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Rod Blagojevich Speaks Out; Remains of Caylee Anthony Identified

Aired December 19, 2008 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: This is an unbelievable day, really two big stories that we are following for you on this day.
We are going to be taking you through both of them. Obviously, the announcement by officials in Central Florida that they have now identified the remains of Caylee Anthony is something that a lot of people are going to be following for quite a long time.

At the same time, we also have -- and if you would, Roger, this is a story that is about to take place. It is the Blagojevich story that you have been hearing from Kyra. That's the picture right there.

I think that is right of 203 or 204. That is where the governor has been coming out. To some, this is a bit of a surprise. Remember, keep in mind what is going on over the last couple of days, everything from people saying that governor would resign, to the governor is going to be pressured to resign, to the governor is going the fight this.

And it is obviously the latter that seems to be the most prominent explanation, at least at this point. Here is what we are going to do for you. We are going to have Roland Martin, our CNN political analyst. Roland Martin, as you may know, is from the Chicago area.

What is that? What did they just give us, a thumb's up? Or is that two-minute warning? All right, let's stay with that picture. For you of you night us now, Governor Rod Blagojevich, the embattled Rod Blagojevich, is about to make his very first public and talking to reporters.

Roland Martin is going to be joining us. Patricia Murphy is going to be joining us from Citizen Jane.

Let's listen to this. Let me listen to what she is saying.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... No questions. He is not going to be taking any questions.

(CROSSTALK)

QUESTION: ... two-minute warning?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do we need to check the levels one more time? -- 10, nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one.

Again, the governor will not be taking any questions. Is this a good enough sound check or do people need me to keep talking? Am I good?

SANCHEZ: All right, there you have the sound check.

The important information that just came out of that -- and this is an interesting question -- is , would the governor take questions? The governor finds himself in a very difficult situation at this time. If he takes questions, as our Constitution says, he could possibly incriminate himself.

I want to bring in Pamela Bethel. She's a former prosecutor, also a criminal defense attorney right now.

How does he walk this delicate line?

PAMELA BETHEL, ATTORNEY: With a great deal of skill.

This is a prosecutor's dream and a defense lawyer's nightmare. I have both prosecuted and represented politicians. And it is really hard to get them to not speak. They feel that they must speak to the people, they must say something, but they are saying something in an environment when they don't know the extent of the government's case. So, they may attempt to deny or put a certain explanation that they later will regret, because the evidence may be overwhelming that what they said was just inaccurate or not the truth.

SANCHEZ: I have a feeling he has got a pretty good idea what the government has got on him, since they are saying most of this was on wiretaps, although, sometimes, if you have a lot of conversations over a long period of time...

BETHEL: You don't remember.

SANCHEZ: Yes, exactly.

BETHEL: You don't remember exactly what you said to whom and when you said it. And particularly if your mind-set is that you are not really doing anything wrong, you don't remember your specific words and who you were talking to.

SANCHEZ: Pamela, stay there. I want to get right back to you.

BETHEL: OK.

SANCHEZ: We are also going to be talking to Rick Pearson. He's with "The Chicago Tribune." Obviously, he has been writing about this and covering this story for a long time, more than any of us.

Patricia Murphy is with Citizen Jane Politics. And Susan Roesgen is actually in that room there that you are seeing to the left of your camera. And I'm going to join her in just a minute. In fact, we are going to shoot the first question at her. But I want you to take a look at this video. This is the governor yesterday being asked by reporters if he would speak, and he is going for a jog and he has got his jogging suit on, and one gets the feeling he wants to make sure that he is photographed in that jogging suit.

Let's take that, Rog. Now, here is a guy who is under a heck of a lot of -- a lot of questions coming from the U.S. attorney's office, and he puts on a jogging suit, because he knows the cameras are outside. We will get into that in just a minute.

But let go to Susan Roesgen.

I don't want to make you react to this, Susan, but you have been watching this situation play out almost like some kind of Fellini movie there in Chicago for a bit of a while. Give us a sense of what is happening there and in the room and also tell us how long before the governor is expected to speak.

SUSAN ROESGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We are just getting a two- minute warning, Rick, and the governor has been indomitably cheerful. He's been sunny. He's smiling. He's never given any hint that any of this has affected him in a bad way at all.

And, so, we don't know what to expect from the governor at this point. But the room is packed, 100 reporters, 20 television cameras all waiting for the governor to come out. Press people have told us that they expect it to be short, Rick. Whatever he says is going to be short. I don't think anyone expects him to resign. That is not expected.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: Patricia, do you get a sense -- Patricia, do you get a sense that this guy is liking the camera attention even under this situation? I mean, treadmills are not that expensive, and they are very good to use, especially when the weather outside is like what we just saw in Chicago.

PATRICIA MURPHY, EDITOR, CITIZENJANEPOLITICS.COM: I have been wondering all week where his treadmill is. It is completely baffling to me why he is trotting himself out through the streets of Chicago with this press corps there.

I do think, though, it is his effort to pretend there is nothing going on here, there's nothing wrong here, I haven't done a single thing wrong.

If that is the message he sending, it is certainly not being conveyed, but this the press conference I think will be along those lines.

Rick Pearson joining us now with "The Chicago Tribune." He's on the phone. We have got about 45 seconds before the governor comes out.

Rick, what is your take? What are you expecting here?

RICK PEARSON, POLITICAL REPORTER, "THE CHICAGO TRIBUNE": I am expecting him to act as he has for the last six years, that he's going to say he did nothing wrong, that he is a victim of his reformist way and that -- trying to show that once again he's the white knight of Illinois politics.

SANCHEZ: What is with the all the bravado and has he always been that way?

PEARSON: Very much so. He has always claimed that any time that there was some kind of action against him, that he was being victimized because he was trying to change the way Illinois government operates.

SANCHEZ: Is there any way that you see after following this guy for so long that somehow he can turn this thing around in much the way that Bill Clinton turned his situation around with Monica Lewinsky?

PEARSON: I would think that his predecessor, George Ryan, who is in Terre Haute, Indiana, federal prison probably has more credibility among Illinois legislators than Rod Blagojevich does today.

SANCHEZ: Pamela Bethel, what does he have to make sure he doesn't do during this news conference?

BETHEL: He can't say anything that the government can prove unequivocally is not true. He can just say -- he can take the stance that the gentleman just said. I'm a victim. Just bear with me. Stay with me. My hear -- I want your heart and your prayers.

But if he begins to give any kind of substantive response and the government can prove that that is just a lie, that tape will be replayed in court. I can bet it.

