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Obama Speaks to Muslim World; Obama Meets With Republican Lawmakers
Aired January 27, 2009 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Let's cut to the change.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Here's what I think is important.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Not your enemies. And he gives this piece of advice to his Middle East envoy: Stop dictating. Start listening, a major change in approach.
Cut to the change number two: The Obama administration tells financially struggling Citigroup it is unacceptable for them to take delivery of a new $50 million corporate jet.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ (voice-over): Cutting to the change.
OBAMA: The Americans are not your enemy.
SANCHEZ: His first sit-down interview goes to a Muslim network. That's how serious President Obama seems to be about beating Osama bin Laden at his own game, winning the worldwide P.R. battle.
TIMOTHY GEITHNER, TREASURY SECRETARY: So help me God.
SANCHEZ: The U.S. has a new treasury secretary. Could there be a more important job at this time in this administration? We will tell you what his plan is for you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")
GOV. ROD BLAGOJEVICH (D), ILLINOIS: And I'm champing at the bit and dying to show my innocence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: And Hispanics call it a hard face (SPEAKING SPANISH) doing something that would embarrass most, but not these guys. They just smile and lay on the charm, while the rest of us wonder, how could they?
What you say during this daily national conversation where we cut to the change now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: From the world headquarters of CNN here in Atlanta, I'm Rick Sanchez.
Patricia Murphy joins us now from CitizenJanePolitics.com to help us cut to the change.
Some remarkable developments today. First, you have the president of the United States telling a private business, as private as you can be nowadays with these bailouts that have been going on, telling Citigroup that it's -- quote -- "unacceptable" to take that $50 million or $45 million plane that they had ordered.
How unusual is it, Patricia, for the president of the United States to tell a private company what they should or should not buy?
PATRICIA MURPHY, EDITOR, CITIZENJANEPOLITICS.COM: Well, it's basically unprecedented. But it's also unprecedented that the U.S. government, meaning and including me, and you, and President Obama, we are shareholders in that bank.
And so he is saying to this bank, you need to be more careful with the way you're spending taxpayer dollars. This gets back to the fact that the TARP money, $45 billion invested in that bank, nobody knows where it's gone, no transparency whatsoever.
So, the U.S. government now is saying to these banks, we're going to assume that every dollar you spend is taxpayer dollars and needs to be treated as such, until you either tell us where it went or until we enact stricter rules to tell you where it's going to go in the future.
SANCHEZ: That gets into some real dangerous area. It's almost like the government telling a corporation, we own you.
You know what that has people talking -- people like Rush Limbaugh are going to be say, hey, that's nationalizing. That's socialism. Some will even say perhaps that's communism.
MURPHY: But we do own them. Every taxpayer owns a portion of that bank and any other bank that has TARP funds. We gave them taxpayer money in exchange for equity in their companies.
It was a minority stake, but, because of taxpayer dollars -- that's public money -- these banks need to be more accountable for where that money is going and more transparent as to where it's already gone. Obama has said he is going to work with Timothy Geithner to ask those banks and demand from those banks really more accountability and transparency. We will see that going forward.
SANCHEZ: You know, you talk about change. You know what this? You know what this is? I will tell you, because every day we have been focusing on what's different between what we're doing now and what we were doing for the last eight years. How about the fact that you have a president of the United States telling business what to do? I mean, are we sending a message to other fat cats out there that from, now on, the president's not going to be rolling over?
MURPHY: The message is, basically, there's a new sheriff in town.
And the minute that Obama was sworn into office, his first call, really to the entire country, was more responsibility, more corporate responsibility, more personal responsibility. This is the corporate responsibility he was talking about.
So, not only -- when you get taxpayer money, companies, you are going to have a much greater responsibility about telling us where that money goes. And you have to spend it wisely. You cannot buy another corporate jet. You cannot go on vacations. You cannot redecorate your office for more than $1 million if a portion of that is coming from taxpayers. There's basically a new sheriff in town. That's the message.
SANCHEZ: Boy, there's a shocker. You shouldn't be using this money for your own good or for your own business' good, especially if it's coming from the people of the United States.
Here's something else that has developed today. This is interesting. Barack Obama, while seeming bold with all his other projections about the world and about terrorism and about torture and about big business, as you and I discussed, is courting Republicans, literally courting them.
I want you and our viewers to listen to what was said by Republicans after they came out of a meeting today with Barack Obama. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: We had a very good conversation with the president.
REP. CATHY MCMORRIS RODGERS (R), WASHINGTON: House Republicans sincerely appreciate the president coming and meeting with us. We are inspired and challenged to work harder.
REP. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: We are grateful for the outreach from the White House.
BOEHNER: But I think our members enjoyed the conversation. I think the president enjoyed the conversation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Sounds like a love affair.
(LAUGHTER) MURPHY: Well, except there's not much going on in the backroom. They did not come to any particular agreement. Republicans have actually dug in their heels here.
They're basically saying they're not going to support this package when it's voted on tomorrow in the House. They do think they can come to some agreement once the Senate passes it and they get some more Republican stamp on the package right now.
But Obama -- this is so important -- he wants the Republicans to own this bill. He wants them to go home to their districts and sell it. He wants them to get American buy-in. This is a massive, massive spending and tax cut package. He doesn't want it just to be a Democratic bill.
SANCHEZ: But just to get the thing through, he doesn't really need them. Why -- you know, 71,000 jobs lost yesterday, that's incredible. Just wrap your head around that number, one day, 71,000 jobs.
