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President Obama Arrives in U.K.; Who Are G-20 Protesters?; Startling claims about Cheney; Fewer Workplace Raids
Aired March 31, 2009 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Hello again, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez.
And we're going to start with the president's first big trip overseas,, emphasis on big. He's arriving in a place where anger over the economic debacle matches the outrage that's being sensed here in our own country. In fact, it may actually be deeper.
Now, you're watching the president's plane there on the ground. We have been waiting for him to arrive for quite some time. He's arriving at the annual summit of economic powers amid a painful, painful worldwide recession. Massive protests await.
And just hours before his arrival, London police carried out a controlled explosion of a package that was found near the Bank of England. Now, we're not going to be taking our eyes off Obama's events. Nor will we take you away from that picture of the president before he arrives. And as he does, you will see it and you will get reaction from our crews.
But now listen to this as well, and we want to show you this. In France today, workers confronted with layoffs have occupied a Caterpillar factory. They're holding four of their bosses hostage to force negotiations to stop the layoffs. The tense situation is still going on.
In this country, the United States, fights break out at an auto dealership as it tries to close its doors. Now, this is Wayland, Michigan, where you're looking at this. It is an incident filmed by Grand Rapids station WWMT. Police were called to the dealership twice to calm angry workers who had been laid off, all this as the president of the United States arrives in Europe.
Here's how we're going to take you through it.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ (voice-over): Thousands and thousands of protesters converge on London. Why are they there? What are they actually protesting? We want you to know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a lot of anger at the United States.
SANCHEZ: World leaders also converge on London, many blaming the U.S. for starting the economic global collapse. Welcome to London, Mr. President. Why you don't light a match while pumping gas, especially with a baby in the backseat of the car.
ROBERT POWELL, POLICE OFFICER: I believe I'm a very good police officer.
SANCHEZ: The officer who wouldn't let this man see his dying relative gives his first on-camera explanation. You will hear it.
RICHARD B. CHENEY, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Now he's making some choices that, in my mind, will in fact raise the risk to the American people of another attack.
SANCHEZ: Did Dick Cheney undermine President Obama's authority with Israel?
And about those hit squads, we have got it covered for your national conversation, which begins right now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: And we're starting to get some movement now.
There is the president and first lady of the United States, just now coming out. Here's the problem for President Obama as we watch him come down the stairs. Ten years ago, the United States was the unchallenged leader of the economic world.
Our guys from Wall Street to Washington led and the rest of the financial world followed. That's just the way things were. Now, 10 years later, as we watch our president being greeted as day turns to night there in London, the world is saying, we followed you, the United States. You screwed things up.
Right or wrong, that seems to be the perception. This is serious.
Joining us now, CNN correspondent Nic Robertson. He's on the ground following the G-20 summit.
Nic, is that what they believe, that -- and we have heard this time and again -- that a greedy Wall Street in cahoots with Congress and the past administration created this global crisis, and that's what the president's going to be challenged by?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You bet, Rick. That is the perception here. It's not just the perception. It's something, for instance, Prime Minister Gordon Brown of England has been saying, that it was the United States where this problem grew. And we have heard this message coming even more strongly from the Czech leader, from the leader of France, from Angela Merkel, the leader of Germany.
So, this message is something that Europeans are very familiar with, Rick, and they look at President Obama coming in and they know he's kind of popular, he's kind of got that rock star image, but also they know that -- they feel that he's responsible for the trouble a lot of us are in right now.
SANCHEZ: So, in other words, they like the man. We have heard so many reports that seem to indicate that. But they don't like what the United States did over the last 10 years, and they will likely be pointing an accusing finger at him.
ROBERTSON: They will.
And he has said that he's going to come here and listen and lead. So the footsteps of history of 10 years ago, he's still coming to lead. That's what he said. And the Europeans are going to look to him to do that as well.
But there's a lot of division in Europe right now. He's got to walk a fine balancing act between this sort of reform the bad guys and don't let this stuff happen again, as opposed to fiscal stimulus and put more money in to get the economy going. There's a fine line for him to walk.
And they are going to be watching for his lead to walk it. He is still the most powerful world leader. So, whatever they think about who got everyone into the mess, they are going to be looking for his lead also.
SANCHEZ: Talk about watching Marine One, and you see some of the Marines there in their typical orderly way in which they greet the president of the United States.
Nic, do we though where he's going from here?
ROBERTSON: We do.
He's going to go to the ambassador's residence in the center of London. It's a beautiful residence on the edge of Regent's Park, Winfield House. It's going to be about a 20- to 30-minute flight perhaps from Stansted Airport, where you see him right now and aboard Marine One.
And then he's going to take a short break, and then he's expected to visit the American School later in the evening, visit, meet with some embassy staff there, talk to folks there, before he turns in and gets an early night -- Rick.
