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Sixty-Hour Terror Nightmare Over in Mumbai; Americans Killed in India; Commandos Battle Attackers; Timeline of Attacks; Interview With British Actor Joey Jeetun, Mumbai Attack Survivor; Let the Shopping Begin?

Aired November 29, 2008 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR: An FBI team is headed for India to help the investigation into the Mumbai terror attacks. And the siege though finally coming to an end, but now the hunt is on for the terror mastermind.
T.J. HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: We'll also turn our attention this morning a bit to the holiday shopping season. Of course, it got under way on Black Friday, yesterday. Shoppers are certainly going to be at it again today, but we've got some ideas for you on how to buy meaningful gifts. But, of course, right now, everybody is on a tight budget, so that's what they need to hear right now.

NGUYEN: Meaningful gifts on the cheap. I like it.

HOLMES: On the cheap, yes. Not just cheap, but meaningful.

All right. From the CNN Center, welcome now to the CNN NEWSROOM this November 29th.

I'm T.J. Holmes.

NGUYEN: Yes. Good morning, everybody. It's 10:00 a.m. here in Atlanta, 7:00 a.m. out West.

I'm Betty Nguyen.

Let's get you caught up on the latest from India.

HOLMES: That 60-hour terror nightmare is over now. The nation turns it's attention to finding those responsible for the attack that really paralyzed India's largest city.

NGUYEN: Here's what we know so far. The siege on Mumbai began afternoon Wednesday, U.S. Eastern Time, that is, and late Wednesday night in Mumbai. The death toll at this hour, 183. That is down from a previous figure given by Indian authorities.

The number of injured, 295. And among the dead, five Americans, including A Virginia man and his daughter.

More on the victims in just a few minutes.

But in the meantime, Pakistan is denying any involvement in the Mumbai attacks. There were reports that cell phones found on a boat after the attacks had made calls to Pakistan. Well, this morning, the country's foreign minister had this to say...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHAH MAHMOOD QURESHI, PAKISTANI FOREIGN MINISTER: Pakistan is not involved in this ghastly act. And that is why we do not have to be on the defensive and we are not on the defensive. Extending cooperation, and the fact that after the incident that I remained on Indian soil for three days, and I faced the Indian electronic and print media head on, arguing and articulating the case of Pakistan, is a case in point that the government of Pakistan is not defensive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NGUYEN: Well, right now authorities are making sure there are no more explosives or weapons at any of the sites where the terrorists struck.

CNN's Matthew Chance joins us now by phone from Mumbai.

And Matthew, are you getting any new information to what the investigators are finding? I know sweeps are going on right now.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: No new information at the moment. Still, though, police and investigators sweeping through the Taj Intercontinental Hotel, a huge building with more than 400 guest rooms, just to see what clues they can find, and of course to make sure that there aren't any booby traps, explosions, or any kind of -- any other things that may be crucial to the investigation before they open it back up for the renovators to come back in, because the reports are, of course, the interior of that historic hotel have been totally gutted.

There is a great deal of suspicion, though. You were mentioning that earlier with the reaction of the Pakistani foreign minister there. A great suspicion amongst ordinary Indians, amongst ordinary people in Mumbai, that Pakistan was ultimately behind it.

You have heard that has been categorically denied by the Pakistani leadership and by Pakistani officials. Still, no firm indication from the investigation about who exactly -- which group exactly was responsible for this. There has been claims that a group calling itself the Deccan Mujahideen carried out the attacks, but these are not a know group. They may be some kind of cover name for a group that operates under some other banner. But investigators just haven't reached their conclusions as yet -- Betty.

NGUYEN: And as we look at the number of people used, we're hearing somewhere between 12, maybe 24, terrorists. That is a relatively small number when you look at destruction and the sites that they were able to attack. There were, what, nine of them?

CHANCE: Yes, it does seem that these small groups of people that apparently broke off into small groups and carried out nine coordinated attacks around Mumbai were carried out by a relatively small number of people. The exact figure isn't quite known yet. But they were clearly very highly organized, they clearly had been planning these attacks for a long period of time. There were reports that one of the militants actually got a job inside the Taj Mahal hotel a good 10 months ago, before these attacks took place. So they were very logistically oriented, very well organized, indeed. And the Indian security forces have suggested that they may well have received training, professional training overseas.

