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Mexico's Drug Wars; Desperately Seeking Asylum; Drug Kingpin on Forbes List

Aired March 14, 2009 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN CENTER: Drug-related violence has killed more than 1,000 people in Mexico this year. More than 7,000 people were killed last year. A U.S. state department warning about travel to Mexico now includes references to violent attacks, U.S. citizens being kidnapped and large fire fights. And there's fear the violence is spilling right into the United States.

Today, a community meeting in El Paso, Texas, taking place just across the border from Juarez, Mexico. And in a few minutes, we'll talk with a woman who actually hosted that meeting, El Paso City Council Member Emma Acosta.

So if you're not alarmed enough, this should do it. Police say they are sleeper cells just waiting for the phone call to strike, not far away land terrorists. American teenagers hired as hit men for the Mexican drug cartels. The targets could be living in your neighborhood. CNN's Ed Lavandera has this remarkable story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Moises Garcia had just finished a family lunch in Loredo, Texas. Garcia helped his pregnant wife and three-year-old boy into their white Lexus.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This guy just came out of the car and just started shooting.

LAVANDERA: Garcia was a wanted man. He had a $10,000 bounty on his head. Garcia's wife was shot in the chest. She and her son survived but Moises was dead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It happened so fast. We didn't have a chance.

LAVANDERA: Garcia's murder at first looked like an isolated gang land-style killing. But there were more. Seven murders in a year- long stretch. There was something more sinister brewing. Then Noel Flordes(ph) was killed, an innocent victim in a case of mistaken identity. Investigators found fingerprints on the cigarette box in the shooter's getaway car. The chilling truth unraveled. The clue led police to Gabriel Cardona and Rosalio Retta(ph), American teenagers working as Mexican drug cartel hit men in the United States.

ROBERT GARCIA,: They are very very good at what they did. They were professional at what they did.

LAVANDERA: Assassins is what they were. How Gabriel Cardona and Rosalio Retta(ph) evolved from average teenagers into hit men is laid out in court records and these police interrogation videos obtained by CNN.

In this tape Retta happily details how he carried out his first cartel assassination at the age of 13.

I loved doing it killing that first person. I loved it. I thought I was superman, said Retta. Detective Robert Garcia is the man sitting across the table from Retta.

GARCIA: That's one thing that you wonder all the time. What made them be this way?

LAVANDERA (on-camera): Like many Americans, these teenagers started hitting the cantinas and bars just across the border in Mexico. And that's where investigators say the cartel was waiting to recruit them.

LAVANDERA (voice-over): These kids were easy targets for the cartel. The two started living the high life. They got tattoos honoring the Santa Morte, the grim reaper-like saint honored by drug traffickers. Cardona had eyeballs tattooed on his eyelids and markings covered Retta's face.

Cardona and Retta should have been in school here. But instead, investigators say they dropped out and joined the cartel's payroll. They drove around town in a $70,000 Mercedes. They were paid $500 a week as a retainer to sit and wait for the call to kill. Then they could make up to $50,000 for a hit.

Prosecutors say Cardona and Retta were hit men for the Zetas, a group of former Mexican special military forces that do the dirty work for the notorious Gulf cartel.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They actually, you know, enjoy it and laugh about it. And compete, discussing their exploits. About conducting these activities.

GARCIA: It's as if they're already here. They're sleeper cells. They're already here in the U.S., not just in Loredo. I mean they're out throughout the U.S.

LAVANDERA: In Cardona's interrogation, he tells detectives the Zetas are moving their operations deeper into the U.S. Cardona says he knows of hits carried out in Houston and Dallas. Cardona and Retta are in prison now serving long terms for murder. But before they were arrested federal authorities recorded a phone call between the two young men.

Cardona brags about killing 14-year-old Inez Villarreal, the innocent cousin of a Cardona enemy, who is also murdered. Cardona laughs about torturing both, making giso or stew out of their bodies in large metal drums. Villarreal and his cousin have never been found. Before the call ends, Cardona says "there are three left to kill, there are three left." It's a reminder the cartel's work never ends as they recruit the next generation of killers. Ed Lavandera, CNN, Loredo.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: All right. Pretty striking stuff. We got a great panel here. CNN's Michael Ware who spent some time in Juarez, Mexico, El Paso city council member Emma Acosta who help commandeer a town hall meeting, a discussion taking place in El Paso today. We'll get her take on how that went as we try and work out the audio. And CNN's Josh Levs who has been fielding a lot of your e-mails, I-reports, your questions and concerns about how it got here.