SANCHEZ: Nic Robertson, my thanks to you for being there for us. Excellent timing as usual. We will be checking back.
Joining us now is global economist Nariman Behravesh. She's good enough to join us as we watch the president now taking off on Marine One.
Mr. Behravesh, as I understand it, many finance ministers -- and this is really picking up on the conversation I was just having with Nic Robertson -- many of these finance ministers over there will use that argument that we postulated just moments ago to say to President Obama, look, your country broke it, and you fix it with your money. You pump up the banks. It's not our responsibility. It's your responsibility.
Is that close to the argument that he's going to hear over there from some of these guys?
NARIMAN BEHRAVESH, CHIEF ECONOMIST, IHS GLOBAL INSIGHT: Yes, he will hear that. But it's not the truth. I mean, it's not really what happened.
Everybody was party to this problem. Everybody gorged themselves on various kinds of debt. This was a global credit bubble. Yes, subprime was sort of a big part of it, but it wasn't the only part of it. So, if I were in his shoes, I would push back and say, we were all in this together. We all need to get out of it together.
SANCHEZ: We're all in this together, but you know damn well these guys are going to make that argument to him. They're going to say, no, you guys were the one who set the tone, and we followed you. And it was a time when we were getting rid of many of the regulations that you and I have talked about. How does he overcome that hurdle?
BEHRAVESH: Well, it's a good question.
I think through leading by example, saying, look, we're doing a lot here, but you have got to be part of the solution, rather than part of the problem. You have to do your fair share as well. But, look, we are doing a lot.
I think that's fair enough. And we are doing a lot.
SANCHEZ: He's going to try and probably tell some of these guys, you have got to do some of your own pumping money into those institutions. I mean, you have got your banks. You have got your financial institutions. You're asking me to put all my money and get really barnstormed by Republicans here in this country and many of his critics to try and fix things. I want you to do the same thing in your country, Europe. I want you to do the same thing in your country, England, France.
BEHRAVESH: That's right.
SANCHEZ: Will they buy that?
BEHRAVESH: Well, the question is not, will they buy it? I think they have no choice. They may drag their feet right now in terms of more fiscal stimulus, but their economies are in probably worse shape than ours. So, six months from now, they're going to come back and do more fiscal stimulus.
Whether they agree to do it at this meeting or not, they're going to have to.
SANCHEZ: You know, it's interesting. Again, for those of you now joining us, we have been watching just at the top of the hour here the president of the United States arrives at the G-20 summit, his first big trip overseas. This is an incredibly important scene that the president is walking into. There's going to be protests. And there's also going to be a lot of pushback from some of the foreign ministers and leaders from all over the world. Security, as you might imagine, is beyond, beyond tight.
The president is going to probably play -- wouldn't you say, the president's going to play, look, don't blame the messenger here? He's going to say, I didn't create this.
Is that going to work?
BEHRAVESH: Well, I think it will work to some extent. He's the new kid on the block. A lot of the stuff happened on the Bush watch, if you will. And so, he can say, look, we're starting from scratch. We're going to try to fix this problem that was not our making.
So, in that sense, he's going to have more credibility, more goodwill on his side, if you will.
SANCHEZ: You know what's interesting? As I'm thinking about this conversation that you and I are having, I'm thinking to myself, as we watched Marine One now getting ready to take off with the president of the United States to start several days of negotiations with world leaders, is he going to have it easier because he's not -- listen to this question now -- because he's not John McCain?
BEHRAVESH: Well, that's an interesting question.
Probably would be my guess, partly because a lot of the European governments are sort of more left-leaning, if you will, and so that gives Obama just a slight sort of familiarity with them. So, the answer is probably.
SANCHEZ: If John McCain were president, would he not be more tied to the past administration and the Republican Party? In fact, he was going to have a minister of finance, as they call them over there in Europe, who steadily now is being blamed for much of the deregulation that caused the mess.
BEHRAVESH: Well, I think you're right. I mean...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: We're talking about Phil Gramm, by the way.
BEHRAVESH: Right.
McCain -- McCain would have been tied much more closely to the problems of the Bush administration, the problems created by the Bush administration.
SANCHEZ: What's the most important piece of advice you would give the president if you could talk to him on the eve of these negotiations he's going to be having with these foreign leaders?
BEHRAVESH: Don't be cowed by these guys. The U.S. is in a very strong position, and I think we need to play our hand, if you will, very well, and just kind of stay cool.
SANCHEZ: Nariman Behravesh is a global economist. And we love to talk to him on this show, because he gets us through situations like this.
My thanks to you, professor Behravesh. We appreciate it.
Who are these people? This is what is going to greet the president of the United States, thousands of protesters arriving as we speak at the G-20 summit. Their causes are varied, but the one thing that unites them is their passion. Is it time we finally hear them out, really? We will, by the way.
