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Terror in Mumbai
Aired November 28, 2008 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
T.J. HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: Here's the latest that we do have: 160 dead, at least, in these attacks that started on Wednesday. We do know among the dead two Americans that have been killed. Also, we know that 15 foreigners killed, 14 police, 11 militants. And we do know some 327 at least have been wounded.
Among the dead, again, the two Americans, a 58-year-old man and his daughter, a 13-year-old, from Virginia, much more on that. State Department saying that they still believe possibly that Americans are in danger on the ground in Mumbai.
There you are. You're looking at a picture there. Naomi Scherr is her name, 13 years old, and her dad, Alan, 58-year-old, both killed in these attacks. And, again, some 15 foreigners altogether that we know of have been killed.
We have been watching this story unfold really with these horrific images we have been seeing for the past couple of days. Now, I want to take you back with this piece now from ITN's Andy Davies going through for you piece by piece, minute by minute, from the time the terrorists got to Mumbai until the very latest we're seeing today. Take a listen to the play by play.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a security camera picture that is now out. You can clearly see that, clearly see that two terrorists at the CST terminal...
ANDY DAVIES, ITN REPORTER (voice-over): They didn't run. They didn't look panicked. They walked into the old Victoria Terminal in Mumbai, this matched photograph taken perhaps just moments before they entered the main passenger hall, and then another image captured of one of them, casual almost, probably in the process of raising his gun to pen fire, creating a scene of devastation within the terminal.
There are no definitive figures on how many were killed here, but these images leave little doubt about just how simple it had been for the two armed men to kill again and again. Some reports suggested grenades had been thrown into the crowd.
"I was at the station," said this man, "on my way home to my village with my mother. We were about to board the train when suddenly a bomb exploded just a few paces away from my luggage. My wife was hit by a bullet."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are the boats that these very heavily armed terrorists actually come in on.
DAVIES: This was how they arrived earlier on the Mumbai Peninsula, claimed the police, in an inflatable boat, about two dozen of them (INAUDIBLE) near the famous Gateway of India monument.
It appears that they then dispersed in selected units. At least two of the gunmen made their way to the Cafe Leopold, a landmark on the tourist trail. They stood outside on the pavement, said the owner of the restaurant, and just opened fire.
"It was tremendously loud," said Diane Murphy, a British woman who was in the restaurant. "My husband and I were hit," she said, "as were lots of people. The gunfire stopped for a few seconds, then started again. My husband was losing consciousness."
Another eyewitness, an Australian, said the two shooting looked just like boys.
Several minutes later, at about 20 past 9:00, it was reported that two gunmen entered a nearby Jewish center, taking a rabbi and two family members hostage. It was around this time also that the shooting at the railway station reportedly began. When it was over, CCTV cameras tracked the movements of the two men.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the CCTV footage of the two terrorists after they CST, that is (INAUDIBLE) station. They're stealthily walking past the Cama Hospital.
DAVIES: The Cama Hospital, again, gruesome evidence of further casualties.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Three people were killed at the hospital. Two of them were staff. They chased the terrorists to protect the patients. And they were shot and died.
DAVIES: This time, it was reported that the police had engaged the terrorists. The circumstances of his death remain unclear, but some have suggested that it was here that the chief of Mumbai's anti- terror squad, Hemant Karkare, was killed.
In total, 14 police officers are said to have been killed. At one point, a police vehicle was actually hijacked by some of the gunmen. As it charged down the highway past the reportedly bemused police, shots were suddenly fired from the jeep. One man took a bullet right through the middle of his hand.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This police van is not being driven by policemen. It is being driven by terrorists who attacked the CST station. Presumably, these could be the same two terrorists whose pictures we just showed you.
DAVIES: It's understood that, within 10 minutes of the first shots being heard at the railway station, the Taj Mahal Hotel had been attacked and occupied, so, too, the Oberoi Hotel. Twenty minutes later, three people were killed further up the peninsula, at one of the dockyards, a bomb ripping apart a taxi, leaving a blurred chronology of which units of gunmen were operating where. But there appear to be at the very least three groups carrying out simultaneous attacks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These men are not amateurs. These are in a completely different league.
DAVIES: They were well-prepared, well-organized and knew exactly it seems where to find both the easiest and most valuable of targets.
This footage shows one of the men appearing to take cover behind bushes. The time code at the top of the screen reads 10:19 p.m., just minutes before it was reported that another attack was taking place aside a downtown cinema complex.
After that, there was another explosion beneath a flyover, in total, to date, 10 attacks.
For the people of Mumbai, it may have appeared utterly indiscriminate, grotesquely random, but these attacks were clearly well-coordinated.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HOLMES: Yes, well-coordinated and this started on Wednesday. And it still might not be over yet, reports that possibly a gunman still holed up at the Taj Hotel.
I want to bring in Mike Brooks, our security analyst here.
You and I were just chatting about this. Hard to believe -- we have seen all this activity with the military, with the police forces and the commandos, that video, dramatic stuff we have been seeing. How is it possible there might be still somebody running around that hotel?
MIKE BROOKS, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Well, you know, as the commandos, the national security guards go through and they're clearing this hotel, they're calling it cleansing. They will go through and clear it. They will go ahead and hold what they have.
