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Israel Planning Ground Assault on Gaza?; Friday Satire
Aired January 02, 2009 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Jim Clancy is joining us now from CNN International, as well.
Apparently, he has something to say to Barack Obama, doesn't he?
JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, he does.
He said, Mr. Obama, your beginning is not good. You got involved and you had a statement regarding the issue of Mumbai, meaning the terror attacks there, but you did not get involved and say anything about the enemy's crime against Gaza. Enough of your double standards.
So, he's calling -- Hamas would like to see everybody come out and press for Israel to stop its assault there.
SANCHEZ: He was talking for a long time, probably about 40 minutes or so. We're going to be getting more of that reaction in just a little bit.
Let me take you through a couple of things. Let me set the scene for you about what is going on right now. And, as we do so, we have got a series of pictures that we probably could show you as well. The question is are we on the verge right now of a ground assault by Israel into Gaza?
And this that you are looking at is a fuel dump that was targeted. This is significant, because this has taken out much of what is described as the energy grid for the area. That is why if you were to look at a live picture right now of Hamas -- or -- pardon me -- of Gaza, what you would see is total darkness. Hard to see any lights on in the area. That is significant as well.
We are going to be talking -- in fact, let's do that. Let's stop what we are doing real quick. I'm just to ask -- I want to ask and bring in General Russel Honore, who is with us as well.
General, thanks so much for being with us.
When you see the power being taken out, what does that usually tell you?
LIEUTENANT GENERAL RUSSEL HONORE (RET.), CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, they are trying to turn the lights out, trying to create more disruption of the population and the ability of Hamas to be able to operate. The second thing you might have here, this might be a part of collateral damage, because the Israelis from day one could have turned the lights out. So you either have two things going on. It's an escalation or it could be a part of collateral damage.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Does it make us a little closer to what could be a ground assault?
HONORE: It is an indicator.
SANCHEZ: But not necessarily a certainty? It doesn't make it a certainty?
HONORE: That is correct. It is adding more pressure on the government, which is Hamas, to stop shooting missiles, which is what the Israelis have asked for.
SANCHEZ: All right. Israelis are also allowing 284 non- Palestinians to leave. Is that a sign of an impending attack? Certainly a question worth asking.
We heard from the Secretary of State Rice earlier today, who blamed Hamas, while backing Israel, but she took no questions from reporters. And now we have also heard that Mahmoud Abbas, head of the Palestinian Authority, is on his way to New York. He's going to be talking to the Security Council.
Gentlemen here, hang with me for just a moment. I want to bring in now Zbigniew Brzezinski, former national security adviser. By the way, if you think that of Zbigniew Brzezinski's past, he is one of the few who has ever been able to broker a triumph led by the United States between the Israelis and the Arabs, known obviously as the Camp David accords back in the mid to late 1970s. He is going to be joining us in just a little bit. I understand we have got some kind of issues with that.
Let's go back to you, Jim. What are we hearing on the ground there today in Gaza?
CLANCY: Well, it's been a very difficult day. Israel would appear to be -- yesterday they hit all kinds of Hamas houses. The civilian casualty toll has spiked in the last 48 hours. We are told by Palestinian sources 31 people killed. Now, of those, 19 were children, six were women. So, 25 out of 31 casualties were civilians.
As you have noted the lights are out, it is dark, there's a food shortage, a fuel shortage, there are no lights on at all in Gaza at this hour.
SANCHEZ: Well, let's put those things together, if we can. I was having this conversation with Fred just a moment ago. And I am glad you are here, General.
You have taken into account the fact that Condoleezza Rice comes out today and makes this statement, a very terse statement at least in terms of how she treated the Hamas, takes no questions from reporters, looks almost a little anxiety-riddled at the time. And then we hear the situation with them taking out part of the power grid through the fuel. And now we hear that they have asked foreign nationals, non- Palestinians, to leave, or given them permission to do so.
Put those three things together and what do you have?
HONORE: I think it is a continuation of adding pressure to trying to get the missiles to stop, to try and bring the people on both sides to stop.
But Israel is on the offensive. And Hamas is on the defense. And in this case, Israel has got the hand to cut that southern border or cut the roads. They already own the sea and they own the air. The open gate now is the lines of communications or logistics lines that come from the southern tip of Gaza.
And if they cut that, again, it is more pressure. But I don't see this as a ground assault to reoccupy all of Gaza. They are going in for limited objectives is what I suspect.
SANCHEZ: You are the perfect person to talk about this, so we are going to pick up this conversation in a moment.
Speaking in terms of if there were to be ground assault, how do you maneuver the tanks and the troops in an area that is probably as densely populated as any place in the world?
but, before we do that, Zbigniew Brzezinski is good enough to join us now. I understand we have reestablished communication with him.
Mr. Brzezinski, thanks so much for being with us, sir.
ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: It's good to be with you.
SANCHEZ: Tense times. Does your experience tell you given the signs that you have seen that Israel will in fact move in with a ground assault?
BRZEZINSKI: I can't predict that. I think the generals and others are better at this than I.
