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Bush Meets With Pakistani President; No Troop Reductions Expected Overseas; Armed Services Chairman Approves Deal on Detainee Bill; Hezbollah Leader Claims Victory; Dru Sjodin's Killer Gets Death Penalty

Aired September 22, 2006 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CAROL LIN, HOST: Hello. I'm Carol Lin at the CNN world headquarters in Atlanta. Kyra Phillips is on assignment.
Side by side, do they see eye to eye? The presidents of the United States and Pakistan. New questions about their alliance in the war on terror.

And protesting the pope. New threats, new demonstrations. Can Pope Benedict repair relations with Muslims around world?

And severe weather threats. Possible tornadoes damaging winds. Major cities on alert. Live coverage, all this and more from the CNN NEWSROOM.

Up first this hour, if the United States and Pakistan and the war on terror. President Bush and Pakistani President Musharraf say they are in this war together, amid growing signs of stress and in an often conflicted relationship.

We're going to start at the White House with CNN's Elaine Quijano.

ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon to you, Carol.

That's right. President Bush and President Musharraf really wanted to present a united front, showing that they are working together in the war on terrorism.

But of course, five years after the September 11 attacks, after that U.S.-Pakistan alliance was forged, Osama bin Laden remains on the loose. Well, today President Bush expressed confidence in Pakistan's commitment to tracking down bin Laden.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're on a hunt together. It's in the president's interests that al Qaeda be brought to justice, and it's in our interests. And we collaborate and we strategize, and we talk a lot about how best to do this. All I can tell you is that when Osama bin Laden is found he will be brought to justice.

(END VIDEO CLIP) QUIJANO: And President Bush was also asked today about a report, purported U.S. threat that the United States, allegedly, in those days after September 11, threatened to bomb Pakistan if it did not cooperate in the war on terrorism.

The president said today that he read about it in the newspaper, that he was taken aback by it, and in essence, he didn't know of any such conversations.

Now, also we should mention this meeting today was really also to lay the groundwork for an important meeting that's set to take place next week. President Bush will be sitting down, not only with President Musharraf but also the leader of Pakistan, President Hamid Karzai, another important U.S. -- of -- president of Afghanistan, pardon me. Another important U.S. ally in the war on terrorism.

The two leaders will sit down in the Oval Office with President Bush. There, of course, have been tensions between Afghanistan and Pakistan over the issue of the resurgence of Taliban activity, both sides essentially pointing the finger of blame at each other.

President Bush will try to convince the two sides that it is in their mutual interest to tackle the problem of extremism together -- Carol.

LIN: But Elaine, there's clearly a difference of position. If Osama bin Laden is in the troubled territories in Pakistan, the president of the United States says that the United States could unilaterally just go after him. So were there specific discussions between these two presidents about rules of engagement if there is actionable intelligence?

QUIJANO: Well, what we heard from the two leaders today, Carol, is that, essentially, they are cooperating, that on many, many levels, on the intelligence levels, on the operational levels, they are, in fact, working together.

What's interesting is that there was also a discussion about this peace treaty made by Pakistan's president along with some tribal leaders in that area where perhaps Osama bin Laden is believed to be hiding. And President Musharraf wanted to make it clear, and he did try to make clear that, in fact, that is an agreement, he said, that is going to help might the Taliban, that it is not an agreement made with the Taliban.

President Bush said he was satisfied with that. He believes, after hearing from the Pakistani president today that, in fact, that is the case so that they can move forward in a war on terrorism together -- Carol.

LIN: Thanks very much, Elaine.

In fact, later on I'm going to be talking with the man who wrote a book about the hunt for Osama bin Laden. We'll see what he has to say about these discussions at the White House. In the meantime, let's hear more about that alleged threat against Pakistan. The man accused of threatening to bomb Pakistan back to the Stone Age denies he said it.

CNN caught up with former deputy secretary of state, Richard Armitage, outside his home in suburban Washington this morning. Here's a bit of that exclusive interview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD ARMITAGE, FORMER DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, I did have a long and interesting conversation with Lieutenant General Mahmoud (ph), the head of Pakistani intelligence. And it was quite strong. And I wanted to make sure he understood the depth of our feeling about what had happened.