SANCHEZ: What about the possibility that this guy can start becoming combative with other people? How many politicians in Chicago are nervous -- is that him coming out?

BETHEL: Well, you know...

SANCHEZ: Here he goes.

(CROSSTALK)

BETHEL: OK.

SANCHEZ: We are seeing some movement, so I am just going to stop you, because I would feel bad...

(CROSSTALK)

BETHEL: OK. All right.

SANCHEZ: Yes. Here he comes. Here comes Rod Blagojevich now. He's coming to the podium. And we are going to let you listen. GOV. ROD BLAGOJEVICH (D), ILLINOIS: OK. Thank you very much.

I'm here to tell you right off the bat that I am not guilty of any criminal wrongdoing, that I intend to stay on the job, and I will fight this thing every step of the way.

I will fight. I will fight. I will fight until I take my last breath.

I have done nothing wrong, and I'm not going to quit a job the people hired me to do because of false accusations and a political lynch mob.

Now, that's what I'm going to do. Let me tell you what I'm not going to do. I'm not going to do what my accusers and political enemies have been doing, and that is talk about this case in 30-second sound bites on "Meet the Press" or on the T. V. news.

Now, I'm dying to answer these charges. I am dying to show you how innocent I am. And I want to assure everyone who's here, and everyone who's listening, that I intend to answer every allegation that comes my way.

However, I intend to answer them in the appropriate forum -- in a court of law. And when I do, I am absolutely certain that I will be vindicated.

Rudyard Kipling wrote, If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you; if you can trust yourself when all men doubt you and make allowance for their doubting, too; if you can wait and not be tired by waiting; or being lied about, don't deal in lies; or being hated, don't give way to hating.

Now, I know there are some powerful forces arrayed against me. It's kind of lonely right now. But I have on my side the most powerful ally there is, and it's the truth.

And besides, I have the personal knowledge that I have not done anything wrong.

To the people of Illinois, I ask that they wait and be patient, sit back and take a deep breath, and please reserve judgment. Afford me the same rights that you and your children have. The presumption of innocence. The right to defend yourself. The right to your day in court. The same rights that you would expect for yourselves.

And one last thing: To all of those -- to those of you who have expressed your support to Patti and me during this difficult time, I would like to thank you for your thoughts; I would like to thank you for your prayers; and I would like to thank you for your good wishes.

Patti and I cannot express to you how grateful we are for your kindness.

Merry Christmas. Happy holidays.

SANCHEZ: And there he walks away, Rod Blagojevich.

The poem, by the way, is called "If" by Rudyard Kipling. Most of us read it either in late elementary school, grammar school, or junior high school, or middle school. He used it. He seemed nervous, at some points having to look down, didn't seem like he was wearing -- or reading a prepared script.

Let's go around the horn here.

Let's start with Rick Pearson, if you are still with us. You are there. You're in Chicago. You have been following this guy. Your take.

Rick Pearson, you there?

All right. Let's do this. Somebody in the room.

Susan, she has been following this as, and we are going to be joining her in just a little bit. Roland Martin is going to be joining us in just a little bit.

Gary Tuchman is joining us now. He is new to this ball game. He has had a conversation with Mr. Genson -- Or is it Genson? We are still not sure how he pronounces his last name.

Ed, Ed Genson, the prosecutor -- or pardon me -- the criminal defense attorney who has been representing Rod Blagojevich, Tuch, what did you learn?

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Rick, I can tell you a lot about what is going on right now.

First of all, this Ed Genson is an unusual guy. Really, his name is Genson -- hard G -- but he says so many people call him Genson over the years, you can call him whatever the heck you want. We're going to call him Ed Genson, because that is his given name.

What he told me on the phone today was that he instructed his client to only give a statement, not have a news conference. Two days ago, Genson told me in Springfield, the state capital, that he was going to allow his client to have a news conference. He changed his mind over the last two days, telling me he realized that it was not prudent for the governor the take reporters' questions.

And you bet after that statement. When you give a statement, you will know you will try to come off a lot better than if you got reporters' questions. And that man to a lot of people in the Illinois legislature are, I can tell you, they are going to be steaming from the ears right now, because it was quite an amazing thing when he started to say that, I'm very innocent, I am going to fight, and fight and fight until my last breath.

And what would make the Illinois legislature mad, he didn't say how is he going to govern the state of Illinois during all this. People are not willing to work with him right now. So, it is almost comes off as kind of selfish that he is saying, I'm not quitting. And it is very hard for him to govern right now. But what I need to tell you is this, Rick. This is really important.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

TUCHMAN: The hint of the defense was given to us two days ago at the impeachment hearing, hint of a possible criminal defense.

His lawyer talking to legislators who are looking to impeach him said what he said -- what my client said on those tapes, he may have been jabbering, it may be dumb, it may be inappropriate, but there's no indication or evidence he carried out a crime.

So, when the governor says he's innocent, indeed, he may be saying I'm innocent, I didn't commit any crime, but he is not addressing the things that he said which certainly come off as slightly sleazy, and in Illinois you can't impeach and convict based on the fact that you think a governor is bad or sleazy.

SANCHEZ: What is the effect going to be in the court of public opinion, not so much the court of law, because I'm not going to ask you this question.

Rick Pearson, I understand you're back with us now. You may have stepped away for just a little bit. What will be the effect of this news conference, of what the governor is doing, and the fact that it does appear that he's going to be combative and he's going to fight this thing all the way through?

Rick Pearson, you there?

PEARSON: You have to remember that even before his arrest, we did a poll that showed his job approval rating in Illinois was 13 percent, which was the lowest in three decades of polling by "The Tribune" on any statewide public official.

SANCHEZ: Wow.

PEARSON: This is what Illinois voters know. This is the Rod Blagojevich Illinois voters know.

And as I said at the start, he started saying this is action being brought by his political enemies and that he knows the truth. And this is not the first time that he has uttered Kipling's "If" before. We have all heard that kind of trivia before.

The fact of the matter is that this is really what I think most of the Illinois General Assembly expected that they would hear from him today. He will probably not testify before the impeachment proceedings that are going on in Springfield, but certainly, this kind of defiance is nothing new.

And I think if anything, it just kind of fuels the way for them to keep going towards impeachment.

SANCHEZ: By the way, I want to bring Pamela Bethel in here real quick, because you and I had a conversation just before he started speaking.

I am looking at the notes about what he said. Peruse it for us like a lawyer. Did he say anything that would cause him problems in the future that you heard?

BETHEL: No, absolutely not. He gave the kind of statement I was about to talk about, one where he said nothing.

