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Don Lemon Tonight

DOJ Filed An Appeal To 11th Circuit; Governor Ron DeSantis Trying To Justify His Action; Immigrants Are Left Wandering For Their Fate; Words Without Action Resolves Nothing; More Funds Needed By Immigrants In Martha's Vineyard; Classes Rattled By Hoax Messages; Football Legend Shows His Respect And Humility. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired September 16, 2022 - 22:00   ET




LAURA COATES, CNN HOST: Thanks for watching. DON LEMON TONIGHT starts right now. Hey, Don Lemon.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Hello, Laura Coates. And look at that all Fuchsia. Is that the right thing? Glowing in Fuchsia on a Friday evening.

COATES: What? What this, what this look? You like the whole?

LEMON: This whole thing. Wait, were you posing, was that a model pose?

COATES: It was, it was a catalog model as pose. Maybe had a Sears. I don't know. I'm not really much of a model, but you know, I want to know what your favorite Disney movie was. Are you going to -- I'm -- I want to know. I want to know, first of all, what character you would've played in a Disney movie of your, I know you can sing, so I know it'll be a musical, which one.

LEMON: Gosh. I don't know. My director is saying Ariel. I'm going to say, I don't know.

COATES: I'm going to see you as Ariel. OK.

LEMON: I have no -- Disney. I don't know. Can I be a mouse? I have no idea. Can I be Mickey? I want to be Mickey.


LEMON: Mickey is black.

COATES: I don't see -- I don't quite see you as mousey. Is Mickey black? Are we having this conversation? OK. OK. I'll be over here. Thank you so much. I'll just --


LEMON: It's going to be a whole thing about Santa and Jesus. But Mickey is --

COATES; There will be a whole moment. I just want you to know, I, I was the Fuchsia the color just now.


COATES: It's all --

LEMON: I do love what -- I do love the new Ariel though. I think it's amazing. I think what, it's amazing what it's doing for kids, and diversity. And so, I think it's great. And for opening people's eyes to their own issues, whether they realize they have them or not.

COATES: That's a whole another conversation. Do you know you have issues.

LEMON: That's a whole --

COATES: It's Friday night. Do you know what your issues are?

LEMON: Yes. This is a whole, that's a whole another show, and this is a whole another show now. Thank you, Laura. I'll see you. Have a great weekend.

COATES: Bye, Don.

LEMON: Thank you.

COATES: You, too.


And this is just in that we need to talk about. The DOJ just moments ago asking an appeals court to put on hold parts of the judge's order requiring the third -- a third party review of the materials from the FBI search of Mar-a-Lago last month. The DOJ asking for the 11th circuit to take, take action, quote, "as soon as practicable."

Now, according to the filing tonight, just one day after the appointment of a special master, and I'm quoting now from the filing. "Although the government believes a district court fundamentally erred in appointing a special master and granting injunctive relief, the government seeks to stay only the portions of the order causing the most serious and immediate harm to the government and the public. One, restricting the government's review and use of records, bearing classification, markings, and two, requiring the government to disclose those records for a special master review process."

The DOJ asking for the court to allow its criminal investigators to review the materials marked as classified and for the court to exclude those documents from the special master's review of the search. It is a fight that could go all the way to the Supreme Court.

So, we must talk about this now. I want to get right to CNN's justice correspondent, Jessica Schneider, CNN legal analyst and former assistant U.S. attorney, Jennifer Rodgers, and former assistant special Watergate prosecutor, Nick Akerman.

Thank you all for joining tonight.

Jessica, I'm going to start with you. What can you tell us about what the DOJ is saying in this Friday night filing?

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Don, they're really asking for limited relief here. And so, they're telling this court, hey look, we want two things that the lower court judge, Aileen Cannon refused to give us when she ruled last night.

First, they want to be allowed to continue what's been this ongoing criminal investigation into these classified documents and they want to do it unimpeded. Meaning they want to resume using those 100 classified documents that Judge Cannon has said that they can't use, whether it's in grand jury proceedings or with witnesses. So, they want the 11th circuit to reverse that.

Plus, they're saying that they shouldn't have to turn over the classified documents to Trump's legal team or the special master here who's been appointed. They say that the lower court judge was just wrong to order the disclosure of those highly sensitive documents all in the midst of this ongoing investigation.