I also saw this as an opportunity to move forward with Pakistan in a new direction. So we had a very straightforward conversation.

I told him that -- that this -- for Americans this was black or white, that Pakistan was either with us fully or not. It wasn't a matter of being able to negotiate it. He started to tell me about the history of Pakistan-Afghan relations. And I must say I'm a little embarrassed, I cut him off and said, "History starts today, General."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: All right. Maybe something got lost in the translation.

Now it wasn't long ago that commanders were talking about cutting troops in Iraq. But not anymore, not with the ever-surging violence. So the question today is, can the U.S. military keep this up, especially with us straying from Afghanistan?

Joining us live from the Pentagon, CNN's Barbara Starr.

Barbara, Afghanistan is now -- is looking like there's going to be a need for more U.S. troops on the ground there.

BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, at least, Carol, no withdrawal. And on this Friday in Washington, perhaps the two most important pieces of information for the U.S. military overseas this week, commanders in Iraq, commanders in Afghanistan, both saying no quick withdrawal of U.S. troops. And the question is, what happens now?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STARR: New fears that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan may stretch the force more than anybody expected. In Iraq, the military now plans to keep about 145,000 U.S. troops in place until spring at least.

GEN. PETER PACE, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: We're not comfortable right now with the reduction in the size of our force.

STARR: In Afghanistan, there are now no plans to bring home any of the 20,000 U.S. troops in the foreseeable future.

With simultaneous wars and no immediate prospect of cutting force levels, how long can the military keep it up?

THOMAS DONNELLY, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC AND INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: These guys are running as hard as they can on the conveyer belt simply to keep up the pace of operations.

STARR: the Pentagon had hoped to bring 30,000 troops home from Iraq by the end of the year. On Capitol Hill, concern about the new reality.

REP. DIANE WATSON (D), CALIFORNIA: We need to be sure that we have a game plan for Afghanistan, as we need an end game plan for Iraq. Our military needs further support.

STARR: The key problem: Army active duty and National Guard forces already are being sent back to the combat zone, sometimes within months of coming home.

The solution: either increase the size of the Army or call up the National Guard more often, or send troops back to the front line with even less time at home to rest and train for the next round of combat.

But even if more troops are sent, usable equipment is in short supply; thousands of vehicles and weapons are worn out. The Army and National Guard say they urgently need $38 billion to fix or replace vehicles, weapons and gear. The Marine Corps says it needs $12 billion.

GEN. PETER SCHOOMAKER, U.S. ARMY CHIEF OF STAFF: A lot -- a lot of pressure they are placing on both the equipment and units and on the force.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

STARR: Carol, Pentagon sources tell CNN that everyone should expect to see another troop rotation announcement, another significant announcement of forces going to Iraq and Afghanistan on rotation, but that announcement probably won't come until after the November election -- Carol.

LIN: All right, thanks very much. Barbara Starr, live at the Pentagon.

Late yesterday we were talking about a compromise on the interrogation and treatment of terror suspects, a compromise reached between the Bush administration and the White House.

Here is the House Armed Services Committee chairman, Duncan Hunter, talking about perhaps even more ideas when it comes to treating detainees.

REP. DUNCAN HUNTER (R), CALIFORNIA: ... and American agents and American troops that those provisions are excellent; I like them. And we think that we can get this bill, get the rest of the bill worked with the Senate.

We've been working with their respective staffs, with Senator McCain's and Senator Graham's and Senator Warner's staffs this last night. We're going to continue to work over the weekend. We think we can put together a good package, and hopefully, the leaders of the respective bodies can -- can set up the necessary parliamentary system to get this important structure for the prosecution of terrorists up on the floors of both the Senate and the House before we break and to the president's desk very soon.

So the important part that we looked at first, which is classified -- the use of classified evidence and the protection of American agents and American military personnel, the new provisions are excellent. The head of the CIA, Mike Hayden, feels that they're very protective of his people. We've looked them over. And I can tell you frankly, I like them. And in some respects, they actually have more protections than what the -- than what came out of the House -- House Armed Services Committee, our own provisions.

