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America Under Attack; Sen. John McCain is Interviewed About The Attack On America; Congress Discuss Possible Declaration Of War; Sen. Joseph Lieberman, (D-CT), Is Interviewed About The Attack On America; Sen. Joseph Biden, (D-DE), Is Interviewed About The Attack On America; Sen. Jon Kyl, (R-AZ), Is Interviewed About The Attack On America. Aired 8:30-10p ET

Aired September 12, 2001 - 20:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[20:30:00]

RAY KELLY, FMR. N.Y. POLICE COMMISSIONER: -- way hard, but certainly the standards are not very high. There's tremendous turnover. That's something that I believe has to change right now and in the near term. It's just -- it's a silly interest on us.

GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, CNN HOST: Ray, what do you make of the fact that they were able to get knives in box cutters? I mean, it wasn't simply one slip, one person. I mean, this was a plan, four different flights of them.

KELLY: Undoubtedly, it was a plan and I'm sure it was practiced. It was something that they just didn't do for the first time.

You know, if you look at the FAA tests that they do, virtually every major airport each year, some of the failure rates are as high as 80 percent. So, it's an area that that needs to be looked at, it needs to be changed radically. It drifted so much, since the 70s, when we first started these types of security checks.

VAN SUSTEREN: You know, Bill, when I hear him say, 80 percent failure that apparently we've known there's an 80 percent failure in the security on these questions and getting weapons under planes, I must admit, I'm scandalized. I mean, is this what's been happening in our airports?

BILL HINSHAW, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: I suppose it has, it's what the test show. But until we have an event such as this, it didn't really come to become a national event.

VAN SUSTEREN: Ray, obviously, the pilots of these planes have gone down. But there are a lot of people that may have helped these pilots commit this horrible crime. How do we find the others, the ones who may have helped a little bit and therefore are coconspirators and just as responsible?

KELLY: Well, you do the classic backtracking investigation. Just what the FBI is doing now you're checking rental car records, you're checking itinerary. I mean, we've seen it, we saw it in 1999 with Ahmed Ressam.

We know that Canada is clearly an easy point of entry for people that come from places like the Middle East. Get into Canada and come across our border.

Last year, we had almost a half a billion visitors into the United States. We need a much stronger border protection. We tried to get that in Congress after Ahmed Ressam came across the Millennium in 1999. And there was quite frankly, no response.

We need a much more robust examination of people coming into the United States. It hasn't changed, certainly in the last two years. And that was -- Ressam came in with a 150 pounds of explosive and was headed for LAX. He was convicted. He also by the way, pointed towards Osama bin Laden.

So, I mean, more and more evidence is being accumulated that points to bin Laden as our major enemy in this area.

VAN SUSTEREN: Bill, how easy to get into these cockpits?

HINSHAW: Well, the last plane I was on, the cockpit door is open a good bit of the time, in the days, a quarter of a century ago, when we were facing the hijackings, or people hijacking for money. They closed cockpit door. And usually there was an arm Scott Marshall (ph), behind there and nobody went in there not even flight attendants. So --

VAN SUSTEREN: But today, I mean, obviously four did get in. Did they get extortion that they threaten the pilots, they're going to slit someone's throat or do something like that to get the pilots to open the doors?

HINSHAW: I think they possibly could have because my understanding is that the assumptions have always been don't do anything to make the hijackers mad, let's get them on the ground. We'll negotiate with them, give them pizzas for passengers, and do something like that. These people obviously had an entirely different intent. And they didn't fit the profile and we paid for it.

VAN SUSTEREN: Ray, I've heard so often, I would say these are trained pilots, experienced pilots. And I do understand there's some reports saying that they had trained in Florida. But to fly a 757 or a 767, at least I would think takes a significant amount of training, does it not?

KELLY: Well, you know, this aircraft these days are fly by wire, they're computer controlled. You can get even simulator programs for computers. I think once it's up in the air, it's probably not that challenging, particularly if you've had some flight training. So, I think it's probably easier than you might suspect.

VAN SUSTEREN: What about aiming though. They still want to hit targets through the planes were headed for targets.

KELLY: Right. And I think obviously they had some training in in that regard. But I mean, you talk to pilots, they say that it isn't that complicated.

There is -- a lot of this, of course, is on automatic pilot. You get from one location to the other by going from point to point. You disengage that automatic pilot, then you do the aiming.

Yes, it takes some training, but I'm told it doesn't take that much to be able to steer the aircraft.

VAN SUSTEREN: All right, Bill Hinshaw, Ray Kelly, thank you very much for joining us this evening.

HINSHAW: Thank you.

KELLY: Thank you.

VAN SUSTEREN: The effort to identify the hijackers has led investigators to Florida where they are questioning people and executing search warrants. CNN Susan Candiotti is in Vero Beach, Florida with that part of the story.

Susan.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Greta.

Indeed the FBI here Florida had a very, very busy day, indeed. We'll try to give you the highlights of what happened here this day and in other locations as well.

[20:35:07]

First, we can report to you that the FBI indeed has leads on suspected hijackers that were involved in this terrorist attack. They are still hijackers who attended flight schools here in Florida. And at this hour, the FBI continues to look at other flight schools here in Florida.

Law enforcement sources say that two of the suspected hijackers, at least two of them, lived here in Vero Beach. Two of them are brothers that lived here. One of them lived on this very street. Both are described as Saudi citizens.

One of them is Adnan Bukhari. Adnan Bukhari, we have a photograph of him. He is said to be in his 40s. He is described as a commercial pilot for Saudi Arabian Airlines.

Also living in Vero Beach, Bukhari's brother Ameer, both lived here with their wives and children.

Now, this afternoon, we also had a chance to go inside one of their rented homes. This is the one rented by Adnan Bukhari, it was searched this day by the FBI.

And according to documents left behind by agents, they seized a number of items including a computer, computer software, U.S. immigration papers, bank receipts, phone cards, a flight safety bag. We also saw pilot's certificate as well as the certificate that they had received specialized instruction on multi engine planes.

These pilots we are told by law enforcement sources attended FlightSafety International, a flight school here in Vero Beach. Law enforcement sources also to tell CNN that the Bukhari brothers were believed to have been on one of the two flights out of Boston, one of those two flights that wound up slamming into the World Trade Center.

Also, we can report to you that a car impounded in Portland, Maine, according to law enforcement authorities, was rented at Boston Logan Airport and driven to Portland, Maine. Now the Maine state police confirmed that two of the suspected hijackers were on a U.S. air flight out of Logan Airport. Again, one of the two planes that crashed into the World Trade Center.

The FBI also looking at two more suspected hijackers who spent some time both in Venice, Florida as well as Coral Springs, Florida which is located in the south. The two are Mohamed Atta and Marwan Yousef al-Shehhi. Now, they stayed for a few days at the home of Charlie Voss in Venice, Florida, and they took courses at Huffman Aviation. These people -- both had passports from the United Arab Republic.

And finally, we can tell you that at this hour at FBI headquarters in Miami, the FBI is interviewing someone they described as a witness or friend or associate of the suspected hijackers.

Back to you Greta.

VAN SUSTEREN: Susan Candiotti, thank you very much.

Wolf, back to you.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Thank you very much, Greta.

And the investigation is also moving forward on the international front tonight. CNN's Mike Boettcher is tracking those developments. He joins us now from the CNN Center in Atlanta.

What kind of leads, Mike, are you hearing about that point to Osama bin Laden?

MIKE BOETTCHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, what they're doing is is going back two years in going over all of the analysis they've had in this transformation of Al-Qaeda, which is the network run by Osama bin Laden. There are intercepts, and that has been talked about by officials in the government SIGINT, as it's called, signals intelligence.

But they're also going back with clues, back to the last two years as Al-Qaeda has tried to transform itself, Wolf, trying to bring in various groups from other countries, especially from North Africa. They're taking a close look at Algerians, as well, because it was an Algerian terrorist group, GIA, which tried to also perform a similar terrorist incident, ramming a hijacked airliner into the Eiffel Tower. That was unsuccessful, of course. That happened back in the mid '90s. It was thwarted. So, they're casting their broad net, looking at what the information was over the past two years, Wolf, and they have gleaned a lot of evidence from that period.

BLITZER: And I know, Mike, you have a sort of a handbook that the Osama bin Laden organization, Al-Qaeda, circulated, which was intercepted. Tell us about some of the tips they have in there.

BOETTCHER: Well, this was introduced in the trial of the bombers of the African embassies in Tanzania. And yes, it is an Al-Qaeda operations manual, and it dissects precisely small things. For example, what Susan was talking about on the air just a few moments ago, how to rent an apartment.

[20:40:01]

Let me give you an example in one section called Security Precautions Related to Apartments. It reads, providing the necessary cover for people who frequent the apartment. Avoid seclusion and isolation from the population and refraining from going to the apartment at suspicious times. And it is preferable to rent these apartments using false names, appropriate cover, and non-Moslem appearance.

