Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsroom
More Campaign Developments; Wyoming Called for Obama
Aired March 08, 2008 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: CNN can now project the results of the Wyoming caucuses. We project Barack Obama takes the Wyoming caucuses. With 91 percent of the vote or the caucus total reporting, Barack Obama has 58 percent support to Senator Clinton's 41 percent. Again, CNN projecting Barack Obama the winner of the Wyoming caucuses.
Now there are 12 pledge delegates at stake. He will apportion - they will be apportioned between Obama and Clinton based on the percentage of caucus votes each of them got. So that's yet to be determined how many delegates each will take from today. We will break that down and work it out for you and report it when we have it.
So now we want to get on to our conversation what all of this means. I'm Jessica Yellin, first of all, in Cheyenne, Wyoming at the site of one of these caucuses. More than 1,500 people turned out for the Laramie County caucus here. It shattered previous records. Four years ago, just 160 people turned out. A sense of just how much enthusiasm there is in this race.
Joining me now to analyze and break down what all of this means, CNN's Roland Martin, a contributor with the show, Keith Boykin, a Democratic strategist and our own Cheri Jacobus, who is a Republican strategist, all joining us from various parts of the country.
Let me start with you, Roland. You know, we were all projecting that Barack Obama was likely to win Wyoming anyway. So does he get momentum out of this?
ROLAND MARTIN: Well, I think what he does, Jessica, is that he stems the tide of bad news this week of course losing Texas, losing Rhode Island, losing Ohio, only winning Vermont on Tuesday. And then coming out of that, of course, you had Stephanie Powers resigning. Of course, the whole -- Senator Clinton continuing her focus on his experience. And so, he needed some good news this week. So absolutely, this does indeed help him going into Mississippi on Tuesday.
YELLIN: Let me ask Keith Boykin, Democratic strategist, if you think that Barack Obama has sounded if I can use this phrase 'tough enough' on the stump? You know, as he came - as this (INAUDIBLE) turnout in Ohio, and they came into Mississippi and Wyoming, Senator Clinton has been throwing some pretty strong jabs. And the question, is, is Barack Obama given as good as he gets? Do you think he's sharp enough with the counter punches?
KEITH BOYKIN: Well, I think he's definitely toughened up quite a bit in the past week, I mean, after losing Texas and Ohio, his campaign needed to retool as I think Roland said before. And I think he did that. He went back and he started to be tough.
I think he's treading a fine line, though, because, you know, on the one hand, he had this one adviser out in London who's making this comment about Hillary Clinton. And that is not what Barack Obama's campaign is about. But there are people in his group of supporters who feel that way about Senator Clinton, not that she's a monster, of course. But they feel very critical of her. And they really feel very strongly about their candidate. And I think Barack's got this challenge. He's got to thread the needle. He's got to prove that he's tough and not be too tough, because his campaign is about new politics. And I think he's trying to do that now. And I think Roland's right about next Tuesday in Mississippi. So he's got some momentum going now.
YELLIN: Let me pick up on something Keith said and turn it to you, Cheri. You're a Republican strategist. Is it your sense that the intensified bickering between the two Democratic candidates is actually good for the Republican party? Or do you think it's actually a sign that the Democrats are so energized, the Republicans have an even steeper hill to climb come the general election?
CHERI JACOBUS: Well, I think it's the nature of where the discussions are going in the Democrat party, that yes, by default, it does help Republicans. But I thought the most significant thing that's happened in the last couple of weeks for the general election within the Democratic party was the ad that Hillary Clinton put up. Who do you want answering that red phone at 3:00 a.m.? And then Barack Obama responding by running the same ad.
And the fact is more Americans want John McCain to be the one answering that phone. In a Rasmussen poll that came out said that 42 percent preferred John McCain, 25 percent for Obama, 25 percent for Hillary. That is very, very significant and lets us know where this race is really going to be, what it's going to be about headed into the general election. And John McCain didn't have to spend one cent putting up an ad to make that point. So I thought that was probably the biggest thing that's happened.
MARTIN: Jessica, I think obviously from Senator Clinton's standpoint, she wanted to create some separation between her and Senator Barack Obama. That's why she ran that ad.
But I think Cheri hints at something very critical, and that is strategically, it is a bad move for the Democrats, because John McCain is indeed strong on that particular issue, but is very weak on the economy. So I wrote a piece a couple of weeks ago where I said Senator Clinton should focus on the economy. And we saw the numbers come out yesterday -- 63,000 job losses. This whole notion are we going into a recession? So that's going to be a critical issue.
I also disagree with Keith somewhat. The Obama campaign has not shown. The campaign itself, they're going to come back strong. For instance today, Congressman Steve King made these inflammatory comments regarding Senator Obama, saying that all Muslims are going to be dancing around -- al Qaeda's going to be dancing around the country if he's president because of his name, invoking that again. And so you had a very tepid response from the Obama campaign, where many of his Christian supporters have been saying wait a minute, you need to be more adamant in terms of speaking up for him and his faith. And so they do need to toughen up. They need to get stronger, because the Clinton campaign is in a very strong position now. They're going after them vigorously when it comes to various issues and the Obama campaign itself.