And what's even more interesting here is that on a broader scale, DOJ is really arguing that courts just shouldn't even be stepping in here at all on this issue because the documents belong to the government. So, they wrote it this way. They say, allowing the government to use and review the records bearing classification markings for criminal investigative purposes would not cause any cognizable injury to plaintiff.

Plaintiff has no property or other legal interest in those records. Plaintiff has identified no cognizable harm for merely allowing criminal investigators to continue to review and use the same subset of the seized records.

And then they kind of took at the, a shot at the district court here, saying that is why courts have exercised great caution before interfering through civil actions with criminal investigations or cases.

So, Don, I mean, the DOJ really asking for limited relief here, but not shying away from taking a shot at the district court and what she's done in this case so far.


LEMON: So, Jennifer Rodgers, so they're not appealing in full. Do you think this strengthens their argument to continue their investigation?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: A hundred percent Don. Because it shows restraint. It's very, very reasonable. They're really just appealing what they saw, the relief they saw from the district court. This last time around just these 100 documents about which there is clearly irreparable harm to the government for not being able to use them in the criminal case.

They point out that it also impacts the intelligence assessment and they don't want to turn these things over to the special master for review by him. And of course, by plaintiff, Donald Trump and his team. So what's going to be interesting is the special master has a hearing on Tuesday. If the circuit doesn't act in time for that hearing, what will Judge Dearie do?

He's been instructed to start with those 100 documents in his review. So, we'll have to see what he does if he there's no stay before then.

LEMON: You said that they're appealing to be -- they are appearing to be very reasonable. I mean, but is that, you think that's prudent in this process, especially considering what everyone has -- everyone's assessment of the judge and the judge's rulings?

RODGERS: Well, I think they, you know, they -- they're -- they're thinking -- they're thinking strategically about what to do here. If they appealed the whole thing, I think it's more likely that the 11th circuit wouldn't grant what they're seeking, because there's so many different kinds of documents in the 11,000 plus that were seized on August 8th.

By keeping it narrow to these classified documents about which the law and the facts are so clear that there are no possible privileges that could apply that would allow Donald Trump to have possession of those. It's just so clean. It's much easier for the 11th circuit to make that ruling and to make it very quickly.

LEMON: Nick Akerman, I mean, how long could this appeals process be dragged out as it moves through the courts here? And if it does reach the Supreme Court at all.

NICK AKERMAN, FORMER ASSISTANT SPECIAL WATERGATE PROSECUTOR: Well, it could, but I believe you're going to see a three-judge panel look at this pretty quickly and decide it. After that, I suppose, if Donald Trump loses or the government loses, you have the right to ask for a full court ruling an embank ruling it's called, which will be the entire court in the 11th circuit. That could take a little bit of time.

But again, the issues here are so simple. I mean, the government is just making three simple points. One, that Donald Trump has no ownership interest in these documents. These are classified documents that belong to the government.

Two, the government is going to be irreparably harmed by virtue of the fact that it can't continue its criminal investigation without those documents and to try and desegregate take -- take apart the national security part and the criminal investigation part opens them up to possible contempt later on if the judge doesn't like what they did.

And three, they're concerned that Trump's lawyers are going to get to look at these documents. And the third point they make is there's no harm to Donald Trump from doing this. Now, if this went to the Supreme Court, again, because these issues are so simple, this could happen very quickly. On the other hand, I think it's very likely that this will never make it that far and go beyond the 11th circuit. I think the 11th circuit will deal with it. However, it comes out will be the ruling.

LEMON: Interesting. So, Jennifer, the New York Times is reporting tonight about e-mails revealing confusion and infighting among the former president's lawyers. One former Trump White House attorney tried to get answers from Trump's current legal team before testifying before a grand jury. But after not getting answers, he got one he didn't agree with to just assert broad claims of executive privilege.

The Times quotes one of his e-mails to Trump's camp as saying, and I quote here, "I certainly am not relying on any legal analysis from either of you or Boris, who, to be clear, I think is an idiot."

So Herschmann is referring to Trump, in Trump's in-house counsel and aide, Boris Epstein but he's -- he's really an important witness, a former Trump White House lawyer and Trump's current team can't give him direction. That is a problem.