Now, if these suspected terrorists are part of Al-Qaeda, certainly this manual would have been part of the game plan, so to speak, Wolf, they would have followed.

BLITZER: Mike Boettcher, thank you very much.

And let's get some historic perspective now on this tumultuous day, day and a half the attack on America. How are we coping? What's likely ahead? Let's check in with CNN Senior Analyst, Jeff Greenfield. He's in New York.

Jeff, I was moved yesterday, Jeff, when you spoke about fear in America, and how all of us probably will change our definition of that word as a result of what has happened.

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: I think that's right, Wolf. We have been a country blessed by two oceans, blessed by -- except for the Civil War, never really having had violence on our soil with the rare exception of Oklahoma City.

I think if you were around New York today, it felt different than any other time I can remember. I took the subway down to work as I always do, people were not just quiet, they were numb.

I spoke to one of my old friends today, who's a frequent world traveler, not going to Europe on his next plan trip, really uneasy about getting on an airplane. And that I think is the most significant question we face. Whether this event really does for a long period of time, fundamentally shake the security that we as Americans have always felt in our own country.

BLITZER: And there's no doubt even much more mundane matters will be rethought, for example, going up in a high rise building. What were to happen if they rebuild the World Trade Center, a lot of people might be afraid to go up to the 90th floor.

GREENFIELD: Well, I think in fact that has already come up. There's this sense in New York that we must rebuild to show we will not be cowed by terrorists. That's a very noble sentiment. Who is going to want to work in that building?

I myself yesterday, Wolf, gazed a few blocks east of the Empire State Building. And for a couple of hours, I must say I had the -- I had the kind of uneasy feeling is, is that the next target?

And when you walk around like that, I mean, people who grew up in in Europe, lived in Europe during World War II, they know what this means. But we as Americans don't know what this means. You spend a lot of time in Israel, you know, they've come in some way to live with that.

And I do think that one of the real questions, I don't think it's -- we can possibly answer it for a long time to come is whether there will be a long term sense of uneasiness. As for people who move around big cities, who get on an airplane, something we take for granted, I mean, Wolf, you and I both know that the biggest complaint we've had about airplanes is they never take off. And the, you know, the trauma of airline travel, that seems like a relatively trivial matter right now. And I wonder whether that's going to affect, in some sense, our whole national sense that as Americans, we've been protected.

BLITZER: And from what I hear you saying, and I certainly agree with you, if I hear you right, this event will change all of our lives for perhaps forever.

GREENFIELD: I think, you know, we are so given the overstatement in the media that I almost hesitate to put it that way. But I think you are right, Wolf. I think this is -- I think September 11, 2001 is going to define an America before and after every bit as much as December 7, 1941 or November 22, 1963. I think it is not too much to say that we will not live anymore, the same way we have been used to living before this event. And that it's something that -- it's so unusual for this country to go to it that I think we haven't begun to get our minds about what -- around what that means.

BLITZER: I totally agree. Jeff Greenfield in New York, thank you very much.

Greta.

VAN SUSTEREN: A war hero himself, he says his country is now at war again. Saying this nation is in a state of controlled fury. He has a message for those behind the attacks.

Senator John McCain joins us now live from Capitol Hill.

Senator, thank you for joining us. You have said that we are at war as well as the President of the United States earlier today said they were acts of war. Are we really at war? There's been no former declaration. But are we at war? SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ): Well, I don't think there's any doubt, Greta. Acts of war have been perpetrated on the United States of America by these terrorists. And they have declared war on the United States of America. And so, I think it fits the criteria.

Now, as far as a formal declaration of war on the part of the United States is concerned, that may be somewhat difficult in respects that I'm not sure exactly how you do that. But I don't think there's any doubt that we are in a state of war.

VAN SUSTEREN: In the event that we can identify the parties who have done these horrible tragedy in American soil. Do you expect or would you want the United States to declare formal war against the perpetrators?

[20:45:09]

MCCAIN: Yes, I do. But I don't know exactly whether it fits the criteria for a declaration of war on the part of the Congress of United States, whether it is a statement that the President and the Congress make together about the nature of this conflict that we're in is, is something I think we have to worry about in more of a Talmudic fashion. But what we're really talking about is that the American people need to know this is a long, hard struggle. It wouldn't be over if we got rid of Mr. bin Laden tomorrow, there are other organizations that are bent on the destruction of the United States of America.

And in order for us to preserve America and our way of life, we're going to have to sacrifice American treasure and unfortunately, in some cases, perhaps some American blood.

VAN SUSTEREN: Senator, we had an opportunity to speak to the President about this?

MCCAIN: I haven't spoken directly to the President. I've spoken to all -- literally all the other administration officials.

BLITZER: Senator McCain, it's Wolf Blitzer. There's a new poll that just came out in ABC News-"Washington Post" poll that suggests that all Americans may have to sacrifice something else. Look at these numbers. Would you be willing to give up some of your liberties in this country in order for the government to crack down on terrorism?

Sixty-six percent said yes. Only 24 percent said no. Those numbers are obviously much higher than they were before this incident. How concerned should the American people be about having to give up some liberties to deal with terrorism?

MCCAIN: I think the very reason why we have to do whatever is necessary to eliminate these organizations and or -- and punish the countries that are involved as well. And that's why I think the President's statement was very important about countries that harbor these people as well as the organizations themselves.

But what we have to do is make sure that there's a steadfastness of purpose, and thereby we can preserve America's liberties. Yes, there will be lifestyle changes, we'll never be the same getting on an airliner again, and there will be other security measures that need to be taken.

But the best way to ensure maximum liberty for the United States of America is to remove the threat to it because this whole threat, obviously was about destroying our way of life.

BLITZER: And as you know, Senator McCain, some of your colleagues are proposing that Congress passed an act, a declaration of war, a formal declaration of war against whom I'm not exactly sure. But is that a good idea?

MCCAIN: I think in theory, it not a bad idea. Because I think the more steadfast and the strongest message we send is good. But as you just said, I'm not exactly sure who we declare war on.

I think we could achieve the goals of making sure that the world and the American people know of our steadfastness and our seriousness, perhaps by some other kind of declaration. I just don't know exactly how mechanically it would work to declare war, because as you said, who would it be on?

VAN SUSTEREN: Senator, what do you make of the fact that our NATO allies have unanimously started joined in in support of the United States? What does that mean, sort of the big picture that NATO has at least made the statement so quickly?

MCCAIN: I think it's great credit to the President and Secretary Powell and others that have made this happen so quickly. I think it's a significant step. I think now, we will recruit our Asian allies and other allies throughout the world to make basically the same pledge.

I think the President is doing what his father did in 1991, at the time of the Persian Gulf War. And I think they deserve credit for what's been done in a very short period of time.

VAN SUSTEREN: So as a practical matter, Senator, what do you expect in the next few days, with all this sort of world support for the United States, and at least a tremendous amount of, you know, of anger in this country?

MCCAIN: Well, I think we have to control the anger. For one thing, we don't want to retaliate against any American or anyone who is aware of American Arab descent. That's not what America is all about.

We have to focus on our anger on those that deserve it. And that is these organizations and these countries.

We have to continue to tell the American people that there's not going to be a quick fix. We have to continue to build alliances and partners and coalitions so that we can act in a concerted fashion.

Every nation in the world is in danger if the United States is in danger. And then, I think we formulate our plans to respond militarily not ruling out any option. And so far, I think we're proceeding well, but we've got a long way to go. And of course, all of our American hearts are heavy.

BLITZER: Senator McCain, when President Bush says he will make no distinction between those responsible, the terrorists responsible for these actions and those who harbor them or support them. Give them some sort of protection. What does that say to you?

[20:50:00]

MCCAIN: It says to me he's right on the mark, because these terrorist organizations would find it impossible to have -- to carry out the sophistication, the training, the operational capabilities that they have attained if they didn't have a country that would give them sanctuary and sometimes assistance. So, this is an integral part of this challenge that we face. And I was very pleased to hear the President make that statement, because I think it's very important.

VAN SUSTEREN: On a personal level, Senator, how difficult or hard is it on members in the United States Senate and the House of Representatives in a situation like this, when the American people at least feel so unprotected?

MCCAIN: I think it gives us a sense of responsibility to communicate with the people and our constituents and do what we can to assure them that it's the greatest nation in the world, will remain so and we'll do everything we can to protect them.

But I also think that as your conversation with Jeff Greenfield, we've been a very fortunate nation. We've been predicted by two oceans. And now we live in an era where all of those protections are not as valuable as they were in the past. And we still live in a very dangerous world, which is a reason why the United States of America must maintain its military preparedness.

VAN SUSTEREN: And of course, Senator, you know, we also value our freedoms, that's why so many people want to come to this country. How do we have that balance in the future, the fear versus the freedoms that we've enjoyed so much?

MCCAIN: First of all, we have to destroy the threat to those freedoms. And then second of all, we have to do everything in our power to protect those freedoms. Yes, there may be some changes. Maybe there's, as I said, the airline business or perhaps their borders have to be more carefully policed.