SANCHEZ: Let me ask you this. If they do go in, and let's suppose that they take out the leadership of Hamas, including, for example, Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, what do you do? Does that leave the Israelis then in control of an area that now they are going to have to manage?
BRZEZINSKI: Look, I think from the standpoint of the United States, we have to take a wider view of this issue.
The fact of the matter is that this conflict has now been going on for 40 years. And we could spend days arguing as to who is more at fault, but the key point to bear in mind is that, left to themselves, the parties will never, will never resolve this problem themselves.
SANCHEZ: Well, let me ask you this, sir.
(CROSSTALK)
BRZEZINSKI: They need to be helped. They need to be helped from the outside.
SANCHEZ: Let me ask you this, sir. How has this administration handled this Middle East conflict in your estimation?
BRZEZINSKI: (INAUDIBLE)
SANCHEZ: I think we are losing you, but I think what I heard you say is that they have handled it badly? All right. We are going to try and get him back.
That is the beginning of the underpinnings of what is a very important conversation.
Jim, you have been talking to people, correspondents placed throughout the world so far. What is the international community saying or doing at this point?
CLANCY: Well, you know, you have got a lot of things going on. You have Sarkozy, the French president, on his way to Gaza, or on his way at least to Israel, next week. The Turks are negotiating. The Norwegians are negotiating. The European Union is involved.
And we know that Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas is on his way to New York. This is going to go to the Security Council representing, what, seven foreign ministers of Arab countries. We are going to see the Security Council called upon to come up with some kind of a cease-fire. The U.S. is going to be playing a huge role here. They are going to be pressuring for some kind of a monitoring activity.
They are all going to be pushing, including the Arabs, for a reduction in Hamas' sway if you will there in Gaza. Fatah, the Palestinian Authority president hoping go back in there and control the border, reopen Rafah, release some of the pressure.
But it's going to mean monitors are there. It's going to mean there's some kind of other entity on the ground -- lessons learned from Lebanon.
SANCHEZ: Let's do this. Let's take a break. I want to see if we can get Mr. Brezhnev -- I mean, Mr. Zbigniew Brzezinski on in just a little, so we can go through some of the -- because remember all week, we have been talking about the situation from the standpoint of Palestinians and the Israelis.
Well, what about the United States? What is our role? What should we do? And what have we done perhaps right or wrong? And he is the perfect guest to talk about this because he is one who was intimately involved in the Camp David accords. We are going to be joined in just a little bit I understand by one of our correspondents there on the ground. Nic Robertson is going to be filing a report and talking to us live. He is Ashkelon, ducking under cars at some points because of some of these Katyusha rockets that have been fired into the area.
All this set up for you as we take you through this night that a lot of folks are thinking could actually be the beginning of a ground assault, though not yet confirmed, and obviously, your reaction as well on Twitter, Facebook and MySpace. Stay with us. We are coming right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: All right, here's what we're doing. We have got three parts of this story that we're going to be covering, the military aspect if there is in fact a ground assault.
And for that we have one of the best that can possibly talk about it, and that is the general who is just here to my left who is going to be joining us in just a little bit. Also, one of the best foreign correspondents who has ever covered that turf, Jim Clancy, is over here to my right. And then to cover the diplomatic part of this story, which is certainly as important as anything right now, once again we have on the phone Zbigniew Brzezinski.
The last question I had asked the former national security adviser is has this administration handled the Middle East well or perhaps not so well? You broke up at the time, Mr. Brzezinski, but I think what you said is not well.
BRZEZINSKI: Yes, I said it has handled it badly.
The Middle East, when President Bush assumed office, was closer to peace by far than it is today.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Let me interrupt -- go ahead. I'm sorry, sir.
BRZEZINSKI: But I hope the international community and particularly the United States makes a serious renewed effort to move towards peace. And that effort has to recognize the fact that after 40 years of conflict, the two parties, themselves, will never resolve it.
It has to be helped from the outside. And we have to use this crisis as a sort of leverage, as a source of leverage for resolution of the problem, but that demands leadership from the West, including from the United States. And it is not forthcoming.
SANCHEZ: Paul Wolfowitz told us at the outset of the Iraqi engagement that that engagement in Iraq would in fact democratize part of the region and stabilize the Middle East. How wrong was he?
BRZEZINSKI: Totally. The Hamas electoral victory was in effect the implementation of that point of view. I think we pushed the Palestinians into a premature election, particularly in Gaza, which then resulted in a much more radical part of the Palestinian leadership coming to power.
This conflict will further radicalize the Palestinians and make the peace process even more difficult, not to mention -- not to mention the very tragic human dimension of the conflict.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Let me ask you a question that I have always wanted to ask you, given that you have been in this situation before. If we take the premise that we have spent, I suppose, an estimated $1 trillion in the Iraq engagement, if you, sir, were in charge, and I said you could take that trillion dollars and use it however you would like, but try and see if you could settle the problem in the Middle East by bringing some kind of resolution between the Israelis and the Palestinians, how would you have used it?