He just said, I want your heart, your soul. Be with me. Pray for me. Be with me. I love you. I will work with you.

It's a I love you. He didn't say anything substantive. That is the kind of thing that any politician can say, but you don't have to call a news conference to do that. He could have stood on the steps to said that. That is absolutely nothing.

SANCHEZ: I want to bring Roland Martin into this discussion. I understand he's joining us now as well.

But let me just share something with you that was given to me just moments ago. We have just been told that there is a 3:30 news conference now on the Caylee Anthony story. You heard that they did announce or confirm that in fact those are her remains. Now we understand the meter reader, who had contacted police three times back in August -- remember, the little girl disappeared in June -- her mother didn't report her missing until July -- contacted police three times in August. Lot of questions on the police about this.

They are going to have that news conference coming up at 3:30, and we're going to bring it to you live as it happens.

Now back to Roland Martin.

Roland, there is something in our culture, my culture, called face, saving face. It is hard to do. When you are dealing with a situation like this and you know that everybody is looking at you, and you read those approval ratings that we just heard from Rick Pearson that are about 13 percent, how do you get the gumption to stand before cameras and say, this is just people out to get me; I have done absolutely nothing wrong?

ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Easy, because you have no other options. What is he going to do? Actually think about it. OK? All he has left is to be the governor of the state. He is not going to go out and be hired by anybody. He is not going to run for any particular office.

This is a guy who is pushed into a corner, and he has two choices. He can wilt or he can fight. He clearly has decided to fight. Now, look, last week, he was talking to various people about how would he exit the governor's office. That conversation with Ed Genson over the weekend, that eight-hour conversation, the attorney clearly said, guy, let's just be honest here. What do they got against you where they can convict you?

When George Ryan was convicted, they had evidence where he actually took money from companies, from friends, from individuals. His attorney is saying, no crime was committed. He obliterated the state panel the other day. In fact, at one point, Rick, and I was talking to some state legislators, and they said, this guy totally embarrassed them.

One lawyer said -- told attorney Genson, you need to go back to teach law. He said, I taught your father.

This is a guy who is an attorney who wants to fight and he wants to fight.

SANCHEZ: You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride.

Patricia Murphy joining us as well.

Is he done politically?

MURPHY: Oh, he is absolutely done politically.

I will say one thing I didn't hear from him -- and here in Washington this is what people want to know -- what is he going to do about that Senate seat? He is the only man with the power to appoint Barack Obama's successor right now. The Democrats are waiting to see who that is going to be, or if there will be a special election. Very, very anxious here in D.C. to know what he is going to do about that.

They thought he might say something today about it, but he didn't. And, again, for the Obama people, this is the worst possible news to know that Blagojevich will be on the scene day after day after day.

SANCHEZ: Can he beat the rap? And I ask this either of Pamela Bethel or Rick Pearson, if they're there.

Rick, you're there. You are hearing what is being said in Chicago. Can he beat this rap? Is there a consensus?

PEARSON: Well, Rick, you have got to remember, a lot of the focus on this thing has been about the allegations of him trying to sell the Senate seat.

But that criminal complaint contains a lot more. And, also, there has not been an indictment issued yet. This is a guy who has been under investigation by the federal government shortly after he took office in 2003. They have a number of things on him in this criminal complaint as well about trying to squeeze money out of a highway contractor before he can determine what size of a big highway construction project went out.

SANCHEZ: The toll road and also the children's hospital.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: The children's hospital, yes.

PEARSON: That's right.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: He wanted $50,000, according to prosecutors.

PEARSON: So, you have got -- everybody is looking at that Senate seat issue, but there is much more here, and in fact, even in Illinois with the impeachment proceedings, it is probably doubtful that they could get a conviction in the state Senate on the criminal charges, because the government is not helping there, but they have certainly got a number of other issues in state government to deal with.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: Yes, Roland, go ahead. I want to bring you in this.

And you know what I wanted to ask you, is he emblematic of Chicago politics and if so not just what it says about Chicago politics, but how does this harm the Rahm Emanuels, the Axelrods, and a president-elect Barack Obama, if at all?

MARTIN: Look, you have people who have been investigated before who they have been targeting. And, look, they only resigned once they were actually indicted and they saw what was there.

This is a guy who challenged the manhood of his own father-in-law who accused him of trying to shake down various people. He did it at a news conference. Rod Blagojevich likes to fight. So this is no shock here.

But here is the other thing. He now has put the onus back on the U.S. attorney to say, OK, what you got now? What are you going to do next? The U.S. attorney I believe they were hoping he would resign. The legislature was hoping he would resign. He is now challenging the General Assembly and the U.S. attorney to say, you want to come get me? Put some more on the table and then we will talk.

That is what he is doing. He wants this fight.

SANCHEZ: Let's broaden the discussion, though, and I want to go around on this thing, because this is important.

Blagojevich in and of itself is an Illinois story, but the effect he could have on guys like Axelrod, a Chicago politics guy, Barack Obama, Jesse Jackson Jr., and the city politics itself, is there something there that is bigger than just Blagojevich, or is there the danger of it?

Go ahead, Roland. Start us off on that.

MARTIN: It is the great unknown. We don't know where this story can lead. We don't know what is on the wiretaps. We don't know what other kind of dealings took place. That is the problem. Because he is still on the scene, there is a huge question mark as to what other shoe could drop. That is the problem for all the folks you mentioned. SANCHEZ: By the way, I want -- I know there is a lot of folks who are just coming home from work and may have missed the actual pronouncement by Blagojevich.

But, before we do that, I want to get Patricia and Rick's take on that as well.

Is there the chance that he could be radioactive and this case could damage the people I just mentioned and perhaps others that we don't know about -- Rick?

PEARSON: Well, certainly from what we know in the criminal complaint, the affidavit on the wiretaps, somehow, we have that issue of communication that Rahm Emanuel was involved, that somehow Blagojevich got the word that the Obama camp was not going to deal on a U.S. Senate seat, which prompted all these expletives from the governor, who had fancied himself winning game-show-like prizes in government.

So, that is the thing we are waiting for. That, of course, is supposed to come out next week from the Obama internal review. But, you know, Illinois politics, Chicago politics, everybody knows each other. That does not necessarily mean they all play the same game, but everybody does know the game that exists.

SANCHEZ: But let me ask you this, and final question, Patricia Murphy.

Axelrod and Rahm Emanuel are as close and as important to our president-elect as any two other people who will be around him. If it sounds on some of these tape recordings like they were having a conversation where they knew what the governor was doing, how damaging will it be and how will Barack Obama have to deal with that?