Obama can say one thing, but he has to have surrogates as one of his communications team far more forceful defending their candidate as opposed to allowing him to be out there trying to defend himself all alone.
JACOBUS: Oh, yes, I agree.
BOYKIN: I have to disagree with you, Roland, because I think that the Obama campaign has been tough. And Cheri's point illustrates that. When Hillary Clinton came out with that 3:00 a.m. ad, they had an ad up the same day...
MARTIN: Right, right.
BOYKIN: ...in response. That's a rapid response that we don't see normally.
JACOBUS: It did not happen, though. That's the problem. You know, on the issue of the economy, I just want to say that a poll came out that actually shows that Hillary Clinton and John McCain are strongest on the economy. So there's some interesting news coming out in these polls as you're watching them, as we start doing the head-to-heads. And I think that has got to force Barack Obama to be a little bit sharper in his message, a little bit more clear, and not be afraid to defend himself and to speak out.
BOYKIN: But Cheri...
YELLIN: Cheri...
BOYKIN: But Cheri - I'm not sure who's talking.
YELLIN: Let me make this point for a moment here. This is Jessica. Give me one second here and let me just try to direct this a bit, because I know Roland's been forceful on this point that Barack Obama really does have to throw the jabs himself. hat would you have him do? This is a man who says he's running a cleaner kind of campaign, new kind of politics, no politics of personal destruction. What would you have him do? His campaign manager has said that Senator Clinton is one of the most secretive politicians they've seen. They're being tough to reporters behind the scenes. Would you like Barack Obama to be saying these things - these words himself?
JACOBUS: Well, I think that he should. I don't know who you were directing that to.
BOYKIN: I think that was for Roland.
YELLIN: To Roland. MARTIN: Well, Jessica, this is how surrogates are used. Clinton has been extremely smart in the use of her surrogates out there, in terms of being able to define him as well. You saw her bring out all her military supporters earlier this week in terms of a show of force saying, look, these folks are with me. The Obama campaign has not done that.
She also has her members of Congress out there, speaking on her behalf. He has to do that as well. The candidate has to do his thing, but the campaign has to use the other people behind the surrogates to do their job as well. They have not done an effective job at doing that, especially this week.
BOYKIN: But that's a little like Monday morning quarterbacking, Roland. I mean, what's going on here is that Barack Obama was on a 12-0 winning streak. He won all of the races from Super Tuesday...
MARTIN: Sure.
BOYKIN: ...until Texas and Ohio on Tuesday. And now suddenly, because he lost two races, we're saying he's got to go change his whole campaign strategy.
MARTIN: No, no, no, no...
BOYKIN: I don't think that...
MARTIN: I didn't say his strategy...
BOYKIN: No, but let me just say this. I think that Barack Obama has a winning strategy. The strategy is to run a positive campaign and talk about hope and change and optimism. And the moment he starts getting down in the gutter, he can't win a mud wrestling fight with Hillary Clinton. There was an article Bob Herbert wrote about that today in "The New York Times." He can't win in the gutter. Hillary Clinton wants him in the gutter. So the moment he goes there, I think he loses. He's got to stay above the fray.
JACOBUS: But guys, there's nothing wrong...
YELLIN: Cheri...
JACOBUS: ...with candidates showing contrast. And you can't say that it's all a smear campaign or gutter politics. And that's where maybe perhaps Obama was off his game in the past week or so. He loses a couple primaries. And he seems like he doesn't know what to do now.
You can defend yourself. You can draw a contrast. And you have to back it up. And that's not smear. That's not dirty campaigning.
BOYKIN: Right.
JACOBUS: And if he doesn't know the difference, I think he's in deep trouble. The other thing is the more details which are put out there, which are very few on anything he stands for, you cannot just run on slogans of change and hope. And as he gets closer - this primary is getting tougher and tougher, Clinton is getting better at calling him on it. She's starting the campaign harder. She was off her game for a long time, didn't seem to how to know, you know, if she could hit him, what would seem like a low blow. She seems to have found the right tone on this. And he doesn't seem to know how to respond. It's only going to get tougher for him. And he's the nominee.
YELLIN: Well, folks, I got to cut it off there for just a moment. We got to go to a break. You guys have plenty of opinions. We're going to get to them all after the break. So everybody stay tuned. Don't move. We'll be back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
YELLIN: Welcome back to CNN's ballot bowl. I'm Jessica Yellin in Cheyenne, Wyoming. And CNN has projected Barack Obama the winner of the Wyoming caucuses. One caucus still ongoing but enough of the vote reported for CNN to project that Barack Obama leads here, and will come out of this state the winner, although the state's delegates have yet to be apportioned. And Senator Clinton had a strong enough showing there, 41 percent to Barack Obama's 58 percent, that she could walk away with a hefty number of those delegates as well.
