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How America Tortured; President Obama Arrives at Summit of the Americas; Assessing the "Tea Parties"; Texas Secession Talk; Too Wide to Ride
Aired April 17, 2009 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This government does not torture people.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Now, for the first time, you get to decide for yourself. Released, the first detailed government report showing what the Bush administration said was OK to do to people to try and get them to talk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Texans know how to run Texas!
SANCHEZ: Is the governor of Texas serious about secession? What happened to America first? We ask.
The president goes south of Texas to meet with Latin America's leaders. And I travel south of the border to show you how illegal immigrants are shackled, shipped out, kicked out, and why.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm lost.
SANCHEZ (on screen): you're lost?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I'm lost.
SANCHEZ (voice-over): Their full story, from takeoff to landing and beyond.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've got a government that's out of control.
SANCHEZ: They had something to say and got lots of media attention. But how does it compare with past protests?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody kind of got scared. The market got depleted.
SANCHEZ: The gun and ammo buy-up continues, belying the facts. One store even runs out.
And the controversy over big butts continues. Too big to fly? Is this right, wrong?
You tell us, as this national conversation begins right now.
(END VIDEOTAPE) SANCHEZ: And hello again, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez. And we welcome you to the show that crosses into the next generation of news.
Through social media, we talk with you, not just at you. Here we go, two stories developing during this hour. And you're going to see them both unfold right here.
First, the president of the United States arrives in Trinidad and Tobago to meet with leaders from throughout Latin America. That will be important.
And, possibly at the same time that that is happening, yes, we're going to have a twofer for you, Captain Richard Phillips, the guy who offered up his own live to save his crew, arrives back in the United States to a hero's welcome, well-deserved, by the way. I don't think there's any no doubt about that one.
We're going to be all over these stories.
Now, this, though, first -- I want you to listen to something. This is President Bush making an absolute denial for you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This government does not torture people. This government does not torture people. This government does not torture people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: OK. We heard it. Is that true, though, in light of this?
I want you to decide. These are newly released memos that will, for the first time, let you see for yourself what have been some of the Bush administration's most clearly guarded secrets, the methods that they approved of to make suspects talk.
Of course, the key word here still is suspects. You will see in this report the approval of sleep deprivation, of simulated drownings, the use of small, dark spaces, where insects could be tossed in, harried phone calls from secret prisons to government lawyers in Washington, doctors on scene to determine what a prisoner's breaking point actually was right there at the time.
Here's Tom Foreman.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As the war on terror raged in the years following 9/11, the new documents paint a graphic picture of what was happening to some suspected terrorists in American hands, suspects like Abu Zubaydah, identified by the CIA as a top al Qaeda operative.
In memos to the spy agency, the Justice Department approved shackling so-called high-value suspects, forcing them to stand, and keeping them from sleeping for up to 11 days, making them assume stress positions, such as standing with only their hands touching a distant wall, or kneeling while being forced to bend sharply backward, locking them in a tiny, cramped space for up to two hours at a time.
For Zubaydah, one memo even OKed throwing in an insect of which he was to be believed deathly afraid, though that step was not taken, and simulated drowning through the process known as water-boarding.
(on camera): The memos make it plain that only some detainees faced these extreme measures. And, even then, some techniques were not taken to the approved limit. Furthermore, the Justice Department repeatedly warned that physical injury was forbidden, as well as anything that produced prolonged psychological stress or lasting effects.
(voice-over): The memos stress that thousands of American soldiers have endured these techniques in training, and that they do not constitute torture.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This government does not torture people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: Still, the list goes on -- also approved, slapping suspects in the face or stomach to startle and humiliate, dousing prisoners repeatedly with water, and forced nudity in front of both male and female interrogators, especially if that's taboo in the prisoner's culture.
The American Civil Liberties Union says, all this is torture. And just as it fought for the release of these papers, the group now wants something more.
AMRIT SINGH, ATTORNEY, AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION: Torture is illegal. It is immoral, and it is essential that individuals who conducted torture be held accountable.
FOREMAN: Not likely, the Obama administration says, but the president is making it just as clear that such interrogation techniques are now forbidden.
Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: This is an important discussion that you're about to hear.
Joining us now is "Newsweek" investigative correspondent Mark Hosenball, who was among, by the way, some of the -- one of the first reporters many years ago to detail how suspects were being rounded up after 9/11. Mark, thanks so much for being with us.
MARK HOSENBALL, "NEWSWEEK": Thank you.
SANCHEZ: I recall that you and I had conversations. This is late 2001, the beginning of 2002. I'm not sure if you remember.
And it was a conversation about people who at the time were being rounded up in Afghanistan. You had filed a series of reports about this. And many of them, you, I remember writing, were being turned in by rivals.