And then later, a CNN exclusive interview with Sy Hersh, who details how Dick Cheney may have actually been undermining the Obama presidency before he even got started. This is a story every American should probably see and decide for themselves what to make of it.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, Rick, this is PEI-Anne (ph) in Mandeville, Louisiana.
I just wanted to know why they are wasting all the money with this G-20 get together, when all they do is make promises that they never keep? Why not just stay home and save the bucks? Thanks.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Ah, there's the president of the United States, the money moment we were waiting for, his first big trip overseas, the president and the first lady coming down the stairs.
Then he was greeted by some of the dignitaries there in London. This is not Heathrow or Gatwick, by the way. This is a special airport that they have been -- not just the president of the United States, but other leaders have been arriving at.
We have got some information. As we watch this, let me go over my notes here, because we have just gotten some notes on what the president, what reporters learned on the plane, on Air Force One on the way over here.
Let me read you. And I'm going to kind of read you some of this stuff unedited.
Robert Gibbs started with a readout from Secretary of State Clinton's day in Hague, the news being that the Iranians sent a vice level foreign minister, and special envoy Richard Holbrooke, who we have talked about on this show before, he met with that person briefly.
Also, POTUS spoke -- POTUS is the president of the United States, by the way -- spoke from Air Force One with British Prime Minister Gordon Brown for another G-20 consult phone call. And POTUS, the president of the United States, also spoke by phone with Stephen Harper in the last 48 hours to talk about cars and the G-20.
So, there you have some of the information that we're getting now, questions about Russia, G-20, NATO meetings expected. So, once again, that's the very latest as the president of the United States arrives at the G-20 summit.
And I understand now that we have got some developing news coming in, Chad Myers joining us with news of a -- is this a tornado warning in the state of Florida, Chad?
CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: It is, down by Palm Beach Gardens. We were watching storms up by Destin and up by Pensacola, but this one cell has developed up near Palm Beach Gardens, and it is drifting to the southeast.
And that's towards Riviera Beach, and probably north of West Palm. But this storm is rotating enough that the Weather Service put out a warning that said this could put down a tornado at any time for you in Palm Beach Gardens, North Palm Beach, Riviera Beach and the surrounding communities.
So, keep an eye out. In you're in the area and you can get inside, do get inside. Otherwise, this thing would probably be an easily sightable storm from anywhere here along the shore looking out to the west. Get inside. Stay away from windows. Get to the lowest layer. Most houses down there don't have basements, so get to the lowest level, which would be your bottom level and try to stay away from windows -- Rick.
SANCHEZ: I know. I lived in a bunch of those. Thanks so much, Chad.
(CROSSTALK)
MYERS: All right.
SANCHEZ: Appreciate it. Let us know if anything changes on that.
MYERS: Absolutely.
SANCHEZ: By the way, back to the president's trip, whenever the Group of 20 meets, you can count on tens of thousands of protesters, literally.
News accounts always point out that some of them are anarchists, almost as if they need to be disregarded, implying they don't really believe in anything. But, you know, to be fair, some of these protesters include people who are simply passionate enough about their causes to pay their own way overseas and scream and yell like hell.
These are environmentalists. They are anti-war groups. They are opponents of economic globalization. And that's just the beginning of the list. I want to talk to John Hilary now. He's the executive director of a group that's called War on Want. He's in London. He's with these protesters. He can probably tell us a little bit about what we're going to be seeing in the next couple of days.
John, thanks much for being with us.
JOHN HILARY, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, WAR ON WANT: It is my pleasure.
SANCHEZ: What is your cause?
HILARY: We certainly represent people around the world who are seeing their jobs, their homes and their livelihoods disappear in this current crisis.
We work very closely with people in developing countries of the global south, countries in Africa, in Latin America and Asia. And they are the people who are really feeling the brunt of this crisis as it hits around the world.
SANCHEZ: That makes perfect sense. I guess I should ask you this question, maybe because of the way I posed this particular segment, but why should we as Americans not disregard these people, as we often do?
HILARY: Well, I think that's why people are really interested in seeing President Obama coming to Britain, because the message that he's given is that actually we're in for a new era. It's not about the Bush regime, when it did it seem as if the U.S. wasn't really listening to anybody.
This is an era where he's promised change. He's promised that he wants to be part of the global family again. And I think people are willing to give him that chance, saying to him, yes, we will welcome you, but only if you do listen to what people have to say.
SANCHEZ: So, then what I hear you saying is, this is going to be a little bit of a different protest, not so much perhaps in numbers, but certainly in manner, because of the fact that Barack Obama is the president? Would it have been different if John McCain had come there as the president of the United States?
