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Israeli Air Strike Continue; Senate Seat Controversies; Travolta Son Dies; Gaza Ground War
Aired January 03, 2009 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN CENTER: This is the second stage of what Israel says its military operation is. In all over the last eight days, 400 killed, 2,200 injured. We continue to monitor the developments there. The IDF minister saying that his focus is to bring about significant change in that region. Our Christiane Amanpour, senior international correspondent, is there in Jerusalem joining us now with more from your vantage point. Christiane.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Fredricka, after eight days of wave after wave of Israeli air strikes on Gaza, on Hamas positions there, and also of many hundreds of people killed and wounded on that side, they have today started their ground incursion. We have just recently a few minutes ago a statement on television by Ehud Barak, Israeli defense minister, confirming publicly now this has started and this is their intention to widen it and deepen it as far as they need to continue and their intention is "stop Hamas hostile action against Israel."
What's been going on over the last eight days, as I say is this air strike by Israel on the Gaza area as they have tried to stop Hamas rockets coming into Israel. It hasn't actually stopped it. It might have lowered it a little bit but it hasn't actually stopped it. What has, of course, happened is there has been as we have seen in previous such instances, for instance, in the 2006 war that Israel had with Hezbollah, wave after wave of civilian casualties, which is inflaming the Islamic world, inflaming many, many parts of the world who are now seeing these children, men and women in Gaza, in deep distress.
Many wounded and many killed. We are joined by Mark Regev, who is the Israeli government spokesman to find out exactly what this plan is, what the military incursion will be and what its aim is. What is its aim, Mr. Regev? What can be done now that hasn't been done over eight days of unprecedented Israeli air bombardment?
MARK REGEV, ISRAELI FOREIGN MINISTRY SPOKESMAN: Obviously, ground forces have capability that air forces don't have. Our goal is simple, if you're asking what the goal of the operation is, it's simple. We want to create a situation where the civilian population in southern Israel is no longer on the receiving end of those deadly Hamas rockets. When that can be achieved, this operation can be finished.
AMANPOUR: How can quiet be achieved? Let's go back to 2006, with Israel's war with Hezbollah, which is very similar to this one. Waves of air strikes went in on the ground. Those rockets almost didn't stop. Hezbollah fought Israel almost to a draw. What do you think you can achieve here in Gaza? REGEV: I think we learned some important lessons since 2006. I think those lessons you can already see in the way the U.S. military acted in the last week and we are confident we can achieve a situation where the Hamas leadership understands clearly that it is simply not in their interest for them to continue shooting rockets at Israeli civilians.
AMANPOUR: OK. Is the point as foreign minister Livni said today to get them to stop shooting those rockets, is the point to pound them so hard and then stop with the warning that if they start again, you will pound them? What precisely is the point when you probably know you're not going to wipe them out?
REGEV: We have an articulated regime change as the goal of this operation. Our goal is to protect our people, to protect those half a million Israelis in the south of my country who have been living on the receiving end of these deadly rockets. When that is achieved, the operation will be over. If it can be achieved tomorrow, the operation will be over tomorrow.
AMANPOUR: Are there any realistic diplomatic moves for either a cease-fire or some kind of internationally backed resolution to this, a monitoring, for instance, on the borders of Gaza?
REGEV: There are all sorts of talks going on. But I have to say what is clear; we don't need a band-aid solution here. We don't need to go back to where we were a week ago. We won't agree to that. We have to have a solution that is sustainable, that is durable. We don't want again to see all of those Israelis living in the south fearing day to day the terror of an incoming Hamas rocket. That is an unacceptable reality and we refuse to return to that.
AMANPOUR: But, again, clearly this is going to be a political resolution in the end. It's not going to be one militarily, as you saw with Hezbollah war and as you have just said, you don't want regime change in Gaza. So how are you going to come to an accommodation, a realistic accommodation that what you're doing now actually is more than just a band-aid?
REGEV: I think Hamas' understanding to date that shooting rockets at Israeli civilian targets is simply unacceptable. They are paying an extremely high price for that. And I think they'll understand that it's better to keep quiet in the south. They have alienated not only large parts of the international community, not only large parts of the Arab world; they have alienated their own Palestinian street. No one understands why Hamas two weeks ago publicly tore up the understanding truce with Egypt; they tore up the cease-fire with us and threw them out the window.
And then they started barrages against Israeli civilian targets which reached the crescendo on Christmas Day, 80 rockets, missiles, rocket shells, mortar shells, hitting Israeli civilians. It's just unacceptable. Hamas today is in a difficult situation, frankly, they have no one else but themselves to blame.
AMANPOUR: Mr. Regev, you say they lost the street. The fact of the matter is as you have seen there have been wave after wave of protest in Islamic countries all over the world, right here in the Palestinian territory, in Western Europe as well, in the United States as well. How are you going to win this battle when you know very well that the vision that is being given to the world is dead Palestinian children and women?
REGEV: Need I have to remind you that since Hamas took over the Gaza strip almost two years ago they have systematically destroyed independent society. They have systematically destroyed independent NGOs. They are reporting all of this propaganda. There's no way whatever so independently verify the sort of numbers coming out of Gaza. They have an interest -- if you listen to Hamas, it's like every single person in Israel is his, it's an innocent civilian and we hit no military targets at all.
