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Family Found Dead in Maryland; American Journalist Convicted of Espionage in Iran
Aired April 18, 2009 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: We begin with breaking news.
Hello, everyone. I'm Don Lemon.
We're tracking a developing story out of Middleton, Maryland. An entire family found dead in their home. Thirty-four-year-old Christopher Wood apparently killed his wife and three young kids, and then, he killed himself. Detectives say Wood was found at the foot of the bed where his wife, Frances and 2-year-old daughter lay. The couple's 4-year-old and 5-year-old sons were both found dead in their beds.
The Frederick County sheriff's office says Mrs. Wood's father discovered the dead bodies after going to check on them this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CPL. JENNIFER BAILER, FREDERICK CO., MD. SHERIFF'S OFFICE: It appears that Mr. Wood killed the members of his family and then killed himself by an apparent self-inflicted gunshot wound. We have not determined the cause and manner of death of the other victims, but it is apparent that the victims sustained traumatic cut injuries.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Well, detectives say there is no previous history of domestic violence at the Wood family home. We're going to continue to follow this.
Sheriff Charles Jenkins, he's the sheriff of Maryland county -- of Frederick County, I should I say. He has been on the scene here and he is following the story. They wrapped up a press conference just a short time ago. We're awaiting him to get into a position so we can get some details about this case.
We have more details now on the two-state manhunt from a criminal police who say picks his victims on the Web. This is a different story that we're talking about. We're talking about Craigslist. A young woman has been murdered and two others robbed at gunpoint and all three advertised on Craigslist.
Twenty-six-year-old Julissa Brisman was shot to death last Tuesday night at a hotel in Boston. She had placed an ad on Craigslist offering massages. Well, investigators want to talk with the man seen on the surveillance photos that you see there. They were taken in the hotel lobby. And police in Warwick, Rhode Island, connected the dots between three cases after an exotic dancer was bound and held at gunpoint in a hotel that happened late Wednesday night. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF STEPHEN MCCARTNEY WARWICK, RHODE ISLAND POLICE: Preliminary investigations suggest that the assailant was responding to an advertisement that was posted by the victim on Craigslist. Warwick police detectives are actively investigating this case to include the possibility that this incident may be related to similar crimes occurring in the Boston area.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Well, detectives are now asking for help in identifying the tall, clean-cut, blond young man in the surveillance photos. If you know him, make sure you get in touch with police.
Now, we want to get back to our breaking news when we started this broadcast. We were talking about a family who was found dead and it appears to be a murder-suicide.
Sheriff Charles Jenkins has gotten into place now. We know he has been very busy sheriff. He's the Frederick County, Maryland sheriff.
Thank you so much for joining us. I know that it's a very busy time for you. We're hearing that there were possible notes found at the home. Do we know anything about a motive, Sheriff?
SHERIFF CHARLES JENKINS, FREDERICK COUNTY, MARYLAND: At this point we're still looking at all the evidence we've been able to recover. There were at least five separate notes found throughout the house. So right now, investigators are analyzing everything in those notes.
LEMON: So, we don't know about a motive. We don't know what was behind this, right?
JENKINS: There is some indication that at least one of the notes that there could have been some psychological issues with Mr. Woods.
LEMON: OK. So, I would imagine you're looking over those notes now, but some psychological issues but nothing -- you don't know what set him off is what I'm asking you?
JENKINS: Absolutely. Absolutely, we do not at this point. Again, this has been a tough investigation for everybody today and we're still sifting through evidence, the bodies have been removed at this point. And again, this is early.
LEMON: Yes, I would imagine the community there is in shock. I saw your press conference that you held not long ago, and you said, this is the most horrific thing you've ever seen in your years in law enforcement.
JENKINS: It is. And Frederick County, in my 20 years, this is the most horrific, tragic incident I have ever been involved with or seen myself.
LEMON: Where does this go to next, Sheriff?
JENKINS: Well, we'll continue the investigation. Of course, the bodies will go to the medical examiner's office where there will be an autopsy performed to determine the cause and manner of death. And this investigation will take quite a while to play out.
LEMON: Yes, I would imagine this. Sheriff Charles Jenkins, Frederick County sheriff, Frederick County, Maryland, we appreciate it. The sheriff has been very busy, just wrapped a press conference not long ago, and he is joining us now, got in place for us and we really appreciate it.
Good luck, if you have any more details, anything new, we invite you back, Sheriff.
JENKINS: Thank you, we certainly will.
LEMON: Thank you.
Let's turn now to a rapidly developing story overseas. A 31-year-old American journalist -- her name is Roxana Saberi -- has been convicted of spying for the United States in Iran and sentenced to eight years in prison. Her sentencing followed a trial that was closed to the public.
