Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsroom
Senate Judiciary Committee Grills Holder on Rich Pardon; Democrats to Unveil $825 Billion Stimulus Package; Hillary Clinton Hearing
Aired January 15, 2009 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: No holds barred over Eric Holder, the top nominee could cause a partisan split. Live coverage of confirmation hearings. Also on Capitol Hill, your money at stake. Along with Barack Obama's plans for it. Key vote on the federal bailout balance.
It is Thursday, January 15th. I'm Heidi Collins. You are in the CNN NEWSROOM.
A yes vote on Hillary Clinton just a few minutes ago, the senate foreign relations committee vote is the next step in the confirmation process. Now today's yes vote paved the way for a full senate vote sometime after next week's inauguration. The vote today was 16-1. Only Louisiana republican David Vitter voted no.
Here is what else is in the run down on Capitol Hill this morning. Several confirmation hearings are already under way. More of them begin this hour. Right now, Eric Holder's hearing is going on. It began about 30 minutes ago. Holder is President-elect Barack Obama's choice for attorney general. We're going to have more on Holder coming up in just a moment.
Ken Salazar's hearing also began last hour, the Colorado senator nominated for interior secretary. The former Obama campaign advisor Susan Rice also facing questions today. She was picked to be the next U.S. ambassador to the United Nations. The senate banking committee is hearing from Mary Shapiro, the former SEC commissioner is now nominated to head the Securities and Exchange Commission.
Also on the Hill today is Arizona Governor, Janet Napolitano. Barack Obama has chosen Napolitano to replace Michael Chertoff as Homeland Security secretary. A whole lot going on but one of the most watched of today's hearings is certainly Eric Holder. The attorney general nominees is facing the senate judiciary committee right now. We want to bring in CNN congressional correspondent Brianna Keilar with the very latest on Capitol Hill. Good morning to you, Brianna.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Heidi. This is expected to be perhaps the most contentious of the confirmation hearings. Now, Eric Holder was number two at the department of justice. He was the deputy attorney general in the Clinton administration, and it's his years there, especially two things that happened under his watch there as a key player when it comes to - when it came to, rather, presidential pardons that have really gotten a closer look from Arlen Specter, the ranking republican on the judiciary committee, which is holding this hearing today. And this is what Arlen Specter told me right before going into this hearing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: It's important, because the president needs to be told no when he's doing the wrong thing. Attorney general is different from any other cabinet officer who carries out the president's policies. Attorney general has to uphold the rule of the law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: Arlen Specter there, saying the independence of an attorney general very important, and he's really going to be questioning. We're expecting him to really grill Eric Holder when it comes to two pardons that happened under the Clinton administration. The first, Mark Rich, a fugitive commodities trader, who was pardoned. His ex- wife had given quite a bit of money to the democratic party, and to the Clinton Library.
Critics say basically that Holder told Rich's lawyer about a route he could take towards a pardon, which was a direct appeal to the White House, sort of circumventing the normal process. What is clear, though, is at the very least, Holder didn't stand in the way of his pardon. The other pardon we're expecting will get a lot of attention is that of 16 members of a Puerto Rican nationalist group that was involved in more than 100 bombings in the '70s and '80s, domestic bombings that killed six people, wounded many others.
None of the people who were pardoned were convicted of murder. However, Clinton did pardon them, and we're going to hear, Heidi, from a couple witnesses who are relatives of victims or somehow involved in these bombings, and they will be testifying, basically, against Eric Holder being picked for attorney general.
COLLINS: Yes, how typical is something like that, Brianna, in a confirmation hearing like this?
KEILAR: How important is the -
COLLINS: How difficult is it to have basically witnesses testifying against the nomination?
KEILAR: Well, it's a little different than some of the ones we have seen, no doubt. It seems we have heard the word "love fest" -
COLLINS: Yes, absolutely.
KEILAR: That some of these - certain issues have come up, you know, in Hillary Clinton's confirmation hearings, Tom Daschle's confirmation hearing. But it was kind of cut and dry. And we didn't see really this testimony of people for and testimony of people against. Important to note, Heidi, that in terms of people who were testifying for Eric Holder, there's actually Fran Townsend, the former top Homeland Security advisor to President Bush. So you can see that he's getting some support from across the aisle, as well.
COLLINS: Sure. All right, well, we are watching closely. We are see former Senator John Warner speaking right now. And there you see Eric Holder, President-elect Barack Obama's nominee for attorney general. We are going to talk more about Holder's Clinton connection coming up a little bit later in the hour.
Veteran Washington journalist Bob Franken is going to be joining us in about 10 minutes. But for now, let's go ahead and listen in once again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Historic inauguration to be held next week. I thank -
SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D), JUDICIARY CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Senator Warner, you and I have sat on - you and I have sat on the inaugural stand for inaugurations of both democrats and republicans. As president. (FEEDBACK)
And I think we have both wished whoever - whichever party they were from, wished them well. Congresswoman Norton, I want to recognize you. You were recently elected by the people of the District of Columbia to your 11th consecutive - ( FEEDBACK)
Thank you. In the House of Representatives. And please, Congresswoman Norton, go ahead.