But, T.J., one of the things that I talked about yesterday and I think this could be -- could hold true -- there's always a possibility, especially when you have a group as well organized as they are, that you could have sleepers in the hotel, people who are there, seemingly as guests, but they're escorting them out and then they could turn on the security forces. There's always that possibility.
And we heard yesterday, too, that there were control rooms in the two hotels, which is basically the command-and-control structure of this terrorist group. So, there's always that possibility you have of sleepers and that sounds to me like a pretty feasible possibility.
HOLMES: Where is this investigation going to focus? Will it focus certainly on what you talk about, those sleepers? This seems like a massive investigation that has to take place now. And we talked about as well how organized and how much planning had to go into this, but at the same you think, wait a minute, how much planning does it take to just drive down the street and start shooting? It still takes a good level of planning here.
BROOKS: A lot of reconnaissance, a lot of planning. They could have been planning this for six months to a year.
And yesterday we were talking with Jim Clancy, one of our anchors from CNN International. And Jim has said that the security posture at the hotels had been pretty high and had just been lowered. So, did they figure that this is a good time to go ahead and pull the trigger? Because, number one, they knew where they were going to hit.
We saw that piece just a minute ago, 10 attacks, 10 different locations, vulnerable locations, and where a lot of people were. The two Americans were killed in the cafe at one of the hotels. I think the reconnaissance, the planning, it had been going on for a long time. And they decided that this was the optimal time to do it.
HOLMES: And they did it.
And, again, it still might not be over. Ladies and gentlemen, we continue to follow -- again, one person might still be holed up and attackers still holed up in the Taj Hotel. That continues.
We're hoping -- we will have a live report, actually, from the Taj Hotel, or from Mumbai, here after the break.
We continue to follow this continuing breaking story, but at least -- the numbers right now -- 160 dead, two Americans among them. The State Department believes more Americans could be in danger on the ground, that word they put out early today, some 300-plus injured, but the situation continues there, a city under siege in Mumbai.
Stay here. We're all over it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: We continue to follow the developing story in Mumbai, India, where the terrorist attacks that happened two days ago appear to possibly still be ongoing.
We have the death count up to 160-plus, two Americans among them, 300-plus injured, 10 different locations we know of at least that have been attacked, one of them being the Taj Mahal Hotel. That was the area of a siege there where hostages were taken and many were killed.
Our Matthew Chance is there for us right now.
And, Matthew, there was reports that possibly there was still one gunman holed up in that hotel. What is the very latest there on the ground about what is happening there?
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I'm outside the hotel now, T.J., and there's still a great deal of confusion about what the situation is inside the hotel. All day, authorities have been sort of indicating that they believe at least one militant is holed up inside and that they were poised to overpower him and bring this siege to an end. But that simply has not happened. And all the time, every few minutes or so, we're hearing gunshots, explosions still coming from that hotel. It hasn't happened for about half-an-hour, but it's still been going on through the night now.
And there's very little sign of this siege coming to an end at this stage. And that's leading to a great deal of frustration locally that Indian authorities haven't acted quicker to bring this siege situation to a much quicker end. It has now been going on for well over 48 hours -- T.J.
HOLMES: And, Matthew, do they -- and you're talking about they think they might -- you're talking about gun -- you still hear gunfire in there. You still hear explosions in there. And we talked about one person possibly still being holed up. Do they believe they know where he is? Are any hostages also involved in this particular siege?
CHANCE: I think that's the problem. It's a big hotel. There are well over 400 rooms in the Taj Mahal, in the Continental Hotel here.
And what the authorities have to do, the security forces, of course, go room to room and search every one of them. Now, in each of the rooms, there is a different challenge. It may be guests who have holed up inside in order to try and save their own lives. It may be people who are being held hostage. It may be those militants who have been booby-trapped the rooms. Who knows.
They have to proceed with absolute caution. And that is why we're seeing such slow progress by the Indian security forces to bring this siege to an end.
HOLMES: All right, our Matthew Chance for us there on the ground at the Taj Hotel, Matthew, we appreciate your reporting, again, from the hotel where it appears that this is still an ongoing situation. We have been following this for two-plus days going on now and it doesn't appear to be over.
The Taj Mahal, the area that was a major focal point of this siege, it sounds like somebody is still holed up.
We're starting to hear a lot of stories from people who have been able to survive this nightmare there in Mumbai. We have been seeing those from really visitors there and locals as well.
Alex Chamberlen is one of them. He was actually at the Oberoi Hotel, again, another major focal point of this particular siege, where many died and also where hostages were taken.
Alex was able to get away. And I have it right. Alex is on the phone with me now?
All right, Alex. ALEX CHAMBERLEN, ESCAPED OBEROI HOTEL: Hi.
HOLMES: Hey there, Alex.
Thank you for spending some time with us and telling us your story. And I think I have your story right. You were in that hotel, and you were eating with someone. You heard gunshots go off. Take it from there. What happened?
CHAMBERLEN: Yes.
We were having dinner at the Kandahar Restaurant in the Oberoi. And I heard gunshots and my friends thought they were firecrackers. And they were not, obviously. And the waitress then appeared with blood all over her arm and she had been shot. And people started running to the kitchen and hiding behind tables in there.
