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Blagojevich's Last Stand?
Aired January 29, 2009 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ROBERT GIBBS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The point of an economic stimulus plan is to get money into people's hands and into people's pockets so that they use their hand to reach in their pocket and spend that money.
That's what a payment like the one we have structured will do, because, again, it provides that money out over a period of time where they get used to spending that money every two weeks.
So I'm not discouraging savings. I don't -- I'm pretty sure that my answer was quite clear on the fact that that was -- was not the case.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) consumer behavior. And with the rebate, it was hoped that people would spend it, when, in fact, many of them ended up using it to pay off credit card debt, paying for, you know, a higher price of gas. And I guess, if you're just giving out small portions per pay period, are people just as likely to use that in paying off their credit cards than to spend money that they don't have?
GIBBS: Let me try this. Let me -- I'm going to swing a third time and see if I can hit this baseball. I will try to do it -- I know. I had -- I had to get to it.
Again, I think economic studies show -- and I will endeavor to get you one of these economic studies -- is that, if you want to get people through a tax cut, money that they're more likely to save -- or, I'm sorry -- more likely to spend faster, it's to do so by spreading it out so that their consumer behavior is augmented by the fact that they understand that that money is coming every pay period, versus giving it to them in one lump sum, where attitudinally, they understand that it's not likely to change.
So I think that's the reason why the structure of our tax cut in terms of make-work-pay is done that way. It's tilted toward lower- and middle-income individuals and families who are likely to take that money, and spend it, and get this economy moving again.
QUESTION: The president seems to have deferred a little bit to the House Democrats during this process, and now presumably he'll let the Senate process run its course.
When you get to negotiations between the two houses -- I realize I'm getting a little ahead of the game, but we're kind of curious -- will the president get involved personally at that level or will he leave it to his economic team? Does he intend to sit down with the leaders of the two parties (OFF-MIKE)
GIBBS: I wouldn't -- I don't know the exact answer. I wouldn't -- I think that's a strong possibility. I mean, I think he's largely, in some ways, out of the legislative process by dint of trading one job for the next.
But I don't think I would close the door in any way on the notion that -- that he'll get involved.
QUESTION: Quick question.
(CROSSTALK)
QUESTION: A corollary to that, Robert. When the president went to the Hill on Tuesday, Republicans told him they had been shut out of the negotiations. Might he have leaned on Speaker Pelosi a little more to facilitate negotiations?
GIBBS: Again, you know, when the -- I guess I don't altogether agree with that -- that notion, largely because you can see provisions in this bill that are directly reflective of the input that they have given.
Net operating loss is a provision in there that I think some wanted to take out, but then the president and his team asked that it be kept in. The -- there's certainly energy provisions in there that are reflective of work that Democrats and Republicans have done together on important issues that will increase the number of clean energy jobs in this country.
And I think I used this example yesterday with my -- of my friend who apparently is e-mailing around, that, you know, the whip said to the president of the United -- to the president-elect then, you know, it would give the American people great confidence if we put these projects up on the Internet and for everyone to see how the money was spent and how the jobs would be created. And that's exactly the intention that the president and his team have.
So I -- I think the input of -- the input has been there. I think the legislation is reflective of that. And I think the president will continue, again, to listen to those ideas so that anybody that has a good idea will be heard.
T.J. HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: Listening to the president's press secretary there, Robert Gibbs, as we have been doing, listening in, these early days of the Obama presidency, to the White House briefings.
Covered a number of topics. Been at it coming up on about 15 minutes, we have been listening to that there, but certainly talking about the stimulus package that was just passed, that $800 billion package that didn't get Republican support at all really from the president, also talked about, among other things, the Super Bowl party that the president is going to have.
So, we will be talking more about the president and his agenda coming up in this hour.
But hello to you all. I'm T.J. Holmes, sitting in for Rick Sanchez today in this hour in the NEWSROOM.
And breaking news -- it has been a busy day in the NEWSROOM, has a busy day in Illinois, Springfield in particular. Any moment now, we waiting for the state senators of that state to come out and vote on whether or not to remove Rod Blagojevich from office.
We could be in the final hours of the Blagojevich governorship there in Illinois. You're looking at a live picture of the chamber there, which has been a busy place. Actually, Blagojevich came out a little earlier today and actually decided to participate for the first time today in his impeachment trial.
He gave a 47-minute speech, defending himself and trying to lay out why he should not be kicked out of office. If he happens to be kicked out of office, his lieutenant governor, Patrick Quinn, will drop the lieutenant from his title and become the new governor. He is prepared right now to be sworn in, and sworn in immediately, this hour shaping up to be a dramatic one, a news-making one -- a news-making one.
And we will not let you miss a bit of it.
But, as all eyes and ears on Illinois, let's do what this program always does every day. That is cut to the change right now, Washington, President Obama meeting with his new treasury secretary, Timothy Geithner. We will bring you the pictures of that significant meeting as soon as those come along to us.