RODGERS: Yes. Listen, Trump has had trouble for years now attracting top legal talent, not including of course the White House counsel's office when he was the president. And Eric Herschmann, who's the one you're -- you're talking about who was seeking guidance has been very critical of Trump and his actions post-election and pre-January 6th. We saw his testimony in the January 6th hearings.

But it is notable that despite the fact that they knew executive privilege was an issue here, they were trying to have all these witnesses asserted. They didn't have any answers for people about what -- what the scope of that was. That's just bad lawyering.


And the other interesting thing that you didn't mention, Don, that the article does is that the answer back to Eric Herschmann was, you know, don't worry, we have a chief judge who's going to give us a very broad ruling about former presidents and asserting executive privilege. That's kind of an interesting point. I hope that someone is going to look into that claim.

LEMON: Wow. So, Jessica, CNN confirming reporting tonight that last year's Trump's -- last year, Trump's lawyers told the National Archives boxes of records at Mar-a-Lago were just newspaper clippings, but clearly that wasn't true. What do we know.

SCHNEIDER: Yes. So, this was, you know, was all part of this back and forth between the archives and Trump's team really, for months when the archives was trying to get these presidential records back, eventually they did a few months ago in January.

So, our Jamie Gangel has actually learned that it was then deputy White House counsel, Pat Philbin. He was on the phone with the archives in September, 2021. And he said that Trump's chief of staff, Mark Meadows had assured him that the boxes remaining at Mar-a-Lago only contained newspaper clippings. Nothing classified. And he also said no documents had been destroyed.

But of course, we know now that that just wasn't true. And it's a revelation that's just really another layer here in the question of how much Trump, his allies, his team, how much were they hiding and could that potentially lead to any obstruction charge from DOJ? Because we know that's one of the charges that they've been looking into.

Now, when it comes to Patrick Philbin, a source is actually telling my colleague Evan Perez, that Philbin has long said he was unaware of the contents of the boxes that remained at Mar-a-Lago or if there was any classified material. And tonight, we still are waiting to hear from the archives, Don, but we had -- have heard from a spokesperson from Mark Meadows who says this.

They say, Mr. Meadows did not personally review the boxes at Mar-a- Lago. Did not have a role in examining or verifying what was or wasn't contained in them. So, everyone is sort of pointing the other way saying, I never knew it was in these even though maybe they said that nothing major was in them. We'll see. Yes.

LEMON: So, everything -- everybody is pointing, you know, to the person next to them or someone else.


LEMON: So, Nick, you heard Meadows -- Meadows' denial and Feldman says that he was unaware of the contents of the boxes, but do you think they're in legal trouble?

AKERMAN: I think Mark Meadows is in a huge heap of legal trouble.


AKERMAN: I mean, it's not just relating to these boxes. It's also relating to the January 6th situation. I mean, if you had to pick one person that the government is going to focus on, bring charges against and turn into a government witness. It's going to be Mark Meadows.

I mean, he originally started to cooperate with the January 6th committee, gave them a bunch of e-mails, but then when Donald Trump started going at him on the internet and calling him all kinds of names and backing him into a corner, he just clammed up.

But he is a weak individual and I vote him most likely to turn, and be a government witness before this is all over.

LEMON: Thank you, Nick. Thank you, Jessica. Thank you, Jennifer. I appreciate it. I'll see you guys soon.

We've got a lot more to come tonight on the DOJ asking an appeals court to intervene in the Mar-a-Lago classified documents filed.

Plus, 50 desperate people, men, women, and children fleeing Venezuela and seeking asylum in the United States only to be dumped in Martha's Vineyard. Is it all just a cynical game of own the libs.


GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D-CA): You saw those young girls with backpacks, no older than his children, my children, being used as political pawns, and now he's using it to fundraise, to raise money. It's disgraceful. He's a disgrace.




LEMON: Florida's Republican Governor Ron DeSantis promising to send more migrants to Democratic cities. Tonight, the migrants seen on planes to Martha's Vineyard moved to a military base on Cape Cod.

CNN's Miguel Marquez has the latest on how these people say they were misled and lured to Massachusetts.


MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After less than 48 unexpected hours in Martha's Vineyard, nearly 50 Venezuelan migrants were given a warm send off. Volunteers embracing each person as they boarded buses. Then ferries and onto the next part of their long journey.

Their unannounced arrival Wednesday, all part of a campaign by Texas Governor Greg Abbott and Florida Governor Ron DeSantis to send migrants to so called sanctuary cities by surprise.

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL): All we're trying to do is offer transport to sanctuary jurisdictions free to the -- to the alien, but certainly not mandatory. And that way, they're able to go. And these sanctuary jurisdictions can put their money where their mouth is.

MARQUEZ: These immigrants were picked up in Texas. Some of them say they weren't taken to a hotel to wait. Then boarded planes.

"Well, we didn't know until last minute, our destinations such as New York, where our relatives reside," he says. Yang Pablo Mora and other immigrants we spoke to here say they were promised all sorts of things, including jobs and housing, things that never materialized.

"We were told it was humanitarian aid by a foundation that in this case remains unknown," he says. It's just the latest account of migrants seemingly, deceived and dropped off. From Washington, D.C. --

UNKNOWN: They felt fooled, and they felt that -- that their suffering was exploited.

MARQUEZ: To confusion in New York City.

MANUEL CASTRO, COMMISSIONER, NYC MAYOR'S OFFICE OF IMMIGRANT AFFAIRS: Standing at port authority he asked me, and how -- how do I get to Portland, Oregon.

MARQUEZ: To California where Governor Gavin Newsom has asked the Department of Justice to open an investigation into the controversial practice.

NEWSOM: What Ron DeSantis is doing is disgrace. It's almost monstrous.

DESANTIS: They did get a packet that had the map of Martha's Vineyard and they're also treated, you know, very well with all this. I mean, they're, they're treated well with meals and everything.


MARQUEZ: While volunteers and officials in Martha's Vineyard promptly responded and cared for their unexpected guests. Lawyers assisting the immigrants say the stop did nothing but detour already desperate people.

RACHEL SELF, LAWYER ASSISTING IMMIGRANTS, MARTHA'S VINEYARD: It is sickeningly cruel throwing obstacles in the way of people fleeing violence and oppression. Some of whom walked through 10 countries in the hopes of finding safe -- safety.

LISA BELCASTRO, VOLUNTEER: My heart breaks for them because they were not the first priority. They're in my heart forever. I don't know what else to say.


MARQUEZ (on camera): So, look, there is no doubt that these immigrants were helped out by the people here on Martha's Vineyard, that even -- they even raised money here on the vineyard and across the country to help them out going forward. A substantial amount, almost $200,000 as of today that will help them going forward.

But, you know, all these migrants that we spoke to they had legal issues going forward. Most, if not all of them are claiming asylum because they are fleeing repression in Venezuela. And they've had a very difficult journey so far, sending them to Martha's Vineyard only complicated that very long journey. Don?

LEMON: Thank you, Miguel. I appreciate that. I want to bring in now CNN senior political commentator David Axelrod. He's a former Obama senior advisor, and Charlie Dent -- we have an issue there. We'll fix that. Charlie Dent, a former Republican Congressman from Pennsylvania.

Good evening. So, who do I have? Do I have Charlie? We got Charlie. OK. So, we'll get David up. We had a problem with a signal where we'll get them up.

Charlie, thanks for joining. So, it appears that these migrants were misled, lured on planes with the promise of jobs, all for a political stunt. That is obvious. What is DeSantis trying to accomplish here is cruelty to the point is getting on conservative media, getting his face on conservative media or voice. Is that the point? What, what is it?

CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, I think that is the point. This is a political stunt, but he's also trying to make a point. There is a real problem at the southern border. I'm not saying so much in Florida, but certainly in Texas and the other border states with Mexico. I believe federal agents have apprehended nearly two million people this year.

LEMON: Charlie, can I jump in here? Because I think you make a very good point.

DENT: Yes.

LEMON: There is an issue. No one is denying. I mean, no one should deny that there's an issue at the southern border. The question is, how do you fix it? Is this the right way to fix it? Now, look, and I'm all about and I spoke to, you know, Congressman Allred last night. There should be a shared burden and it shouldn't just be the people, the folks on the southern border, states and places on the southern border who are dealing with this.