One of the results of these proportional delegate allotments that we've seen throughout these Democratic contests.
We're going to continue our lively discussion. Joining me for our is Roland Martin, CNN contributor, Cheri Jacobus, a Republican strategist, Keith Boykin, a Democratic strategist, and Keli Goff, political analyst. I'm going to come to Keli first after this, because she is the neutral in all of this. But I first want to take a time for all of us to listen to the closing arguments both of these candidates made just before the Wyoming caucuses. And we can talk about them after. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm also grateful that I have my own experience to draw on. I've been fortunate enough to be on both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue, to have the great privilege of representing our country and more than 80 other countries, including of course, Iraq and Afghanistan, Pakistan, and the Middle East.
Just earlier today, I had a conversation with King Abdullah of Jordan about the situation that he and other leaders in the Middle East face today. I'm very appreciative of the confidence that these leaders around this table and others have placed in me. And some may believe that experience doesn't matter or that it even in today's world is a liability, but as generals, and admirals, ambassadors, and other senior leaders charged with protecting our security know, experience doesn't just count for something Often when lives are on the line and a decision must be made, experience counts for everything.
In this election, we need a nominee who can pass the commander-in- chief test, someone ready on day one to defend our country, and keep our families safe. And we need a president who passes that test. Because the first and most solemn duty of the president of the United States is to protect and defend our nation. And when there's a crisis, when that phone rings, whether it's 3:00 p.m. or 3:00 a.m. in the White House, there is no time for speeches and on the job training.
Senator McCain will bring a lifetime of experience to the campaign. I will bring a lifetime of experience. And Senator Obama will bring a speech that he gave in 2002. I think that is a significant difference. I think that since we now know Senator McCain will be the nominee for the Republican party, national security will be front and center in this election. We all know that.
And I think it's imperative that each of us be able to demonstrate we can cross the commander-in-chief threshold. And I believe that I've done that. Certainly Senator McCain has done that. And you'll have to ask Senator Obama with respect to his candidacy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: She's been making that same argument for the last 13 months. And since I've, you know, the American people have rejected it, because you know I think they recognize I've got 20 years of experience in bringing about change. And it wasn't just one speech. It's been a consistent opposition to the war in Iraq. It's been my judgment on issues like Pakistan and Iraq that I think that have been superior to hers.
And that's why, you know, we think we'll continue to do well. And one of the things that, you know, I hope people start asking is what exactly is this foreign experience that she's claiming. I know she talks about visiting 80 countries. It's not clear, you know, was she negotiating treaties or agreements? Or was she handling crises during this period of time?
My sense is the answer is no. So, you know, I have not seen any evidence that she's better equipped to handle a crisis. And if, you know, the only criteria is longevity in Washington, then she's certainly not going to beat John McCain on that.
There's no doubt that Senator Clinton went very negative over the last week . And, you know, the kitchen sink strategy I'm sure had some impact particularly in a context where many of you in the press corps had been persuaded that you had been too hard on her and too soft on me. And so, you know, complaining about the refs apparently worked a little bit this week. And so, you know, in addition to my call to Loren Michaels, you know, hopefully now people feel like everything's evened out, and we can start actually covering the campaign properly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
YELLIN: All right. Let me put this question to Keli Goff. You heard their arguments. This is Senator Clinton's classic argument that she has more experience and so she's better qualified. But suddenly, it seems to be connecting in a way it didn't before. Do you buy Senator Obama's argument that the refs, the press has been easier on him than on her? And the media bought into that message and went soft on her suddenly?
KELI GOFF, AUTHOR, "PARTY CRASHING": Well, look, it sort of ranks right up there with whenever, you know, big conglomerates hear the allegation that there is a liberal bias, right? People then bend over backwards to try to show that they're not biased. And then in doing so, you sort of tilt the meter the other direction. And you have a few more conservative voices heard to prove that you're "not biased."
And that's sort of, I'm sure, what's playing out right here, which is that, you know, Senator Clinton calls attention to the "Saturday Night Live" sketch, which I didn't realize was going to resonate the way that it did when my friends first started talking about it . And then lo and behold, it gets mentioned in the debate. The media picks up on it. And of course, the media wants to prove they're not biased. So now everyone's sort of jumping on Obama. I think, you know, she got the effect that she wanted.
YELLIN: All right, so Roland, Keli agrees. She seems to think the media has gone softer on Obama for a while. Do you think that this...
GOFF: You know, Jessica, can I clarify? I actually, no...
YELLIN: Yes.
GOFF: ...I think she bought into the perception and the argument that she was making. I didn't say that I think that the media has been softer on Obama I think that the media bought into this -- the fear factor of her making this allegation that the media was not only being harder on her, but possibly had a gender bias. And I think that that made a lot of the members of the media panic. And whether they'll face it or not. And I think that's why we start seeing people go a little tougher on him.