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton says she is deeply disappointed and a U.S. senator calls the conviction preposterous. President Obama's spokesman is also weighing in on this one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT GIBBS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I would echo the statement that Secretary Clinton put out on this. The president is deeply disappointed at this news. His thoughts and prayers are with her and her family. And I think we will continue to express the concerns that we have through the Swiss to the Iranian government, and make sure they underscore and understand our deep concern for these actions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Well, Iran's president is expected to make a statement at some point, calling on people to respect the court's decision. Now, I talked with CNN chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour on the phone tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): That's not going to go down well in the United States or elsewhere amongst people who want Roxana Saberi freed. What we do know is that she is able to appeal, her lawyer is. She was apparently denied bail, but has 20 days to appeal. And we also know that there are provisions in the Iranian government and the regulations and rules that permit pardons. (END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Christian Amanpour. Saberi's lawyer is vowing to appeal the verdict within the next 20 days, a 20-day period that they have. The young journalist stood trial without her lawyer even being present.
We have more international news to tell you about in the Summit of the Americas -- is what we're focusing on right now. President Barack Obama continues his stated effort to change the tone of U.S. relations with Latin America including Cuba. Well, Mr. Obama has also spoken with Venezuela's president, Hugo Chavez, known for his fiery anti- American rhetoric. Remember when he called President Bush "the devil"? Well, President Chavez presented President Obama with a book which not surprisingly, we're told, takes a very negative view of past U.S. policies in Latin America.
The book President Chavez gave to President Obama is called "Open Veins of Latin America: Five Centuries of the Pillage of a Continent." It is by a Uruguayan writer named Eduardo Galeano. And it's gone from obscurity to best seller overnight. In just hours, it zoomed to number 14 on Amazon.com's best seller list, and on Friday, it was ranked number 60,280, making its way to the top of the list very fast.
More flash floods to tell you about in Texas, and that's what Bonnie Schneider is keeping an eye on for us at the moment.
Bonnie, what do you have?
BONNIE SCHNEIDER, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Well, Don, we have reports of 16 inches of water, with water standing on I-45 and that is in Galveston, Texas. We're also getting reports of flooding as well, but it's really Galveston that seems to be getting the worst of the situation. We're tracking it here on the magic wall.
And I can show you that we're not only looking at heavy rain in and around Galveston, but flood warnings are posted for the entire Houston area. You can see here, we have the flood warnings posted for Houston as well as Beaumont, Texas. They also extend farther off to the west, into the parishes of southwest Louisiana.
Now, taking a closer look at this system, what we're looking at is a lot of rain working its way into Houston, still a lot more coming up from the south. That's why we still have the flash flood warnings in effect.
We have some video to show you of some of that standing water in Houston. Remember, there was about five inches of rain in a three- hour period, and so much more throughout the day today. So, people stuck even in SUVs. It only takes six inches of water to dislodge an SUV. So, you don't even want to try to attempt to pass any roads. A lot of people are still trying to do that, they probably got caught by surprise.
Well, we can give you the heads up that this entire storm system is working its way further off to the east. We're going to be seeing that with a tornado watch in effect for parts of areas into Louisiana, and we're also watching out for some very lengthy travel delays. Don, we have delays right now, four hours in and around the Houston area due to these severe thunderstorms.
LEMON: All right. Thank you, Bonnie. We'll keep an eye on that one.
SCHNEIDER: Sure.
LEMON: OK. The 2009 tea parties -- across the country, thousands of people hit the streets. But what was really going on behind the protests? What's the truth behind taxes and the tea parties?
Plus this ...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It cannot be argued that marriage between people of the same sex is un-American or threatens the rights of others.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. That man is a Republican. He is John McCain's former presidential campaign manager. We're digging deeper into his comment and what it means for the GOP.
Also, they're being called SEAL superheroes. We'll take you to their boot camp tonight.
Also, tell us what it's on your mind. Anything we put on the air here, or what we haven't put on. Twitter.com, Facebook and iReport.com -- that's how you have a voice on this show.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right, here we go, guys. Pay attention, because all across the country, people are making their voices heard about their money, specifically their tax dollars. CNN iReporter Vincent Wortmann from Michigan attended one of the many tea parties across the country.
Take a look at his report.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do we need change in Washington?
UNIDENTIFIED CROWD: Yes!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is this the kind of change we want?
UNIDENTIFIED CROWD: No!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So what do we want -- lower taxes?
UNIDENTIFIED CROWD: Yes!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. That's what we're here about. VINCENT WORTMANN, IREPORTER: OK. Now, you know, the president is saying that he's cutting taxes for 95 percent of the people, how do you feel about that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know? I don't buy it.
WORTMANN: Different protesters had different methods that ranged from being thoughtful and creative to being downright ignorant and derogatory.
(INAUDIBLE)
WORTMAN: I'm looking at your sign and it's very, very graphic. Yes. What's the reason for that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, to show our governor, our president, speaker of the House, what we really think of them.
(INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't understand why you take pictures of one sign and not of all the many, many signs that are here that are not that derogatory. That doesn't represent the people here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK, that was from our iReporter. That's from an iReporter, someone who just was out at one of the parties and got that, his name is Vincent Wortmann.
