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Blagojevich Scandal Intensifies; Oprah Speaks Out on Weight Gain
Aired December 10, 2008 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Here is what is making news right now: Blagojevich still governor. Now insiders are telling all.
RICK PEARSON, POLITICAL REPORTER, "THE CHICAGO TRIBUNE": He is a very difficult person to try to figure out.
SANCHEZ: Who are the mystery candidates mentioned by the feds? Why did Valerie Jarrett decide she didn't want Obama's Senate seat? Did Jesse Jackson Jr. meet with the governor?
PATRICK FITZGERALD, STATE'S ATTORNEY FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS: Governor Blagojevich tried to sell the appointment to the Senate seat vacated by president-elect Obama.
SANCHEZ: Accusations of shakedowns, bribes and a first lady with a mouth like a sailor. We are all over it.
O.J. Simpson starts a new life here. We have got pictures and talk to insiders on how he will adjust.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe my wife and two babies and mother- in-law are in heaven with God.
SANCHEZ: What a story. A fighter jet crashes into this man's house, killing four of his family members.
TV news crew at the wrong place at the right time.
And, Oprah, say it ain't so. The queen of talk supersized again. She says, she can't help it.
Tell us what you think of this on the air and on the Net, Twitter, Facebook, and more. Your national conversation starts right now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: And hello again, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez. We welcome you to the world headquarters of CNN here in Atlanta.
We were first to tell you yesterday that there now may be a link or an association to the investigation of Governor Blagojevich in Illinois and Jesse Jackson Jr., Congressman Jesse Jackson Jr. Here is what we can report right now as we show you some of the pictures that are coming in of Congressman Jesse Jackson Jr. arriving to work in Washington today. We learned within the last couple of hours that he has hired a public relations firm. That public relations firm is scheduled to make a statement or issue a statement within this hour, possibly within moments.
And as they do, we will turn that around and share it with you.
Drew Griffin, our investigative reporter, is there, by the way, at those offices, will be joining us briefly. There is still even more information. We are also now learning that Congressman Jackson will be briefing reporters, holding a news conference some time shortly after 4:00 Eastern time. And, obviously, we are going to bring you the details of that as well.
A lot to go through. We had prepared for this eventuality, so we have some of the particular statements that were made possibly about Congressman Jesse Jackson by Rod Blagojevich in the charging document that was issued by the FBI.
Before we get to anything else, let me tell you who is going to be taking us through it. Elaine Quijano is our correspondent in Washington bringing us the very latest on the reaction coming in from obviously Barack Obama. She is in Chicago, by the way. Clarence Page is a "Chicago Tribune" columnist, and Harold Copus is a former FBI special agent, and he is going to be taking us through the actual intricate process of how this goes down, how even bugs are placed in politicians' offices and/or homes without them knowing that it is even going on.
So, before we do anything else, though, let's do this.
I want you to listen now, just to set the scene. This is once again Patrick Fitzgerald. He is the prosecutor in this case, essentially telling reporters what this is all about, and then we will take it from there and bring in some of the other -- quote, unquote -- "candidates" who wanted the seat vacated by Barack Obama.
Go ahead and take that, Rog.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FITZGERALD: Governor Blagojevich tried to sell the appointment to the Senate seat vacated by president-elect Obama. The conduct would make Lincoln roll over in his grave.
The governor's own words describing the Senate seat -- quote -- "It's a 'bleeping' valuable thing -- thing. You just don't give it away for nothing" -- close quote.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Who are these people that we are talking about?
Well, we have made a graphic so you could see who the potential candidates may have been. And there you will see some of them now on your screen, Jesse Jackson Jr., prominently in the middle. There you see Mr. Jones, Ms. Tammy Duckworth, Jan Schakowsky, who we had on this show yesterday, the attorney general, Madigan.
There are even more people on this list. Those are some that we have been able to gather thus far. Now, if you go through the charging document, some of these candidates or some of the people who may feel these vacancies are referred to as candidate one or candidate three or candidate five, not giving away what their names are.
But, obviously, reporters have been seizing on this story throughout the course of the day.
Clarence Page with "The Chicago Tribune," let me bring you into this. I want you to hear this. I'm going to read it to you. This is from the charging document.
It says: "Rod Blagojevich described an earlier approached by an associate of Senate candidate five as follows. We were approached, pay to play, that, you know, he would raise me 500 grand. An emissary came. Then the other guy would raise $1 million if I made him, Senate candidate number five, a senator."
CLARENCE PAGE, COLUMNIST, "THE CHICAGO TRIBUNE": Right.
SANCHEZ: Do you have any idea who he is talking about, referring to when he says Senate candidate five?