YELLIN: Getting tougher on him now. Roland, do you think it's a coincidence the media has gotten - first of all, do you think the media has gotten tougher on Barack Obama, Roland?
MARTIN: Well, certainly, I think the media has responded to Senator Clinton's assertions to those of Howard Wolfson in terms of, look, because look, we do that . Look, I run three newspapers. And you're always sensitive to anybody saying that you're tilting more favorably to one person than the other. So the natural inclination is to go back, is to say, OK, what are we doing, examine our stories and see what's going on. But it's also - but that is effective politicking. And that's the key here. I'll give you an example, Jessica. When I talk about the - I'm not saying that Obama should get in the gutter, but I'm talking about how do you change the dialogue and shift away from certain conversations and to others.
Senator Clinton was very good at shifting the conversation to the whole issue of experience. The Obama campaign then focuses on the experience. And then she focuses in on the economy. And that was a critical issue in Ohio.
That's -- so you get him responding to one area, while you got your other area all alone. So look at this week. Look, Mississippi and North Carolina, if you look at the delegates available in those two states, they nearly equal Pennsylvania. But what the Clinton campaign did was they basically said forget Wyoming. We're not even talking about Wyoming results. Forget Mississippi. All the focus is on Pennsylvania.
The Obama folks should have been able to say, wait a minute, we want to focus on Wyoming. We'll get to Pennsylvania when we get to it. We'll focus on Mississippi. Then we're going to focus on the other states. That's how you have to be nimble and move quickly to change the conversation.
The Clinton folks have done it very well this week. The Obama folks with this win likely to win on Tuesday, they got to get going after Mississippi to begin to define the conversation. Because right now, they are responding. They're not on the offensive.
BOYKIN: Again, this sounds like more Monday morning quarterbacking, though, Roland because...
MARTIN: Well, that's what we do after a loss, Keith.
BOYKIN: Well, I understand that's the job here, but the truth is, though, that both candidates are running good campaigns. I mean, Barack Obama is leading the delegates. He's leading in the popular vote.
MARTIN: Very true.
BOYKIN: He's running a good campaign. You can't criticize him for that.
Hillary Clinton has won most of the big states. She's running a good campaign. You can't criticize them for the campaigns. The problem is not that Barack Obama isn't getting nasty enough or he's not fighting hard enough. The problem isn't Hillary Clinton is fighting too hard. The problem is really that the American public, the Democratic party, wants both of these guys. The American public likes Hillary Clinton. They like Barack Obama, or at least the Democrats do. And they can't figure out which one to pick. So...
(CROSS TALK)
GOFF: I think the Democratic party might want both, but the general electorate does not want both. And that's pretty clear in terms of the electability numbers that we all see. And so, I actually think that that's sort of the bigger issue here.
BOYKIN: But they want change though.
(CROSS TALK)
YELLIN: Wait, wait, hey guys, give us a second. Let me ask Cheri the question, because she hasn't had a chance to weigh in on this. Do you think that the Democrats, you're sort of watching from the other side, the Democrats effort to talk about the economy is really going to hurt your candidate in the fall? John McCain really not known for his strength on the economy and really known for Iraq.
JACOBUS: Well, John McCain is very strong on the economy. And he's been dealing with the economic issues for 25 years.
GOFF: That's not what Mitt Romney said.
JACOBUS: What he has said is that he is very strong on foreign policy and on the defense issues, but that doesn't mean he's weak on the economy. And as I mentioned...
GOFF: He said he was to "The Wall Street Journal," Cheri. And those were his words.
JACOBUS: Well, what I pointed out in the last segment was that the polls show that voters in the general election had he and Hillary about equal on the economy. And Barack Obama way down below them.
I just want to say something, too, about this issue of experience, because you just played the tapes of the closing arguments as you called them. The reason the Clinton argument on experience is working is because of the repetition. And as we get closer to the election and closer to these votes, people start paying more attention. Democrats are paying more attention. They're taking it more seriously. And that's - and you know, a double-edged sword for Hillary Clinton, because on experience, she's going to make that argument very, very well against Barack Obama. And she can win it, but it's going to hurt her in the general election, because if that is the issue then as I said, you know, John McCain has it all over her, but the reason...
BOYKIN: Cheri...
(CROSS TALK)
YELLIN: And we need a break, ladies and gentlemen. We are going to come right back and talk about Michigan and Florida and whether they should be back in play. All that's on the other side of this break. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
YELLIN: Welcome back to "ballot bowl" on this caucus day. Here in Wyoming, CNN has projected that Barack Obama will win the Wyoming caucus. We've also determined he should walk away with seven of the pledge delegates, at least seven of the 12 pledge delegates. Senator Clinton winning at least four of those pledge delegates.
There remains one delegate yet to be determined by our math, where exactly that one remaining delegate will go. So a good day for both of them. They both walk away with a significant number of delegates. And we are going to get back to our very heated panel in a short bit. But first, I want to take it over to my friend, Dan Lothian, who's over in the city of brotherly love covering the other side of this story. Dan?