Now, Emma Acosta, can you hear me?

EMMA ACOSTA, EL PASO CITY COUNCIL MEMBER: Yes, I can.

WHITFIELD: Let me begin with you because you have this town hall meeting today for very good reason. People are afraid. You are right across the border from Juarez, Mexico, which has seen a lot of violence. What do people say today?

ACOSTA: Well, first of all, they were very happy that I actually had this panel of law enforcement experts in our discussion today.

WHITFIELD: And what happened? What do they want to know from law enforcement?

ACOSTA: Well, they were asking, you know, what happens? What happens when an individual is shot at the bridge? And then, you know, he's taken to one of our hospitals. And do they all interact? And I wanted to assure them today that our law enforcement agencies are working with each other to make sure that our community is safe.

WHITFIELD: So when we look at the numbers of nearly 7,000 people who have died in the past year in Mexico as a result of drug cartel violence and it's spilling into the borders, your border town is being hit hard. Have you seen deaths related to the drug cartels, and if so, in a big way?

ACOSTA: Well, what we see is every day when you pick up the newspaper, we'll see murders occurring, you know, 10, seven, five, every single day. Last month in February we had over 200 murders that occurred across the border. We are so, in such close proximity to Juarez that wherever you stand in El Paso, you can probably see our sister city of Juarez, Mexico. It's so close to us that I think it's for me to say no I'm not afraid would be inaccurate.

Because obviously, you know, the violence is there. It's happening within our eyesight. So we need to be concerned. We need to make sure that our law enforcement agencies are actually working together. And they are. You know, we're very confident that they are working together. Along with our local enforcement as well.

WHITFIELD: Yes and I understand you grew up in El Paso. So you really have a reference point of how it has changed over the years. I want to ask you about that throughout this hour. Meantime, Michael Ware joining us now from New York. You spent some time in Juarez. And you were focusing primarily on the trading and the smuggling of U.S. weapons into Juarez, describe how bad you think the situation is.

MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, certainly American authorities say that, you know, over the last several years there's at least 62,000 weapons that have crossed from America into Mexico, into their hands, primarily of the cartels. Now that's just the weapons that the authorities say they're aware of.

Let's look at what these cartels are armed with. And what we're seeing is a fight that's being bitterly fought with American weapons on both sides. The government and the cartels, indeed, particularly some of these special forces military types for the Mexican army who have moved up to form organizations like the Lazetas. These men know what they're doing.

And their armaments include 50-caliber Barrett sniper rifles. Made in the U.S., weapons that are deadly effective over perhaps a mile and which I've only seen in the hands of U.S. marine sniper teams or army sniper teams. These guys also have U.S.-made grenades, American-made ak-47s, you know, IR-15s. America is very much fuelling this fight, not just in its taste for illicit drugs, but in the actual weapons that are being used to kill.

WHITFIELD: Well this is fuelling discussions in households across America. Josh Levs has been receiving a whole lot of e-mails throughout the day. What are people saying? They're worried about a full-out war unfolding right in their backyard.

JOSH LEVS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A lot of passion, Fred. A lot of big concerns and I'll tell everyone who is just joining us, right now. There are two big ways to join us. Let's zoom in on the board. You can tell us whatever you're thinking at my Facebook page right now, joshlevscnn. We're going to monitor it throughout the hour, and also some of the e-mails at weekends@cnn.com. We're going to start off with his from Joanne.

Listen to this. And this is a great question from Michael. "How do I feel about the obvious and ominous threat of Mexican drug cartels setting up both shop and housekeeping in our country? After watching a History Channel special I was scared out of my skin. We absolutely need to make closing our borders and routing out drugs and gang lords the highest priority or we will have our own Afghanistan right here.

WHITFIELD: Michael, do you see that? You spent time in Afghanistan. Do you see any parallels?

WARE: Yes. There's a certain degree to which, you know, the dynamic in Afghanistan in terms of the drug trade is relevant here. And also the dynamic in Iraq where for better or for worse I lived for six years in terms of the fight on the ground, which is an insurgency. I mean, this is the thing. You really do have an insurgency right on the U.S. border.