Joining us on the phone right now is "Washington Post" columnist Howard Kurtz. He's also the anchor and host of "Reliable Sources," which airs within our "STATE OF THE UNION" hours here on Sunday.
Howard, thank for joining us.
HOWARD KURTZ, "WASHINGTON POST" COLUMNIST (via telephone): Hi, Don.
LEMON: OK. So, listen, we're going to have some guests out of this and talk about the real deal on taxes. Let's talk about the media -- because much has been made of this. It's been all over the blogs. What is your assessment as someone who reports on the media all the time about what was behind these tea parties and the promotion of these tea parties?
KURTZ: Well, there's no question that FOX News hosts, you know, heavily promoted and publicized these tea party protests, and some of the commentators were the big stars, who did their shows in some of the cities where the protesters gathered.
At the same time, I think that much of the mainstream media, including "The Washington Post," "New York Times" and CNN kind of missed the significance of these protests. This was no Million Man March, but clearly, there's some grassroots unhappiness with President Obama and his big budget. And I think, there was a little bit too much of a dismissive attitude among some journalists as, well, this was just something that was orchestrated by FOX, when, in fact, it did have a grassroots aspect to it.
LEMON: Howard, thank you so much for saying that because, any time -- and I got tons of emails about this and people talking to us that anytime people are gathered in numbers, yes, we should cover. But if those people are gathered, we have to report what the truth is, and if they're gathering -- what the reasons they're gathering for if they know about the reasons they're gathering for.
So, you're saying that there were on both sides, Republican, liberal, whatever you want to say, whatever you want to call the media -- and CNN is not liberal. CNN is just someone who tries to report the facts, that's at least how I see it. So, your assessment, your final assessment, the reason I have you on is because you're going to -- you're leading, this is your lead story tomorrow when you go on the air.
KURTZ: Right.
LEMON: What's your assessment about both sides -- final assessment here -- how we could have handled it better or both sides?
KURTZ: Well, I think that FOX went a little overboard to the point where it almost seemed like the network was a co-sponsor of some of these demonstrations. But, at the same time, it was hard for the mainstream media to cover because the message was kind of incoherent. There were some people who were ticked off about taxes. There were some people who just don't like President Obama. There were some people who were anti-government.
As in any demonstration, we track people with lots of different points of view. But this did touch some kind of nerve. Maybe a flash in the pan, but I do think that when something like this happens, we ought to go out there and report it earlier than we did, and not just say, well, this is the creation of one news channel.
LEMON: "Washington Post" columnist, Howard Kurtz -- Howard, what time is your segment on tomorrow?
KURTZ: Our hour is 10:00 a.m. Eastern, and we got a lot of things planned, but we'll be leading off with the tea party protests and the coverage thereof.
LEMON: Ten a.m. Eastern, it's "Reliable Sources." And it airs within our "STATE OF THE UNION" hours with John King.
Howard Kurtz, thank you very much for this.
KURTZ: Thanks, Don.
LEMON: OK. So, tonight, we want to really dig into this. My guests: Tax attorney, Roni Deutch; author, columnist and blogger, David Sirota; and radio host Ben Ferguson with ICON Radio Network and the host of his show there.
And, Howard, are you going to stay with us? Is Howard still with us or did he hang up? Let's get Howard if we can, if we can get Howard back, we will.
OK. So, here's the thing. Honestly, guys, no agenda here, OK? We just want to get to the truth, and we want -- if people are protesting, they have the right to protest by any means. Trust me, I believe that everyone wants lower taxes. So if people are protesting, then they should be aware of what they're protesting for, whether -- do you agree -- do you agree with that, Ben?
BEN FERGUSON, ICON RADIO NETWOR: Yes.
LEMON: OK. So, let's talk about taxes. This was supposed to be about high taxes, am I right, Ben?
FERGUSON: Absolutely.
LEMON: OK.
FERGUSON: And I think it was more than that. I think it was about taxes in general and I think most -- majority of the people that were there knew exactly why they were there. They were there and I took heat for not endorsing this enough. I had people say, "You're not promoting this stuff. You're not telling people enough where it is. You're not getting behind this." And this was coming from conservatives.
So, I think it's pretty fair to say that this was not just orchestrated by -- I think you're giving too much credit to FOX News Channel.
LEMON: OK.
FERGUSON: To be honest with you, I think there's a lot of people that really wanted to go out there that have enough. They just saw a massive budget come through.
LEMON: Ben, you know, I don't disagree with you. I think that there were people from, you know, all walks of life who are out there and who are upset. And, hey, you know what? If they're upset, like I said, you have the right to protest, but you should know what you're protesting. You saw that ...
FERGUSON: And they did.
LEMON: But here's the thing. If you -- by all accounts, if you look at everything that we have written, it says the U.S. falls within the lowest tax bracket of about only four other nations, four other large nations. We're at the bottom and it's getting lower as the years progress. And under President Obama's new plan, the middle-class will make out better than they did in the years before. So then ....
FERGUSON: Well, again, that's a nice campaign statement from the Obama campaign. The reality is ...