And me and my friends did that. And then this gunman came in and ushered everybody through the kitchen through a door at the back and then on to the emergency staircase. And we got on to the staircase and there were about 30 or 40 people that I could see on the staircase. And then above us, there was another gunman. There were shots fired and a couple of loud blasts from grenades, I think.
HOLMES: And, Alex, tell me, what was this gunman -- what was he saying? What was he directing? Was he trying find -- and we had some reports that some of these gunmen were looking for people with British or American passports.
CHAMBERLEN: Yes. Yes. He basically just ushered us to all walk up the stairs for about four or five flights, and then told everyone to stop and put their hands up.
And he said, "Who's British and who's American?" with some venom as well. But, otherwise, he was very calm. He -- so we -- everyone put their hands up, and then he asked everyone to put their mobile phones on the ground. And I kept mine in my pocket, but I had switched it off.
But he was distracted by -- there were a couple of women who were very distressed. And he motioned for them to walk down the stairs with his gun and then let them go. And then after that, he then just told everyone to keep on moving up the staircase. So, he sort of stopped his British and American thing for the time being, which was very lucky, because I thought he was just going to shoot anyone who looked remotely British or American.
HOLMES: Now, how did you end up getting away?
CHAMBERLEN: Well, I decided -- after sort of climbing up another few flights, there was a lot of smoke coming down the staircase. And I decided that, if we went to the top and got to the roof, I just thought they were going to shoot loads of people on the roof for some people.
So, on every floor, there's a door to the left to get on to the main floor. And it got to about the 18th -- the 18th floor it was, and sort of gestured to this guy behind me to come, to go through the door.
And the gunman was on the stairwell below me. And I had been looking out to see if I could see him. And I couldn't, so I thought, all right, this is the time to go. And we pushed the door open and then hid behind a table, which was behind the door, and just thought he might -- if he had seen us, he would have pushed the door open and shot us both, I'm sure.
But he didn't. And we waited for about 10 minutes there. And the smoke just got thicker and thicker. And then we had to make a decision whether to stay there for longer or go down and try and get out and get some air. So, we decided to go back down the stairs again. And the staircase was just pitch-black by this stage. The smoke was so thick.
And the guy that I was with tripped on one of the steps. And I thought, oh, my God, this is it. Someone is going to hear this noise and shoot us both. And nothing happened. And we kept sort of winding our way down 18 flights. And every corner we turned, just thinking, there's going to be a gunman there. And thank God that..
HOLMES: And, Alex, tell me, did these gunmen -- I think you, at least from what you -- you were able to see at least two. It sounds like one that came in the kitchen and another one you kind of met on the staircase. But however many you saw...
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMBERLEN: No, I only saw one. But I heard -- I was aware obviously that there was another gunman above, above us on the staircase, because there were shots fired.
(CROSSTALK)
HOLMES: Did they seem organized to you?
CHAMBERLEN: Well, the guy that I saw was -- he was young. He was probably early 20s, clean-cut. But he seemed very in control of himself, and very -- yes, he seemed very organized and knew exactly what he was doing, and very sort of focused, yes, yes.
(CROSSTALK)
HOLMES: And, Alex, I want to ask you as well. I don't know if you're necessarily a weapons expert, but I'm sitting here with a security analyst here on the set. And I'm curious if you happen to know what kind of weapons they had, or, even if you don't know yet, how well-armed did he appear to be?
CHAMBERLEN: Well, he had an AK-47. And I didn't notice if he had any -- I don't think he had any grenades around him. I think a lot of them had grenades, a lot of grenades on them, because there were many blasts. But I just remembered seeing the gun. That was what I focused on. And so I don't know what else he had. But the guy above obviously had grenades, because we heard a few of them going off.
HOLMES: All right, Alex Chamberlen, sir, I appreciate you taking the time to talk to us about your ordeal. And I know it was a harrowing one for you. But thank you. Glad you were able to make it out of there. But, again, thank you so much for sharing -- sharing your story with us and our viewers. Thank you so much, Alex. You take care.
CHAMBERLEN: You're welcome. Bye.
HOLMES: All right.
We will continue to follow this still developing story. As you hear him talk about that harrowing experience he had at the Oberoi, that situation appears to have been taken care of, at least, by commandos there on the ground.
But it appears that the Taj Hotel, still possibly a situation happening there where at least one gunman, we believe, the reports are, is still holed up in that hotel somewhere. And now the work begins to try and find him and bring this entire situation to an end.
Stay here with us. We will get into some possible reasons for these attacks, a lot of speculation out there about why militants would attack Mumbai in such a way, and a lot of talk out there about Kashmir.
You might have heard about Kashmir, this disputed territory between Pakistan and India. Well, we will explain this to you in further detail and how this all kind of possibly ties in to what we have been seeing the past couple of days in Mumbai.
Stay here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: Well, the situation continues in Mumbai, in India, what we have been watching the past couple of days. The attacks there have left some 160 dead, 300-plus injured, in there attacks.
We still believe, reports are, that the Taj Hotel still the situation is not revolved there, because reportedly one man is still -- one terrorist still holed up in that hotel, so operations are going on right now trying to flush that person out and then possibly get this situation at least under control to a point where this city is no longer under siege.