Now, I ask this, because many Americans are going to see this report and are they going to say, OK, so what? So, a bunch of terrorists were being tortured. These are people that wanted to kill us. So what, they might ask.
Question to you: Is it possible that some of those people who may have been, in parentheses, tortured, were not terrorists at all?
HOSENBALL: I think it is possible.
I mean, certainly, it's been established, I believe, that some of the people that were taken from Afghanistan after the American, I guess you could call it operation -- or invasion there who were taken and imprisoned and eventually made their way to Guantanamo, that some of those people probably were not terrorists.
There's an argument out there that Abu Zubaydah, one of the three people who I believe was water-boarded, and the person to whom one of these memos pertained, the 2002 memo, there's an argument that he wasn't really quite the terrorist mastermind that they thought he was.
The whole memo and the whole argument for, you know, using these techniques on him, if you read the memo, is that this guy was the highest -- one of the highest-ranking al Qaeda fixers and he knew everything that was going on and he knew where all the al Qaeda bigwigs were and he knew about all these plots that were coming down the road.
Well, there's some evidence he is -- he was an al Qaeda fixer who helped people move in and out of Afghanistan and in and out of Pakistan, but whether he was really a terrorist mastermind, there's a question over there.
So, even one of these major suspects that they treated very, very badly -- they wanted to put a bug in his cage, although they never did that, they say, anyway -- even that guy maybe wasn't quite what they billed him up to be. But it is pretty clear that they believed at the time that he was a big guy.
SANCHEZ: That's important for Americans to understand that distinction between somebody who is a terrorist and is threatening to destroy the United States or kill Americans and somebody who somebody may have said for convenience that was a terrorist because he wanted to get rid of a rival. Now, here's another part of this story that I think is extremely important. Many Americans were led to believe that much of this at the time, this whole business that we saw, places like Abu Ghraib, was being carried out by underlings, some bored sergeant or some soldier in some prison who just went too far.
This report dispels that argument, doesn't it?
HOSENBALL: Well, not exactly.
What the report says that is that, at a high legal of the CIA, i.e., the level of the chief lawyer, the deputy chief lawyer, John Rizzo, they went to the Justice Department, in fact, on more than one occasion, and said, at least according to Justice Department memos, we want to do these things to do this prisoner to get them to talk, and -- or these prisoners, and what do you think of that?
And then the Justice Department says to the high-level CIA officer, OK, you can do this, this, this, and this. Now, whether it was actually high-level officers of that rank who were actually doing the work, I don't believe so.
I'm sure Mr. Rizzo himself had nothing to do with that. He's just a lawyer. And I'm not sure that the real...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But that's what I'm saying.
(CROSSTALK)
HOSENBALL: Yes. Yes. Yes.
SANCHEZ: But, Mark, that's the point I'm making. It wasn't some guy freelancing in some prison in Abu Ghraib or wherever these secret prisons may be. There were actually legal documents being signed and delivered by lawyers at the White House or around the White House, right...
HOSENBALL: Oh, yes.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: saying, go ahead, you can do this; it's cool.
HOSENBALL: Around the Justice Department, which apparently was working in partnership with the White House, that's right.
I mean, the Justice Department is the highest legal authority, supposedly, in the United States government. And the Justice Department is telling the CIA, you could do this, this, and this. And the CIA is basically saying to the Justice Department, we're not going to do any of this stuff unless you say it's OK.
And the Justice Department is saying, go ahead, this is OK. And CIA officials have certainly said to me in the past, you know, it was the Justice Department telling us to do this. Who else in the government could tell you to do this?
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Mark Hosenball, one of the best correspondents over at "Newsweek," keep doing it, man. I will keep reading your stuff.
HOSENBALL: Thank you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: If it was easier to get in, would you go back?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Probably.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Con Air -- taking hardened criminals, in this case, illegal immigrants, back to Central America, kicking them out, and we will take you along for the ride.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is no fair tax system in the United States.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: They have something to say, and they definitely were heard. But how do their numbers compare with past protests? And did past protests get the similar publicity? We're going to examine that.
Also, I got a lot of heat for showing that gun sales were way up, according to an FBI report, mind you, because of, in many cases, unsubstantiated fears.
Well, today, part two, you will see it right here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: And there you see the pictures. This is about, oh, 30, 40 seconds ago.
It's Air Force One and the president of the United States arriving in Trinidad and Tobago. He is there for the Summit of the Americas. Summit of the Americas, as you know, is a very important meeting that takes place every year, where all the different leaders from all throughout Latin America get together.
We have been watching these planes arrive all day. Just before the president arrived, we actually saw the president of Brazil arriving, Lula da Silva, who obviously always has something to say at all of these reunions.