(LAUGHTER)
HILARY: I think people would have been a bit more concerned about his positioning.
But, remember, we're also looking to our leaders as well. For those of us who are British, we're looking very, very closely at Gordon Brown. And we can tell you that we're a great deal more angry with him, because he and his policies are directly responsible for this crisis over the last 10 years and even stretching back.
We do see this as an Anglo-Saxon problem. If you think back to the years of Thatcher in Britain and President Reagan in the U.S., they started the ball rolling on deregulation, liberalization of the economies, the free market fundamentalism, which has got us into this mess.
So, we're saying it's the G-20 countries which are responsible for the crisis. Now it's time to get out of that crisis.
SANCHEZ: John Hilary, the executive director of a group called War on Want.
Mr. Hilary, we thank you, sir, for taking time to take us through the story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RYAN MOATS, NFL PLAYER: My mother-in-law is dying right now!
ROBERT POWELL, POLICE OFFICER: Listen to me. Listen.
R. MOATS: You're wasting my time.
POWELL: If I can't verify you have insurance, I'm going to tow the car.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: The man at the center of this criticism and controversy, the police officer, finally has given an on-camera interview. How would you like to be this guy? Is he going to be fired? Should he be fired? Is this a common sense violation? Or did he really break rules and regulations in this case? You're going to hear it from him.
And then immigration raids like this one have made huge headlines recently, but you won't be seeing any more of them. That's what the Obama administration is saying. We will tell you what you will be seeing.
Also, the alleged connection between Dick Cheney and the U.S. assassination squads, it's an explosive allegation, so we're delving into it.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, Rick. This is Derek (ph) from Bellevue.
And I just want to say about the Obama and G-20 and Hersh and Cheney and immigration, clearly, to sum it up, our perception on reality is clouded. We're just watching everything fall down a drain.
Thank you.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEYMOUR HERSH, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, "THE NEW YORKER": There is a unit known as the Joint Special Operations Command, JSOC. It's a separately independent unit that does not report to Congress.
It has been given executive authority by the president in as many as 12 countries to go in and kill we're talking about high-value targets. That's absolutely correct.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Anything wrong with that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Is there anything wrong with that? Well, Seymour Hersh gives his answer to Wolf to the question about killing teams allegedly approved by Cheney and whether he tried to undercut President Obama to a foreign country. Undercutting the president of the United States, consider that. Seymour Hersh, a long talk about Obama and the war and Dick Cheney, this is something you probably, as an American, should take note of.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
I told you just moments ago that there's more information on that Dallas police officer, that you're going to be hearing from him because he's done an on-camera interview for the very first time. Already, we're getting reaction in anticipation of that from many of our viewers, at least on Twitter.
Let's go to Twitter, if we can, Robert. Here we go.
This is from a viewer who says as she watches -- right in the middle there, Robert -- "I don't think the Dallas officer should be fired. Being an insensitive jerk isn't illegal."
Interesting comment. We thank you for that. We will be reading some more.
Now, there used to be a saying. Politics ends at the water's edge. You have heard that, right? In other words, we're Americans first. And whatever our disagreements, an American leader doesn't go overseas to disparage another American leader, no less the president of the United States, which brings me to Dick Cheney.
Cheney, you will recall, recently told CNN's John King that Barack Obama is making Americans less safe than they were under his administration while serving with George W. Bush. Fair enough. That's Cheney's opinion and he's entitled to it, even if his actions go against what past leaders have done, George Bush 41, Al Gore, Bill Clinton, John Kerry. All gave the guy who beat them or succeeded them some slack, if nothing else, at least at the very beginning. Give him a chance to get his feet wet.
But if Seymour Hersh has it right, Cheney has now gone even beyond simple criticism. Some would argue he's really crossed the line here. How?
Here's how. Writing in "The New Yorker," Hersh shows Cheney behind closed doors in Israel while he was still vice president talking to the Israelis about president-elect Obama.
"Cheney, who worked closely with the Israeli leadership, portrayed Obama to the Israelis as pro-Palestinian, who would not support Israeli efforts."
But here's the real kicker in what he said to them, the Israelis. In parentheses, Hersh adds this: "In private, disparaged Obama, referring to him at one point as someone who would never make it in the big leagues."
That's Dick Cheney as vice president talking to the leaders of a foreign country about the president of the United States, not big enough for the big leagues.
Would Dick Cheney really say that? My colleague Wolf Blitzer drilled down on this story. He spoke with a former Cheney adviser. And, to be fair, I want you to hear what Cheney's defenders say about this.
Here is his adviser talking to Wolf. This is John Hannah.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN HANNAH, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER TO DICK CHENEY: That claim, putting words into the vice president's mouth, is just absolutely contrary to any reality that I lived with.
