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Pittsburgh Police Shootings; Examining the Binghamton Shootings
Aired April 04, 2009 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Massacred in a barrage of bullets: More than a hundred rounds take down police officers in Pittsburgh. And in Binghamton, New York, civilians the ones gunned down. The senseless carnage here at home catching the attention of the president and the world.
The news starts right now.
Hello, everyone. I'm Don Lemon.
We begin tonight in Pittsburgh. For the first time in 14 years, the Pittsburgh Police Department has lost an officer in the line of duty. In fact, it lost three in one incident. They were fatally gunned down this morning while responding to a call of a domestic disturbance at a local home. The fallen officers: Eric Kelly, Paul Sciullo, and Stephen Mayhle.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF NATE HARPER, PITTSBURGH POLICE: The fallen one officer approaching the house, he actually (ph) opened fire on the officer, fatally wounding him. The second officer who was behind the first officer, he also sustained a fatal wound to the head as well. The third officer who was on his way home, actually, heard the call come over the radio, and decided to back these officers up, was also fatally wounded as he tried to assist both officers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Several other officers were wounded before the gunman surrendered. Police say during the rampage, Richard Poplawski wore a bullet-proof vest and was shot multiple times in the legs. Earlier today, a neighbor talked here on CNN about the crime scene, and also a friend says of the gunman, he is dumbfounded.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEFFREY LOFFLER, HIGH SCHOOL FRIEND: I don't know what to say. I'm truly, truly -- my mind is going like this, trying to figure out a reason or make what was going so bad for this kid that would make him want to do this.
BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR: We heard from that reporter that was on the scene that in a period of 20 minutes, there were some 80 shots fired. Did you hear that? VOICE OF RANDY BRANCH, NEIGHBOR: Oh, yes, for sure. In fact, I was -- I was on the phone with a friend of mine who called to check in and he's like, what is that noise? To be honest, I think it's more than 80 shots. I mean, the amount of artillery that you -- I mean, that I can see right now in the neighborhood is way more than 80 rounds, I'm sure.
EDWARD PERKOVIC, SUSPECT'S FRIEND: Well, there was a domestic dispute at the household and I guess the police came to take his firearms away from him. He always said that if anyone tried to take his firearms, he was going to stand by, what his forefathers told him to do, and defend himself. And I guess he went about it the wrong way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Poplawski has been charged with three counts of homicide. Police say they had responded to calls at the house before, disturbance calls, but they say they still haven't confirmed a motive in this case.
We want to go to Binghamton, New York, now, and one of the worst mass killings in the state's history there. Authorities are withholding the identities of 13 people shot to death yesterday, many of them multiple times at a community center or immigrants. Officials say -- officials say notifying the victims' families is complicated by the fact that many of those relatives live in other countries.
But we have learned a great deal more about the killer tonight, and what might have provoked his deadly rampage. Here's CNN's Allan Chernoff.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Jiverly Wong had some violent thoughts, said Donald Ackley, who worked with Wong at the Shop-Vac vacuum cleaner manufacturing company.
DONALD ACKLEY, FMR. CO-WORKER OF WONG: (INAUDIBLE) he'll shot the president. I don't know -- I don't know who he's -- I don't know who he's talking about, whether he was talking Obama or he's talking about Bush. So I told him the FBI was outside looking for him the next day, you know. And he got all crazy about it.
CHERNOFF: Wong got a handgun permit in 1996. He practiced target shooting, say acquaintances, and police say Wong was briefly on their radar.
CHIEF JOSEPH ZIKUSKI, BINGHAMTON, N.Y. POLICE: In 1999, the -- excuse me, the New York State Police obtained information from a confidential informant that he was planning a bank robbery, that he had a crack or cocaine habit and had handguns.
CHERNOFF: But there's no record Wong did rob. To the contrary, former coworkers say he was intelligent, talented, and helpful, as an engineer at Endicott Interconnect Technologies, and more recently at Shop-Vac Corporation, where he installed motors into industrial vacuum cleaners. In November, Shop-Vac closed the facility, causing Wong to lose his job, which made him distraught. On top of that, his English was poor and he was teased for it.
ZIKUSKI: He recently lost a job, spoke very little English and he said people were disrespecting him and looking down upon him and he wasn't happy with his life.
CHERNOFF (on camera): Wong took English classes at the American Civic Association, but he dropped out last month. And on Friday, in a horrible irony, the civic association, a group that helps immigrants, ended up being the target of Wong's fury.
ANGELA LEACH, AMERICAN CIVIC ASSOCIATION: Whatever drove this individual to do what he did, I cannot possibly fathom.
CHERNOFF (voice-over): We may never know if Wong in his misguided mind decided the association was somehow to blame for his misfortune. He spoke only with his actions, arriving there heavily armed, wearing a bulletproof vest and without saying a word, unleashed his fury on innocent victims.
Allan Chernoff, CNN, Binghamton, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: All right, Allan.