DAN LOTHIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right. Well, we've been buffeted by some high winds and some rain here. So things have calmed down a bit. Hopefully, we can stay on the air.
Now that things are essentially winding down in Wyoming, the focus, of course, will be to future contests. We're here in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania, of course, having a crucial contest coming up on April 22nd. This will be the focus for both of the campaigns. They've really been ramping up their operations here, spending a lot of time here.
The governor of the state, a Democrat, Ed Rendell who has been a vocal supporter of Senator Hillary Clinton. He will try to deliver this state for her. So there will be a big battle in this key battleground state.
Also, another contest coming up on Tuesday in Mississippi. And that is where we find Sean Callebs, who is in Ellisville, Mississippi, where former President Bill Clinton will be speaking shortly. Sean?
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Dan, exactly right. The last time that a president came to this town here in Ellisville was back in 1909. So it's a really big deal that former President Bill Clinton is going be here today.
We're in a Jones County junior college, a gymnasium here on campus. And about 2,000 people have squeezed in here waiting to hear from the former president. And really, you can say that Mississippi is really relishing its role in the spotlight right now. As much of the attention around the country turns to Mississippi. 33 delegates up for grabs at stake coming up this Tuesday. And it's a very important time as well, because this is an area that has gone Republican in the presidential race since 1976. And the Democratic party believes that right now is ripe for change, that they have two strong candidates going at it, trying to see who is going to get the nomination for the presidency.
Bill Clinton is expected to be here in a matter of minutes. We're told he was supposed to be here at the top of the hour. But Dan, as we all know, punctuality is really not a trademark of Clinton out on the campaign trail stumping for his wife.
This is his third stop today. He earlier today was in Passe Christiane, down on the coast of Mississippi, then in the town of Biloxi. As you can imagine, he was talking about Hurricane Katrina down there and what Senator Clinton had done for people in that area. He pulled out a very popular name among the GOP, saying that Senator Trent Lott has praised Hillary Clinton for the work that she has done trying to bring aid, trying to bring funding to that area of the state.
There's a lot of issues that are very important to voters here in the state, education, health care. But the overriding issue, the economy. The economic landscape in this state has changed somewhat significantly over the past several years. The long time jobs that people had or their parents had that came with a pension, retirement plan, or health care plan, they're going away.
OK, now we're going to hear the group coming out that is ahead of President Clinton. (INAUDIBLE) Johnson, Franklin Jones, and the president. Let's listen to what former President Bill Clinton is going to tell the crowd here at Jones County Junior College as he continues to stump for his wife in his effort to see her elected the next president.
LOTHIAN: But as we wait for former President Bill Clinton to come out and speak to that crowd in Ellisville, Mississippi, I want to go back to our lively debate with our panel, Roland Martin, a CNN contributor; Keith Boykin, a Democratic strategist and editor of "The Daily Voice;" Cheri Jacobus, a Republican strategist; and Keli Goff, a political analyst.
Roland, I want to start with you. In Mississippi, where Senator Obama has -- seems to be showing some strong support there, what does, or what can former President Clinton do to kind of change the shift, to get more voters there to focus on his wife, Senator Clinton?
MARTIN: Well, again, Mississippi is one of those so-called red states that Senator Clinton has been dismissing all campaign. But I think what the Clinton campaign strategy is is not to get - not to hope for Obama to get a double-digit win. That's what their strategy is.
I can guarantee you that if he does not get a double digit win in Mississippi, they're going to be able to - they're going to say that oh, he is somehow weakening he did -- they will compare Mississippi to South Carolina, because they will look at the demographics and say that they are comparable in terms of African-American support.
That's what his mission is. And you notice what he is doing. He's doing the same thing they did in Ohio, going to many rural areas there in terms -- because they know in 30-plus percent of whites in Mississippi are going to vote as well. And so, it's going to be real interesting to see again what the margin is. Certainly, they think Obama's going to win. That's how they're going to spin it. Right now, it's all about how do you spin wins and losses.
LOTHIAN: And Keith, I want to ask you, does he really have to -- or rather does Senator Clinton really have to focus on the economy? I mean, we're hearing that people there care about a lot of the issues that most Americans care about, health care, education, the environment. But certainly does he have to focus on the economy as a winning tool there in that state?
BOYKIN: I think that the economy is the big issue for the Democratic voters all throughout the country right now. For the exact same reasons that Roland pointed out earlier, the 63,000 jobs that were lost last month, the fact that gasoline prices may hit $4 a gallon. And the president of the United States doesn't even know that.
The oil prices have tripled since the president took office. The economy is in recession or close to recession. And the American voters, the Democratic voters in particular, know that better than the party leaders in many instances and better than the media even. And so, it would be in their interest for the candidates, both Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton to focus on the economy, because that's what will decide the election in the fall, not national security.