And despite the efforts of the combined agencies of American authorities operating in Texas and Arizona. The trial fight is on the other side of the border. And there it's not being won. And what I saw on the ground in a week where eight police officers were killed in the city of Juarez are forcing the police chief to step down. There's no future where I can see there's an imminent tactical victory on the ground in site. We really need to approach this with a whole different way of thinking.

WHITFIELD: And we're going to talk about that a bit more, too, the approach the U.S. is thinking about later on in this hour. Josh, we got one more e-mail -

LEVS: I do.

WHITFIELD: - before we need to go to break.

LEVS: Yes, let's take a quick look at this. Because some people are saying it's really the opposite. That this is getting blown out of proportion. Let's zoom in quickly. This is from Antone, "Stop with all this Mexico border bashing. I plan on visiting very soon. I have friends there. They're all just fine. You're more likely to get shot anywhere in the United States than in Mexico. Is there any truth to that these days?"

WHITFIELD: Miss Acosta.

ACOSTA: Well, we haven't seen a lot of shootings here in El Paso. But we've certainly has seen or heard about the shootings across our sister city of Juarez, Mexico. So we know that the violence is occurring in Juarez. We know that it's happening. That kind of violence has not spilled over into El Paso. So while we see people that are getting shot, some of them coming across and going to our hospitals. But we're not seeing the actual violence occurring here in El Paso.

WHITFIELD: Too close for comfort.

ACOSTA: But we're not seeing the actual violence occurring here in El Paso. We're close - safest city in America. And I want to make sure that everyone knows that.

WHITFIELD: OK. Too close. We're going to take a short break. Mike, you have a thought. We're going to try to get to that in a moment. We know this has not popped up in the last couple of weeks, but this is pretty entrenched and it's far reaching. How do we get to this point.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: There's an escalating crisis along the U.S. border with Mexico. Drug cartels are stepping up their deadly attacks. The violence is threatening to spill right over into the U.S.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The first terrorist that this country ever had and this border ever had was a drug dealer. And nobody did anything about it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is a weapon of mass destruction. It's mass destroying every single day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In this case they're using narcotics as their a motivation. So you have the narco-terrorists.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These drugs have been going through this border for the last 40, 50 years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Those are excerpts right there from the documentary "Drug Wars, Silver or Lead," joining us now the man who actually made that film Rusty Fleming, joining us from El Paso. Also here with us, "Los Angeles Times" reporter Sam Quinones, who has worked on these stories for a long time along the border and our Josh Levs, who is fielding a lot of your questions and your comments as well.

All right. Rusty, let me begin with you because your documentary demonstrates this is not something that just popped up out of nowhere overnight. This has been going on for a long time. And you had some riveting images and testimonies there to underscore that.

RUSTY FLEMING: Absolutely. And what you have to understand is this was going on in other regions of Mexico before it popped up here in Juarez.

WHITFIELD: So what happened? Was this just not on U.S. radar? How has it not gotten the kind of attention, I guess that some say it needs now?

FLEMING: Well, one of the reasons is because a lot of people don't understand that cartels of the '90s are gone. That these are not the same organizations that they were just a few years ago.

WHITFIELD: What's different?

FLEMING: And they're not run by the same people any longer. And all of the boundaries that used to guide these cartels have been erased. And they've brought in a new level of violence. They have a whole new vision for their future. They don't want just the wholesale distribution of narcotics in the United States, they now want the retail distribution of narcotics in the U.S. and that requires a whole new level of operations.

WHITFIELD: So Sam, you've been reporting on the Mexican drug war for some time for the "L.A. Times" now, have you seen a real evolution in the way drug cartels are operating and how it continues to threaten if not really impose itself on the U.S.?

SAM QUINONES, METRO REPORTER, "LOS ANGELES TIMES": Well, the main difference as previous guests have said is that the level of violence is enormously intense now. And I've never saw the kind of savagery that you're seeing now. There's one important thing that there's mentioning though. Another thing that's causing this, and it's new, is that the government is no longer standing by idly winking at it the way -

WHITFIELD: The Mexican government?

QUINONES: I'm sorry, the Mexican government, yes. They're no longer sitting around either facilitating it, as has been the case from time to time throughout this Mexican history since the 60s.