But what is -- what is the right way to fix it rather than making this some sort of political point or ploy or, you know, I don't know, scheme or scam that they're doing.

DENT: What I would do if I were a President Biden right now, I convene a meeting with the vice president. I would bring in the homeland security secretary. I would bring in the governors from the affected states, including Ron DeSantis, bring him to the White House and talk about how we're going to solve this problem together.

Because it's true that the border states don't have the infrastructure to deal with all this. Remember, this is a few months in the -- in Texas we had, you know, I guess a couple thousand or a few hundred Haitian migrants living under a bridge for heaven's sake. And, but by the same token, putting people on buses and sending them up in into the interior of the country without a plan, isn't a solution either.

But this does cry out for a real solution. And I served on the homeland security committee for six years, Don. I can tell you, you know, I dealt with some of these issues. They need more detention beds, they need more immigration judges, they need access roads on the border. And they have to deal with the legal system of immigration that is broken.

We have to fix this DREAMer situation. We have to fix the agricultural visa system. Congress and the president really need a solution and they all have to be part of this and they have to include these governors. What they're doing, sending these migrants up really is not helpful. But they're just trying to amplify their messages and points, score political points.

You're right. They're trying to, you know, make hay out of this politically and maybe they are with the base, but it doesn't solve the problem. LEMON: Well, here's what I think is important that folks at home

should know. Because Charlie is a Republican, he brings up a very good point. We're talking about sensible solutions to this rather than a political talking point for the midterms or for someone trying to have, make political gain out of this, which is what we often hear from analysts and, you know, contributors here on CNN.

You're talking real issues, real ways to fix it. And I think that's what we should be doing rather than saying, well, this is what's going to make a difference for Republicans or for Democrats come midterms. That doesn't serve anyone except for that only serves politics and politicos.


David, DeSantis tweeted this photo of former President Obama's Martha's Vineyard home with the message. Seven bedrooms with eight and a half bathrooms in a 6,800 -- 6,892 square foot house on nearly 30 acres. Plenty of space.

Look, a lot of the Republican politicians who are doing this have lots of money as well and have property. I don't see what the point is that President Obama, who has worked really hard and who has now wealth. The former president, Donald Trump has wealth as well. He's not allowing these people to camp out on his golf courses, so I'm not sure what the point is. How much of this is just trolling Democrats?

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I think the answer is within your question, Don, I mean, this, I totally agree with what Charlie just said. Charlie is often very sensible, which is why he's sitting with us and not the Republican caucus on the hill tonight.

But, you know, I think that there is a problem that needs to be solved. That is not what Governor DeSantis was about in in snatching up these folks and sending them to Martha's Vineyard. Of course, it was a troll and it plays very well with the Republican base.

Listen, he is auditioning as the understudy for Donald Trump in 2024. And he is trying to outdo Trump in tactics here. But that doesn't solve the problem. If you -- if we can all agree there's a problem. The question is whether you want to help solve it or whether you want to exploit it.

And, obviously he's trying to exploit it. And the Obama thing is catnip for the base.


AXELROD: You know, he's doing very well with this stuff. I mean, he is doing this constantly. That's all he does is troll and throws, you know, throws shade at what he thinks, you know, at the base things are liberals. But it doesn't solve it.

And let me just say one other thing. I would think these were 50 ref -- refugees from Venezuela from the horrific regime in Venezuela. He has a lot of Venezuelan Americans in his own state. You would think he'd be a little bit more solicitous of people who are fleeing that regime and not use them as a political prop --


LEMON: And who are claiming asylum David, which is, which is the right thing to do when, if they come and claim asylum because of what's going on there. But I mean, listen, if, look, if all things were equal, perhaps he should be saying he should be sending people to Trump tower here in New York or maybe should be sending them to Mar-a- Lago, or maybe he should be sending them to Bedminster. Because certainly those places are bigger than, and have more facilities to be able to house these people than the former President Barack Obama's home.


AXELROD: Or maybe we should just have, or maybe we should -- maybe we should just have a serious discussion about --


LEMON: That's what -- that's my whole point.