Cut to the change number two, later this hour, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton visits the Oval Office to meet with the president and vice president. More on that when it does happen.
We will also talk with Patricia Murphy about a significant change the president signed as his first piece of legislation. We saw that today.
But, first, want to get you right to the trial of Governor Rod Blagojevich and what's going on there in Illinois, again, a live look at the chamber there, at the Senate chamber, where the senators have been in there busy today. And that is the very room where a little while ago we did see Governor Blagojevich make his defense in his impeachment trial.
We have several people who are going to be joining us, talking about what's happening there.
First up here, our Susan Roesgen, who has certainly been all over this story for this. She's live at the Illinois capitol. Also, Bruce Dold, the editorial writer at "The Chicago Tribune," he's one of those writers Blagojevich allegedly tried to get fired.
Also, from "In Session," anchor Ashleigh Banfield with us as well, and from Miami, former U.S. attorney Kendall Coffey. Always good to have him with us.
First, I want to play some of the sound we played from the governor, in case our audience missed some of it. This is the beginning of his 47-minute defense.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. ROD BLAGOJEVICH (D), ILLINOIS: Thank you very much. I'm grateful for the opportunity to be here today and present my closing argument, my chance to be able to talk to you, talk to the people of Illinois, and talk to anybody else who is listening.
I had the last couple of days -- I have had a chance to be able to go out and talk to as many people as I possibly could about my desire to be able to appear here before the Senate, the Senate trial, and have a chance to be able to tell the whole story, have every single witness I could possibly bring be able to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, present as much evidence that's available to be able to have the whole story told, and have a chance to be able to show you, here in the Senate, show the people of Illinois, and show anybody else who's listening that I have done absolutely nothing wrong, that I followed every law, that I never, ever intended to violate any law, and that when the whole truth is heard, and the whole story is told, that's ultimately is what will be shown.
I was hopeful that I would have a chance to be able to do that in a Senate hearing in this trial, a chance to be able to bring witnesses in, a whole list of witnesses., every single witness in the criminal complaint. It would have been nice to have them here so they could tell the truth and tell you, under oath, what they know.
I wanted to be able to bring in witnesses from Rahm Emanuel, the president's chief of staff, to Senator Dick Durbin, to Senator Harry Reid and Bob Menendez, to every single person connected with any conversation I may have had in relation to picking the United States senator. Unfortunately, these rules have prevented me from being able to do that.
And in spite of efforts to try to get you to give me that chance to do it, it didn't work.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HOLMES: All right, first to our Susan Roesgen, who is at the state capitol.
Susan, tell us, what's next? When do we expect to see these senators come back out and actually vote on whether or not to kick him out of office?
SUSAN ROESGEN, GENERAL ASSIGNMENT CORRESPONDENT: Probably in the next 20 minutes or so. They will have that vote. They make little speeches. Each of the 59 senators may make a few comments for the historical record, T.J., since this is unprecedented in the state of Illinois.
And, then, when they vote, I do expect that they will have the majority they need, the two-thirds majority, 40 out of 59 state senators. I do believe they will have enough to get the yes vote. And then the governor will be immediately removed from office.
And then Lieutenant Governor Patrick Quinn, as you mentioned, would be here to be sworn in, and he will become then the new governor of Illinois.
HOLMES: Bruce, I will turn to you, Bruce Dold, again, editorial page editor for "The Chicago Tribune."
Sir, did you hear anything today -- did he gain any sympathy from anybody, and was his audience maybe more so the people of the state of Illinois? Maybe they heard him today, and they didn't really realize he's not under oath. But, of course, the senators there knew that.
BRUCE DOLD, "THE CHICAGO TRIBUNE": Well, and they have heard it before.
I think you saw why he was elected in 2002 and 2006. He comes -- he can come across as earnest and self-effacing and as a man of the people. He certainly didn't answer any of the direct charges. He glossed right over the criminal complaint. And he tried to make this once again about that he's pro-health care, that he's anti-tax, that he's -- again, that he's a man of the people.
But he didn't get to any of the specifics of the charges. And I would be shocked if he swayed any minds in the Senate by his performance today.
HOLMES: All right. Ashleigh Banfield, Kendall Coffey, you all stand by.
We're going to take a quick commercial break here. But I will give you all chomp on this, give you a little homework here in this commercial break. I'm going to come back and ask you all about something we didn't hear today that we heard so much about leading up to it was him possibly trying to sell the Senate seat vacated by President Obama.
He didn't mention that at all today. Why? I will ask you guys about that right after the break.
Stay with us here in the NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: And, as always, here on this show, Rick's show, you can participate and get involved on MySpace, Facebook and his Twitter page.
One response we got in already, somebody saying: "Blagojevich just keeps milking this thing for all it's worth. He is the Joe the plumber of January 2009" -- I guess meaning maybe he's just getting his 15 minutes of fame. But Blagojevich seems to be getting more than that.