BRZEZINSKI: Well, first of all, I wouldn't have started a war in Iraq, which vastly increased the influence of Iran in the region and strengthened the radicals.
But leaving money aside, the fact is that we need to take the initiative in pushing the peace process forward. If we, supported the international community as a whole, by the religious forces in the world, were to come forth with at least the outline of a peace settlement, and if we made it reasonably fair to both sides, I think we could galvanize political forces among the Israelis and the Palestinians towards peace.
SANCHEZ: All right, specifically then, answer this question, if you would, Mr. Brzezinski. We got reports today that Barack Obama has -- that the Palestinians have reached out to Barack Obama, but that, apparently, he has not -- let me look at my report -- that the Israelis have reached out to Barack Obama -- I misspoke -- but he has not responded.
Is he in a position to respond now? And, if not, how should he respond when he actually gets into office after the inauguration?
BRZEZINSKI: I think we have to honor the fact that we have one president at a time. And we cannot conduct two different foreign policies.
The excerpt you ran with Secretary Rice clearly shows that the U.S. policy right now is completely bankrupt. We will have to make a fresh start, but we can only do that when the new president is in office. And, at that time, with the support of the international community, we should make more of an effort to help the Israelis and the Palestinians move towards peace. And that means taking concrete initiatives regarding at least the general outlines of an equitable peace settlement.
SANCHEZ: Zbigniew Brzezinski, we thank you, sir, for taking time out during the holidays to join and share your perspective on something you certainly have a lot of firsthand experience with, sir.
BRZEZINSKI: Well, good to be with you. You are rendering a public service in raising these issues and in discussing them seriously.
SANCHEZ: Thank you, sir. We appreciate it.
By the way, we have got another report we would like to show you now. This is Nic Robertson, who has filed this report for us from the perspective of what it is like right now to be an average person in Gaza trying to survive day-to-day. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Nimar (ph) rocks her baby to sleep by candlelight. Her two- story house in Gaza has been without electricity since Israel's attacks began five days ago.
They use mobile phones to light their way, and the situation is getting worse. Israeli missiles destroyed the wood, the glass. This is the children's bedroom, she explains. The missiles hit a nearby mosque.
Her family is better off than most of Gaza's 1.5 million residents, but their plight is typical. The violence is traumatizing them. Her husband, Narhad (ph), an accountant, explains, you hear the ambulances and the sirens and it is very difficult psychologically for any human knowing there are people who are injured or killed.
His sister adds her fears. "We live in horror," she says. "We are scared for our children. There is no security."
Days of missile strikes that Israel says are necessary to stop Hamas rockets that are killing Israeli civilians, and, in Gaza, fear is spreading, this apartment badly damaged during the attack.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were unable to know exactly what was there, other than only destruction. And our only -- the only task we were just locking in is to take care of our kids.
ROBERTSON: Among Israel's most recent targets, a mosque they say was used to store rockets. In this Israeli Defense Force video of the attack, secondary explosions after the missile's impact they say confirm its use as a Hamas ammunitions dump.
Other targets include Hamas' leaders, the prime minister's office destroyed. Hours later, he was on TV for the first time since the start of Israel's operation against his militants.
ISMAIL HANIYEH, HAMAS LEADER (through translator): The aggression must stop. The crossings must open and the blockade made be lifted, and then we can talk about all other issues.
ROBERTSON: He goes on the claim the war will be a tipping point, but right now for the majority of Gaza's residents, there is only suffering.
"How can I take just one bag of bread?" this man complains. "There are seven in my family. This is just one meal. I have to wait until tomorrow to get more."
With bread, as with much else, the balance is still firmly tilted towards Israel, 93 trucks of much-needed food and medicine allowed into Gaza. For all but the most badly wounded, there is no way out. This young Palestinian boy injured by a Hamas rocket being taken to a hospital in Israel.
(on camera): Until now, Israeli security forces have been keeping journalists out of Gaza, even moving them on when they are close to the troops camped near the border. The conflict is becoming increasingly difficult to cover. And this report was only possible with the help of trusted colleagues inside Gaza.
Nic Robertson, CNN, Jerusalem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: And we're going to have Nic standing by in just a little bit. Here is there for us now.
By the way, as we introduce Nic, can we get that picture up from Gaza City? That is from Ramadan TV, I understand. It looks pretty dark. You can see a little bit of light in the background.
Hey, Nic, as we look at this picture, it's, what, 10:00 p.m. or 10:00 p.m.-plus there now in that area. What is that expectation? What are you hearing in Israel that is the expectation as to whether or not there will be a ground assault?
ROBERTSON: You know, it is the big debating point right now here, Rick. And some people are saying, well, is it really going to happen or is this just sort of more psychological pressure on the Hamas leadership?
Because, after all, we have seen the Israeli air force going after the Hamas leaders in their houses on the ground and even killing some of them, so is this psychological pressure on the Hamas leadership to cave into Israel's demands that they stop these rockets or is it for real? Are they really going to have to go in?
So no one is really sure, but certainly the troops seem to be in place for it.