AMANPOUR: There's two points to that, Mr. Regev. One is the United Nations has talked about those figures and they are in there. They also said at the very least, 25 percent of the more than 400 people who have been killed there are civilians, and the other point is that, yes; we would like to verify it. But Israel is not allowing the international press to go into Gaza. This is an unprecedented situation.
REGEV: First of all, I'm hopeful the international press will be into Gaza as soon as possible. We are hoping that will happen tomorrow. I hope with the fighting, it's still possible. But let's be clear here, the people of Gaza, the civilian population of Gaza are not our enemy, on the contrary. In many ways they are victims like us, both the civilian population of southern Israel and the civilian population of the Gaza strip, have been victims of this terrible, extremist Hamas regime.
AMANPOUR: The thing is they were elected by the people in elections of 2006, practically three years ago right now. Is there a political solution to this?
REGEV: There's a political solution if Hamas reforms. If Hamas accepts what not only Israel demands but what were ultimately the United Nations benchmarks. If they cease the violence and recognize my country's right to exist. Until now Hamas has failed to meet the most minimal benchmarks established by the international community. It's not just Israel that refuses to talk to Hamas, it's Canada, it's Europe, it's the United States, it's Japan, and it's Australia. Most of the international community refuses to talk to Hamas.
AMANPOUR: There are others, though, who do believe that Hamas is there, is in control of a huge slice of the Palestinian territories, with 1.5 million people, and that perhaps at some point they do need to be engaged. Right now former British Prime Minister Tony Blair is in the air on the way here in his capacity as representative of the quartet. French President Nicolas Sarkozy is due here in the region on Monday. What is it that they can do and say that can bring an end to this war right now?
REGEV: We will be talking --
AMANPOUR: With a satisfactory cease-fire?
REGEV: A cease-fire that is satisfactory is one that is a real cease- fire, not a band-aid so we can be sure that the civilian population in southern Israel no longer has to be on the incoming end of these Hamas rockets. It's a very easy point. If that can be achieved, then there's peace tomorrow.
AMANPOUR: What is it though that's going to make that be achieved? What is the political framework? Is it monitoring? What is it that has to happen?
REGEV: First of all, Hamas has to understand that shooting rockets at Israeli civilians is simply unsustainable and can't go on and has to stop.
AMANPOUR: So this is really a slap, a big, heavy hammer to get them to understand that? Is that what this is?
REGEV: You must remember it was not Israel who threw out the cease- fire. It was not Israel who led to these escalations. On the contrary, as much as the cease-fire that was negotiated through Egypt was not perfect, it wasn't Israel that unilaterally threw it out. That was Hamas. So once again, Hamas has no one but itself to blame for this difficult situation.
AMANPOUR: What I want to know is, do you think this is a war that you, Israel, can win or is it just a huge heavy lesson that you're trying to teach them?
REGEV: We wouldn't have embarked upon this operation if we didn't think we could come out of this with a desirable result. And that result is the result of I think everyone watching this program can agree with, that people of southern Israel deserve to live free lives, free from incoming Hamas rockets that have been plaguing them in their community, not for a week but for months and even years. No one should have to live in constant fear of an incoming Hamas rocket.
AMANPOUR: That's a given, obviously. Most people would agree with that. My question is how to achieve that. Again, let's go back two years or so, 2 1/2 years to the Israel/Hezbollah war that, you know, it had similar aspects to it. It hasn't particularly ended satisfactorily. It didn't end with an Israel win.
REGEV: I remind you the situation in the north has been quiet for over 2 1/2 years. And in the south, we want a situation where the southern border will be quiet as well. That's not just an Israeli interest. I'm sure the people of Gaza, despite this terrible Hamas regime with Gaza also yearn for quiet across the border. That's what both people deserve.
AMANPOUR: Can you, will you, will the government change its policy of not letting the foreign press in?
REGEV: We are hopeful that will be possible tomorrow or the coming days, depending on operation of Israel, to let the press in. Israel has the freest press of any country in the region, and we're proud of that.
AMANPOUR: Which is why it is galling because we can't go in because it's Israel.
REGEV: I really hope that will change.
AMANPOUR: On that note, thank you, Mr. Regev, for joining us.
Fredricka, as I said, we heard from the defense minister Ehud Barak this evening who said that this will go on as long as necessary. The idea is to stop those Hamas rockets, and as he said, to change the situation in that southern part of Israel, which is under that rocket threat.
WHITFIELD: Christiane, thank you so much. Also underscoring Barak saying it will not be short nor will it be easy.
Let's go straight to that border now where we find our Paula Hancocks. You see some of the images on the right-hand side of your screen. Images just now coming in. We are seeing some flames in the distance. Paula, what's happening where you are?
HANCOCKS: Fredricka, we are still seeing missile attacks from helicopter gun ships overhead into Gaza. One particular area which we understand is Gaza City, something is burning there. Something has been hit by one of these missiles and there's a significant amount of fire. So as the ground troops are going in, the air attacks are continuing. It's a combined effort by the Israeli military and the Israeli air force. We are still hearing shelling as well and machine gunfire, heavy machine gunfire and certainly Israeli TV is reporting there have been exchanges of fire between the Israeli defense forces and Hamas.
Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: Paula Hancocks, thanks so much for that update. We will check back with you momentarily. Again, live pictures right now the images we are seeing out of Gaza. Paula was saying just moments ago it appears that maybe a missile strike may have caused this right in Gaza, this fiery plume right here. We will continue to watch it and bring you the latest information as we get it.
Meantime, back here in Atlanta, I'm joined by Israeli consulate general to the U.S., Reda Mansour. To give us your point of view on all of this, why is this the only option? We heard Ehud Barak say that this was the only thing and the right thing to do, to launch the second phase of the military operation, ground troops moving into Gaza. Defend it, why?
REDA MANSOUR, ISRAELI CONSULATE GENERAL TO U.S: Well, as you know, this story didn't start last Saturday. It's been going on for eight years. We have been patient in Israel. We have been trying many different ways of achieving the cease-fire, where both sides can coexist together and promote the peace process. However, for the last eight years, rockets have been showering our cities. As long as we wait, Hamas is improving its capabilities with the support of Iran, Hezbollah and other groups in the region. They are reaching more and more areas in Israel.
WHITFIELD: But violence met with violence only results in violence. Who is gaining anything here? Who is accomplishing anything?
MANSOUR: Well, believe me, when you have a Democratic country, last thing I need to remind you, you want to start a war. As we speak, I can tell you most Israelis don't want this war to happen, don't need this war, but they understand this is a war of defense. That we have to do it. We have to assume our responsibility as a serious country and take 1 million Israelis out of the range of Hamas themselves. And sometimes you need to engage in this kind of war because you will face terrorist organizations like Hamas, that for them, this situation right now is the best they --
WHITFIELD: Does that mean you feel this operation is going to help root out Hamas completely? Or is it just another means in which to cripple -- and we know that somewhere down the line, this is going to bubble up in some other organization again.
MANSOUR: We know they are rebellious. They are in schools and hospitals. We know a simple military operation will not uproot a movement like that. However, what we have to achieve is stop that cycle of rockets. Between 6,000 to 10,000 rockets have fallen on Israel in the last eight years. So we tried negotiating. We left Gaza. I see these signs on the streets now saying, free Gaza. I want to join that. Please, free Gaza. The people who took over Gaza from their own government was Hamas. They took it over from the PLO, the Palestinian authority. And now they rule it ruthlessly and they think they can create another Taliban area likenen, shoot missiles whenever they would like to, and we have to accept their understanding of the cease- fire.
WHITFIELD: What are all of the options that Israel looks into to say, you know, we want to cripple, behead Hamas completely, and stop the missile attacks? What are all of the options before deciding on this one, air assault, and ground assault? What were the other things to consider helping bring about this same objective?
MANSOUR: You know, the air assault was the first phase of this war. Right in the beginning --
WHITFIELD: What were the other options?
MANSOUR: As soon as negotiation failed, and this is what Hamas did, they declared openly that the cease-fire is over. They started to shoot rockets and then they thought we would negotiate under fire. They started to dictate conditions. We will not be able to do basically anything in Gaza while they are there. They can stockpile rockets. They can put bunkers inside mosques and hospitals.
This is their idea of a cease-fire. And as we learned from Lebanon in the north in 2006, everybody keeps coming back to 2006, what's one of the lessons of 2006? We left Lebanon in 2000. In six years while we were busy building our tourism industry, motels and hotels all over the gallery and hoping the other side was doing the same, we discovered that actually Hezbollah is building houses and beneath them, the same phenomenon, bunker after bunkers in civilian areas, using people as human shields.
WHITFIELD: Do you want any real resolution? It kind of thinks it all is cyclical. It just goes back to the same thing over and over again. We have two sides who don't see it the same way so let's resort to firing at one another. How is anyone gaining anything? Lives continue to be lost, destroyed. Where is the hope here?
MANSOUR: You're right. It's sad. I think one the most hopeful things we wanted to achieve after the Oslo agreement, is we decided in '93 as we go on, our differences will be resolved through the negotiations. That was one of the most important historical achievements of the Israeli and the Palestinians. However, Hamas was the one in the mid- '90s who started to turn this around because they don't believe in negotiated settlements.
WHITFIELD: What is this day forward? We see air assaults continuing to take place, ground assaults now or ground movement taking place now. What is the hope of what will result?
MANSOUR: The end result of this situation should be very simple thing, it should be a real and serious cease-fire where it's not just that Hamas doesn't shoot at Israel every day, but it starts to rebuild the Palestinian area instead of stockpiling missiles. That's the real and serious cease-fire. And remember Hamas is right there between Israel and Egypt. Look at the position that Egypt is taking. Egypt as well understands that Hamas is as dangerous to Egypt as it is to Israel.
I want to remind our viewers, there is no Arab country that accepts Islam movement in its own country. In some countries it is illegal and in some countries you can be executed if you're a member of an organization like that. So before asking Israel to accept it and accept its conditions, we have also to look at our area and see what the reality is of our region. I think there is hope. The hope is that Israeli defense forces succeed here to stop the rockets and convince Hamas that they can live peacefully if they want. It's their own decision.