PAGE: Well, there have been reports that Senate candidate five is Jesse Jackson -- Jesse Jackson Jr. -- I will stipulate that -- or Triple-J as many of us call him back in Chicago, and that he has denied any wrongdoing...
SANCHEZ: Correct.
PAGE: ... and doesn't want to comment beyond that at present. He gives the usual disclaimers about how there is an ongoing investigation.
SANCHEZ: He says -- just to interrupt you, I think we have his statement. He said he wanted everyone to know every indication -- do we have that? I don't know if can we put that up. But essentially he is saying that he deplores the activity and had no indication of what was actually going on.
Go ahead, Clarence.
PAGE: Right.
And if he was engaged through an intermediary or whatever in some kind of quid pro quo, there is a possibility of illegality. It is the kind of an arrangement that usually is done more subtly and less formally. In other words, if you will help me here, I will remember you in the future, vague language like that, say.
But Governor Blagojevich, one thing that makes this scandal stand out is how just amateurish he sounds, if you will, in the most cynical Chicago terms, how amateurish he sounds, because when he apparently knows he is being bugged, still blabs on anyway.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: And actually taunted them the day before when he was at Republic Doors and Windows.
PAGE: That's right.
SANCHEZ: By the way, we should report that there are indications that the senator -- pardon me -- Congressman Jesse Jackson Jr., met on Monday, just one day, perhaps even hours before Governor Blagojevich was actually taken down, arrested by the feds.
And that is according to your newspaper, "The Chicago Tribune." I will take you and the viewers through more of this information in just a bit.
Let's do this real quick. Let's go to Drew Griffin. He is outside the place where this statement is going to be issued by -- this is the lawyer's office along with the P.R. firm for Jesse Jackson Jr.
What can you share with us, Drew?
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Well, apparently, after Jesse Jackson Jr. made the statement to ABC News this morning regarding whether he was or was not this Senate candidate five, he has hired attorney James Montgomery to clarify the situation.
That news conference here in Chicago expected to take place in just a few minutes. And then later this afternoon, we have just learned that the congressman himself will hold a conference on Capitol Hill also to clarify the situation.
Again, what he is saying is he is not sure at this moment if he is Senate candidate five, but he wants to make it clear that while he did talk to Governor Blagojevich on Monday, he told ABC News that prior to that, he had not spoken with the governor in four years and insists that no one, neither he nor anyone in his office, did anything wrong, although he has notified that he needs to cooperate with the U.S. attorney office in its continuing investigation.
SANCHEZ: Well, I know this thing can get a little confusing, but let me try and bring the viewers back into this, Drew, if we possibly can.
I'm going to read you two things now, see if we can follow along here altogether. The first thing I'm going to read to you a part of the charging document that mentions candidate number five, what Drew just alleged or mentioned that Jesse Jackson Jr. will perhaps address whether he is or isn't candidate number five.
You ready? This is from the charging document.
"On December 4, Rod Blagojevich noted that he was going to meet with Senate candidate number five in the next few days."
Now this is from "The Chicago Tribune," Clarence's newspaper. "On December 6, he had met with him, Jackson," they write. "The South Side and south suburban office said Blagojevich's office is looking to set up a meeting between him and the governor, who has the sole power of filling the vacancy. Every indication is, I believe, in the next four or five days, this meeting will take place."
It is starting to look, Clarence, like, in fact, he may have very well been the last candidate to meet with the governor. The question is, was he going there knowing that the governor was being bugged or as my next guest might allude to, may he have been of the people wearing the bug?
PAGE: Well, we don't know. Frankly, the transcripts don't indicate that he met with him wearing a bug. They do indicate, of course, that Blagojevich was being bugged.
And it is no secret that Blagojevich has been under investigation for a long time. And I think was that same day, the 6th, that my newspaper, "The Tribune," had a story that indicated one of Blagojevich's associates was being wiretapped.
So, Blagojevich you would think would figure, well, maybe I am being wiretapped, too. So, just insofar as other knew other people were being watched, one would think that you would assume that that would be the case.
But we don't is if Jesse Jackson Jr. really did make some kind of bargain in exchange for being appointed senator to Barack Obama's seat, a thing of value, as they say in the legal world.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Well, the governor was offering deals. He would say, it almost sounded, according to the allegations, that there was a lot of quid pro quo-ing here by the governor. I will give you this if you give me this, right?
PAGE: That's right. That's right.
And that is what the governor is charged with, we must remember. Meanwhile, I believe that Fitzgerald has said that Jesse Jackson Jr. is not a target or junior has said that he is not a target of the investigation.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: And that is a very fair point to make.