Does Obama really need to be playing the little bipartisan game to get something through, when he's got both houses of Congress on his side?
MURPHY: Well, he doesn't need to. And that's why it's so interesting that he's choosing to do so. He's putting himself out there for a potential rejection by the Republicans.
If this doesn't work, if the Republicans reject it, if they delay it, then they're going to have a little bit of explaining to do themselves. He wants to -- he really wants to send a message. This is genuine. He wants bipartisan support on this.
But this is because it's all about creating confidence in the economy. If you have half of the Congress out there complaining about this bill, saying it won't work, it makes it that much harder for it to work when it's passed.
SANCHEZ: Murph, thanks so much. You're good. Always appreciate talking to you.
MURPHY: Thanks.
SANCHEZ: You tell it like it is.
President Obama taking on Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda, doing battle directly with them on virgin territory. What do we mean by virgin territory? Telling Muslims around the world, we are not their enemies -- that's a direct quote -- by the way, and that we want to listen to them.
What would have been blasphemy a few years ago is now policy? Talk about change. CNN's Michael Ware is going to be joining us in just a little bit. We are going to have that discussion with him.
And so will one of the nation's foremost experts on Muslim studies.
Oh, and, by the way, just in, those wiretaps of Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich, they're playing them now for the very first time at his impeachment trial. We're going to dip in, so you will be able to hear them as they're played as well.
Stay with us. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez here in the world headquarters of CNN.
Talk about change. Barack Obama decides that he's going to sit down and talk to a television network about his plans for the world, for his foreign policy, for his dealings with Muslims around the world and the perception thereof. So, does he sit down with CNN, ABC, FOX, maybe MSNBC? Does he sit down with NBC or CNN or -- pardon me -- CBS? No.
He sits down with a Muslim network to have this discussion. Here now, part of his conversation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: We can have legitimate disagreements, but still be respectful. I cannot respect terrorist organizations that would kill innocent civilians, and we will hunt them down. But, to the broader Muslim world, what we are going to be offering is a hand of friendship.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: The conversation seems to be a lot about listening and not dictating.
In fact, those are the two exact words that Barack Obama used for his advice to George Mitchell as he goes out to try and be the envoy in the Middle East, to come up with some kind of solutions, words we haven't heard in quite awhile.
Let's go to Professor Fawaz Gerges. He's a professor of Muslim studies.
Good to see you again, professor. How are you?
FAWAZ GERGES, EXPERT ON MIDDLE EASTERN STUDIES, SARAH LAWRENCE COLLEGE: I'm fine. How are you, Rick?
SANCHEZ: Good.
Let's start with what it seems that Barack Obama is trying to do. And that is punch a hole in al Qaeda and bin Laden's argument or their perception around the world. So, let me just be very straight with you. If this were a P.R. war, is bin Laden and al Qaeda winning it? And, if so, how? GERGES: I don't think al Qaeda is winning the war at all.
In fact, I have argued all along that al Qaeda has lost the war on ideas in the last two years. And what Barack Obama is trying to do now is to basically hammer a deadly nail in the coffin of al Qaeda and bin Laden.
SANCHEZ: Well, I'm going to stop you for just a minute and take you on, on that a little bit. Why are little children in places like South Africa gladly wearing and displaying shirts with Osama bin Laden's picture on it if Osama bin Laden is not seen as a hero in much of the Muslim world for defying the United States?
GERGES: Well, Rick, as we know, more than 90 percent of Muslims, according to all the surveys that we have seen, are basically against al Qaeda's tactics.
Of course, you have 7 percent. This amounts to about 99 million Muslims out of the 1.3 million Muslims. Let's focus on what Barack Obama is doing now. Barack Obama, the interview is really part of a concerted effort on the part of the new president to reach out to Muslims, to basically try to repair the bridges of trust with the Muslim world that have been broken in the last six or seven years.
SANCHEZ: Yes. In fact, in fact, I want you to listen to this. This kind of goes right to your argument, because this is the big central part of his message. This is the cut about not being your enemies. Take it, Dan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: My job is to communicate to the American people that the Muslim world is filled with extraordinary people who simply want to live their lives and see their children live better lives. My job to the Muslim world is to communicate that the Americans are not your enemy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Americans are not your enemy. I mean, it's almost like a punch in the nose at the philosophy that I think most Americans perceive that most Muslims perceive, if you follow my drift.
GERGES: You're absolutely correct.
And, really, what Barack Obama has been trying to do since his inauguration is to basically not only reach out to Muslims, but in fact to talk to Muslims, not to preach to Muslims. Not only he said Americans are not your enemy, but he said to them, we have committed mistakes in the past. We own our mistakes. We are trying to do -- really approach a new beginning.
And it's a very, very promising beginning, in particular because Barack Obama is using all the sources at his disposal. It's the first time, Rick, that he's basically using his Muslim roots. He said, listen, I have members of my families who are practicing Muslims. I lived in Muslim countries.
And this is really powerful, powerful rhetoric, because it resonates deeply in the Muslim world.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But...
GERGES: Yes.
SANCHEZ: But does it resonate enough to battle -- here's the problem. It's not enough to have someone like you. I think there's plenty of people in the Muslim world who don't like the United States. And I think most Americans say we kind of get that.
But respect, trust, and fear are important. Have we in the last seven years gained or lost trust, respect and fear among Muslims in the world?
GERGES: Rick, this is a great question. We have lost a great deal of respect.