NGUYEN: And there is also some question if they received any inside help once in country, if there were those either working at the hotel or nearby who assisted in these attacks. Of course, more information will come out as the investigation continues.

CNN's Matthew Chance joining us live by phone today.

Thank you, Matthew.

You know, as we have heard, one of the main focuses of these attacks was the famed Taj Mahal hotel, which has been a long-time popular spot for westerners. That explosion is just one of scores to hit the hotel. Authorities have been searching the hotel room by room.

And Anubha Bhonsle of CNN's sister network in India, CNN-IBN, she shows us some of the damage at the hotel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANUBHA BHONSLE, CNN-IBN: This is the first inside look that we have at the terrible tragedy that went on inside the Taj. You can see these broken glass panes. They're really testimony to the horror of that night. This was the first time we've really been able to come inside to the first corridor lining up to the Taj.

I'm going to go past all these shops that have their shutters down, but I can tell you for sure, the guards are there. We aren't really allowed there. (INAUDIBLE) access to what's happened.

We will try and go inside. All of this is locked down. We do believe that commando operations continued over the last two to three days, and it's been continuing.

But these broken artifacts of this beautiful hotel are really what remains (INAUDIBLE). You can see everything lying low -- counters, shutters. But this is the first time we have come up here to see the main inside.

Here you can see what's really left, broken glass, broken wood, things that have fallen off the roof to down here. This is a terrible state of this glorious site. The operation is still not over.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Again, an earlier report from one of your sister networks over in India. Now, she was right outside the Taj Mahal hotel. The Oberoi is another hotel that's nearby, another luxury place. At least two dozen bodies have been found there so.

Among them, two of the five Americans confirmed killed in all these terrorist attacks. Alan Scherr and his young daughter were in India leading a group on a spiritual journey.

CNN's Jill Dougherty with their story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Alan Scherr's spiritual life was tied to India. He visited many times. And that is where he died, along with his 13-year-old daughter, Naomi, in the terrorist attack on Mumbai's Oberoi Hotel.

Scherr, 58, shown here with his daughter and his wife, Kia, was a former college professor who became vice president of the Synchronicity Foundation, a meditation group in Faber, Virginia based on the teachings of an Indian spiritual teacher.

Twenty-five members of the group were on a meditation pilgrimage to Mumbai. The Foundation says the rest are now safe.

The Foundation's spokeswoman said some of the group went to a cafe at the Oberoi for a snack when the terrorists walked in and opened fire.

BOBBIE GARVEY, SYNCHRONICITY SPOKESWOMAN: The three people that were injured and went to the hospital told us that they saw Alan take a bullet to the head and go down. They also told us that Naomi was also on the ground, although they didn't know whether she was shot or not. They didn't actually see that.

DOUGHERTY: The group's other members spent 45 hours barricaded in their rooms.

GARVEY: The grenades were going off. There was constant, you know, gunfire. They didn't know at any time if that door was going to open and it was going to be someone to save them or it was going to be someone to take them out.

DOUGHERTY: Garvey describes Alan Scherr as "brilliant and passionate." "Naomi," he says, "wanted to see the world."

The Synchronicity Foundation set up a Web site for the Scherrs. It's already filled with tributes from the U.S., Canada and countries around the world.

Alan Scherr once wrote he was "living a simple life." "For me," he said, "real freedom means living life in each moment as it unfolds without concepts or conditions."

Jill Dougherty, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: Also, members of a Chasidic Jewish community are mourning a rabbi and his wife who were killed in the Mumbai attacks. The bodies of Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg and his wife were found inside the Chabad House. That's the Jewish community center you've been hearing about over in Mumbai. The couple's nanny actually managed to get their toddler out of harm's way. There was also another New York rabbi who was also found dead at that scene.

NGUYEN: Well, those who lost their lives trying to save others, they are being honored in Mumbai today. A state funeral for the man who led the city's anti-terrorism squad Hemant Karkare, was gunned down by terrorists outside the Cama Hospital on Wednesday. A colleague remembers him as a daredevil officer.

HOLMES: Also, another Major Sandeep Uni Krishnan was killed in the fighting as well at the Taj Mahal hotel.

Meanwhile, a lot of people facing off against those terrorists. We saw a lot of this video, actually, the past couple of days. And a lot of you will remember the video we are talking about. It's the video of the commandos coming down. They're fast-roping from those helicopters onto the tops of those hotels.