There may have to be some changes. But we must be dedicated to the proposition of preserving the freedom of the American people, otherwise, the terrorists have won. And we can't allow that.

BLITZER: Is there any way, though, to reconcile the changes that are obviously going to unfold in the day to day lives of Americans with the need to signal to the terrorists, that they're not going to win, that our lives are not going to change?

MCCAIN: Yes, because I think there's a real difference between perhaps waiting a half an hour an hour to get on an airplane instead of walking on board. And really the curtailment of the fundamental freedoms of democracy, freedom of movement, freedom of speech, freedoms -- all of those freedoms that are the vital parts of democracy. And yes, we may have to have changes in certain lifestyle, but I don't think -- in fact, it is our commitment, it's our solemn promise that we will preserve the liberties that made this nation so great and are exactly the reason why they want to attack us and destroy us.

BLITZER: Senator McCain, we only have a couple seconds left.

MCCAIN: Sure.

BLITZER: But can American stand down right now and assume that this terror operation is over with and we can go back to our day to day lives?

MCCAIN: I don't know. I assume so. But we have to be vigilant and we have to be prepared and the sooner we eradicate this threat to our nation, the more we can have a permanent sense of security, the more likely it is.

BLITZER: Senator John McCain --

MCCAIN: Thank you.

BLITZER: -- always good to speak with you. Thank you very much.

MCCAIN: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Thank you.

And let's recap once again, some of the latest information we have as of this minute, search and rescue crews have evacuated the World Trade Center site after the partial collapse of another nearby building. It's one Liberty Plaza, a 54-storey tower whose tenants include NASDAQ.

Investigators believe they've identified some of the hijackers. Part of the probe is focusing on Florida where several people are being questioned, several homes were searched.

New details of possible efforts to save the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania, at least two of the passengers were able to call relatives. One passenger told his wife that men on board had voted to try to overtake the hijackers. And members of Congress held a vigil tonight on Capitol Hill. Tomorrow, they're expected to approve $20 billion for the recovery and the investigation.

Greta, I know you've been covering a lot of these kinds of investigations, nothing obviously, as huge as this. They always say the first hours after an event like this are the most critical and collecting, so called, forensic evidence that could hold up in a court of law. Is it your sense that these hours are slipping away or are they doing the job they can do?

VAN SUSTEREN: I don't think so, Wolf. I mean, it's a very different investigation. I don't think right now the American people are presses necessarily looking to prosecute. I think that they have a different sort of agenda, especially when we hear words like war being thrown around in terms of -- I think the governors have very different approach. They're not seeking to bring them into the courtroom, but to do something very different.

Having said that, in this case, we know who was on the planes because they're the manifested passenger list. The more difficult problem is those who assisted or aided anybody, who sort of gave the nod, maybe a security person who might have looked the other way as they slid in with a knife. Those are the more difficult people to identify. And I don't think that it's necessary, you know, that we're going to get those people.

But those people who helped are just as involved in a conspiracy to kill all these people and are just responsible. They're the hard people to catch. And I think time makes a big difference.

[20:55:07]

BLITZER: Is it the your sense, Greta, that if the U.S. government holds up some very, very stringent legal requirement, legal condition for pursuing those who may be responsible, the U.S. may wind up doing nothing?

VAN SUSTEREN: I don't think the U.S. is going to do nothing. I mean, listening to Senator Shelby, Senator McCain, the President of United States, I think the American government is going to do something. I don't know what it is. But I also think if given the opportunity to bring people into court, I think they will do that.

And in 1996, a statute was passed, an antiterrorism statute in which if you are convicted under that statute, you are eligible for the death penalty, you'd be tried in federal court, and you will be -- and you will be eligible for the death penalty. And I suspect with the magnitude of the destruction and tragedy that you'll get the full force of the government against you.

BLITZER: And the reason that Ramzi Yousef, the mastermind of the first World Trade Center bombing is serving a life sentence plus 200 years didn't get the death penalty is what?

VAN SUSTEREN: You know, I don't know. It's because the jurors decided apparently not to give the death penalty. I don't jump into the minds of the jurors.

But the one thing is that, you know, as I looked around Washington tonight, wolf, I got to say that the city is very quiet tonight after the tragedy at the Pentagon here. But we are now facing the police presence in this city. And things may change a lot for us, at least in the short run, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Greta, that wraps up our coverage for this special hour. But stay tuned. "Larry King" Live is up next here on CNN.

VAN SUSTEREN: Larry, we'll be talking to witnesses, aviation safety experts, terrorism experts and lawmakers on this -- the day after the attack on America.

Good night, Wolf.

BLITZER: Good night, Greta.

Right after "Larry King," there will be a special one hour CNN report, "America Under Attack" hosted by CNN's, Aaron Brown and Paula Zahn. Good night.

LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Tonight, aftermath of the unthinkable, Americans struggle to count the terrible cost of what the President calls, acts of war and kind of light what comes next.

Good evening, I'm Larry King. And this is a special edition of Larry King Live. We'll be with you, of course, for the full hour and then more special reports throughout the 24 hour period that we cover it on CNN.

(INAUDIBLE) our guests, let's start with the newest member of the CNN family, Paula Zahn in New York. Paula, can you give us an update as to how things stand now and what's happening with that third building?

PAULA ZAHN, CNN HOST: Absolutely, Larry. There's a lot to talk about tonight on a lot of different fronts. For starters, I'm going to bring you up to date on what the administration is planning to do. They are certainly laying the groundwork for a strong military response, reaching to allies across the world in the aftermath of what you just said President Bush called an act of war.

Secretary of State Colin Powell told me earlier today, this will not be over in a week or two, it will be a full scale assault, not just by the United States by but what he called the whole civilized community.

Now, there's some interesting information that came out of the White House today, Press Secretary Ari Fleischer now confirming that the United States has real and credible evidence that that one plane that slammed into the Pentagon was actually intended to fly and to hit the White House. Also Mr. Fleischer says Air Force One was supposed to have been a target too. That is why the President who was in Florida at the time of these multiple attacks, was not immediately flown back to Washington, D.C.

On the congressional front, the House and Senate have each passed a resolution condemning Tuesday's attacks. The chairman of the House Appropriations Committee is confirming the Congress will move quickly to pass or appropriate some $20 billion earmarked for rescue efforts, repairs and counterterrorism efforts. The money will go obviously to federal, state and local agencies involved in the cleanup, Larry.

Meanwhile, the investigation is actually expanding in in a number of different ways tonight.

KING: Yes, we're going to be covering that through the hour.

I did want to ask you, Paula, about that building that was sort of coming down, coming down. What happened to it? ZAHN: Well, here in New York City, we're keeping an eye on three or four buildings that are seriously degraded. There is a 54-storey tower that now is partially collapse which sat across from what used to be the World Trade Center. There are two hotels in the area that have strong structural problems, they may go.

Now, this further complicates rescue efforts here. As you know, Larry, about the only good news to come out of the city today is that rescuers were able to successfully rescue 11 folks trapped in the rubble. That included six firefighters, three police officers.

And I think what the city is having the toughest time wrestling with right now is the tremendous scale of loss here. The mayor, Larry, telling us early today, the numbers are going to be horrific.

[21:00:09]

KING: Yes.

ZAHN: He expects it to be several 1000 in each towers. And as you know, having lived here before, I think the news that has left the New Yorkers the most numb is the New York City lost his fire chief, its deputy fire chief as well as 300 firefighters and well over 80 police officers.

KING: Unbelievable.

ZAHN: And time, as you know, Larry, isn't benefiting anyone. You know that within the first 24 hours of one of these catastrophes that that is your chance --

KING: Yes. Paula --

ZAHN: -- but there is still hope.

KING: -- we'll see you in an hour with Aaron Brown on a CNN special report. Thanks for joining us and welcome aboard.

ZAHN: Thank you. Glad to be a part of your team.

KING: Paula Zahn, she'll be back in an hour.

Now, let's stay in New York and meet Captain Kenneth Erb of the New York City Fire Department. He's captain of the firehouse at West 31st Street. His firehouse lost three firefighters yesterday and he also lost a longtime friend, Father Mychal Judge, the fire chaplain for the New York City Fire Department.

And with Captain Erb is Firefighter James Grillo of the New York City Fire Department. As you can see some injuries suffered. He was in the south tower when it went down and lost several of his firefighter friends.

Mr. Grillo, James, what was it like when you got there?

FIREFIGHTER JAMES GRILLO, N.Y. FIRE DEPARTMENT: It was terror, sheer terror. Bodies were falling out of the sky. They were jumping off the 105th floor and they were landing all over the street and the sidewalk. There was fear in everybody's eyes.

KING: You also saw people jumping out of buildings, right?

GRILLO: Yes, they were jumping out from everywhere from the 70th floor above. It was horrible.

KING: And what were you doing?