MURPHY: Well, I think that is an area I'm a little worried to even speculate what their involvement was at this point. And again, we do know that the governor, himself, was very upset with Obama.

But for Obama right now, he wants to be establishing a relationship of trust with the American people. At press conferences to announce his Cabinet secretaries, he is having to bat down questions about corruption in his state. This is not what he wants to be talking about. He wants it to go away.

BROWN: Roland, one more shot at you on that question.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: Go ahead.

MARTIN: In fact, at today's news conference, Axelrod and Emanuel, they were there. I was there. There were no questions that came up regarding Blagojevich, regarding corruption. It was all about the auto bailout and the economy.

And so he is saying, look, I am going to keep pushing my agenda forward.

SANCHEZ: Roland Martin, Patricia Murphy, Rick Pearson, Pamela Bethel, my thanks to all of you. Appreciate the information.

For those of you who have just now been getting home, I want to watch this. This is something that has been expected throughout the country. And some people remain baffled by the reaction of Rod Blagojevich coming to the cameras today and saying that he is embattled, yes, but he will defend himself, because he is innocent.

Here is another take.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLAGOJEVICH: OK. Thank you very much.

I'm here to tell you right off the bat that I am not guilty of any criminal wrongdoing, that I intend to stay on the job, and I will fight this thing every step of the way.

I will fight. I will fight. I will fight until I take my last breath.

I have done nothing wrong, and I'm not going to quit a job the people hired me to do because of false accusations and a political lynch mob.

Now, that's what I'm going to do. Let me tell you what I'm not going to do. I'm not going to do what my accusers and political enemies have been doing, and that is talk about this case in 30-second sound bites on "Meet the Press" or on the T. V. news.

Now, I'm dying to answer these charges. I am dying to show you how innocent I am. And I want to assure everyone who's here, and everyone who's listening, that I intend to answer every allegation that comes my way.

However, I intend to answer them in the appropriate forum -- in a court of law. And when I do, I am absolutely certain that I will be vindicated.

Rudyard Kipling wrote, If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you; if you can trust yourself when all men doubt you and make allowance for their doubting, too; if you can wait and not be tired by waiting; or being lied about, don't deal in lies; or being hated, don't give way to hating.

Now, I know there are some powerful forces arrayed against me. It's kind of lonely right now. But I have on my side the most powerful ally there is, and it's the truth.

And besides, I have the personal knowledge that I have not done anything wrong.

To the people of Illinois, I ask that they wait and be patient, sit back and take a deep breath, and please reserve judgment. Afford me the same rights that you and your children have. The presumption of innocence. The right to defend yourself. The right to your day in court. The same rights that you would expect for yourselves.

And one last thing: To all of those -- to those of you who have expressed your support to Patti and me during this difficult time, I would like to thank you for your thoughts; I would like to thank you for your prayers; and I would like to thank you for your good wishes.

Patti and I cannot express to you how grateful we are for your kindness.

Merry Christmas. Happy holidays.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: There you have it, the news conference that so many people have been waiting for.

Fred is in Utah. He's watching our newscast right now. And he just sent us this message moments ago. In fact, it is the last tweet that came in.

"Blogo calling Patrick Fitzgerald a lynch mob is severely ignorant. Fitz has been nothing but objective, diligent and concise."

We understand -- we have been trying to get to Susan Roesgen out there. She was in the room. And she just walked outside, so she can brief us now on her take.

And what was the sense inside that room when he started uttering those words about incredibly innocent he is and how everybody else is out to get him?

ROESGEN: Oh, you could have heard a pin drop, like he is coming right out there. People have been demanding it.

Illinois voters, reporters, everyone has been demanding that he say something. And, by God, he did, pretty serious, the most serious comments and the most serious presentation we have seen from the governor since he was arrested.

Rick, what you all didn't take after that was his lawyer, one of his defense team speaking.

I asked that lawyer, what is he going to do about the Senate seat? Since the governor says he has not done anything wrong and he is not going to leave, is he going to appoint somebody to replace president-elect Barack Obama?

And that was the one question that stumped the defense lawyer. He said, we don't know. And I said, well, don't you think it is really important, not only to Illinois voters, but to the entire nation, at a time when we have got such serious problems? And he said, well, we really didn't know, but what is it going to matter whether it's a day or two? No, Rick, as you know, it could be a week or two or a month or two with the impeachment proceedings and whatever else might happen here.

There was one other thing that they talked about. The defense lawyer just repeated again, you know, he hasn't done anything wrong. He said it himself. He said everything he can say.

And when a reporter asked him, well, do you think the governor can still effectively govern, effectively manage this state, still be a leader of this state with this criminal cloud hanging over him, and the lawyer said, oh, absolutely. You heard him today. He has not done anything wrong. He is not only my client, said the lawyer, but he's my governor.

So, I think we are seeing the beginning of a real fight, Rick.

SANCHEZ: Points well made, Susan Roesgen, all over that story. Interesting to get your take, lawyer's take. Governor's job? What governor's job? I am just here to be his defense attorney.

All right, more on this.

We have just given a time cue. We are now about two-and-a-half to three minutes away from this news conference where we are going to hear from the meter reader.

Those of you following the story about a mother accused of killing her own toddler, her own baby daughter, we will have that for you in just a little bit. Lots of breaking news, and we are all over it.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: All right. Let me come back to you now, because we understand that we're -- go ahead and take that shot, if you would, Roger.

This is the meter reader that we're going to be hearing from in just a moment. Here's why this is important. The meter reader, it now turns out, as we learn on this day, that those are, in fact, the remains of Caylee Anthony -- a story that's been out there since the middle of June -- this guy called the police three times in August -- three times. And the police responded, at least the last time, in person to him.

He was giving them information that -- about the area where they ended up finding these bones -- these remains that were confirmed today. So this is a real important question that authorities are going to have to answer themselves and find out who dropped the ball in this case.

He turns out to also be the one who finally leads -- just recently -- police to the scene. All right. Let's take this now live with that as a backdrop. And we'll bring our guests in in just a moment.

Let's listen to this.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ...the remains of what has now been revealed to be Caylee Anthony.

So without further adieu, let me introduce Mr. Roy Kronk and his attorney, David Evans -- Roy.

ROY KRONK, FOUND CAYLEE'S REMAINS: Thank you.