WHITFIELD: What is the timetable that you see? If we're talking about eight days to get to this point, 400 lives, by some accounts, lost. 2,200 perhaps injured. We just heard from Ehud Barak, who says this is -- this is not going to be short, nor is it going to be easy.
MANSOUR: That's true. We did say right from the beginning that this is a gradual operation. It started with the air assault.
WHITFIELD: Are you saying another week longer, a month of this? What's your time?
MANSOUR: I don't want to say it will take weeks but we shouldn't speculate. The idea here is try to take out as much of the Hamas infrastructure that is possible. We did as much as we could in the air assault. We were doing the air assault; some people were asking why you don't go on ground operation? Air assault is not that -- not pinpointing the Hamas people. Now that we go ground assault to try to pinpoint the Hamas people, some people say, why do you need ground assault?
You can do it from there. All of this is a military operation. We have a very good intelligence. We are going to be adding more and more targets to this and really try as much as we can. At the end of the day, we know that innocent civilians shouldn't be a part of this. And we will try to get the Hamas people as combatants and as people who are terrorists. And we don't want to harm anyone.
WHITFIELD: What is your gut reaction when you see some of the images coming in, whether it is the fire in Gaza, whether you see trails of missile fire or even the night vision images of the troops going in, knowing that what is likely to follow is more bloodshed? What does your gut tell you when you talk about the hope for peace in that region and you look at these images?
MANSOUR: It's very difficult for me. It's even personal. I want to tell you the first Israeli soldier that was killed in this war a few days ago was from my hometown. I know this personally. This was a 21- year-old soldier who had a 4-year-old child at home. His mother named him after his uncle who died in the war of '74. So, believe me, every Israeli wants this to be over. We want the two-state solution. We are willing to negotiate peace.
We just need these extreme movements to stop manipulating the Palestinian people into these situations time and again. They took over Lebanon and tried to use it against Israel. They took over Jordan in the '70s and tried to use it against Israel. They keep repeating these same mistakes thinking they can somehow wipe Israel out of the map, and they don't understand that the Israelis want peace but they will protect themselves at the same time.
WHITFIELD: OK. Israeli consulate general to the U.S. Reda Mansour, we appreciate your time. We had a lot of reaction from the Israeli side. We heard from Ehud Barak earlier, the minister of the Israeli defense and as well we heard from major there that is running the second phase of this military operation. We haven't heard enough by some accounts for those who are in Gaza. That was one of the complaints coming from Palestinian politician Mustafa Barghouti as I spoke with him a little bit earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MUSTAFA BARGHOUTI, PALESTINIAN PARLIAMENT MEMBER: This is not good for the cause of peace. This is going to destabilize the area. Imagine how the Palestinians will feel, how the Arabs would feel, how the whole world who has a sense of humanity will feel about slaughtering these innocent people just because they insist on having this terrible war. I think this America as an administration and is responsible of creating big wars in front of Barack Obama. Barack Obama spoke about talk, dialogue, and peace-making and now he's finding himself, he will find himself stuck in this terrible bloodbath and this war. He will find himself stuck --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WHITFIELD: All right. There was Mustafa Barghouti, speaking to him earlier, Palestinian politician, talking about his perspective. You heard from Christiane Amanpour, senior international correspondent earlier, talking about the restrictions, why in part we are not seeing more out of Gaza. International press not being allowed into Gaza. Israeli forces not permitting that kind of access as of yet.
Just to underscore if you're now joining us, air strikes, as well as Israeli ground troop movement into Gaza, into an area roughly the size of 146 square miles and these are some of the images earlier of some of the missile fire there taking place in Gaza. We also understand there are fires under way there now. Much more straight ahead here in THE NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: I'm Fredricka Whitfield in Atlanta. New images coming in right now the activity there in Gaza, not only air strikes continuing but now the Israeli ground forces are under way, upwards of 10,000 Israeli ground forces have made their way into Gaza to take hold of certain areas, areas that may be littered with a number of IEDs, tunnel systems and even bunkers. Many military analysts will tell you that this is kind of the prelude to urban warfare, which could likely get very costly and very brutal.
We heard from Ehud Barak, the minister of the Israeli defense forces saying earlier today, justifying why ground forces is the latest move, why they are carrying out this second phase of their military operation, saying that Hamas is taken unprecedented blows against Israel. Gaza -- many of those blows coming from Gaza, launching this now ground operation now under way. The focus is to bring about some significant change says Ehud Barak. He said it will not be short, nor will it be easy but they will do all they can to try to provide humanitarian needs.
Clearly not everyone was able to receive those leaflets over the last couple of days there in Gaza were able to leave Gaza. So presumably in the more densely populated areas, a number of civilians as well as the Hamas militants that seems to be the target of the Israeli defense forces. So it is clear that if an urban warfare does get under way, it will be difficult for Israeli forces say a number of military analysts for them to discern Hamas militants from civilians and it could grow to be a very ugly conflict, one that is now spanned eight days, now reaching a whole new level from air assaults primarily to air assaults in addition to the ground forces from the Israeli side.