WHITFIELD: But aren't there criticisms that they are actually - you know, complicit and in a lot of -

QUINONES: There are some elements of the government that have been. But and particularly on the ground, a lot of times local police departments have no choice. They're so poorly paid. They have no reason not to be a part of this because otherwise they'll be killed. But the government, the national government in Mexico has begun attacking traffickers, attacking their gun sources, and seizing their weapons, and seizing the guys themselves.

WHITFIELD: Yes.

QUINONES: This is something that's very new. This is something that has only been a couple of years older.

WHITFIELD: Yes. And you know, just recently, I read in the "Houston Chronicle" it says when you have instances like the Juarez police captain accused of killing on orders from Juarez drug cartel. I mean this is just a huge, huge problem. And when you hear the federal government now saying we're going to send more D.E.A. agents to the border and we're going to also look at these, inspect these vehicles that leave the U.S., going into Mexico. Rusty, is that an answer? Is that enough right now?

FLEMING: Oh, it absolutely is part of the solution. But you have to also understand that this is not a one-solution problem. This is very complex. It's going to require at every level more cooperation, more collaboration, one of the reasons, and I totally agree with Sam, one of the reasons that you're seeing the escalation is these guys have never been put in a box. These guys have never really been pushed. And it's only been in the last 24 months that the government of Mexico has really started putting the squeeze on these guys. They're not done yet. You have not seen the level of violence that they are capable of unleashing.

WHITFIELD: So Josh, what are -

FLEMING: And it's coming.

WHITFIELD: And Josh, what are our viewers saying about their concerns about what may be done or what could be done?

LEVS: The biggest theme we're seeing on both e-mail and Facebook right now when it comes to this issue is the push for legalization of drugs. One specifically saying it's not just for stoners anymore. But will help counteract what's going on or counteract rather.

Let's zoom in on the board. I want to show a couple, Fred. This first one comes from Graham who says "wouldn't regulating and taxing marijuana, similar to alcohol, end the war and cartels along the border?"

Down here, we got Andrew "we might as well take all the money we spent on the drug war and burn it in a large field for all the good it's doing anyway. Our war on drugs created these cartels. Now legalization of drugs would put them out of business, Fred.

WHITFIELD: Interesting. Sam, real quick, you reported on this. Would that make a dent?

QUINONES: I don't know. What I can say is this, marijuana as an illegal substance is the gateway drug for traffickers. That's how they get started in the drug business. If you're a small-level Mexican drug smuggler, the way you get started is by smuggling a few kilos of marijuana into the United States. You develop your capital, your sources, your routes, your connections and so on. Marijuana is really how Mexican traffickers get started. It's considered a gateway drug for users. I would say it's also a gate way drug for Mexican traffickers as well.

WHITFIELD: San Quinones, Rusty Fleming, thanks so much. Josh, of course, we got more e-mails coming our way, too. Two governors, two American governors asking for the National Guard to be on guard in a big way. Will it help?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton will visit Mexico in two weeks. Talks are expected to focus on how the two countries can combat the flow of drugs from Mexico into the United States and the flow of guns and laundered cash from the U.S. into Mexico. It is the first high level Obama administration visit to Mexico. Let's introduce our guest for this round table discussion. Ione Molinares with CNN en Espanol, George Grayson, a professor of Latin American politics at the College of William and Mary, also with us and Emma Acosta, I believe, is back with us, city council member in El Paso, Texas. And you saw Sam Quinones there in Los Angeles. He is awaiting his return. Maybe he'll jump into this conversation as well.

Josh, fielding a lot of e-mail questions and I-reports. Let's get back to you. We left off talking about legalization of marijuana or drugs in general. And whether that would help at all.

By far, the biggest thing we've been hearing from viewers, we been taking your questions today in Facebook in the e-mail. So many people saying, Fred, that legalization would be the key. It would take power away from them. I had just read you one from Andrew Miller, an e- mail. Here's the thing. A lot of people are saying this but there's also this other argument out there that says that in the end that wouldn't fix it because there's so much violence already going on. So that's what we need to know now. Would that be a solution, even if it were possible to legalize drugs?

WHITFIELD: All right. Let's pose that to Professor Grayson, what do you think?

PROF. GEORGE GRAYSON, COLLEGE OF WILLIAM AND MARY: There's no easy solution. No silver bullet. But we would be better off if we are decriminalizing and legalizing the narcotics. It would certainly take a lot of the money out of the drug trade and would sharply reduce the violence, which generally stems from competition between and among the cartels for turf.