SANCHEZ: Speaking of rockets, you have been in Ashkelon for part of this day. I know you have been moving around an awful lot. Are we still seeing the response from the other side? Are we still seeing Hamas or militant rockets being fired as far as Ashkelon?
ROBERTSON: Well, sure.
This house right behind me took a missile through the roof about eight hours ago. It was one of Hamas' largest rockets, a Grad. And the family was only safe because the siren went off in the town. They ran to the shelter in the basement of the building. And the missile crashed through the roof, exploded the roof, and destroyed -- their house is unlivable. We were in there earlier on with the family.
They're shaken. They're happy to be alive. They don't care so much that they have lost their property, but they are really lucky. They had an incredibly lucky escape. And if it was not for that air raid warning, they could have been a lot worse off tonight, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Nic Robertson, one of the best at covering this type of story, so glad that we have him there following this situation for us.
Jim, if it happens -- and I think part of the questions that we are going to be following tonight, General, is, if they go in, how do they get back out?
CLANCY: Well, the same way they came in. Don't worry. They will have thought that through.
The Israeli military is going to make a move here. They're going to have limited objections. General Honore is right on the spot there. You look at those tunnels, they have to cut off the supply of these arms coming in.
SANCHEZ: But, look, we're talking about troops and tanks going into a city. Don't you create such an infrastructure problem that it is hard to get out without causing more damage than you expected to cause? You are a military man. Can you do it, strategically?
HONORE: Well, there is something going here for the Israelis. They know this terrain. This is probably second- or third-generation soldiers fighting on that same ground.
The other thing is, they can see in that terrain.
SANCHEZ: That's a great point, by the way.
HONORE: Their capability with UAVs is a lot different than it was in the '67 war, the ability to use precision airstrikes.
Now a laser-guided bomb going into a community and dropping it on a target to kill a key leader is going to create some collateral damage, up to 250 meters away. Now, that is the war you have seen so far. The ground war...
SANCHEZ: That is the one I'm interested in.
(CROSSTALK)
HONORE: And the Israelis have not used their artillery. Or they're not using MLRs, or multiple rocket launchers, nor have they used their mortars. I think they have been trying to target leadership.
SANCHEZ: Well, hold on. I am going to hold you for just a moment, because we have to hit a break, but take us through that when we come back, because I think a lot people are interested in knowing how do you actually facilitate something like this.
We will get into that part of the equation, as well as the story developing right here with AirTran and an Indian family that was told they had to get off the plane. Oops. Sounds like a mistake. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez here in the world headquarters of CNN.
There is a lot of information that is coming into us that we are going to have to take you through, but we also want to include some of your reaction. This is an interactive show. We like to let you have a say in what is going on.
So, let's do that real quick if we could start.
Let's start with Facebook, Johnny B. Goode, if we could. This is Shenna. She is watching our newscast right now as are so many people from all over the country. The reaction has been huge thus far.
"Whoever is right and whoever is wrong, war still spills a lot of innocent blood. Is it really worth it?"
You know, General, I will be interested in getting your perspective on that a little bit later on. I know we don't have time to get into it now.
Stephanie is also watching. She says, "Forty years of war???" -- with three question marks. "That is crazy."
Let's go over to our Twitter board, if we possibly can. Look at what Smokey is saying. He is watching, too. He says: "Invading Iraq just threw gas on the fire of the already hated country of Israel. What was our leaders thinking?" Obviously, a little bit of spelling and grammatical issues there, with a little syntax, but, nonetheless, we get the gist of what it is he was trying to say.
I got a picture I want to show you now before we do anything else. Take a look at this. You know these Somali pirates we have been telling you so much about over in the Gulf of Aden? Look at that. A whole bunch of them were captured today. That is the actual picture of the surrendered.
It was a French force that came in and captured them. And there have been already been four pirate attacks in 2009 and we are only into -- not even the completion of the second day yet. But here is an interesting part of this question. The French forces returned them to Somali officials, which begs the question, when will they be out there pirating again?
CLANCY: As soon as they get a boat.
SANCHEZ: Exactly. New information coming to us on Gaza, we're going to have that for you. Again, the conversation now switches to the possibility of a ground assault, and that is why we have got these two gentlemen here who are going to be joining us to take us through the risks, the pitfalls and what could possibly happen when this occurs or I suppose I should say if this occurs later on tonight or tomorrow.
Stay with us. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: And we welcome you back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
All right, let's be smart about this if we can now, because if there is in fact an inevitability or even just a possibility that there is going to be a ground assault into Gaza some time in the near future, we need to kind of understand the region, geographically, if nothing else.
And that is why we have these two gentlemen who are going to be joining us in this discussion.
Before we do anything, take a look. General, you specifically, take a look at the Google Earth map. Let's fly this thing in. You, too, Jim. Take a look at this, and you will see the bottom line there. See that yellow line there? There is the Gaza. Now let's go into the Gaza Strip, and you will see as we go in real tight exactly just how incredibly densely populated this area is.