OK, this is a live picture that you're looking at now. These are live -- This is a live feed that we're taking in as the president arrives there. He will be -- we don't know, actually, if he's going to be making some statements.
We do know that within about, oh, 20 minutes or so, there will be some kind of -- some kind of gathering. And, oftentimes, for security reasons, as we realized yesterday, when he arrived in Mexico, they don't tell us exactly what is going to be discussed.
No doubt, though, the thorny issue of immigration will be discussed amongst some of these presidents, because it really touches all borders, not just here in the United States, but even in -- among some other Central American countries, for example.
That is why I want you to watch this that I am about to show you, as we wait for the president to arrive. My producer Michael Heard and I traveled on a plane affectionately called Con Air last year.
This is the U.S. government's effort to try and remove and repatriate by force -- by force -- illegal immigrants from the United States. Now, some of these guys are hardened criminals. This is a program that continues to this day.
But there's more to this story than really meets the eye. That's why I want you to watch it through and through, and then we will talk about it on Twitter and MySpace and Facebook on the backside.
Roll it, Roger.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ (voice-over): Shackles scrape against the tarmac at Williams International Airport in Mesa, Arizona. These are the first close-up images of the U.S. government's new initiative to get rid of undocumented immigrants not within months or years anymore, but rather, within days. From this airport alone, three full flights now leave each week bound for Central America.
(on camera): It's now 7:30 in the morning. We're about a half hour from wheels up on this MD-83 that's going to literally remove 110 immigrants from the United States.
(voice-over): On board, one of the men who handles the new program for the Bush administration.
GARY MEADE, ICE ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: It's our hope that these people, when they get back, will explain that there is no safe haven anymore, that when people are apprehended, they are processed quickly and they're returned quickly.
SANCHEZ: But is the message getting through? On board we find immigrants separated by two classifications -- criminal aliens whose crimes range from heroin smuggling, murder and petty offenses, to those whose only crime is being in the country illegally. An hour into the flight we find Marlon Vargas a 23-year-old with a boyish grin who says he came to the U.S. because he was hungry.
(on camera): Is this the first time you tried to come to the United States?
MARLON VARGAS, UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANT: No.
SANCHEZ: No? How many times?
VARGAS: Seven times.
SANCHEZ: Seven times?
(voice-over): Then there's Jose Membrero (ph), a criminal alien who admits to a rap sheet that dates back to 1991, with crimes that include selling drugs, domestic violence, parole violations, and finally a DUI arrest that's now getting him deported. Although not a citizen, Membrero was in the U.S. legally. He's lived in Colorado for 19 years and speaks English with hardly a trace of a Spanish accent.
(on camera): You feel like you blew it?
JOSE MEMBRERO, IMMIGRANT: Yes.
SANCHEZ (voice-over): It's now about noon. And the flight dubbed Con-Air, is maneuvering the tricky approach through the mountains into the capital city of Tegucigalpa.
Once on the ground, their welcomed by Honduran immigration officials, using the plane's P. A. to tell them they're happy to have them back.
At the refugee return and welcome center, Membrero -- remember he's the one with the long rap sheet -- clears immigration and Interpol almost immediately.
However, Marlon Vargas has a problem. Honduran officials spot his tattoos and question him about gang activity.
(on camera): MS-13 is a very dangerous gang.
SANCHEZ (voice-over): Here as well, says the police official, who decides Vargas' tattoo is not a gang logo after all. He is free to go, as is Membrero, who tells us he won't return to the U.S. because now, as a deported ex-con, he would face a federal sentence of 20 years if caught. However, Honduras is a country he hardly knows.
MEMBRERO: Lost.
(on camera): You're lost?
MEMBRERO: Yes, I'm lost.
SANCHEZ (on camera): You're lost?
MEMBRERO: Yes, I'm lost.
SANCHEZ (voice-over): Vargas knows where he's going. It's now 3:00 p.m., and we follow him back to his village, a two-hour ride through the Honduran countryside. Santa Rosa is poor, but the greeting he gets from his mom is rich.
One look inside Vargas' home and you immediately understand why half the boys here have left for America, leaving behind fathers like Vargas' dad.
(on camera): Does it bother you when he leaves?
(voice-over): "I need him," says Tomas Vargas, who tells me he only makes $3 a day, shows me his empty cupboards, the holes in his roof and his next meal, and every meal -- beans and corn.
(on camera): To say that life is hard here in Santa Rosa would be an understatement. For running water, for example, you have to go outside. That's if it works.
(voice-over): Like this squeaky faucet, everyone seems to agree, U.S. immigration policy is in disrepair. Will this newest initiative fix it? That's up to Marlon Vargas and tens of thousands like him.
(on camera): If it was easier to get in, would you go back?
VARGAS: Probably.
SANCHEZ: Yes?