In fact, the entire lead-up to the transition to inauguration, the vice president was extremely complimentary about some of the national security picks President Obama had put into place.
BLITZER: "In private," Sy Hersh writes, "Cheney disparaged Obama, referring to him at one point to the Israelis as someone who would never make it in the major leagues. "
HANNAH: Absolutely, again, completely contrary to my own experience with the vice president, either at that time or in the previous eight years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: By the way, that's not all he is denying, because Hersh has more on Cheney.
In a speech this month in Minnesota, the award-winning reporter, Seymour Hersh, revealed that during his time at the White House, Cheney supervised a team of assassins that carried out hits overseas.
Here's what Hersh told a group in Minnesota, followed up by some of Wolf's reporting as well. I want you to watch this. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SEYMOUR HERSH, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, "THE NEW YORKER": It's an executive assassination wing, essentially. It's the Joint Special Operations Command. JSOC, it's called.
They do not report to anybody except in the Clinton -- in the Bush-Cheney days, they reported directly to the Cheney office. Under President Bush's authority, they've been going into countries, not talking to the ambassador or the CIA station chief, and finding people on a list, and executing them and leaving.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BLITZER (voice-over): A Special Operations Command spokesman rejects the report, says their forces operate under established rules of engagement and the law of armed conflict.
He adds that the vice president has no command-and-control authorities over the U.S. military. Two former Cheney aides also reject the claim, as does the former Bush homeland security adviser, now a CNN national security analyst.
FRANCES FRAGOS TOWNSEND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CONTRIBUTOR: There is no such squad wandering the Earth. They don't do this. There is no such thing.
BLITZER: Assassinating political leaders has been banned since 1976 but suspected terrorists are a different story. When it comes to top Al Qaeda leaders like Osama bin Laden, American policy remains unambiguous.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: That we must take out Osama bin Laden and his lieutenants.
BLITZER: Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi is the highest profile commander killed by American forces so far.
Former national security advisor Townsend says the list of authorized terror targets is less than 100; people who can be killed without a trial.
TOWNSEND: These are individuals who either have blood of Americans on their hands or are plotting the death and destruction of Americans or American interests around the world. And those individuals, the U.S. military and the intelligent services are given authority to capture or kill them wherever they're found.
BLITZER: And who makes the list of targets for the President to sign off on?
TOWNSEND: It's the military, it's intelligence, it's law enforcement, the Justice Department. There's a lawyers' committee of lawyers that look at these sorts of issues. And so it's a very rigorous inner agency across the government.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: All right, let me sum this up for you here. Hersh says a U.S. military hit squad that answered to Dick Cheney was rubbing out targets overseas. Former Bush officials are adding some nuance to this. They say the list of terrorist targets was composed of systematically with input from the military, the CIA, the FBI and the Justice Department.
And then there's Cheney's apparent attempt to undermine President Obama's authority with the Israelis, to which you write -- let's go to MySpace if we can -- "Can you imagine the outrage on the right if Al Gore in 2001 had went around -- have gone around would be more correct by the way -- have gone around and telling other nations Bush was making America and the world less safe? Oh, yeah, my bad. That would have been the truth."
SANCHEZ: Interesting comment there from the left. We'll try and keep it even. When we come back, Wayne Slater of "The Dallas Morning News" and the author -- co-author I should say of "Bush's Brain" joins me next to answer those questions.
Also, remember those immigration protests around the country? Everyone was talking about them when they happened and the subsequent raids. There is an important change in policy to tell you about today. And we are going to share that with you right here.
Lots of news, stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: We welcome you back. I'm Rick Sanchez here in the World Headquarters of CNN.
So there are really to parts to this Dick Cheney story that we're talking about. Obviously, one of them has to do with those hit squads that is alleged that he may have had something to do with.
Now, as a result of CNN's reporting on this in the last couple of days, on this show and on "THE SITUATION ROOM" with Wolf Blitzer, we have now gotten a response from members of the military to this allegation from Seymour Hersh.
I want to show you that, all right? Let's go over here. It just came in over here.
Johnny, can you shoot over my shoulder? I want you to go to this paragraph right here where I have my finger. See that.
This is from Hans Bush. He's a colonel with Special Forces. He says in response to the allegation, "All units in the U.S. Armed Forces report to a military chain of command to the Secretary of Defense and the President. The vice President is not in the chain of command and has no command and control authorities over the U.S. military. Members of the special operations forces do not enter foreign countries without the knowledge and consent of the U.S. Ambassador or Chief of Mission."
Again, that's from Hans Bush, Colonel Special Forces.
So as we examine this, did Vice President Dick Cheney cross the line by dissing the President of the United States to another country? Seymour Hersh reports that he told the Israelis before Obama took office that the President-elect was essentially a lightweight.