And as you know we were -- we were criticized for being too forward-leaning in terms of protecting agents and not enough defendants' rights. And yet, the new provisions are very, very protective, very, very good.

So having said that, we're going to continue to work. And we'll try to wrap this -- wrap up a bill as soon as possible.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

HUNTER: Well, if you have an American agent who is -- who has the key testimony to the conviction of a terrorist, what I had in my bill to keep him from being identified -- and as you may know, and we've had two cases now, in court case where's information did go ultimately to Osama bin Laden, that went through the lawyers. So the idea of protecting our agents and our classified information is very important.

If you have an American agent who has -- who has key testimony what we -- we do not want to have, in the armed services committee bill, we did not want to have a lawyer, no matter how high the stack of Bibles that he swore on that he wouldn't let the information out, we did not want to have a lawyer having access to that information.

We think some of the information went to Osama bin Laden earlier, went through counsel. We did not want to give him that information, that identity of that American agent.

What we provided for in my bill was the -- was the appointment of an American JAG officer, uniformed officer with a high security clearance, for the purpose of cross-examine that American agent so that there would be a cross-examination.

In the language that is the new language, that was inserted by the White House, the judge -- and, of course, the judge would be part of that proceeding. The judge will be able to make that examination to -- to make a decision as to whether the basic information that is going to be transmitted to the court is reliable.

And so he will be the one who will know the identity of the American agent, who will be able to talk about the background, the circumstances by which he may have come -- come up with the information, that could be used to convict a terrorist.

LIN: All right, we're listening in to U.S. Representative Duncan Hunter, who is chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, talking about legislation that would define the evidence rules in court when a terror suspect is on trial.

Andrea Koppel, she's our congressional correspondent. She is standing by with more on this.

So Andrea, for people who have been trying to follow the negotiations on the war tribunals and the treatment of terror suspects, what actually has been accomplished? And what is Duncan Hunter adding to that dialogue?

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Carol, I think the headline out of this press conference is the fact that now that Duncan Hunter has given the thumbs up to this deal that was worked out yesterday between those three renegade Senate Republicans in the White House, the path is now clear to expect its passage, both in the Senate and the House next week.

And then President Bush will get a bill. I think there's very little doubt that he will get a bill for new detainee legislation on his desk such that now six, seven weeks out from the November midterms, the Republican Party will be able to say with no doubt that they are united on this issue, that the divide that existed for the last number of months between those three top Republicans and the White House has been resolved, and that the Republican Party is tough on fighting terror.

If they had not resolved this dispute between John McCain, John Warner and Lindsey Graham and the White House, there really was a question mark, and this was becoming a political liability for the Republican Party, Carol.

LIN: Thanks for getting straight to the headline, Andrea. Because it's been a long road over the last week, talking about so many different issues about terror suspects and tribunals that you pretty much summed it up. Appreciate it. Andrea Koppel on Capitol Hill.

In the meantime, we were waiting to see if we would see Hezbollah -- Hezbollah's leader make any kind of an appearance at a big rally today in Beirut.

You might call it divine, historically, even strategic. Certainly no mistaking how the leader of Hezbollah feels about his group's short war with Israel or who he thinks actually won. He got rock star treatment today in Beirut.

CNN's Beirut bureau chief, Brent Sadler, was there, and he joins me on the telephone.

So Brent, this morning you were talking about on "AMERICAN MORNING", you know, whether he would even make a public appearance, given that, you know, he is considered a terror suspect in Israel. So there he was.

BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Carol. No doubt here that Hassan Nasrallah, Hezbollah's leader, is, indeed, on a list of possible Israeli target assassinations.

And, in fact, Nasrallah told a crowd that even up to 30 minutes before he arrived, he was still arguing with his security advisers about whether or not he should appear.

The fact that he showed up and spoke for almost an hour surprised many, although the fact that he did attend the gathering in the southern suburbs of Beirut was, in the end, expected because of the moment, the moment that Hezbollah claimed that his fighters had delivered a divine victory over Israel in the July/August war.