GRILLO: I was trying to avoid looking up and watching it, Mr. King. It was horrible. I saw dozens of people jumping.

KING: And how did you get hurt, James?

GRILLO: I was -- my assignment with latitude for the company I'm assigned to, we were supposed to go into building number two, the south tower, and make our way into tower number one, the north tower. And we were caught in the collapse in the lobby of tower number two, the south tower.

KING: Boy. Captain Erb, you didn't go to the scene, right? Captain, is that true?

CAPT. KENNETH ERB, N.Y. FIRE DEPARTMENT: No, I wasn't working that day. I came in on a recall.

KING: So you were off and they brought you in?

ERB: They had a recall for police officers and fire officers as soon as the news struck. The media gave that announcement and we all, one way or the other, got in through hitchhiking, get in your car, whatever.

KING: You lost, what, three firefighters from the station on West 31st Street?

ERB: We did. We lost a firefighter, a lieutenant, and a captain.

KING: And are you the one that has to inform the nearest relative?

ERB: I went out with another former captain last night. Normally in the circumstance of Father Mychal Judge would be helping us out with this, but of course, he passed away and he couldn't do it. So, it's so chaotic.

It was really -- had to make our own procedures. So, me and a chief keys, who used to be a member of Latitude 4 (ph), we went and got a former -- retired battalion chief, who was a deacon in the Catholic Church, and we informed the family of the lieutenant and the -- my fellow captain. We informed their families that they were gone.

KING: There's no training for that, is there, Captain?

ERB: No. Not to my knowledge.

KING: Did you lose any friends, Jimmy Grillo?

GRILLO: I lost very many friends. Quite a few friends, personal friends and the fire department is made up. Everybody's a friend in the fire department. Thousands of men were all friends. But personally, I've lost quite a few, maybe a dozen personal friends, and it breaks my heart. To the great men who are very great men.

KING: James --

GRILLO: I've met with families. Men that have babies on the way, men that have husbands, new homeowners, it's tragic.

KING: And after something like this, James, do you ever think of maybe not being a fireman anymore?

GRILLO: I'll be a fireman, at least for another 20 years.

KING: So no --

GRILLO: I will always be a fireman. No, Mr. King, I will always be a fireman here in New York City, protecting the people of New York and my friends.

KING: Captain, what can you tell us about the late Father Mychal Judge?

ERB: Oh, I can tell you a great many things. He was a great man. He was very close to the members of Engine 1 and Latitude 4. He's stationed at St. Francis across the street from our house. He kept his car and a house.

He stopped and talked to us every night. He was not only spiritual leader, but he was a very good friend to us and a father figure somewhat. I mean --

[21:05:07]

KING: Yes.

ERB: -- there are things that I would talk to him about that maybe I would only talk to my own father about.

KING: I think we can hear some words from the Father. Can we hear that, crew? Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR RUDOLPH GIULIANI (R), NEW YORK: Some of the people that we lost we saw, like Father Judge and Chief Gansey (ph), Bill Fehan (ph), we saw them by 10 minutes before we went over to 75 Barclay Street.

And as I talked to their families, and I explain, explain to them, that they were working very hard, and they were working at what they love to do. And I'm sure their efforts will end up having saved otherwise.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: And joining us, as well as Jesse Blumenthal of St. Vincent's Hospital in New York.

And Jesse, I understand you -- were you -- did you work on -- Doctor, did you work on the priest?

DR. JESSE BLUMENTHAL, ST. VINCENT'S HOSPITAL NEW YORK: Well, no, I had taken care of the priests that previously. He had been a patient of mine. I knew him and everything he said about him. He was really an outstanding gentleman.

KING: And what did he die from?

BLUMENTHAL: Well, no, I did not take care of him at this time. I said, I've taken care of him in the past.

KING: And what kind of person was he?

BLUMENTHAL: Oh, he was a very warm, outgoing man, live life (ph) for a man.

KING: What's the situation like at the hospital?

BLUMENTHAL: So right now, things have quieted down. And we're obviously, you know, quite dismayed at the lack of patients that we've had. There was an initial frenzy we've seen over 370 patients yesterday.

And unfortunately, after about 1:00 this morning, they just been unable to extricate anybody. And of course, the assumption is that they're very few survivors. We've taken a few people out, but certainly we know that they're -- the vast majority of people in the building have not survived.

KING: Thank you, Jesse. And thank you, Captain Erb and Firefighter Grillo. We salute you all.

Joining us now from Washington is Dr. Bernadine Healy. She is President and CEO of the American Red Cross, the 20th person to lead that nation's foremost -- this nation's foremost humanitarian organization. What's the latest information you have on the need for blood?

DR. BERNADINE HEALY, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN RED CROSS: Well, Americans have responded with great compassion, and with every bit that they can offer with regard to our need for blood, Larry.

We have had blood drives all over this country, they're expanded. Our entire Red Cross headquarters has been turned into one huge giant field hospital. People coming in and giving blood, waiting in some cases for five, six hours. Every time we say we're sorry, it's taking this long, and they say we want to be here.

It's almost become a chapel. People are coming there to give blood, to mourn, to hold hands and to do the one thing that they think they can do, that they know they can do, as a statement of their solidarity, of their devotion, of their defiance of this hideous terrorism and these -- the life that have been lost and the fear that has been instilled in every American because of --

KING: And, Doctor, do you have Red Cross volunteers at the scene now?

HEALY: Yes, we have. In New York, of course, we have over 400, 500 volunteers that have been working around the clock since yesterday. We also have volunteers out at the Pentagon site.

We provide their health and food relief carts to the rescue workers, those heroes that you've been talking about, Larry. We're also there to help with the families of the victims at all of the sites, Boston, Los Angeles, San Francisco, because of -- Pennsylvania, because whenever there's an air crash, the Red Cross is there.

You know, we deal one big air crash is a enormous proportion. Here, we're seeing four air crashes in one day.

KING: Yes. So, how could you help? You could certainly not a plan for this.

HEALY: We cannot plan for this. But for the past year, we've been working intensely with the federal government under the federal response plan for weapons of mass destruction. And what we have seen is a airliner, a commercial airliner filled with human beings turned into a weapon of mass destruction.

KING: What's the number one need now?

HEALY: The number one need now is to prop across the country is going to be grief counseling. It's going to be people reaching out to try and understand this.

This is, of course, about these victims who were hideously harmed and damage, but it's about every American who was mourning today. It is about every American who has been terrified by what they're seeing. It's the children across this country.

And the American Red Cross is working with the Department of Health and Human Services, Secretary Thomas Thompson, to see that in all of our chapters around the country, we will be providing grief counseling for people of all ages to help them through what will be a very difficult time ahead.

[21:10:00]

HEALY: You know, Larry, we know from our work and disasters that warning goes on. We know that people go into very susceptible to depression, susceptible to sadness of the highest kind. And people listening tonight are going to feel it too.

KING: Thank you, Dr. Healy. We'll be seeing you again soon.

Dr. Bernadine Healy. We go now to Fort Myers, Florida. Rudy Dekkers joins us. He's the owner of Huffman Aviation International. The FBI has talked to Rudy about a possible suspects reports that two of the bombing suspects may have attended his school.

Is that where they talked to you about Rudy?

RUDY DEKKERS, HUFFMAN AVIATION, OWNER: Yes, that's correct. They called us they came by at 2:40 -- 2:45 a.m. last night, and they get for my manager the several files about these students. And during the day, we found a lot more about these students. They've been with us from July till October, November last year and obtained the first licenses they need to fly.

KING: So this was their initial training as pilots, right?

DEKKERS: Yes, it's an additional training. They came walking into the door, checked our facility and choose to fly with us. And in November apparently, that's what we heard and learned today.

They went to other flight school to obtain jets training. We do not provide jet training. The training we provide as Huffman Aviation in Venice is solely for small planes.

KING: Where they of a nationality other than American?

DEKKERS: No, they were -- my people two copies of their passports when they came in, because they need to show an I.D. And apparently they were -- one of them was on Afghanistan. I don't know what the other one was.

I don't see the files myself, because I have my managers taken care of that. I have spoken with one of them in several occasions. And Mr. Atta I spoke to him one time, five minutes.

KING: That's Mohammed Atta, right?

DEKKERS: Mohammed Atta, that's correct.

KING: And he was one of the two.

Were they good pilots?

DEKKERS: I have to check today with the instructor and with the examiner who did the flight test. And they were average pilots.

KING: Average. They had to go on to -- now, with your training, they couldn't go on and fly a 757 or a 767 so they go on to jet school.

DEKKERS: Yes.

KING: We were shocked by all of this. Do they ever look suspect -- with -- did you ever have any inkling that these people might be involved? And again, this is all just conjecture. We don't know that they were the pilots on any of these planes.

DEKKERS: No, no.

KING: What do you make of it?

DEKKERS: Well, I was shocked yesterday when it happened in the United States with the tragedy. Today, it was at my doorstep, but not 2000 miles away. We were in shock. And we're still in shock.