In fact, there is a widespread perception in the Muslim world that the United States is waging a war against Islam and Muslims. There's a great deal of suspicion, of skepticism, of mistrust of the United States.
And this is why Barack Obama, in the last, you know, few weeks, he has been trying to stress the idea that our relationship will be based in common interests, will be based on respect, will be based on trust. He is trying to really rebuild the bridges of trust that...
(CROSSTALK)
GERGES: ... broken.
SANCHEZ: Will that make us safer? Because George Bush would tell you, you know what, nobody hit us after 9/11 as long as I was president. Will this policy make us safer? Your estimation? Your read?
GERGES: Absolutely. Not only this particular policy will make the United States safer. This particular policy will go a long way to answering some of the skepticism and mistrust in the Muslim world.
This particular policy will go a long way to repairing the bridges of trust with the Muslim world. This particular policy will go a long way to hammering a lethal nail in the coffin of al Qaeda once and for all. This particular policy will address some of the issues in the Muslim world.
By the way, Rick, Barack Obama is not just talking about rhetoric. He's saying, I will address some of the most pivotal issues that pose in relations between the Muslim world and the United States. I will try to address the Palestine-Israeli issues. I will basically -- the United States will not torture. Basically, the United States will live up according to its values. I will pull out of Iraq and basically fill this particular gap in relations.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
GERGES: So, in this particular sense, Barack Obama is not just talking the talk. Barack Obama is promising to basically revisit American foreign policy...
SANCHEZ: And walk the walk.
GERGES: ... and make a major discontinuity rupture with his predecessor, W. Bush.
SANCHEZ: Professor Fawaz Gerges, thank you, sir.
GERGES: Pleasure.
SANCHEZ: You know your stuff. We appreciate your time.
By the way, while we were talking, many of you have been reaching us and letting us know what you think about this.
Let's pick it up with Twitter, if we can. Johnny B. Goode, let's go over there.
This is spedboss, who is saying: "Look, ignoring the Muslim world didn't work for the past eight years. We need to look at our common bond."
And then yamandou says: "We finally have" -- just below that -- "We finally have a head of state."
Now, Maria's watching us, too. She's on the air. She's joining us on MySpace there by the yellow background, as Chris Hall (ph) always tells me. She writes: "You know, I love you, Barack, but he's acting only like Muslim people understand the situation."
She's being critical of the president. We thank you for your comment, by the way.
Can you believe what some people say with a straight face? I want you to consider this. Whatever happened to being embarrassed when you're caught up in a difficult situation. I'm going to take a look at narcissism in high places, Blagojevich, Mr. Clinton, Larry Craig, Casey Anthony -- the narcissism hit parade when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back.
We have got some breaking news that is coming in to us now. Apparently, for the very first time, we're going to be able to hear some of the taped, secretly taped conversation from Governor Rod Blagojevich's office.
This conversation is with the governor and his brother. His brother's name is Robert, by the way. We're going to be also joined here in just a little bit by Ashleigh Banfield and Kendall Coffey, who are going to try and help us make sense of this. So, stay with us.
The first thing I want you to listen to at home is this conversation. Don't know how long it is. We will all listen to it together. Again, the Robert you're going to hear on there is the governor's brother.
Go ahead. Roll it, Dan.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: How are we doing?
ROBERT BLAGOJEVICH, BROTHER OF GOVERNOR ROD BLAGOJEVICH: Good.
I talked to Lon. And he says Johnny Johnston's good for it.
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: (INAUDIBLE)
ROBERT BLAGOJEVICH: He's going to give you -- no, he didn't get it, but he's -- he says, you know, I'm good for it. I have got to just decide what account to get it out of. And Lon is going to talk to you about some sensitivities legislatively tonight when he sees you with regard to timing of all of this.
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: Right, before the end of the year, though, right?
ROBERT BLAGOJEVICH: Oh, yes, yes. yes. So, there was no waffling there. It's just that we have got to -- we have just got to figure it out. And so he will give you the specific details.
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: Oh, good. He's going to be there tonight, right?
ROBERT BLAGOJEVICH: He's going with you. It's a basketball game?
(CROSSTALK)
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: Yes, with the...
ROBERT BLAGOJEVICH: Yes. He knew it was United Center. Wasn't sure what the venue was, but...
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: Good.
(CROSSTALK)
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: OK. So, but clearly before the end of the year, right?
ROBERT BLAGOJEVICH: Yes. Yes.
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: So, he's down there right now with him lobbying on a bill?
ROBERT BLAGOJEVICH: He was with him last night. And he's still down there.
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: Yes, they're pushing a bill. So, that's probably what we will have to wait on.
ROBERT BLAGOJEVICH: Well, whatever. I think that's probably likely. He didn't get into detail with me.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: We just got some information. I can fill in some of the blanks on this.
You heard some very important conversations here about what account, and he's good for it, clearly before the end the year, key phrases there. Now we heard that Lon -- you heard the name Lon being mentioned there -- Lon, that's Lon Monk. He's a horseracing businessman. The other people you heard, as I said, was Robert, the governor -- and the governor. Robert is the governor's brother, by the way.
All right, Ashleigh Banfield, Kendall Coffey, both of you I understand are on the line. Try to make us make -- can you put this in -- I guess, Kendall, you're a U.S. prosecutor, have been for many years. Can you put this in perspective? Is there anything you hear there that says, oh, my goodness, this is a bit of a smoking gun?