The speculation is out there about who could possibly be behind this, who these people are, who was responsible for this. That speculation started almost immediately. The investigation will certainly begin immediately as well to try to find out.
Mike Brooks here with me, our security analyst, bring you back into this.
We were just talking, sometimes, it's going to be the usual suspects, but still you have got to branch a little farther out than that to think about who might have been behind this.
BROOKS: Absolutely.
And right off the bat, the Indians are going to say Pakistan.
HOLMES: Pakistan.
BROOKS: It came from Pakistan. It had something to do with that.
But they're looking at a lot of different things, T.J. I just -- right before I came on the air, I got off the one with one of my intelligence sources, who say they're even looking into the possibility of an organized crime syndicate in Mumbai, if you will, that assisted with logistics and possible weapons and ammo.
And then they're looking at one person in particular who heads up one of these syndicates, a guy by the name of Dawood Ibrahim. And you and I were just talking about that.
HOLMES: Has a history.
BROOKS: He has a history. He was the mastermind of the 1993 Mumbai bombings that killed 250 people. So, they believe he's exiled in Pakistan, possibly in Karachi. So, that's one of the ways they're -- one of the things they're looking at.
But he also has ties to al Qaeda. So, you know, that one of the things they're looking at. They're looking. But they cannot take anything off the board at this time.
HOLMES: All right. And another thing that is out there, Kashmiri separatist groups, you have heard that. That's been coming up in the past couple of days as well.
And we will hear a lot more about Kashmir. You might know a little bit about it. It's something that's come up even in campaigns here in the U.S. political season sometimes, but this disputed area of Kashmir. Take a quick listen -- a quick history lesson about this disputed area.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HOLMES (voice-over): So long as there's been an India and a Pakistan, there's been trouble over Kashmir. Ownership and control over a rugged region of mountains and valleys the size of Kansas is head and shoulders the main reason India and Pakistan have been at each other's throats for 60-plus years, the last 18 of which have been especially deadly, 43,000 people dead.
Back in the 1940s, India and Pakistan fought their first war over Kashmir. There would be two more, with both countries developing nuclear weapons in the meantime, cease-fires and skirmishes and cross- border attacks and incursions and pullbacks, all as attempts at peace talks between India and Pakistan often failed over the sticky subject of Kashmir.
Now some analysts believe there could be a link between the attacks in Mumbai and the militant group Lashkar-e-Tayyaba. That is the organization the U.S. State Department calls one of the biggest and best trained groups fighting against Indian control of Kashmir.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HOLMES: Want to bring in an expert, terrorism expert, for the Asia-Pacific Foundation, Sajjan Gohel, who certainly knows this area, knows it back and forth, knows it in and out, and has been helping us out the past couple of days here with analysis of it.
Sajjan, tell me. The attacks we are seeing and so many organizations, a lot of speculation right now who could have been responsible, does this look like any group we have seen before?
SAJJAN GOHEL, ASIA-PACIFIC FOUNDATION: This attack, T.J., was what I would call a fedayeen mission.
And what I mean by that was that these individuals were trying to kill as many civilians as possible and security forces whilst in the process of being gunned down by the authorities. So, they were trying to be martyrs, not suicide bombers. And last time we saw something like this was in December 2001, oddly enough in India again, with the attack on the parliament in New Delhi, when a group called the Lashkar-e-Tayyaba, which some people are suggesting could be connected to this plot, actually tried to eliminate members of parliament there.
So, this had eerie similarities to that particular attack. And, of course, this time, we have seen that their primary focus was going after Westerners, and in particular Americans and Britons, and also targeting a Jewish community center. Now, this pretty much fits into the ideology of al Qaeda. It was may not al Qaeda central planning and plotting this, but certainly the group and the cell are motivated by the ideology that bin Laden preaches.
HOLMES: From what we have seen from this group, and again, as you describe this particular attack, could this be some splinter group nobody has heard from before? Or obviously this group has to be tied to somebody who has some backing that could have helped them plan and fund an operation like this.
GOHEL: Think about it this way. These guys knew exactly the internal dynamics of the hotels. They knew where the Jewish cultural center was.
Now, these -- the locations are all separate from each other. They had done their reconnaissance, their planning, their homework. They had built up their operational support. The chances are that this is a cell that doesn't even necessarily need a name. In fact, names are no longer relevant when we look at transnational terrorism. There's probably an indigenous component which helped them with the reconnaissance, but there's also a transnational nexus as well. And we have seen this repeatedly, especially in the U.K., where I am from, where all these attacks that have taken place, including the 7/7 bombings, lead back to a trail to Pakistan.
Now, of course it's early to say whether in this instance in Mumbai there is a connection to Pakistan, but what we do know is al Qaeda's base is in that country right now. And Ayman al-Zawahri, who issued a message last week, reiterated his hatred toward the United States.
So, you have got to factor all these things in.
HOLMES: And tell me here, you mentioned this group, you said don't even need a name sometimes. How much more difficult is it to track down these groups down after the fact, but also to track them before the fact, before they are able to execute an attack like this, if we don't even necessarily know who they are, if they're not necessarily tied to a group we know before, and, like you said, don't even have a name, really?