We have no knowledge, of course. None of my people, I have 48 employees in Venice, and none of them had any idea of course. It's an unbelievable. The feeling we have is indescribable, it's terrible.

KING: Well, now, Rudy, if they were involved, they had been planning this for a long time.

DEKKERS: Well, yes. The first day when we saw what happened, we thought, you know, like every other American, would he -- would this be planned a long time ahead, et cetera, et cetera? We know now that they were flying with us from July to November. And after our flight school, they went to another flight school. So they've been planning this quite a while.

KING: In the questioning, did the FBI give you an indication that they were strong suspects?

DEKKERS: They did not spoke to me about the questioning because that happened at 2:30 -- 2:40 a.m. this morning, and they called me at 7:00 this morning. I briefly talked to the FBI when they're ready to leave the office. And they indicated to my employees that they thought that these were prime suspects, yes, sir.

KING: I guess in your life of training people to be pilots, you never thought that you would have people use you to go on to do terroristic acts?

DEKKERS: No, you don't think about that. We do all the necessary work to know who customers are. We have a lot of foreign students coming over.

These people were foreigners, but they came over directly in the front door. They said they're dev (ph) when flying without a flight schools in the United States. They were not happy. Choose our school to finalize their training.

KING: Rudy, thank you. I know how tough this must be for you. Rudy Dekkers is the owner of Huffman Aviation International.

DEKKERS: Thank you, Larry.

KING: We meet now -- thank you -- three experts on the subject of terrorism. Here now in Los Angeles is Brian Jenkins. He returns again. He's a consultant to governments and private sector.

Senior Adviser to the President of the RAND Corporation in Washington is Christopher Whitcomb, FBI Supervisory Special Agent, a former member of the elite FBI hostage rescue team, and author of a terrific book "Cold Zero Inside the FBI Hostage Rescue Team." Also in Washington is Peter Bergen, CNN's Terrorism analyst who was working on a book about Osama bin Laden, and interviewed bin Laden four years ago.

[21:15:09]

Brian, what do you make first of this Boston thing today?

BRIAN JENKINS, TERRORISM EXPERT: Well, I think we're going to --

KING: SWAT teams going in.

JENKINS: I think we're going to see a very, very quick action as I mentioned yesterday an operation of this size is going to leave a lot of footprints, a lot of fingerprints, a lot of clues. And the action in Boston we saw today, the revelations about the flight school that we just saw repeated now are the kind of information that we are going to see developing over the next several days. So I think the investigation will move very, very quickly, at least insofar as identifying the actual participants in the attack.

KING: Christopher, if it gets to the point as we have promised that we will take them out, we will read (ph) them from this planet, in a sense, we are at war with them. How do you do that, Christopher? How do you take out a bin Laden or someone like a bin Laden who's hidden, who moves around and who may be undercover of the country he lives in?

CHRISTOPHER WHITCOMB, FBI SUPERVISORY SPECIAL AGENT: Well, I don't know about taking him out, Larry. But I think we have a lot of options. One of them obviously, is military. The other because this is a law enforcement operation and because we have to go with the justice system and we want to bring ultimately these people to justice.

We've done in the past operations, which are referred to as renditions where we go into other countries with the cooperation of those countries, of course, and bring people back to the United States.

KING: Yes. The public, though, I think 94 percent of the public, Christopher, wants us to go in somewhere and do something. Do you understand that?

WHITCOMB: No, I understand it's a very reasonable thing to want to bring these people to justice. But I want to point out that we've done this in the past, going way back to the mid '80s with Fawaz Younis who was an aircraft hijacker and moving through the '90s with people like Neil Kanzi (ph), and Ramzi Yousef, people like that. We've reached out to these people in foreign countries and brought them back to the United States. We've done this in the past, and there's no doubt in my mind that we'll find these people and we'll bring them back one way or another.

KING: Peter, what can you tell us briefly about bin Laden? What does he like?

PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: When I met him in '97, he spoke -- he's a -- he spoke in a very mild mannered way. He was somewhat polite, he bears himself in a safe, haughty manner. But he delivered his words of rage against the United States. And the words were full of rage, but the manner was very mild.

Just going to your point about if bin Laden is in fact behind all these attacks, an operation as Mr. Whitcomb referred to go in and perhaps snatch him, as it was the case in with Ramzi Yousef in the World Trade Center bombing, this would be an order of magnitude, very different. Because unlike Ramzi Yousef, who is essentially operating by himself, and there was a $2 million reward on his head, Osama bin Laden is surrounded by dozens of battle hardened veterans who are intimately familiar with a rocky difficult terrain of Afghanistan. It would be a very, very messy operation to go in and either snatch him or even attempt to kill him.

I think the United States considered this in the past and dismissed it in '98.

KING: Brian, could you -- well, I guess the public would look at this simply. Could you bombed him out?

JENKINS: I don't know that you could bomb him out. I mean, I think that the magnitude of this operation is going to call for a qualitatively different response than we've seen in the past two acts of terrorism.

The shock that's turning to grief that will soon turn to anger on the part of the American people is going to demand something more than a salvo of cruise missiles. I think really what the administration is going to be building toward is a more of a sustained campaign, a sustained series of operations that will involve both diplomacy and military operations designed to create an environment that will ultimately allow us to go in. And if, indeed, it turns out to be Osama bin Laden, then to attempt to capture or to deal with him in another way.

KING: Now, what do you -- Christopher, in the last chapter of your book, you say crisis resolution as we're coming out in this country, and that's good, because terrorism is coming. You don't need an army to lay siege to a country anymore. Obviously, we saw that yesterday. What can you do about it, Christopher?

WHITCOMB: It's a complicated issue. I wrote that because we're talking about terrorism being spread by the media and I talk about all you needing is a pipe bomb, and some good air coverage. We've gone way beyond that in the past couple of days to an extraordinary attack on the country.

But I think what we have now is a unique opportunity to bring all the resources in United States together. We need the political will of the people and the elected officials obviously to do something here. But this is an aspects of the military, an aspect for the intelligence community and for law enforcement. And really need to bring all of those together to go after him.

[21:20:08]

I agree completely, that is going to be very difficult to go into Afghanistan. But there are some avenues we can pursue.

KING: Peter Bergen, what do you think about the information? We learned that one of these planes, the plane apparently that left Dulles was going to go to the White House or maybe Air Force 1?

BERGEN: Well, I mean, that is what's being reported. Clearly these -- the White House is the ultimate symbol, bin Laden's people are very interested in attacking symbols of the United States government, whether it's embassies or warships or symbol of America's economic matters in the World Trade Center, it appears. So clearly, it makes sense, these people operate on symbols.

They're very interested in anniversaries. The anniversary of the introduction of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia was the occasion eight years later for the bombing of the U.S. embassies in Africa. So, I think it makes sense that it might be related to bin Laden in that sense.

KING: Brian, finally, we're going to see more than less?

JENKINS: More. I think we have to. I think we have to assume that possibility, that's not a prediction. But certainly as we mount -- as we mobilize to respond --

KING: Assume the worst.

JENKINS: I beg your pardon?

KING: Assume the worst.

JENKINS: I think we have to assume that there will be more attacks that may not be on the scale, because this was months in the planning. But we cannot presume that we will be able to engage in a worldwide combat against a terrorist network, a series of terrorist networks and have immunity in this country. It was demonstrated, we don't have it yesterday, it can be demonstrated again.

KING: Yes. Thank you. Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you all.

Here's a brief note of what was said by President Bush earlier today, and then we'll meet our next guests. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The deliberate and deadly attacks, which are carried out yesterday against our country were more than acts of terror. They were acts of war. This require country to unite. In steadfast determination and resolve. Freedom and Democracy are under attack.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: We're back. We're joined now in Saratoga, California by Alice Hogland (ph), her son Mark Bingham, called her from the hijacked United Airlines Flight 93 that left Newark and crashed in Pennsylvania. And you see his picture. In New York is Lorie Van Auken. Her husband Kenneth is missing. He was working on the 100 and second floor of the World Trade Center North Tower.

In New York at St. Vincent's Hospital are Karen Wiley and Michael Rasweiler. They are searching for their missing father, Roger Mark Rasweiler.

And also in New York is Gil Baker, the New Yorker who helped out after the bombing and later managed to shoot home video of that rescue effort.

We'll start with Alice Hogland. Your son was on the plane, he called you and said what, Alice?

ALICE HOGLAND, SON CALLED FROM HIJACKED PLANE: He said, I just want to let you know that I love you all. There are three men on board who have taken over the aircraft and they say they have a bomb.

And at that point, we were cut off he wasn't able to say anything else. The conversation lasted about a minute. He was very intent on telling us that he loved us. Trying to impart other information but he was thwarted in that.

KING: I was you are a flight attendant for that airline?

HOGLAND: Yes, I am. I'm a flight attendant for United Airlines based in San Francisco.

KING: Oh my gosh.

HOGLAND: As is my sister, Candice (ph).