KENDALL COFFEY, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, it sure sounds like a payoff. It sure sounds like some dots need to be connected. But this would be a fabulous centerpiece if they can hook it up to the other missing pieces.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: In other words, the conversation by itself isn't enough, is it?
COFFEY: It's not enough.
It sounds like some kind of money from some kind of accounts going to somebody with reference to a legislative manager. And you hear this before the end of the year, before the end of the year. I mean, it's the greed factor. But you have got to put some more pieces together. Even if it's a powerful piece, it's only one piece of the puzzle.
SANCHEZ: Ashlee Banfield, your take on this. Anything to add?
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, TRUTV ANCHOR: What I find fascinating is that, if this were put in front of a criminal jury, there's a lot of reasonable doubt, just with these four tapes that were played.
But we're not in front of a criminal jury.
SANCHEZ: Right.
BANFIELD: We are in front of the Senate, which has a whole different standard of proof. It's left up to each senator. So, it's plenty. It's actually plenty.
And Kendall knows this story as well. But this is what is fascinating, is the foreshadowing for the criminal trial that is to come, because we're only seeing a very small part of what was recorded in these four small excerpts that the federal prosecutors allowed. I think we're going to see a lot more coming down the pike.
SANCHEZ: Well, sure. And the viewers have to be cautious. And I'm sure both of you would say to them, look, if you listen to somebody say he's good for it and it's in his account and he's going to have that by the end of the year, well, then you have to have that guy testify in front of a jury to say, that's what I meant. I meant money that he was owed vis-a-vis blah, blah, blah.
So, there's a lot -- this is just the skeleton. There is no meat on these bones yet. By the way, there is another one that has just come in. I'm looking at this now, Johnny. Let me see if there's anything I need to tell the viewer and these guys as we go to it.
Again, this is coming to us now, to be totally transparent, just as we speak. This is a conversation with Lon. Again, Lon Monk is a horseracing businessman, who seems to be having a conversation here with the governor, secretly recorded wiretaps. And you're going to be listening to them right now.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: Hey, Lon.
LON MONK, BUSINESSMAN: How are you?
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: Good.
MONK: So, one thing I was thinking about last night is that you ought to give, not today, but maybe tomorrow, just give John Johnston a call and say, you know, calling just to say hello. You know, I'm working on the timing of this thing, but it's going to get done.
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: ... tomorrow?
MONK: It's a two-minute conversation.
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: Yes, happy to do it. Call him tomorrow, right?
MONK: Yes.
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: OK. Call Johnny Johnston, or should I go ahead and have Harris (ph) call him? You want me to call him directly, I will, whatever is the best (INAUDIBLE) I'm just a little bit...
MONK: I think it's better if you do it.
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: OK.
MONK: It's better if you do it, just from a pressure point of view.
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: Yes. Good. I will call him and say, yes, and we want to do an event downstate.
MONK: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: ... that we want to do it, and hope to do this. We can get together and (INAUDIBLE) bill signing, right?
MONK: OK. So, what are the chances based on that conversation with you yesterday that this gets done next week?
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: You know, they're good.
MONK: OK.
He's -- I'm telling you, he's going to be good for it. I got in his face.
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: OK. Well, I feel -- I feel like that somebody else is holding him back.
MONK: No.
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: Will he quit?
MONK: No. No.
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: Well, what took, you know, a whole year? You know what I mean?
Hey, Lon?
MONK: No, I don't think he's been talking to Chris (ph). I don't think he's been talking to Chris.
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: OK.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Let me bring Kendall Coffey into this.
This is amazing. First of all, you know what I'm stunned by? The clarity of these conversations. I have listened to -- Kendall, I have listened to wiretaps where you could barely make out every third word.
These guys sound like they're in a recording studio. Maybe that's just how good the equipment has gotten lately. Your comment on that, but also this. And, Ashleigh, I know you're standing by. There's so much to talk about on this. When people are doing these types of things that are alleged to be done here, they don't use direct language. And you do -- do you hear words like this, the timing of this thing, and call him, from a husher point of view?
Do your antennas go up when you hear that as a former prosecutor?
Kendall, you there?
COFFEY: Yes, I'm here.
Of course, pressure point of view is real trouble. But some of the language could go either way. He's going to be good for it, that's used in campaign fund-raising by legitimate folks all the time. So, without a few more pieces, this is questionable, maybe even sleazy, but not stand-alone criminal.
SANCHEZ: So, Ashleigh, I have a feeling you're listening to this. Are you hearing a, you know, dead-bang smoking gun here?
BANFIELD: No, not necessarily. But, again, I don't think we need a smoking gun in a trial like this, because, again, the standard of proof is just so subjective.
And what I'm more concerned with is the ethical considerations that I'm hearing in these sound bites about the timing, trying to get this all in before the end of the year, because there were new ethics violations that were going to be coming into effect, a bill that was going to be signed towards the end of the year.
And this is what the context is that I perhaps see with my somewhat untrained eye is, is that they're trying to ram something through before it becomes really illegal.
(CROSSTALK)
COFFEY: By the way, Rick...
SANCHEZ: Go ahead.
COFFEY: ... every prosecutor in America ought to buy that recording equipment, because you're so right.
(LAUGHTER)
COFFEY: I have never heard anything that clear before.
SANCHEZ: It's amazing. It almost sounds like they're in a recording studio as they listen to this.
Hey, Dan, do you have that first one -- let's listen to that first one again.