In fact, this gets even more curious as a matter of fact, because we have Harold Copus, who is a former FBI agent, who is experienced with this type of corruption investigation, has placed plenty of wires himself and put many a'bugs in many a'politician's or famous person's homes and/or offices. You have gone through this charging document, and you have actually found places that lead you to believe that one of these potential candidates or one of the persons that the governor was dealing with was actually wearing a bug.
What's the language in this that tells you that?
HAROLD COPUS, FORMER FBI AGENT: The first -- in paragraph two, it says the agent says my review of consensually recorded conversations.
SANCHEZ: And consensually recorded is the key word?
COPUS: Yes.
SANCHEZ: Let me hold you. My producer is saying we have got to take a quick break. We're coming back with your explanation of that.
Stay with us as we go through this situation, this breaking news story involving Jesse Jackson Jr. and his clarification or explanation to many of the reporters' questions throughout the course of the last several hours. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: We welcome you here on the air, on Twitter, MyFace, Facebook, and we will continue -- MySpace, I should say -- we will continue to share some of that dialogue with you as we go through this show.
We are going to be talking about the possibility that Jesse Jackson Jr. may have some involvement in the investigation of Governor Blagojevich, not the criminal activity, just to be clear.
Before we do that, let's go out to Elaine Quijano. There is more movement on this story there. You see the reverend -- pardon me -- not the Reverend Jesse Jackson -- the son of the Reverend Jesse Jackson, Congressman Jesse Jackson Jr., arriving at work today.
We're now learning that perhaps during this show, you will be seeing more, a statement from his lawyer's office and public relations firm, and then he is going to be talking to the media as well.
Elaine Quijano here now to bring us information about Barack Obama and his staff commenting once again on the Blagojevich arrest.
Take it away, Elaine.
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that is right, Rick.
And keeping in mind these developments as they are going on, Governor Blagojevich has reported back to work today. OK? One day after he was arrested, he has been back at his desk, certainly extraordinary, but as long as he remains in office, he retains the power to appoint a U.S. senator to fill that vacant seat, the seat vacated by Barack Obama.
Of course, that has a lot of politicians in this state wringing their hands. There has been talk of a special election to try and take away that power from the governor. Now, here is what president- elect Barack Obama against that backdrop is saying.
He is joining the calls by other politicians in this state, calling for Rod Blagojevich to step down. Really, this is a question of effectiveness as well. We should tell you that Senator Dick Durbin, U.S. Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois, has also sent Governor Blagojevich a letter asking the governor to -- quote -- "search your heart and summon the strength to put your state and your nation above any personal considerations."
But the president-elect, I talked to a senior transition aide, actually reached this decision or came to this conclusion yesterday that it would just not be in the best interest, there was no way that Governor Blagojevich in the president-elect's view could be effective in serving the people of the state of Illinois -- Rick.
SANCHEZ: And so he wants him to step down in no uncertain terms.
QUIJANO: Absolutely. No uncertain terms.
SANCHEZ: All right. We are going to be getting back to that part of the story.
We thank you so much, Elaine Quijano, for catching us up on that.
As the story develops, I want to bring in now Harold Copus.
You are former FBI. You have placed bugs yourself. You know how this works. You have gone through this document here for the benefit of the viewers that you are looking at right here is the charging document that was released yesterday by the feds, by the prosecutors. And there is information there that leads your experienced eyes to believe that someone was cooperating with police that had a bug on them, and may have been recording this governor and it may have been one of the senatorial candidates.
COPUS: You never know, because we don't know yet...
SANCHEZ: Exactly who it was. It could have been a contractor.
COPUS: Anybody, because they go through and you see this thing is replete with contractor A, lobbyist one, whatever. So, we don't know.
All we can know is that the agent when he got this Title III approved said, I got my information from consensually recorded conversations, meaning someone was wearing a body bug.
SANCHEZ: And the idea is that the governor at least as it is alleged was going to people and saying, if you want this, you have to give me that. In the case of Barack Obama's vacated seat, it was that Senate seat. Now they are naming a list of as many as five different people that could have come forward.
So, what we have here, Clarence Page, is the possibility, for example, since Jesse Jackson Jr. is the one in the news today, that he could have either been presented an offer by the governor, not presented an offer by the governor, or he could have very well been knowing the governor was going to present something, and the feds, the prosecutor, Fitzgerald, could have told him prior to the meeting, we need your help.
After all, this bust took place less than 24 hours after that meeting.
PAGE: That is right.
Well, a number of possibilities here, and it is also possible that some other associates of Obama or his campaign or other Democrats might have been involved in this. Somebody did blow the whistle on the governor, and the mind wanders in thinking about the possibility.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: You know, I am wondering about something else, because Valerie Jarrett's name comes into this, and it is curious that we at CNN had received information just four days after the election that Valerie Jarrett, there she is, was by all indications, as were many people in the Obama camp, very interested in having her replace Barack Obama.