LEMON: I'm not getting this -- listen, hang on, I'm not getting this from the Obama campaign. This is all the research that we have done. And it says, if you look at -- if you look at any of the tax research, we're at the bottom.
FERGUSON: But I've got -- I got one piece of research, where are the Bush tax cuts are going to go? They're about to expire. Where the things like the money that you inherit you're your family passes away, they're about to expire. That does not help people in the middle- class. And that is the untold ...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: OK. Hang on, Ben, I don't want to beat on things (ph) I'm not -- Ben and I talked and we're just having a discussion here, and I'm going to do the same thing with David. Let's let David Sirota. And, David, go ahead.
DAVID SIROTA, AUTHOR, "THE UPRISING": The point is, is that it's very strange to have an anti-tax protest when the president of the United States is proposing one of the biggest middle-class tax cuts in American history.
(LAUGHTER)
SIROTA: It's also strange to protest after George Bush ran up some of the biggest deficits that this country has every seen. During the Bush administration, polls showed that most people felt that their taxes went up because federal fees and middle-class taxes in many ways did go up. Who got the tax cuts under the Bush administration was primarily the very, very wealthy.
So, I understand the anger out there at the bailouts. I think that that's a big issue for both sides.
LEMON: David ...
SIROTA: But anger at taxes is a little bit strange.
LEMON: David, you bring up a very good point because, if you look at -- and some, a lot of folks out there said that they were upset because of the, you know, all of the bailouts and because of the stimulus and whatever reason (ph).
SIROTA: And that's legitimate.
LEMON: And that, you can -- if you were upset with that, you can -- you can protest against the Obama administration. But taxes, you know, I'm not so sure on that. So, let's bring in Roni Deutch.
Roni, where do we stand on taxes? What is the truth about taxes that Americans have been paying the last couple of years? Rising? Falling? And compare it to other countries.
RONI DEUTCH, "THE TAX LADY'S GUIDE TO BEATING THE IRS": Here's the issue: taxpayers are intoxicated. We are paying federal tax, state tax, gas tax, property tax, sales tax. We'll be taxed when we grieve.
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Amen.
DEUTCH: So when you and I step back and think about that taxpayer who's out there protesting, they want tax reform.
LEMON: Right.
DEUTCH: They're not saying to President Obama, "Hey, we don't think you're going to lower taxes for us." I think what they're saying is "I'm sick and tired of getting taxed to death when we're printing money and rewarding failure and mediocrity."
LEMON: Absolutely.
DEUTCH: Do you realize that 60 percent of the American people, small business owners like myself -- we bear the burden. We're the people employing Americans. I want to see some great tax programs for small business owners. Don, what about the 30 million to 40 million people who cannot even afford to pay the IRS? These are much larger issues.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Hang on. Roni, you know, I heard that you were enthusiastic about taxes when we reached out to you and you are. Thank you, I appreciate your energy and enthusiasm.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: But hang on, I want to know--hold on, Ben, everybody's going to get a chance here -- but I want to know, when -- and do we have that graphic, Jean (ph), that we had, that we made up?
When you look at this, this is what taxes are spent on in the United States: Health care, 23 percent; Social Security, 21 percent; national defense, 19 percent; income security, 14 percent; interest on death, 8 percent. And then when it goes down to veterans and what you have, it gets lower, it's like -- there you go -- 3 percent and then 5 percent for others.
Now, as you look at the data, of course, everyone wants lower taxes, we get that. But if you look at the data, the taxes haven't gone up, though, Roni. So, explain that to me, if you will. I want to know myself.
DEUTCH: Here's the issue, Don, I think everyone agrees that we have to pay taxes, right? We need fire, we need police. But what are we getting for that money is the issue.
LEMON: And that's we showed what we're getting for that money, right?
DEUTCH: Do you realize how bad things are here in California? Our criminal justice system is awful, our roads are awful, our schools are awful. What I'm saying to you is, we're all about paying our fair share.
LEMON: Right. DEUTCH: But we want some. And right now, what taxpayers are seeing and why they're out there protesting, Don, is simple. Why are we giving all this money to big business people? That's the perception. And perception is (INAUDIBLE).
LEMON: I understand that. I understand that. And we're going to talk about this more, because I understand why they're out there protesting. And like I said, everyone wants lower taxes. I want lower taxes.
FERGUSON: But it wasn't ...
LEMON: Hang on. We're going -- Ben, I'm going to let you talk. So, we're going to get more, talk more about the truth about taxes in just a little bit. A no holds barred conversation; and if it's going to go longer, then we have planned on going, because this is a very good conversation.
And also, also another story that's been in the news, we have been talking about that captain who was saved on that ship when he was surrounded and held at gunpoint by pirates. We're going to go inside the Navy SEALs training that saved his life. We're back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right, if you didn't see our last segment, you missed some really good television, because it is on. We're trying to get to the truth behind taxes.