VARGAS: Yes.
SANCHEZ: But they're making it harder now?
VARGAS: It's harder now.
SANCHEZ: Vargas plans instead, to join the Honduran military. But his is just one story, a snapshot of one family, one village, where America's immigration dilemma begins.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: And as we watch that story, let's go now to the very picture that we have been seeing out of Trinidad and Tobago. It's the president of the United States arriving to meet with leaders who deal with that very subject that you were just seeing in that report that I filed for you, the cross-border differences, when it comes to immigration and emigration, different people going to different parts of the world and the problems that it creates, also, the root causes of this.
And NAFTA, is it something that's actually helping the situation or not? We're going to be talking all that up, as we watch the president's motorcade. There is the motorcade that will take the president to his next venue, again, the meetings there in Trinidad and Tobago, the Summit of the Americas, where all the leaders from all different parts of Latin America meet once a year to discuss these issues.
You can expect that we are going to be all over this as it happens.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Getting together and wanting to give a voice that we want to return to our roots of the Constitution and stop big government.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: They came. They certainly had something to say. They spoke, said their piece. But how many actually showed up? Is the left playing it down? And is the right exaggerating? We will compare numbers for you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The founding fathers understood something. They understood that one size fits all doesn't work. It sure doesn't work in a country as big as America. And it darn sure doesn't work in Texas.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Imagine if Texas were no longer part of the United States. Is that what Governor Perry really wants? Calling Wayne Slater. He's going to be joining me here to talk about that in just a little bit.
And then why are some Americans buying up all the ammo that they possibly can get their hands on? In one Wal-Mart, somebody walked in and actually took all of the ammo out of the store. Others are complaining they are not going to let it happen again. Is the fear that is causing that substantiated or not?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: All right. And we have got some pictures of the president of the United States.
It looks to me -- I'm looking close. My monitor maybe is a little e smaller than yours at home. There you go. Yes, the ladder's there. That means that the president will be coming downstairs any moment now. He usually gets a thumbs-up after Secret Service says it's OK to do so.
First, they have to do a quick sweep to make sure there's no problems or no foreseeable problems. And then we understand the president may be making some remarks.
We're not exactly sure when he's going to make the remarks. And, again, for security reasons, we probably are not told. But we do know, or we're getting word now that the president will be making some kind of remarks.
And here's what's interesting. Since he is in a Caribbean island, not far from another Caribbean island which has been a constant source of problems for the United States -- Cuba is the country I'm referring to -- for, what, half-a-century now, we understand the president is going to make comments about Cuba in particular.
And, by the way, Cuba is going to be a subject that will be brought up, has been in the past, and -- and will be brought up again and again by some of the leaders here. Some of them, by the way, and this -- oh, there we go.
There, we get the president of the United States coming down the stairs now. You know what is interesting as we talk about this? Cuba, Raul Castro, has not been invited to the summit this year. Fidel Castro had been invited and did show up in the past.
But oftentimes, there were real problems between the U.S. president and the Cuban president, as you might imagine. This year, there are some leftist leaders in Latin America, Lula da Silva in Brazil, Gutierrez in Ecuador, Kirchner, perhaps, to some extent, in Argentina, who have argued on behalf that this relationship should be fostered now, argued on behalf of the -- of the Cuban government.
We expect to hear some of that as well from other leaders. But what will Barack Obama say? We see him now there. He is leading -- he is meeting with some of the guard there in Trinidad and Tobago.
I have -- as a correspondent, I can tell you that I have covered this summit many, many times, both working at the network and at the locals in South Florida. It's been held in Florida, in Coral Gables, in the past. It's always been considered a very important event.
Can't see exactly who the president is meeting with right there. Let me see -- look at my monitor and see if I recognize him. I don't. I believe he may be one of the dignitaries from Trinidad and Tobago, which also, by the way, has its own group of countries that meets from time to time.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
SANCHEZ: There we hear the ovation. And it sounds like the music is about to play. Is he with Michelle? Is he with the first lady? I couldn't tell. No, he's not, I'm being told now.
The president did not travel with the first lady on this trip. We didn't see her yesterday on the Mexico trip. He's getting into his limousine now. And we will continue to follow it to determine what exactly it is that the president is going to be doing next.
We do have his itinerary. We will be taking you through it as we can.
Let's try and sneak a quick break here, so we will have time -- we will be taking a quick break after the president drives off, just to make sure that everything is, as they say, cool there in Trinidad and Tobago.
And, by the way, this is one of the coolest places in the world. If you ever want to go to one really great party, Carnival in Trinidad and Tobago is, at least among the Trinidadians there, said to be the best in the world. And it very well probably is.