And then somewhat mysteriously the very next day after we here at CNN and our political unit had received that information, suddenly, we learned that, no, they weren't interested in having her work there. They were more interested in having her work at the White House. Seem curious to you?
PAGE: Well, it seems curious now in light of what we know about Blagojevich, certainly that Blagojevich in the eavesdropped conversations refers to someone who sounds like Valerie Jarrett. He refers to someone who is an Obama favorite for that Senate seat, and approaching -- sends an emissary to approach the Obama campaign.
And as Blagojevich put it, all they did was offer good wishes. That's not a direct quote. But, essentially, he says in a profanity- laced reaction that all they did was say good luck or whatever, and the heck with them or bleep them, as U.S. Attorney Fitzgerald put it.
SANCHEZ: There is a lot of bleeping in this charging document and not just from the governor, but apparently from the first lady as well. As we go through some of these, we will be sharing them with you.
Clarence, one of the best in the business, stay with us. We're going to continue to go through this. And, you know, the question I was asking about suddenly Jarrett's name being taken out of there, and I want to come back, because we got to get a break in, but I want to ask you about this, do prosecutors from time to time tip certain people off about their investigation if they feel they are on a need-to-know basis?
And I will get your answer on that on the other side, because that has a lot to do with Barack Obama in this case and what some people have been wondering about.
Stay with us. We will be right back with more and we are expecting at any moment that we will be get a briefing at the law offices of the folks representing Congressman Jesse Jackson.
Stay with us. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: All right. Here we go, a lot of information that is coming in right now.
Let's go the Drew Griffin. He is standing by outside the law offices of the congressman Jesse Jackson Jr.
What are you learning, Drew?
GRIFFIN: (AUDIO GAP) the newly retained attorney for the congressman...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Can't hear Drew. Is that just me?
Drew, start over. I don't think we heard -- we caught the first part of that.
GRIFFIN: Yes.
James Montgomery Jr., the congressman's just retained attorney, said in the news conference that based on conversations he had with the U.S. attorney and what he has read, he now assumes that Senate candidate number five is Jesse Jackson Jr.
He also says that having spoken with the U.S. attorney, the U.S. attorney confirmed that Congressman Jackson is not a target of this investigation. He insists that the congressman never authorized anyone to seek the governor's support in exchange for anything. There was no pay-to-play conversation with Governor Blagojevich or anyone else on Congressman Jackson's behalf.
So, not actually a confirmation that it is Senate candidate number five, just an assumption based on a conversation with the U.S. attorney.
SANCHEZ: All right, let's go back through some of this just to catch up the viewers on what we are talking about. We had read, and this is part of the charging document that caught our eye yesterday, and that is why we reported it. Rod Blagojevich, December 4, noted that he was going to meet with Senate candidate five in the next few days. It has since been confirmed that he did in fact he meet with him, and that was this past Monday as a matter of fact.
More information, this is also from the document. Blagojevich described an earlier approach by an associate of Senate candidate five as follow: "We were approached, pay to play, that, you know, he would raise me 500 grand. An emissary came. Then the other guy would raise $1 million if I made him, Senate candidate five, a senator."
So, again, to be fair, to be extremely fair in this case, this is Rod Blagojevich saying what someone had tried to do for him on behalf of Senate candidate number five, who we now apparently have confirmed by Drew Griffin was in fact Congressman Jesse Jackson Jr. That does mean that happened, Correct, Harold?
COPUS: That is correct. We don't know what is going to happen, but I will tell you that I suspect when this is all played out, they used several different things. They had a bug. They had a pin register and they used a trap and trace.
SANCHEZ: A pin register?
COPUS: Pin register.
SANCHEZ: That means they are tapping phones?
COPUS: Well, that means that is, any time I dial out, I -- in a remote location, I can see exactly who you call and the time. Trap and trace is just the reverse. I can pick up the inbound calls coming into certain telephone numbers.
SANCHEZ: Wow.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: And you are picking that up from reading this document.
COPUS: I'm reading this...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: And trap and trace, you said?
COPUS: Inbound. Pin register is outbound.
SANCHEZ: Explain that to us when we come back.
COPUS: Sure.
SANCHEZ: We will take a quick break. We will be right back with more as the information on this story comes into us. We will continue to follow it. And once again, we do expect that Congressman Jesse Jackson Jr. will brief reporters on this within the hour.
Stay with us. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back.
I think, was it Yogi Berra who said curiouser and curiouser as the situation develops?
Two things we want to get to. First of all, I want you, Harold, if you could, to explain to us the second thing that you can now say. I imagine there's a lot of people shaking in their boots right now in Chicago listening to you, but they had a trap -- all right. Hold on.