We are going to take another live picture. I have got my guests standing by here. We're going to take this live picture back again. Again, we're waiting for the vote from the senators there, seem to be coming back into the room now. We will certainly continue to monitor this and the activity that is happening in there.
But we do expect maybe in just a matter of minutes the vote to start to see if they actually are going to kick Blagojevich out of office. And he would have to find his own ride back home.
Ashleigh Banfield, let me bring you back in here, also Kendall Coffey. I told you I was going to ask you all this question.
So, everything -- so much of what we were talking about leading up to his -- after he was charged and going through this impeachment was selling the Senate seat of Barack Obama, the one that he left. So, why did we not hear about that today, Ashleigh?
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, TRUTV ANCHOR: Well, I'm actually surprised that we didn't hear about it today, because, as you mentioned, he was not under oath. So, even if he were to lie, it couldn't really be used against him in a pejorative way, anyway, in a criminal court down the road.
But everything, T.J., he says can and likely will be used against him when the criminal proceedings are scheduled to begin. So, I think that the modus operandi of this government -- of this governor today was to reach out to either a potential jury pool or just to stroke his own ego, because I get the impression that a lot of what he was doing in New York, with that big national press tour, had nothing to do with the good citizens of Illinois. It had everything to do with his personality and his ego.
(CROSSTALK)
HOLMES: Kendall, do you agree with that, that this wasn't necessarily him trying to defend himself and trying to keep his job, but he was being a little egomaniacal there, as she is kind of mentioning, but also playing to a different pool of people, not those 59 senators sitting in front of him?
COFFEY: Well, he's clearly not -- he's given up on the senators. I'm sure he's already ordered the movers to start coming in and taking his stuff out there.
And I agree there's plenty of ego here and I agree he's also playing to future jurors with his extraordinary round-robin of television interviews. But I think one of the reasons he didn't focus on the sale of the Senate seat is he hopes at least to some extent he's already kind of refuted that by the selection of Roland Burris, because, at the end of the day, he didn't sell the seat.
He made what appears to be an eminently respectable selection that will probably play well with jurors down the road. And, by the way, he mentioned along the way that he was thinking about Oprah Winfrey, another kind of thing he keeps dropping to get out there in the press to suggest, hey, his process, bottom line, had nothing to do with really making something as corrupt as the sale of the Senate seat.
HOLMES: All right, and letting our viewers know what you're seeing at the bottom portion of the screen, the box, we can take that full for you now and show you what's happening, but this is the Illinois State Senate, a live picture we're keeping an eye on here, because the senators have started to trickle back into the room.
We're expecting a vote. This could come in a matter of minutes. Our Susan Roesgen is outside there telling us it could matter -- come in the next 15 or so minutes. We are monitoring that.
But for those of you who did not catch the 47-minute speech by Governor Blagojevich a little earlier, let's play now another portion of it, a portion of it in which he was really challenging the system set up in the first place, how they were going about, as he said, essentially hanging him and called this whole thing a sham. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLAGOJEVICH: Now, I understand that the federal prosecutor and the U.S. attorney has made it clear, and I respect and understand his position, that he doesn't want witnesses called and that he doesn't want evidence called, and that's why on all the other seven articles, with the exception of those four tapes that you heard, there hasn't been any evidence to show or prove any criminal conduct.
I understand that. That's why I am appealing to you that unless they allow us to bring that evidence in, then that case ought to be heard in the appropriate place, in a court of law, and respect the U.S. attorney and his needs to be able to bring those witnesses.
But how can you throw a governor out of office on a criminal complaint, and you haven't been able to show or prove any criminal activity? How can you throw a governor, elected twice by the people, out of office when the rules don't even require that you prove up elements of criminal allegations?
And more than that, how can you throw a governor out of office who is clamoring and begging and pleading with you to give him a chance to bring witnesses in to prove his innocence, to do more than just ask for a presumption of innocence? Don't even give me that. Let me make my case, let me bring my witnesses in, let me show you that I'm innocent and I didn't do anything wrong.
So Articles 1 to 8 do not show or prove any criminal case. And if that's the case, how can you throw me out of office without proving something like that and set a dangerous precedent that could have an impact on people and governors in Illinois and governors in other states?
Now, the four tapes that you heard speak for themselves. You also had a chance to listen to the FBI agent who was here. But what did he do? He just read allegations.
He didn't allow you to challenge the allegations. He didn't allow you to cross-examine any of the people involved in those allegations. He simply read a criminal complaint.
That's not proving criminal allegations. And again, I would respectfully suggest to you, how can you throw somebody out of office, whether it's me, or maybe one day it happens to you, without even expecting someone to try to prove something that they're saying that you did?
So I'm appealing to you and your sense of fairness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: Well, we will see if that appeal to their sense of fairness works. We should know shortly. We are watching that live picture there at the bottom of your screen. We can take that picture for you again.