My guests are back: Tax attorney, Roni Deutch; author and columnist and blogger, David Sirota; and radio host Ben Ferguson with ICON Radio Network.
Ben, I'm going to let you talk because I stopped you several times. The only reason I did that is because I really wanted, you know, Roni is a tax expert and I wanted to get -- wanted her voice heard. So, go ahead, Ben. I'm sorry.
FERGUSON: Let's go back to the tax thing. I think this is the one thing that people -- the reason why you had people from both political spectrum show up is because they realized that something just happened, the deficit just went up drastically. We just literally made a trillion more dollars and threw it out there. We're bailing out huge corporations, and this guy's saying, "Hey, I'm going to give you a tax break," and they're going, "You know what, if you're going to tax the guys that employ me to death, I'll lose my job."
That's the reason why this week, the Obama administration said in Washington ...
SIROTA: Trickle down, trickle down, trickle down.
FERGUSON: No, no -- hold on.
SIROTA: Trickle down, trickle down, trickle down.
LEMON: Go ahead, David.
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: It's a cute point, but you're missing the facts here.
SIROTA: We have been hearing this stuff -- we have been hearing this stuff for 30 years.
FERGUSON: Hey, there's the reason why we're the greatest country in the world.
SIROTA: Cut taxes on the wealthiest people on the country and they'll benevolently be nice to all of us -- all the masses. Cut taxes on the super-wealthy and it will trickle down.
FERGUSON: Again, I go back to this point, why do we have more millionaires -- why do we have more millionaires in America than any other country in the world?
SIROTA: You got new talking points. Most polls -- most recent polls show that the public ...
FERGUSON: Why?
SIROTA: ... that the American public wants taxes raised on the wealthy.
FERGUSON: Really?
SIROTA: To most Americans, the most recent Gallup poll shows that the public thinks the wealthy pay too little taxes. That's right.
FERGUSON: So, most Americans -- most Americans wanted the "American Dream" to be killed.
SIROTA: Majority understands that the tax system is not fair and rewards the super-wealthy.
FERGUSON: I go back to -- there's a reason why America ...
(CROSSTALK)
FERGUSON: Hold on.
LEMON: One at a time.
SIROTA: You want to keep giving taxes for zillionaires.
FERGUSON: There's a reason why America is the greatest country in the world, and that's because you actually can and I believe ...
(CROSSTALK)
SIROTA: Because we didn't used to cut on taxes on billionaires.
FERGUSON: Hold on, listen to what I'm actually saying, OK? My point is this about America, the reason why we're the greatest nation in the world and the reason why we have lower taxes is because we actually, in this country, allow people to succeed and we don't tax them to death. Your mindset is, if you make too much money, you should pay more, and that's what kills the "American Dream."
LEMON: OK. David, a quick respond.
(CROSSTALK)
SIROTA: I'll respond to that by saying, remember, our economy did the best, was the strongest and grew at the fastest when the highest rate of taxes was over 70 percent.
LEMON: OK.
SIROTA: So your idea of slashing taxes for zillionaires ...
FERGUSON: And what year was that?
SIROTA: ... as a way to build our economy is what got us into this mess.
LEMON: All right. Hang on, guys. We got to let Roni -- Roni is our tax attorney here.
Roni, so, explain this to me then, this is according -- there's one according to "Forbes," there's one according to "The Times," there's one according to "Washington Post" that says, "The irony of these protests is that federal revenues as a share of the gross domestic product will be lower this year since 1950. According to the Congressional Budget Office, the federal government will take only 15.5 percent of GDP in taxes this year, compared to 17 last year, 18.8 in 2007, and 20.9 in 2000."
Then one report says, "For a family of one who's earning, they'll pay lower taxes than the data in 2005." And one more, "The affected tax rates have changed, haven't changed much in the last few years, but they have bounced around over the last three decades. But they are the lowest among most nations and lower than what they have been in years."
Explain that to me, then, Roni.
DEUTCH: Yes, I think we're in a good tax cycle. If you were to step back and just look at the rates alone, you bet. We are at lower rates than we have been in the past. So, I think if people are whining today about the tax rates, they have another issue.
And the issue is: Why don't we fix the system, Don? Hear me out. We have a $300 billion to $600 billion tax gap. What does that mean? That means that we got people in the underground who are not ...
LEMON: Oh, we lost Roni. Sorry about that, we'll try to get -- we'll try to get Roni and Ben back. Apparently, we're having some satellite problems.
David, go ahead. You wanted to continue her thoughts.
SIROTA: Yeah. She's making the right point. The tax system is not fair right now, we do need tax reform, there is a tax gap, we're not collecting lots of taxes on the wealthy and on corporations. And I also want to say that I think that the part of the protest that had a lot of merit was look, I'm a taxpayer, I'm a progressive, I don't like paying lots of taxes when our government is handing out trillions of dollars in bailouts. That is the fundamental problem here, not the tax rates.
LEMON: All right, David, I can hear it now, that was strictly by accident, I guess we're having some weather problems and satellite issues, so we lost those two guys, we're going to try to get them back because we want them to have a final word as well. And we don't want it to seem like we cut those guys out.