AXELROD: -- this collapsed asylum system.

LEMON: I'm trying to point out the ridiculousness of what he did.

AXELROD: I mean, that would be very productive.

LEMON: Yes, right.


LEMON: Charlie, I'll give you the last word.

DENT: Look on the asylum system, the asylum system is broken too. Many of the migrants who are coming into this country from Central America and Venezuela well are economic migrants. They're not necessarily legitimate asylum cases. So, we do have to fix this. It's really important because it's being abused.

And by the way, on the Venezuelan question, I'd be very careful if I were Ron DeSantis, many Venezuelans are like many of the Cuban Americans who've come escaping, you know, a socialist or communist regime. And many of them are inclined to support Republican candidates. And I think he has to be very careful that he's not showing himself to be too insensitive or too inhumane to Venezuelans.

Because a lot of those Venezuelans down in south Florida are probably sympathetic to their brethren who are here. And many of them, as I said, are voting Republican. And so, I think there's a little bit of a political peril here for Governor DeSantis pushing pretty hard on the Venezuela.

LEMON: It's always good to have you, Charlie. I applaud your comment sense approach to this and pointing out what is real and what is obvious here instead of going for, you know, make -- trying to make political gain out of it. And David, good to have you. Sorry about the technical difficulties, but we'll see you soon.

AXELROD: Thanks.

LEMON: Have a great weekend, everyone.

AXELROD: No worries.

LEMON: Thanks so much.

As Miguel Marquez reported, many migrants are saying that they were misled. My next guest says that their legal rights were violated and he's going to fight for them. That's next?



LEMON: The Martha's Vineyard community coming together to help 50 migrants unexpectedly transported there by Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, along with raising money. Some like my next guest are setting up and offering their legal services.

So, joining me now Oren Sellstrom, he's the litigation director of Lawyers for Civil Rights.

Oren, thank you. How you doing?


LEMON: I'm great. Thank you for joining us. So, listen, you are organizing this attorneys' -- attorneys locally to help these migrants. We are learning of stories about how they were misled about where they were going and the help that they would get if they got on these planes and buses. So, tell us about what you're hearing.

SELLSTROM: Well, we at lawyers for civil rights began hearing about the situation within hours of when the planes touched down in Martha's Vineyard. People recognized that in addition to other needs that these newly arrived immigrants would have, there were significant legal issues that were presented.

So, our team of attorneys were on the ground in Martha's Vineyard the following morning and had been there since assessing legal needs, interviewing clients, trying to get to the bottom of exactly what happened, what misrepresentations were made and making sure that our client's legal rights are protected.


LEMON: OK. So, listen, tell me if this is true. Right. and I understand that you're -- you're hearing about migrants being given falsified addresses on their paperwork with their asylum hearings taking place not in Massachusetts, but in states across the country.

What are the implications of all that? I mean, how can they possibly make those hearings? Is that true? Are they being -- given false information and are they in danger of missing their hearings and so on?

SELLSTROM: Absolutely. That is one of the key things that we are prioritizing, and our legal triage is making sure that people's legal rights to immigration relief is protected. People were told when they got on the planes in Texas, don't worry about immigration hearings that you may have here in Texas because that will be taken care.

And now, all of a sudden, people are here in Massachusetts. Many of them have court dates hearings that are as early as next week. And they're thousands of miles away. So that is certainly something that our team of attorneys is working to make sure that people's rights to immigration relief is not prejudiced.

LEMON: So then. what is -- if this is happening, right? What are the legal consequences for the people who are putting them on these buses or are falsifying this information? Do they have any exposure?

SELLSTROM: Well, that's a great question. And we think certainly the answer is yes, that there's liability, both civilly and criminally. Our clients' civil rights were violated. They were fraudulently induced to get on a plane with false representations, false promise made flown across state lines under false pretenses.

And we know that those -- that is a violation of their civil rights. We have also asked for both federal and state law enforcement officials to open investigations into criminal laws that may have been broken because we believe that is the case as well.

LEMON: Governor Ron DeSantis is vowed to transport more migrants using every penny of taxpayer money the state has out -- the state has allocated for the process. Listen to this.


DESANTIS: I'll tell you this. The legislature gave me $12 million. We're going to spend every penny of that to make sure that we're protecting the people, the state of Florida.