REP. ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON (D), DC DELEGATE: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Unrelated to my own testimony, I've been asked by the chair of the congressional black caucus to request that her letter for the caucus in support of Mr. Holder be admitted into the record?
LEAHY: Thank you. It will be - Senator Feinstein had already sent that letter and asked that it be part of the record. I've read the letter. It definitely will be part of the record.
NORTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, it is a particular pleasure to - to appear before you this morning with my good friend whom I miss already. The fact that John Warner, who enjoys such a sterling reputation in this body has stood for Eric Holder, I think, speaks volumes about Mr. Holder's experience and character.
Considering your time restraints, I'm going to read my thoughts this morning, Mr. Chairman, and ranking member Specter. I'm pleased to introduce Eric Holder, a long-time resident of the District of Columbia. But my few words this morning have little in common with the predictable introductions of home state senators and others.
I did not know Eric Holder until he competed for the post of the United States attorney for the District of Columbia. I came to know him much - in much the same way that you will know him, after today's hearing. Because the district has the same federal officials as the state's, but no senators, President Bill Clinton granted me the courtesy to recommend the U.S. attorney district court judges and the U.S. marshal. In the district's two centuries as the nation's capitols, residents have had to live with the decisions of these important federal officials while having no way to affect their appointments. I was determined to vindicate the president's courtesy by the transparency and the competitiveness of the process, and the excellence of --
COLLINS: All right. Once again, what you are watching, the confirmation hearings of President-elect Barack Obama's choice, nominee, for attorney general, Eric Holder. We are listening to some of the comments right now from the witnesses. And, of course, this is Representative Eleanor Holmes Norton from Washington, D.C.
In the meantime, while we continue to monitor this confirmation hearing, it does carry a lot of baggage by way of the senate this morning, of course. And here to weigh in on some of that baggage with us now, syndicated columnist and former CNN correspondent, Mr. Bob Franken. Bob, nice to see you once again here.
BOB FRANKEN, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Nice to see you.
COLLINS: On CNN. Listen, I know that you have covered the judiciary for quite some time. Is this confirmation going to happen?
FRANKEN: It would be very surprising if it didn't. One of the reasons - I don't know if you just noticed a moment ago, when delegate Eleanor Holmes Norton said she wanted to put in the record a letter from the congressional black caucus that, is one of the subtexts here, which is to say that if he is, in fact, confirmed, he would be the first African-American to be attorney general of the United States. That is no small consideration. Beyond that -
COLLINS: Does that, though - sorry, Bob. Does that change some people's minds on this confirmation?
FRANKEN: It changes the dynamic a little bit. The republicans in particular have to be very, very careful, more careful, quite frankly, that they are not perceived as being overly aggressive. Now, that is not to say that there are not some significant issues out there. We have heard the review of them, we have heard about the Mark Rich pardon. We are going to be taking a trip down memory lane back to the Clinton administration, and then you'll have the democrats who are going to be raising all the issues about the Bush administration, and it's going to be like a poker game, where somebody says, I'll see your Bush administration and raise you two Clinton administrations.
COLLINS: Yes. Now we did hear from our correspondent Brianna Keilar a little bit about some of these witnesses that will testify, and clearly there is support for Eric Holder. And there are also some witnesses that will be testifying against him, so to speak. Tell us a little bit more about that, and the dynamic, too.
FRANKEN: Well, the dynamic is interesting. We're talking about the possibility and the probability of witnesses testifying about his favoring the pardons of the FALN, people members of the vet group. That was a group, of course, that the United States deemed a terrorist group, was involved in about 130 different acts of violence, and where people were convicted.
Because of that, that addresses the whole issue of terrorism, which, of course, is one of the significant issues that is going to be discussed here, and the Bush administration, and the way that it dealt with terrorism and some of the legal decisions that were made and the way that things operated in such areas as unauthorized wiretapping, such as the way that prisoners were treated, such as the way that enemy combatants were treated. All of that is going to be up for discussion. In particular, we're going to be watching very closely to see how Holder would make changes in those different controversial areas.
COLLINS: Yes, no question about that. Also, we have spoken a little bit here already this morning about some of these decisions that he made, and particularly when referencing Mark Rich. We have heard him say several times now that he wishes he had thought a little bit more about that. Wishes maybe he would have maybe handled things a little bit differently. Does it or does it not speak to the potential for him to be an independent thinker in a position like attorney general?
FRANKEN: Well, that is an issue that's being raised by Arlen Specter and others. The democrats have long argued that the attorney general, under George W. Bush particularly, Mr. Gonzalez, were not, in fact, as independent as they should be. That they were just very pliant, and went along with some very dubious legal principles. The republicans are going to try and turn that back and insist that Eric Holder goes on the record, saying that he is willing to be the person who will say no to President Obama, if necessary.
There is a little bit of retribution here. The republicans are going to try and make the democrats sort of eat their words and all of the criticisms of the last eight years.