GOHEL: Well, this is the key question, T.J., because, with terrorists today, they don't wear a uniform. They can't be easily identified. They are able to disperse into the civilian fabric of society.
These terrorists that have carried out the attacks in Mumbai just now were wearing T-shirts and jeans. These individuals are not easily identifiable or could be profiled. And this the uphill treadmill challenge for the authorities is that intelligence is so key. You can disrupt plots, you can make arrests, but if a terrorist group is determined to carry out an attack, it's very difficult to stop that.
Counterterrorism agencies have to be 100 percent successful all the time. Terrorists need to be just lucky once. They just have that opportunity to exploit security when it's lax, minimal, or nonexistent. And, unfortunately, we have seen it with very tragic consequences in Mumbai.
BROOKS: Sajjan, Mike Brooks here.
Do you see any breakdown or any failure within the internal and external intelligence operations of India?
GOHEL: Hi, Mike.
Well, that's a very interesting question. India's internal intelligence agency is called the Intelligence Bureau. And ultimately, they are top in being able to assess the threats that exist inside the country.
And what you've found over this year is that there have been more attacks in more parts of India than ever before.
In those previous incidents in places like Amenabar, Jaipur and Bangalore, there was rudimentary time devices attached to bicycles. The suspects were not there. They weren't planning to be suicide bombers. They simply planted the devices and left.
I think if you look at a country like India, which has got a population of one billion. It's a melting pot of different races and religions and a number of different linguistic groups, it's become very difficult to ascertain how to get a grip on the situation. Because India is becoming a major tourism destination, just like other places like Egypt. But the difference is the Egyptians have been able to crack down very heavily on terrorist groups by making security restrictive.
But that has a negative consequence, because it also puts people off going to those countries.
So it's a kind of very difficult situation for the authorities in India to try and tackle.
BROOKS: That's very interesting.
And, you know, earlier T.J. and I were talking, Sajjan, about the possibilities. You're looking at a lot of different groups.
But do you think -- you know, I'm hearing from some of my sources, that you know, are talking, possibly, the involvement of Dawood Ibrahim, you know, who was involved in the bombings in Mumbai back in 1993 that killed over 250 people.
Do you -- or it was believed that he is still exiled in Pakistan, am I correct?
GOHEL: You make a very important point, Mike. Dawood Ibrahim is an underworld Don. He is an international criminal. You could compare him in the type of Al Capone of India, in many ways. And he is wanted for the attacks on the Mumbai Stock Exchange back in 1993.
And the belief is that he is in Pakistan. In fact, his daughter got married to a very prominent sportsman's son a couple of years ago.
And the fact of the matter is that his infrastructure in Mumbai is still present, because the underworld gangs are very much there. In fact, they could have played the role in providing logistics and reconnaissance to terrorist groups.
So I think that's a very important point that you mentioned.
HOLMES: All right.
Sajjan Gohel, again, a terrorism expert for the Asia-Pacific Foundation.
Sajjan, sir, we appreciate your time and your expertise, as always, during this situation we've been watching the past couple of days.
Thank you. And to our viewers, a lot of you have seen a lot of dramatic pictures over the past couple of days we've been bringing to you. One of them has been of those commandos down on those hotels -- making their way down from those helicopters. We've been seeing some of that dramatic video.
Well, a lot of those commandos have been employed -- deployed during this particular siege. We're going to hear from one of those commandoes talking about the situation, talking about his experience in trying to get the situation under control. That's after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: Well, we have heard from officials on the ground in India, the police forces. We have heard from survivors, as well.
Now we want to hear from one of the commandoes. You've been hearing a lot about these commandoes and you're seeing this video -- dramatic video we got in the past day of them coming down on a couple of the hotels there, trying to get control of the situation -- a couple of those hotels under siege.
Well, now I want you to listen in to one of these commando's firsthand accounts of what it was like trying to get this situation under control.
Listen in. (BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I am not wrong, the Taj has around 400 rooms. And we did not know the layout of that hotel. There was not much of staff. There were some policemen, as well, there, but they also probably did not know the layout fully. And, hence, we had to do -- go there. We had to go -- we had to go on our own, trying to find our way out.
QUESTION: How many of you have you managed (INAUDIBLE)?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We -- well, we are not aware of how many have been killed. The exchange of fire took place in darkness. And we -- and there is blood all over. There are bodies lying all over. You're actually not looking at who is injured or who is killed. You are just looking at somebody who has got some weapons on him.
And let me tell you one thing, that we could -- when we first exchanged fire, we could have got those terrorists but for there was so much of the hotel guests there outside. The bodies are lying strewn here and there. There was all blood all over. And trying to avoid the casualty of the civilians, we had to be that much more careful in our fighting.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are five or six people who were (INAUDIBLE) injured. And around 50-odd bodies who had died.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In fact -- in fact, in that way, let me also tell you this. That in between, we were going searching for the rooms' doors, one a person of the hotel staff who was guiding us, as well. And he knew where the guests were. He would take us and, you know, ask us to, you know, take all the -- help those people come up from the hotel.