Hezbollah claims, in fact, that it's now stronger than ever. Nasrallah says that his group has recovered all of its organizational and ability capabilities, Nasrallah declaring that the group has some 20,000 rockets still in its possession. And that's some five times the number of missiles Hezbollah fired into Israel during the 34 days of combat.

Also, Nasrallah said that there was no army in the world that could force Hezbollah to drop its weapons -- Carol.

LIN: Brent, what happened to the Israeli soldiers who were kidnapped? Did Nasrallah say anything about that? I mean, that was part of the peace deal, that Hezbollah would -- would give them back to Israel. What happened?

SADLER: Well, that simply slid off the agenda. As things stand now, Hezbollah has made it clear that those two Israeli troops who were captured July 12 would not be going back home unless there was a prisoner swap, an exchange of the two Israelis for Lebanese prisoners who had been held for many, many years in Israeli jails. That has been put on the side.

In effect, so, too, has Hezbollah's weapons. And Nasrallah said in an interview before appearing today that fighters were still close to the border with Israel, although their -- although their weapons have been hidden. They are virtually now invisible.

This even as international forces continue to deploy, backing up the Lebanese army in South Lebanon.

But this really was Nasrallah seizing what many in the crowds saw as an historic occasion for the militant extremist group to claim a victory of sorts over Israel by the very fact that Hezbollah is still armed with Katyushas and that those two Israeli soldiers are still in Hezbollah's hands -- Carol.

LIN: Brent, you've got to wonder what that war was all about, really. What was accomplished? Not much.

Brent Sadler on the telephone from Beirut.

Well, an international who's who of terror.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Behind the barbed wire at Guantanamo Bay, in isolation, sit 14 men the U.S. government considers the most notorious terrorists ever captured.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: That's CNN's Kelli Arena. She's investigating. Just ahead in the NEWSROOM.

Plus, it's a new day but not a new story in Baghdad. The Iraqi capital still brims with bloodshed. So how do ordinary people cope? A live report straight ahead in the NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Straight to the NEWSROOM now. Fredricka Whitfield working on details of a developing story -- Fred.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Well, Carol, remember the name Alfonso Rodriguez? He was the man who was convicted of kidnapping, raping and killing a University of North Dakota College student, Dru Sjodin. That was a month ago.

Well, today a federal jury met for an hour and a half and decided to impose the death penalty against Alfonso Rodriguez.

He looked straight ahead, showing no emotion, as the sentence was announced. His mother and sister cried, as did a number of the jurors.

As for Dru Sjodin's family, her father, Allan Sjodin, spoke.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALLAN SJODIN, FATHER OF DRU SJODIN: Justice is served. It doesn't fill all of the voids, hardly fills any of them. But one thing is suspect (sic) right now, and that is justice has been served. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: The killing of Dru Sjodin happened in 2003. North Dakota does not have the death penalty, but because this was a federal case, the death penalty was an option for these federal jurors.

This is the first time in about 100 years, Carol, that the death penalty has been imposed in North Dakota.

LIN: Look at that bright young face and all that was lost for that family, Fred. Hardly -- well, some kind of justice for them, but you could see that the father is still grieving.

WHITFIELD: Yes, it was very sad. And you recall that it was quite some time before they ever found the body of Dru Sjodin. So the family was tormented for a long time as people conducted searches for her, both in North Dakota, as well as Minnesota. Her body was eventually found in Minnesota.

So all of this transpiring just within the past three years. Difficult for the family, but as you heard from the father, some justice, they believe, was served.

LIN: All right. Thanks very much, Fred.

Call it a civil war if you want, but it's a decidedly uncivil war for the Iraqis who live in it. Forty-eight bodies found in the last 24 hours and some of them women, many of them tortured before they were killed.

CNN's Arwa Damon has more on the constant state of anxiety there in Baghdad -- Arwa.

ARWA DAMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Carol. And the Iraqis are increasingly living in this climate of fear, fearing being the next victims of sectarian violence. Even women aren't being spared, being tortured if they're captured by death squads.

And all of this is going on despite military efforts, both U.S. and Iraqi, to try and bring this situation under control.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAMON (voice-over): It looks more like a surreal version of the pied piper than an operation intended to secure Baghdad neighborhoods.