COLLINS: All right. So what happens next? And how long do you think this confirmation hearing is going to go on? I'm looking at my witness list here, which is also interesting. Maybe you can comment on this, Bob, as we look at some of these live pictures. Right next to Eric Holder there, we see the former director of the FBI.
FRANKEN: And that's going to be some questions whether he really benefits Holder or not. He was quite the controversial FBI chief. So, yes, he's going to be there. He's going to be stronger supporting Eric Holder. I'll tell you one that was really most significant. That was the one we heard from just a moment ago, and that was John Warner, the just now former U.S. senator has a tremendous amount of respect in the Senate. And to somebody who, of course, is a republican, sort of an emeritus republican now, that should weigh heavily on the minds of the senators when it comes time to vote, whether to confirm.
COLLINS: OK. Then give us an idea, if you could, Bob, about what a Justice Department will look like under Eric Holder.
FRANKEN: Well, first of all, we're going to have some immediate visits, revisits, to some of the principles that underline interrogations of enemy combatants, what you do about Guantanamo Bay. There is a case coming before the Supreme Court almost immediately having to do with the president's power to take people in the United States and detain them without any further legal proceedings. That is one that's going to be addressed by the Justice Department.
There's a whole litany of questions in that area. What do you do about warrantless wire tapping? What do you about enforcement of civil rights laws? That type of thing. There has been a way of doing things for the last eight years under the Bush administration that have been attacked by the democrats, and the presidential candidate, Barack Obama. Well, if Eric Holder becomes his attorney general, you can be sure that he is vigorous about attacking some of those things.
COLLINS: All right. Well, Bob Franken, we know that you, again, have been covering the judiciary for quite some time. We continue to follow this, appreciate your comments, and good to have you back here for us.
We continue to watch this, because we believe the nominee, Eric Holder, for attorney general is getting ready to go ahead and speak. Let's listen to the swearing in.
LEAHY: Do you affirm or swear that the testimony you are about to give before this committee is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you God?
ERIC HOLDER, ATTORNEY GENERAL NOMINEE: I do.
LEAHY: Thank you. Please be seated. I'm never sure whether to address you as Mr. Holder, Judge Holder, Deputy attorney general Holder, but Mr. Holder, please go ahead and - and give your opening - first, before you did, though, would you introduce the members - before we start the clock, introduce the members of your family?
I've already met them so to all of the members of the committee can see them here.
HOLDER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Seated behind me right behind me is my wife, Dr. Sharon Malone. The beautiful woman to her left is my mother, Merriam Holder. A series of beautiful young women here is my daughter Maya Holder, Brook Holder, my little guy there that's Eric Holder the third, born on the same day as my father. He was going to have a different name, but we decided since he was born on my dad's birthday, his last birthday, that that had to be his name. So he is not named after me, he is named after my dad. That's my brother, William Holder. His wife, Deborah holder. My niece, Amanda Holder.
LEAHY: I thank you all. And I know you have many, many friends. I see former FBI director Louis Dupree in the front row and I see you many others. But please, Mr. Holder, go ahead.
HOLDER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Senator Specter, and members of the Judiciary committee. I am deeply honored to appear before you today. In five days, just a short distance from this historic room, the next president of the United States will take the oath of office. He will swear to preserve, protect and defend the constitution of the United States.
I have been asked by him to serve as attorney general, the cabinet officer who is the guardian of that revered document. I feel the full weight of this responsibility. If confirmed by the Senate, I pledge to you and to my fellow citizens that I will faithfully execute my duties as attorney general of the United States of America.
I will do so by adhering to the precepts and principles of the constitution. And I will do so in a fair, just, and independent manner. This is the fourth time I've come before the Senate for confirmation to a position in law enforcement.
I have served almost 30 years as a prosecutor, judge, and senior official within the Department of Justice. President-elect Obama and Vice President-elect Biden asked me to assume this responsibility, because they know I will fight terrorism with every available tool at my disposal. And reinvigorate the department's traditional missions of protecting public safety and safeguarding our precious civil rights.
I accept their trust in me, and with your support, I intend to lead an agency that is strong, independent, and worthy of the name, the Department of Justice. Now, I could not have arrived at this moment would the without the sacrifice and example of so many others.
I begin, of course, by recognizing support of my family, who you've just met. My wife Sharon, a respected professional in her own right, has put up with a lot over the years, because of my demanding work, and she has done so with the love and grace that characterizes all that she does. Thank you, sweetheart. My wife is a tremendously talented physician. But the best example of her skills and qualities as a person are on display not in her doctors' office, but in our home in the form of our three children. They make our lives infinitely richer, and I thank them for their love and patience.
It wasn't until I was a parent myself that I truly appreciated all that my parents did for me. My father, only 12 years old when he came to this country from Barbados, worked hard throughout his life to teach my brother and me about the promise of America. He and my mother made sure that we never wasted the opportunities presented to us, especially in education, in the excellent New York City public school system.