Ashleigh, do you have to go?
BANFIELD: I have got about one minute left.
SANCHEZ: All right.
I want you to try and listen to this first one again. This time that we know -- now that we know what we're going to be listening to, let's play it again, maybe with a little keener eye, as this news comes -- those of you just now joining us, it's almost 30 minutes past the hour.
We just received what has been released from the impeachment trial of Rod Blagojevich for the first time, some of the secretly recorded taped conversations that the governor was having with, in one case, his brother, and in this case a business associate in a horseracing business.
Here it is.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: How are we doing?
ROBERT BLAGOJEVICH: Good.
I talked to Lon. And he says Johnny Johnston's good for it.
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: (INAUDIBLE)
ROBERT BLAGOJEVICH: He's going to give you -- no, he didn't get it, but he's -- he said, you know, I'm good for it. I just have to decide what -- what account to get it out of. And Lon's going to talk to you about some sensitivities legislatively tonight when he sees you, with regard to timing of all of this.
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: Right.
Before the end of the year, though, right?
ROBERT BLAGOJEVICH: Oh, yes. Yes, yes, yes. So...
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: (INAUDIBLE).
ROBERT BLAGOJEVICH: There was no waffling there. It's just that, you know, we've got to -- we've just got to figure it out. So he'll give you the specific details.
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: Oh, good.
He's going to be there tonight, right?
ROBERT BLAGOJEVICH: He's going with you.
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: Yes.
ROBERT BLAGOJEVICH: It's a basketball game?
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: Yes, with the... ROBERT BLAGOJEVICH: Yes. Yes, he knew it was the United Center. He wasn't sure what the venue was, but...
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: Good.
OK, so, but clearly, before the end of the year, right?
ROBERT BLAGOJEVICH: Yes. Yes.
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: And he's down there right now with him lobbying on a bill.
ROBERT BLAGOJEVICH: He was with him last night and he's still down there.
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: Yes. They're pushing a bill. So that's probably what he wants to wait on.
ROBERT BLAGOJEVICH: Well, whatever. I mean, I think that's probably likely. He didn't get into detail with me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Hear anything the second time around, Ashleigh, you maybe didn't pick up the first time?
Anything hit you on this?
BANFIELD: I'm actually getting a transcript as we speak. You know, look, I think some of this language, without question, is just not ethically going to sit well with most of the senators -- if not all of the senators in that body. If we're talking about the process that's underway right now, none of this looks good.
But you know what, I think we all knew that going in.
Down the road, in the criminal investigation, I'd need a whole lot more context before a criminal jury is going to say reasonable doubt or not.
SANCHEZ: You know, and Kendall Coffey, you know, I've seen you in court dealing with cases like this where you've taken on not just public corruption, but you were down there at a time when there were probably more drug deals than anyplace in the history of the world and you've had to make cases with tape recordings like this.
What do you do next?
What does a Fitzgerald do?
OK, he recorded this, right?
And he has a conversation. It sounds like they may or may not be talking about something that's illegal.
How do you make it stick? COFFEY: Well, here's the -- here's the magic of a recording. Even if 90 percent of the evidence is going to be he said/she said or stuff that maybe even informants or cooperators are providing to them, if they can put in that magic linkage for just that 10 percent with Blagojevich's own voice -- kowabonga (ph). That creates a really powerful presentation, because it sounds sleazy. And, sure, they could try to make up a scenario where it is maybe campaign fundraising, because all that money has to be rushed in by the end of the year -- the end of the quarter, too, sometimes.
But when you put that voice -- those words that could be either criminal or could maybe have some less culpable explanation -- together with the rest of the package, it's powerful stuff and it can be conviction stuff -- not just an impeachment proceeding, but maybe down the road in a criminal trial.
BANFIELD: Hey, Rick...
SANCHEZ: Yes, because what the...
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: I want to add to what Kendall was saying.
SANCHEZ: Hey, Ashleigh, by the way, the threat -- we need to say this to our viewers, because it's something we haven't -- my fault. I haven't talked enough about this. The threshold in the impeachment trial is different than in a federal case, right?
BANFIELD: Oh, yes.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
BANFIELD: Huge. I mean huge.
I mean you've heard of the differences in these thresholds, right?
You've heard of reasonable doubt in a criminal case and you've heard of preponderance of the evidence in a civil case.
SANCHEZ: Right.
BANFIELD: Well, here, it's each individual senator gets to make up his or her own mind as to the standard of proof.
SANCHEZ: Huh.
BANFIELD: So it's a whole other kettle of fish here.
And can I just say this, that nothing in any of these regards have I heard today has anything to do with selling a Senate seat, which is the reason that Governor Blagojevich wanted to subpoena Rahm Emanuel, Valerie Jarrett, etc.
Now, that doesn't mean that they're not talking about that. They're reading the actual, you know, federal transcripts, which doesn't sound good for his case. But just interestingly enough, the sound bites...
SANCHEZ: Yes.
BANFIELD: ...the clips that they were allowed to play by the federal prosecutors in this trial had nothing to do with the selling of a Senate seat.
SANCHEZ: You're absolutely right. I mean, what we heard from Fitzgerald when he held that famous news conference when we first learned of this had nothing to do with the cases that we're hearing the governor discussing now. And that is a very important point.
My thanks to both of you, Kendall Coffey, and, of course, Ashleigh Banfield, as usual.
By the way, you guys have been weighing in at home on this.
