting for more than three hours.

Back with me, David Axelrod, Alice Stewart, and Elie Honig.

Duh-duh-duh. So how do you feel as a Trump supporter, watching this?

STEWART: Well, really disgusted, disappointed, and frustrated. A lot of this we already knew. But hearing the details of -- of how he sat there for over three hours and did nothing, with -- with encouragement and advice from rational people around him, was frustrating.

And the fact that he sat back, not just what all these people were doing something, storming the Capitol and potentially harming members of Congress.

But knowing that his vice president, who had been a very loyal soldier, was under attack and in danger. Knowing that Secret Service members are calling their families, saying that, you know basically giving their last words.

And knowing that the riots were continuing. And people were getting more inflamed as the minutes go by. And he did nothing. It's very disappointing. And, again --

AXELROD: Well, here's my question.

LEMON: Hold on, hold on. Do you still support him?

STEWART: I -- I don't. I don't. Simply because, look, we have plenty of other people that will do the policies that he provided for us that would never do this, would never question the outcome of the election and would never go to this length to -- to try and stop the certification of the election.

And I think, you know, we talk about how this is a Republican and Democrat on the domestic level. I think Pottinger raised a very important point, as well, tonight, talking about the national security implications of this. And, what this did to us on the international stage to our enemies abroad, saying America's form of government is not good, is not working.

LEMON: America is in decay. I that that's what they said.

One more question, David, and then I promise I'll let you get in. Is this an off-ramp for -- for the support in the party, for maybe even some of the die-hards, maybe some of the people who make excuses for him?

STEWART: Well, you know, there's a lot of people that say one thing behind closed doors and one thing out in public. Because they don't want to face the wrath and retribution of the former president. People have been --

LEMON: Does this change that calculus, do you think? Maybe?

STEWART: There's -- there are still a lot of people that are going to publicly support Donald Trump. We see it everywhere we go. We see a lot of people that will continue to vocally support this president and public.


I think yesterday, which is not a very hard word to say, yesterday when Vice President Pence was in the --

AXELROD: Nicely done.

STEWART: -- speaking at the Capitol Hill club, Republicans who are vocally disrespectful to him, gave him a standing ovation for his job, for his work to certify the election, and do his duty to certify the election. They would not do that if Donald Trump were in the room, but they did so privately.

LEMON: I have members of my family, by the way, down South who say "yisterdie" [SIC]. So anyway, you know. I'm sorry, David, you wanted to ask --

AXELROD: Well, I just wanted to say, relative to what Alice was saying. We can be appalled, and should be appalled, by what we heard tonight, what we've heard through these nine hearings.

But we shouldn't be surprised.


AXELROD: We shouldn't be surprised, because Donald Trump has made his model, in business and in politics and in government, breaking rules, breaking laws, breaking norms, disregarding institutions.

We had, you know, we had in impeachment before -- the second impeachment that had to do with this that, you know, where he was shaking down Zelenskyy for help in the 2020 election.

There is a pattern of behavior here that -- that was all leading up to this.

And, so -- but in answer to your question, Don, I think that -- that Republicans, the thing that they're going to have to consider, he is dominant still in the Republican Party. And you can see it in some of these primaries. The question is, will he be a burden going into a general election?

And I think that they're going to become increasingly nervous about whether that's a load they want to carry into -- into 2024.

But I don't know that his base is going to move away from it. And in a weird way -- I was talking to David Chalian about this on my podcast, looking vulnerable may help him, because more people may get into the Republican primary. And they have a winner-take-all system over there. So, his 33 percent of solid supporters could be enough to win a bunch of primaries.

LEMON: Yes. Quickly.

STEWART: Yes. Just quickly. His base is not going anywhere. They will stay there. That 30 --

LEMON: Because they didn't see it. They're not watching this.

STEWART: They're not watching. They're watching another network that's covering --

AXELROD: And they believe it's partisan, which is what he is saying.

STEWART: And they think that there should be -- have been more Trump allies on the committee. And so they're looking at this as a partisan --

AXELROD: Should talk to McCarthy about that.

STEWART: Exactly. Exactly. They would look at this as a partisan witch hunt. They are not watching the tick-tock and the minute-by-minute of what happens in these hearings. They're getting their news elsewhere. And they're still looking at Donald Trump as the titular head of their party.

But we do have other options, which is a good thing.

LEMON: Something that happened in the White House that sent shockwaves through the White House when it happened, what the former president did on that day. That question is for Elie Honig. We're going to talk about that when we come right back.