The president now -- and we do see some movement. It looks like he's going to be heading out. And he will probably be -- probably be leaving the screen in just a little while. We do expect that the president will meet with some of the South American leaders.
Of course, one of the big questions always now that Castro really is out of the picture and there's another Latin America president who has kind of taken his place, Hugo Chavez, and one wonders what -- what the encounter is going to be like when this president of the United States meets the president of Venezuela.
We're going to be all over this. Let's try and sneak in a break now, so we have time to talk about it on the back end and also talk about what is going on with some of the other stories that we're going to have for you today.
A man walks into a store and buys up all the ammo. We investigate whether fear is driving the gun buy-ups, a follow-up from a controversial story that we first brought you last week.
How thin do you have to be before an airline says that you have to get off the plane or pay more because your butt's too big?
And then -- why are these guys laughing? There were TEA Parties all over the nation this week, but how loud were the messages? And how many people were there? One side says this. The other side says that. We have got the real skinny.
Speaking about, we will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Boy, we have got one developing story being followed by another now.
As we told you earlier in the newscast, there's a possibility that we might have both of these stories actually happening at the same time. This is Captain Phillips, who is going to be arriving in Burlington, Vermont.
As I said earlier in the newscast -- and I don't think any of you would disagree with me -- this guy is a verifiable hero, all right? I mean, when you give your life, or attempt to, or risk your life, as he certainly did, to save your crew, as he did, saying, Leave them alone, take me -- which is what he did -- you deserve a hero's welcome. And that's apparently what he's going to be getting there in Burlington, Vermont very soon. Again, Captain Richard Phillips due to arrive there soon and we are going to have that for you as it happens. Expect it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If it was up to me, we'd fire every last one of them in Congress, the U.S. Congress and the Senate. They all need to go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is no fair tax system in the United States.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The average age is probably over 50 here today.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Those people in Washington work for us. But the only politician that I've heard that said this and lives up to it is Sarah Palin from Alaska.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Those tea parties have come and gone and a lot of protesters with a lot on their minds were heard, right?
Our question -- how many people actually showed up?
Just to be fair, one conservative network anchor predicted millions of people would be there.
Were there millions of people?
What we want to do now is, well, a little contrast and comparison here.
What are you looking at now?
Nope, not a tea party.
How does it compare, for example, to, say, the immigration rallies of 2006, where seas of people were marching through the streets, as you just saw?
All right. Well, that particular protest that we just showed you did have millions of people in it.
Next, then there was the out of Iraq protests year after year, city after city, both here and abroad. This is a shot from the nation's capital. This is September 24th, 2005. The police estimated there were 150,000 people in this one city alone.
Fast forward now to Wednesday, tea party day. About 1,000 people are gathered there in Washington -- 1,000. Now, let's go to Boston. Five hundred people -- some 500 people in Boston, as we were all reminded, the site of the very first tea party. Lafayette, Indiana -- judge for yourself. It looks like a few hundred people there.
So was there millions of people, as one anchor suggested there would be, on the air?
We do believe we have found the answer. From New York now, here is a statistical analyst, Nate Silver. He's one of the nation's premier numbers crunchers. He's done sports. He's done politics. His Web site is called FiveThirtyEight.com. Nate, thanks for being with us.
NATE SILVER, STATISTICAL ANALYST: Yes, thanks, Rick.
SANCHEZ: All right. You don't have a -- you don't have a you don't have a dog in this fight, right?
SILVER: No. I mean, you know, I think it's interesting what's happening. I tend to vote Democratic, but we're trying to be objective here.
What I did is look at accounts from local newspapers and TV stations all across the country, not people who are there. It's hard to estimate crowds when you're in one. Not people who organized them, not partisans on the left and the right. Just looked at newspapers and stuff and just add them all up.
SANCHEZ: And drum roll, please. The answer is -- how many people went or attended, I guess I should say, not exactly.
But how many people would you, had you gathered your information, would tell you attended these tea parties?
SILVER: Safely, at least 300,000. I think there are some we haven't found numbers for still, so probably maybe 350,000, 400,000 nationwide is the best estimate, I think.
SANCHEZ: Three hundred thousand. Probably, I mean, let's, you know, give or take a little.
SILVER: Conservatively. Yes. Give or take -- on the high side, maybe another 100,000 or so.
SANCHEZ: So it could have been 400,000?
SILVER: It wouldn't surprise me.
SANCHEZ: What made you do this?
I mean nobody hired you to do this, right?
You're just a statistician who decided you would put your statistician's expertise to work, right?
SILVER: Yes. We just try to find stuff that you can't really find good information about somewhere else. We did, during the election, the polling. And, you know, this time it was -- I thought it would take 10 minutes to look at these numbers on local Web sites. It wound up taking a day, basically. But there's no other kind of objective resource where you're look at police estimates and at estimates by reporters and not just what people say...