Let's go over to Facebook as you listen to these conversations. We were kind of surprised by it -- it just came to us at the last minute here. Tyler's watching. He says: "We're listening to the tapes like Blago asked us to do." I guess he was watching "The View" yesterday. "Still not seeing how he is innocent."
Any more comments that are coming in -- by the way, let's switch it over to Jenny. JennyJen is watching us, also. She says, on Twitter: "Blago's too late. Why is he still denying it? He should have worked this hard when it comes to the ethics of public service."
So just two of the comments that are coming in thus far.
And, you know, there's something else that we've got to take note of on this today -- something I've been thinking about. It's called una caradura (ph). At least that's what my mother calls it. And, you know, her English is not so good-looking. The translation of this is having a hard face. Caradura (ph) -- hard face.
Now, consider it the ability to do or attempt to do something that would embarrass me or you or most of us, yet some of these people who do these things seem almost unaffected by it.
What am I talking about?
Oh, consider these examples.
Let's say you get caught on tape allegedly shaking down a children's hospital for money or selling a Senate seat or waiting a month to report that your daughter is missing and later being charged in her disappearance or having sex with an intern in an Oval Office or a grown man, a senator, accused of allegedly soliciting sex in a men's bathroom.
And then many of these same people call news conferences, appear on television shows, give interviews, as if nothing happened.
Is this -- and this is a question -- is this bizarre behavior or is it an impressive display of unflappability?
Tell us what you think.
By the way, you can hear the Blago comments, as well, at CNN.com/ricksanchez -- my Web site. We'll have them there for you so you can listen and peruse them yourself.
A White House briefing is coming up in just a couple of minutes.
If it starts on time, it will be in seven minutes.
There's the shot. We'll have it for you in just a little bit.
Stay with us.
What a show.
We'll be right back .
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back.
Boy, so many comments. Just the Blagojevich segment we just did -- which, I'll be honest with you, kind of surprised us. We weren't expecting that to come in. We heard that some of the tapes might be released, but entire conversations like those?
It's a good thing we had some good guests to talk about it, as well. My thanks again to Ashleigh Banfield for joining us from TruTV.
Let's go to your comments real quick, if we can, before we get to the next segment, because tons of you have been writing in.
This is on Twitter.com: "Of course, Blagojevich just needs to give up. It's painful to watch this. Come on, Rick, have you heard of chutzpah before?"
Did I pronounce that right, guys?
I did, didn't I?
"My English is not very good looking. Nice reference to Celia Cruz. You nailed it. You're absolutely right. May she rest in peace."
That's what descanse means there.
Atlanta Recruiter says: "Blago, narcissistic, sociopath, criminal."
All right, let's switch over to Alexander now. He is on Facebook. Switch it around, guys, if you can: "It is not bizarre behavior, it is well thought out scheme -- a plan to appear innocent by going public and saying, hey, if I was guilty, I would not be out in public right now. Reverse psychology at its best."
One more. Alex, just underneath that: "Blago was doing something wrong, but we don't know what it is."
Well, let's talk about this sense of narcissistic behavior a little bit more -- this unflappability, if you want to call it that. This caradura (ph), as my mother calls it. He's not the first to employ this, by the way.
Take a look at this tape that we've put together for you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM JANUARY 26, 1998)
BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I did not have sexual relations with that woman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM AUGUST 31, 2007, COURTESY KBCI)
SEN. LARRY CRAIG (R), IDAHO: I am not gay. I never have been gay.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM "LARRY KING LIVE")
ROD BLAGOJEVICH: If they would allow all those tapes to be heard, that would be excellent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: You know, Patricia Murphy joins us once again from CitizenJanePolitics.com.
Have you been thinking about this the last couple of days?
I mean to see a guy like Blagojevich, who really was caught on tape allegedly saying and scheming some pretty serious things, showing up on "The View," showing up on "The Late Show," on "The Early Show," on the medium and in between shows, what do you make of that?
MURPHY: Well, I think when he is speaking, he really seems to believe what he's saying. And you don't know if it's because it's true or if it's because he just believes it's true. But it does get to a point -- and having been in Washington for so long, you run into a lot of people in politics who are completely narcissistic. There's a healthy level of narcissism that you need to say vote for me, I'm the best person for the job. And then it has a way of becoming very toxic.
And so we've gotten, you know, case after case of -- of it going terribly awry and everybody pays.
SANCHEZ: Are we, as a country, losing something that I think is an important part of who you are?
It's a simple word. It's called shame. And when you're shamed, you don't go out and, you know, as one of my coaches used to say, hang your underwear out. You kind of like -- you know, what is it -- what do the kid -- my kids call it, dad, stay on the down low.
What happened?
It's almost like in this country, he who makes the most noise -- even if they're wrong -- gets the most attention and wins.
MURPHY: Yes. Well, there seems to be a culture of digging in your heels, defending yourself. Nobody in America seems to know how to quit their job anymore. We know that nine out of 10 executives of companies who got the TARP funds are still in their jobs, while hundreds of thousands of their employees have been laid off.
So there does seem to be a disconnect and I think, actually, a real cultural problem of people not being ashamed enough of what they've done, not taking responsibility for what they've done -- certainly no accountability for what they've done -- digging in and taking care of themselves.
I don't know if that's going to change. But I think we certainly have a lot of examples of what not to do.
SANCHEZ: But let me ask you this. And I'm asking this of you and I'm asking this of the people who are watching this newscast right now -- those thousands -- 47,000 people on Twitter and the 15,000 on MySpace and 4,000 on Facebook. And tell me what you think.