We'll get into more about India's elite commandos coming up in our next hour.

Also, something else -- we're going to hear from the president

NGUYEN: Yes. President Bush going to talk about the attacks in Mumbai just a couple of hours from now. We expect to hear from the president at 12:30 Eastern. And of course, when he does start speaking, we will bring his comments to you.

HOLMES: All right. Stay right here. Again, a lot more to come up, including about those elite commandos and the work they had to do to try to save those who were being held hostage.

There you go, some of that video, the dramatic stuff we've been watching over the past several days of some of those elite commandos.

Stay here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: The very latest now on those terrorist attacks in Mumbai, India.

Authorities searching each of the 565 rooms in that 100-plus-year-old Taj Mahal hotel. They have been carrying out controlled explosions of explosives that were left behind.

The death toll at 183 now. That is a bit down from the previous reports. The number of injuries still at around 300.

Investigators are still trying to nail down the exact number of terrorists. Their attention now squarely focused on finding those responsible for these attacks.

NGUYEN: Well, police say they did find cell phones on abandoned boat floating off the coast of Mumbai, and a log shows calls were placed to Pakistan. Now, once inside the city, the attackers moved through Mumbai with apparent ease. They knew the layout at the Taj hotel better than India's elite commandos.

Let's get more on that now from our Tim Lister.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TIM LISTER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The operation to rescue hostages from the Taj Mahal and Oberoi, and arrest or kill the terrorists, fell to India's military elite, navy commandos. This is believed to be the first time they have spoken to the media that they did not reveal their identities. The commandos painted a grim picture of their challenge at the Taj. They didn't know the hotel but their enemy did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These people, they were very, very familiar with the layout of the hotel -- the entries and exits.

LISTER: The commandos had little guidance from the staff, and they held fire for fear of wounding or killing guests.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When we first exchanged fire, we could have got those terrorists, but for there was so much of the hotel guests there outside. The bodies were lined strewn here and there.

LISTER: According to an army commander, the operation also took longer because so many doors were locked.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a number of rooms which are locked from inside. It is possible that some of the hotel guests have not been sealed in. And for their own security and safety, even though we have identified ourselves, we are not opening the doors.

LISTER: The commandos say they did not hear the terrorists speak, but were struck by their appearance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They did not have any masks or anything on them. They were putting on normal T-shirts. And they were not very old. They were about less than 30 years of age.

LISTER: And they seemed well trained.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not everybody can fire the AK series of weapons. Not everybody can throw grenades like that. So, for using such weapons and explosives, it is obvious that they would have had to have been trained somewhere.

LISTER: Though, they would not speculate where. The commandos' assessment matches that of intelligence analysts, who describe this as a well-financed and meticulously-planned attack.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Foreign money -- they had dollars. They had about seven magazines, filled magazines, fully filled, and spare rounds. Approximately 400 rounds.

LISTER: During their news conference, not far from the Taj Mahal, the commandos several times used the same words to describe the terrorists.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were very well determined, emotionless.

LISTER: And unlike any that India has seen before.

Tim Lister, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NGUYEN: All right. So 11 of the gunmen were killed, but we're told that at least one was captured. The real story as to who is behind this, well, that could lie somewhere in the rubble and the debris.

CNN security analyst Mike Brooks joins me now with some insight into the investigation.

As we have been talking this morning, Mike, they are going through the Taj Mahal hotel during those sweeps. They found explosives. They can be key to telling who is behind this.

MIKE BROOKS, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Absolutely. From the post-blast scenes there at the hotel, as whereas we had early on -- they apparently had a taxicab, a vehicle-borne improvised explosive device go off there. So that's another scene.

And what they can do is they can go back -- and this is going to be an important part of the investigation -- on trying to determine who was involved in this, what kind of training they had. As they go back, they take a look at the kind of explosive. We are hearing it was an RDX explosive. In this part of the country, my experts are telling me that there is an explosive called a PE-3, and we heard one of the commandos yesterday say it was a PE. So this is PE-3, this is the kind of a plastic explosive you find in this part of the country.

Then they'll go and take a look at the detonators, also at the timers. Also any booby traps that are used, because they can go back and take a look at the way these bombs are constructed. And then Indian intelligence, the Brits and the U.S. intelligence, hopefully will compare notes and say, OK, well, we've seen this kind of bomb, this same kind of construction...