So does Israel have an exit strategy? And is there an exit in sight? Here now is CNN's Brian Todd.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): U.S. officials and Arab diplomats tell CNN American leaders are strongly encouraging the Israelis to find a way out of this. Their biggest worry, according to sources, the longer this goes on, the more likely it will become a mirror image of Israel's war against Hezbollah two years ago, when civilian casualties backfired on the Israelis. HISHAM MELHEM, ALLEN: ARABIYA: Hamas could survive the Israeli onslaught. You will have more corpses, more body, and more destruction and yet Hamas could survive politically, even if it is weak in position, this will be like Hamas, Hezbollah and the radicals.
TODD: It will embolden those elements, while some observers say, while embarrassing Israel, the United States and America's moderate Arab allies like Egypt and Jordan. Arab diplomats tell us they sense a shift in the U.S. position just in the few days since this conflict began.
GORDON JOHNDROE, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY ORESS SECY: The United States holds Hamas responsible for breaking the cease-fire. Now, the cease- fire should be restored immediately.
TODD: That was on Saturday, and it meant Hamas should stop its rocket attacks. Now the talk is of a so-called durable cease-fire that both sides have to agree to and honor. And given the fierce resistance Israeli forces got from Hezbollah two years ago, there's a lot less confidence in Israel's ability to score a clear victory now.
PROF. REZA ASLAN, UNIV. OF CALIFORNIA RIVERSIDE: It's hard to imagine how the Israeli military can utterly destroy Hamas as it has set out to do. Hamas, besides being a militant organization, is a social organization that has a political wing. It is an embedded force, not just in Gaza but in the larger Palestinian territories.
TODD: One sign of concern in Washington about Hamas' civilian support base being hit, when he spoke with Israel's prime minister recently, President Bush got an assurance that Israeli forces are only targeting Hamas' military positions.
Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WHITFIELD: Eight days and counting. And again, the Israeli defense minister, Ehud Barak, saying this will not be short, nor will it be an easy conflict. Chief international correspondent, Christiane Amanpour, is in the region right now.
Give us a sense of what you're experiencing where you are there in Jerusalem.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Fredricka, we've heard the comments today from the foreign minister, Tzipi Livni, if you need me here in Jerusalem, also Ehud Barak, the defense minister, and we have been witnessing and monitoring what Paula has been seeing on the border. Nobody can actually get into Gaza because the Israeli government is refusing to allow press, foreign press in. There are some Palestinian press people in there and that's how the images have been coming out, from the Gaza television station there, have been coming out by satellite.
But, when we pressed the Israeli government minister tonight he said that he hoped that people could start going in tomorrow or in the near term. But of course, this is very crucial because what's happening is the second phase of this operation, eight days after the waves of air strikes have left more than 400 people in Gaza dead, according to those in there, according to officials in there, and more than 2,000 wounded, this is now not just the military battle, but it's also become, as always in these cases, a battle over hearts and minds and the propaganda that always accompanies war, in this case the immense emotion that the deaths and the bodies of the women, children, civilians are causing all over the world, not just in the Arab and Muslim world, but in Europe and indeed in the United States, as well.
What's happening is that this is, as I say, the second phase, the troops have gone in on the ground. We are not sure what their final aim is in terms of how wide, how deep they're going in. What the defense minister, Ehud Barak, said was that they're trying to get those areas where the Hamas rockets have been firing into Israel and over the last eight days or so have killed about four Israelis in those towns and cities that are closest to the border there, mostly in the southern part. This is what Ehud Barak had to say just a short while ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EHUD BARAK, ISRAELI DEFENSE MINISTER (through translator): I have thought everything over very carefully and I thought and thought things over before taking the decision. I repeat, this will not be short, this will not be easy. I don't want to delude anyone. And the coming days will be difficult also for the residents of the south. We are also looking at what's happening on the northern border. We do not wish for a confrontation up there. We want our northern front to remain quiet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Ehud Barak said THAT their aim is to stop Hamas what he called hostile action against Israel and to significantly change the situation in that part of the border area. So, that is their aim, how are they going to do it? This is a very important question, because we have seen this story once before, at least once before, back in 2006, the summer of 2006, when Israel launched a very similar campaign against Hezbollah, which had been firing rockets into northern Israel.
So, we don't know quite how this is finally going to play out. As Ehud Barak was giving his updated, his public statement on this action, Hamas officials' spokespeople in Gaza, were also giving their statements to the press. This is what Hamas spokesman, Ismail Radwan, said:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ISMAIL RADWAN, HAMAS SPOKESPERSON (through translator): To the Israeli army, your incursion in Gaza will not be a picnic and we promise you that Gaza will be your cemetery, god willing. You have no choice but to end this aggression and this siege without any condition. You will not live in peace until our Palestinian people live in peace. We will not abandon the battlefield, and we will stay on the thorny course, and we will fight until the last breath. (END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, defiance from Hamas as a far superior army, the Israeli army takes on heavily populated Gaza by air, which is continuing tonight, and now on the ground, with forces and with tanks and heavy artillery.