I'm being told now there is brand-new tape coming in. This is Jesse Jackson Jr. moments ago leaving his office in Washington. Let's listen in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JESSE JACKSON JR. (D), ILLINOIS: I have done nothing wrong. This is a very serious matter, one that is going to restore confidence at the end of this process in government in Illinois.
And that is long overdue. So, I know that a lot of people are going to be touched and affected by this process, but I am confident that we have engaged in no wrongdoing. The facts are going to bear themselves out. And our state is going to be all the better for it. Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Clarence, you know him. You know his usual comportment. You're joining us now as a columnist for "The Chicago Tribune".
PAGE: Right.
SANCHEZ: From what you saw there, does he look to you like a guy who's nervous about something?
PAGE: Well, I think that he is concerned about public perceptions. He does want to be named the senator to replace Barack Obama. He was one of Obama's co-chairpersons -- campaign co- chairpersons, of which there were several. And this does not look good -- to have his name associated with the Blagojevich investigation.
SANCHEZ: What do you make of the fact that he's now confirmed -- according to information relayed to us through our Drew Griffin by his lawyers -- that he is, in fact, "Senate candidate No. 5," as referred to in the prosecutor's charging document?
PAGE: Right. Well, that's quite possible. And I want to refer back to the quote that you just read before the break from the charging document, which was first...
SANCHEZ: In fact, we have a graphic of that. Yes.
PAGE: Good.
SANCHEZ: I think we can put that up while we read it.
PAGE: That was the October 31st Halloween Day conversation, in which Blagojevich described an approach from an associate of "Senate candidate No. 5" -- who we believe to be Congressman Jackson -- saying we were approached pay to play that, you know, he'd raise me $500,000. An emissary came. Then the other guy would raise a million if I made him -- purportedly Jackson -- a senator.
What we have here is Blagojevich saying that he was approached for a pay for play, which, as I mentioned before, is illegal if you're trading a thing of value for a Senate appointment. And that somebody else said that they'd raise him another million -- I guess it's another million -- if I made Senate candidate 5 a candidate.
We're hearing this all from Blagojevich.
SANCHEZ: Right.
PAGE: And, you know, Blagojevich has a tendency to just ramble on. He's the kind of guy who doesn't -- doesn't have an unspoken thought sometimes. You could see that from the news conference...
SANCHEZ: But to be...
PAGE: ...the other day.
SANCHEZ: But to be clear, if we go by what the lawyers for Jesse Jackson, Jr. are saying and we go by what the prosecutors are saying that the governor said, then the governor is saying that someone representing Jesse Jackson, Jr. came to them for a pay for play deal, right?
PAGE: That's right. That's the way Blagojevich apparently perceived it, anyway. What we don't have is any testimony or eavesdrop from the -- from Jackson or somebody who isn't an associate of his to back this up. So, certainly, Fitzgerald has a case that Blagojevich was very interested in a pay to play and was -- was actively engaged in such an enterprise. Whether or not such an enterprise was actually offered to him is what we don't know.
And the fact that we're hearing now that Jackson is not a target of the investigation would tend to indicate that maybe Blagojevich interpreted things the way he wanted to -- or at least was very hopeful of some kind of a pay to play, whether or not it was actually going on or not.
SANCHEZ: And I'm glad you made that point. Just to be fair, it's an important point to make -- that these are Blagojevich's words. It may very well be nothing more than braggadocio at this point, as you had indicated. I saw you writing... PAGE: Or wishful thinking...
SANCHEZ: Go ahead.
PAGE: Or wishful thinking.
SANCHEZ: Or wishful thinking.
PAGE: Remember now, it's not that unusual for a politician to say to another, look, you help me out and I'll help you out down the road. That's not necessarily illegal. But if you have traded what they say in law is a thing of value and what is said in this criminal affidavit, then you have a step into illegal territory.
So, you know, Blagojevich may have one perception and Jackson's associates may have another one.
SANCHEZ: Wow! This thing is moving fast. You -- I saw you writing some down notes down.
You wanted to make a point, Harold?
HAROLD COPUS, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Well, I think what's going to happen is we'll get clarity. It's going to be called transcripts. And they'll be released and you'll know all the parties to these conversations. You'll know exactly what was said. You won't to have to worry about reading anything into it.
SANCHEZ: As we get more information, I want -- I want to go ahead and clear up some of the things that -- the points that you had made.
Angie, if we can, can we go another block on this and continue this discussion as the information -- all right, let's do this. And if you haven't seen this now, this came into us just moments ago. This is the first comments -- public comments made by Congressman Jesse Jackson, Jr. .