NGUYEN: Come through this -- yes.

BROOKS: ... at another incident, yes, and from another group. And they received their training here.

NGUYEN: So it's kind of like a signature, as you called it.

BROOKS: It really is. It's a signature of their trade craft, if you will. And that will enable them to go back and say, OK, well, these people may have been trained at this particular camp or that particular camp. Because as the U.S. and Afghan forces and everybody goes through Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan, they go through these training camps and they get their bulletins and they get their manuals, if you will, and they take a look and they can say, oh, OK, this group was trained here, this group was trained there. So that could give some insight on who was involved in this and where, at least, they received their training.

NGUYEN: Well, here's what has me scratching my head. We have got 11 gunmen killed. We've got one supposedly still on the run.

BROOKS: Yes, right. Exactly.

NGUYEN: You're not looking at a whole lot of people who carried out this massive attack here. So there had to be some kind of help, wouldn't you think?

BROOKS: Absolutely. You know, we're hearing anywhere between 24 and 30 of these terrorists that actually carried out these acts. But that's not very many when you have seven to possibly 10 sites that were involved in this.

Then you go back and you look at the command and control. We are hearing that planning may have taken six months to a year to happen. There may have been control rooms in the hotels.

NGUYEN: Yes. They set up control rooms, they had food. I mean, they had everything planned out.

BROOKS: Right. And we're hearing one or more of the terrorists could have been employees, and most likely were employees, at the Taj hotel. Now, how long? We don't know. But they will know the inner workings of the hotel, how things are done, the comings and goings of the people.

You know, there had been a higher security profile just prior to this attack that had kind of gone down. Did they decide through their command and control that, hey, this is the time to go ahead and pull the trigger and to carry out this attack?

NGUYEN: Right. But, you know, some other things that lead to more questions, that we understand that some of the terrorists had British IDs. Also looking at a cell phone that was found in one of the boats that were used by the terrorists.

BROOKS: Right.

NGUYEN: That had phone calls back to Pakistan. I mean, we're all over the place here.

BROOKS: No, and also, you know, they're going to take a look at the clothing. Look at the clothing. Where was the clothing bought on these terrorists? Where did that come from? That might help to say, OK, these people originated from here, this person came from here, because, you know, just little, tiny things like this can lead investigators to find out, OK, where did they buy their clothes, where did they come from, where did this all originate?

Was there a mother ship off -- you know, it's believed that it was a trawler, because they found a captain dead.

NGUYEN: Dead, absolutely. And some of the crew members missing as well.

BROOKS: Exactly. And so that could have been -- they believe it may have been about 10 nautical miles off Mumbai where this attack was launched.

NGUYEN: There are a lot of questions to be answered at this hour.

All right. And you know, they are finding some of it as they go through these hotels.

BROOKS: It's going to be a long, painstaking process. It's going to take a long time, absolutely.

NGUYEN: Right. It will take some time.

Mike Brooks, thank you so much for that.

BROOKS: Thank you, Betty.

HOLMES: Well, hundreds of tourists were trapped inside those two luxury hotels we've been hearing an awful lot about, the Taj Mahal hotel, the Oberoi. Now they are starting to come out and share their experiences with the world.

We'll have more on their survival stories.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: Well, India's long terrorist nightmare has finally ended some 60 hours after two dozen terrorists slipped into Mumbai. And it's now over.

HOLMES: Yes, it's over now, but now the world and really all the attention has turned to finding out who exactly is responsible for these attacks that certainly paralyzed Mumbai for several days. Here's what we do know.

The siege began around noon Wednesday, U.S. Eastern time. That was late Wednesday night in Mumbai. The death toll now at 183. That's down a bit from a previous figures that was given by the Indian authorities. The number of injured still around 300, and among the dead, five Americans.

NGUYEN: Well, the terrorists, they moved in fast. And their deadly attacks played out live as the world watched in horror.

CNN's David Mattingly takes us through the timeline.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Bursts of gunfire, grenade attacks and death.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was dark and there was blood all over the steps. MATTINGLY: Within moments, Mumbai, a city of 18 million, is under siege. The timeline of terror begins Wednesday evening between 8:00 and 9:00 p.m.