WHITFIELD: OK. Ione, this is a conversation that has taken place in Washington and every where else for a long time, legalization of drugs will it in any way take away the violence in the kind of drug trafficking that we're seeing?

IONE MOLINARES, CNN EN ESPANOL: It could be a case, you know, the drugs are absolutely fueling with the money and is actually grown in the backyard on many, many countries in America. This is a story that comes from Colombia 10 years ago, that spread to Peru, Bolivia. So if you kill the source of where the money is coming from, of course, it's going to be more difficult or discouraging for people to grow coke, grow marijuana, and actually transport it to the United States.

Because, basically the whole business is down. And there's not much appeal to this. This is another portion in the debate, Fredricka. It has to be with the peasants that grow the coke, these marijuana leaves. And most of them do it because they need the money to survive every day. It's harder for them in many places in Colombia, Bolivia and Peru. It's harder for them to pull a big sack of potatoes through a long paved road down to the main center of the town to sell their potatoes.

They just bring a big bag of dry leaves and just move it to some other place where you don't need a big transportation system. But if you will give them an alternative solution to those peasants in those composinos, that might be able to get the problem a little bit solved, in a sense that they don't really care what they are growing. They just really care about paying something, getting some money, and feed their families. And that's something that the Colombian government has been a little bit successful in that sense.

WHITFIELD: And likely this is something that will help spearhead conversations between the secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, when she visits Mexico in a couple of weeks. Let's just say that we also try to get anyone from the State Department as well as the Homeland Security to invite, we invited them to be part of this conversation. All declined because they were unavailable this weekend.

We do understand Homeland Security secretary Napolitano will be walking with Wolf Blitzer later on the week. Iona, let's talk about Washington policy and what is potentially next. You know, the conversations, I guess have been going in circles in Washington about what to do here. But now it seems to feverish pitch that state department, Justice Department, somebody has got to do something fast.

MOLINARES: And it's something that I've talked to one of the congressmen that were involved this week in one of the many hearings they had. And they said, you know, the problem with Washington in this case, and especially Congress as we react to the crisis. But at this point, one of the most important part is to step back, look up, breathe, and look at one important example they already went through a decade ago and this is Colombia.

What a lot of congressman tried to do is look back and see what are the comparisons? Where were they successful? What happened? And how they could help? And what I understand is Washington is trying to give all the important parts that the Mexican government is asking for, helicopters, satellite systems, intelligence support -

WHITFIELD: Which we understand the Pentagon said it had provided up to five helicopters and Marine surveillance vehicle, satellite imagery to help beef up protections along the border.

OK. We also want to delve into amnesty. If you live in Mexico and you are living by the threat of this violence every day, and you want to make your way into the U.S., what are your chances for actually being granted asylum?

Right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: An increasing number of Mexicans are seeking refuge in the United States. The "L.A. Times" says asylum requests filed by Mexican citizens at U.S. border points almost doubled last year to 2,231. The pace has also stepped up this year, in just the first three months of this year. In December, retired Army General Barry McCaffrey, a former U.S. drug policy chief, warned of the possibility of millions of refugees if Mexico fails to crack down on escalating violence there.

So let's begin our roundtable discussion here with immigration lawyer Craig Shagin in Philadelphia; George Grayson, a professor of Latin American politics at the College of William and Mary. He's in Williamsburg, Virginia. Sam Quinones reports on Mexico's drug war for "The Los Angeles Times." And here in Atlanta, our Josh Levs.

All right. Let me begin with you, Mr. Shagin, out of Philadelphia.

Let's talk about double number of an Mexicans seeking asylum in the country. This was bound to happen.

CRAIG SHAGIN, IMMIGRATION LAWYER: I think so. I've been practicing law for 28 years. And until 2008, I did not have a single Mexican asylum case.

WHITFIELD: And now you do.

SHAGIN: And now I do. And I will also say this, that unlike other Mexican migrants to the United States, these people are utterly terrified.

WHITFIELD: And you are representing, I understand, one woman with four children. Her husband was killed by Mexican drug cartels, right?

SHAGIN: That's correct, and was also -- her husband was killed, the husband's brother was killed, and it was done at the husband's sister house. And the cartel members then told her that -- or the gunmen told the sister that they would be back for more, what she understood to be more family members. And a few minutes later, they killed her 16-year-old boy just down the street.