President Barack Obama is overseas attending to major issues affecting the U.S. and the world, but he took a moment to share his concerns over the latest wave of bloodshed back home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRES. BARACK OBAMA, UNITED STATES: My administration is in communications with law enforcement officials -- federal, state, and local. We are monitoring the investigation. I am heartbroken for the families who survived this tragedy and it just underscores the degree to which, in each of our countries, we have to guard against the kind of senseless violence that the tragedy represents.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: That's what the president is saying overseas. Meantime, here at home, Neil St. Clair is with News 10 Now. He joins us live from Binghamton.
What is the latest at the scene now, Neil?
NEIL ST. CLAIR, NEWS 10 NOW REPORTER: Good evening, Don.
The latest at the scene right now is pretty much what you've been hearing. We still have a confirmed 13 dead. We're waiting to get those names. The press conference gave us a few more details. We know a little bit more about Jiverly Wong, but we still don't know anything about his motives and the community here is still just in shock, still trying to recover from one of the worst events, probably the worst event to ever hit this area.
LEMON: And, Neil, some of the people -- as I understand, people have been dropping by and people have been talking. Have you been hearing from either relatives of the victims or anyone coming out today to speak about this gunman?
ST. CLAIR: Several people. We've spoken to a few of the victims' families yesterday. Of course, many of them were heartbroken, waiting to hear from loved ones, trying to reunite with loved ones, and when they did, obviously, some very heartfelt scenes.
We spoke with some of his neighbors a little bit earlier today, and it was almost that typical line. You heard them saying, "He was a quiet guy," "Kept to himself," "I really didn't know too much about him," he seemed like a nice guy at that time." A lot of them expressing happiness, in a sense, if we can use that turn, here, that he didn't turn the rampage on them in their own community over on Taylor Street in Union.
LEMON: All right. Neil St. Clair, we appreciate it. Thank you very much for your reporting from the scene in Binghamton, New York.
In the meantime, President Barack Obama has arrived in the Czech Republic. Earlier, he wrapped up this summit with NATO leaders in France. Mr. Obama plans meetings in Prague with Czech leaders as well as a major speech there.
Our Suzanne Malveaux is traveling with the president.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, President Obama continues to face challenges on every stop of his European trip, but so far he is coming away with tangible results.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
OBAMA: The United States came here to listen, to learn, and to lead.
MALVEAUX (voice over): President Obama went into the NATO summit with relatively low expectations.
OBAMA: This was not a pledging conference.
MALVEAUX: So not surprisingly, he left quite pleased, after getting concrete commitments from NATO allies to contribute to the beefed up mission in Afghanistan.
OBAMA: I am pleased that our NATO allies pledge their strong and unanimous support for our new strategy.
MALVEAUX: Three thousand new NATO forces to help provide security, leading up to Afghanistan's fall elections. Two thousand additional NATO troops will make up small teams to mentor and train Afghan army units, and a small contingency to also train Afghan police. Some of president Obama's biggest critics before the NATO summit ended up becoming his biggest supporters, including Germany and France. ANGELA MERKEL, GERMAN CHANCELLOR (through translator): This concept is now going to be implemented 100 percent with our new strategy on Afghanistan.
PRES. NICOLAS SARKOZY, FRANCE (through translator): This union between Europe and the United States is starting to bear fruit.
MALVEAUX: Obama was also asked about a controversial new Afghan law signed by President Hamid Karzai, that critics say make it legal for husbands to rape their wives.
OBAMA: I think this law is abhorrent, but I also want people to understand that the first reason we are there is to root out al Qaeda so that they cannot attack members of the alliance.
MALVEAUX: Earlier in the day, NATO leaders marked the 60th anniversary of the alliance, as well as France's return as a full member. The leaders of France and Germany met in the middle of a bridge connecting their two countries to show solidarity. Ceremonies recognized the fallen and welcome new members Albania and Croatia.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: President Obama's now here in Prague, the Czech Republic, where he'll deliver his first major foreign policy speech of his presidency. His message is his goal is to rid the world of nuclear weapons -- Don?
LEMON: Suzanne Malveaux -- thank you, Suzanne.
It can happen anytime this weekend, North Korea plans to launch what it says is a communications satellite, but the U.S. believes it's actually a cover for a long-range missile test. State-run media say launch preparations are complete. President Obama calls the planned launch provocative, but the U.S. has been vague about the potential consequences North Korea might face.
It's spring on the calendar, but the plains are getting a big old blast of winter.
Plus, three Pittsburgh police officers gunned down. More details from the ground there.
And, as always, we want to know what's on your mind tonight about any of the stories that we're covering -- Twitter, Facebook, MySpace or iReport.com. We appreciate your responses.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: We want to take you back now to Pittsburgh, site of a tragic shooting this morning that claimed the lives of three officers. There you see them on your screen.