Captain Brad Velotta leads a joint Iraqi-U.S. unit, part of what's called Operation Together Forward. The mood is light but the topic of conversation, serious.

CAPT. BRAD VELOTTA, U.S. ARMY: The insurgency, hidden people, population.

DAMON: And scratch beneath the surface, and you will find the fear that many Iraqi citizens mask so well.

This is Varhan (ph) Jassim. As every corner of his home is searched, Velotta gestures.

VELOTTA: Here, murder? Ali Baba?

DAMON: "We hear in other neighborhoods," Jassim says, gesturing back.

Waiting outside, Jassim's wife, Batul, says she has lost hope.

"As things got worse and worse," she says, "my hope for the future just vanished." The troops tie a marker, nicknamed "the angel of security," to the gate of homes they've searched. But it is a false sense of protection in an environment where people fear an enemy that they can't always identify.

(on camera) But the calm scene in these streets can be deceptive after 12 months up north. This company suffered its first casualty in Baghdad right on the streets of this neighborhood.

(voice-over) It was a single shot, and the attacker faded away. The enemies everyone faces here remain in the shadows.

VELOTTA: They are sophisticated. It's a credit to the very assertive, very intelligent just like we are. And it's a mind game. It's almost a chess game.

DAMON: Part of Operation Together Forward is a more focused effort on getting people the basics.

Head mistress Imad Jabr's school is getting one of these generators, but she thinks the small gesture just creates other problems.

"Who's going to provide the fuel," she says, adding she doesn't want to see the little issues being dealt with. She wants the big issues like security addressed.

She wonders if a life of uncertainty is a life worth living.

VELOTTA: That's what's been the hardest to get across to people, to have the faith to believe.

DAMON: But for these people who have been waiting for over three years to live again, who are still shocked at how their country is unraveling, that may take more than faith. It may take a miracle.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DAMON: And, Carol, many Iraqis are now living in a climate where they're hesitant to even trust their neighbors. And they're increasingly losing hope in their own security forces and the U.S. military and losing hope in the fact that their own government can actually provide them the security that they're looking for, Carol.

LIN: You know, Arwa, without giving out any security details, I mean, we have a staff of Iraqis there at the Baghdad bureau. They help you get out. They help you translate out on the streets. Who do you think it's more dangerous for, you as an American journalist or the Iraqis who work at American organizations?

DAMON: Absolutely the Iraqis. I mean, that is just definitely an easy answer for me to say.

I mean, listen, we have a relative cloud of security around us. We, at the end of the day, come back to our relatively secure compound. They are the ones that actually go out there, go out there on their own. They're the ones that have to travel to work every day to a western network's location. They're the ones that are risking being out in the streets time and time and time again to help us out.

And I'm talking the Iraqis working for us from the people that cook for us, clean for us, to our very brave cameramen and Iraqi producers. And at the end of the day, we at least have a choice to be here or not. But for them, this is their country, and they really don't have anywhere else to go.

LIN: So do they see it as a lawless society, or is this specifically all sectarian violence? I mean, you look at this U.N. report that came out this week: 6,600 bodies found on the streets of Baghdad. The type of torture that you have described in your pieces.

Is it a civil war or is it just random gangs operating in an environment that nobody can even investigate one murder, much less thousands?

DAMON: Probably what you mentioned last. And in fact, when you speak with most Iraqis, they hesitate to say that it is civil war, because they don't want to accept that, because they do say that they are not a violent society. Sunnis and Shias have been living here in this country, side by side, for centuries. There are many mixed marriages.

But no one can actually deny the fact that the sectarian violence that is going on is straining the relationship between both sides. There are some families that are intermixed that say that it is straining their relationship.

But I don't think that there are any Iraqis out there that will say to you this is a violent society. They'll say that what's going on right now are extremist factions -- are extremist factions within each group. They're the ones that are going around causing all of this violence, the torture, the killings. But that your average Iraqi just wants peace and stability and to be able to live.

And they can look at the countries around them, they can look at other gulf countries. And they often cite Kuwait as an example or Lebanon as an example of how prosperous Iraq can be. And that is really what they want.