The killers enter from the harbor, arriving in dinghies. "Newsweek" magazine reports the militants encounter fisherman, telling them to mind their own business before splitting up into small groups and fanning out across Mumbai.

Their targets, luxury hotels, a hospital, cafes, the Chabad House Jewish center, and a train station. Around 9:30 p.m., the highly coordinated suicide attack is under way.

CAROL MACKOFF, TERROR ATTACK SURVIVOR: We heard shots. We saw men running down our hallway, and we could see though the peephole in the door. We could see guns in their hands. They actually rang our doorbell two times.

MATTINGLY: Within the next few hours, the horror sets in.

ANTHONY ROSE, WITNESSED FIRST ATTACK: They were using hand grenades to turn doors and then they seemed to retreat from that and started seeing other areas of the hotel. We could hear people, it seemed like, being dragged up to the roof of the hotel.

MATTINGLY: During that first night, the gunmen kill dozens, injure hundreds and take scores of hostages.

Early Thursday morning, the fight intensifies, explosions rock the Taj Mahal hotel. And a huge plume of smoke rises into the night.

By daybreak, the terror remains. Gunmen continue to hold hostages. Some are freed by soldiers and police officers.

Everybody grabbed hands. And there was a woman's heel. And they were just standing there. And you knew people had died before as we're walking out.

MATTINGLY: Friday, the assault on the Trident Oberoi hotel lends with at least two extremists dead and more than 100 guests freed. But there are casualties. Among the killed, two Americans, Alan Scherr and his 13-year-old daughter, Naomi.

At the Chabad House, where government forces had surrounded the building, the standoff ends. When officers enter the center they find two gunmen dead. They also recover the boyds of five hostages.

David Mattingly, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NGUYEN: Well, we do want to tell you some more about the Americans killed in the Mumbai attacks. Two of the victims, as David just mentioned in his report, were a dad and his daughter.

You see -- well, the daughter's not in that picture right there, but -- there she is. Alan Scherr and his daughter, 13-year-old Naomi, were part of a group on a meditation pilgrimage to the city. Their group, the Synchronicity Foundation, has set up a Web site, and people from all over the world are posting messages to honor the Scherrs.

And the members of a Chasidic Jewish community are mourning a rabbi and his wife who were killed in the Mumbai attacks. The bodies of Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg of New York and his wife Rivka were found inside the Chabad House, which is a Jewish community center. The couple's nanny -- listen to this -- actually managed to get their toddler out of danger.

HOLMES: All right. And another survivor of the events in Mumbai is Joey Jeetun. He was at a cafe, Cafe Leopold you've been hearing some about, when the terrorists stormed in, and they were specifically looking for westerners.

Now, Jeetun, as a twist of fate here -- it's a crazy one as well -- is a British actor, and actually portrayed a terrorist in a movie.

Well, Sir, good morning to you. Good to see you there doing well.

Tell me what happened at this restaurant. And when did you realize what was happening?

JOEY JEETUN, ACTOR: I got there about 9:00 in the evening and I was just having a drink. I heard, like, what sounded like a light bulb blowing up. And then I realized that it must have been something a bit more, because a local Indian guy just grabbed me and pushed me to the floor, and he said to me, "Keep still and be quiet."

At that point, I just covered myself, my face with my hands, and just curled up into a ball and literally just froze. I could hear what sounded like Chinese firecrackers going off. I wasn't sure if it was explosives or if it was bullets, but I just kept my hand down.

HOLMES: Now you were more, or so it sounds like -- like you said, you got your head down and doing what that stranger told you to do. So you were hearing more of it than you were seeing it.

JEETUN: That's correct, yes. I mean, I could hear screams and debris flying about, glass smashing. And when I opened my eyes at certain points, I didn't look up. I just kept my eyes focused to the floor. But I could see sort of blood just all over the floor.

HOLMES: And Joey, there were reports of other places where these terrorists went in and were looking for westerners, asking for those with American or British passports. Did you hear that question come out?

JEETUN: No, I never heard the guy speak at all. But the cafe where we were at is notoriously known for westerners. It's practically a tourist cafe.

HOLMES: Could you tell how many terrorists were in there? And also, give me and idea of how crowded the place was? How many patrons were there? JEETUN: I don't have an exact number, but the place was packed. I mean, literally. All the tables are quite close together.