We want to go to Rick Earl of affiliate WPXI. He joins us now with the details. And, Rick, it is a tragic story. We've heard this is the first time in 15 years that an officer has lost his life there. What are you hearing from the ground?
RICK EARL, WPXI REPORTER: That's right. I think the last time was 1995, I believe. But this is the first time ever that three officers lost their lives in one incident like this.
And people here are just devastated. The mayor at a news conference here this afternoon called ate great, tragic loss, an act of senseless -- a senseless act of violence here in the city of Pittsburgh. They are still trying to come to grips with what happened here.
One police officer told me, basically, these officers were ambushed early this morning. They were responding to what they thought was a domestic dispute between a son, a 23-year-old man and his mother. The two officers arrived on the scene. They walked up to the house, right as they got to the doorway, the suspect, 23-year-old Richard Poplawski, opened fire from a window in the house and he just began shooting at those two officers, shooting them in the head, killing both of them.
And an officer who had just gotten off duty, he had worked an overnight shift, it was just after 7:00 o'clock this morning and he was actually driving home. He lives about two blocks from the scene of that shooting and he was actually driving home to his house. He heard the frantic call for help from his fellow officers and he frankly raced to the scene at that point to try to help these officers.
LEMON: And went to help -- yes.
EARL: Yes. He went there to help them, and when he arrived, he was shot and killed. So he was the third officer shot and killed.
LEMON: Rick.
EARL: Two other officers injured. Yes?
LEMON: I want to ask you this because we've heard several reports about whether or not the gunman was upset because he lost his job or he wasn't -- maybe he was a day laborer of some sort and wasn't getting work and he felt embarrassed about losing work. What do you know about that?
EARL: Yes. You know, a lot of that information is just about -- is just beginning to coming in. We do know some stuff about his background. We know that there have been domestic disputes at that house before. The police chief here said the police have been to the house, he wouldn't say how many times but they had been there for prior domestic disputes.
We also know that at one point, this young man had enlisted in the Marine Corps, but he had so much trouble, he was actually kicked out of boot camp. So, he was booted out of boot camp. And then we also learned that he was actually kicked out of a local high school here when he was a teenager in high school. So, he's had some obvious documented troubles.
LEMON: And, Rick, real quickly, because we've got a lot of news to get to here.
EARL: Yes.
LEMON: But I want you to answer this for me. We've heard that he was concerned that someone was going to take his right to bear arms away. Is that -- have you heard that?
EARL: No, I mean, we have spoken with some people who have indicated that potentially, but that was just one or two people off the cuff. We don't have any documented information or confirmed information ...
LEMON: Or official -- yes.
EARL: ... from police about that.
LEMON: Yes, great reporting. Rick Earl of affiliate WPXI, we appreciate your joining us. Thank you very much for that.
Other news now: Mangled wreckage after a bus crash in Nevada today. Take a look at this picture. You can hardly tell that it is a bus here.
It was leaving a Reno resort when it crashed, killing at least one person and injuring more than two dozen others. A state transportation official says the bus crashed through a guardrail and fell into a culvert. No word on what caused the crash. The bus carries workers to and from the resort at Squaw Creek.
A developing story in Texas at this hour to tell you about. Everybody in the Panhandle town of Wheeler, about 1,400 people or so have been ordered to evacuate because of an approaching wildfire. Now, Wheeler is about 90 miles east of Amarillo, near the Texas/Oklahoma state line.
The blaze has charred about 2,000 acres so far, but no reports of injuries. Winds are gusting up to 60 miles per hour in the region. Dozens of fire departments are on the scene there.
It's a good time now to get to our meteorologist here, Bonnie Schneider. She's joining us in the CNN severe weather center.
You heard about the winds there. Also, you're tracking a blizzard in the plains.
BONNIE SCHNEIDER, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes, and they're actually all related, Don. It's all part of that same storm system.
But the reason we haven't been able to show you pictures of the fire thus far in and around the Wheeler area is because it's too dangerous for helicopters to fly, the winds are that fierce. So, wind advisories are posted. There's a high wind warning that goes all night, straight until 1:00 o'clock in the morning on Sunday. The gusts are getting as high near 60. Here's where Wheeler County is, just near the Oklahoma border to the east of Amarillo, Texas. There's also a red flag warning not just for Wheeler, but really, for the entire region -- west Texas well up into Oklahoma, due to strong winds, dry conditions. Notice the relative humidly will get down to less than 80 -- 15 percent and the temperature is at 86. So, you have all the conditions that are right for fires to spread.
But to the north, the temperatures are cold enough for it to be snow with this storm system. We have winter weather advisories and heavy snow falling across South Dakota right now. All of that snow is headed further off to the east. And in advance of it, we're getting such strong thunderstorms that we actually had tornado warnings in parts of south central Nebraska earlier this evening. So we're tracking that, plus wintry weather across the northeast. Windy weather, in addition, and that is really having a big effect on travel.