My brother grew up to be a port authority police officer, and a successful businessman. And I grew up to arrive at this humbling moment. I'm glad my mother is here to see this day, and I know my father would be proud. In addition to my family, there are others who have inspired and guided me. Sitting here today, the very day that civil rights leader Martin Luther King would have celebrated his 80th birthday, I acknowledge the debt that I owe him, and thousands of other Americans, black and white, who fought and died to break the back of segregation.
Dr. King devoted himself to breathing life into our constitution. I feel privileged just to stand in his shadow, and hope that as attorney general, I can honor his legacy. One of those who served on the front lines of the struggle for equality was my late sister-in-law, Vivian Malone Jones who integrated the University of Alabama in 1963. In an atmosphere of hate almost unimaginable to us today, she and fellow student James Hood faced down Governor George Wallace, and in the presence of then deputy attorney general Nicholas Katzenbach, they enrolled in that great university.
The very next day, NAACP leader Medgar Evers was gunned down in his driveway in Mississippi. But Vivian never considered backing down. She went to class, despite the ever-present danger, later saying simply that she decided not to show any fear. She never did. Throughout her too-short life. In a career in public service that began in the civil rights division in the Department of Justice, and ended as an advocate for environmental justice, she showed me the meaning of courage and purse perseverance.
Finally, I want to acknowledge the thousands of career employees at the Department of Justice. They have been my teachers, my colleagues, and my friends. When I first joined the department's public integrity section in 1976, they showed me what it meant to serve the people. When I was the United States attorney in the District of Columbia, they worked beside me to fight drug crimes, drug trafficking and public corruption. And when I was deputy attorney general of the United States, they were my troops in a daily battle for justice. These career professionals are not only the backbone of the Department of Justice -
COLLINS: All right. As we continue to listen in to the opening comments made by Attorney General nominee Eric Holder, we are also watching Senator Joe Biden. This is his goodbye, addressing the Senate right now. Let's listen to him for a moment.
VICE-PRESIDENT ELECT JOE BIDEN: ... to your left, senator, the top row here, second in. It was temporarily my desk, and I remember standing up and having been told that the desk on my right was the desk of Henry Clays, on my left, Daniel Webster, the senior senator from the respective states got those desks. And I say to my friend from California, it was the only time I can remember being speechless. When I stood there as a 30-year-old kid thinking, oh, my god.
Well, I never thought I would be standing here today. I never believed serving in this chamber was my destiny. But it always was a big part of my dreams. You know, I remember vividly the first time I walked in this chamber, I walked through those doors. When I walked through those doors as a 21-year-old tourist, I had been down visiting some of my friends at Georgetown University. I went to the University of Delaware, and I was - I had a blind date with a young lady from school they used to call Visi, visitation, which is now part of Georgetown. My good friend, a guy named, Dave Walsh was there.
And after the evening staying at his apartment, I got up and I shouldn't say this probably, but I - I don't drink. Not for moral reasons. I just never had to drink. And there's nothing worse than being the sober guy in a bunch of - with a bunch of college guys who have a hangover the next morning. So I got up and decided I would get in the car - it was a two-story, Senator Carper, and I drove up to the capitol. I've always been fascinated with it. In those days, you could literally drive up to the front steps. This is - I was 21 years old, this is 1963. And I say to my friend from Iowa, I drove up to the steps, and there was a rare Saturday session that had just ended. So I walked up the steps, found myself in front of what we call the elevators, and I walked to the right, went in the reception room. There was no one there. And the glass doors - those French doors leading to behind the chamber were open - there were no signs then, I just walked in.
I literally - I walked in, and I walked in down here, and I came through those doors. And I walked into the chamber, and the lights were still on, and I was awestruck, literally awestruck. And what in god's name made me do it, but I walked up to say to my friend from Arkansas, and I sat in the presiding officer's chair. And I was mesmerized. And the next thing I know I feel this hand on my shoulder, and the guy picks me up and spins me and says, what are you doing. And after a few moments, he realized I was just a dumb struck kid, and didn't arrest me or anything.
But that was my first time I walked on the Senate floor. And it's literally a true story. And, by the way, in just nine years later, 10 years later, I walked through those same doors as a United States senator.
COLLINS: All right. Just want to give you a little bit of flavor, because we do have two events happening now. You have been listening for a moment there to Vice President-elect Joe Biden. He is saying goodbye to the Senate this morning, as I'm sure you are well aware. He has been representing the state of Delaware for 36 years now, moving on to the vice presidency.
On the other side of the screen, I want to get you back now to the confirmation hearings of attorney general nominee Eric Holder. He is now on the witness stand. More of his comments.
HOLDER: ... congress and we respect the federal judiciary. We will carry out our constitutional duties within the frameworks set forth by the founders and with the humility to recognize that congressional oversight and judicial review are necessary.
They're beneficial attributes of our system and of our government. In particular, I know how much wisdom resides in this committee from your collective decades of service and government, and I'll be sure to draw upon it. The years I spent in government taught me a lot. As a public corruption prosecutor, I took on powerful interests to ensure that citizens receive the honest service of the people who serve then.