That is not the one I was actually thinking we were going to see earlier, where you actually can see the houses. But -- oh, do you have that one, Chris? Yes, here we go. Let's take a look at the second one now.
Look at -- for those of you at home, watch this picture. Look at the difference. I think this is going into Rafah right. It's on -- right there on the border. There's Rafah right there. Look at the difference between the density on the right side of the screen and the left side of the screen. The left side of the screen is Egypt. On the right side of the screen, as we look at it, that is Gaza.
How do you do a military incursion, a ground assault into something that looks like that? Curious.
HONORE: Well, for one thing, most of Gaza is inside Israeli artillery range -- a weapon that they have not used -- and multiple rocket launch range...
SANCHEZ: Like howitzers.
HONORE: Howitzers. They're inside range. And almost half of Gaza is inside Israeli mortar range. So if you see a ground incursion, they will be able to keep the artillery and the mortars back and put the tanks and the armored personnel carriers forward. But I think those would only be used to cut critical supply lines and to cut the supply routes going into Gaza proper so they could control the flow of who is going and who is coming out and still not be in a position where they will unleash that artillery in urban areas.
SANCHEZ: So a lot of people -- you know, we've all seen the movies -- World War II and the like. And we think, you know, this is -- you know, what to the wall here, as boot people go in. But what you're talking about is a little bit more precision...
HONORE: Right.
SANCHEZ: ...something where they've decided to pinpoint certain targets. They want to go in there, act on those targets and then get out.
HONORE: That's my logic...
SANCHEZ: They're not taking over a place.
JIM CLANCY, CNN ANCHOR: Right.
HONORE: That's my logical military mind -- that they will not seize and takeover Gaza again. They have one mission, I think. It's been laid out by their politicians -- stop the rockets, which means take Hamas from power.
SANCHEZ: But how do you stop -- let me ask you, aren't there risks to something like this?
CLANCY: Huge risks. The point is that, you know, things have -- times have changed. The whole Iraq experience, the roadside bomb, the shape charge -- you know, the molten copper comes up and can take out just about any, any armored vehicle. That could be buried under these roadways.
SANCHEZ: I'm taking of Donald Rumsfeld and the comments made by our vice president, as well, thinking we'll be into Iraq, we'll go in and we'll get out and it won't be that long and it won't take that much.
CLANCY: Well, this could be very deadly. And Khalad Mashal, as we noted earlier, is saying...
SANCHEZ: I mean is it that the same risk is the reason I asked that question?
Is it that kind of risk?
CLANCY: No. Israel will pull out more quickly, I think, than -- I agree with the General Honore. There is no way they're going in there to reoccupy Gaza. They have limited objections -- objectives. Those tunnels -- the tunnel area, perhaps specific targets, perhaps ammunition or supply depots that they can't get at in their bombing campaign.
SANCHEZ: "You can no more win a war" -- this is from MySpace, by the way -- "you can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake. Honestly, what have guns and bombs accomplished than create new enemies? We, as a people, should find better ways to deal with our problems. War is never the answer."
Now, I've got to ask you to respond to that question as a military man.
HONORE: You know, we always look for the just war.
What would he -- what would we be right now if we hadn't fought in the Revolutionary War to create this country?
What would the rest of the world be as far as the growth of democracy?
What would we be if we didn't fight the Civil War?
So I think there is a time and a place for war. I think, in this particular case, war is a result when politics fail. Politics have failed in this region, as the former ambassador said, for over 40 years this has been trying to be resolves.
But in this case -- let's bring it to this case we're talking about. We've got missiles coming out of Gaza into Israel. The Israelis have asked for them to stop. They've tried to apply diplomatic pressure. The missiles continue to come. They start taking a action.
This -- the war -- the tactical fight here will not solve the strategic issue we have in that these two countries and two people -- how are they going to learn to live and to get along?
SANCHEZ: You're...
HONORE: The Israelis could rubble Gaza tomorrow...
SANCHEZ: You're right.
HONORE: ...but the Palestinians are still going to be their neighbors.
SANCHEZ: I don't think there's any...
HONORE: So I'm thinking limited...
(CROSSTALK)
HONORE: I'm thinking limited objective -- military objectives.
CLANCY: Something that will facilitate the diplomatic solution that quiets the rockets.
SANCHEZ: Right.
CLANCY: And I think it, to some measure, limits Iran's influence and limits the influence of the notion that Hamas preaches...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
CLANCY: ...which is that somehow military attacks on Israel and its civilians are going to bring us a victory.
HONORE: Right.
SANCHEZ: But the unanswered question is, does it limit or does it amp it up?
And I know, nobody has answer to that.
CLANCY: No, you...
SANCHEZ: And that's something we're going to be watching through tonight and we're going to be covering this extensively, as you might imagine, here on CNN, with correspondents there on the ground and analysts here following it, as well.
Gentlemen, it's been a pleasure. Thanks to both of you...
CLANCY: Rick, have a good weekend.
SANCHEZ: ...for taking us through the week.
And General Russel Honore, as usual, thank you, sir, for your military experience.
HONORE: Well...