I'll be reading from a prepared statement. Good afternoon. My name is Roy Kronk. On Thursday, December 11th, during the course of my duties as a county employee, I discovered and reported to my management and the appropriate authorities the remains of a human body located in the water area close to the Suburban Drive in East Orange County.

As the Orange County Sheriff's Office reported yesterday, back in August of this year, I had previously reported to crime line and to the sheriff's communication center that I had spotted something suspicious -- a bag in the same area. I have been and will continue to cooperate fully with the ongoing investigation by the sheriff's office and the FBI. I have provided detailed information to law enforcement, but I respectfully decline at this time to get into the details of what I saw at the crime scene.

At this time, I would like to turn the podium over to my attorney, David Evans, who will make further statements on my behalf. Before I leave the podium, though, I would like to give a specific thanks to a couple of individuals.

I would really like to thank Tim Armstrong, the division manager of customer service of Orange County, who I'm sure you all have been talking to. And he's done a really good job protecting me. He has stood by my side throughout this process and provided tremendous support to me.

I would also like to thank, David Evans, my lawyer. He has provided sound legal advice and assistance as I've worked through this process.

Thank you very much.

DAVID EVANS, KRONK'S ATTORNEY: Good afternoon, everybody.

My name is David Evans and I'm legal counsel for Roy Kronk.

And Mr. Kronk has asked me to make a brief statement today on his behalf.

Until today, Mr. Kronk has decided to remain anonymous. With the level of media attention here, the fact that he could so for over a week is nothing short of a miracle in itself.

His participation in the matter is strictly as a concerned citizen with a sharp eye good instincts and perseverance. He has no connection whatsoever to this case. He has no connection whatsoever to the Anthony family or any of the proceedings that have gone on before. He is here as a concerned citizen and no more.

Those who have speculated to the contrary could not be more wrong. One of the reasons he's come forward at this time is to bring some relief to his co-workers, many of whom have been the target of very intrusive news gathering activities and, again, more false speculation.

Mr. Kronk asked earnestly that you leave his co-workers alone and let them enjoy the holiday season without further intrusion.

He'd also like to publicly thank the management and his colleagues at Orange County Utilities and in Orange County generally. They have supported him through this difficult period and they have permitted him to work through it at his own pace, on his own terms and on his own time. And he's very appreciative for that.

He particularly appreciates those of his colleagues who protected his privacy and sacrificed their own in doing so.

So, please, allow his colleagues to have some peace over the holidays.

He would like to make clear that at the present time, he will not grant interviews or make further public statements about the case. He will continue to cooperate with law enforcement activities as a concerned citizen. But he will, at this present time, not be making further statements. And we will not be responding to questions here at the press conference today.

If and when he's deciding to -- if and when he decides to make or participate in an interview, he will make that decision known, we will evaluate his options and select an appropriate interview forum.

In the meantime, please respect his privacy. Please do not attempt to contact him and permit him some peace and quiet over the holidays.

Thank you.

QUESTION: Just can I ask you a quick question about (INAUDIBLE) what is it about the bag that (INAUDIBLE)?

EVANS: About -- he's not prepared to comment today. But the story of all of these events will certainly come out in great detail in the days to come.

(CROSSTALK)

EVANS: He's a good citizen.

Thank you.

SANCHEZ: All right. He said he wasn't going to take any questions and he's just taken a couple of them. He's almost tempted to try and answer some of these. That's the attorney for the meter reader.

This kind of capsulizes what we're talking about here.

Let's go over here to Facebook, if we can. Wayne Thomas is watching us right now. He says: "You know, it's an outrage to me that FBI agents, local police and others searched everywhere around the world for this little girl, but some civilian just comes across the remains close to where the house is. There's something wrong with that," he asks.

All right, we've got a bevy of people who are going to be taking us through this. Let me tell you who they are.

Ashleigh Banfield is going to be joining us in just a little bit. You now how long she's been following this story.

Larry Kobilinsky knows as much about forensics as just anybody else in this country. He's, by the way, a consultant to the defense in this case.

Pamela Bethel is staying with us. She's a former prosecutor and defense attorney.

And then, of course, we have Mike Brooks -- Mike, let me begin with you.

The bottom line is this guy, three times in August, called the police and said there's something you need to check on here. I live next to the grandparents' home, come and check this out. And three times maybe not denied, but there was some kind of problem.

Is this guy in trouble or are the police in trouble and do they owe him an apology?

MIKE BROOKS, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I don't think this guy is in trouble right now. At the beginning of the last conference and -- the press conference -- the sheriff -- Sheriff Berry said, in reference to this, that "wants to make an informed conclusion" and he has his professional standards division looking into this.

Well, what they need to do, Rick, they need -- there was three calls -- August 11th, 12th and 13th, two to communications, one to the crime line.

The first call, the deputy came out, he did not meet with the meter reader, Mr. Kronk.

SANCHEZ: Right.

BROOKS: OK. The second one was to a crime line. The CID criminal investigator (INAUDIBLE)... SANCHEZ: Say they couldn't find him.

BROOKS: Well, they looked into it and they said that area has been searched with cadaver dogs.

(LAUGHTER)

BROOKS: So they didn't stay. I mean we're talking a large one acre area.

SANCHEZ: The same area where they have now found the remains?

BROOKS: That's correct.

Now, the second -- the third call, the deputy respond and did meet with the meter reader. What was said, what the meter reader -- what the initial call to communications was and what the depo -- what the disposition of the case that that deputy had, that should all either be on tape with communications or via his computer in his cruiser.

SANCHEZ: We have the announcement, as it's made by officials there in Central Florida, the moment that they were ready to announce for the first time -- as you and I have been talking about for the last couple of days...

BROOKS: Yes.

SANCHEZ: ...that this is, in fact, Caylee's remains.

I want you to listen to that now. We'll take a good chunk of it so you can get a sense of what's going on and then we'll bring our guests in on the other side.

Let's go ahead and take that, Rog.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

DR. JAN GARAVAGLIA, ORANGE COUNTY MEDICAL EXAMINER: With regret, I am here to inform you that the skeletal remains found on December 11th are those of the missing toddler, Caylee Anthony.

As our usual protocol, the next of kin has been notified prior to making this information public. This identification was made by nuclear DNA taken from a portion of the remains and compared to a known profile of Caylee Anthony. The DNA analysis was performed by the FBI lab in Quantico, Virginia. Except for the bone specimen used for the DNA, which has since been returned to my morgue, the remains have been maintain and analyzed at the District 9 Morgue here in Orlando.

These have been analyzed by myself, my deputy chief medical examiner and two forensic anthropologists -- one from the University of Florida and one from the University of Central Florida.