The wind advisories in the northeast include Connecticut down through New York, Pennsylvania, Upstate New York, and then all the way to Scranton. These winds have really affected the air travel for today. We've seen lengthy delays, and even into the evening hours, we continue to see that tonight. Look at JFK, the airport delays continue to be up to two hours and 20 minutes, Don.
So, tough night to travel in the northeast and we'll have more on the west Texas fire situation a little later on.
LEMON: Bonnie, thank you very much.
A tragic day in American history captured on film. Never-before- published photos of the day Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was killed. I'll talk with the photographer.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: In Atlanta, a solemn ceremony to mark the death and life of a remarkable man. Hundreds of people gathered today at the Martin Luther King, Jr. Center to mark the assassination of the late civil rights activist. There you see his children placing a wreath there.
Dr. King was killed on this date 41 years ago and he stood on a balcony -- as he stood on a balcony outside the Lorraine Motel in Memphis, Tennessee. Forty-one years ago, April 4th, 1968 -- a day that's burned into American memory.
The website, Life.com, has posted never-before-published photos of that very tragic day. The man who took the pictures is a former "Life" magazine photographer, Henry Grosinsky (ph) --Groskinsky. He joins us now from Fort Lauderdale, Florida.
And, first of all, make sure I pronounce it correctly? Grosinsky?
HENRY GROSKINSKY, FMR. LIFE MAGAZINE PHOTOGRAPHER: Groskinsky.
LEMON: Got it. OK, I have it right, Groskinsky. GROSKINSKY: But either one -- either one is OK.
LEMON: All right. As long as we -- as long as we kind of get it right. Thank you very much for joining us.
GROSKINSKY: Yes.
LEMON: Why haven't these images been seen until now?
GROSKINSKY: Well, I think it was a matter of a deadline when the film arrived in New York. And once they saw the photograph by Joseph Lowe (ph), that was -- that told the whole story. People were pointing, Martin Luther King was lying dead on the, you know, the sidewalk or the balcony, actually, and I think that was it.
LEMON: Yes.
GROSKINSKY: And no one ever looked up after that.
LEMON: Yes. Now, this is a -- we're looking at images of, you know, a meeting on that day, but there's some very -- there's -- you have two images that are really kind of hard to look at, because they were taken moments after the shooting. I want you -- can you see CNN where you are? Are you able to see?
I want you to describe the pictures that we're looking at. I know they're hard to look at for some people, but it's important that we show you to them. Go ahead, Mr. Groskinsky.
GROSKINSKY: I don't actually see the photographs ...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: There's the one with the broom.
GROSKINSKY: Yes.
LEMON: There's a gentleman there and you can see through a door.
GROSKINSKY: OK. There's a -- the one with the broom is that they're cleaning up -- they're actually cleaning up the blood, which was pretty gruesome to see. And the other photograph -- yes, the one with the broom, he's sweeping up the blood, but before that, he was scraping the blood together and putting it in a jar.
LEMON: Right.
GROSKINSKY: Yes, he was putting it in a jar. And I guess that's so that it just doesn't spread all over the place. But that was a pretty gruesome scene to behold.
LEMON: Yes. It's kind of hard for me to even look at that.
GROSKINSKY: Yes.
LEMON: You know, I'm sorry if people, you know, take offense with those, but part of -- part of what we do here is to bring light to very difficult situations in the news media. So those pictures are tough to look at. But, boy, oh, boy, it took a long time for them to come out. And just because of this project that you're involved in, that's the reason why these came out.
So far, what's the response?
GROSKINSKY: It's been unbelievable. Life.com ran those photographs on the Web on Thursday and Friday morning, and all day, the phone was off the hook. Everybody wanted to know the story behind them and why it took so long to show it. And I can -- I can only say that it was a matter of timing.
LEMON: Did anyone say to you, you know, because this man was so beloved, not only by America, but by the world, that, you know, about the pictures being so gruesome to look at and really tough to look at, did you get any criticism about that?
GROSKINSKY: No, not really. The people were interested in -- at least a lot of people I spoke to, they were interested in the shot that looks from across the way from those two buildings, and they were also interested in looking at the buildings with the windows where the shots might have been fired from. And, you know, that's how they -- what they saw as impressive.
(CROSSTALK)
GROSKINSKY: Also, the ...
LEMON: Go ahead.
GROSKINSKY: Also, the photograph of the man standing on the balcony in a very somber mood, and like he was reflecting on what was going on or what was going to happen afterward.
LEMON: You have a picture here as well, I can't make it up, I'm looking at a small monitor here, of two gentlemen hugging. One of those -- is that Andrew Young?
GROSKINSKY: That's Dr. Abernathy.
LEMON: That's -- OK, because his head is covered, yes.
GROSKINSKY: Yes.
LEMON: That's Ralph Abernathy in there hugging someone. And then after that, there's a suitcase. Tell us what the suitcase is all about.
GROSKINSKY: OK. The suitcase is one of the saddest parts there. This is Martin Luther King's, I guess, traveling suitcase.