WHITFIELD: Oh boy.

SHAGIN: And it was very ugly.

WHITFIELD: Josh, what are -- what are the questions or comments that we're getting in about whether Americans should be granting more asylums?

LEVS: Yes. You know what? We're getting a lot of people weighing in on immigration issues like that. And they're actually pushing in the opposite direction.

They're saying what we need to be looking at is keeping more people from Mexico out of the country, as what they view as a part of the solution. I'll just show you some of it here.

Let's go to this question right here from Kathleen. "Mexico could easily stop arms coming into the country from the U.S., and the U.S. could easily solve the problems of millions of illegal aliens, the flow of drugs." All these things, she saying, if both were to militarize the border.

And Fred, as I look through the e-mails and the Facebook responses, it's more and more of that. They're not wanting to hear about asylum. They want to hear about stricter measures to keep more Mexicans out of the country.

WHITFIELD: All right. Militarize the border.

George Grayson, professor, what do you think?

GEORGE GRAYSON, PROFESSOR, COLLEGE OF WILLIAM AND MARY: I'm afraid that's going to come to pass in the next few years. The Mexican economy is facing difficulties this year, but next year it's going to really encounter a crisis.

And with the crisis, there are going to be just regular applicants, more visas. There's going to be more pressure in terms of illegal immigrants coming into the United States. The violence will escalate because more people are going to be willing to cooperate with the drug cartels, and the number of desertions in the Mexican army is spiraling. And I can see army troops coming to the consulates and saying we need asylum because we fear for our lives.

So I don't think that's an easy solution.

LEVS: Actually, Fred, can I just follow up on that for just a second?

WHITFIELD: Yes, go ahead.

LEVS: Because what's interesting specifically there, is we talk about this whole idea of militarizing the border. Let me just show you a quick example from Jeff Clark, who wrote on the Facebook page. He says it's always been a porous border. "What makes us in our time think we can possibly do any better today?"

He looks back at previous centuries. Is it even possible to have anything but a porous border for people, for drugs, for weapons, for whatever it is?

WHITFIELD: Well, Sam, with the "L.A. Times," you report a lot on the border, the erecting of the fences, et cetera, trying to beef up security there.

How do you respond to that?

SAM QUINONES, METRO REPORTER, "LOS ANGELES TIMES": Well, it's a tough issue. I say one thing that this war shows that's very interesting that I like to focus on a lot is the city councilwoman earlier from El Paso made a very important point. El Paso is very safe. Across the border, it's a war zone, and El Paso is very safe.

What does that tell us? It tells us that Mexican local institutions, the cities, the local police forces, are simply too weak and need beefing up. So when I lived many years in Mexico, this was continually reinforced throughout the time I lived there. And we can see this now in the drug war. There is no thin blue line in Mexico.

WHITFIELD: Right, because -- well, when the professor brings up the point, though, that deserters, I mean, whether you have, you know, Mexican troops, or whether you have police, et cetera, if after a while they're worried about their own lives, and say, you know what, I'm done with this job, I want to make a run for the border, that's what's going to happen. And that only further weakens any kind of Mexican effort to try and strangle the cartel industry, right?

QUINONES: Sure. Sure. But, I mean, what I think we need to focus on here are things that both countries need to do to reinforce the places where they can best do the best job.

And along the border, local city governments in Mexico are one place, I think, that need reinforcing. They simply -- the problem is that the Mexican government has to use the military.

Why do they have to use the military for what are essentially criminal drug gangs? It's because they look across Mexico today, and they see no local institutions that are strong, no police forces that are well funded, or well equipped, or well paid. And it's simply up only to the Mexican military.

It's a very big job, and one that I think, you know, we need to help them with. But at the same time, there is a big role for what Mexico needs to do in all this and changes that Mexico needs to begin to make to strengthen those local institutions.

They don't have the local law enforcement bulwark. That thin blue line, it is so prevalent, that keeps El Paso safe, while in Juarez it's a war.

WHITFIELD: All right.

Sam, professor; Craig Shagin, Josh, thanks so much. We're going to talk a little bit more about something that appeals to a lot of folks with invested dollars in Mexico. Perhaps you've bought timeshares in Cabo, or maybe bought some beachfront property, or perhaps your kids want to spring break in Mexico. The warnings coming from the State Department now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: Mexico is a popular spring break destination, but its drug wars are scaring away tourists this year.