SANCHEZ: And your service.
HONORE: Well, continue to contribute to those organizations like the Red Cross, who's trying to get food and water in there through the International Committee of the Red Cross.
SANCHEZ: Well done, sir and I...
HONORE: People can do that.
SANCHEZ: And I know you've been tied to that for some time.
HONORE: Yes.
SANCHEZ: We're going to come right back with more on the story we told you about taking place with an airline in the United States being criticized. In fact, just moments ago, I received a response from them on the story that we are about to do -- an Indian family unceremoniously taken off a plane. And now it sounds like they really had done nothing wrong.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) SANCHEZ: Boy, just like the last couple of days, we have been getting so much response on this situation that's going on in Gaza between the Israelis and Hamas. Obviously, we're going to be sharing some of these pictures with you.
This is a live picture that you're looking at now. It's from Gaza City. As you can see, there's not a lot of lights.
Can we hear anything?
I'll be quiet to see if we can hear anything going on there just now.
(VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: It just sounds like a hum -- maybe the sound of some planes overhead. Usually, we were told yesterday that some of the people -- local people there will hear drones. And after they hear drones, that's usually followed by some kind of attack -- artillery attack or attack from the sky.
We're all over it.
In the meantime, a controversy of our own here in the United States. An Indian family says they were unceremoniously kicked off of a plane for no good reason -- simply a conversation they were having about who should sit where on the plane. But it may have been misconstrued by some people on the plane, who then told federal officials, who then told the airline. And they were literally kicked off and not allowed to fly on the airline period as a result.
You can judge for yourself about this story, as you watch it filed by Rebecca Cooper of WJLA.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REBECCA COOPER, WJLA CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Alexandria lawyer Atif Irfan and his brother, a Virginia anesthesiologist, were seated on a AirTran flight to Orlando with their wives, children, family and a friend.
UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: I want to go to Gatorland and I want to go swimming and I wanted to go on the airboat.
COOPER: But then all the plane's 104 passengers ordered off after the passengers reported to air marshals hearing the Irfans discuss flight safety.
ATIF IRFANI, RESIDENT OF ALEXANDRIA, VIRGINIA: We generally like to sit in the middle of the plane, because I've always been told it's the safest place to sit. And my sister-in-law had mentioned maybe that it's actually the back of the plane. So we were discussing, basically, where the safest place to sit in an airplane is.
COOPER: But an AirTran official says they were discussing what would happen if the plane blew up.
After two hours, once all the flight's luggage passed reinspection, the flight and its passengers took off. But the Irfans were not allowed back on.
These Indian-American brothers, born in Detroit and now raising their Muslim families here in Virginia, say they feel this wouldn't have happened if it weren't for their Muslim appearance.
IRFAN: Absolutely not.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
IRFAN: I mean, we're not going to stand there on the airplane and say oh, you know, bomb this, terrorist that, threat this. I mean that's -- I mean we're smarter than that and. We don't do those kinds of things. We know better than that.
So I think that, to a certain extent, you know, people listened to whatever words we have and unfortunately hear what they want to hear.
COOPER: The families point out the basic tenet of the Muslim faith is to live in peace. But these Americans, who rode in their high school homecoming parades, study at the University of Maryland, work at the Library of Congress and help deliver New Year's babies at a Adventist Hospital, say it's been harder since 9/11, with sometimes subtle and sometimes not so subtle signs of racism against Muslims. Instead of giving up their faith, they say they embrace it all the more.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
SANCHEZ: By the way, we have just received a response from AirTran Airlines. They sent me this copy just a little while ago, before we got on the air.
Johnny, you want to shoot this over the shoulder just so we can see it. It's an official press release that they put out. It says: "AirTran offers apology to customers on Flight 175 yesterday." It goes on that they apologize to the customers. And I do believe it says in here -- let me see, I believe it -- oh, here it is. I knew I had circled it -- I mean I had underlined this somewhere. "The airline has refunded the air fares of the nine passengers detained for questioning."
What do you think?
Well, I'll tell you what, we've gotten a lot of reaction on this story throughout the day.
Let's go to -- let's go to MySpace first. That would be orange over there.
Thank you, Robert.
"After eight years of rocket attacks from Gaza, Israel finally attacks. It sounds like a political posturing by Miss. Livni."
All right, let's go back now to Twitter. That's my mistake. I thought that's where we were going to be going to begin with: "It may have started as well-intentioned, this situation there that we've seen with AirTran, but AirTran went too far when they wouldn't rebook." Now we get another comment: "If I was on that flight, I would have reported them, also. The pilot made the right call. He's flying the plane."
Another one: "I think that if the family was any other race, then they would have not been removed."
And finally: "That Muslim family should have known better."
Should have known better. Interesting comments coming at us, as we do.
By the way, more on the situation going on right now. We're going to be checking with our international folks over here to my right to see if there's any updates coming on. Obviously a story that we're going to follow throughout the rest of the show.
Go ahead and put up that picture, if you do, Rog. This is that live picture that's coming out of the city. And as we see and check on this, we'll bring you any further developments.