And what you're seeing in there is his pajamas. On top of the pajamas, that's a can of, what you call it, shaving cream. And then on the far end is also the aftershave lotion. There is a -- yes, a brush. There's a newspaper below, which I don't know what it is. And then there is a book.
And in the book, it's the -- the name of the book is "The Strength to Love." And that's the way Martin Luther King left it, went out on to the balcony, and very sad, never to return to it. And it's all very personal.
LEMON: Yes. And I wanted you to describe those pictures, because you have more of a personal connection than I do. I could have reeled off what they are, but coming from you, I think it means more and it couldn't have been said better.
I appreciate you coming on. Henry Groskinsky, amazing photographs, sir. Thank you.
GROSKINSKY: Thank you.
LEMON: Thank you.
And we want to tell you, this is a programming note for you. In the next hour here, CNN presents "Eyewitness to Murder: The King Assassination." CNN's Soledad O'Brien reconstructs the evidence and story and brings you a firsthand eyewitness account. It's coming up at the top of the hour. Just about 31, 32 minutes, you're going to see that fascinating piece of work there -- Soledad O'Brien and "CNN Presents."
Two days and two heavily armed gunmen, 16 people killed, including three police officers. We're going to recap that story and bring you some new information.
Plus, is it time to reinstate the federal ban on assault weapons after these and other recent shooting rampages? We've been getting a lot of responses from our viewers, saying, maybe we should. We're going to speak to a legendary former FBI agent who always weighs in on this and is very outspoken about it. We want to hear his words following these shootings.
Back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right. If you're just joining us, we want to tell you about three police officers were gunned down and killed today in an apparent ambush at a Pittsburgh home. The alleged gunman, who was wearing body armor and armed with an AK-47, later surrendered. The motive here unclear but some of his friends said he expressed fear some of his guns would be taken away. Police had been responding to a domestic dispute call at the home.
And then we go to Binghamton, New York. Grief has overtaken the community where 13 people were killed yesterday at an immigrant community center. The gunman who killed himself was an immigrant from Vietnam who had complained about not being able to find work and about people making fun of his poor English. He was also wearing body armor. Deadly shooting rampages appear to be on the upsurge. Just last week, a gunman killed eight people at a North Carolina nursing home. On March 21st, another gunman killed four Oakland, California, police officers. And earlier in March, an Alabama gunman killed 10 people. Gun control advocates are calling on congress to reinstate the federal assault weapons ban, which expired five years ago.
Friends say the suspect in today's Pittsburgh shooting had earlier expressed fears about a new federal gun ban. Greg McCrary is retired from the FBI, where he served in various investigative capacities throughout the United States. He is also the author of "The Unknown Darkness," which folks on the profiles of criminals. He joins us by phone tonight.
Thank you very much for joining us. Would stricter gun laws or even bringing back the assault weapons band, if that was reinstated, would that help us? Would that help out at all in these situations?
GREGG MCCRARY, FORMER FBI INVESTIGATOR (on phone): Well, it might. Because the issue, obviously, is to keep these weapons out of the hands of these mentally distorted individuals that are committing these crimes. I think there are a couple of points we need to keep in mind here. One, these things, they're a low probability, high consequence event.
LEMON: They're rare, you say. But they come in clusters.
MCCRARY: They come in clusters and that's what we have to be aware of, we're in the middle of one of these clusters right now. What happens is individuals who are on the edge and they see somebody else do it, they think it's a good idea and it pushes them over the edge. So these things come in clusters. So everybody needs to be vigilant now about this situation until we get -- at least this will we get on the other side of this.
LEMON: So you're saying stricter gun laws and a reinstatement of the assault weapons ban, you said they might, they might help. Are you hedging there? Why are you saying "might."
MCCRARY: You can do this, but then a mentally distorted individual can steal a gun, they can get it in other ways. I certainly think that's the issue. If we the keep the guns out of the hands of these people, then even if they come in and want to hurt somebody, if they're just armed with a baseball bat, their going to do far less damage than they will if they got an AK-47.
LEMON: OK. This is a perfect time to bring this up. The president is visiting Europe right now and going all over Europe talking about issues that affect the U.S. and the world, the economy among them. He responded to the violence that happened yesterday in Binghamton, New York.
Doing some research here on gun laws, looking at almost every country in Europe, it lays it out, specifically. You know, not legal, not legal, not legal. But then once you get to the United States, which is at the very bottom, alphabetically, it says that gun laws, gun control is legislated and enforced at both the federal and state levels. And you don't see that in any of the European states and in many ways, their crime rates are lower than ours, less gun violence, their police officers don't even carry guns in some places.
MCCRARY: That's correct. You can just look in any given state. I live in Virginia, for example, is one state where we have all sorts of exceptions. There are laws, but there are all sorts of exceptions to the laws. Certain rules apply if you go to buy over the counter in a gun shop, but if you go to a gun show over the weekend, then those rules don't necessarily apply. So there's all sorts of loopholes and we have a very patch quilt sort of approach to this that we really need to address.