LIN: Boy, that is hope in the mist of so much chaos. Arwa, fascinating insight into your daily life and the staff there, as well. Thank you.

All right. We've got some severe weather right here in the United States. In fact, we're looking at tornadoes in September. Reynolds Wolf has an eye on severe weather across the Midwest.

And it was the deal -- political marriage born of 9/11. The U.S. and Pakistan. Can presidents Bush and Musharraf keep this thing together? That's straight ahead in the NEWSROOM.

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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Cleanup day in Kansas. Storms caused at least four tornadoes there yesterday. Now, no one was hurt, but roofs were torn off, and trees torn down, and two tornadoes reported in Louisiana last night. No injuries there either. Mostly damage to homes and cars.

(WEATHER REPORT)

LIN: Now when weather becomes the news, you can become a CNN correspondent. If you see severe weather happening, just send us an I-Report. Go to CNN.com, click on I-Report, type in ireport@cnn.com on your cell phone and share your pictures or video. We're going to share them right here. We really credit our viewers for being sometimes at the story first, and seeing it and sending it to us. Appreciate it.

(BUSINESS HEADLINES)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: More now on the war on terror and U.S. alliance with Pakistan. Amid fresh signs of tension, President Bush today hosted Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf at the White House. Musharraf is quoted as saying that, in the wake of 9/11, he was warned by the State Department to back the U.S. or get bombed. President Bush said today that's all news to him. He said he and his guests are on the same page when it comes to fighting terror.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're on the hunt together. It's in the president's interests that al Qaeda be brought to justice. And it's in our interests. And we collaborate and we strategize and we talk a lot about how best to do this. All I can tell you is that when Osama bin Laden is found, he will be brought to justice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: All right, well, Musharraf refused to talk about his threat allegation, saying he has a book coming out and that the publisher wants him to keep quiet.

All right. Washington's relationship with Islamabad hasn't been easy, so joining us to talk about it, Michael Swetnam, CEO and president of the Potomac Institute for Policy Studies and coauthor of "Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda: Profile of a Terrorist network."

Michael's in Washington. Good to have you, Michael.

MICHAEL SWETNAM, POTOMAC INSTITUTE: Well, thank you for having me on the show.

LIN: It sounded like kumbaya, that news conference. I mean, is Pakistan really a true partner to the United States when it comes to the hunt for Osama bin Laden? SWETNAM: They actually have been a been a very, very good partner, even though it is extremely difficult for them to do so. These two presidents are both probably in the worst position any president could ask to be in. Musharraf really does want to help us and, in fact, he has helped us, but he's in a real bind. In fact, a good chunk of his country thinks that bin Laden's more of a hero than is President Musharraf.

LIN: Well, he doesn't control most of the territory in Pakistan.

SWETNAM: That's correct.

LIN: It's mostly tribally ruled. So he makes this deal, right, in Waziristan with -- excuse me, with Taliban supporters. Is that really a deal? I mean, because they operate by their own rules, their own laws. They don't really care about Musharraf. There's more in it for Musharraf than there is for Taliban supporters.

SWETNAM: Actually, the deal was brought about by the actions of Musharraf to try and support the United States. Under pressure from us, Musharraf moved 30,000 troops into that region to hunt for bin Laden and to hunt for Taliban operatives.

The presence of those troops caused those tribal leaders to almost rise up and in defiance and protests. And to settle them down, Musharraf was forced to sign this agreement whereby he would move the troops out, let them continue to rule the areas they had before, with the weak promise that they would not practice Taliban religion or Taliban form of government But, in fact, that's the birth place of the Taliban.

LIN: Yes, I mean, he's not telling them what to do. They're telling him what to do because they control a lot of the roadways, the passageways to the natural gas pipeline. I mean, he needs them more than they need him. So doesn't this deal, in effect, provide safe passage for Osama bin Laden?

SWETNAM: Well, it certainly does in many ways. Osama bin Laden will not be found as long as those tribal leaders and chieftans are protecting him and as long as the Pakistan military and the ISI remain out of the area.

LIN: OK, so what would be the consequences, then, if the United States unilaterally bombed Waziristan, if, in fact, that, for example, is where Osama bin Laden is. What would the consequences be of that? What could Musharraf really do?