This is Rosarito Beach -- no kidding -- on Mexico's northern Pacific coast. Pretty empty and desolate there. Well, despite the beautiful weather, tourists are a little alarmed at the latest reports. The only spring breakers our Gary Tuchman saw actually came off a cruise ship, and they stayed for only a few hours.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You're all on a cruise now, but if they said that you could stay in a hotel here for a night or two, how many of you would want to do that? Raise your hand.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Knowing what we know now, probably not.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the fact that the beach is completely empty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My mom freaked out about me going to Mexico. She said that she was really worried about kidnappings and drug lords.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: All right. So, once again, riveting conversations we're having here about these drug wars at our doorstep.

CNN en Espanol's Ione Molinares is with us from Washington. Craig Shagin is an immigration attorney, and he's in Philadelphia. And Josh Levs also receiving a lot of your e-mails.

Lots of concerns about what is really at the root of this. Lots of money being spent by Americans in Mexico, whether they are vacationing, buying property, or perhaps they have business relations with Mexico as well.

Ione, talk to me about how concerning this is for the United States' government, particularly as it pertains to NAFTA.

IONE MOLINARES, CNN EN ESPANOL: It will be giving one extra reason to the position to really say that this is not working and that you should just simply close the deal. But there is also -- one important point is that passing of the trucks from Mexico to the United States has been a contentious issue, and that could some give fuel, too, to the position to basically cut that type of dealing that it was trying to make some -- cut a lot of time and costs by bringing all the trucks full of Mexican products through the border, and basically, instead of stopping at the border, changing to the American trucks, and then make the path to the rest of the country.

That could be one extra issue to look at, even though a lot of the Congress people we have talked to say that they don't want to even consider that possibility. But certainly this is an issue that a lot of people will be talking to and give a lot of ammunition to the opposition to the position of NAFTA.

WHITFIELD: Yes.

Well, Craig, I wonder how any of this might be impacting your job. You're an immigration attorney, and you're also representing people who are trying to seek asylum. Are you watching closely what U.S. policy -- or how policy might change, and whether it makes your job easier or more difficult?

SHAGIN: Well, thank you. It's certainly different. Whether it's making my job more difficult or easy, I don't really consider.

What I am seeing is that there is a real problem. And with that are, you know, lives that are at stake that I believe meet the definition of an asylum seeker in the United States or a refugee. And because Mexico has a population of 110 million, it is right on our border, this is certainly going to present a major policy concern for the United States that is going to have to be dealt with.

I should point out that we're not unique in this regard. There are many countries that border other countries that have similar types of problems where there's a disturbance. One case that comes to mind is South Africa. It has about two million Zimbabweans in it. Syria and Jordan have a large number of Iraqis that have fled because of the war.

So you have this type of situation where there are going to be refugees from an area of violence. And we're going to have to come to grips with the fact that we now face a potential situation where, on our border, we have a large number of people who are truly afraid for their lives under -- or on account of the causes that would allow them to get protection under our asylum laws.

Now, a point was made earlier that this may be made counterproductive because you could have people fleeing rather than solving the problem in Mexico.

WHITFIELD: OK.

SHAGIN: I could certainly understand that, but part of the problem is that if you don't provide fundamental protection for people, they're going to either engage in desperate acts or give into the violence around them.

WHITFIELD: Certainly, it sounds like pleas for more protection on both sides. Thanks so much, Craig Shagin. Appreciate it.

And Ione Molinares.

And Josh,'re going to have a short break right now and we'll get back with some of your questions and comments that you've sent to us, iReports and e-mails, right after this.

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WHITFIELD: The latest "Forbes" magazine list of the world's richest people includes one of Mexico's drug kingpins. Our Wolf Blitzer and Jeanne Meserve talked about it on CNN's "THE SITUATION ROOM."

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WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: One man who officials say is partly responsible for the drug-fueled violence in Mexico and elsewhere has earned a very high honor.

Let's bring in our Homeland Security Correspondent Jeanne Meserve once again. She's got details of what is a strange, strange development.

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and some people are not happy about this at all.