LEMON: Tonight's January 6th hearing detailing how then-President Donald Trump did nothing for more than three hours to stop rioters attacking the Capitol.

Let's bring in now CNN senior law enforcement analyst and former FBI deputy director, Mr. Andrew McCabe. He is also the author of "The Threat: How the FBI Protects America in the Age of Terror and Trump."

Appreciate you joining us, Mr. McCabe. So listen, President Trump made no attempt to call any law enforcement

or military leaders during the riot. Not a single one. How effective was the committee in showing Trump's total dereliction of duty? You think they were strong enough?

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I think they were incredibly strong, Don. I think that the case that they make for dereliction of duty is complete. It's multifaceted. They have numerous witnesses. They have all sorts of evidence to point at.

The one thing that they don't have is a crime. Dereliction of duty is not a crime for a civilian in a leadership position. It is in the military code, but it's not in the federal criminal code.

So I think that what they're doing here is not making a case for a criminal trial, or even goading the attorney general to charge Trump with something based on that activity. But rather, making the case to the American people that this is someone who should not occupy a position of public trust at any time in the future. And I think that case was pretty well made.

LEMON: Liz Cheney made -- said that almost word for word for what you said in her closing arguments tonight.

You know, we also heard radio traffic of Oath Keepers reading Trump's tweets as they flooded the Capitol. A warning to our audience right now. I'm going to play some of it, and it's graphic. Here it is.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: CNN just said that they evacuated all members of Congress into a safety room.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no safe place in the United States for any of these motherfuckers right now, let me tell you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hope they understand that we are not joking around.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's military principle 105. Military principal 105. Cave means grave.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trump just tweeted, "Please support our Capitol Police. They are on our side. Do not harm them."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's saying a lot by what he didn't say. He didn't say not to do anything to the congressmen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, he did not ask them to stand down. He just said stand by the Capitol Police. They are on our side, and they are good people.

So, it's getting real down there. I've got it on TV, and it's -- it's looking pretty freaking radical to me. CNN said that Trump has egged this on, that he is egging it on. And that he is watching the country burn, two weeks before he leaves office. He is not leaving office. I don't give a shit what they say.


JESSICA WATKINS, FACING CHARGES RELATED TO JANUARY 6TH: We are in the Mezzanine. We are in the Main Dome right now. We are rocking it. They're throwing grenades. They're freaking hitting people with paint balls, but we're in here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Be safe, be safe. God bless and Godspeed and keep going.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get it, Jess! Do your shit. This is what we fucking lived up for, everything we fucking trained for.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're going to the Capitol. Overran the Capitol?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're in the fucking Capitol!


LEMON: I mean, look, there's a lot in there. They -- you know, they talk about CNN a lot, but they're watching.

The other thing is, I mean, what is this? Is this entitlement? Is this delusions of grandeur? I mean, you know, he's not leaving. Elie was sitting here and said that didn't age well.

I mean, these rioters were hanging on Trump's every word. Clearly, they saw him as a director of this attack.

MCCABE: Absolutely. I mean, there's two things that jumped out to me here. One is what you just mentioned. Like, we see how closely they are hanging on his every word, his every tweet, every utterance. Every -- everything he says, they interpret as some sort of a signal to action.

And the second thing is, as if we needed another example -- we really don't -- but if for any reason anyone out there believes that this was all just a group of, you know, people touring the Capitol, walking politely between the velvet ropes, you see through these recordings how deeply committed these people are.

LEMON: And he said -- they said, this is where we trained for; do your shit. That's what they said.

MCCABE: That's right. That's right. That's exactly right. This is a committed, deluded, violent group of people who are absolutely, 100 percent, behind this -- this man and his lies. And that is a very dangerous thing for this country.

LEMON: And Andrew, we also saw a video of rioters reacting to Trump telling them to disperse and go home. I mean, many of them, they did. Is it proof that Trump could have ended this sooner than he did?

MCCABE: It's absolutely proof. And look, we saw that from his own people, right? Sarah Matthews and others whose testimony we saw tonight. They knew. They were vociferously pushing Trump to make a statement, because they knew that his supporters listened very closely to what he says. And they do what he says. They know it would work.

And ultimately, it did, in a -- in a kind of a halfhearted way.

But this -- the connections here, the causal relationship is so obvious to anyone, who keeps an open mind and actually listens to the testimony and watches and observes the evidence.

LEMON: Have you -- have you observed or studied or witnessed that sort of behavior from the people who were there, saying you know, do your you-know-what. This is what we trained for. You know, CNN is reporting this there. Is that -- have you witnessed that sort of behavior from any group?