Joining me now is Wayne Slater, a man who knows Texas politics pretty good; Cheney/Karl Rove politics as well as anybody who's down there.
I guess the first thing I should ask you about is this response that we just got from the military saying, look, the only people that we answer to is the President of the United States and the U.S. Military. You say what?
WAYNE SLATER, SR. POLITICAL WRITER, DALLAS MORNING NEWS: Well, you know, it sounds as if it's really a rebuttal of what Seymour Hersh has written. And yet I think what we learn is a couple of things. One is people are very careful. You have to look at exactly the words that they use.
You listen to that, and that doesn't mean -- and the other thing to think about is, is this someone who would really know what was going on? It sounds absurd, almost like a Tom Clancy novel.
But if you believe what Seymour Hersh has written, what we had were largely independent groups with a very narrow area of line -- line of command taking orders directly or at least reporting to the vice presidency, which is essentially the office in the White House. And so some of these things that the military says may actually look like they're rebutting Seymour Hersh when in fact all they are really doing is saying sure this can happen but not precisely in the exact way with the words that Seymour Hersh uses.
SANCHEZ: You know what I'm thinking about though...
SLATER: Yes.
SANCHEZ: I'm thinking that since Vice President Cheney may have very well been in many ways proclaimed by some of the folks around him, one of the most powerful Vice Presidents in the history of our country, that when they say he only answers to the President, I'm certainly not implying that he was the President, but he may have had as much command and control of this President as just about any Vice President did, didn't he?
SLATER: I think he did. And I'm not sure if what Seymour has written, and actually much of this is what he discussed, although a portion of what we're going to talk about in a minute has been "The New Yorker"...
SANCHEZ: Yes.
SLATER: I'm not sure that Cheney has not kept Bush apprised of a bit of this so that military can say this has gone all the way to the top.
SANCHEZ: All right. Let's talk about the second part of this Sy Hersh (ph) thing. Why would he be playing the Israelis against the President of the United States if that seems to be what Sy Hersh is indicating? I mean, that seems crazy.
SLATER: He's not indicating it. He is...
SANCHEZ: He is reporting it.
SLATER: He's reporting it, exactly. If this is true, this is beyond the pale. This is over the line.
You can imagine what would happen if in fact the roles were reversed and it was a Democrat who was overseas talking to a foreign country and disparaging the incoming President, someone who would become the President of the United States there would be Republicans saying that this is treason.
I'm not saying its treason, but it's certainly it's beyond the pale.
Normally you would think a Vice President would never do this, but it is really consistent with other things that Cheney has done most recently. And that is say fairly bad things considering you're an outgoing Vice President, about the President of the United States raising questions about whether his policies are making America less safe.
Those are the kinds of things I never would think a Vice President would do. If Cheney would do that, I would not be surprised that he would be doing exactly this, undercutting Barack Obama to a foreign country at a time of war.
SANCHEZ: Yes. It's the kind of thing that Americans, probably on both sides, either Republican, conservative, liberal, Democrat or in the middle would kind of shake their head about and wonder whether this just isn't the right thing for anybody to do.
Wayne Slater, as usual, I wish we could make this a little longer. Thanks for talking to us. And we'll get you back.
SLATER: Ok.
SANCHEZ: All right, he decided to light a match while pumping gasoline. Now, you got to be kidding as you're watching this. And there was actually a baby in the backseat of the SUV. You're going to be seeing what happened. Because we've got this video and we're going to let you see it in just a moment.
Also, the Obama administration announces an end to the usual immigration raids on workplaces. They got a different plan now. We'll tell you what it is.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: You know those "no smoking signs" at gas pumps. You've seen them, right? The warnings about dangerous fumes. You can't ignore those. You can't. Here's why.
Take a look at this video. This is amazing. I'm going to telestrate over this a little bit as we're looking at it. That's a guy he's going into a convenience store in Arizona. Walks back to the car and decides, you know what, I'm going to play around with my friend here and I'm going to light a match. Watch what happens when you light a match. Are you ready? That's what happens when you light a match.
You can actually see his friend here, if you look closely. See everybody jumping out of the car now. Now, here's the real interesting news about this story, there's a baby in that car. And you're going to be seeing him in just a little bit.
See right there, he's pulling the baby out. He's getting away with the baby now. A baby in the back seat of the car, there is the explosion.
If you see that one more time, you will actually see the guy right there, you got to keep missing him but you actually see the guy running away. He's on fire; 20 percent of his body was. And there he is, again, running through the screen.
Unbelievable story; maybe a lesson for all of us about what to do or not to do unless you want to be called stupid on national television.
These protests both for and against the crackdown on illegal immigration; it seemed to be just a constant a year ago. And it was felt politically as well.
Here was part of the impact, the Bush administration's answer to all that attention, workplace raids, like this video we saw.