And in all, we had about a staff comprising of around 30 people who were rescued from one place. And around 200 of the hotel guests were also rescued. And early in the morning at around 6:30, an employee of Taj who was in one of the rooms was also evacuated.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can't hear both of you together.
(CROSSTALK)
QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Needless to say that, that yes...
(CROSSTALK)
QUESTION: ...about the training tactics...
(CROSSTALK)
QUESTION: ...for the people?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The terrorists had locked up about 200 people in the adjacent room where the firefight also took place. So once we had exchanged a firefight, we were confident that the terrorists either had been killed or had moved out from there.
We actually entered the room, freed the room and got about 200 people out. And it was 6:30 in the a.m.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, this was in the main -- the new building.
(CROSSTALK)
QUESTION: In the new building?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The new building, the second floor.
(CROSSTALK)
QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, they did not have any masks or anything on them. They were putting on normal t-shirts. (CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were not very old. They were about -- less than 30 years of age, 30.
(CROSSTALK)
QUESTION: Were you engaging with specialists with (INAUDIBLE)?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, see the (INAUDIBLE) -- it appears that they were trained. Not everybody can fire the "AK" series of weapons. Not everybody can throw grenades like that. So for using such weapons and explosives, it is obvious that they would have had to have been trained somewhere.
(CROSSTALK)
QUESTION: And so do you have any guesses about what type of (INAUDIBLE) or how many, quantity wise, ammunition and the nature of the (INAUDIBLE)?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The (INAUDIBLE) said that the bag containing the ammunition was handed over to the police. QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No...
QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That is part of explosives. There was a little bit of plastic explosives -- P.E.
QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE)?
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (At the Oberoi) there were the similar kind of people.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE). They had started firing. Again, the same personality. The kind of people with no remorse. Anybody and whosoever came in front of them, they fired. They appeared to be a determined lot wanting to create and spread terror.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: All right. Some really intense stuff there.
And what you were listening to were a couple of commandos who helped free people and also confronted the terrorists at the Taj Hotel, the Oberoi Hotel, as well.
Mike Brooks is sitting here with me.
A couple of quick things before we go to a commercial break. BROOKS: Sure.
HOLMES: First, s lot of people watching that may be wondering, well, why are their faces covered. Just -- just quickly explain. This is the equivalent of a U.S. Army Special Forces unit, these commandoes.
BROOKS: Right.
HOLMES: So why do they...
BROOKS: These are like Army's Delta Team or, you know, Navy SEAL Team 6. They don't want people to know who they are, because if they find out who they are, they could make -- take something out on their family, that kind of thing, and that's why they want to remain anonymous.
HOLMES: All right. And the last thing, before we get to a break, talking about -- these are trained guys who know about weapons.
BROOKS: Absolutely.
HOLMES: And they're talking about these terrorists know how to use an AK-47 and they know how toss a grenade like not just anybody knows how to toss a grenade. So even them watching...
BROOKS: Yes.
HOLMES: ...they think these guys were trained somewhere.
BROOKS: Oh, absolutely. They said they had to have been trained somewhere. Now we're hearing, you know, AK-47s, grenades and he even said they had some plastic explosive, which I find very interesting, too, because they seemed very determined.
But these commandos, once they finally got on the scene, it sounded like they did, you know, one heck of the job. Because it's very, very difficult to clear a hotel, T.J. And when you come into a room and you're going in and you're going in to clear a room, you know, know if it's friend or foe behind that door. And as we talked about before, there's always the possibility you could have terrorist sleepers in these rooms.
HOLMES: Yes.
BROOKS: It could have been like one of the control rooms. You never know. And you always still have to worry about booby traps and other things that these terrorists could have put out there for these commandoes, you know, to keep them from doing their...
HOLMES: And these commandos are out trying to do this and trying to figure out who's friend, who's foe when they bust in this in this situation.
BROOKS: Exactly.
HOLMES: And, again, 400 rooms in this hotel -- they still are trying to clear at the Taj.
BROOKS: Right.
HOLMES: The situation is still going on.
We're continuing to follow this still developing story -- Mumbai under siege.
Stay here.
A quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: We want to stop our non-stop coverage of terrorists and commandos for just a second and talk about two of the victims from these horrible days in Mumbai.
Take a look here at this family. This is the Scherr family from Virginia. The girl you see there in the middle is Naomi, 13 years old.
Naomi and her father Alan, in the picture there, were in Mumbai this week with their meditation group. Naomi's brother sent us this picture. He sent it to CNN I-Report and he sent it when he had not heard whether Naomi was safe or not.
He also sent us this picture of Alan Scherr.
Again, at the time they were sending these pictures, the whereabouts and condition were unknown at the time.
We now know what happened to both of them. Naomi and Alan Scherr died in that violent assault on the Oberoi Hotel. Alan and Naomi are among the 160 known fatalities from the attacks in Mumbai.
Well, another who was injured we know of and in the hospital right now, her mother is on the phone with us right now.
Her name is Celeste Varagona.
She's in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. But, ma'am, your daughter was at the Taj Hotel, I do understand.
If you can, first, tell me how is your daughter doing right now. And then tell me how -- how this happened to her.