MURPHY: OK.
SANCHEZ: When you start to listen to Blago speak and the way he started to put it on yesterday with the ladies on "The View" and Larry King, do you start to buy into it just because of the fact that he's there, so you're thinking, man, he's in front of a camera and he's not freaking out, maybe he's -- maybe he's got something here?
MURPHY: He really doesn't seem to think he did anything wrong. And that he did it -- a lot of questions he did not answer directly. But it does start to make you think, well, do we have any actual evidence?
Did he do anything except say a lot of dirty words and threaten to do things?
Did he do anything?
There's actually not a lot of proof so far. So it does make you wonder. You know he's digging in his heels, a total narcissist. It seems to be working for him. Don't know what's going to happen.
SANCHEZ: So he's doing exactly what he wanted to do.
MURPHY: Yes.
SANCHEZ: And it seems to be, at least in some cases, working.
Murph, thanks so...
MURPHY: Well, he's still got his job.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
Hey, Murph, thanks so much, as usual.
MURPHY: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: A big part of the show, you are.
How about this -- what does Karl Rove have to say about the Bush years?
And can someone finally force him to say it now that President Bush is not there to keep him from saying it -- vis-a-vis testify?
That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: And I welcome you back.
I'm Rick Sanchez here in the World Headquarters of CNN in downtown Atlanta.
Hey, it's a good conversation that we've got going so far. But there's a couple of things that have been going on that I want to let you know about.
First, you heard about the impeachment trial for Blagojevich. And we've been getting some of the tapes being released. And we've been sharing them with you. You can also find those on our Web site. We'll put them there later on for you. Dave Johnson is taking care of that for us. That's at CNN.com/ricksanchez.
Also, any moment now, we're going to have a press briefing from the White House. There are the reporters getting ready to go, to bring you the skinny on what is being said today by Robert Gibbs.
Now, it was supposed to start one minute ago. But they've been running late in the last couple of days and we expect they probably will run late again.
In the meantime, let's move on. Something else that I want you to take note of on this date. When lawmakers wanted Karl Rove to testify in the past about the firings of federal prosecutors who may not have been Republican enough, Rove said I won't show. And he didn't. He didn't show up.
Then, when they wanted to ask him about the prosecution of former Alabama Governor Don Siegelman, a Democrat, Rove said nope, I won't show. And he didn't. He didn't show up.
And President Bush defended Rove and said legally, he didn't have to explain himself on both occasions. So now, it does appear that there is a new sheriff in town, as we heard earlier from Patricia Murphy. And the House Judiciary Committee is now saying, guess what, we're going to ask you again, with this new sheriff.
They want Rove to testify. And this time, the president, who is different, may not be willing or able to protect him. In fact, asked about Rove's use of "immunity" -- it's called absolute immunity, as it was used by Karl Rove in his defense -- as defended, by the way, by Mr. Bush -- President Obama has said this.
I'm going to read this to you: "It is completely misguided."
That's what he says of the Rove defense in the past.
Uh-oh. New sheriff promising change?
There may yet be a gun fight at the OK Corral. And we'll be watching it. As always, you can read our comments on this and other reports at CNN.com/ricksanchez.
By the way, we should be able to dip into that thing going on. Let's go back into that picture, if we can, Dan, to see if there's anything going on. If there is, we'll stay with it. If not, we'll cut away and take our break.
Nope. No signs of anybody walking out yet.
Let's get a break in. And if it happens while we're in commercial, we'll cut out and bring it to you live as it happens.
Stay with us.
I'm Rick Sanchez.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: All right, lots of comments that are coming in.
Welcome back.
I'm Rick Sanchez.
By the way, dip into that picture, if you can, Dan. Apparently it's about to happen now. We've just been given -- in fact, we haven't been given a two minute warning. This thing is going to be happening in about probably one minute, because the warning came about a minute ago. So we'll keep -- hey, you guys in the control room, Angie and them, keep an eye on that thing. Yes, perfect. Thanks.
Meantime, let's get a couple of these -- let's get a couple of -- let's get a couple of these Tweets in. I think we've got some good ones coming in.
These are comments to what we've been talking about. Karl Rove, for example: "It's time that Rove gets what he deserves. And he deserves far more than a subpoena." That coming in just really seconds ago, while we were in the break. "They are asking -- they are requiring the rest of us would not be able to ignore a subpoena. But W.'s DOJ, Department of Justice, didn't enforce laws," says that viewer watching us now.
And Curious1966 says: "Finally, along with change, President Obama will be accountability to the citizens of the United States."
Do we have room for one more?
Let's just say that he can't do any worse than Bush. And I love you and your show."
Well, thank you.
That's nice.
All right. There's a programming note. Let's dip into that shot again to see if get him coming out, by the way.
Oh, oh, let's go.
You want to go to that?
Let's go to the MySpace, if we can. Yes, let's go to the MySpace: "Corruption breeds corruption, as this world gets further away from God. People will do worse things, because evil loves evil doers."
Interesting.
We gave you some information throughout the day that we were going to be joined by Carlos Mencia today and he was going to be doing his usual political satire for us. But then Carlos sent us a note saying he's not feeling so well. So, as a result, he canceled his invitation today.
But we've been getting a lot of e-mails from you guys saying where's Carlos Mencia?
We expected his usual political satire and we weren't able to get it. So, obviously, we're going to be able to get a -- take a listen to that.