My examination of the body and evidence is complete, barring no further bones being found. And the anthropological exam will be finished up shortly.

The remains are completely skeletonized, with no visible soft tissue present and no ante-mortem trauma evident, meaning that there was no trauma to the bones prior to death.

Toxicology testing is still to be completed on the bone and hair. While this analysis may prove to be informative, it will be difficult to interpret levels from these specimens and thus will not be definitive in helping determine the cause of death.

The manner of death, though, is an opinion based on available information, including examination of the body, information from the scene, as well as circumstantial evidence. Based on all of this, the manner of death in this case is homicide. The cause of death will be listed as homicide by undetermined means.

Should other pertinent information become available...

SANCHEZ: ...homicide by undetermined means.

I want to start off with Pamela Bethel. You're a former prosecutor. You would know how important something like this is.

And many would ask, look, Pamela, Prosecutor Bethel, she -- the mother has already been charged with first degree murder linked to her daughter's disappearance.

How does this change the case?

BETHEL: I don't think it changes the case. Well, you know, but -- to put on my former prosecutor hat, I think it strengthens the case. I mean, clearly, there was a death.

SANCHEZ: How much?

BETHEL: Clearly...

SANCHEZ: How much?

BETHEL: Well -- well, I mean, do you want me to go into percentages?

SANCHEZ: Yes. (INAUDIBLE). You're going to go to court and stand in front of a jury and say...

BETHEL: OK...

SANCHEZ: ...I'm charging this woman with murder, but I can't find the person she murdered.

BETHEL: Right. So it...

SANCHEZ: How tough is it to beat it?

BETHEL: So it actually increased it. But everybody believed -- I mean, the common opinion was that the mother knew and had done something to this child.

Now, you have the body. And you're clear that the child was killed. I guess it increases it 30 -- 30 percent, OK. You've got a better case.

But they had already charged her. They thought they had a strong case. You don't charge in a murder case until you feel you have a strong case, because there's no statute of limitations. You can charge it whenever you feel the case is coming together.

SANCHEZ: Ashleigh Banfield, how important is this?

You've been looking at this case for how long now?

(AUDIO GAP)

SANCHEZ: Well, really, we've lost Ashleigh Banfield.

I want to go to Larry Kobilinsky.

Now, he's our forensics guy. And he's also a consultant for the defense.

Larry, just let me ask you, being close to some of these, will be -- will this be seen as a blow to this defense team, to Casey Anthony, who's in jail right now, charged with the death of her own daughter?

DR. LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSICS EXPERT, ANTHONY DEFENSE TEAM: Well, the fact is, Rick, that the prosecution, the medical examiner, Dr. G. was unable to determine cause of death and probably will not be able to establish that. I don't think that that is absolutely required to make this case for the prosecution. They also don't...

SANCHEZ: Let me just -- Let me just stop you there.

KOBILINSKY: Yes. Sure.

SANCHEZ: Did that surprise you?

I mean, look, she went through a couple of things. She said the bones -- no obvious signs of trauma. Most of them are very small, hard to read anything. We had to rely on DNA to be able to come to any conclusions at all. And as far as toxicology is concerned, which would tell us whether there was any kind of poisoning or anything like that, nothing -- nothing reliable.

KOBILINSKY: Well, yes, Rick...

SANCHEZ: So what have we got?

KOBILINSKY: I think the problem is there's no soft tissue. This is a completely skeletonized, disarticulated skeleton. There's hair and sometimes that is helpful, provided that whatever the chemical is -- let's say, presumably, that caused death -- if that was used over a period of time, that might be seen in hair. But if there's an acute death, you won't see it in hair. You probably won't see it in a skeleton. And without the soft tissue, they probably will not be able to find the cause of death nor will they have the time of death. And to the defense, I think the time of death is rather crucial.

SANCHEZ: So she's going to say...

BROOKS: What would...

SANCHEZ: ...go ahead, I didn't do this, somebody else did.

Go ahead.

BROOKS: Right. Yes, Koby, Mike Brooks.

I just want to ask you, she said that they have some bone and still a piece of hair.

Now, would they be a bit later to find any traces, possibly, of chloroform -- that we were talking about is involved in this case -- would they be able to find it in that bone or in that hair?

KOBILINSKY: Well, again, Mike, I think the answer is probably no. And if you heard the other thing she said about levels -- detecting of levels of drugs and chloroform -- remember, as you know, that in a body that's decomposing, chloroform will be produced in certain amounts during the early stages of decomposition. This is a very late stage decomposition.

I just think they will -- the tox report will not come back conclusive. It will not come back with any defining information. And, again, it's not the tox so much as it is the time of death, because that, I think, is a crucial factor.

When was that body dropped at that scene? Did it happen way back six months ago? Did it happen three months?

That is really a key question.

And had these tips been followed, if there was something found early on, there would have been a lot more information. There might have been soft tissue and there might be very critical information that could have been looked at.

SANCHEZ: So what we really are looking at -- I mean, you know, we were talking about -- for those of you joining us now, we're covering two developing news story.

Rod Blagojevich speaks for the very first time, says his case is essentially based on innuendo and people who are out to get him, says he's going to fight this thing all the way through.

At the same time, we're considering now the case of Casey Anthony, who a lot of people all over the nation have followed. Pamela Bethel, let me bring you into this case, because, you know, it's interesting. I doubt there has ever been a story, at least in the last four or five years, that has gotten so much publicity. It's because, one would think, it's a young mother who is accused of killing her own child -- her own flesh and blood -- in this case.

Can this woman get a fair trial in the State of Florida?

BETHEL: Well, there's a presumption that she can get a fair trial somewhere in the State of Florida. Look, we have notoriety around a lot of crimes that are of interest to the public. But there's a legal presumption that at some point and with certain restrictions imposed by the judge, if necessary, a person can get a fair trial.

Look, the fact of a mother allegedly killing her child is abhorrent to our culture. I mean -- I mean the mother is the last protectorate or protector of the child so...

SANCHEZ: Which is what makes -- which is what's made this story...

BETHEL: Absolutely...

SANCHEZ: ...really fly off of the charts, as some would say.

BETHEL: Absolutely. Absolutely.

SANCHEZ: So what's the -- so here's the question. What's -- Mike Brooks, what is left -- if she's going to argue, yes, you found my child, but I didn't kill her. You do have her lying repeatedly. As a matter of fact, I made a list today as I was looking into this story.

BROOKS: You know, Rick, if her mouth is moving,

SANCHEZ: She lied about -- go ahead.