LEMON: So it's something that is very concise, might be the order here. Not saying that -- everyone talks about the Second Amendment, their right to bear arms, but that's not the right to go around and kill people and terrorize people just because you have the right to bear arms.
MCCRARY: No, that's absolutely correct. That's absolutely right. You know, weapons in the hands of responsible citizens, you know, that's fine. But we've got to keep them out of the hands of these mentally disordered offenders who commit these horrific crimes.
LEMON: So what is our lesson again? Because the one person who can probably weigh in on this and have the most influence is the president. Since he's over there in Europe now, and they're not perfect, but it seems that their gun laws seem to be at least working in a way that ours are not.
MCCRARY: Well, they can certainly inform us as to what works and what doesn't. In the short-term, we just all need to be vigilant about this. And certainly the press coverage needs to be non-sensational. You need to report this, but what we know pushes these guys over the edge is the sort of sensational coverage. So responsible reporting and taking a look at these laws and being vigilant right now I think is the way to go.
LEMON: And you would think, Mr. McCrary, one person would say, one is liberal, one is conservative, it's a human issue, a life issue. Not a liberal versus conservative issue.
MCCRARY: Nobody is out killing liberals or conservatives. These guys are out killing our fellow citizens. And that's the issue. That's the problem.
LEMON: Very well put. Greg McCrary, we appreciate it.
MCCRARY: You're welcome.
LEMON: It's one of the biggest hot button issue in politics. We're talking about gun control and the assault weapon ban. Should it be reinstated? Would that be an infringement on our Second Amendment rights? Everyone has an opinion and so do these guys. We'll find out what they think and what they're hearing. No-holds-barred, folks. And as always we want you to weigh in as well. We'll get your responses, Twitter, Facebook, MySpace or ireport.com. We're back, moments away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right. We know this is always a very hot button issue, so, you know, nothing personal, but we're going to take all of your responses. We're just trying to find a solution here. No one is on one side of the other, we just want a solution. So if you have some good responses that are constructive, we will take them. OK.
Here's what some of you are saying. Kadergueye says, "Definitely, assault weapons should be banned from public use. Five fatal shootings this month. What's next? People are going nuts."
Jaredmbennett said, "Thousands die a year from handguns. Maybe at most, 50 with assault weapons. Don't punish everyone because of a few nut jobs."
JuWolf43 says, "Yes, they should be banned. We are the laughing stock of the world, allowing these types of massacre. U.S. gun laws don't make sense."
Cairoglyphics says, "Banned? I don't know, maybe we don't ban guns, we ban people instead."
Twitter, Facebook, MySpace, ireport.com. I'll be checking it while we're on right now, because I'm going to get to this next group. Hello, everyone. I'm Don Lemon. Thanks for joining us here in the CNN NEWSROOM.
I want to expand our discussion on gun violence and what if anything can be done about it. These are my guests tonight. Columnist and writer David Sirota. Syndicated columnist Michelangelo Signorelli. And chairman of the Republican Party of Florida, Jim Greer.
Thank you all for joining us this evening. Let's have a very good discussion about this and hopefully we can make a decision, change some folks' minds from one way or the other, or to keep people from being one way this way all the way that way and we can maybe can meet in the middle. Fair enough?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sounds great.
LEMON: Jim, I'm going to start with you. Because as I was talking to the former FBI agent there, and every time we do something on gun control, it always boils down when it comes to the e-mail we get as a response. It's a conservative issue or it's a liberal issue. Liberals want to ban guns and take away my rights. Conservatives say, this is my right. But no one has the right to terrorize and kill people. And you heard the FBI agent say, people are being killed. Not conservatives or liberals.
JIM GREER, CHAIRMAN, REPUBLICAN PARTY OF FLORIDA: Well, absolutely. I really don't think it's a conservative/liberal issue. I'm a strong supporter of the Second Amendment, the Republican Party is a strong supporter of the Second Amendment, but we've got to find a solution to the issues where dangerous criminals are getting guns and they're hurting and killing people. I don't look to Europe to tell us how we should solve this crisis. I think we need to make sure that we have very thorough background checks, that we have very extensive gun laws.
LEMON: OK, hang on. Why not look to Europe? Because -- and I'm going to get your response. I'm going to get you guys in here. Because when you look at gun violence in Europe, below the U.S., less guns than the U.S. They have problems too. They've had several of these mass killings. I think David Sirota said nine in the past, what, 10 years?
DAVID SIROTA, COLUMNIST: Eleven in the past ...
LEMON: Eleven in the past 10 years. I just reeled off five or six in the past month. They've got to be doing something right?
GREER: Well, I can tell you one thing, when you travel to Europe, I was in Paris recently, and you look on the corner and the police are carrying Uzis and machine guns on every other corner. When we talk about Europe and how they're enforcing gun laws, they have a different relationship with their citizens. They have armed police officers with assault rifles on every corner, on every street.