Also, who's right in this situation, who's wrong and is it sometimes just too difficult to find out?
From this perspective, think about that.
We'll be back to talk more about it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: By the way, we just got a Facebook reply that we think is interesting. That story we did just moments ago about the family -- the Indian Muslim family being taken off a plane. This is Michael. He says: "I'm a Muslim-American. I, too, would have notified authorities if I had heard several men with beards talking about a safe side of a plane during boarding. Give me a break."
Sometimes the contrarian viewpoint is the one we least expect and the one we most don't want to hear.
Something else to take note of on this day. Nizar Rayyan was taken out yesterday by the Israelis with a 2,000 pound bomb that did the job quite completely -- so much that all four of his wives and, reportedly, 11 of his children were also killed in that attack.
Now at first blush, one sees this video -- look at that. In fact, you hear it -- look at it right now. Listen to the reaction.
(VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Now your reaction as you watch this is visceral, right?
You feel bad for the victims and you tend to get angry at the aggressor -- the IDF. It's natural. And beyond that, there may be cogent arguments to blame Israel. Certainly, plenty of blame has been going around. But now I want you to consider something else. Consider this. Nizar Rayyan, seen here before he was killed yesterday, was a Hamas militant leader who, according to our correspondents, wanted to be martyred. He bragged about being killed. He all but was inviting an attack and did so while surrounded by his family.
Here's what else you need to know about him. In 2004, he masterminded a suicide attack that killed 10 Israelis. And he'd used his family as a buffer before.
Did you know that in 2001, he set his own son with a strap-on bomb that killed the son and also killed two Israelis?
What that means is these sounds and these pictures that I was showing you a little while ago -- you can get rid of him now. These sounds and these pictures that we were showing you just a little while ago, it make us -- it makes us react one way until we're given information to look at it perhaps another way.
Who's right?
It's not our job to decide. Our job, collectively, is to be smart enough to consider both sides of this undeniably complex conflict that we are considering -- that we are continuing to follow for you.
What do you think?
Your responses right here -- CNN.com/ricksanchez. We'll gather them. As a matter of fact, my son is going to be helping me put them together today. He's off from school and he's good enough to give us a little hand.
Good to be here, Ricky.
How do you feel?
RICKY SANCHEZ: I'm good.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: I'm putting him on the spot.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Let me show you this Google Earth shot again. It kind of flies in. And I want you to pay particular attention to something as you look at this.
You see that right there?
You see past Gaza City. And now you're going to see Rafah.
You see that yellow line?
Everything to the left of that is Egypt. Everything to the right of that is Gaza.
The reason I'm showing you is that what the Israelis are bothered is the tunnels that have been built between Egypt and Gaza and that area that you're looking at there, where they believe or suspect or say they can prove that these tunnels, like the ones the ones you're looking at now, shown to us by Ben Wedeman, can actually be used to bring in weapons that could eventually harm the Pales -- the Israeli side -- the part of Southern Israel -- maybe the Katusha rockets that we've been showing you in the past.
We have a chance to talk now with somebody who is a freelance journalist who's actually been in those tunnels recently and can talk to us about them.
Zouheir Alnajjar is joining us now.
Thank you, Zouheir, for being with us.
Are you there?
ZOUHEIR ALNAJJAR, FREELANCE PRODUCER, CLARENT TV: You're welcome.
Yes, I'm here.
SANCHEZ: We are looking at some of these tunnels. We've looked at some of our own video that we've had in the past. You've been in them recently. Tell us about them.
First of all, what are the tunnels used for?
ALNAJJAR: Actually, I've been there and I have asked many questions for people there before even I was -- I was around the tunnel area about two or three months -- could get into it. And but all what I -- everyone that I asked there, there was -- the regular answer is to, as like what you see in the video. It's about to smuggle. They say it's clearly smuggling for smuggling food supplies and fuel and etc. like...
SANCHEZ: OK.
ALNAJJAR: And (INAUDIBLE)...
SANCHEZ: I heard you say food and fuel, but how about smuggling guns, ammunition or weaponry, as the Israelis say?
ALNAJJAR: Look, we all believe -- we all believe, yes, in the past, it was -- these tunnels were like the lifeline for the Palestinian militia -- the Palestinian party wing armed parties.
But in the last -- in the last period -- like let's talk about the last six months ago, these tunnels were used maybe -- more than 90 percent of this was used for food for sure. I'm sure about what I'm telling you now.
But that doesn't mean it's never been for weapons, it's never been for smuggling weapons. Yes, of course, it was that. And many of Palestinian resistance organizations...
SANCHEZ: (INAUDIBLE)...
ALNAJJAR: ...say that clearly, yes. They used to -- to bring some weapons there. But I cannot say only for weapons.
SANCHEZ: We're down for...
ALNAJJAR: I think...
SANCHEZ: ...to about 45 seconds. But tell me how it works.
Does the guy in the tunnel have a contact up on the Egyptian side when he goes from one country to another?
And how do...
ALNAJJAR: Yes.