David, we appreciate it, thank you very much, we'll try to get you back in the conversation as well. Very interesting. Very interesting.
OK, so Howard Kurtz, the best political team on television, we'll take a closer look at the anti-tax tea party tomorrow morning, STATE OF THE UNION, John King, 9:00 a.m. Eastern, 6:00 a.m. Pacific. Please, please tune in and, again, that's what we do here, no holds barred conversation. And we apologize for the satellite problems, we will try to get them back.
Captain Richard Phillips said it best.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPT. RICHARD PHILLIPS, RESCUED HOSTAGE: The first people I want to thank are the SEALs. They're the superheroes, they're the titans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And they are the best of the best. The U.S. Navy SEALs. They were the key to Captain Richard Phillips' successful rescue. We'll take you to boot camp coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right, checking our top stories for you this hour. There's tragic news out of Maryland. An entire family found dead in Middletown, northwest of Baltimore. Police say 44-year-old Christopher Wood apparently killed his wife and three young children before shooting and killing himself. And authorities say some of the victims have, quote, "severe lacerations and cut wounds." Sad story.
Meantime, an American journalist is facing eight years of prison in Iran. Roxana Saberi has been jailed for spying the United States today in a trial that was closed to the public. She denies the charges. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton says she's deeply disappointed in the verdict and she is working to get more information on that case. Yet another ship has been hijacked by Somali pirates, this one registered to Belgium. It happened off the coast of the Seychelles Islands in the Indian Ocean. The ship has a crew of seven. E-mail was sent to the U.S. Navy claiming the ship would be taken to a pirate stronghold north of Mogadishu.
Well, Captain Richard Phillips is home after he and his crew were held captive also by Somali pirates. He is fanning away his hero accolades and instead says the Navy SEALs are the real heroes. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: The first people I want to thank are the SEALs, they're the superheroes, they are the titans, they do the impossible (ph) and do an impossible job and they did the impossible with me. I just want you to know they are out there, they are everyday people we will not recognize and I will not divulge, but they did an excellent job and they saved me. They're at the point of the sword every day doing an impossible job which we cannot comprehend.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: You just heard Captain Phillips call the Navy SEALs who rescued him, he called them superheroes. CNN Pentagon correspondent Chris Lawrence takes a look at how they're trained.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN CORRESPONENT (voice-over): A Navy SEAL team deploys in a California can desert. But it's just one part of their training. Each of these SEALs has fired his weapon thousands of times. In every way possible, bone dry, soaking wet, sitting still, at a full run.
The Navy says a SEAL can fire more ammo in one training session than some troops do their entire careers. It's an elite group of only 2,600 men and they're all considered expert marksmen.
CMDR. DUNCAN SMITH, U.S. NAVY SEALS: These are the folks that the nation counts on for those maritime special operations missions.
LAWRENCE: Training begins right here at Basic Underwater Demolition School, or BUDS.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You get halfway, your swim buddy has got to be there to take the dumbbell from you.
LAWRENCE: It's called the toughest training in the world. Six months of sheer hell.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can't do this (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
LAWRENCE: Recruits who make it to Hell Week will sleep a total of four hours max over the entire five-days. It's designed to push a man past his breaking point and prepare them to one day complete a mission like the one off the coast of Somalia. There, the SEALs parachuted into the Indian Ocean and waited for hours on the back deck for a split second opportunity to shoot.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were in a higher state of readiness, toward the end there, I'm sure they were locked - dialed in the wait forgive that shot.
LAWRENCE: Sharp shooters have been through two tours of duty with their SEAL team. Twenty six SEALs have been killed since September 11 but those deaths motivate this class on the morning of their five-mile swim.
More than four hours, in cold, open water, each stroke a little closer to earning the SEAL's trident.
CHRISTOPHER MADDOX, SEAL RECRUIT: It's just a little piece of medal that you put on your shirt, but knowing where that piece of medal comes from, everyone that's died or gotten hurt for it, it means more to me than anything.
LAWRENCE (on camera): Instructors say it's that intense mental discipline that really separates the SEALs. The sharp shooters on the Bainbridge would have been through a photo imaging course where they learned to take pictures of their targets, then surveillance training and then sniper school. Those shots they took would have been like muscle memory for them. Chris Lawrence, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: Chris, thank you very much for bringing us that.
Joining us now, two former Navy SEALs, Harry Humphries is in Los Angeles and Brandon Webb is in San Diego. Thank you both very much for joining us.
I told you I saw a series a couple of years back, class 234, 238, 239, I think it was by Discovery or the Military Channel, and I couldn't stop watching what these guys go through, it's really blood, sweat and tears, Harry.
HARRY HUMPHRIES, FORMER NAVY SEAL: Well, it is. The stuff that you go through especially in the initial stages of training, first phase, second phase, the intensity of the -- I wouldn't say harassment, but the intensity of the attention you're given is such that it would knock out most anybody. We lose in that training process typically around 70 to 75 percent.