BROOKS: If her mouth is moving, she's lying.

SANCHEZ: But a lot of people...

BROOKS: All the way through.

SANCHEZ: ...who don't know, she lied about a fictitious baby- sitter she'd given the daughter to.

BROOKS: (INAUDIBLE).

SANCHEZ: The daughter disappeared a month before she apparently gave the information up. Made up a story about doing her own investigation. Has lied repeatedly. But it's not illegal to lie. It's illegal to kill somebody.

BROOKS: Right.

SANCHEZ: Do they have the goods to prove the latter? BROOKS: There's a lot of evidence, Rick, that we have not heard about yet. And, you know, as the medical examiner said, she ruled it as homicide and then she said it was her opinion because of the examination of the body, information from the scene and circumstantial evidence.

There's a lot of evidence, there's a lot of statements. There is a witness list of 82 people that they took statements from. We don't know what they said. There's a lot that we're not -- that we're not hearing for this case -- in this homicide case.

SANCHEZ: What...

BROOKS: But the question is, will the death penalty be back on the table?

Will they be able to prove an aggravated circumstance?

That will be the -- that will be the case.

SANCHEZ: There's a question here about the grandparents, as well, George and Cindy.

BROOKS: Right.

SANCHEZ: It turns out the property they own is where they found the remains -- or right next to it. And a lot of people are asking a lot of questions.

You know the story. We want to be fair to them -- or as fair as we can possibly be.

BROOKS: Sure.

SANCHEZ: We'll pick that up with you and Ashleigh Banfield when we come back. And, again, we'll update the story of Rod Blagojevich, the governor of Illinois. And your comments, as well, as he speaks for the very first time.

Stay with us with. Lots going on and a lot of moving parts.

I'm Rick Sanchez. We'll right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: And we welcome you back.

Three breaking stories that we're following during this hour. And now we're getting another.

Take a look at this video. This is coming in from KCPO. This is in Washington State. It's a Department of Transportation picture. And, yes, what you see there -- I'm looking at it with you, folks -- is a bus, maybe two of them, actually. And one of them seems to actually be overhanging that part of the freeway.

Mike Brooks here looking at this with me.

BROOKS: It sure does.

SANCHEZ: You know, you don't know how precarious that situation is because you don't know where the weight distribution is on a bus like that.

But that thing can -- I hope they're doing something to hold the back end, right?

BROOKS: Yes, that engine -- what firefighters and rescue personnel are seeing, they're going to try to stabilize that bus the best they can.

Keep in mind, I used to be an assistant fire chief out in Fairfax, Virginia.

But they'll try to stabilize that, try to treat the injured, if there any -- anyone injured on that bus and try to perform and try to get that bus back.

But it looks like right now, Rick, that the public officials there don't feel that it's in too much danger, otherwise they would have shut this whole highway down.

SANCHEZ: Well, let me tell you what we're getting right now. We're getting information these are two charter buses and that the buses were involved in an accident themselves.

For those of you familiar with this area here in Seattle, it's on Melrose and East Thomas on Capitol Hill. We don't know at this point if anyone has been injured. We're trying to get reports out of there to see if we can talk to some of the officials, see if they can give us some information.

There is heavy -- pardon me -- heavy rescue response in the area. This is the northbound portion of I-5. And, yes, that part of the freeway, we're now being told, has been blocked as a result of this.

How does something like this happen?

BROOKS: You know, it looks like there might have been some inclement weather there. You don't know. I mean it looks like that -- not that wide of a street that they were on over the top of this freeway, Rick.

But, you know, we saw an accident a number of years ago here in Atlanta where a bus went over and then fell -- went over an exit ramp and fell down onto the interstate. But we don't know exactly what the cause of this accident is right now.

SANCHEZ: Well, it's hanging over the side. By the way, that's KCPQ, for those of you wondering where that video was coming from. We always try and treat our affiliates fairly for helping us out in a situation like this. Let's go back now to the other story that we've been following for you. And that's the breaking news in the Caylee Anthony case, which also came after the breaking news out of Illinois that Rod Blagojevich is speaking for the very first time to reporters. You saw it right here as it happened. And, interestingly enough, our own Susan Roesgen told us moments ago that it was a real quiet in that room when he came out and said that, because he essentially said that he's perfectly innocent. He's going to fight this thing. And it's other people. And he essentially tried to, well, blame it on them -- externalize the situation.

And then there was this story that, as you probably know, the story that so many people have been following in the media about Caylee Anthony. Officials came out today in Central Florida and announced that those are, in fact, Caylee Anthony's remains. As her mother, Casey Anthony, charged with her murder, awaits this case in jail.

But then there are the grandparents, who have appeared on Larry King and who live next to the property where the bones were found that have now been confirmed.

Is that a problem for them? Is that a problem for the grandparents, for George and Cindy?

I'll take that to you -- Mike.

BROOKS: You know, they are grandparents. They've been -- early on, you know, we heard Cindy, when she first called the police back on July 15th and said it smells like there was a dead body in the damn car.

SANCHEZ: Hold on, we've got -- I think we've got -- we've got Ashleigh in now.

Have we been able to make the connection with Ashleigh?

Boy, as hard as we've been trying...

BROOKS: There she is.

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, ANCHOR, "IN SESSION": I'm here.

SANCHEZ: We were trying to get Brooks and Banfield back together again.

BANFIELD: Hi, Rick.

Can you hear me?

SANCHEZ: Yes. You've been watching what we've been talking about.

BANFIELD: Yes.

SANCHEZ: I imagine you're antsy to get in and you have a lot to say. Go ahead. I'm not even going to make...

BANFIELD: Well, I...

SANCHEZ: ...pose a question to you.

BANFIELD: I just want to add -- I want to add something to the reporter here. And that is that Casey Anthony was informed about these -- this positive identification 15 minutes before the rest of us were. The jail pastor was the one who broke the news to her. Her attorney was on site, Jose Baez.

However, here's a really interesting development. Her family pastor went to the prison, as well -- went to the jail, as well, at the top of the hour, when the rest of us were all learning of this. And Casey Anthony refused to see that family pastor.

No other comments will be made from the jail with regard to how she took the news. They're not going to release any of that.

I'm not sure that even Jose Baez, that attorney, was on site with her, as opposed to in the jail but not present with her when that news was broken to her.

But Casey has been told about this, as well as Cindy Anthony. The sheriff's department has made contact with Cindy Anthony, as well, before the rest of us all found out.

SANCHEZ: All right. Ashleigh Banfield is with us now.