So there's not a lot of people doing a lot shooting right then because they'd get shot a lot quicker because of their approach to law enforcement.
LEMON: And Michael, but in some places in Europe, and I've been there, the police officers don't even carry guns and you see very little violence.
MICHELANGELO SIGNORILE, COLUMNIST: That's absolutely true. Look, the problem is the laws and the restrictions are very, very lax. And we now have assault weapons available in this country. We know that's the problem, as well, with Mexico and the drug gangs. We know that people have access to guns who shouldn't have guns. Certainly, the Virginia Tech killer. His mental stability wasn't checked.
And we have right now a real paranoia on the right that is whipping people up. We have Representative Michele Bachmann. I'd like Mr. Greer to address this, a member of his party, saying our opposition needs to be armed and dangerous. We have 1.2 million background checks more in the last four-month period, because the right has been whipped up into thinking Barack Obama's going to take away their Second Amendment rights, and that's not true. We're talking about restrictions, not taking away all the guns.
LEMON: I want to let David Sirota get in on this. Because, David, you were saying, that's not necessarily true. I think you may agree with Mr. Greer here to some point, at least. Because you're saying Europe has the same problem as us.
DAVID SIROTA, COLUMNIST: It's a mix here. This is a mix. I mean, I think our gun laws, the end of the assault weapons ban has been a very bad thing for our country. But I think simply saying that it's a problem only of our laws is not really getting to where the problem is. I used to live in Montana. It's got a very high prevalence of people owning guns and got a very, very low amount of gun violence.
So the amount of guns and the access to guns is only one part of this issue. There's the whole other issue of mental health, of people feeling alienated. I mean, we're a country that's under a severe amount of stress right now, and that is going to create a whole lot of problems. And I think one of those problems is this kind of thing that we're seeing. So it's a bunch of different issues. And if we're going to address it, we can't just say, well, it's gun laws or it's not gun laws, or -- it's a bunch of different things.
GREER: I agree with that. I think that's fairly reasonable.
LEMON: I'm looking country by country and I'm just saying, we have probably the worst problem than anyone else. And it's just the truth. If you look at the statistics. Japan, registration of firearms, yes. Singapore, yes. UK, yes. Netherlands, yes. Spain, yes. Germany, yes. Italy, yes. Israel, yes. Australia, yes. Canada, all guns by 2003, which will be a yes. Obviously, this is older, this is from 2002. France, yes, except sporting rifles. Finland, yes. USA, handguns in some states. Licensing of gun owners, in some states. Everybody else, yes. What are we not doing?
GREER: Don, you said registration. I mean, we have ...
LEMON: Well, it's registration and licensing.
GREER: We need to have strong enforcement of gun laws, thorough background checks, but our founding fathers were very clear, the citizens of this country should have the right to bear arms to ensure that they maintain a democratic society.
LEMON: All right. I agree ...
SIGNORILE: Don, you just made all the sense in the world with the list. It makes complete sense. We have the most lax gun laws in the developed world and we have the most violence. It's that simple. And the Second Amendment was not about people having assault weapons and being able to go out and shoot up a bunch of people. It has been distorted. We need the laws.
LEMON: Mr. Greer, I'm going to give you the last word on this.
GREER: Sure, we need laws. I believe we should have very stringent laws on guns and make sure that we do background checks on people that possess them and put people in jail that violate those gun laws, but we should not ban guns in this country. We should protect the Second Amendment to ensure that our government is not the only ones with guns.
LEMON: OK. Stand by, Mr. Greer. I'm getting responses from viewers as well. I want to talk to you guys more about the president's in Europe. We're going to talk more issues than just gun control. This came up because of the shootings we've had in the last couple of days. More from our panel now, including the big focus on the president's European trip, the economy, drugs, and gay marriage.
We're going to talk all of it. Can we learn anything from Europe.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: During his visit to France this week, President Barack Obama spoke about the need to have an overhaul of our international financial system. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, U.S. PRESIDENT: All of us are moving aggressively to restore growth in lending. All of us have agreed for the most substantial overhaul of our international financial system in a generation. No one is exempt. No more will the world's financial players be able to make risky bets at the expense of ordinary people. Those days are over. We are ushering a new era of responsibility.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: All right. So welcome back, everyone. Columnist and writer David Sirota, hello sir, syndicated columnist Michelangelo Signoreli, and chairman of the Republican Party in Florida, Jim Greer. Thank you very much. Jim, I got to start with you again. Do you think the president is making progress here?
GREER: As far as the economy?
LEMON: Yeah.
GREER: Yeah. Here's my position. I think President Obama first of all has quieted down Nancy Pelosi a little bit. I think he's told him down there stop sending me some of this stuff, let's focus on the economy. And I do think in some areas he has made the public feel much better. A nation that is in challenging times has to have a leader that first shows he can lead and that he can make it better.