LEMON: And they're trying to improve that. Hey, Brandon, talk to us about the training, because obviously it is really intense and when you look at the missions by Captain Phillips, absolutely necessary this intense training that these guys go through, because those shots, it's not easy to make, those shots I should say.
BRANDON WEBB, FORMER NAVY SEAL: Yeah, Don. Absolutely. The BUDS training is hard enough as it is. As you can see from the prior footage, but we get these guys in the SEAL community that come to sniper training and we have them for three months and we put them through such rigorous stress to simulate these real world environments and situations that I have had more than one graduate look me in the eye and say I would rather go through the entire seven months of BUDS training over again than the sniper course because it's just so stressful. But we graduate the top marksmen and I'm proud to have personally been a part of the program as a sniper course manager.
LEMON: Obviously we saw on the video that you do training and as far as guns and shooting, how difficult is this shot and I would imagine that when you're going through this, there's certain people who are better marksmen than others. But pretty much all of the Navy SEALs are pretty good shots. How difficult was it? Explain that.
WEBB: Well, the sniper school itself is very difficult and it takes a different breed that makes a sniper. It takes -- we -- the guys that graduate out of BUDS are top notch, but it takes a certain attribute, to be very high degree of intellect, a high degree of patience to actually make it through the sniper training itself. Even in the sniper school, we have a pretty high attrition rate, and a lot of really good guys just don't make it through because they don't have what it takes in that short amount of time that we have them, three months to really make it through the entire program and we test to a very high degree, we test out to on a variety of different weapons systems, out to a thousand meters and it's just a very stressful course.
LEMON: And you can see from -- I can only imagine just from watching that and they lose about 70 percent of the guys, but I understand now through some research that they're trying to do a better job and that it's actually working.
This is a very elite group of men and you can see why because of what they do. Why so secretive about their mission? And I know this is an obvious question here, but why so secretive and why don't we know more about this special unit?
HUMPRHIES: Well op sec, as we call it, operational security is paramount. We can't give even the smallest details away. On how we operate. Brandon and I, for instance, having these interviews have to be very careful about how much we do talk about. Our brothers are out there at war, when which start talking to you folks out there, we're also talking to the enemy, we know that, so we have to be very careful in what we talk about. We're very sensitive to that.
LEMON: You said even the pirates are going to learn from this experience because it was splashed all over the world so you are going to have to change operations if there is a next time, let's hope there's not, then you would have to change. Listen, the SEALs are heroes, agreed, right?
WEBBS: Absolutely. I think, too, Don, it's really important to look at three things that made this whole thing a huge success was the intense amount of training that these U.S. Special Operations forces go through, and not only the Navy SEALs but the other military units, but, you know, it's an excellent plan that was flawlessly executed and, you know, ultimately the authorities, you know, having had experiencing on the ground with sights on target on the battlefield, it's absolutely critical that you get that authority from the top down and, you know, I think the Obama administration should be credited with the decisiveness that ultimately enables guys on the ground to do a great job and complete the mission.
LEMON: Brandon Webb and Harry Humphries. Thank you very much.
The reason why I asked that is Captain Richard Phillips is also a hero even though he's saying he's not. We appreciate you as former Navy SEALs and we appreciate our current men and women in the uniform as well. Thank you guys so much.
WEBB: Thanks, Don.
HUMPRHIES: Thank you.
LEMON: OK. Our tax tea party, the panel we have been talking about, they are coming back, it was really was a satellite problem. That's it. As I said there's no agenda here, we just want to get to the truth. I'm learning a lot, I hope you guys are learning a lot. We're going to continue the truth about taxes coming up next, don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Here's what you guying are saying about these subjects, most of you are commenting on the taxes. And also the SEALs, got some very nice tweets on the SEALs.
Here's what Yogi says, "Taxes have become a penalty for living and profiting in America, not a supportive contribution. Fewer taxes will help us all."
Lolvincitomnia, I don't know what that says, says, "Taxes have gone up, fed, state and local, cost of living, no job creation, we can't afford to live, Don and Obama doesn't care."
OneClubGolf says, "Tea party attendees are great Americans, why don't you take the time to ask them what they think?"
We showed you what they thought. We showed some stuff.
Dobos says, "The tea parties are absurd at a time when taxes are lower for most of us and Bush did a lot of spending and got nothing for it."
StabyC says, "The people who are having tea parties are part of the reason the U.S. is in the shape it's been and they put Bush in office two times. Keep your comments coming, we'll put them on the air whether you agree with us or not."
OK, our panel is back. There was nothing fishy going on, except we had a satellite problem. I thought it was the weather because Bonnie said we had weather. Guys, nothing fishy, satellite problems. Roni?
DEUTCH: Just satellite problems.
LEMON: Ben?
FERGUSON: Absolutely. LEMON: So Roni, let's finish our conversation. Before I get into this, no agenda, except to inform people, that's what we want. We're not taking a side. So go ahead, Roni, you finished your thought. You talked about why are taxes going down and people are protesting?