Now, keep in mind it was that same administration that had introduced Immigration Reform. So it was a complete about-face for the Bush administration when they started acting on these raids.
Now, last year alone, there were more than 6,000 arrests, but critics said it was inhumane and un-American and it looks -- looks like the Obama administration agrees with that.
Published reports now seem to indicate that Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano is backing away from the workplace raids. Instead of targeting undocumented workers, what this administration, the Obama administration sees that they're going to do, is they're going to target companies that hire them, go after the employers instead of the people.
Mary Bauer is the director of the Immigrant Justice Project at the Southern Poverty Law Center. My thanks to you guy you do great work.
MARY BAUER, SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER: Thanks for having me, Rick.
SANCHEZ: What do you make of this new Obama plan, do you think it's a -- is it a step in the right direction? BAUER: It's definitely a step in the right direction but it's a first step. Now, what we know is that raids don't work. Raids terrorize communities, raids break up families, raids destroy the civil rights of all workers in that workplace, and not just undocumented immigrants.
SANCHEZ: What are you saying? Make your point maybe more clearly here. When they go after people who are illegals, they also affect the lives of people who aren't.
BAUER: That is absolutely right. And they do that even in the raid itself, where we see time after time these raids don't take place without racial profiling and trampling on the civil rights of every person in that workplace.
SANCHEZ: So they'll knock down the door of someone who they thought was perhaps an illegal or living with an illegal alien but wasn't?
BAUER: That is right.
SANCHEZ: And the person could be an American citizen.
BAUER: That is correct. We see them entering into homes without warrants based on the fact that people look Latino. We see them segregating people in the workplace based on how they look. We see them handcuffing people before they determine what their alienage is.
SANCHEZ: And I get that and certainly it's something most Americans would be sensitive to. But here's the problem with this new plan, how do you get at worker -- I mean at the boss?
The boss is going to say, look, I didn't know he was an illegal. I hired him. He told me he was perfectly legal and so I hired him. And you can't expect me to be the enforcement for the United States of America. I have heard that from them.
BAUER: Right and that's why we say this is a good step in terms of not having these large-scale workplace raids but it's only a first step.
We are never going to enforce our way out of this problem. I mean, estimates are that we have between 12 million and 20 million undocumented people living here in the United States and by -- by many sort of barometers, they are Americans.
They are often people who have lived here a long time, who have U.S. citizen kids, who belong in communities. We are never going to live...
SANCHEZ: So we should parse through and figure out who's in, who's out and make that decision and then...
BAUER: I suggest...
SANCHEZ: ...and we act accordingly? BAUER: We do not want to live in the kind of society that would be produced by rounding up 12 million to 20 million people and deporting them. That's a police state...
SANCHEZ: Yes.
BAUER: And that's a police state that's going to be based on racial profiling. That's un-American.
SANCHEZ: But there's a problem there. And it has to be figured out. And we thank you, Mary Bauer...
BAUER: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: ... for being with us. Good stuff.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RYAN MOATS, NFL PLAYER: My mother-in-law is dying right now!
OFFICER: Listen to me.
MOATS: Right now, you're wasting my time.
OFFICER: If I can't verify you have insurance, I'm going to tow the car.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHE: We heard from Ryan Moats, who was prevented from seeing his dying mother-in-law by a Dallas police officer. Coming up, you will hear what the officer says. He's giving his first on-camera interview. You will be able to experience it yourself as you have the last couple of days on this story.
Now, this is the reality of tough times, people being laid-off. There is a brawl that we're going to be telling you about at a Michigan car dealership. It's happening here and it's happening in France as well. It's happening in London where the President's arriving. We'll tell you about it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
The recession is certainly getting to a lot of us. A Michigan television station caught this fight I'm going to tell you between two employees at a Chevrolet dealership that had just gone out of business.
Speaking to a reporter a few minutes later, one of the men said, "It doesn't seem to matter how hard you work. Somebody else has always seems to be in control of what happens to you." He asked, quote, "Don't you have a right to be a little bit mad?"
It's not just here in America. After Caterpillar announced 700 layoffs in France, the workers were so angry, they took five executives hostage -- they took them hostage, their bosses. They later released at least one executive. The protest, by the way, is still going on.
While most of us wouldn't go that far, we can understand how they feel. No doubt.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT POWELL, DALLAS POLICE OFFICER: To say that I'm scared of being fired is, I would say it's an understatement. I'm terrified. I have a family. I have two young children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Well, maybe he should have thought of that before he let this situation get out of control. That's the cop behind the traffic stop that turned disastrous. He's giving an on-camera interview for the first time.
We're going live to Dallas.
Stay with us. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Robert Powell says he's sorry. Robert Powell says he made a mistake. Robert Powell says he doesn't want to lose his job.