CELESTE VARAGONA, DAUGHTER WOUNDED IN MUMBAI: OK. She's doing much better. I talked to her this morning. She's still in a great deal of pain and -- but she's getting better. She lost a lot of blood, of course. You know, one of the bullets was in her femur. So -- but the two people that died that you just showed a minute ago, they were at her table. And the man was right next to her. And his head fell on her lap. And she -- right away, she went under the table and tried to help the daughter. But the daughter was limp and she was dead, also. So her...
HOLMES: Now, did your daughter happen to know them and...
VARAGONA: Oh, yes, very well.
HOLMES: They were part of the group.
VARAGONA: They were...
HOLMES: OK.
VARAGONA: They were part of the group, yes. Yes, very well. So when she went under the table and tried to help the daughter, because she knew the father was dead already, well, she found out that the daughter was dead, also.
So her and this other friend that was shot in the back, they crawled into the kitchen and they hide behind the door. And then they saw some people in the kitchen. They saw that there were more terrorists and they were throwing grenades inside the kitchen.
So some people picked him up and got him out just in time, before -- before the whole kitchen blew up.
And they went out through a back door and put him on a taxi cab and brought him at the hospital.
And, oh, that's just a miracle, just a miracle, because she would have been dead.
HOLMES: Oh my gosh.
VARAGONA: Not only the bullets, but also what happened in the kitchen. So...
HOLMES: Now, how big of a group -- you said -- and, again, I...
VARAGONA: There were 24 four people in her group.
HOLMES: It was 24 of them altogether in the group.
VARAGONA: Yes.
HOLMES: When did they plan on -- how long had they been in town and when did they plan on coming back?
VARAGONA: They had been there a week and they were going to come back December on 1st.
HOLMES: On December 1st.
Did your daughter or any of the other group ever express any concerns about going to Mumbai because of the history:
VARAGONA: No. No, not at all.
HOLMES: (INAUDIBLE). VARAGONA: No. None at all. My daughter especially, she's one of those people that want to help people all the time and she always see the good side of the people. And she kept on saying when I talked to her this morning, says all the Indian people are very nice and very good. It's not their fault what happened. And of course it's not their fault.
HOLMES: What are your plans now, ma'am, for possibly -- I don't know -- certainly the State Department now is recommending right now that Americans travel back over to that area.
But what are your plans for possibly seeing your daughter soon?
When is she going to be back home or is she going to be in the hospital for quite some time?
VARAGONA: Well, we don't know yet. We don't know. Her husband and the husband of the other lady, Linda, left yesterday. And what I understand, they arrive in Mumbai maybe a half an hour or an hour ago. And they are on their way to the hospital right now.
HOLMES: And, Ma'am, I have to ask you this -- how long did it take before you heard from your daughter?
There had to be some agonizing time between you seeing all these reports of the attacks there and...
VARAGONA: Yes. Her husband told me about Wednesday what happened, that she was shot and she was in a hospital. And about 4:50 in the morning on Thursday morning, on Thanksgiving, she called me. And the operation was about four or five hours before then. So it was hard to understand her. But she wanted me to know that the operation was OK. And the American consul was there with her. And, in fact, she used his cell to call me and tell me that the operation was good. And, of course, they didn't know yet, you know...
HOLMES: And, Ma'am, the last thing here before I let you go. I know you know your daughter probably better than anybody who does know her. And you're used to -- to hearing her and the tone of her voice and how she sounds and when she's upbeat, when she's down. You certainly said on the phone she expressed those sentiments that it's not the people of India's fault that this happened...
VARAGONA: OK.
HOLMES: But how does she sound?
Does she sound just terrified...
VARAGONA: She sounded...
HOLMES: ...to you?
Does she -- go ahead.
VARAGONA: She sounded much better this morning. Her voice was much better. She said that she was still in pain a lot, but that she felt better.
HOLMES: All right. Celeste Varagona, again, calling and talking to us from Tennessee. Your daughter is OK. We are so glad you were able to report that news to us.
Thank you for sharing your time and this -- this tough experience with you, as we try to bring these stories to our viewers here.
VARAGONA: You're welcome.
HOLMES: But good luck to you and your daughter and your family. I certainly hope she gets back home soon safe and a full recovery.
Thank you so much, Ma'am.
Again, just one of a number of the survivor stories we are hearing from people as we continue to watch this story -- 160 dead, 320 plus wounded.
And we just heard from that lady there, her daughter one of the lucky ones, even though she has been shot. She's been going through it right now at the hospital, but the people right next to her shot and killed.
We will continue to follow this story out of Mumbai.
Stay here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: All right. We continue to follow the situation in Mumbai. And that coverage will continue at the top of the hour with our Wolf Blitzer, who's standing by for a special live three hour edition of THE SITUATION ROOM -- Wolf, good afternoon to you.
WOLF BLITZER, THE SITUATION ROOM: Thanks very much, T.J.
As you know, major, major developments still unfolding right now in the terror attack in Mumbai. It's still going on right now. At least one gunman is still holed up in a luxury hotel, perhaps more. Gunfire and explosions have been ringing out throughout the day.
The State Department now saying there are still Americans in danger on the ground in Mumbai. At least four Americans are known dead.
Also, there's word the terrorists behind this might, after all, be connected to Al Qaeda. You're going to be hearing a lot more about that.