We had an inkling before it was actually officially admitted that this ground action had started, we had an inkling because we had heard about the artillery fire, about the stepped-up air strikes, obviously softening up positions before ground forces decided that they could go in. Interestingly, earlier today, Israeli foreign minister Tzipi Livni, who by the way is running for election, as is the defense minister Ehud Barak, Tzipi Livni was asked about the proportion or the response to Israel to the Hamas rockets, particularly given, as I said the casualties on the Palestinian side in Gaza appeared to be more than 400 dead, a quarter of those civilians, according to the U.N. there, and more than 2,000 people wounded.
Now, what she said was our aim is to stop those Hamas rockets, and to teach them a lesson, to show them that when they attack us with rockets, we are not going to react proportionately. So, very conscious of the fact that the Israeli action is way, way over what the Palestinian action was, the Hamas action has been, conscious this is aimed at what she said to teach them a lesson and to force them to stop this or continue to suffer this pain that they are doing so right now.
I'm bringing in, of course, my colleague Ben Wedeman, who is based here and has been based in this region for many, many, many years and knows Gaza pretty much like the back of your hand.
How is it, explain the actual layout of Gaza, is there a possibility of separating what Israel calls the Hamas terrorist infrastructure, its military infrastructure, from the civilian aspect of it there?
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Now, Christiane, it's extremely difficult because basically Hamas is part of Palestinian society in Gaza. They live in every neighborhood, they're all over the place. The infrastructure itself is part of the infrastructure of Gaza. I was in the Jabalya refugee camp earlier this year when there was a major Israeli incursion, and I saw that they were firing from deep within the refugee camp, not the outskirts where, according to the Israelis a lot of these rockets are being fired, from the middle of the Jabalya refugee camp, they were firing rockets into Israel.
So, the Israeli intent to stop the rocket fire, they have to go all the way in. And if they go all the way in, they are going to be running into Hamas' strengths. They will be able to use the terrain, they know the territory, the buildings, the allies, the streets and that's the danger for the Israelis, if they go too far in deep.
AMANPOUR: It's the perennial question of the asymmetrical warfare. Obviously, Israel is far better equipment militarily and yet Hamas has this ability to harass, to the guerrilla tactics and to keep firing those rockets. WEDEMAN: It's similar to Lebanon in the summer of 2006. Hezbollah certainly in, military terms, is a fraction, a tiny fraction of what Israel is as an army. But they know how to use the terrain. They have a large level of popular support, and, therefore, they use it to the maximum and they also understand that there's a wider audience. This is not simply the Israelis against the Palestinians. Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians, Iraqis, Iran's, everybody's watching. And they know they are playing to a sympathetic audience in the Muslim and Arab world.
AMANPOUR: A sympathetic audience on the street, but it looks like the Arab government are not as sympathetic as perhaps they might be expected to be and particularly Hosni Mubarak of Egypt is basically saying, I am not opening my border, I am not coming to Hamas' rescue.
WEDEMAN: That's right, he's under extreme pressure, however, from his own street, from ordinary Egyptians and he's in a very difficult position. Not just him, Mahmud Abbas, the president of the Palestinian authority, he's under extreme criticism for essentially toeing the American and the Israeli line and not really going all the way to support his fellow Palestinians in Gaza.
King Abdullah of Jordan, same thing and they felt the same sort of pressure during the 2006 war. Initially, they blamed Hezbollah for starting the hostilities and then they saw the anger on the street and they had to modify their positions. So, their credibility is very weak at the moment and we say see or hear a change in the tone of rhetoric coming out of Cairo, out of Amman, out of Ramallah, to respond to the anger that you're going to be seeing on the street.
AMANPOUR: Ben, thanks. And Fredricka, we mentioned Egypt and, of course, also the United States. These are going to be very, very important players as the attempt to resolve this continues, because there obviously has to be some political attempts to resolve this. It will not be won militarily. Certainly the Israelis know that. Anybody watching knows and also the government's spokesman tonight told us their aim is not regime change in Gaza. They are not aiming to wipe out Hamas. They are aiming to try to give a strong enough sock in the mouth that they will stop using those rockets against Israel.
This is a big wish and we will see how it plays out. But, in terms of the politics, in terms of the diplomacy, Tony Blair, the former British prime minister is landing here this evening in his capacity as special envoy of the quartet, that's the U.N., the United States, Russia and the E.U., also the French president, Nicolas Sarkozy, will be here on Monday and he will also be in the region and going to some of the other countries around here to try to figure out a way to get this resolved in a diplomatic way, if possible -- Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: All right, thanks very much, Christiane. And we know that folks in Washington from the White House to the Department of Defense have been very busy on the telephone talking to their counterparts in that region, as well. We'll have much more in the NEWSROOM right after this.
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WHITFIELD: I'm Fredricka Whitfield in Atlanta. The ground offensive, Israel's ground offensive in Gaza is well underway. You're looking at some of the latest images. In the nightscope imagery on the left, you can see upwards of 10,000 Israeli troops that were on the border. We believe many of them making their way now into Gaza. On the right you're seeing the result of air strikes which continued there, air strikes in Gaza that continue there as a result of what's now being described as the second phase of the Israeli defense operation. Air strikes and now the ground offense underway.