SWETNAM: Well, probably nothing. In fact, if Osama bin Laden is found, what will probably happen is either the combined intelligent services, the ISI and the CIA, would spear him out of the country before it became public. Or if there had to be military action, the right thing to probably happen is for the U.S. military to sneak in there and do it. And then Musharraf can turn around and say, shame on them, they shouldn't have done that.

LIN: Right, the appropriate outrage. SWETNAM: Exactly.

LIN: But the U.S. has to be very careful to make it not appear that it's a war on Islam, right?

SWETNAM: Oh, we can't.

LIN: Unilaterally bombing tribal territory and Pakistan. So Musharraf is needed to provide that political cover as well.

SWETNAM: Absolutely. The worst thing in the world -- much worse than having Osama bin Laden and his lieutenants on the loose, and much worse and much worse than having the Taliban on the loose would be for the Pakistan government to fall and for a nation that has nuclear weapons to fall into the hands of extreme Muslims. Can you manage? It would be terrible.

LIN: No. Michael, his book, President Musharraf's book, "In the Line of Fire." Do you think any of this has to do with selling books? What do you make of that?

SWETNAM: Oh, absolutely. It's amazing how many of these dictators, whether it's Colombian dictators or Pakistani dictators, find a way to enrich themselves in the midst of a war on terrorism.

LIN: Yes, how did he get a book deal? Who's his agent? How does a guy in Pakistan get an agent?

SWETNAM: Well, obviously, he had something to say that people wanted to publish. I'm interested in hearing the story behind the threat. That should be really interesting to read.

LIN: Yes, you bet. What a tease line. And he sure made news and used that Washington visit to his own personal benefit.

SWETNAM: Very much so.

LIN: Michael Swetnam, pleasure to talk to you, thank you.

SWETNAM: Thank you.

LIN: Well, new rulers of Thailand digging up dirt on the old rulers of Thailand. The latest fallout from the coup, straight ahead in the NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Well, despite a ban on public gatherings, there were small protests in Thailand today against the military rulers who overthrew the prime minister this week. The junta today impaneled a nine-member commission to investigate alleged corruption under the previous regime. CNN's Dan Rivers brings us up to date.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAN RIVERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The leaders of the military coup here in Thailand look like they're going to continue going after the former prime minister, Thaksin Shinawatra. The Air Force chief has said they may seize some of Thaksin's assets.

They've now set up an anti-corruption commission involving nine members who will be looking into Thaksin's financing, particularly that very controversial sale of his telecommunications company, Shin Corp., which was sold to the Singaporeans for $1.9 billion at beginning of this year, as well as all his other assets as well.

It's estimated he's worth some $4 billion to $5 billion and he has assets including real estate and his own university, some of which is in his wife's name.

But as well as that, we have seen the leader of the coup, General Sonthi, getting official endorsement now from the king of Thailand, adding some legitimacy, certainly in the eyes of many people here in Thailand, for this coup.

But I think that legitimacy will only really stand as long as they stick to their promise to install an interim prime minister within two weeks and to go ahead and hold elections within a year here in Thailand.

Dan Rivers, CNN, Bangkok.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: Osama bin Laden -- wherever he is, does the U.S. need that country's permission to go get him? A closer look at the rules of engagement in the NEWSROOM.

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LIN: The spinach crisis still isn't over. Investigators want to know whether two more deaths -- yes, two more deaths -- can be blamed on spinach contaminated with E. coli bacteria. A 2-year-old boy died this week in Utah of a kidney disease associate with E. coli, and a Maryland woman in her 80s last week of an E. coli infection. The outbreak has killed one person for sure, and sickened at least 158 in 24 states now. Contamination has been traced to fields in three California counties.

Now, this is why there are police officers in courtrooms. The story behind the scuffle coming up in the CNN NEWSROOM.

And the road to Palestinian statehood has plenty of potholes. One of them, a big, red one, may be repaired. Maybe not. Depends on whom you listen to. The two most powerful Palestinians are definitely not on the same page. Details from the NEWSROOM in a moment.

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