When we went there, about 9:00, there was only one table left at the back. And that was the only table that we could get. It literally was just (INAUDIBLE) with just loads and loads of tourists.

HOLMES: And how long did this go on before you felt comfortable opening your eyes, bringing your head up, and getting up and knowing that there was an all-clear?

JEETUN: About three minutes the shooting stopped, but I stayed still because I wasn't sure if it was still happening. And then someone shouted out, "He's still here! He's still here!"

I just stayed still, but some people got up because they thought that the person had gone, because there was no more noise. And then suddenly, a minute later, the shooting started again, and it was just going constantly. Again, for another two minutes.

And I think those people that got up were shot again. I think they were waiting to see whether the people were actually injured or hurt. And if they were and not dead, they were going to kill them.

HOLMES: Joey Jeetun, again, one of the lucky ones. Again, describing that horrible scene there, many horrible scenes around that town.

Joey, glad you are all right. Glad you were able to survive this thing. You take care. Thank you for sharing your story with us this morning.

NGUYEN: Well, at this hour, we still don't know who is responsible for the attacks in Mumbai, but the answer could have a big influence in relations between India and Pakistan, a relationship that's already on the razor's edge.

Reeva Bhalla is considered an expert on terrorism trends. And she's the director of analysis at Stratfor, which is an online publisher of geopolitical intelligence. She joins us today from Austin, Texas.

And let me ask you this, as we look at the details, at least what we know so far of these attacks, are there any signs that point to a particular group?

REVA BHALLA, SOUTHEAST ASIA ANALYST: Yes. Well, we are seeing several indications of a very complex operation involving several different players. One is the more indigenous homegrown element of Islamist militant activists in India who have been operating in the country for a while.

These groups have been operating under the name Indian Mujahideen, primarily, and are tied to many groups within Pakistan as well, as well as rogue elements of the Pakistani ISI. So you do have a strong external link that traces back to Pakistan which has huge significance for India and Pakistani relations moving forward. NGUYEN: During the killings, during the standoff, and during all of these attacks, we never really heard of any demands being asked for or anything like that. It just seemed like this was something they were hell bent on doing.

What does that say to you?

BHALLA: Well, there are several interests in mind here. One is attached to the Kashmir cause, which is, you know, the militant groups operating India were trying to reactivate this cause, force the Indian and Pakistani governments to react. At the same time, you had the more Pakistani elements, al Qaeda in Pakistan, promoting more of a transnational jihadist agenda, trying to create a crisis along the Indo-Pakistani border and use Pakistan as more of a launch pad for a militant jihad.

NGUYEN: But usually groups, when something like this is carried out, they will step up and they'll say, yes, it was me, I'm going to take responsibility for this. But we're not seeing this. We heard one group a little bit earlier, days ago, but it was not really a well- known group that didn't have a whole lot of background to it.

So what kind of signs are you seeing along those lines?

BHALLA: Yes, it's still very murky as to who exactly was behind these attacks. Again, we're seeing indications of Pakistani involvement, a homegrown element attached to this attack, as well...

NGUYEN: Yes, but doesn't it surprise you that no one is stepping forward, especially when we are seeing so much horror and so much death and destruction?

BHALLA: In many ways, yes. And I think we have to wait a couple of days to see exactly how this plays out, because really, now that the terrorist operations have wrapped up, we need to look forward at the responses of the governments involved, of India, Pakistan and the United States, primarily, because that's a primary objective of these groups, is to create a crisis between India and Pakistan and to further destabilize Pakistan. So the internal politics of India, the United States and Pakistan, is locking each country into place right now, and the way things are shaping up, it almost seems like a crisis is inevitable on the Indo-Pakistani border.

NGUYEN: Reva Bhalla joining us live today.

Thank you for that insight. We do appreciate it.

BHALLA: Thank you.

HOLMES: All right. We will turn to the holidays. Still a lot to talk about, about, you know, the economy, people having to shop, trying to find all these gifts. It was Black Friday yesterday. Well, everybody is thinking about that gift shopping and how to maybe save some money.

Robin Spizman, this is a woman that I've spent some time with. She actually took me shopping once, Betty.

NGUYEN: That's right. Last year, around this time.

HOLMES: She took me shopping. She's been called everything from the Gift Guru to the Super Shopper. She is in house. She is right over there. We'll be talking to her right after the break.