All right. Now, we see some movement. It looks like Robert Gibbs, President Obama's press secretary, is about to be walking into the room. He's going to be taking on, probably, several issues -- A, the stimulus package; and, B, some issues of foreign policy.
Let's listen.
ROBERT GIBBS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: How is everyone today?
(CROSSTALK)
GIBBS: Good.
Let me just get somewhat organized here.
All right. Just a couple of quick things before we get started. The president will make a couple of calls to foreign leaders later this afternoon, to Prime Minister Rudd in Australia and to President Uribe in Columbia.
The president is also pleased that the House has passed the Lily Ledbetter Pay Equity Bill. And we'll have some more information.
I'm finally prepared to do the week ahead schedule.
Better late than never, right?
(LAUGHTER)
GIBBS: I can tell you, the inaugural is the 20th.
Yes, we'll go back and do some of that toward the end of it.
(CROSSTALK)
GIBBS: You're getting a little ahead of me, but...
(CROSSTALK)
GIBBS: (INAUDIBLE) thank you yet.
So I don't have any more announcements. So I'm happy to dive in and take some of your questions.
Yes?
QUESTION: A couple of different ways to get at these meetings today.
Did the president come away with any specific reason to think that Republicans can support the stimulus package?
And the flip side of that, was there anything specific that he agreed to put in the bill to help bring along more support or at the request of Republicans?
GIBBS: Well, let me take the second part first. I know throughout both meetings, first on the House and then the Senate -- the Senate side -- the president listened to a number of proposals members of Congress had envelopes with ideas in them and that they talked about and gave to both the president and to Larry Summers, who was with us at the meetings.
I do think there is a genuine sense of cooperation that was involved in the meeting. I think -- I think we will have Republican support for this bill. I think you'll some when the House passes this bill, hopefully on Wednesday.
But, again, I think this is a process that -- that will wind its way through. I don't think today was the beginning or the end, but just part of that process.
The message that the president brought today and the same message, I think, the Republicans have when they met, we all see the statistics that come out once a month about where the employment numbers are or consumer confidence, which is low, or housing numbers that, while slightly better, are still far different than they were just a year ago. And we -- we can get caught up in acronyms and all that kind of stuff.
But, you know, I think yesterday was a day that crystallized how important this crisis is. Just yesterday, 20,000 people -- they announced 20,000 lay offs at Caterpillar; 8,000 at Sprint Nextel; 8,000 at Microsoft; 8,000 as a result of the merger between Pfizer and Wyeth; 7,000 at Home Depot; 3,400 from Texas Instruments; and 2,000 from General Motors. Just yesterday.
The president's message, both yesterday and today, is that we cannot sit idly by. We have to act. And that that action should not become part of what Washington always does best, which is play politics.
And the president asked each member of the House and the Senate caucus to simply evaluate his plan and his proposal, not through a political lens, but simply through a what works economic lens.
And I think as members look through that economic what works lens, they'll understand that this plan is unique among legislation that Congress considers, in terms of openness and transparency.
Spending projects will be on the Web -- on a Web site, so people can evaluate what's happening. There is a mix -- an appropriate mix of tax cuts that will put money back into people's pockets and the pockets of small business owners, as well as direct federal spending that creates jobs.
That all of those together, that the economic team and Congress has put together a balanced package that will put people back to work.
QUESTION: Let me just follow-up, then.
Based on the description you just gave of the discussion, it doesn't sound like a brass tacks discussion. It sounds like what the president was doing was making an argument for the existing bill, not making an argument for how can we change this bill.
GIBBS: Well, the president started -- well, let me -- let me describe what actually happened. The president started each of the meetings by letting folks know the decisions that he had gone through -- the process that he had gone through in talking to economists and economic thinkers, both left and right, both Democrat and Republican, both people that had supported him in the campaign and people who had supported his opponent, in putting together what he believed was not an ideologically driven package, but a package that he and the economic team felt was best needed at this moment in time to put people back to work. He wanted to start by that. And each one had a healthy Q&A back and forth about ideas that people had or criticisms that people had. And he still seeks their input.
And, you know, this may be somewhat unique in this town, to watch the president of the United States go up to Capitol Hill. But I don't -- and it may be the first in our seven day old presidency. But I can assure you, it won't be the last time the president goes up to talk to members of Congress and seek their input on something as important as getting our economy going.
QUESTION: But what you're talking about and what you say the president talked about seems more aspirational, as it's judged by the public...
GIBBS: We do aspire to pass a strong bill.
(LAUGHTER)
QUESTION: ...in the manner which you've just discussed. But the public comments we hear are quite predictable. Democrats are accused by Republicans of larding it up and ramming it down the throats of the Republicans. Republicans are concerned that there's far too much stimulus and not enough tax cut. And I don't hear -- I don't...
GIBBS: Let me tell you, I hope the problem we have is there's too much stimulus.
QUESTION: I don't...
GIBBS: I think there's a lot of people yesterday that got pink slips at companies that hope there's too much stimulus.
QUESTION: I don't hear anything from either side that suggests that there is compromise in the works.
GIBBS: Well, I think the president listened to ideas. And he's asked the economic team to evaluate them. I know in the Senate, they talked about infrastructure spending. They talked about different things that the president wants to evaluate.
Again, you know, this is -- you know, the clock is not at zero, guys. This is the process that continues. You know, I think the president went up there in a true spirit of bipartisanship to seek input.