SANCHEZ: Yes... SILVER: ...where they'll exaggerate on both sides.
SANCHEZ: And this is a good thing. People should be out and let their voices be heard.
But what's interesting about this is, as you look at the numbers, and you had a -- you split them up. I mean you said how many were here, how many were there. There were places where had -- there were small places in Wasilla, Alaska, for example, and parts of Indiana, I believe, that had larger turnouts than big cities.
SILVER: Yes.
SANCHEZ: What does that say?
SILVER: It's really weird. And it's mostly a rural movement, right, so you have people who are interested in this stuff who are not in large cities. If you had the opposite kind of movement on the Democratic side, then you might have 100,000 here in New York, but you wouldn't have any in Wasilla, Alaska, necessarily.
So the highest numbers aren't very high. I think in Atlanta they had 15,000.
SANCHEZ: Fifteen thousand. Right. Right here.
SILVER: Which is not a bad number, but not -- you know, when you have 300,000 for one anti-war protest or one immigration protest in Chicago, Los Angeles and New York. But, on the other hand, they had people in maybe 600 different locations across the country, you know. New Bajur (ph), Louisiana, they had 5,000 people, which is near Shreveport. That is pretty impressive. It's a kind of a long tail, I guess. And with the social networking they've started to use, I think it gives them a good model for -- for building more of a kind of infrastructure going forward.
SANCHEZ: I think you've put it in perspective for us and we appreciate it.
We thank you, Nate Silver.
SILVER: Yes. Thanks, Rick.
SANCHEZ: All right.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We didn't like oppression then. We don't like oppression now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Why is the governor of Texas saying something that sounds so incredibly un-American?
Why is he suggesting seceding from the United States of America? Define fat -- United Airlines thinks that they have the answer when it comes to how big your butt can be so you should be allowed to fly or not fly. Seriously.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Man, we've got so much going on and we've got so little time to tell it in.
All right. First of all, that plane right there...
(SINGING): O Canada...
SANCHEZ: There you go. The prime minister of Canada, Stephen Harper, has just arrived in Trinidad and Tobago. And since I know that we have tons of people who are constantly on Twitter and MySpace and Facebook telling us that they are watching this show, we wanted to show you your prime minister arriving there at the Summit of the Americas.
Also, switch the picture if you can there, Rog. Let's show them what's going on in Burlington, Vermont. A true hero, an American hero is about to ready to arrive there -- the guy who was willing to tell the pirates take me, but save my crew.
This guy had intestinal fortitude, huh?
He's going to be arriving. You'll hear his welcome there. We're going to cover it here you here at CNN.
And then there's this -- can we still call the Cowboys America's team?
I mean the Dallas Cowboys -- say it ain't so, Texas Governor Rick Perry.
You're suggesting that perhaps America's team won't be America's team?
Wednesday at one of those tea parties, he stirred things up with a ringing call for states' rights. You see him right there. And then here's what he told a reporter: "When Texas came into the Union in 1845, one of the issues was that we would be able to leave if we decided to do that. My hope is that America, and Washington in particular, pays attention."
Perry went on: "If Washington continues to thumb their nose at the American people, who knows what may come of that?"
Joining us from now Austin, Wayne Slater, columnist for "The Dallas Morning News."
Wayne, what's going on, man?
WAYNE SLATER, SENIOR POLITICAL WRITER, "DALLAS MORNING NEWS": Well, first, if I could correct something... SANCHEZ: Yes.
SLATER: ...not what...
SANCHEZ: Correct away.
SLATER: Not what you said.
SANCHEZ: All right.
SLATER: ...but our fair governor, there is no provision -- there is no aspect, there was no agreement, there is no contract, there is nothing in any provision in 1845 that allows Texas to secede. The University of Texas A&M's Constitutional scholars say no.
SANCHEZ: Huh.
SLATER: John Cornyn, the senator, says no. Rick Perry's own social studies teachers from Paint Creek High says no.
SANCHEZ: Ha. So...
SLATER: So it isn't true.
SANCHEZ: Where did he get this, then?
SLATER: Well, this...
(LAUGHTER)
SLATER: This is not about seceding, Rick. You've worked in -- you've lived in Texas.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
SLATER: This isn't about seceding from the Union. This is about building a political base. This is about making a statement that I am very conservative and pitching to the strongest, most conservative wing of the Republican Party.
Rick Perry has a primary next year, as you know, against Kay Bailey Hutchison...
SANCHEZ: Yes.
SLATER: ...and he's emerging with states' rights and anti- abortion and...
SANCHEZ: Yes. Let me stop -- let me stop you for a minute.
SLATER: Yes.