And I will bring in our Susan Roesgen, who is outside the Illinois State Senate there.
What are we seeing here, Susan? We see a little activity. So, could this be it? Is there any more deliberating to be done?
ROESGEN: I don't think so, T.J.
I think they are going to go some sort of parliamentary, procedural type things. You see the state Supreme Court chief justice at the very head of the room in the black robe. And then in the front is David Ellis, the impeachment prosecutor. He has made his rebuttal, a very powerful rebuttal, I have to say, T.J.
And so I think they're going to proceed onto whatever procedural things they have to do to have the actual vote.
We should remember, T.J., that the governor has often expressed a desire before this to be president of the United States. This is a guy who had grand aspirations. And he had to give the greatest speech of his life today to keep his political career alive. And I don't think he did it.
Not only can the state Senate decide to kick him out of office. They can also give him what is called the political death penalty. They can ensure that he can never run for public office in this state again. And they could very well do that.
HOLMES: Yes, that was part of it as well. And some speculation was fueled by that, that he possibly could resign, so at least maybe he could salvage something on down the road.
Susan Roesgen, thank you for keeping an eye on things.
Want to let our guests know what we are watching and what you are watching, live inside the Senate chamber in the state of Illinois, in Springfield, where the senators could be voting at any minute on possibly kicking Rod Blagojevich out of office.
Our guests are with us, Bruce Dold from "The Chicago Tribune," Ashleigh Banfield with us as well, Kendall Coffey. They are standing by. They will continue to talk to us about what's happening there. We will monitor it, monitor this.
Quick break now. We will be right back in the NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: All right, welcome back to the CNN NEWSROOM, T.J. Holmes here sitting in for Rick Sanchez.
And what we're watching live right there, that is the Senate chamber in Illinois, in Springfield right now, where they're going to deliberate and debate, and possibly Blagojevich is going to have to vacate the premises.
This is happening because of the impeachment trial. We have gotten to the point now where all that's left right now -- the cases have been made by both sides, including Blagojevich earlier today, who decided today to end the boycott of his own impeachment trial and go down there. He made a 47-minute plea, a closing argument, as it was called, still trying to win over some people, win over some votes, and possibly keep his job.
The debate is going on right now. The Senate has come back. Democrats and Republicans are there, after having their separate caucuses. They will continue now to debate, a little deliberation in there, and then possibly the vote -- 59 senators, 40 vote for impeachment, then Blagojevich is out of there.
Let's bring in back some of our guests here.
I have got Bruce Dold with me, Ashleigh Banfield, Kendall Coffey as well.
Bruce, again, with the editorial page from "The Chicago Tribune," sir, we understood that it sounds like this is almost a done deal. Quite frankly, a lot of U-Hauls have been ordered, if you will. Boxes have been packed. They have the oath ready. So, tell us. It sounds like they're ready. And tell us about Lieutenant Governor Patrick Quinn. Who is he? What's he about and is he ready to go?
DOLD: Pat Quinn is a very interesting guy. He has been an outsider in Chicago politics all of his career, which goes back about 30 years. He is not a Democratic regular. He has a reputation of something of a gadfly.
When I was a reporter, I spent a lot of Sunday mornings at Pat Quinn press conferences, more time at the Bismarck Hotel than in church, because Pat Quinn knew that Sunday morning was the time when he had all to himself. And whatever was his latest issue, he would throw out there.
So, he's been a thorn to a lot of Democrats. Many years ago, he led an effort that was successful to reduce the size of the Illinois legislature. He put a lot of people out of work by that. So, he's going to come in now. And the question is whether the other Democrats are going to want to play along with him or will they try and obstruct him, because he is a leader who wants a transparent, open government.
HOLMES: And, Ashleigh, let me bring you back in on this question.
I know it's a different standard, really, in a court of law. It's a -- you're innocent until proven guilty. Has anything -- he hasn't been convicted in a criminal case, so I guess in a lot of ways, how can you convict him of doing the things that he hasn't been convicted in a criminal court of doing?
He was trying to make this point today really, saying, and, also, some of this stuff you're accusing I did, I did it before my second term. I did it then. You didn't impeach me then. I was reelected then.
Does he have a case?
BANFIELD: You can add to that, and why don't you call Senators Kennedy and McCain as my co-conspirators?
(LAUGHTER)
HOLMES: Yes. Yes. That was a hell of a line, wasn't it?
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: There was a lot of bloviating going on in the Windy City, I think we can agree, T.J.
Well, can I liken it this way? The process in the Senate chambers in Illinois is a little bit like us joining a private club. If you and I want to join a private club, that's our choice. And we decide to ally with that membership and the rules that that membership has put forth.
The rules of this Senate proceeding were written well before Rod Blagojevich took office. So, he made his bed when he put himself up for public office, and knowing full well that, if anything were to go awry, this is the process that follows.