Let's go out on that and we'll come back after the break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: I feel very good. I have done nothing wrong. This is a very serious matter. But it's going to restore confidence -- at the end of this process -- in the government in Illinois. And that is long overdue. And so I (INAUDIBLE) a lot of people are going to be touched and affected by this process. But I am confident that we have engaged in no wrongdoing. The facts are going to bear themselves out. And our state is going to be all the better for it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: We welcome you back.
I'm Rick Sanchez here in the World Headquarters of CNN.
As we go through some of this information and the expectation that we are going to be hearing even more from Congressman Jesse Jackson, Jr. -- a difficult situation, I'm sure, for him, to suddenly find himself embroiled in this investigation of the governor of Illinois.
We have this interesting exchange, as well, that's coming from the charging document. Before we lose Clarence Page, noted columnist for "The Chicago Tribune," I want to bring him in for this.
Here it is. This is Blagojevich now. And he says that the consultants are telling him to: "Give this bleep" -- referring to the president-elect, referring to Barack Obama -- "his senator." In other words, to give Barack Obama his senator. What he means by that is the person that he wants to be in that office. Some people are assuming that's Valerie Jarrett.
"Bleep him," he says, "for nothing -- as if not getting anything in return. Bleep him."
Interesting exchange, wouldn't you say, Clarence?
PAGE: Yes. Well, it's typical of Blagojevich's accounts here, where he -- you know, other quotes where he says, hey, a Senate seat -- this is worth gold. You know -- you know, we can't just give that away for free. And, you know, he's putting a price tag on it and he's treating this like some kind of an ATM or something, that he can just go out there and cash in...
SANCHEZ: Do you think...
PAGE: ...and that's what he's actively doing.
SANCHEZ: Given what you know about the relationship between Blagojevich and Obama -- and you know certainly a lot more than most of us do, working that market for so long...
PAGE: Right.
SANCHEZ: ...do you think there was any contact between the two men?
Do you believe that perhaps the Feds may have tipped the president-elect off that he needs to have his Senate candidate choice -- if it was, in fact, Jarrett -- stay away from this situation?
PAGE: Or somebody from Obama's camp may have tipped off the Feds. And that has been widely speculated -- that Rahm Emanuel, for example, someone like him, who had been approached by Obama's...
SANCHEZ: Interesting.
PAGE: ...by Blagojevich, or Blagojevich's intermediaries, may have -- after sending him on -- Blagojevich's guy on his way, may have turned around and called up Fitzgerald. SANCHEZ: Well...
PAGE: This is not that -- it wouldn't be that extraordinary. And, in fact, it would be an ethical thing to do when you know that you've been approached to engaged in a criminal enterprise.
SANCHEZ: It's what you're supposed to do.
PAGE: That's what you're supposed to do.
SANCHEZ: And, unfortunately, that doesn't happen enough.
I know you've got deadlines and you've got a lot to do.
Thanks for sticking with us as long as you did, Clarence.
PAGE: Thanks for having me.
SANCHEZ: One of the best there at the "Chicago Tribune".
Let's pick up the conversation he just raised.
Is it customary either way -- would a federal prosecutor tip off say someone, let's say, like Barack Obama or, in this case, Jarrett, that they need to be careful in dealing with this guy because he might be trying to do a shakedown?
COPUS: It wouldn't be unusual at all. And it may not be at that level. It may have worked all its way up to the top of the Justice Department...
SANCHEZ: But then people would ask why would they do it for one person and not for -- let's suppose they didn't do it for Jesse Jackson, Jr. but they did it for Jarrett or for Barack Obama. That's not fair.
COPUS: It's -- I didn't say it was fair. I just said it's possible it happened.
SANCHEZ: Let -- tell us again what you just tried to explain to us -- the two forms that you're now understanding that they used to try and get information on people and why that's critical in this case.
COPUS: Well, I think what happens is you had a wiretap...
SANCHEZ: Right.
COPUS: ...which is different than a bug. So we had two forms of intercepts. A pin register, which means any calls he was placing out, they're recording who he placed the calls to. Trap and trace, meaning anybody calling him, which is equally important -- thinking well...
SANCHEZ: Wow!
COPUS: ...they won't catch me on this... SANCHEZ: Trap and trace.
COPUS: Trap and trace. And then they had consensual recording, meaning people were wearing body bugs.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: So that means there's a lot of people in Chicago right now who are listening to you and they've got to -- if they're not a little nervous, maybe they should be.
COPUS: I suspect the -- the defense bar in Chicago is busy right now.
SANCHEZ: My thanks to you for coming in and taking us through this.
Let's do this again.
When we come back, O.J. Simpson -- where is he now?
Where will he be and what's it going to be like for him in prison?