MCCABE: It's what you see, Don, in every group that is -- has hit that point of extremism, that is following the warped guidance of a charismatic leader; and is absolutely completely committed to the cause and willing to resort to violence as a result of it.

You see this in all extremist movements. You see this in the -- in the white supremacist movements, in the nationalist movements. You see it in Islamic extremist movements. It's the same basic cult of personality around a violent leader. It draws people into these -- into these structures of -- of obedience. And seeing everyone else as other and betrayal. You know, people who betray the -- the leader and must be eliminated. I mean, it's very kind of a classic pattern of extremism.

LEMON: Yes. It's fascinating. And sad.

Thank you, Andrew. Appreciate it.

MCCABE: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: The committee releasing new images of the former vice president on January 6th. We've got those. That's next.



LEMON: So, saw the testimony tonight of then-President Trump's refusal to call off the rioters at the United States Capitol on January 6th. As well as new insights into what was happening around Vice President Mike Pence as the crowd threatened to hang him.

David Axelrod is back. Alice Stewart, Elie Honig, as well.

So Elie, I promised this question. So the -- Trump knew the Capitol was under attack 15 minutes after leaving the January 6th Ellipse speech. And he sat in the dining room. He watched it take place. And, then he sent that 2:24P tweet slamming Pence. This is the thing that sent shockwaves through the White House.

HONIG: yes. Andy McCabe was correct in the last segment when he said, generally speaking, it's not a crime to do nothing, right?

However, it's relevant in a couple respects. First of all, if you're trying to prove as a prosecutor a broader conspiracy -- conspiracy to steal the election, to defraud the United States of a fair election, the conspiracy to obstruct Congress -- you need to show the person's intent.

And to me, the evidence we saw tonight clearly shows Donald Trump's intent was exactly what happened is what he wanted to happen. I mean, is there any reasonable dispute, now, about the fact that Donald Trump was happy with what he saw, wanted to let it continue?

AXELROD: Let me ask you a question. What about sending out a tweet threatening, calling the vice president a coward and saying he's let us all down, at the same time you're being told he is under threat?

LEMON: Putting his life in further danger.

HONIG: And that's an affirmative step. That's an actual act. That's way more than just doing nothing.

And we got really important context around that tonight. Because we know now that Trump knew. He was watching on TV. He knew what we all knew. The Capitol was under attack. And every one of his advisers was saying, You need to do the opposite. Tamp this down.

LEMON: Well, it inflamed supporters. The committee showed that video. Watch.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mike Pence will not stick up for Donald Trump. Mike Pence, traitor! Traitor!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mike Pence has screwed us in case you haven't heard yet.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened? What happened?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I keep hearing that Mike Pence has screwed us. That's the word. I keep hearing reports that Mike Pence has screwed us.



HONIG: The call and response is remarkable. And we've seen this before.

Remember the witness who testified, I think, at the last hearing, Ayres? The guy who pled guilty about storming the Capitol. He said, The reason we stopped was when Donald Trump finally --


HONIG: -- sent the video, yes, at 4:17. And then Ayres said, if he had sent that video an hour earlier, two hours earlier, we would've been out there then, as well. And I think this bears that out.

LEMON: David, we also got some new images and information to what Pence was doing as the riot unfolded. Watch this.


GEN. MARK MILLEY, CHAIRMAN, CHIEF JOINTS OF STAFF: Vice President Pence, I had two or three calls with Vice President Pence. He was very animated. And he issued very explicit, very direct, unambiguous orders. There was no question about that.

And I can get to the exact quotes, I guess, from some of our records. He was very animated, very direct, very firm. And to Secretary Miller. Get the military down here! Get the Guard down here! Put down this situation, et cetera.


LEMON: Meanwhile, he was not calling Pence or anyone in the military. Milley sounds disgusted there.

There's another soundbite with him saying, you've got the Capitol under assault, and the leader is doing nothing.

AXELROD: Well, then the chief of staff says, We've got to change the narrative to indicate that -- you know, because it looks like the president's not in charge. And, you know, and he was really disgusted about that.

I mean, it's really mind-boggling. Let me ask you guys something, though. What if he had marched down there? What would have happened if they had allowed him? If he had actually marched down to the Capitol with this crowd? What was he going to do?

LEMON: What was he going to do, like a, "Rah, rah, rah, go get 'em?"