We're also talking to people who barely escaped. You'll want to hear their descriptions of the mayhem and the terror, including a family that just got away after being trapped in their hotel for more than 40 hours.
Plus, I'll be speaking live with the Pakistani ambassador to the United States, along with some of the most experienced minds in national security and counter-terrorism.
We have every angle of this unfolding story developing, as only CNN can bring you.
THE SITUATION ROOM will begin. That's coming up next at the top of the hour -- T.J.
HOLMES: All right, Wolf.
We'll see you here in just a few minutes.
I do want to bring in Robert Baer now -- he's a former CIA operative -- to talk about what we've been seeing in Mumbai.
Robert, thank you for giving us some time here.
You tell me,, from what you see in this operation, is this an intelligence breakdown and failure somewhere?
ROBERT BAER, FORMER CIA OPERATIVE: No, I don't think so. This is a small group. It's combat experienced. But you'll notice, there have been no claims on Internet. It's been an extremely disciplined group -- the fact that they came in by sea, they picked large hotels which are very, very difficult to take back, they've been undeterred by the gunfire, the flash bang grenades, people fast roping down the walls.
These groups are too dispersed, too spread all over South Asia for intelligence services to get into every one of them.
HOLMES: Well, Robert, how scary is that?
And you're giving it to me straight here and blunt and blatant and true as you can. But that is some scary stuff, to think that someone could plan an operation that some say could have taken months, like this, and to be this effective, if you will, and nothing we can do about it.
BAER: Well, you know, T.J. , they've taken on the Indian Army. And the Indian Army is very good. They've been fighting in Kashmir for years. And they've faced groups like this before.
But these people were hand-picked, determined to die and they know how to hand out casualties.
It's a scary scenario. And I'd say, offhand -- and it's much too early -- that these guys got their training in Afghanistan. They've actually been on a battlefield before. They're combat experienced.
HOLMES: That's an interesting point you bring up there, because it's going to be in my next question.
Where in the world did training like this come from?
And this training, you think, is possibly military training?
BAER: Yes, absolutely. And not only military training, but they are combat experienced. You don't really know who's going to run in the face of fire until they've been under fire. And these guys, I would say, offhand, have been under fire before.
HOLMES: Under fire before.
And I've got Mike Brooks. You're still here with me, sitting here on the set.
You know, listening to that, it's scary to think, you know, there's only so much you can do when you have these determined groups. You don't know where they're coming from. We heard another analyst say earlier some of them don't even have names.
BROOKS: No, exactly. As Robert says, you know, you -- you know what mettle you're made of when you're under fire.
BAER: Yes.
BROOKS: You know, and it's a fight or flight. And these guys weren't going anywhere. And just as, you know, he said, I mean these guys looked like they had some kind of combat experience. And we heard from the commandos that said that they had been trained somewhere.
And, you know, Robert is saying that most likely that it sounded like it could be some military training.
HOLMES: Robert, is there going to be a money trail somewhere that they're going to be looking into, as well?
Because, you know, we hear about these weapons that they do have. But the planning and we also heard they had control rooms and things possibly set up at some of these hotels. They had to have had some money.
Is there going to be a money trail?
BAER: I think they're going to cover this up pretty well. You know, there's a smuggling route that goes from the Makran Coast in Pakistan to Bombay. It's been there for hundreds of years. It's a very easy proposition to put weapons on these boats into a mother ship and then, you know, bring them in on small rafts and dingies or whatever.
It's a very difficult area. Quetta, the main capital in this area of the Makran Coast in Pakistan, is more or less off limits to the Pakistani government. It will take the Pakistani government months to get to the bottom of this, if, indeed, they came from this area.
HOLMES: And months to get to the bottom of this, possibly.
What are other groups possibly -- I'll ask you this Mike.
What are other groups learning from this as they watch this?
Are they learning something?
BROOKS: Well, you know, every -- you always learn something when you have an incident like this, you know. But we don't know who these -- who this group is for sure.
HOLMES: Yes.
BROOKS: You know, just like Robert said, it -- we don't know who they are. But you know, sure -- you learn a little bit. I mean, terrorists know when they're picked and when they're doing their reconnaissance and they're picking their targets, they're picking targets of opportunity. And you know, a hotel -- it's a soft target.
HOLMES: Robert, last thing, and right quick to you. I'm running out of time here. But tell me, you said it might be several months before we know.
Is there any chance, do you think, we might not ever know?
BAER: We may never know. We may never know. I think, you know, and we could be hit again very soon. You know, anything's possible in a war torn area like this.
HOLMES: All right.
Robert Baer, again, former CIA operative.
Sir, we appreciate your time and your expertise on this.
Mike Brooks has been here with me for the hour, a security analyst.
Appreciate you, as always.
BROOKS: Thank you.
HOLMES: We're going to see you again tomorrow morning on "CNN SATURDAY MORNING."
BROOKS: Yes.
HOLMES: He's going to -- he'll be here helping us out as we continue to follow it tomorrow morning.
But right now, I need to hand it over to Wolf Blitzer and a special edition of THE SITUATION ROOM right now.
BLITZER: Thanks very much, T.J.