We'll talk to somebody who's been there. And Ashley Banfield, my old colleague, joins us, as well, to take us through this.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: And we welcome you back.
I'm Rick Sanchez.
I wish we would have been able to get your involvement more in this thus far, but the information has been coming in so fast and so furious.
But let's get a couple right now -- what those of you who have been watching what's been going on here, as the information has been coming in, have been saying this. Dawn is watching us and she says: "The plot thickens. I'm very interested in the final outcome of this Illinois Senate seat mess. I hope there are no more surprises."
Don't hold your breath.
ACYN says: "He wasn't nervous" -- referring to Jesse Jackson, Jr. -- "that was his same demeanor during the election party for Obama."
So no sense there that there was a sense of nervousness on him.
The other story that we want to bring you now -- because we're getting some of our very first pictures of the prison. It's called the High Desert Prison. It's a medium security prison where it appears O.J. Simpson will spend a very long time.
It's hard to tell whether it's going to be nine-and-a-half years or it could be, if things go bad for him, as many as 30 years behind bars -- of course, barring any appeals in this case. That's what it looks like.
The gentleman sitting here to my right knows what those prisons look like because he's been there himself. He spent time behind bars.
Akono Edundayo is good enough to join us now.
Did I get that right?
AKONO EDUNDAYO, ATLANTA UNION MISSION: That's close enough.
SANCHEZ: All right.
You were a bank robber?
EDUNDAYO: Yes.
SANCHEZ: And you spent how many years behind bars?
EDUNDAYO: Nine.
SANCHEZ: And tell us before we go -- because Ashley Banfield is standing by, too, and she's going to be joining us in this discussion -- my old colleague, by the way, and a dear friend.
What does -- what should O.J. be expecting?
Put us in his shoes.
What's he going to be going through in the next couple of days?
EDUNDAYO: Well, he's going to get orientated into where his living space is going to be for the next nine years. And they're going to evaluate him, you know, whether he has diseases or whatever. He's going to get his medical stuff checked out. You know, it's not...
SANCHEZ: Is he going to be kept away from everybody else?
EDUNDAYO: Most likely.
SANCHEZ: How -- how lonely is it?
How desperate?
What do you -- what's going through your head when someone throws you behind bars like this?
EDUNDAYO: Well...
SANCHEZ: And you know you're going to be in there for a long time. EDUNDAYO: Well, if you go into isolation, then you're going to be there by yourself. You're not going to have any contact with the populace at all. You're just going to be by yourself. And that's the treatment he's going to get.
SANCHEZ: Did you ever get that treatment?
EDUNDAYO: When I was in fights, you know...
SANCHEZ: How long did it take you to adjust?
EDUNDAYO: Well, it wasn't a period of adjustment because when I got there, I found out that I had a lot of friends there.
SANCHEZ: Really?
EDUNDAYO: Yes.
SANCHEZ: Were you scared?
EDUNDAYO: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
SANCHEZ: How scared?
EDUNDAYO: Scared enough, you know, to -- you know, you didn't sleep for the first two weeks, because we were thrown into an open bay situation. He has where he's going to be in a lockdown where they close the doors and it's only him. He's not going to have a cellmate or anything.
SANCHEZ: We read that in prisons, people find niches -- groups -- African-Americans over here...
EDUNDAYO: Yes.
SANCHEZ: ...Hispanics over there...
EDUNDAYO: Yes.
SANCHEZ: ...whites or white supremacists over there.
EDUNDAYO: Right.
SANCHEZ: Where does O.J. go in that?
EDUNDAYO: Well, of course, obvious he's going to be -- he's going to have to find his group. But most likely, he won't be around anybody for a long, long time.
SANCHEZ: And when he does finally get around and has to find his place in that community, do you have to find your place or can you be a loner and survive?
EDUNDAYO: You can be a loner. But it's better to be in a group, because when you're with a group, then you have more protection.
SANCHEZ: How much violence is behind these prison walls?
EDUNDAYO: Oh, man. There's more violence in the prison than it is on the streets.
SANCHEZ: Really?
EDUNDAYO: Really. Really.
SANCHEZ: Do you fear for your life when you're there?
EDUNDAYO: Everyday. Somebody...
SANCHEZ: What kind of violence?
EDUNDAYO: Getting shanked, you know, because you owe somebody some money or you -- somebody wants to try your manhood.
SANCHEZ: Wow!
Thanks so much for coming in.
EDUNDAYO: All right.
Thank you.
SANCHEZ: We appreciate it.
EDUNDAYO: Yes, sir.
SANCHEZ: An interesting discussion.
And we'll be following along. So many people are curious about this situation.
EDUNDAYO: All right.