As a judge, I used the awesome power I have to deprive criminals of their liberty. A power that weighs heavily on anyone who exercises it. And as a high ranking official in the Department of Justice, I faced a series of complex, time sensitive, time-sensitive prosecutorial and administrative decisions every time I stepped inside the building.
Now, my decisions were not always perfect. I made mistakes. I hope that enough of my decisions were correct to justify the gratifying support that I have received from colleagues in law enforcement in recent weeks. But with the benefit of hindsight, I can see my errors clearly, and I can tell you how I learned from them. I can also assure you that I'll bring to the office the principle that has guided my career, that the Department of Justice first and foremost represents the people of the United States, not any one president, not any political party, but the people of this great country.
I learned that principle in my first days at the department when I sent public officials from both parties to jail, guided my work as U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia when I prosecuted one of the most powerful members of my own party at the very time he held in his hands the top legislative initiative of my own president.
And it guided my services as deputy attorney general when I recommended independent counsel investigations not just of members of the cabinet, but of the very president who appointed me and in whose administration I proudly served. None of those calls was easy, but I made them because I believed they were the right decisions under the law. If confirmed as attorney general, I pledge to you that the same principle will guide my service and inform every decision that I make.
I have spent most of my career at the Department of Justice, and I cherish it as an institution. Its history, its spirit, its people, and its sense of integrity are unmatched within the federal government. Much if I had the honor of serving as attorney general, I will uphold the trust that you have placed in me.
I will do so by ensuring that the department is an instrument of our great constitution, but more than that, the servant of the American people. Thank you, very much.
COLLINS: All right. Once again, the opening comments there from President-elect Barack Obama's nominee for attorney general, Eric Holder. That is something that we have been watching, and now there will be questions and answers and a whole list of other witnesses that we have already mentioned here. We will continue to monitor that situation for you, and those proceedings we are watching many other things today, especially this. The vote that is expected to come later today on the bailout funds requested by President-elect Barack Obama.
Another $350 billion, the remaining half of the original $700 billion bailout. We'll be back live from Capitol Hill in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: A very, very busy day. All of this happening right now. And we've got it for you here on CNN. It's a lot of action on Capitol Hill this morning. Several confirmation hearings, already under way.
We have been showing you some of Eric Holder's hearing that started 30 minutes ago. Holder is President-elect Barack Obama's choice for A.G., attorney general. We're going to have more on Holder coming up in just a moment. Also, Ken Salazar's hearing started last hour, the Colorado senator nominated for interior secretary. And former Obama campaign adviser Susan Rice also facing questions today. She was picked to be the next U.S. ambassador to the United Nations.
The Senate Banking Committee hearing from Mary Shapiro, the former SEC commissioner now nominated to head the Securities and Exchange Commission. Also on the Hill today, Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano. Barack Obama has chosen Napolitano to replace Michael Chertoff as homeland security secretary.
Want to go back now to those confirmation hearings of President-elect Barack Obama's nominee for attorney general. We listen now to the chairman, Senator Patrick Leahy.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D), CHAIRMAN, JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: The Supreme Court has now clarified the law in that area. And for those who may wonder the Heller case, the court recognized the personal right to bear arms guaranteed in the Second Amendment of the Constitution, expressly held for the first time that the Bill of Rights includes this right among its guarantees of individual liberty and freedom.
As, I told you, Mr. Holder, I am a gun owner, as a very large percentage of people in my state of Vermont are. My own home in Vermont, I enjoy target shooting. And before anybody asks, our nearest neighbor is over a half a mile away, and it's our son. But do you accept and understand that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual right to bear arms?
ERIC HOLDER, NOMINEE FOR ATTORNEY GENERAL: I understand that. The Supreme Court has spoken. The amicus brief that I signed on to recited the history of the Justice Department's positions that had been taken prior to the Heller decision.
Also expressed the belief in that amicus briefing was signed by a number of other Justice Department officials that it was our view, looking at the Second Amendment, and looking at the applicable case law, that the Second Amendment did not confer an individual right. The reality is now that the Supreme Court has spoken, and that is now the law of the land. I respect the Supreme Court's decision, and my actions as attorney general, should I be confirmed, will be guided by that Supreme Court decision.
LEAHY: Last year, for the first time in our history, this committee reported media shield legislation, a bipartisan 15-4 vote in the Senate -- in the committee. This legislation, provided qualified privilege, allows journalists to maintain confidentiality of their sources. There are reasonable exceptions of course, to prevent terrorism and protect national security and personal safety.
If you're confirmed attorney general, will you work with both Republicans and Democrats on this committee on a federal media shield law? HOLDER: Yes, I will, Mr. Chairman. It is my belief that a carefully crafted law to shield the press in the way that you have described is appropriate. Now, there are concerns that I'm sure will be expressed by people in the Justice Department. I want to talk to the career folks in the department.
I'd also want to ensure that with the passage of any law that we will still have the capacity to protect the national security and to prosecute any leaks of intelligence and information that might occur. But with those caveats and with the ability to interact with people in the department, I am in favor of the concept of such a law.