Mark was flying on Candice's companion pass, that's Candy (ph) on the right there, that's Mark in the middle of me on the left.

KING: Now later, we would learn from another passenger calling that the men on that plane apparently, apparently, from what we've learned, attack the hijackers and that would probably the cause of it going down in Pennsylvania and not in Washington somewhere. So, you and your son and the others were heroes. How did you feel upon learning that?

HOGLAND: Well, it's no surprise to us. We know that mark is a very take charge sort of guy. He doesn't back away from a fight. He is very hands on. He is wonderful in a clinch.

I know that he was seated in seat 4D which is up in first class. So he was very visible to these hijackers and he was also close to them. And is very likely that he participated if he was at all able in that attempted intervention in the last there.

And yes, indeed if that is the case, then they -- those brave people that did that were successful in saving lives of many hundreds of people on the ground. And we take a lot of comfort in that.

[21:25:04] KING: You should. Alice, thank you.

Lorie Van Auken is in New York. Her husband Kenneth is missing. He was working on the 102 floor. What does he do, Lorie?

LORIE VAN AUKEN, HUSBAND MISSING AT WTC: He works for Cantor Fitzgerald. And he's a bond broker. And he was on 102, and we just haven't heard anything at all.

KING: Did you talk to him at all? Did he call home?

VAN AUKEN: He called home he left a message. And that's the last I heard from him.

KING: We had -- that message was left on your answering machine?

VAN AUKEN: Yes, it was.

KING: Yes. Let's listen to the voice of Kenneth Van Auken calling home.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

KENNETH VAN AUKEN, MISSING (through telephone): I love you. I'm in the World Trade Center, the building was hit by something. I don't know if I'm going to get out, but I love you very much.

I hope I'll see you later. Bye.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

KING: Well, Lorie, what must it be like to hear that?

VAN AUKEN: It was just horrible. It was really just horrible. I could hear the terror in his voice. And he was trying to sound like he was calm for us. But you could hear the chaos in the background and the terror in his voice.

KING: You have children, Lorie?

VAN AUKEN: I do. I have two children. My son is 14, Matthew (ph) and my daughter is 12. Her name is Sarah.

KING: How are they handling this?

VAN AUKEN: Oh, Sarah is a mess. She's goes in waves with hysterical crying back and forth. And Matthew is in some denial, I think, but you know, he's obviously beginning to see that, you know, because dad has not contacted us yet. So, we'll wait.

KING: Did you -- Lorie, did you get the message before you had turned on the television to see what was happening or after?

VAN AUKEN: Before. I got the message before I turned on the television. And turn on the television right away and realize it was a plane that hit the building and, of course, thought it was just an accident at first and then saw the other plane hit the other building, realized that it was a terrorist attack.

KING: Lorie, our prayers and thoughts are with you.

VAN AUKEN: Thank you.

KING: Karen Wiley and Michael Rasweiler are at St. Vincent's Hospital searching for their missing father, Roger Mark Rasweiler.

Karen what was he do -- was he in -- which tower was he in?

KAREN WILEY, SEARCHING FOR MISSING DAD: He was in tower one. And he was on the 100th floor. And we know he was there because a coworker of his had received a voicemail from him at 8:40 asking him to go to lunch.

We haven't heard anything else, except we have gotten a fax. My mom and my sister at home got a fax saying that from somebody in the Coast Guard saying that an unidentified male, John Doe, was admitted to a burn unit matching his full description down to his back surgery. And we're not sure if it was a false lead or just trying to keep them open, just hoping that that was him or that he's somewhere we can find them. We've been passing out flyers all.

KING: I see that.

Michael, where was he -- where was this John Doe admitted to a burn center where?

MICHAEL RASWEILER, SEARCHING FOR MISSING DAD: We don't know. We heard the fax said that he was sent to Jefferson Hospital. And we talked to a bunch of people in street and nobody has heard from it or heard about the hospital. And then later on, we got some news that he was shipped to Canada. So, we're really -- we have no further information --

KING: Karen, do you know what hospital in Canada the John Doe was sent to?

WILEY: They didn't know. Our family was trying to call and they don't seem to be having any luck right now finding a John Doe anywhere. So --

KING: Well, maybe we can help. If someone watching in Canada or somewhere knows about a John Doe who had burns from that tragedy, there's a number you can call. It's 908-782-4986. That's 908-782-4986.

Karen and Michael, I sure hope you find Mark.

RASWEILER: Thank you.

WILEY: Thank you. Thank you very much.

KING: Thank you. Roger Mark Rasweiler, the number again 908-782-4986.

Let's check in with Gil Baker, the New Yorker who helped out after the bombing. Where were you Gil?

GIL BAKER, NEW YORKER WHO HELPED OUT AFTER THE BOMBING: Well, I began the day just north of Houston Street, which was some distance from the World Trade Center directing traffic at an intersection. The NYPD directed me to go to an intersection that needed some supervision and didn't have any officers.

So, I was at an intersection there for an hour or so. And then, they were calling for help at a triage setup center that they were putting together at North Moore and Greenwich. And so, I went over there and ended up ultimately directing traffic for seven hours.

[21:30:10]

KING: And this is a video you took, right? The video we're seeing now is video you took?

BAKER: Yes, it is.

KING: How did you think of doing that?

BAKER: Well, I worked 13 hours as a volunteer. And at the end of that period of time I was tired but still enervated and thought it would be a good idea to shoot -- capture the heroics, basically, of the fire department and the police in their efforts to find people.

KING: That helmet you're wearing signifies what?

BAKER: Signifies you don't want to get your head hit in by a piece of falling debris. This is -- these were given away, Larry. These helmets were given away.

KING: What are you do for a living, Gil?

BAKER: I'm a filmmaker. That's what I do, Larry.

KING: Aha. So you were appropriately armed in a sense.

BAKER: I came back armed. I worked 13 hours without a camera. Had no intention of shooting anything. When I finally made it to the epicenter, which was at night, I got down there at about 10 at night.

One of my first assignments was to move 11 surgeons to the new triage center, which was no longer at North Moore Street and Greenwich, but was down right across the street at one Liberty Plaza, a building which is going to be falling down if it hasn't already. So.

KING: Wow, what a thing to live through.

BAKER: Yes.

KING: Thank you, Gil. Gil Baker.

BAKER: You're welcome.

KING: Wow.

Joining us now in Washington, three distinguished members of the United States Senate, Senator Joseph Lieberman, Democrat of Connecticut, he was of course was his party.

That is Senator Biden that you're looking at.

There Senator Lieberman. He is the Democratic Connecticut, member of the Armed Services Committee and a gem of governmental affairs and the former vice presidential candidate of his party.

Senator Joe Biden now is the Democrat of Delaware, Chairman of Foreign Relations.

And Senator Jon Kyl, our friend from Arizona, a member of the Select Intelligence Committee, a Ranking Member of Judiciary Committees, Subcommittee on Technology, Terrorism and Government Information.

And let's go first to Jon Karl on Capitol Hill before we talk with our senators.

Jon.

JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Larry, I got some new information for you. What we have learned is that Republicans and Democrats on the leadership level are working with the White House right now on what some are calling a resolution authorizing the use of force to respond to these attacks.

J.C. Watts, one of the members of the Republican leadership in the House is calling it a resolution of resolve. We know this congressional leaders on both sides say this was request that came from the White House for such a resolution. Language is being worked out. There are some concerns that have already been raised by some Democratic members.

This could be something like a Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. They don't want to go that far. They don't want to allow a blank check for military action. But this is something that right now from the House side leadership, members on both sides trying to work out some kind of an agreement on language, because the White House wants something further, something more than what the Congress did today.

As you know, the Congress today debated a resolution, passed resolution to the Senate, 100 to nothing, basically condemning this act and calling for unity and calling for action. This would be something a little bit further, something like what we saw back in 1991 with the Gulf War resolution authorizing the use of force. But there's no agreement yet on exactly how far that would go. But this is something that's going on right now at this late hour in the Capitol.

KING: Thanks, Jon.

And Senator Lieberman, your comment on what Jon Karl just told us?

SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D-CT), ARMED SERVICES CMTE.: Larry, I haven't seen the words have heard about the discussions. There will not be a significant disagreement among members of the Senate and I would guess the house on party lines. We're all united. We support a response retaliation.

And I think even beyond that we support a genuine long term comprehensive, sustained war against terrorism until we beat it. And we don't have to face this kind of tragedy again.

KING: Senator Biden, you know, Jon Karl did say that some Democrats were a little wary. And Senator Lieberman says no. Do you join Senator Lieberman?

SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D-DE), FOREIGN RELATIONS CHMN.: Well, I'm part of that group that has staff, they're working out the language. And the answer is there's going to be no disagreement.

Originally, there was a discussion about a declaration of war. And as John McCain said earlier in the preceding program, the question was war against whom? And so, there's going to be no disagreement.