And the private club, if they don't like you, can vote you out. It doesn't matter if they even listen to the evidence. That's what's different about this process. The rules of evidence really don't matter in a very strange way.
Not only that, this body can actually overturn rulings by the Supreme Court justice, the state Supreme Court justice. So, it's all about each individual senator's decision. They have the actual standard left to each -- each unto their own. It's really easy to decide to kick him out.
HOLMES: And, yes, this is the first time for the state of Illinois having to go through this, first time they're impeaching a governor. So, really, they're creating this own standard as they go along.
We will continue with our Blagojevich coverage. Again, at the bottom of your screen, you are keeping an eye on, just like we're keeping an eye on, what's happening there in the state Senate in Illinois right now, the senators getting together to deliberate and then vote on possibly kicking out Blagojevich.
Something else we have been keeping an eye on here outside of really -- or still related to, but a little outside of what's been happening there in the state Senate, is whether or not the governor tried to cut a deal with a powerful labor union for the Illinois Senate seat -- well, the U.S. attorney looking into that allegation as well.
Who else is looking into it? Our Drew Griffin. He is back from Chicago with an investigation, a Special Investigations Unit report.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: All right. Welcome back here, everybody, to the CNN NEWSROOM.
T.J. Holmes here sitting in for Rick Sanchez.
A couple of comments we're getting -- we're getting from our viewers -- from you out there about this Blagojevich story we're following: "One thing is that the governor needs to be given the benefit of the doubt and this proceeding should wait until criminal charges are settled."
There's a few of those, but not very many. Another one on Rick's MySpace page From Sharon saying: "I sure hope -- " Facebook, excuse me. My apologies. I just had five people yell at me.
She says: "I sure hope this is the start of a long list of people in power that will be investigated and thrown out. We need a clean, honest and new start."
So thank you. Keep those coming in.
Right now, we will continue. Again, on the bottom of your screen, we are watching what's happening in the Illinois state senate right now, where they are starting live now, you're watching, to deliberate. And they're going to vote on whether to kick Blagojevich out of office -- the governor there.
We'll turn now to something else -- another part of the investigation going on into Blagojevich, whether or not he tried -- something else connected to the Senate seat. And this has to do -- Drew Griffin, I'll bring you in here. This is your story -- your investigation you've been doing -- whether or not now some dirty dealings with a big labor union. DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SPECIAL INVESTIGATIONS UNIT CORRESPONDENT: That's right. It all involves that Senate seat which caught our attention when Fitzgerald outlined that Governor Blagojevich was at least trying to allegedly sell the Senate seat.
The question was, who was he selling the Senate seat to?
Now, everybody that's been come, up from Jesse Jackson to all the other Congresspeople who were involved, say, hey, he wasn't selling it to me.
Well, now we have that same thing from the SEIU. This is the Service Employees International Union. But at least in Blagojevich's head, there was a deal being cooked up. It was a three-way deal that he thought, at least, would lead him to a high paying job.
The deal that Governor Blagojevich would appoint the president's choice for the Senate. The union would give Blagojevich a cushy job heading its Change To Win political action committee -- upwards of $500,000. And down the road, the union would give President Obama support in pushing its own pro-union agenda.
This all comes out of the papers that we got from Fitzgerald and the conversations.
The question was, is the Service Employees International Union and its chief, Andy Stern, really making a deal?
We asked him.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GRIFFIN (voice-over): This week, Andy Stern, the head of the Service Employees International Union and, arguably, the most powerful labor boss in America, sat down to answer questions on why Blagojevich thought he could cut a deal with his union and why Stern was meeting with Blagojevich on November 3rd -- one day before the president was elected.
(on camera): November 3rd, you met with him.
ANDY STERN, PRESIDENT, SERVICE EMPLOYEES INTERNATIONAL UNION: Um- hmm.
GRIFFIN: About what?
STERN: I met with Blagojevich just about a whole range of issues.
GRIFFIN: Was the SEIU involved in any dealings with Blagojevich over who would be the senator from Illinois?
STERN: As we've said from the very beginning, you know, we are cooperating with Patrick Fitzgerald. You know, we have given him every information he wants. You know, we have been mentioned, like many other people, you know, in this investigation. And we are absolutely convinced that there is no wrongdoing on the part of anyone in the SEIU.
GRIFFIN: At one time very recently he was an ally of this union and you -- this union has certainly donated almost $2 million to his campaign.
What's -- what's happened to him?
STERN: I think it's sad anytime you see someone who came into public office with a real desire to take care of, you know, people at work and make change. And obviously, you know, something has gone awry here.
And so, you know, it's just bad for our members in Illinois, it's bad for the citizens of Illinois. It's not good for our country. And I -- I feel sorry and I hope that this situation comes to an end quickly.
GRIFFIN: And, definitively, there was no deal -- no cooked up three-way deal?