LEAHY: Now, you're very familiar with the Justice Department's office of legal counsel that's supposed to provide fair, impartial and independent legal advice for the executive branch. Now, the press reports and our own hearings have shown that they have -- it's been used most recently to advance extreme theories of executive power. We've seen it in torture, warrantless wiretapping and so on.
Will you, if you are confirmed as attorney general, commit to undertake a comprehensive review of all OLC opinions currently in effect, and to correct and withdraw any that have what appear to be incorrect or problematic analyses. Understand these opinions really carry and date back to a weight of law throughout the executive branch.
HOLDER: Yes. I will make that pledge. It is important that these OLC opinions, which are so important, and as you describe, that they truly reflect what the law is, that they reflect our values. And I want to ensure that any OLC opinions that are in effect are consistent with those two purposes.
Now, I'll do so respecting the fact that OLC respects the notion of stare decisis. We don't change OLC opinions simply because a new administration takes over.
The review that we would conduct would be a substantive one, and would reflect the best opinions of probably the best lawyers in the department as to where the law should be, what their opinions should be. It will not be a political process. It will be one based solely on our interpretation of the law.
LEAHY: Thank you. Now, some senators following and including commentators like Karl Rove have spoken extensively about your role in the pardon of fugitive Mark Rich at the end of President Clinton's second term. (INAUDIBLE) very critical of that pardon at the time, notwithstanding the president's constitutional right to pardon people.
Probably have been critical of a number of different presidents' use of that constitutional right. You have also publicly said you wish you had handled the issue differently. Details of this matter have been exhaustively hashed out in several Congressional hearings. The Congress has spent millions of dollars looking into this. You appeared voluntarily and repeatedly to testify on the matter, something we haven't seen from officials of the current administration. So, I want to give you a chance to address this suggestion by some that based on your actions, you're not independent. You will not be able to say no to a president who might nominate you. I have a two- part question to you. How do you respond to those who say the Mark Rich pardon shows you do not have the character to be an independent attorney general, and what did you learn from that experience?
HOLDER; As I indicated in my opening statement, I made mistakes. And my conduct, my actions in the Rich matter was a place where I made mistakes. I have never said anything other than that. I appeared before two Congressional committees and said nothing but that. I've accepted the responsibility of making those mistakes.
I've never tried to hide. I've never tried to blame anybody else. What I've always said was that, given my -- given the opportunity to do it differently, I certainly would have. I should have made sure that everybody, all of the prosecutors in that case were informed of what was going on. I made assumptions that turned out not to be true.
I should have not spoken to the White House and expressed an opinion without knowing all of the facts with regard to that matter. That was and remains the most intense, most searing experience I've ever had as a lawyer. There were questions raised about me that I was not used to hearing.
I've learned from that experience. I think that as perverse as this might sound, I will be a better attorney general, should I be confirmed, having had the Mark Rich experience. I've learned that I have to ensure that there is full consultation with all of the prosecutors who are involved in those kinds of matters. I can't assume that that, in fact, will happen. I have to make sure that it happens.
I think we have to work to improve the pardon process within the Department of Justice. It appears that at the end of every administration, there seems to be a deterioration in the process. And so, I think we have to work on the Justice Department's side to make sure that the rules and regulations are followed.
It was something that I think is not typical of the way in which I've conducted myself as a careful, thoughtful lawyer. As I said, it's something where I made mistakes, and I learned from those mistakes.
LEAHY: And, of course, the pardon was issued by President Clinton, not by you. But what I'm going to do, and I talked this over with Senator Specter, obviously, Senator Specter is next. I will then recognize senators by seniority back and forth in the usual way, if they are here. If a senator misses their turn, then they would be put in the next time they appear. Senator Specter?
SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R), PENNSYLVANIA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Holder, pursuing the issue of the Rich pardon, you are a high-level professional, outstanding record, no doubt about your professional judgment. And the comment that it's a mistake is one way of approaching it. But when you take a look at the hard facts, it's a little hard for me to see how you came to the conclusion you did, even conceding the fact that none of us is perfect. In the Rich matter, he was charged with trading with the enemy. He reached a deal with the Khomeini regime during the Iranian hostage crisis to purchase Iranian oil in exchange for arms, automatic rifles and handheld rockets.
He was involved in trading with the Soviet -- with Iranian oil to the apartheid government, reprehensible apartheid government, in exchange for Namibian uranium, which was sold back to the Soviet Union. Reportedly involved with Castro's efforts to escalate its nuclear war program in 1991. And with respect to a uranium deposit in western Cuba, he contributed very large sums to the Democratic Party, $867,000, Clinton library, $450,000, $63,000-plus to others.
And in this context, the House committee found that you recommended Jack Quinn, had told Jack Quinn who was former White House counsel he did not have to provide a copy of the petition, and that he could go directly to the White House, which circumvented the normal pardon procedures. And you had the pardon attorneys opposed to it. Margaret Love said no. The House committee came to these conclusions.
The preponderance of the evidence indicates that Eric Holder was deliberately assisting Quinn with a Rich petition and deliberately cut the rest of the Justice Department out of the process to help Quinn obtain the pardon for Mark Rich. This conclusion is supported by an e-mail sent by Quinn to Kitty Behan and others three days before Quinn's meeting with Holder on November 21st.