SANCHEZ: You know, the words "states' rights" is -- is very George Wallace -- Wallace-ish. I don't know, a word I just made up. I mean you think of the -- of the real Southern Democrats back during the civil rights movement, is -- that's a very loaded word. Is -- is that problematic?
SLATER: I -- I think it is. And, you know, I stood there this week with Rick Perry the governor, Rick Perry, at the tea party in Austin.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
SLATER: And he chanted: "states' right, states' rights, states' rights." And I looked at the audience -- the group. It was a big turnout.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
SLATER: It was mostly white people, very conservative, many of them very solid, principle conservatives who are concerned about Washington.
But when you say states' rights, that phrase has a history -- our most recent history, freighted with an unsavory aspect. It was the thing that, as you say, George Wallace, Southern (INAUDIBLE)...
SANCHEZ: Racial overtones, my friend.
SLATER: It was all about segregation.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
SLATER: So it seems to be the kind of thing that would work against even a Republican in a state like Texas.
SANCHEZ: It may be a word that's a little too big for the britches in this case. And, well, we'll see. We'll continue to follow it. But it's interesting that you would point out to us that it has as much to do with Texas politics as to -- as has much to do with bravado...
SLATER: And, Rick...
SANCHEZ: ...or real secession.
SLATER: And, Rick, one other quick thing.
SANCHEZ: Yes, go ahead.
SLATER: Remember, Rick Perry, in talking about the ideas of secession, of states' rights, of conservatism, is emerging, they believe, as a potential counterpoint or a person -- a complement to Sarah Palin on the national scene.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
SLATER: That's part of this design.
SANCHEZ: It makes a lot of sense.
Hey, Wayne Slater, you're the best. Nobody knows Texas politics like you do, my friend.
SLATER: Great to be with you, Rick.
SANCHEZ: All right.
We'll do it again.
This one gives new meaning to the term large and in charge.
But should an airline charge more money for passengers who are big?
And how do you decide who fits?
And then, yes, you heard about Ashton Kutcher. He gets my congrats and my kudos, by the way. No, not for the million thing. That's shtick. I'll tell you why he deserves to be complimented.
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SANCHEZ: All right. Time to get your comments on the air. And, look, I guarantee you, even if we don't use them because our show gets too busy, I still read just about everything that you write to me, on Twitter especially.
Let's start with Twitter, if we can. James1981 says: "You don't say? A politician doing something to gain political status? No! LOL. Yes, right."
"Wow! A Texas governor racist when speaking of concessions? Wow! True, guys?"
"States' rights do not provide the privilege of overthrowing the federal government. Jail time for the Texas governor."
There's one.
And, finally: "If your butt needs two seats on an airplane, you should pay for two seats. Simple."
Speaking of that, how big is your butt?
(MUSIC)
SANCHEZ: Thanks, Rog.
I want to show you something.
Are you ready?
Take a look at this. It's a tape measure.
See it?
A tape measure right there. I got this right at -- no, actually, there it is right there, right to where that line is right there. I've got it set to 17 inches. I know you're wondering why. Well, just stay with me here. You got it -- there you go. Seventeen inches is the width of every economy seat in the United -- in a United Airlines Flight 737 -- or a 737 plane, I should say.
Oh, by the way, and a 747, as well.
Can I take this down now?
Do you want to get it?
I'll put it right here. There you go.
Seventeen inches.
Not that much, right?
Well, if you're wider than that, you may have a problem. That's the issue. And the controversy continues. And lots of people are talking about it.
Here's a great report I want you to watch.
It's from our affiliate W -- or, pardon me -- our affiliate, CLTV -- Chicagoland TV.
And the reporter is Gaynor Hall.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) I don't think you heard, but when I've sat by someone who has been very heavy, I didn't have any room and I couldn't even squeeze in.
GAYNOR HALL, CLTV CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): United got 700 complaints just like that last year.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why should I pay the same as someone's who's going to take up more than one seat?
So it doesn't seem fair.
HALL: So the airline changed its seating policy. Starting today, overweight travelers who can't put the armrest down and infringe on another seat could be booted from their flights. And they'll have to pay for a second seat on another flight. A United spokesperson says, "This will apply only after all other solutions are exhausted, meaning the flight is full and we're unable to re- accommodate our guest next to an empty seat that is not occupied by someone else."
Even so, some frequent travelers say the new policy is insensitive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't agree with it. I think it's unfair. I think it's a discriminatory act.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why fly if you're going to be treated that way -- treated poorly?
HALL: United says eight other U.S. airlines already have similar policies. On Southwest, severely overweight travelers have to purchase two tickets. But if their flight is not full, the airline will reimburse them for the second ticket. American Airlines say they handle each situation on a case by case basis, though they do charge travelers for two seats if there are no other options.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, wow! That would really be something for somebody overweight. But look at little skinny me, I wouldn't know.