He's a very different police officer than the man that you've seen in that dash-cam video pulling over an NFL player and keeping him from a dying loved one's bedside.
Watch this report now filed once again by Ed Lavandera.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
POWELL: Your attitude sucks.
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): That's the voice of Dallas police officer Robert Powell on this infamous dash-cam video from March 17th, pulling over NFL running back Ryan Moats and his wife. The couple was racing to the bedside of her dying mother.
POWELL: The first thing I want to say is I'm sorry for everything that's happened. I'm sorry to the Moats family.
LAVANDERA: But now Powell sounds much different.
POWELL: I used poor judgment and the other officers and anybody else that is going to watch this interview; I want them to understand that that is not me. That is not every officer that is out there on the streets across the country. I hope anybody watching this, officer or not, can see my mistake and know that, hey, this is not the way to handle this kind of situation. LAVANDERA: Powell is currently on paid leave from the Dallas Police Department. The confrontation has created a public relations nightmare for the department and Powell says he's received death threats and is worried about the safety of his two small children after the dash-cam video was released.
POWELL: I need your insurance.
RYAN MOATS, NFL PLAYER: I don't know where it's at. I don't have insurance.
POWELL: You don't have insurance?
Listen if I can't verify you have insurance...
MOATS: My mother-in-law is dying right now. You're wasting my time.
POWELL: If I can't verify you have insurance I'm going to tow the car.
MOATS: What you ask for? You asked for my insurance.
POWELL: Stop talking. You can either settle back, cooperate or I can just take you to jail.
MOATS: This is what you asked for. You asked for insurance and registration so here you go.
POWELL: Shut your mouth. You can cooperate and settle down or I can just take you to jail for running a red light. Is that what you want to do?
MOATS: Go ahead.
POWELL: I can screw you over. I'd rather not do that. Your attitude will dictate everything that happens and right now your attitude sucks.
MOATS: Yes, sir.
LAVANDERA: Ryan Moats and his wife said Powell pointed his gun at him. Powell says he did not but the officer is unable to say why he didn't just let Moats go inside the hospital.
POWELL: I didn't believe there was an emergency. For why I didn't let them go in, I don't know. And I should have. And I don't know why I said all that. It was my mistake. I was wrong. That was my mistake.
All I was trying to do was get him to calm down. And I raised my voice to him, and it was going back and forth and we were accomplishing nothing. That was my mistake. I shouldn't have said that.
LAVANDERA: Whether the apologies will save his job at the Dallas Police Department is unclear. He's been on the force three years. Right now the department is in the midst of an investigation.
POWELL: To say I'm scared of being fired, I would say it's an understatement. I'm terrified. I have a family. I have two young children. They are my life, and I work hard for them.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: Ed Lavandera joins us now live.
Eddie, is this guy going to keep his job?
LAVANDERA: It's hard to say at this point because we know that there's been a few other incidents that have come up that we understand now that Dallas police are looking at involving this particular officer. So I imagine this will take several days if not a couple of weeks to go through all of this.
And, of course, at least from the Powell standpoint, they are waiting for a lot of this just to die off and to calm down so that the intensity of all this can blow over.
SANCHEZ: At least the apology is now on the record and on the air.
Ed Lavandera, thanks so much for joining us with that.
Wolf Blitzer joining us; you've been following the president's European trip. Is the fact that President Obama is liked in Europe likely to hurt him here at home?
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR, "SITUATION ROOM": No, I think it's likely to help him here at home because he's going to be warmly received by the European leaders even though several of them, as you know Rick, they have serious problems with some of his economic policies, some element here that wants to go toward protectionism, trade barriers, stuff like that. But he's going to be very, very warmly received while he's in Europe and all the various stops.
I assume that's going to help him back home because it's going to probably be in marked contrast to former President Bush who wasn't always that warmly received.
SANCHEZ: Wolf Blitzer, looking forward to it. Nice job with that Sy Hersh exclusive yesterday, everybody's talking about it as usual.
BLITZER: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: Wolf Blitzer in "THE SITUATION ROOM."
President Obama should not pull back on immigration raids. Many of you are writing to me and telling me that, boy in no uncertain terms. It's what you want. It's what we'll tell.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Let's go quick to the board. Right to the very top if we can. We'll try and get all three in them, Robert.
These are people reacting to the story about Obama stopping immigration raids.
"Hey, Rick. Do you work in construction as a legal alien? I lost three jobs to illegal aliens. They are criminals, period."
Next one. "Sorry, Mary, this Dem wants raids to continue. Gives employers too easy an out and more will enter."
Last one. "Illegal aliens don't have civil rights here. Go after employers? How? Who squeezed Obama to wimp out illegals?"
That's the response we got on that story.
Let's take it over to Wolf Blitzer. Here is "THE SITUATION ROOM."