DEUTCH: Again, numbers don't lie and people do. Right now as you said, Don, our tax rates are low, they're the lowest they have been in a long time. But you and I know look at the totality of the circumstances. It goes back to some of your quotes. We know we're paying a lot to the state, we know we're paying a lot in other areas of our life. But you're right, taxes are lower today and what Obama has said really is true.
So the fact that people are out there protesting, what I like about is it I want to see tax reform. I don't want to see 60 percent of people have to hire someone to do their taxes. I don't want to see 70 percent of Americans getting a tax refund. If we learn a little more about tax and we make some very minor adjustments I think we could save a lot of money and capture the $300 billion to $600 billion in the tax gap that's floating out to nowhere.
LEMON: OK, Roni, thank. We're coming up on the end and I want to get to everyone give you -- Ben and I talk like this all the time. Ben, I'm going to give you the last word so I'm going to David. Your final thoughts.
SIROTA: I think there is a tax gap. I think tax simplicity is important. But I think a lot of people were at the tea parties because they don't like the bailouts and don't like where their tax money is going and going to huge corporations in a no strings attached kind of fashion. As a progressive, I understand that impulse and applaud it.
LEMON: OK. Ben Ferguson.
FERGUSON: I can't believe I -- I agree with that completely. I think what this was about is the fact that people don't like where their money is actually being spent now and they like -- it makes them angry when they see these corporations get all of this money and see these new budgets, which is a massive handout. Yet, in reality, it's still not helping them that much at all. But these other companies, it's helping them a ton. That's why you had people come out from both sides. That's why it was newsworthy.
SIROTA: See, we can agree, man. We can agree on something.
LEMON: So listen. You put it out there. We learned, right? And we move on. And we do the best -- whatever is best for America. If you want to protest, fine, that's your right. If you want -- whatever it is -- we learn about coverage. We move on. Thank you all for joining us. Roni, appreciate your expertise. David, thank you. And, Ben, I'll talk to you soon.
FERGUSON: Sounds good.
LEMON: We'll have a discussion over the phone and go back and forth. Thank you all. Appreciate it.
We'll have much, much more on the tea parties tomorrow morning STATE OF THE UNION, John King 9:00 a.m. Eastern, 6:00 Pacific.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Well, a businessman in Upstate New York hopes to be hiring soon. His green cheese could cut his community's jobless rate, which is hovering near 10 percent. Here's cnnmoney.com's Poppy Harlow. Her report part of our new series called "Money and Main Street." Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
POPPY HARLOW, CNNMONEY.COM CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For Cuba County, New York, an entrepreneur with an affinity for cheese could be just the stimulus that its struggling towns need.
LARRY ROSENBAUM, SARATOGA CHEESE CORPORATION: This is the beginning of a trend of bringing back manufacturing industry to New York State.
HARLOW: For 10 years Larry Rosenbaum has been dreaming of a cheese factory turning out kosher and halal feta and brie to the tune of 30 million pounds a year.
(on camera): What is the demand? And is it just in the U.S. or is it around the world?
ROSENBAUM: Well, actually in the United States, the kosher cheese market is the type of cheese that's being made is not a high quality cheese.
HARLOW (voice-over): Drawing from local farms and using green technology, Saratoga Cheese Corp hopes not only to make cheese but also help surrounding industries.
DALE HEMMINGER, HEMDALE FARMS: It's a really important thing that we're getting another market for our product.
HARLOW: Dairy farmer Dale Hemminger was a little skeptical of Larry's plan at first.
HEMMINGER: I was concerned. I really admire the research they've done.
HARLOW (voice-over): As soon as 2010, this barren cornfield on the outskirts of town could be home to a $40 million, 64,000 square foot cheese factory. And with the cheese will come the jobs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's 75 people that will be employed at the factory.
HARLOW: But Larry's dream is still $10 million short. He says he's raised $30 million, but can't break ground until he reaches $40 million. As for the final slice of funding, Larry says both a dairy company and a private equity firm have expressed interest. ROSENBAUM: We're not going to quit until we make it.
HARLOW: With 75 jobs at the factory, 150 construction jobs and an estimated $140 million in local revenue waiting in the balance, a lot is riding on Larry's shoulders. It sure is.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HARLOW (on camera): Well, Larry, his friend, his family, they've all invested $1 million of their own money in the project, which is 10 years in the making. We're going to stay in touch with Larry, let you know how he makes out.
Don?
LEMON: All right, Poppy. Thank you. We're not done yet. Much more to come. Back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: A murder/suicide in Maryland. Horrific shooting in Binghamton, New York and the seemingly random shootings in Alabama. I've asked a clinical psychologist Dr. Gloria Morrill (ph) and psychotherapist Linda Myles to join me to discuss why we're so violent and how we can better cope with stress and recognize a person on the edge. That's at 10:00 tonight. "Addiction: Life on the Edge", a CNN special report by Dr. Sanjay Gupta right now.