DR. ROBERT KUSHNER, NORTHWESTERN MEMORIAL HOSPITAL: Currently, two out of three American adults are overweight or obese.
HALL: Obesity expert Dr. Robert Kushner says airline seats are small by today's standards, even for travelers considered to be normal size. And he says United's new seating policy will further embarrass people already struggling with weight.
KUSHNER: And, of course, now you add the burden of walking on an airline and having the shame and humiliation of being asked to potentially get off the flight. It's very, very difficult.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
SANCHEZ: That report, by the way, from Gaynor Hall of Chicagoland Television, as we mentioned.
Let's go to a quick tweet. This is interesting. We were talking a little while ago with Wayne Slater about what's going on in the State of Texas. This is interesting. This is from David and he's in Austin, Texas. He knows what's going on. He says: "The cure for Perry's crazy talk is named Kay." He's talking about Kay Bailey Hutchison and the fact that some people are thinking she's going to challenge him as the next governor of Texas. And he goes on to say: "And I'm not even a conservative."
There you go, David. I knew exactly what you were talking about, man.
All right. And then there's this. The president arriving in Trinidad and Tobago for us. He is all over it and so are we. We're anticipating that Captain Richard Phillips is going to be arriving in Burlington, Vermont, as well. We're watching both stories for you. And if it happens, when it happens, you'll see it right here. Stay with us. It's going to be fun.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSH WINSTON, ACCOUNTANT: It's a 1983 Itasca R.V. I'm going to convert this R.V. to run on alternative fuels, specifically, used vegetable oil.
If you're afraid of working on your own car, then I don't recommend this. But if you're a shade tree mechanic, that isn't difficult to do. The last piece of the vegetable oil fuel line that I'm attaching now. Well, let's see how close we are to starting this. Oh, almost.
You could miss one hose, the car won't start. Your exhaust smells like whatever you just cooked in the oil. My exhaust smells like overdone Chinese food.
Three billion gallons of vegetable oil gets produced by restaurants and school cafeterias in a year.
Wouldn't it be cool if we could use some of that to power some trucks and some buses?
I probably put in about 50 hours total on this -- even more satisfaction than completing a tax return.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: All right. Here we go.
We're going to let you know exactly what's going on with everything associated with the stories that are happening as we speak. And none seems to be as exciting, at least for me, after seeing what this guy did.
Let's just say I'm a fan, OK?
Richard Phillips -- he basically was willing to sacrifice himself for the sake of what is happening to -- what could have possibly happened to his crew. And he said, take me, leave them alone. And they did. And he's going to be arriving there in Vermont -- Burlington, Vermont -- any moment now to a hero's welcome -- as aforementioned, well-deserved.
And now, Ashton Kutcher. Interestingly enough, Ashton Kutcher is a winner.
And you know what?
Ashton Kutcher deserves to be a winner, because he has been making the point that we have been trying to make with this show for a long time, that participatory journalism -- where people get involved in conversations rather than me, as an anchor, just sitting there and giving you a speech that you are forced to listen to -- is the future, is the way people will be talking in the future.
He makes that point when he said this.
Let's listen to that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, COURTESY USTREAM.TV) ASHTON KUTCHER, ACTOR: There are a million people that need to be thanked for this. And I'm not one of them because I'm not following me, I'm following you. And I can't tell you how much I appreciate that you have put and invested your time and energy into making this stand and -- and making this sort of announcement to the world about the state of media.
We can and will create our media. We can and will edit our media. We can and will broadcast our media. We will censor our own media ourselves.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: You know, he makes a great point. And, you know, what's interesting about this thing -- I know that a lot of it was very celebrity-oriented and a lot of, oh, Ashton Kutcher is, you know, challenging CNN and Rick Sanchez and Larry King to get to a million. And kudos to him. He won. We got to the same number.
And, really, if you added up all our reporters, we would have been way over him.
But that's not the point. The point is he's making an important point. And we thank him for making it. And we hope that he's able to make it, as well, again on Larry King tomorrow.
But will he kind rub it in Larry's face?
Oh, is that tonight?
I misspoke. It's tonight. That's why you've got that little bug right there right on him. You see Ashton Kutcher tonight, 9:00 p.m. Larry King. Your feedback next -- what you say.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Chrisweber is watching. I wonder if it's the basketball player. And he says: "You and Ashton are the two people that got me on Twitter. It really has changed me. I'm using these avenues every day."
Good for you, Chris.
He's got a great lay-up, by the way.
Another guy with a great jump shot is Wolf Blitzer.
He's standing by right now in "THE SITUATION ROOM" -- Wolf, what you got?
WOLF BLITZER, HOST, "THE SITUATION ROOM": Thank you.