And this is the confirmation e-mail: Subject, Eric (ph). Quote, "Spoke to him last evening. He says, go straight to the White House. Also says timing is good and shd" -- should -- "get in soon. Will elab" -- elaborate -- "when we speak." Now, I've had some experience with fugitives, and when you deal with a fugitive, it seems to me you focus on an extradition warrant. Given the background of this man, it's hard to brush it off, it seems to me, as a mistake.
The guy had a reprehensible record. The guy was a fugitive. The indicators are a House finding that you were very heavily involved, and yet you testified you were only casually involved. A question of candor on that comment. And then you had a president who obviously wanted to grant a pardon.
Now, if this were some underling or somebody who wasn't too bright, wasn't too experienced, I would slough it off as a mistake. But given your experience and your background and your competency and the surrounding circumstance of President Clinton looking for a cover, how do you explain it beyond simply, "it's a mistake"?
HOLDER: Well, I don't mean to minimize what I did by calling it a mistake, or mistakes. And, in fact, I take what I did seriously. And I have expressed regret for what I did consistently. I would not take as gospel everything that is contained in that House report. And we can certainly talk about the various things that they have said that I dispute.
SPECTER: Well, what do you disagree with?
HOLDER: Well, for instance, this notion that I recommended Mr. Quinn to the gentlemen I was sitting next to at a dinner. I mean, I think, first, there's...
SPECTER: What did happen?
HOLDER: ... well, first, there's a matter, fundamental fairness. I voluntarily appeared before that committee and was never asked that question. And yet that appeared in the report. If you look at even the material that's contained in that report, you will see that after I supposedly made this recommendation to a person who I did not know, and according to the report, I said, you go hire a lawyer, that person comes to me, and we'll work it out.
Now, I, as deputy attorney general, according to this report, would have said to a perfect stranger, you come to me with a lawyer, and we'll work it out. I don't know what --
SPECTER: What happened as to Quinn? OK, you weren't asked about it. But did you recommend Quinn? What are the facts, aside from what the House says?
HOLDER: I did not recommend Mr. Quinn, and, again, if you look at the report, you will see that the people who were trying to determine who a lawyer would be for Mr. Rich spent six months, interviewed a whole host of people after this dinner that I attended before they decided on the representation. They interviewed a number of people in addition to Mr. Quinn before they made that decision.
SPECTER: Well, you refer to a dinner. There has been a report that at that dinner, you pointed to Quinn as a person to represent Rich. Is that not true?
HOLDER: That is not correct.
SPECTER: What is correct?
HOLDER: I had a conversation with a gentleman, and he asked about what happens if somebody has a problem with the Justice Department. And I think as best I can remember, all I did was explain to him how the process worked, that there were levels of review, levels of appellate review, for lack of a better term, review within the department.
If somebody has an issue with somebody in the field, there are measures that you can take with the person in the field, and that the Justice Department in Washington, D.C. Has ultimate responsibility for the conduct of the Justice Department, including those parts of the department that are in the field.
SPECTER: Are you saying that Quinn's never -- name never came up?
HOLDER: No, did not. And if you look at the minority component of the report, there is some question as to whether or not the gentleman whose name I now remember, Mr. Kecks (ph), even said what the majority says that he did say.
SPECTER: Is it true that you told Quinn after he was in the case that he did not have to provide you with a copy of the petition?
HOLDER: No. I think if you are referring to Mr. Quinn's e-mail that says I told him to go straight to the White House, that did not occur.
SPECTER: Well, there's a separate point, a separate point that Quinn testified to that you said in response to his offer to provide a copy of the Rich pardon petition, that you said you didn't have to. Those are the issues to whether anybody else in the department would have known about it.
HOLDER: Yes. I'm sorry, now I understand what you're -- yes. At a meeting that we had, I believe in November, Mr. Quinn indicated that that's what I told him after we had had a meeting on something else. I don't remember that conversation, but I've never disputed that I might have said that to Mr. Quinn, because I worked under the assumption that was true that pardon applications that were filed in the White House were routinely sent to the Justice Department.
The White House sent matters for pardons -- referrals for pardons to the Justice Department, because they are supposed to originate with the pardon attorney at the Justice Department.
SPECTER: How do you explain this e-mail, and I acknowledge it's not your e-mail, but it's a contemporaneous e-mail which Quinn sent, saying -- corroborating, at least as far as he's concerned your statement, go directly to the White House, circumvent Department of Justice. How do you explain that?
HOLDER: It's difficult for me to explain that. I never told Mr. Quinn to go straight to the White House. That would have been in some ways illogical, given the fact that things that went to the White House would come to the Justice Department in any case.
I don't know what Mr. Quinn -- where he got that from. I don't know if, you know, a conversation I had with him, he misinterpreted something that I said. But I never told him, go straight to the White House with that pardon application.