STERN: No. None of those deals, you know, existed at all. And, you know, I will leave Patrick Fitzgerald to sort the rest of it out.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GRIFFIN: At the very least, T.J. , this is embarrassing for this very powerful man and very powerful union. They were strong allies of Blagojevich through both of his elections. They have been incredibly strong allies of Barack Obama all the way through this campaign. The SEIU has one of their own in the White House. So it creates this atmosphere of uncomfortability that there was even discussions about this.
As we see Blagojevich's testimony coming out, there's going to be a lot more people put in this position.
HOLMES: Yes. And a lot more will continue to distance themselves from the governor.
GRIFFIN: Right.
HOLMES: Drew, we appreciate you.
Thank you very much, buddy.
And stay here with us. We will continue, of course, to follow what's happening in Illinois right now. The state senate there -- senators deliberating about the future of Rod Blagojevich. Maybe -- just maybe his last hours as governor of the state of Illinois.
Meantime, when we come back, we're going to bring in our Patricia Murphy to talk about what Obama was up to today. We also are awaiting -- there she is. She's waiting and we'll see you here in just a second.
Also, we're waiting -- the president right now meeting with Tim think Geithner, his new Treasury secretary. When we get more out of that meeting, we'll bring that to you, as well. But we'll be talking about stimulus and Obama's day with Patricia Murphy.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: All right. Welcome back, everybody.
T.J. Holmes sitting in for Rick Sanchez here in the NEWSROOM.
A lot going on today. A lot of actives (ph) happening in, as you see on the bottom of your screen there, in Illinois. We are keeping an eye on the impeachment trial of Rod Blagojevich, the governor there, who may be governor for the next several hours or even minutes. A vote expected some time soon. When that happens, we'll bring it to you.
Meantime, the president -- President Obama had a kind of a busy day today. And he is continuing with that day. He is meeting with his Treasury secretary, Timothy Geithner, right now. We're expected to hear from the two -- or at least from the president here anytime. We're expecting some tape to come in, really, in a matter of seconds. When it does, we'll get that to you.
So I will bring in now Patricia Murphy, who is a friend of this show.
Hello, to you, ma'am.
PATRICIA MURPHY, EDITOR, CITIZENJANEPOLITICS.COM: Hello.
HOLMES: Thanks for being here with us.
We can only imagine what these two are -- are talking about. Well, I could give somebody two guesses, but you only need one.
What -- I guess what's the strategy moving forward with this stimulus package?
Is it really a matter of politics anymore?
He would have liked to have gotten more -- actually, I'm told -- I'm told I've got it right now. We'll talk about it afterwards.
Let's take a listen.
(LIVE FEED, JOINED IN PROGRESS)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, it's good to see you guys.
I just had a terrific conversation with my secretary of the Treasury, the vice president, as well as the rest of our economic team, about the steps that we need to move forward on -- not only on the Economic Recovery and Reinvestment Package, but also on making sure that we begin the process of regulating Wall Street so that we can improve the flow of credit, banks start lending again, so that businesses can reopen and that we can create more jobs, but, also, to make sure that we never find ourselves in the kind of crisis that we're in again -- that we've seen over the last several months.
And Secretary Geithner is hard at work on this process. We expect that even as the Reinvestment and Recovery package moves forward, as I said, that's only one leg of the stool. And that these other legs of the stool will be rolled out systematically in the coming weeks, so that the American people will have a clear sense of a comprehensive strategy designed to put people back to work, reopen businesses, get credit flowing again.
One point I want to make is that all of us are going to have responsibilities to get this economy moving again. And when I saw an article today indicating that Wall Street bankers had given themselves $20 billion worth of bonuses -- the same amount of bonuses as they gave themselves in 2004 -- at a time when most of these institutions were teetering on collapse and they are asking for taxpayers to help sustain them and when taxpayers find themselves in the difficult position that if they don't provide help, that the entire system could come down on top of our heads -- that is the height of irresponsibility.
It is shameful. And part of what we're going to need is for the folks on Wall Street who are asking for help to show some restraint and show some discipline and show some sense of responsibility.
You know, the American people understand that, you know, we've got a big hole that we've got to dig ourselves out of. But they don't like the idea that people are digging a bigger hole, even as they're being asked to fill it up.
And so, you know, we're going to be having conversations, as this process moves forward, directly with these folks on Wall Street, to underscore that they have to start acting in a more responsible fashion if we are to, together, get this economy rolling again.
There will be time for them to make profits. And there will be time for them to get bonuses. Now is not that time. And that's a message that I intend to send directly to them, I expect Secretary Geithner to send to them.
And, you know, Secretary Geithner already had to pull back one institution that had gone forward with a multimillion dollar jet plane purchase at the same time as they're receiving TARP money. We shouldn't have to do that, because they should know better. And we will continue to send that message loud and clear.