LOTHIAN: And Cheri Jacobus, our Republican strategist, there's so much focus on the Democratic side now. Seems to be on the economy. The forte for Senator John McCain seems to be on Iraq and foreign policy. I mean, does Senator McCain get hurt by so much discussion being driven around the economy?
JACOBUS: No, not at all. As I mentioned before, his numbers are equal with Hillary Clinton on the economy, with Barack Obama falling far behind. And I think what Hillary Clinton probably should do is really hit on the thing that has been working for her that seems to have kept her - you know, gotten her back in the game. And that is to talk about experience, because that seems to be what's working. She's honed her message a little bit. And I think that she's hitting that message home.
The other thing that's kind of interesting on this, too, is when you look at a recent poll, Barack Obama's negative and positives are identical nationally to John McCain's. And it's interesting, because Obama has really not filled in the blanks. If it's a blank slate, we would think that his unfavorables would be very, very low.
So the Clinton campaign needs to really get in there and pick those numbers and find out why nationally, Obama's numbers, you know, unfavorables are the same as McCain, who's been beat up by the Democrats all these months, and has been beat up by conservative talk radio, has been beat up by a lot of Republicans. Yet, he still has maintained a degree of strength. He's a known quantity.
MARTIN: Come on, Cheri, you're playing with numbers here.
JACOBUS: He's a known - these are real numbers. He's a known quantity and Obama isn't. So...
MARTIN: Cheri, you're playing with numbers.
JACOBUS: The Clinton - the campaign needs to go in there. The Clinton campaign needs to go in there and pick apart those numbers and find out why that is.
GOFF: Well, I mean, I think aside from the Rush Limbaughs of the world, and the Anne Coulter, who can go start their own support group for conservatives who don't like John McCain and like Hillary Clinton or what have you. I think that the idea that John McCain has somehow been really beat up by the main stream media is a little off base. I mean, I'm not really sure where that's coming from. And particularly in the last couple of weeks. I think Barack Obama is starting to shift and - or that criticism that's probably where some of those numbers are coming from.
The one thing I actually would agree with what Cheri said would be on the issue of experience. And that message apparently connecting, because if you look at the Pugh poll that just came out, it did show that the word that voters, not the majority, but the word most people used for Barack Obama was inexperience.
However, he also had a lot more positive words to describe him than Hillary Clinton did, including one word that we can't say on family- friendly television, but which was mentioned on "Meet the Press."
BOYKIN: Well, and the experience issue is really a wash. Let me be honest about this. I worked in the White House - in the Clinton White House after having gone to law school with Barack Obama right before that. It doesn't require working in the Senate in order to be experienced president.
What you need to be an experienced president is to be a president. Bill Clinton had no more foreign policy experience than Barack Obama does when he ran for president and was elected in 1992. John McCain has never been president either. There is no other qualifying experience for being president, other than being president. I don't care what Hillary...
JACOBUS: We live in different times. We're in a post 9/11 world. It's a different world right now. And people are looking at things very, very differently than they did when Bill Clinton was elected.
(CROSS TALK)
LOTHIAN: Let me jump in right here. This is a lively debate. I know we'll continue on the other side of this break . We'll also get back to Ellisville, Mississippi, where we're waiting momentarily, we should hear from former President Bill Clinton. Back after this on "Ballot Bowl '08."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
YELLIN: Welcome back to CNN's ballot bowl. I'm Jessica Yellin. As we told you before the break, we are monitoring a live speech from former President Bill Clinton in Ellisville, Mississippi. We'll bring you some of that when he gets to the meat of his remarks.
But meantime, I'm in Wyoming, the state where we have projected here at CNN, that Barack Obama will win the caucus held here that's been held today. Obama getting awarded around seven delegates. Senator Clinton will win at least four, we project, out of the total 12 pledge delegates that this state has to offer. They have an additional six super delegates. But with 96 percent of the caucuses reporting, Barack Obama 59 percent, Senator Clinton 40 percent. They both walk away today with something.
Now I want to go back to the panel, because they've got a lot to say. Rejoining Roland Martin, first of all.
Roland, this is - Roland, I should say a CNN contributor. This is one of the more unusual political years. Not only do we have this fierce contest between two Democrats energizing the party, but we have two huge states that argue they've been disenfranchised. Michigan and Florida will not have their delegates seated at the convention as things stand now. What should we do about this? Or what should the party, I should say, do about this? MARTIN: Well first of all, let me go ahead and say this here. It was the ridiculous trifling elected officials in Michigan and in Florida that put us in this position. Democrats have been complaining about Governor Charlie Crist, saying that oh, it's the Republican governor in Florida. Well, they say nothing about their own Democratic Governor Jennifer Granholm in Michigan, who did the same thing. They ignored the party rules. They jumped - they had everybody else. And I find it amazing that 48 other states could follow the rules, but these two states choose not to follow the rules. And now they want the Democratic party to bail them out because of their decision.