Larry Kobilinsky is still with us, a forensics expert.

Pamela Bethel, who's an expert on the law as a prosecutor, and, on the other side, as a defense attorney.

We've got Mike Brooks. And now we've got Wolf Blitzer.

I want to bring Wolf Blitzer in now to talk about this Blagojevich statement that some people are finding stunning -- based on nothing else, his comportment throughout this -- Wolf, I imagine you guys are going to be talking about that an awful lot.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, we're going to have all that, Rick.

And as your viewers already know, we rarely hear anything like the fighting words we heard from the governor of Illinois. We're following his defiance against calls for his resignation and his determination to beat back the accusations against him.

Here's the question -- what will happen now?

We're all over this story in "THE SITUATION ROOM."

And drowning automakers are thrown a lifeline. Now that the president has acted, what does the next president think about all of this? And what do the commerce secretary and the governor of Michigan think?

They're both here in "THE SITUATION ROOM," as well.

And Barack Obama adds to his economic team then makes an audacious promise. It involves your money. Can he deliver?

Rick, we've got a lot coming up right here in "THE SITUATION ROOM."

SANCHEZ: And a lot going on here. A hot show for you.

And we're trying to put this one together, as well.

Back to Ashleigh Banfield. Suddenly, this man shows up. His name is Roy Kronk. Nobody had found him or heard of him before. Apparently, he's a meter reader. He holds a news conference and said I did everything I could do as a citizen, I called the police three times.

BANFIELD: Yes. This is a big thing for the defense attorney for Casey Anthony, because at trial, they can say, are you kidding?

Even the sheriffs have to review their own sheriffs deputies during all of this? We have a lot to go with here -- bad cops. Remember O.J., how O.J. got through with bad policing? That's one of these things that will be a boon to the defense attorneys...

SANCHEZ: Are you saying...

BANFIELD: ...not to mention there's no...

SANCHEZ: Is...

BANFIELD: ...there's no marks on this skeletal remains that show trauma.

SANCHEZ: But hold on a minute.

Are you guys telling me that -- and let he take this to you. You've been a cop.

BROOKS: Yes.

SANCHEZ: You've worked investigations like this. Is there a possibility that if they had responded appropriately back in August, this case would have been solved then?

BROOKS: There is a good possibility of that. And that's why they're going to perform an administrative review. The sheriff says that, you know, he (INAUDIBLE)...

SANCHEZ: Well, he called them to the area and that's the area where they found the bones now.

BROOKS: Exactly. The first... SANCHEZ: Why didn't they find them back in August?

BROOKS: Well, that's what -- that -- I want to know what action that deputy took on August 13th when he met with Mr. Kronk there.

Did Mr. Kronk take him over and show him where it was? Did he show him the area? Did that deputy -- did he do everything that he could at that time?

Because you heard what -- you heard what Koby said. Back four months ago, there's a possibility there could have been tissue on that particular -- on the skeleton there.

SANCHEZ: Pamela Bethel, I want to bring you into this. Knowing what you now know about these police officers, and if there are serious questions about this here, do you expect the defense attorneys will bring these questions up, as well, when they try their case?

Did you hear me, Pamela?

BETHEL: Well, of course. Of course, they are going to try to use it. I mean...

SANCHEZ: I mean to the point where they'll say these police officers couldn't even deal with the information they were given back in August, why should we believe them now that they've come up with this conclusion that my client killed her?

BETHEL: Absolutely. I mean that's what they're going to say. That is certainly a boon to the defense.

But, look, there are other things that -- I mean it is clear that she was murdered. So the question then becomes how else can you describe or explain how you this little girl was murdered?

And I think that the evidence certainly points strongly toward that mother. And the fact that she lied -- no, it is not a crime to lie. But when you are -- but when a prosecution has a circumstantial case and you've got someone that should have the loyalty and love of that child lying about all those things that are incident or related to the death, it certainly makes the prosecutors' circumstantial case seem a lot stronger.

SANCHEZ: Is it really...

BANFIELD: And it's more than circumstantial evidence now.

SANCHEZ: Is it really circumstantial, though?

Go ahead.

BANFIELD: Well, there's a heck of a lot more...

SANCHEZ: That's all. I was just going to ask you, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: ...than circumstantial evidence now, Rick. If that duct tape actually proves to be true, that can give you a wealth of a case. That could be the linchpin in this case.

If the skeleton doesn't tell us anything -- and we're still waiting on the toxicology and the anthropology time line. But if that other evidence that's found along with that skeleton proves to be fruitful in information, that can be the case...

SANCHEZ: What about the...

BANFIELD: (INAUDIBLE).

SANCHEZ: What about the air they took from the trunk of the car that proves that there was a dead body there?

What about...

(CROSSTALK)

BETHEL: All of that is circumstantial.

(CROSSTALK)

BETHEL: All of...

SANCHEZ: That's also

BETHEL: All of that is circumstantial. But it's good circumstantial.

SANCHEZ: Right.

BETHEL: The fact that it's circumstantial -- direct, no one saw the mother shoot the child. That's direct. No one witnessed the actual incident. Everything else is deemed circumstantial. The question then becomes the quality of the circumstantial evidence.

BROOKS: And there's a...

BETHEL: And I strongly agree that is strong. BROOKS: And there's a witnesses list with 82 witnesses for the prosecution, Rick. We don't know what's included in all those statements.

BETHEL: But I don't think we...

BROOKS: And there's a lot of evidence that we have not heard of yet.

BETHEL: Yes.

BANFIELD: Amen.

BETHEL: But I don't think we -- I think we can conclude that they don't have anyone that said that they saw anyone kill this child, including the mother.

SANCHEZ: All right... BETHEL: I think that's a safe assumption.

SANCHEZ: Let's leave it at that.

A lot of breaking news throughout this hour. And we've been trying to grab it everywhere we can and bring it to you as it happens.

I want to give my thanks to Ashleigh Banfield. We lost you there for a moment, but I'm so glad that you came back.

BANFIELD: Thanks, Rick.

SANCHEZ: Larry Kobilinsky was with us.

Pamela Bethel, thank you so much for bringing us your insight in this.

BETHEL: You're welcome.

SANCHEZ: And, of course, Mike Brooks.

BROOKS: Thank you.

SANCHEZ: The breaking news has not just been on this front, but also on the political front.

Wolf Blitzer is coming up now. He's going to take you through what's going on with the case of Rod Blagojevich.

Here now to Washington, "THE SITUATION ROOM" and my colleague, Wolf Blitzer.

BLITZER: Rick, thanks very much.