NGUYEN: Good stuff.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: Well, thousands of shoppers stormed retail stores to cash in on Black Friday, but we don't know if that translated into big bucks just yet. The holiday shopping season officially kicked off yesterday, and there were huge crowds. But many people said they were buying fewer and cheaper gifts.

Retailers were already fearing the worst. This shopping season, as you know, is probably expected to be one of the weakest in a while.

HOLMES: And you know, this is just a shame. Those big crowds Betty just mentioning, well one of those big crowds showed up at a Wal-Mart in Long Island. And someone ended up dead. Police say a temporary employee was trampled to death by a frenzied crowd of shoppers, some 2,000 estimated who had gathered there, consumed, of course, with cashing in on those Black Friday savings.

Also a witness describing that scene there. Again, apologize for that audio issue, but again, the scene there. At least four others were treated for minor injuries.

Also among them, a woman who was eight months pregnant. She is OK, her baby is OK as well. That stampede began just as the doors were opened at 5:00 a.m.

NGUYEN: It is just unbelievable, the violence that we've been talking about. And get this -- there's more. This time at a Toys "R" Us in Palm desert, California. Police say two men shot and killed each other after the women they were with got into a fight. Frightened shoppers took off in all directions when those shots rang out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SGT. DENNIS GUTIERREZ, RIVERSIDE COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPT.: At 11:31, the Palm Desert Police Department received a call of shots fired here at the Toys "R" Us. The police department arrived within one minute. As you can well see, there were patrons running out of the store. The officers did make entry into the Toys "R" Us.

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NGUYEN: Police say the shooting was not related to the shopping frenzy, and Toys "R" Us issued a statement saying it appears to be the result of a personal dispute.

HOLMES: All right. Well, for most people who were out on Black Friday, it was pretty peaceful. The worst they had to deal with, maybe some long lines here or there. The rest still trying to figure out what to buy or not to buy right about now.

NGUYEN: Yes. We were just talking. There's no big items this...

HOLMES: What's the hot thing this year?

NGUYEN: ... yes, this year. I can't even think of what it would be.

HOLMES: It was what, the Wii last year?

NGUYEN: Yes.

HOLMES: The year before? There's always some hot toy, always some electronics.

NGUYEN: There was that Talking Elmo one year.

HOLMES: None of that this year.

NGUYEN: Nothing.

NGUYEN: Well, Josh Levs has a guest with some answers for those of you still trying to figure out what to buy this time around.

JOSH LEVS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, because we've got a different spend this year, because we're dealing with what most economists say is a recession.

So I'm joined by T.J.'s friend here, all of our friend, Robin Spizman, author of "Giftionary" and also author of this -- check it out -- "Do Your Giving While You are Living." We're going to be talking about that in just a minute.

Now, you know the show well. You know I like to do some graphics.

And guys, let's go to this first graphic, this first full screen.

And I'm going to ask you about this, Robyn. Talk to me -- when there is this kind of situation here, this really difficult economy, tips for practical giving, for someone who doesn't have a lot of money, who's struggling right now. What do you give them?

ROBYN SPIZMAN, AUTHOR, "GIFTIONARY": Well, Josh, the hot thing is the useful thing, something someone can really put to use that won't collect dust. And they will value that, because it's not something that will sit idle -- like a gas card.

But the key is to wrap it in style. Add your personal touch and make it memorable.

How would we do that? Words are free and fabulous. You can be creative. Like, giving that gas card, tell someone, "Happy holidays and full speed ahead." I mean, just really think about adding your personal touch.

LEVS: Yes.

SPIZMAN: That's what becomes really memorable -- the grocery cards, things that provide comfort, useful gifts. That's the key.

LEVS: It's tricky though, because, like, you want to give someone a gift card or something that's very practical, but then you think, OK, they go buy some gas with it, they forget I ever gave them a present. So that's why what you're talking about, this creativity, is important. What you say -- you say there are certain things you can say in a card or say when you give it to them so they'll remember the symbolism, right?

SPIZMAN: Absolutely. Grandparents can put a piece of wisdom for a grandchild. So it's not just a check, it's all those pieces of wisdom.

LEVS: Right.

SPIZMAN: And maybe a memory box to put all of the pieces of wisdom in.

LEVS: That's wonderful.