I do not support a re-do in Florida and Michigan. Nor - I mean, bottom line is they did not follow the rules. We all knew what it was. And so, I think they're going to live with it, because they messed up. Nobody else did. So they should accept the blame. And Governor Crist and Governor Granholm, they should be apologizing to America for causing this problem.
BOYKIN: I completely agree with you, Roland. But then the question is, what do you do about Florida and Michigan?
MARTIN: You've already made a decision. They don't get the delegates. They knew what the penalty was. They chose to ignore the rules. And so I'm sorry, that's why you have rules.
BOYKIN: I agree with you about the rules, but that's an untenable situation. The idea that Florida voters could be disenfranchised in 2008 after what happened in 2000, I think, is unacceptable for the Democratic party and with Michigan, too.
I agree that Jennifer Granhold, should accept responsibility. Charlie Crist should accept responsibility. They're the ones who created the problem. But now the Democrats have an obligation to figure out a solution to the problem. And I don't know what that solution is. Maybe a revote, maybe the answer...
MARTIN: No, no...
BOYKIN: As long as the Democratic party doesn't pay for it. $28 million is too much for the party to pay when the party only has $3.7 million of cash on hand.
MARTIN: Keith, what's the real issue here? Is the real issue seating their delegates? Because if you want to just seat their delegates, you can split the delegates down to half and say OK, Clinton gets half, Obama gets half. Now they're seated. No.
The real issue is the Clinton campaign, they want the delegates seated based upon those bogus results of when they had the election. The Obama campaign doesn't want that to happen because they say their name wasn't on the ballot in Michigan. There was no campaigning in Florida.
YELLIN: OK.
MARTIN: So they got to decide what's the real issue. YELLIN: Strong words, bogus results. That's (INAUDIBLE). Cheri Jacobus, you're a Republican...
MARTIN: It didn't count.
YELLIN: Oh, well, they were both on the - I mean the Clintons would say they were both on the ballot. They had a chance. And people who voted there seemed to care. Cheri, you've got to be loving this. Not in Michigan, though.
JACOBUS: No, I'm not loving it. I actually think that this is - everybody's watching this to see what happens to democracy. I think Republicans are very interested in it, because we're learning from it. But Americans are interested in it, because if they think that the party bosses are really controlling things, and they're both - and people's votes don't matter, that affects everybody. So the Democrats do have a bit of a problem on their hands to say the least. But they can't get away with just not seating those delegates. They'll have to do a revote. It's a matter of who's going to pay for it. That really does seem to be the strongest point of contention.
And I - it's my understanding that the Clinton campaign actually would support a revote. I'm sure they'd like to seat the delegates that they have, but they certainly support a revote. But to simply do nothing and not let the votes count would be -- I think there'd be chaos in the streets.
GOFF: I was just going to jump in really quickly back to what...
YELLIN: You're making the important point that the delegates in Michigan, not every candidate was on the ballot. Only Senator Clinton was on the ballot there.
GOFF: That's exactly what I was about to say. And the point I was going to make is that...
MARTIN: Yes?
GOFF: Sorry. I was just going to say really quickly and let's not forget remember what the statement was when Senator Clinton was specifically asked back then why she was the only Democratic candidate continuing to leave her name on the ballot. And do you remember what her response was? Which is I'm only doing it because it would be disrespectful. I believe it will be disrespectful to the voters in Michigan to take my name off. And look where we are today. I just think it's - you know, it's a bit disingenuous for us to simply pretend that they're sort of not this - the groundwork wasn't sort of being laid for this.
JACOBUS: It was brilliant on the part of the Clinton campaign.
GOFF: It certainly was. I agree.
(CROSS TALK)
JACOBUS: Well, you look at it as loose change. It's either loose change you're going to throw out, loose change you're going to cash in, you know, or loose change you're going to trade or sink in your pocket. They knew they were going to need those votes.
GOFF: That's right.
JACOBUS: They were going to need it for something somewhere down the line. At the very least, they throw them out, they wouldn't need them. And as it turns out, this could be - that decision could have been the one that might give her the nomination.
(CROSS TALK)
YELLIN: But this discussion's going to have to continue on the other side of the break. And the one question we remain unanswered, we have not answered is, who will pay for this $20 million it would cost for a re-do in Florida?
MARTIN: Keith has the money, Jessica.
YELLIN: Ten million in Michigan.
GOFF: Pass the hat.
YELLIN: OK, Roland, you can negotiate it for everybody.
On the other side of the break, we're going to dip into some sound from former President Bill Clinton speaking in Mississippi. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TIME STAMP: 1848:18
YELLIN: Welcome back to "ballot bowl". We promise you live and unfiltered, where here is Bill Clinton speaking right now in Mississippi.
BILL CLINTON, FMR. PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: While the cost of health care has doubled, the cost of a college education up 75 percent at four-year schools, the cost of gasoline is through the roof. Even now the food - the cost of food is going up more than twice the rate of inflation. And for the first time in 16 years, I have people telling me as I go to these little rallies that they are having to watch what they buy at the grocery store, because they won't be able to buy medicine for themselves or their parents at the end of the month if they don't.