Having said that, I am confident that with the recovery package moving through the House and through the Senate, with the excellent work that's already been done by Secretary Geithner, in consultation with Larry Summers and Paul Volcker and other individuals, that we are going to be able to set up a regulatory framework that rights the ship and that gets us moving again. And I know the American people are eager to get moving again. They want to work. They are serious about their responsibilities. I am, too, in this White House. And I hope that the folks on Wall Street are going to be thinking in the same way.
All right?
Thank you, guys.
(CROSSTALK)
OBAMA: I have to say, you know, I wish the Cardinals the best. You know, Kurt Warner is a great story and he's closer to my age than anybody else on the field. But I am a longtime Steelers fan. Mr. Rooney, the owner, was just an extraordinary supporter during the course of the campaign. You know, Frank O. Harris was campaigning for me in Pittsburgh. So...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The coach signed up with you, too. He's (INAUDIBLE).
OBAMA: Right. Coach Tomlin was a supporter. So I -- you know, I wish the best to the Cardinals. They've been long-suffering. It's a great Cinderella story. But other than the Bears, the Steelers are probably the team that's closest to my heart.
All right?
(END LIVE FEED)
HOLMES: Well, there you have it.
Plus, there are more electoral votes in Pennsylvania than there are in Arizona anyway, so what do you do?
Patricia Murphy here with us again.
We're going to get a quick question in to you before we take a quick break.
And what you're hearing there, what is going to be the focus now for the president and moving forward?
Is it going to be helping these banks get stable?
Is it going to be the tax cuts?
It is going to be infrastructure?
What does he need to emphasize and really zone in on at this point?
MURPHY: Well, what he said just there is that they are not -- they don't have the luxury of zoning in on one area of the economy. He said there's going to be a comprehensive strategy, there's going to have to be another bailout or fix for the banks. There are going to have to be tax cuts. There will have to be stimulus spending. But overall, the theme we hear is responsibility and accountability. I've never heard a president say this. He said it is shameful that Wall Street banks are still giving bonuses when they are taking taxpayer dollars. He's using the bully pulpit to its maximum effect there.
HOLMES: To its maximum effect. He does know how to use it.
Patricia, we're going to come back to you. I'm going to ask you about something else that's kind of light there at the end, talking about the Super Bowl. But the man is actually having a Super Bowl party -- that's a heck of a party, I'm sure -- at the White House, a Super Bowl party. But he is -- he had a cocktail party the other night, as well. You know, he's bringing in some of these Republicans and Democrats. They're just hanging out with him. We'll talk to you about that strategy here in just a second.
And, again, as always, the viewers are participating in this newscast here where Rick Sanchez is usually sitting.
But here is one on MySpace this time. He says: "I hear what Obama is saying. That's how we feel. But what does he plan to do to prevent it? How about they just give their own banks -- just have their own banks where people can borrow from to pay their bills, instead of giving it to these thieves to misuse?"
We appreciate your comments, as always.
And we are never too far away from Rod Blagojevich, the governor of Illinois. He may not be the governor there very much longer. Right now, the senators, they are deliberating about his fate. His impeachment trial could be wrapping up today with a vote.
We're keeping an eye on all things.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: All right. Welcome back to CNN NEWSROOM.
Again, we're keeping a live -- that live picture up on the bottom of your screen there. What you are seeing is the Illinois state senate, where the senators are now deliberating the fate of Governor Rod Blagojevich, who could only be governor for the next few hours, possibly -- and maybe even minutes if they decide to vote. But the expected. Again, he could hold onto his job, but the way things were looking, he wasn't expected to, by many accounts there. Again, 40 of the 59 senators vote for impeachment and he is out of there. We're keeping an eye on that.
We also, just a moment ago, heard from the president after meeting with Timothy Geithner. He's the new Treasury secretary. They were certainly about the economy. But Patricia Murphy, we'll bring you back in here. He was also talking about the Super Bowl there at the end. We also heard that he is going to have a Super Bowl party, a bipartisan Super Bowl party, we understand. He also had a cocktail hour at the White House the other night, bipartisan as well.
Now, he could find a drinking buddy somewhere if he wanted to.
Why is he choosing to -- to break bread -- to have a beer with these particular folks?
MURPHY: Well, it seems -- you know, it seems a little frivolous from a distance. But this is actually a serious effort on his part to really actually change the tone in Washington.
It has gotten to a point where lawmakers come into town, spend all day up on the Hill, leave town. And, really, they have not developed bipartisanship relationships with each other. And it's caused a lot of the friction that we see between Democrats and Republicans and between the White House and Capitol Hill.
So by having lawmakers over for cocktails -- and he actually he did this last night after not one Republican voted for his package, after lots of lobbying, including he had John Boehner, Eric Cantor and several other Republican members for cocktails.
And Politico reported that John Boehner and Nancy Pelosi hugged at the White House.
HOLMES: Really?
MURPHY: So I think that it's having its desired affect -- warming relations on Capitol Hill and the White House.
HOLMES: Well, yes, liquor will usually warm people up a bit.