There are lots of different opinions as to how it got to this point. This is the eighth day of the conflict between Gaza and Israel and plenty of opinions about how it will end if there is an exit strategy, and whether this will result in anything positive in the end.
Ziad Asali is founder of the American Task Force on Palestine, joining us from Washington, right now.
You also have your experience in diplomacy of working in that region as an official member of the delegation U.S. State Department on the Middle East investment initiative program. You've had a front row to the efforts of diplomacy. In your view, was this the only resort that Israel had?
ZAUD ASALI, AMERICAN TASK FORCE ON PALESTINE: I am a private citizen, and I am not an official member of the State Department.
WHITFIELD: Not anymore.
ASALI: Yes, no. What I think this is in many ways, this is a failure of politics and policy and diplomacy to reach this stage. Now we have a ground offensive taking place. The cease-fire clearly is not in the offing right away. The terms of the cease-fire, when and if it happens, will determine whether the performance of Hamas, which rejected the terms of continuation of the cease-fire, will be better off after the United Nations Security Council and the terms of agreement of the cease-fire will be better off before or after having done that.
WHITFIELD: Do you have much faith that the U.N. could jump in at this point and help promote a cease-fire, help both sides to be happy?
ASALI: The United Nations will eventually be the convening power that will put the parties together.
WHITFIELD: Eventually in weeks, months or years?
ASALI: Yes, exactly. I cannot tell. And is not going to be today or tomorrow.
WHITFIELD: And all of the above.
ASALI: We know it will not be right away. That much we know. It was postponed from Monday. Now, obviously, everyone anticipated the ground war. And now the facts on the ground, literally, will end the performance of both armies or combatants on the ground, will in fact color the terms of the cease-fire that is sure to be coming at some point.
WHITFIELD: Well, it's interesting we heard the point of view from both sides in different ways, Hamas saying that you will not live in peace, meaning Israel, until our Palestinian people live in peace. Ehud Barak, the Israeli defense minister, saying that this will not be short nor easy, but they have taken unprecedented heavy blows from Gaza and thereby that's why they launched this ground operation and had no other way in which to turn.
ASALI: Yeah, unfortunately, this has turned out to be a test of manhood, the dignity of the people who are talking. Hamas, of course, has done this on its own but now it is -- it is aspiring to represent all of the Palestinian people. And for that, it wants to say that this is an Israeli/Palestinian war, not an Israeli/Hamas war.
And the more they look like victims, the more they look like they are defending their dignity of the Palestinian people, the more support that they will have. Israel, on the other hand, obviously cannot go back to the status quo ante where missiles were thrown at it from Gaza, so it has to do something to justify the whole effort that they got involved in.
WHITFIELD: How disheartening is this for you, who at the core, is a diplomat to see that diplomacy and politics certainly were not able to do what now war is?
ASALI: Well simply, I can say that there is no military solution to the fundamental conflict between the Palestinians and the Israelis. These are two people who live on the same strip of land and at some point in time, they have to find a way to share it. The only meaningful way to share it is to split it between Palestine and Israel.
All actions like this war, et cetera, et cetera, are just postponing the inevitable, which is to have to separate these two people and have each one of them have a state, sovereign state, that lives in dignity with its neighbor.
Now, of course, Hamas does not represent the whole Palestinian people. That is precisely one of the major problems. The P.A. is the major representative and it has this vision that I just outlined. So, depending on the outcome of this conflict, we will see whether Israel will be in a position to actually engage seriously into negotiating a solution with the P.A., the PLO, and that will be acceptable by the international community alongside the truce...
WHITFIELD: And talk to men -- when we talk about the international community, yes, we are talking about the U.S., we are talking about a number of Arab nations, too, who are all taking different approaches as to what's taking place, being a bit reticent to defend Hamas at the same time, don't want to cozy up to Israel either.
ASALI: That's the initial reaction. I anticipate the -- what is going to happen on the ground, the pictures that will be displayed all over al-Jazeera and everywhere else will push an emotional outcry of the Arab and Muslim community globally and will apply pressure on some of the governments in the region, including Egypt and the Palestinians and Jordan. And, of course, the rejection is from (ph) the Iranian relations will be much more vocal in supporting Hamas, I think, publically in the days to come.
WHITFIELD: So, we know U.S. can be very influential to Israel, certainly has the ear of, but who of the Arab nations, which would be most respected by Hamas, to listen, to take the guidance, to want to take the road of diplomacy? What Arab nation could be that influential?
ASALI: The supporters of Hamas do not enjoy the confidence of the United States or the international community and certainly not that of Israel. So, if we're talking about at some point a compromise, then it will have to look, Hamas will have to look again to countries like Egypt in order to broker the deal. And Hamas has really vilified and been really uncomplimentary of Egypt the last month or so, which I think is not very wise and perhaps it will find out in the future that it wasn't necessary to do so.
Egypt after of all is trying to defend its borders and trying to keep the unity of the West Bank and Gaza and does not want to absorb Gaza and its people into its own territory and that's why it closed its border for entirely Egyptian consideration.
WHITFIELD: All right, Ziad Asali, founder of the American Task Force on Palestine, joining us from Washington. We appreciate your time.
ASALI: Thank you. Thank you very much.