So you've got this middle-class squeeze. In the last three months of last year, we had the biggest number of home foreclosures in American history, at least since the Great Depression. Last month, we lost 63,000 jobs. And so this deal is not working.
You heard Ronnie say we balanced the budget and submitted four budget surpluses, paying down the debt nearly $600 billion for the first time in 70 years. You didn't have a home mortgage crisis then. People weren't worried about whether we're going to create jobs then. We created more manufacturing jobs in six years of the eight years I was president. That's the first time it happened in a month of Sundays.
Family income rose for six years in a row for the first time since the early 1970s. And now we have added $4 trillion to the national debt. And we can't, among other things, we can't enforce our trade laws anymore. You know why? Because we borrow money from the people who sell us stuff.
And I'm not blaming - this - I'm not bashing. We don't have anybody to blame for this but ourselves. But who do we have big trade deficits with? China, Japan, Korea, and the oil exporters. That's the big four. Everyday, we have to borrow money to pay for Bill Clinton's tax cut, our soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq, the education and everything else that the federal government does. Who loans us that money every day in the order. Guess what? Same order. China, Japan, Korea and the oil exporters.
This is not rocket science. We are enforcing the trade laws at one fifth of the rate we were when I was president. For the simple reason that nobody pushes the banker around. Let me think about it. Monday morning, you get up, have breakfast, have an extra cup of coffee to get your nerve up, saddle down to the local bank, walk in, borrow...
YELLIN: Bill Clinton is speaking live in Ellisville, Mississippi sounding like professor emeritus of the United States. We will come back with our panel after this break. So stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
YELLIN: Welcome back to CNN's "ballot bowl". We were just listening to Bill Clinton speaking live in Mississippi a moment ago. Let's listen in to something he had to say earlier stumping in Mississippi today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL CLINTON: Most of the places he would win the urban areas and the upscale voters. And she wins the traditional rural areas that we lost when President Reagan was president. If you put those two things together, you'd have an almost unstoppable force.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
YELLIN: Now Bill Clinton is talking about that dream ticket, the idea of having both Senator Clinton and Barack Obama on the ticket. The big question is, who would be running as president? Who as vice president? I wish we could go to the whole panel on this, but we have time for Roland Martin. Let me ask you, is this Bill Clinton playing to the Democratic base or is there strategy here to help Senator Clinton?
MARTIN: Oh, that's strategy here. Ed Rendell, he's thrown this whole deal out. Clinton has. A lot of her supporters, they have -- the Obama campaign I've talked to - they want no part of this conversation, but they're trying to do - they're trying to plant seeds by saying she's a better candidate. If you go to the convention, super delegates choose her. Hey, we're going to add him to the ticket of the vice president. That's what they want. The Obama folks want no part of this. So it's smart politics on their part.
But hey, I wrote on CNN.com a month ago, this is not a ticket the Obama folks want or the Clinton folks want. It might be a ticket out of necessity. But again, smart politics.
GOFF: Jessica?
YELLIN: Keli, let me ask you. Do you think - yes, go ahead.
GOFF: I'm sorry, I hate to be the pessimistic voice here, but what I also think is really interesting about that statement is I think that that's a bit of presumptuous wishful thinking to just sort assume that some of these blue collar Reagan Democrat voters are definitely going to be more likely vote for a ticket that has both a woman and an African-American on there.
And I know it's the thing that no one likes to talk about. But I just think that for the president to sort of put out there is - you know, a dream scenario to win those Reagan Democratic voters who just - is a little bit presumptuous, especially now.
JACOBUS: Well, yes, Obama...
YELLIN: Cheri, would you like a Republican against that dream ticket?
JACOBUS: You know, Obama doesn't need Clinton. Clinton would need Obama. And look, if Obama's the nominee, we're going to have a general election where you've got a rock star running against a true American hero. And that's...
MARTIN: Wait a minute. Wait a minute.
JACOBUS: And Hillary Clinton will be wishing that rather than carpet bagging her way to run for the Senate in New York in 2000, that she'd waited to run in Illinois, her home state, in 2004. In which case, she would have won and none of us would even know Barack Obama's name right now.
BOYKIN: Talk about Monday morning quarterbacking.
YELLIN: Keith, you got a quick 10 seconds.
BOYKIN: OK, the reality is that Cheri's right about one thing. Obama doesn't need Clinton. Clinton needs Obama. But I think the two of them actually could be strong together. It's just a question of whether the American public is ready for it.
MARTIN: Hey you all, the top show is "American Idol."
(CROSS TALK)
YELLIN: We want you on "American Idol," Roland. We've got to thank all of you for coming out. I wish we could continue. We are going to take break now. "Ballot bowl" continues tonight at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. And right after this break, we have Lou Dobbs this week, so stay tuned to CNN. Don't for go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.voxantshop.com