Despite the global recession, Bill Gates and Warren Buffett are still at the top of "Forbes" magazine's annual list of the world's richest billionaires. But joining the software mogul and the investor on the list this year, Mexican drug lord Joaquin Guzman Loera, known as "El Chapo."

He is tied for 701st place with an estimated fortune of $1 billion. Guzman Loera heads the Sinaloa, a drug cartel that is one of the largest in Mexico responsible for much of that surging violence we've been talking about along the U.S./Mexican border.

BLITZER: What's his background, Guzman?

MESERVE: Well, he is 54 years old, he has a 30 year history, Wolf, of drug trafficking across North, Central and South America. In the past few weeks, 781 members of his cartel have been arrested here in the U.S. And the DEA is offering a $5 million reward for his capture.

Mexican officials are not at all happy that this drug kingpin is sharing the spotlight with the likes of Gates and Buffett. Mexico's attorney general said "Forbes" is "... comparing the deplorable activity of a criminal with that of honest businessmen."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: All right. That was yesterday in "THE SITUATION ROOM."

This whole hour we've been focusing on the Mexican drug wars right at your own doorstep.

So joining us again for the discussion is El Paso city councilwoman Emma Acosta.

Your thoughts real quick on NAFTA and how trade may be impacting your city and fueling or not fueling this whole war?

EMMA ACOSTA, EL PASO, TEXAS, CITY COUNCIL: Well, you know, we are -- you know, El Paso is one of the largest international ports of entry, and we deal with over 100 countries in trade. Of course, Mexico is our second largest trade partner.

And, you know, this is important, because we have to continue to operate in our country. And although El Paso is still the third safest city in the nation, we must continue to deal with trade in Mexico. And just yesterday, I was talking to an entrepreneur that has a business in Juarez where she used to employ 1,000 people. And now that's gone down to 100 people.

WHITFIELD: In part because of fear, right?

ACOSTA: And it's partly because of fear. It's partly because the trade isn't there anymore in their country. But we still have to address it here, because a lot of those individuals that are still there actually live in El Paso.

WHITFIELD: And that's exactly the sentiment we're hearing from a lot of e-mailers, too, that Josh has been fielding.

LEVS: I'll show you, Fredricka and Emma, because this is the last big topic we're getting on Facebook and in e-mail. Let's zoom back in. I'll let everyone know, the conversations continuing even after the show at the Facebook page here, Josh Levs CNN.

Check this out, Fred.

This is Waseema, who says, "I'm leaving for Cancun Riviera Maya at the end of April. Is the cartel violence throughout the entire country of Mexico, or is it just the border areas?"

And similar e-mail here. "We have plans to go to Cabo San Lucas in a few weeks. Do you have any specific information about Cabo and any crime incidence in that resort town?" From Sandy.

So how do they know if they're safe or not?

WHITFIELD: Yes.

Let's ask our Michael Ware, who's back with us in New York, to kind of round up the whole discussion this hour.

Michael, any safe spots?

MICHAEL WARE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, yes, obviously the violence is certainly concentrated in particular areas that are vital importance to the cartels. Is there a security threat across Mexico for foreigners? Yes. Is it this raging drug war violence that we see in the border town of Juarez necessarily? No. Go to Mexico, but keep your eyes open. Bottom line here is, America has effectively an insurgency on its border. It's an insurgency that America is fueling with demand for drugs and with the guns with which that insurgency is being fought.

This is going to be a war that's going be battled over the hearts and minds of the Mexican population, much like a counterinsurgency. When the people feel safe, they'll be able to turn on the drug cartels.

WHITFIELD: All right.

WARE: So America, get serious or stop complaining.

WHITFIELD: And we're going to see that getting serious. In the next couple of weeks, the U.S. secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, heading to Mexico to have direct talks with the Mexican government about how to try to contain this.

Big thanks to everyone involved in the hour-long discussion. Very riveting stuff.

Michael Ware; Ione Molinares with CNN en Espanol; Craig Shagin out of Philadelphia; Emma Acosta out of El Paso, Texas; Sam Quinones, Los Angeles; Josh -- did I forget anybody? Oh, Professor George Grayson, also.

Thank you so much from William and Mary.

LEVS: Big team today, Fred.

WHITFIELD: Thanks so much to all of you.

I'm Fredricka Whitfield.

Next weekend during this hour, we're going to be focusing on unemployment, how do get a job and how to this keep the hope.

Don Lemon is coming up next.

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