LEMON: Listen, besides this being an obvious craven political stunt, does this do anything to stop the migrant crisis at the border?

SELLSTROM: Of course not. It's, as you say, a political stunt and that's all it is. You know, there are conversations to be had about immigration reform and many folks from all sides of the political spectrum. You know, may say that that's a debate that's worth having to provide more path to citizenship, for example.

But using human beings as political props is not the way to have that conversation. We have to recognize the humanity in these issues if we're ever going to get anywhere to solve any of the world's problems. And so, using people as tools for some goal is absolutely the wrong way to go about and is never going to get to solutions that may be viable.

LEMON: Oren, thank you. Will you come back and update us, please? We really appreciate what you're doing and we thank you for appearing.

SELLSTROM: Thank you.

LEMON: Thank you. It's called swatting. Hoax phone calls meant to spark a big police response. Now multiple schools are falling victim to false active shooter reports. Is there anything that can be done to stop it?



LEMON: At least three school districts receiving hoax calls today. In Lee County, Florida, schools locked down after the Sheriff's office was notified of a threat to the school district.

In Hollywood, Florida, police responded to a call saying that there was a possible threat at a high school there. And in Arkansas, students were dismissed earlier after receiving a community threat at a local high school. None of these threats turned out to be real, by the way. And they come after a number of other hoax phone calls, claiming active shooting incidents at schools earlier this week.

The FBI says that they're aware of these swatting incidents. And they remain unaware of any actual credible threats.

Joining me now, John Miller, CNN's chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst.

Good to see you. Thank you.


LEMON: I appreciate it. This is disturbing, John. These -- there are three of these hoax phone calls in one day. Others happening earlier this week. Why is this happening?

MILLER: So, what you have behind this is you've got people using hacked Google phone numbers that don't trace back to the actual callers. You've got people using voiceover I.P. numbers. They're using these apps where you sign up with an e-mail that you just signed up anonymously for that day and got rid of the next day.

So, using these encrypted platforms in this anonymity, it's very hard to get back to who's behind it. But we do know you got a lot of kids. And when I say kids, I mean teenagers and north of teenagers, you got people, 20s going into their 30s. You have them in foreign countries and here stateside, and these are largely gamers and they play the game, say call of duty or grant theft auto. And then the loser has to go SWAT some target. And if they don't, then they get swatted.

There's a case in Wichita where one of these swatting happened. One of the players was swatted, but he'd given a false address. And when police got there to a report of a father holding his family hostage at gunpoint, the man who lived at the address came outside to see what the police were doing there.


He made a sudden move was shot and killed.


MILLER: That gamer in Virginia was sentenced to 20 years for --


MILLER: -- involuntary manslaughter because he caused that death.


MILLER: So, this is a real problem.

LEMON: OK. So, you said it's encrypted and it's tough for police to figure it out.

MILLER: But not impossible.

LEMON: That's what I was going to say, but not impossible. How do police go about catching these guys?

MILLER: So, in the NYPD working with subpoenas and providers and working the social media and tags around those people. And I want to be limited on the details, because I don't want to tell them where they're leaving the clues. But you can piece it together. The FBI's done a lot of these cases. People are getting arrested.

But if you look in 2019, in 2020, every historically black college and university was hit with active shooter squad.

LEMON: We covered that. I'm not sure. Did we have you on to talk about that? But I remember we covered that. I'm not sure.

MILLER: I mean, that was a plague. If you looked at what happened in New York City in 2021, '22 school year, those leads and threats were up 106 percent. And it's not a game, it's not funny. And you know, people do face serious time when they're caught.

LEMON: Yes. They -- when police are responding to these, they're going out on these active shooter situations in schools, or what have you, they're going out in full gear. They're ready to respond all of this full alert, ready to engage with a perpetrator if necessary. Could be catastrophic as a result. You just said, you just gave us an incident of one, but they could actually kill someone. And it has happened on a fake call. MILLER: And I mean, look at -- look at the parade of terrible here,

which is you're a police officer. They say there's an active shooter in a school. We're all living right now, Don, in the -- in the shadow of Uvalde, Texas. And they're thinking I need to get there. I need to be sharp. I need to engage. I have to be looking for that threat.