(LAUGHTER)
HOLMES: I wonder what they were serving. It must have been Cointreau and stuff at the...
MURPHY: I don't know.
HOLMES: ...at the White House, possibly.
All right, Patricia Murphy.
We appreciate you always.
It's fun to have you on.
Good to talk to you.
MURPHY: Thank you.
HOLMES: Thank you so much.
And ladies and gentlemen, again, we are awaiting -- we're only -- we're eight minutes away from wrapping this show up. We'll be handing it over to THE SITUATION ROOM. But still, we will continue to follow, no matter what time it is, what's happening there in Illinois.
The state senators right now deliberating the fate of Rod Blagojevich.
Will he keep his job?
Stay here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HOLMES: All right.
Again, we're keeping an eye on what's happening there in the State of Illinois, the state capital, the Senate chamber. They are deliberating the fate of the governor there, Rod Blagojevich, in his impeachment trial.
Kendall Coffey and Ashleigh Banfield still with me here.
Kendall, you tell me, how badly did he hurt himself talking about this trial, calling it a sham?
Could he have increased his chances of maybe -- maybe keeping his job if he would have gone and participated?
Or do you think there was some truth in that -- his argument that they had already made up their minds, they were going to hang me no matter what?
COFFEY: Well, there was no chance of surviving impeachment and the removal process. What he's really playing to (INAUDIBLE)...
HOLMES: No chance, Kendall?
COFFEY: No chance.
But what he is really playing to are two things. Even ex- dictators -- we remember all their tirades -- they don't really try to defend on the merits, they simply attack the tribunal and the process with political speeches because they think somehow that maybe helps whatever is left of their legacy.
But here there's something else going on. He doesn't have to convince you, me or even a whole lot of people. But if he can create a reasonable doubt with whatever stunts and shenanigans he's got, in the minds of a single holdout juror -- one juror out of 12 -- the government can't convict him and put him in jail.
I think that's got to be at least a major part of the agenda for all this.
HOLMES: Ashleigh, you certainly subscribe to that theory, that this isn't about trying to stay in office, this is about trying to stay out of jail. BANFIELD: Yes. And the key thing here is that the governor has been going all over the media saying a Sixth Amendment right to fair process and to the ability to subpoena witnesses has been violated by this process.
he's absolutely wrong.
The Sixth Amendment pertains to criminal proceedings, not these kinds of proceedings.
So right now, the governor needs to be very, very careful to keep himself out of prison. And that, my friend, is what the Sixth Amendment pertains to. So now he's got all the protections of the Sixth Amendment.
HOLMES: You know -- I mean I guess it's up to the people there to maybe change the law or change the -- change the constitution of the State of Illinois.
But Kendall and Ashleigh, both of you, do you find something maybe a little -- something just not right about him not being able -- for there to be such a low standard, if you will. You really don't have to -- or you really can't defend yourself. It's not about evidence. It's up to these senators, their discretion.
COFFEY: Well, it's up to their discretion, but that is the political process. And there's no ultimate entitlement if, in fact, you completely put public confidence in -- in the (INAUDIBLE).
And, by the way, he was charged -- not yet indicted but charged with a pretty serious crime.
I think what he's trying to do is somehow denounce of this, enough, so that, at the end of the day, people understand this really wasn't a criminal trial and he can create some open minds about whether or not he's going to end up getting convicted in the real show -- in the real criminal trial. Because he was convicted in the court of public opinion at the beginning of this. The question is, has he done anything since then to unconvict him?
HOLMES: All right. I will give a couple of viewer feedbacks -- a little feedback in here and then I'll let you have the last word, Ashleigh.
One from Facebook here saying: "Whether or not Blagojevich is impeached, should not -- or not, he should have his own impeachment trial."
Oh, maybe a few words that maybe shouldn't be in there. We won't hold that grammatical error against you. "It serves him right if he gets impeached. All he has done has turned his own trial into a laughingstock."
Ashleigh, I will wrap up. You can have this one here.
No matter what happens here, does everybody come out looking bad? You know, the Republicans were saying this was moving too fast. It reeked of politics.
So even if he is impeached, will the people of Illinois, will all of the viewers here now, will the country look at this and think that it was done on the -- the up and up?
BANFIELD: Well, I think that the House prosecutor probably nails it at the end of his closing, his rebuttal. He said being governor is not a right, it is a privilege.
And so the speed with which they carried this out might actually work to the advantage of the process. Because I think these legislators are just trying to make sure that things are a little more clean -- at least in the image, anyway.
HOLMES: All right.
BANFIELD: Leaving it to the end of the criminal trial to draw it all out longer.
HOLMES: All right.
Ashleigh Banfield, Kendall Coffey, we appreciate you all chiming in.
Appreciate your expertise.
BANFIELD: Sure.
HOLMES: We will hand it over to Wolf Blitzer and his expertise.
They will continue to follow, certainly, what's happening in Illinois.
Thanks for being here.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: And thank you.