SANCHEZ: And thank you for sharing a very honest part of your life with us.
EDUNDAYO: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: There is new tape coming in of the man who actually lost his house because he had a fighter jet fall into it -- crash into it, I should say. And as a result, he lost his mother-in-law, his wife and his two children. It's an incredible scene. We'll bring it to you in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back.
I'm Rick Sanchez.
Well, you know, Wolf Blitzer is going to be all over part of these stories that we've been talking about now.
He's joining us now.
You almost knew this investigation was going to have legs, Wolf. But now we don't know exactly what these legs are going to lead to.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, you never know. Seventy-six pages -- if you've read that document -- and I know you have, Rick -- it's amazing, amazing stuff. And as you've been pointing out, we're standing by to hear live from Congressman Jesse Jackson, Jr. . He's holding a news conference in a few minutes on the breaking news story -- the investigation into the case against the Illinois governor.
Also, Barack Obama decides to use his full name when he's sworn into office on January 20th -- Barack Hussein Obama.
Is it part of a bigger message he's sending out there?
And drama on Capitol Hill as lawmakers fight for an auto bailout bill. Senate Republicans say they have deep concerns about the agreement between Democrats in Congress and the Bush White House.
Lots of news happening right here at the top of the hour -- Rick, we'll be all over it.
SANCHEZ: Yes, there is. You will.
Thank you so much, Wolf, for bringing us up to date on that.
By the way, let's bring you this tape. I want you to see it. Now, this is sad and tough to watch. This is a man who's lost his two children, his wife and his mother-in-law when a jet fighter fell on his house.
Watch and listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONG YUN YOON, HUSBAND, FATHER OF CRASH VICTIMS: It's such a horrible thing to happen, especially right here, you know, right our house. But I -- I believe my wife and two babies and mother-in-law are in heaven with God. And I know God is taking care of them. And please -- I heard the pilot is safe. Please pray for him not to suffer from this accident. I know he's -- he's one of our treasures for the country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: And it's interesting, we noted while he was talking, you could actually hear other fighter jets in the distance. Oprah Winfrey saying, in many ways, as far as her weight is concerned, she just can't help herself. You'll hear it in her words.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Boy, many of you are interested in the story that we've been telling you about. By the way, you're not interested in any O.J. Simpson stories. You have told me in no uncertain terms -- I've been reading here on the Twitter board -- "Stop talking about O.J. Simpson, Sanchez."
"Are you really spending time talking about O.J. right now, seriously? I mean seriously?"
All right. We did.
And if offended, I apologize.
By the way, the big story today -- and the one that seems to be captivating the entire country -- is what's going on in Chicago, even involving the first lady of Illinois and the comments that she was heard saying on tape.
I want you to hear what was said this morning on "The View" by those ladies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Say it.
(CROSSTALK)
WHOOPI GOLDBERG, CO-HOST "THE VIEW": What?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Blagojevich.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
GOLDBERG: Governor Rod Blagojevich...
BARBARA WALTERS, CO-HOST "THE VIEW": She's got enough trouble.
GOLDBERG: ...is all over the headlines for massive corruption charges, including trying to sell Barack Obama's Senate seat. They've got him on the phone cussing people out. He is -- -- what the hell?
(LAUGHTER)
WALTERS: The wife is also involved.
GOLDBERG: Right. Patricia.
WALTERS: First of all, he wanted her to have a high -- a high- paying job in Washington. But she also was heard in the background. And they have two little girls, 12 and five. And every third word out of both of their mouths -- mommy and daddy -- begins with an F and it isn't -- it isn't Frank. And, you know, you listen to this and it's F this and F that and F this...
(WHISTLING)
(LAUGHTER)
WALTERS: You don't know what I'm talking about.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, because, Whoopi doesn't...
WALTERS: I mean what the hell, right?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Nobody says it like the ladies on "The View."
The market's about to close.
We'll bring you that in just a moment.
Stay with us.
We're going to try and get another break in. And we'll be back on the other side to wrap up this story about Blagojevich.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: We've got a pickup of where Jesse Jackson, Jr. will be briefing reporters momentarily. It's going to be happening during Wolf's hour in THE SITUATION ROOM. And I'm told they're going to be bringing it to you as it happens, as you might expect.
Meanwhile, the market today, with all the harangues going on in the world of politics, apparently not affected -- at least not too much.
Susan Lisovicz is picking this up for us.
What have you got -- Susan?
(STOCK MARKET REPORT)
SANCHEZ: And no auto bailout yet, but we're told they're very, very close. And we'll tell you about it as soon as it happens.
Wolf Blitzer is standing by now.
He's in THE SITUATION ROOM.
BLITZER: Thanks very much, Rick.