SPIZMAN: So there's just a way to collect all that. And that's really what we are encouraging this holiday.

We can recession-proof our gift-giving, but we shouldn't apologize for cutting back. We should look at this as a way to define ourselves in new ways that makes giving even more meaningful.

LEVS: Defining yourself through what you are giving.

SPIZMAN: Yes.

LEVS: Let's go to these meaningful gifts. We have another graphic that I got from you about meaningful gifts, because if you're the person who doesn't have a lot of money, you suggested people set rules. Give me some examples of setting rules. What would be a good idea for people to set this year, in this economy?

SPIZMAN: Well, and the rule for a family, perhaps some of the members of your family can't afford the way you used to give gifts to everyone. So everyone could select a name, then perhaps put a budget, like $25 per gift, or whatever your family can afford. Or have a book swap, do something totally different that might recycle an item and also add meaning. But the difference is to set new values and new rules for gift-giving.

LEVS: And everyone has to follow. If there's no -- it's not like one person is going to break it. If it's there, it's there, right?

SPIZMAN: If it's there, it's there.

LEVS: A surprise to everybody.

SPIZMAN: If mama says it's there, it's there. And the other thing is, it could be homemade or heartfelt. So maybe you give a new value to the gift. It's not just something you plug in.

LEVS: All right. Well, you also talked a lot about this year -- in this book, you talk about giving this year. Let's go to this last graphic while we can.

This is about if you are going to give to charity. You say, give time, talents and treasures. Tell us just one thing that we're going to -- what's that about?

SPIZMAN: Very important. Do your giving while you are living. I co- authored with Edie Frazier (ph) a book about inspiration lessons from the thought leaders across the country about giving.

And you know, sometimes we think we have to give a lot of money. But the truth is, we renamed Black Friday so it would be "Give Back Friday." We launched it yesterday. It's going to be a whole year of ways you can give. Go to doyourgiving.com.

LEVS: There we are.

SPIZMAN: And then we'll show you that giving a dollar or a little thing, something like your time, your talent, or perhaps you have something you can donate to a good cause.

LEVS: So thank you so much. This is so helpful. This is just what we needed to hear from you this year.

Robyn Spizman...

SPIZMAN: Thank you, Josh.

LEVS: ... everybody. Here's the book, "Do Your Giving While You're Living."

And I know you'll be back.

SPIZMAN: I'll look forward to it.

LEVS: Back to you guys.

NGUYEN: Listen to this. In fact, some people won't be. The music is not going to be playing.

HOLMES: No. Respect, actually, for the victims of the Mumbai attacks is causing a major concert to be canceled.

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HOLMES: Well, the terror attacks in Mumbai causing the cancellation of India's planned Live Earth Concert. Jon Bon Jovi and will.i.am among the acts there that were supposed to perform on December 7th to highlight the need for solutions to global warming.

However, that's not going to happen now. But the message now not being lost on the bloody scenes in India. Al Gore and the rest of the hosts are issuing a statement saying their thoughts are certainly with the people of India.

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NGUYEN: No cuts in oil production, at least for now. That word coming just moments ago from an OPEC meeting in Cairo.

Oil closed yesterday under $55 a barrel. And oil ministers have been talking about falling oil prices. Earlier, the Saudi representative said the group will "do what needs to be done" to stabilize prices. But now the group will wait until it's mid-December meeting to make any decisions.

HOLMES: Bigger and bigger bucks every time you fly. All those extra fees and airline charges getting a little nuts out there, but there are ways to fly for less.

Melissa Long is "On the Go."

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MELISSA LONG, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Despite the ease at the pump, airlines say fuel and other surcharges are still necessary. But there are ways for you to fly by some of those fees.

SARAH KANTROWITZ, "TRAVEL LEISURE": A seat fee is an additional cost that some airlines are charging if a traveler would like a seat closer to the front of the airplane or a seat with additional leg room. One thing to keep in mind is that if you arrive at the airport and some of these premier seats are available, sometimes the airlines will offer them to you at no additional charge.

LONG: Also, try choosing an airline where the first checked bag is free. And as always, you can save by booking your flight online. But make sure your plans are set before you click that purchase button.

KANTROWITZ: Flight change fees can be upwards of $25. One thing that you can do to avoid that is to pay the higher premium when you book your ticket, which will often give you more flexibility.

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