SPECTER: Were you aware, Mr. Holder, of the atrocious record that Rich had in dealing with Khomeini and the Iranians and a (INAUDIBLE) nation and arms in exchange for oil and rockets? Were you aware of this kind of a record this man had?
HOLDER: No, I was not. And that was one of the mistakes that I made. I did not really acquaint myself with his record. I knew that the matter involved, it was a tax-fraud case. It was a substantial tax- fraud case. I knew that he was a fugitive, but did I not know a lot of the underlying facts that you have described. And as I said, that was a mistake.
SPECTER: One last question on this round.
LEAHY: I'll give you extra time for that, but that will -- I am going to try to keep close to the time on this. Go ahead.
SPECTER: One last question. When the pardon attorney, Margaret Love, said, don't do it, did you ask her why she said that, which would have been an avenue to find out what an atrocious record this man has?
HOLDER: Well, Senator, with all due respect, Margaret Love was not the pardon attorney at the time that this matter was being considered, and the pardon attorney who was present at the time, Mr. Adams, never made -- expressed an opinion about this, again because he didn't have the material in front of him.
SPECTER: I'll come back to this.
HOLDER: Thank you.
LEAHY: Senator Kohl.
SEN. HERB KOHL (D), WISCONSIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
COLLINS: All right. Quickly going to jump in here as we continue to watch the confirmation hearings of President-elect Barack Obama's nominee for attorney general, Eric Holder. We've been listening to questions by the chairman, Patrick Leahy, and also the ranking member, Arlen Specter, there. Obviously asking a whole lot of questions about Mark Rich and the pardon of the fugitive financier that Eric Holder gave as deputy attorney general to President Clinton.
So, there will be much more on this. And you can continue to watch if you would like to, cnn.com. You can have more of those live events taking place.
Meanwhile, we are waiting for President Bush on his last few stops, saying some final farewells. We expect that he will be saying goodbye to the State Department, if you will, and giving a foreign-policy achievements speech. That will be coming up in just a little while. So we are waiting for him to arrive at the State Department.
Also, a vote later today we are expecting on the bailout funds, the remainder of them, that $350 billion that is still yet to be doled out. A whole lot going on today. We'll be back in just a moment, live from Capitol Hill.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COLLINS: Quickly, I want to let you know a little bit more about what I mentioned just a few moments ago here. You see President Bush there at the State Department. They're getting ready to introduce him, and he is getting ready to go to the microphones there. He's going to be commemorating some foreign policy achievements, again, at the State Department today.
This is all part of his farewell speeches, if you will. Obviously, another one of those taking place tonight in prime time. You can see it live right here on CNN at 8 p.m.
Also watching several confirmation hearings taking place right now on Capitol Hill. We have been showing you a good chunk of Eric Holder's hearing this hour. He is President-elect Barack Obama's choice for attorney general. Some interesting moments there.
Also, former Obama campaign manager Susan Rice facing some questions today. She was picked to be the next U.S. ambassador to the United Nations. Then, the Senate Banking Committee hearing from Mary Shapiro, the former SEC commissioner now nominated to head the Securities and Exchange Commission.
Also on the Hill today, Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano. Barack Obama has chosen Napolitano to replace Michael Chertoff as homeland security secretary.
Showdown in the Senate. A vote today could block the release of the remaing federal bailout funds, at least for a while, and that could put a roadblock in Barack Obama's plan for the economy. CNN's Dana Bash now has more on this. Another big thing that's happening today, Dana.
But before we get to TARP, we are just seeing the blueprint now also for the stimulus package, a completely different pile of money, if you will. What can you tell us about it?
DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: A different pile of money, but a huge, huge pile of taxpayer money that the Congress is talking about spending in order to jump-start the economy. And I'll tell you what it is. And this is coming out from the House Democrats, and actually, will be formally unveiled later today. And it is done in close consultation with the incoming Obama administration.
It is $825 billion overall. That's right, $825 billion. We're talking almost a trillion dollars here. And 550 will be spending, spending on infrastructure, on highways, on education, and on health care. But there will be $275 billion on tax cuts.
And inside these tax cuts is, I think, a little bit of a lesson for Barack Obama that he isn't going to get everything he wants from his fellow Democrats on Capitol Hill, because one of the things he campaigned on was a $3,000 tax credit for businesses if they give people jobs. That's not in here, Heidi. And that is because as we have been talking about, I think for about a week now, fellow Democrats here thought that was simply not something that would stimulate the economy.
Now, there are other tax provisions that Obama campaigned on that are in here, but this is something that has been worked on day and night behind the scenes with Democrats and with people from -- with Obama's economic aides. And now it will be formally unveiled and will begin to go through the process in the House in order to get to the president-elect, they hope here in Congress, sometime in February -- Heidi?
COLLINS: All right. Boy, a lot going on where you are today. That is for sure. Dana Bash, we'll be waiting to hear more about that vote later on today, as you said. Thanks so much, Dana.
BASH: Thank you.
COLLINS: I'm Heidi Collins. You can join us again tomorrow morning beginning at 9 a.m. Eastern. For now, CNN NEWSROOM continues with Tony Harris.