AXELROD: I mean, it's really hard to imagine what he had in mind. Was he going to lead the -- the insurrection down there?

LEMON: Or just stand there like "Ahhh!"

STEWART: He clearly wanted the optics of him with his people, going out there and doing everything they could to stop what they've perceived as a fake election.

LEMON: Perhaps they should have let him. Because don't do think that would have been worse for him, in the end?

AXELROD: Yes, I don't think they were trying to provoke a riot. I mean, I don't think the people who stopped him wanted to provoke a riot. LEMON: But I think that would have been worse for him. Because he

would have put himself in the middle of this riot. And there would be all this video and footage of him.

HONIG: Remember what Pat Cipollone testified, if I could just add this. He said to Cassidy Hutchinson, "If we let that happen, if we let him go down there, we're going to break every law in the books."

LEMON: Right, we're going to break every law. We're going to be tried for every law -- every law known to man.


STEWART: Yes, so, fortunately, he did have some people, of, quote, "team normal" giving him good, sound, solid advice. Unfortunately, he didn't listen to it until it was too late in the day and much damage was done. Many people had died.

And, here we are now still trying having this conversation. But fortunately, he finally took the advice of people that he needed to call this off. Maybe it took Jared getting out of the shower to get the message to him. But he did get it.

LEMON: Yes, I thought that interesting that Jared -- we need to get Jared out of the shower.

AXELROD: That was strange.

LEMON: Oh, boy.

HONIG: He just got off a long flight. We all know the feeling.


LEMON: Thank you all. I appreciate it. It's good seeing you.

Secret Service witnesses lawyering up as more people corroborate the story about what happened in his SUV when Trump demanded to be taken to the Capitol. Stay with us.



LEMON: The committee revealing tonight that certain Secret Service witnesses have hired lawyers and may be willing to testify under oath.

Now, this development coming up after the testimony of Cassidy Hutchinson, the former aide to Mark Meadows, who relayed the story of Trump's apparent angry outbursts in the presidential SUV after agents told him he could not go to the Capitol following his speech to his supporters on the Ellipse on January 6th.

Well, tonight, the committee presenting evidence cooperating her testimony, which we'll hear in just a moment. But first, what Hutchinson told the committee. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FORMER AIDE TO TRUMP WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF MARK MEADOWS: The president said something to the effect of, I am the "F"-ing president. Take me up to the Capitol now.

To which Bobby responded, Sir, we have to go back to the West Wing.

The president reached up towards the front of the vehicle to grab at the steering wheel. Mr. Engel grabbed his arm. He said, Sir, you need to take your hand off the steering wheel. We're going back to the West Wing. We're not going to the Capitol.

Mr. Trump then used his free hand to lunge towards Bobby -- Bobby Engel. And Mr. Ornato had recounted the story to me, he had motioned towards his clavicles.


LEMON: Now, let's hear the testimony the committee presented tonight.


LURIA: We have evidence from multiple sources regarding an angry exchange in the presidential SUV, including testimony we will disclose today from two witnesses who confirmed that a confrontation occurred.

The first witness is a former White House employee with national security responsibilities. After seeing the initial violence of the Capitol on TV, the individual went to see Tony Ornato, the deputy chief of staff, in his office.

Mr. Ornato was there with Bobby Engel, the president's lead Secret Service agent. This employee told us that Mr. Ornato said that the president was, quote, "irate" when Mr. Engel refused to drive into the Capitol. Mr. Engel did not refute what Mr. Ornato said.


The second witness is retired Sergeant Mark Robinson of the D.C. Police Department, who was assigned to the president's motorcade that day. He sat in the lead vehicle with the Secret Service agent responsible for the motorcade. Also called the T.S. agent. Here's how Sergeant Robinson remembered the exchange.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was there any description of what -- of what was occurring in the car?

SGT. MARK ROBINSON, RETIRED, D.C. POLICE DEPARTMENT: No, only that, the only description I received was that the president was upset and that was adamant about going to the Capitol; and that there was a heated discussion about that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And when you say heated, is that your word or is the word that was described by the T.S. agent? ROBINSON: No, the word described by the T.S. agent, meaning that the

president was upset. And he was saying there was a heated argument or discussion about going to the Capitol.


LEMON: Well, Sergeant Robinson was then asked if he ever witnessed another argument or heated discussion where the president was contradicting the role of the Secret Service in trying to keep the chief executive safe. He said he never did.

Stay with us. We've got much more on tonight's primetime January 6th Committee hearing as Congresswoman Liz Cheney is saying the dam has begun to break.