WHITFIELD: And much more straight ahead in the NEWSROOM on the conflict now in the eighth day, from an air assault now leading to the Israeli ground assault in Gaza.
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WHITFIELD: All right, that Israeli-led ground incursion continues underway. We'll get more on that in a moment. But first, other stories we're following for you now.
Tragedy strikes actors John Travolta and Kelly Preston as an autopsy is planned Monday for the couple's late 16-year-old son. Jett Travolta, seen here with his dad last month in Paris, was found unconscious Friday by a caretaker at Bahamian resort where the family was vacationing. Authorities say he died after apparently having a seizure and hitting his head in the bathtub. The 16-year-old had been suffered from a developmental disability his parents contributed to Kawasaki disease. His father spoke about the condition with Larry King back in 2001.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN TRAVOLTA, ACTOR: With my son it was, again, it was about seven years ago and I was obsessive about cleaning, his space being clean. So we constantly had the carpets cleaned and I think between him -- the fumes and walking around maybe picking up pieces or something, he got what is rarely a thing to deal with, but it's called Kawasaki syndrome. It's easily handled if you identify it and we did and it was handled in 48 hours, but that 48 hour was...
LARRY KING, LARRY KING LIVE: Was he knocked out?
TRAVOLTA: No. He wasn't knocked out. It was that the immune system overreacts because they have almost the equivalent of metallic chemical and their bodies are responding to that.
KING: You knew that right away?
TRAVOLTA: No, no. The doctor knew that. We didn't know what was wrong.
KING: He was what, how old?
TRAVOLTA: He's nine now, so he was probably two or 2-1/2.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WHITFIELD: After the autopsy, a family attorney says Jett Travolta will be buried in Ocala, Florida.
Well, who is Minnesota's U.S. senator? The incumbent Norm Coleman on the right or democratic challenger Al Franken? All big question marks. Sixty days after Minnesotans casted their ballots, state election officials still don't know. Well today, nearly a thousand sealed absentee ballots that were previously rejected are being reviewed by the secretary of state's office. But not without objections from the Coleman campaign who wanted the recount to wait pending a Supreme Court decision with nearly three million votes cast, right now a mere 49 votes gives Franken the slimmest of margins.
And we should know within the hour who will replace Ken Salazar as Colorado's next U.S. senator. Officials say governor Bill Ritter is expected to name Denver public school superintendent Michael Bennett at a news conference, next hour.
Salazar was tagged by President-elect Barack Obama to be his secretary of interior.
The governor accused of trying to auction off the Senate seat vacated by President-elect Obama is still in office, but with diminished power. A spokesperson for the Department of Homeland Security confirms the agency has revoked Governor Rod Blagojevich's privileges to classified federal security information.
The spokesperson declined to say why, but noted security clearance can be revoked for a number of reasons, including being the subject of criminal charges. Blagojevich maintains that he has done nothing wrong.
So, the man Blagojevich appointed for the post sorrow kated by Barack Obama is getting major pushback from his would-be peers. Former Illinois attorney general, Roland Burris, says he expects to be seated Tuesday as the junior senator from his state, but not without a Capitol Hill-sized battle. CNN's Samantha Hayes reports.
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SAMANTHA HAYES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If Roland Burris shows up on Capitol Hill Tuesday, the welcoming committee won't be waiting. Burris may enter the Capitol here, but once through security, he has no office, no staff, and it's possible no one will acknowledge him as the new freshman senator from Illinois, but that's not stopping him.
ROLAND BURRIS (D), FMR ILLINOIS ATTORNEY GENERAL: We're certainly going to make contacts with the leadership of the Senate to let them know that the governor of Illinois has made a legal appointment and that I am currently the junior senator for the state of Illinois.
HAYES: Tuesday, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid made his position clear stating, "...anyone appointed by Governor Blagojevich cannot be an effective representative of the people of Illinois and will not be seated by the Democratic Caucus."
But a confrontation with Burris, who was constitutionally qualified and would be the only African- American senator, is a risky matter for Democrats.
MARTIN KADY, POLITICO.COM CONGRESSIONAL EDITOR: There have to be some back-channel negotiations that must be going on to have some sort of middle ground where they don't necessarily seat him as a full-fledged senator, but they don't sit there and have the chaos and the poor imagery of blocking this guy at the Senate door.
HAYES: Senate rules could prevent Burris from entering the floor because he is appointed, not elected. But the man in charge of enforcing those rules says a confrontation is unlikely.
TERRANCE GAINER, U.S. SENATE SERGEANT OF ARMS: I do not think he's the type of person and the Senate is not the type of institution that looks for fistfights at the door. I think we'll have this all worked out. And then if there's disagreement, we'll leave it to the courts.
HAYES: Whatever happens next week, the conflict may soon take a backseat to other news.
KADY: Congress, regardless of whether it's Senator Burris or not so much Senator Burris, they'll have to go to work on an $800 billion economic stimulus. Then we're going to inaugurate President Obama. That's -- those events will overtake this -- this fascinating little side story here.
HAYES (on camera): One of the reasons the sergeant at arms, Terrance Gainer, is so confident there won't be any problems, is because he knows Burris from the Illinois state government.
Samantha Hayes, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