SANCHEZ: How do you contact him and what -- how does it work?
ALNAJJAR: Look, it's kind of complicated. I've been there. You know, it was like kind of a communication, like an intercom between the Gaza and Egypt side. And at the same time, they have another guy, an Egyptian guy inside, who is also in another line of like kind of phones -- intercom to the Egyptians. Because Palestinians who already -- who are inside the tunnel cannot get out...
SANCHEZ: Yes.
ALNAJJAR: ...I mean cannot go out from the tunnel in the Egypt. So, yes. They hire another Egyptian to work for them, also.
SANCHEZ: Zouheir, thanks so much for being with us.
I'll tell you what, I should tell the viewers, if you want to be in these tunnels -- and I've been looking at the video all day long of Zouheir trying to get in and out of them. You've got to be thin or go on a diet before you go there, because they are small. They are narrow. They are cramped and they don't look -- to me, anyway -- like a good time.
We're going to be right back with more on what's going on in Gaza. And we'll have more on -- oh, I know what I was going to say. We're going to have your reaction to what's going on. There's been a ton of it coming in.
Stay with us.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: It's Friday and we do political satire on Friday.
Our guest today is Angry Bob. That's his name. He's joining us now, good enough to. He watches us a lot, so he's familiar with what we do and the rambunctious way in which we do it. And...
ANGRY BOB: I love you, Rick. I'm telling you, I love you. I was just watching that story about the tunnels.
SANCHEZ: Uh-huh?
ANGRY BOB: That is something Angry Bob could not deal with. They would have to fire me through those tunnels with a Patriot missile in my tush.
What do you think?
(LAUGHTER)
ANGRY BOB: I'm huge. Look at me. They'd have to butter it up with baba ganoush, you know?
SANCHEZ: Hey, do you Twitter?
ANGRY BOB: Do I Twitter?
Not since I'm 17. I don't know. I take Clearasil for that now.
(LAUGHTER)
ANGRY BOB: I don't know what you're talking about.
SANCHEZ: Hey...
ANGRY BOB: I'm old-fashioned. Io have an abacus at home.
SANCHEZ: By the way, we need to talk about the news.
And I'm being told -- Angie, what did you say, the market is up or down?
ANGRY BOB: Oh, my God...
SANCHEZ: It's up?
ANGRY BOB: ...the Dow went up 200 points today.
But you know what?
That means nothing. The Dow Jones is like an old man reaching for a cruller. Once he gets it, he falls back in the BarcaLounger. It will be down a thousand points.
What do you think?
SANCHEZ: You know, as I watch you and other comedians, I think this year, there were some great stories. But I don't think there was a better story than Sarah Palin, from a comedic standpoint, if nothing else.
Wasn't there?
ANGRY BOB: I'm going to tell you something. Sarah Palin was the hottest thing on TV. I've got to tell you something -- I was just amazed. I had not had -- I was not so turned on by a Republican vice presidential candidate since Nixon chose Agnew. And that does make sense in a weird alternative universe.
SANCHEZ: I'm surprised you weren't attracted to Cheney.
How about Blagojevich?
Is he the male version of her?
ANGRY BOB: Well, no. But Blagojevich -- doesn't he look like a Ken -- an evil Ken doll with like a super fund haircut?
What's the story with that?
And you know what I love about the guy?
His name. I mean Blagojevich -- oh, my God, I just stepped in a Blagojevich. Oh. Blagojevich. Oh, Gesundheit. Oh, get a napkin or something.
SANCHEZ: I'm still trying to get that image of you in the tunnel.
You're great.
ANGRY BOB: And you know what's...
SANCHEZ: Say, listen, Angry Bob, say hi to Mrs. Bob, will you?
ANGRY BOB: I will say hi and I hope to see you again.
Happy New Year, Rick.
You're the best.
SANCHEZ: I appreciate it. Same to you.
By the way, visited again today by my family.
I'm always talking about my kids, right?
This is Savannah (ph). She's the littlest of the little.
Say hi, Savi (ph).
Go ahead, say hi.
OK, then don't.
We'll be right back.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Boy, a lot of comments that have been coming in. Usually toward the end of the show, we reserve some time to be able to let you share your own thoughts with what we've been talking about.
Let's start over here on Facebook, if we can.
Go on in, Robert.
"I'm a Muslim-American and I think that AirTran went overboard. Once the family was cleared, they should have let them board another plane. As for Gaza, nobody talks about the fact that Israel has maintained a blockade of the Gaza Strip for well over two years. That has caused a crisis unlike we've seen for a while."
So, obviously, a lot of opinions, with a lot of folks having a lot of things to say about what's going on.
Let's check one more. This is coming in on Twitter now. This nickfalvo. He's written to us before. He's a regular: "Israel should be treated as a terrorist, i.e. North Korea. And yet we support them. The Zionists are killing civilians."
So, you know, we've gotten them on both sides. Obviously, a very heated comment there.
We'll continue to report it right down the middle.
Here now, somebody else who does the same.
Suzanne Malveaux in "THE SITUATION ROOM."