I predict that what we come out with will be 100 to nothing. And I think they'll be absolutely resolve. Part of the confusion related to how the request was communicated and so on, but it's -- I think it's a nonissue.

KING: Senator Kyl, you're a member of the Select Intelligence Committee. Did Intelligence fail us?

SEN. JON KYL (R-AZ), SELECT INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: In one sense, Larry, you'd have to say it failed us because we didn't predict what was going to happen. But there's a connotation to that that somebody was grossly negligent and to blame.

[21:35:08]

And we cannot conclude that yet until we do our complete analysis, we're really not going to know what we knew. I think the key thing is we've got to continue to remind ourselves that we don't know what we don't know. And we shouldn't assume that we can predict these kinds of things.

KING: What we do know, Senator Lieberman, is that men who shouldn't have got into airports, got into airplanes and commandeer them.

LIEBERMAN: Absolutely right, Larry, but by total coincidence. The committee I now chair today held a long planned hearing on the vulnerability of America's critical infrastructure to enemy attack. We happen to focus today on computers and the way in which our financial systems and energy systems are dependent on them, and they can be broken into. But the same is true of transportation and air transport.

And we just let our guard down. I mean, I think yesterday was a turning point in American history. And I think what it says to us is that we've got to begin to organize to defend our homeland in a way we never have before because we thought the oceans protected us. But now, we're subject to attack from terrorists, from cyber attackers, and indeed, from ballistic missiles. And we got to put our guard up.

KING: Senator Biden, do we follow rules of law, something that this country and all of us are raised with? Or do we, as 94 percent of Americans say, go in and take them out?

BIDEN: Oh, by the way, when you go in and take them out, you don't have to follow rules of law. The rules of law apply to American citizens and people on American soil. There's not a rule of law when there's a war. It's not a rule of law.

KING: Yes, but you can follow, or you could follow. You ignore (ph) the international courts you could follow them through the country --

BIDEN: Oh, that's ridiculous.

KING: -- asking --

BIDEN: I have to say (ph), wrong. Ridiculous. Not even in the game.

KING: Right.

BIDEN: A country yields its sovereignty, when in fact, it participates in an act that causes grave damage to another country. There is no question under any law, international or otherwise, that if we have the proof, to show that there is a complicit as country that they have committed an act of war against us. And retaliation is fully within every single solitary category of law, international and local. That's very different.

That's very different. What -- because I -- with all due respect, Larry, you guys keep confusing these terms, in my humble opinion. And that is you talk about the rule of law. And the rule of law is applies to the United States of America and American citizens.

We cannot, will not and must adhere to. We cannot yield on that. We can't yield on the Bill of Rights. We can't yield on any of those issues as it relates to American citizens and the application of our criminal laws here in this country. But that's very different than retaliating.

KING: Could not have been stated more forcefully.

Senator Kyl, do you expect this to be swift?

KYL: Well, we've made tremendous progress just in the day and a half that have passed since this tragedy in identifying people that we think had something to do with it and expanding the investigation to a larger network. I think what we're going to find is that we will make good progress quickly because of the skill of our people, but that we're going to find a very large network of people complicit in this operation.

And the difficulty is that we may find that they are people of different origins or nationalities, people who lived in different countries, who traveled to different countries, and we may find the different countries harbored some of them and perhaps those that still live are being harbored yet in other countries. So, it may be quite difficult for us to find targets here that we can retaliate against.

BIDEN: Larry --

KING: Thank you --

BIDEN: -- one great important thing.

KING: Quickly, yes,

BIDEN: Real quickly, NATO, for the first time in its history, passed what they call an Article 5 resolution saying that if this attack was organized from abroad, it is an attack against all of NATO, they will participate in any retaliation. This is the most significant thing that's happening.

Colin Powell has to be complimented in the way in which he's generating support --

KING: Yes.

BIDEN: -- including from Russia, China and moderate states in the Middle East. It's a big deal.

KING: We thank Senators Lieberman, Biden and Kyl. We'll be calling on them again.

Joining us now to discuss this from an standpoint of aviation and aviation safety. In Columbus, Ohio is Mary Schiavo, Aviation Safety Expert, former Inspector General Department of Transportation.

Here in Los Angeles, Michael Barr, Director of the Aviation Safety Program at the University of Southern California that program draw students from throughout the United States in the world. Twenty thousand aviation professionals have attended. Barr himself is a former Air Force fighter pilot.

And in Philadelphia, returned visit from Arthur Wolk, the aviation safety and law expert, a qualified pilot himself and a strong critic of what happened. He thinks there was a total breakdown of enforcement and that this never should have happened.

Mary, do you agree with that?

[21:40:01]

MARY SCHIAVO, AVIATION SAFETY EXPERT: Absolutely. Not only was there a total breakdown, this never should have happened. The government has known about these weaknesses, has discussed these weaknesses. I participated in some of these discussions within the government, literally in the early '90s, clear up through '96. This was a known weakness and an accepted risk. The only people kept in the dark were the American public.

KING: Michael Barr.

MICHAEL BARR, AVIATION SAFETY EXPERT: I agree. You know, the one mortal weakness and one mortal enemy of aviation safety and security is complacency. And that's exactly what we were guilty of is complacency.

KING: Who was in complacent? The security people? The -- who? All of us?

BARR: Security people, the government, the airlines, everyone.

After the Pan Am 103 accident, we had 60 recommendations on security. Then we had another accident, in which we said, all right, Americans are going to be victims of terrorist in America, American buildings, we must act now. That report was in 1996, after TWA 800 of the Gore commission, and not all those results have ever been implemented.

KING: And the obvious question, Arthur, is, why not?

ARTHUR WOLK, AVIATION SAFETY EXPERT: Well, because so we have a tombstone mentality within the agency responsible for aviation safety, and that's the Federal Aviation Administration.

You know, Larry, there was a knee jerk reaction today, the FAA implemented some rules at airports that are going to delay 10s of millions of passengers. You know, not a single one of the rules implemented today would have prevented this tragedy.

So the tragedy of the tragedy is that the government still doesn't get it, it still doesn't have the sense to understand what is necessary to protect our citizens. And that is sky marshals. If we have to arm the pilots, let's do it. If we have to train the flight attendants in martial arts, let's do it. If we have to scrutinize our passengers better, let's do it.

But to say that curbside checking of luggage is no longer acceptable when it wouldn't have prevented anything is in my opinion insane.

SCHIAVO: That's right.

KING: So, Mary, if you agree with that, are we reopening the airports too soon?

SCHIAVO: Absolutely. I mean, I agree with Art so much. I mean, we have talked about this before. And Larry, you have talked about this before.

We are doing a lot of things because the FAA wants to show that things are back to normal. That is the worst thing that the FAA could do. That is exactly what the terrorists want us to do. We should never even consider going back to normal.

And what did the FAA do today? They have made ridiculous pronouncements. At first, they said they were going to open it noon, then they left each airport to decide when they had done their sweeps. Then they made ridiculous pronouncements like no more steak knives on planes. And then they did things like curbside checking instead of what they should have been doing, which is formulating a national strategy to combat this. And I think they have positively shown today, they cannot do it. Airport and aviation security is a law enforcement function. It belongs with a law enforcement agency, not the FAA.

KING: Even if that means, Michael, just tying up airports and no traffic and people not able to fly, take a train, take a car, no business travel, I mean, the economy would stand still?

BARR: Right. I don't agree with draconian results. But what I do think is that whatever we do, can't be for a week, or a month, or a year, it has to be forever. So we have to think these things out.

A report this morning said the Seattle-Tacoma Airport is going to have no carryon baggage including purses. Now, what's going to happen to my blood pressure medicine? Am I got to put that in a suitcase? And then, lose the suitcase and then try to get my medicine wherever I'm going. So, they got to think about this for a while.

KING: You agree with marshals on every plane?

BARR: If we -- yes. And I think we need to. In the report of the Gore commission, they wanted marshals, they wanted $160 million worth of new equipment, and $5 million to train new personnel. They ran out of money for marshals.

The people who check you through security are nearly minimum wage, lowly trained, and they're the ones responsible for our safety.

KING: Arthur, was the argument against it cost?

WOLK: Yes, of course. I mean, that's always the argument. That's why these things don't get accomplished.

We had marshals on aircraft for many years. And they flown randomly on flight. Well, obviously, because the threat is so much increased, we can't do it randomly. We have to have them on every flight.

You know, one of the things that struck me about the program tonight, Larry, was -- were the people in Washington saying that they have oversight responsibility. Well, let me say this to them. That oversight responsibility does not mean overlook. It means look over.

SCHIAVO: That's right.

WOLK: And that's the problem that we have in Washington. Oversight to them means overlook.

KING: And is that because, Mary, basically where a society that's just not used to this and we -- it's easy to get complacent. Things go along pretty well, we stopped doing the checks. We play that people -- how much do these people get at the check in gates?