LEMON: But what about in the world? We're talking about his visit to Europe. The question last weekend was would he get the reception he got when he was there in July, 300,000 people, would he be able to sell his stimulus to Europeans and the world, are people going to buy in to what we're doing here to help the economy? That's what we're talking about.
GREER: Yeah, he's gotten big crowds everywhere he's gone. I think it is important for our country that when Air Force One lands in any nation, if that nation is receptive, there is a foundation for dialogue. But the person who gets off Air Force One has to be someone who is committed to the principles and values of our nation, and he can't be concerned every day with what Europe thinks and what the Europeans view America as.
LEMON: Talk to me -- tell me what that means. He has to be concerned with us and not what Europeans think. Tell me more about that. What do you mean?
GREER: As he governs our nation he needs to look at what Americans think and what our principles and values are. But I do believe that it is good that we have a fresh face over there, that we have people that are willing to sit down and talk to us.
LEMON: Hang on. When I hear that -- I heard the president in that sound bite when he talked about bringing the world economy together. I said you know what? We're going to hear he's waving the white flag of surrender, this is going to be fascism, this is going to be communism, this is going to be socialism, this is going to be communism. And not five minutes after he gave that speech, that's what people were saying. Michael?
SIGNORILE: Well again, it takes us back to the gun discussion. A frenzy on the right, a paranoia from some members of Congress, Republicans, as well as Fox News, Glenn Beck. First it was socialism, then it's fascism. I don't think these people know what that really means, what any of it means. We are doing what we have historically done in this country to solve our economic crises. We are having the government get involved. That is an important thing.
LEMON: I've got to get David Sirota in here. David, what do you think? Are we leaning towards this world economy? And if we are, should people necessarily be afraid of that?
SIROTA: Well, what's fascinating is is that the Europeans in many ways want out in this. I think that's not actually a bad thing. We had a couple of European leaders who have been pushing the Obama administration to regulate, embrace better regulation of our financial system. What you saw out of the G-20 was a unified front for more financial regulation. Where Obama I think came up a little bit short was in pushing countries like France and Germany to pass their own kind of stimulus. And I think that's going to be a continued challenge.
LEMON: I want to talk to you guys about arrogance, real quickly, if we can go through these very quickly because I don't have a lot of time. We were talking about since Iowa the same-sex marriage law was passed there. Europe and many places gay people can get married, it is not a big deal. Why is it such an issue here? An again, what can we learn from Europe on that front?
Go ahead, Michael.
SIGNORILE: Well, what we have here is a very different governmental structure.
LEMON: Got to make it quick for me.
SIGNORILE: We have states rather than the federal government deciding these things. In Europe the five countries that have legalized marriage, the federal government did it with a federal issue. We're doing it state by state and we're winning now. We have three states that have passed laws protecting gays and lesbians in marriage.
LEMON: Jim, can you give me just a couple seconds on that?
GREER: Absolutely. I'm adamantly opposed to gay marriage. I do think there is some process for civil unions but our nation's made up of a foundation, marriage is one of them, a man and a woman, and we should not support gay marriages in this nation.
LEMON: You know, Mr. Sirota ...
SIGNORILE: Well, we are, and that is the losing end of this. You will be on the side of the people who are losing that discussion.
LEMON: Let's talk about marijuana. Hang on. That's going to have to be the last word on that. Let's talk about the decriminalization of marijuana. Again we're doing this only because the president is there and we're wondering is there something we can learn.
And I'm sure they can certainly learn some things from us, but since we're there and we're learning about them, what can we learn when it comes to the decriminalization of marijuana, and in some places the legalization of marijuana? Because you have a number of European countries where it is decriminalized and you don't have people going to jail for petty crimes an the crimes aren't as bad as here. David?
SIROTA: Well, what we can learn is that Portugal has basically legalized drugs and there is other places in Europe that have lesser punishment for drug crimes and the usage of drugs is lower in those countries. Those countries are more tolerant, there's less drug crime and there is less of an incarceration rate. What you've seen is Hillary Clinton and Senator Jim Webb this week say that we should look at that issue and look at how to reform our criminal justice system from countries that have successfully done that in places like Europe.
LEMON: Hey, thank you guys. I wanted to get to the arrogance sound bite that's drawing so much attention. Maybe we can find some time but we've got to run because it is causing a whole lot of controversy, the Europeans saying you Americans, the Americans going, you Europeans.
GREER: We need to stop that. We really need to stop that and focus on building a foundation of cooperation while making sure that we're representing America's interests at all times.
LEMON: Thank you all. We're back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: More of our conversation with our panel tonight at 10:00. There they are. They're waiting. I'm Don Lemon here at the CNN Center. See you back here at 10:00 p.m. Eastern with our panel. CNN SPECIAL INVESTIGATION, "Eyewitness to Murder: the King Assassination Begins Right Now."