And when they come through the door looking for an active shooter, who are they confronting? They're confronting children, students, teachers, staffers that are now frightened to death because they don't know what's coming. It's a bad scenario. And it's -- it's a trend that's been disturbingly growing because of all of the anonymity offered by the tools that you can hide behind.

LEMON: In addition to taking lives which you talked about, but it also takes up resources and time.

MILLER: I mean, there's a call of real emergency that's not being answered when all of your resources are going to that school. And there's something else about, you know, when you're getting these threats and they're all the same, and they're going to multiple locations about, you know, they're evacuating buildings. And they're evacuating buildings for threats that they already know are false.

We've talked a lot about kind of retooling the procedures, which is if it's an obviously false threat, deny the objective. Why give them what they're looking for which is to cause disturbance and fear.

LEMON: So, so then what do you do then? What do you say to these folks? Because they think, well, I'm anonymous. I'm never going to be caught, but that's not necessarily true.

MILLER: Not necessarily true. I mean, that guy from the Wichita case is doing his 20 years and his two friends pled guilty and are doing time as well.

LEMON: Yes, John Miller, always a pleasure. Good to see you.

MILLER: Thanks, Don.

LEMON: Thank you, sir. So English football legend we say soccer here. David Beckham, by the way, he's paying his respects to the queen, Queen Elizabeth, and he did it after waiting more than 13 hours in line with the rest of the public. I'll tell you about it next.



LEMON: People in London still waiting hours for their chance to pay their respects to the queen, including David Beckham. He spent more than 13 hours in line, just like everyone else. Here's what the English football legend told ITV earlier today.


DAVID BECKHAM, FOOTBALL PLAYER: I thought by coming at 2 a.m., it was going to be a little bit quieter. I was wrong. Everybody wants to be here to be part of this experience and celebrate what her majesty has done for us.


LEMON: So, with just two days left before her state funeral, the estimated wait time to see the queen is at least 25 hours right now. Hope you'll join me, Anderson Cooper, Erin Burnett, Monday 5 a.m. Eastern as the U.K. and the world remember the queen. We'll be right back.



LEMON: This is just in to CNN. Tonight, the DOJ asking an appeals court to put on hold parts of the judge's order requiring a third- party review of the materials from the FBI search of Mar-a-Lago last month. The DOJ asking for the 11th circuit to take action, quote, "as soon as practicable." Going on to ask the court to allow its criminal investigators to review the materials marked as classified and exclude those documents from the special master's review of the search.

So here to discuss CNN's justice correspondent, Jessica Schneider, CNN senior legal analyst, Elie Honig, and CNN county terrorism analyst Philip Mudd.

Good evening to all of you. I appreciate it.

Jessica, I'm going to start with you for the reporting here. The DOJ, the Justice Department filing an appeal asking the appeals court to intervene in this Mar-a-Lago classified documents fight. So, what do you know?

SCHNEIDER: Yes. So there really seem to be strategic about this, Do. You know, they're filing with really a limited appeal here. So, they're asking the 11th circuit to step in immediately and do two things. First, they want the court to clear the way so prosecutors can resume using the classified documents that they recovered from Mar-a- Lago as part of their criminal probe.

You know, the lower court judge halted that said, you can't use those classified documents. And DOJ's also saying that Trump's legal team and the newly appointed special master should not have access at all to those documents.

So, they wrote it this way. They said, although the government believes the district court fundamentally erred in appointing a special master and granting injunctive relief, the government seeks to stay only the portions of the order causing the most serious and immediate harm to the government in public. By one, restricting the government's review of use of classified records, varying classification markings. And two, requiring the government to disclose those records for a special master review process.

So, Don, you know, this is a limited appeal and it's possible that with this limited appeal that the 11th circuit actually might act pretty quickly here.

LEMON: But Jessica, the DOJ seemed to have a message for district Judge Aileen Cannon. What did it say?


SCHNEIDER: Yes. Right. It was interesting the last part of this appeal here, DOJ really seemed to take a shot at the lower court judge here. And they said that she was just plainly wrong. Even stepping into this dispute when it comes to classified documents since they said they're clearly the government's property.