SCHIAVO: Well, it is because in some ways we are complacent. But it's also told that -- we were told to be complacent. The federal government -- I have been in meetings in the Department of Transportation where literally officials with the FAA said, look, we need to give the impression of security, but we can't possibly make airports and aircraft safe. If we did, it would cost $10 billion.

And the reason they said that was it was actually trifold. One, they said, because domestic aviation was not targeted. They rated the threat is very low, instead of realizing that because we're not doing anything about it is actually very high. Simply because it hasn't been carried out in the past does not mean it doesn't exist.

Two, they said the airlines don't want to pay for the security measures, and passengers would not want raised fares.

And three, there were actually objections from certain labor unions and workforce groups about having additional security. They didn't want not want full background checks. They complained about having convictions knock you out of employment. And they didn't want that.

And in the end, they blamed it on the passengers. They said the passengers will put up with delays.

KING: Let's take a call for Dodge Iowa (ph) for our panel. Hello.

DODGE IOWA: Yes, why don't you just seal the bulkhead between the passenger and pilot compartment with no possible entry through in either direction once the planes in flight and have no communication between the two except through the ground?

KING: Michael?

BARR: Well, I don't think you need to seal up permanently. But what you need to do is get the door in there that is a strong security door.

Right now we have a door that stops somebody from going in the cockpit if they want to go to the bathroom.

KING: But what if then, Michael, if a hostage taker just said, open the door, I'm going to start killing people.

BARR: Then you have to have trained for that and made the decision on whether or not that is going to be followed. Are the risk of another World Trade Center is greater than the loss of some members of the crew or passengers? It's hard choice. It's the same hard choice you would give a fighter pilot to shoot down an airliner if it's heading for Washington Central.

KING: And that's what you would do, right?

BARR: If they told me to, yes, I would.

KING: You would shoot down an airliner with people on it?

BARR: Yes, I would if they were if they were heading for a, you know, building that 10,000 people in it, then, yes.

KING: Arthur Wolk, would your marshals be armed?

WOLK: Of course. They were armed before, they had guns that were designed so that they wouldn't penetrate the airplane structure.

KING: Yes.

WOLK: And that's what they need to have.

But you have to remember, Larry, that one of the thing that strikes me is that if you stop terrorism where you're supposed to, which is before it gets to the airport, you don't have to worry about the sky marshals having to exercise their authority. But the bottom line is, now we know as we have for the last 20 years or so, that we need sky marshals, and now we need to come up with the money for it. And I'll be the first one to send my $300 tax refund back so they can apply it to that purpose.

KING: So just so we get the record straight, Arthur, you would favor until major steps are taken, keeping these airports closed.

WOLK: No. I believe that we have to implement sky marshals immediately. And if that requires marshals that come from the United States Marshal Service immediately --

KING: I mean -- if they don't do it immediately, you wouldn't open them until they do it?

WOLK: I think that we have to be very, very careful. We certainly have to put sky marshals on randomly at the beginning, and then gradually increase it so they're on every flight.

KING: Yes.

I thank you all very much. We expect to hear a lot more from you, Michael, and Arthur, and Mary Schiavo.

We'll conclude our program with a visit with Dr. James Dobson with Rabbi Harold Kushner and Father Michael Manning and get their perspective tonight at the Capitol of prayer vigil. Listen and watch.

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KING: Joining us now from Colorado Springs is Dr. James Dobson, President of Focus of the Family and author of a new book, "When God Doesn't Make Sense." A title would well apply to events yesterday.

In Boston is Rabbi Harold Kushner. He's written many books. His most famous one of course, "Why Bad Things Happen to Good People?" And also the new one, "Living a Life that Matters."

And here in Los Angeles, Father Michael Manning, Roman Catholic Priest and Host of his own television show, "The Word in the World."

[21:45:04]

Dr. Dobson, we could well ask, did God make any sense yesterday?

JAMES DOBSON, PRES., FOCUS ON THE FAMILY: Well, Larry, it's certain that this situation is very difficult to understand. And there are no easy answers for it. And people who think they have it figured out just having lived long enough, I think. There are circumstances in our lives and I tried to write about that, when the pieces just don't fit.

And we believe that our obligation in moments like that is to go on trusting and depending on the Lord, and looking to him for solace. And millions have done that.

KING: Rabbi Kushner, why did bad things happen to so many good people yesterday?

RABBI HAROLD KUSHNER, AUTHOR: Because human beings are free to decide if they want to do good things or bad things. And some of those human beings are so filled with rage that they go crazy and hurt other people in the process. I don't think it was God pulling the strings.

You know, where I found God yesterday, Larry, in those firemen and policemen who were willing to risk their lives to try and save other lives and the people who lined up for hours to give blood. That's what God was doing. God wasn't making planes crash.

KING: An all-powerful God, though, Father, could have prevented it, didn't he?

FATHER MICHAEL MANNING, HOST, "THE WORD IN THE WORLD": Well, he could have prevented it. But the reality is, He loves us too much to allow us to take away our freedom. He believes in us and he believes --

KING: He loved all those people who went smashing into that building?

MANNING: Oh, yes. But he believes that there's a battle for evil. I see this as a battle. I see it as a big battle. And as a Christian --

KING: Evil won yesterday?

MANNING: They gave a good blow. But I certainly don't think that we're down. I think that we're in a battle with evil, and we got to fight. And that's the Our Father, deliverance from evil and we've got to fight continually for that.

KING: Dr. Dobson, and how do we deal with the anger we have?

DOBSON: Well, Larry, let me first say that I agree with what the other two gentlemen just said. We can't blame this on God. I don't believe that he did it. And he has given us a freewill.

And if he had not given us that, we would be nothing but puppets on a string. And so, people do evil things, and evil people do terrible things like we've seen here.

As far as grief is concerned, this is a horrible experience for the nation, and we're not going to get over it easily. It's going to take time. And we are going to have to have an opportunity to think through what's happened to us and let our emotions heal.

But ultimately, I believe that we turn for solace to God, who has been there with us through our crises in the past. Americans are very resilient. They have many resources, and two of the greatest star, their families and their faith. And I believe that's where we'll turn this time.

KING: Rabbi Kushner, what is your thoughts on the obvious anger people have today toward people whose nationality is different from theirs, or people from a certain region or the desire to just strike back tomorrow?

KUSHNER: Larry, I would hope that we'd be able to do something better with our anger, than do what those crazed hijackers did yesterday and try and hurt people because they don't like them, disagree with their politics, or find themselves members of a different faith. If we do anything like that we lower ourselves to their level. And I would hope that there's a more honorable way of paying tribute to the people whose lives were taken yesterday.

Larry, you realize all over this country, rabbis are throwing out their high holiday sermons and writing new ones because of what happened yesterday.

I spoke to a colleague yesterday about what there is to say about this. And I was impressed by what he said. He said, now we are all Israelis. That is we have learned what the Israelis have had to live with for 53 years, the sense of vulnerability and the determination to go on living your normal lives and not let the bad guys take over the field.

KING: What do you say to children, Father Manning, who point to the screen and say, why did they do that?

MANNING: Why did they do that? Because I believe that the battle was not fought in the right way. It's a battle of continually trying to find out where there's injustice and working as hard as we can to overcome that.

But at the same time, we have to face the fact that there is evil in the world and we talk about grief, we talk about the real necessity of talking to those kids and letting them -- making sure that we listen to them, and we hear them but we give them a deep reflection of faith and understanding that there's something more powerful in good than all the evil that comes. We got to fight.

KING: It's good. That's tough, convincing, isn't Dr. Dobson?

DOBSON: It certainly is. But I think it's very important for parents to know that the security and sense of wellbeing of their children is rooted in their relationship with their parents. And if they see their parents in anguish, if they see them expressing too much grief, if they allow them to see videos of this horrible experience and they perceive it as an ongoing crisis, then the children are going to suffer. And I think it's very important for to keep them talking, and to let them know that we're not frightened. And at that point again, I point us back to prayer. And you can teach children to pray and ask them to or teach them to pray for the people who are hurting, and those who are in the hospital, for the firemen and the others, and certainly for the president. And I think you can help them gradually learn to deal with this.

[21:50:25]

KING: Rabbi, with something like this, are there moments where you doubt your faith?

KUSHNER: No, it's moments when I call on my faith, because where else do I get the courage to get on an airplane next week, to go shopping next week, to invite my family to come up for the high -- holy days with us if I didn't have that faith, that ultimately the world rewards goodness. I don't think I could go on in the face of cruelty, like what we experienced yesterday.

KING: And one of the weird things in dealing with the faith, Father, is that these people were probably religious fanatics, right?

MANNING: They were thinking that God was calling --

KING: Do they had a faith?

MANNING: They had a faith in God. And this is, as a Catholic, I know that we can have an experience of looking back to the Inquisition and looking at things like the Crusades and saying, we missed the boat.

But I think we've got to see let's learn. Let's make sure that as followers of God, we're not allowing a God of over judgment to lose the God of patience and kindness and love for us.

KING: We thank all of our guests for being with us tonight. It's a very, very, very difficult times and it's --

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