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A Soldier's Rampage; Accused Nazi Arrives in Germany
Aired May 12, 2009 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): A U.S. soldier in Iraq kills five of his own. How did it happen? New details.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His weapon was taken by his commander a week earlier.
SANCHEZ: Michael Steele says Romney lost because -- well, because he's a Mormon. And now Romney's camp is firing back.
CARRIE PREJEAN, MISS CALIFORNIA: I exercised my freedom of speech, and I was punished for doing so.
SANCHEZ: More photos released of Miss California in defiance of pageant rules. And Trump decides whether it's enough to toss out her tiara.
DONALD TRUMP, CHAIRMAN & CEO, TRUMP HOTELS & CASINO RESORTS: We have reviewed the pictures very carefully.
SANCHEZ: John Demjanjuk, accused Nazi and mass murder suspect, arrives in Germany looking like he's in a coma. But is he that sick? What about this picture?
Your national conversation begins right now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: And hello, again, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez with the next generation of news. This is a conversation. It is not a speech, and it is your turn to get involved.
If you're as curious as I am about why a soldier would grab a gun and kill five of his fellow soldiers in Iraq, as the accusation now stands, then this is the place for you to be. You want details, we got them.
I have been on the phone today with our man in Baghdad, and what he's been telling me is amazing.
Cal Perry joins me now live from Baghdad.
Cal, you told me that his commander was on to him, it seems, right? How so?
CAL PERRY, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF: One hundred percent so, Rick.
We understand that there were a series of meetings between last week and yesterday within this chain of command between this U.S. soldier and people like the chaplain. And, in fact, the commander referred him to this stress center, which is why he was there yesterday -- Rick.
SANCHEZ: And you say they took his weapons away from him? You take a weapon away from a soldier, doesn't that defeat the whole idea of having a soldier?
PERRY: That's right. A soldier will tell you that the weapon is an extension of him. It's a tool that they use.
The commander ordered that this soldier have his weapon removed from him -- and I'm quoting here -- because he appeared to possess a threat to himself and others. So, this guy was without a weapon for the past week. He was without a weapon when he first went to that stress clinic -- Rick.
SANCHEZ: So, where did he get these -- obviously, he had a weapon when he shot and killed these five guys, according to officials there. Where did he get it?
PERRY: This is where we get a bit off the reservation, Rick.
Now, here's what we understand the timeline of events as they occurred. He goes to the stress center. There's an altercation at the stress center. Things get very heated. He then leaves the stress center and a few hours later, we're being told, he commandeers not only a weapon from a fellow soldier, but a vehicle as well.
He drives across the base to the clinic, walks into the front door, opens up fire, killing five of his fellow soldiers -- Rick.
SANCHEZ: You wonder if they were on to him they didn't have him confined or watched or why he wasn't in the brig somewhere.
PERRY: Yes. Hindsight is 20/20, and I don't want to criticize the military too much here, but I think your point is well taken. They certainly can't put somebody in the brig unless they have broken some rules.
But, certainly, it does make you wonder with suicide rates as high as they have ever been within the U.S. military, with divorce rates as high as they have ever been within the U.S. military, with PTSD numbers, the figures absolutely staggering, 300,000, according to some veterans organizations, as we look back at this, and I'm sure that this will be part of the investigation that the military does, why this guy wasn't put in some kind of suicide watch, solitary confinement, especially when you have got that quote from his commander that he -- quote -- "may have possessed a threat to himself and others."
SANCHEZ: We're going to find out more about this stress center, by the way, in just a little bit, because we have a guest who is going to bring us through it.
But I'm curious. He goes into the stress center, allegedly starts shooting, kills five people, injures two or three others. And then what does he do? What's he do when he's done with that?
PERRY: He walks out the front door, Rick, right out of the front door of the stress center, into the street. Now, we're told that one of the soldiers who saw him commandeer the weapon and the vehicle notified the military police, the M.P.s.
Now, these M.P.s walk around these bases armed for reasons like this. He walks out in the middle of the street, and that is when the M.P.s apparently took him down. That is our understanding of the sequence of events as it stands now. But, again, this is still unfolding as we speak, Rick.
SANCHEZ: I will tell you, Cal, you have been doing a great job following this story for us.
The only thing I'm still -- you know what I'm still curious about? I'm curious about all these tours that these guys do and whether, after a while, it's just too much pressure on them. This guy apparently was on his third tour, as I understand it. How many other guys are out there that could be in the same situation as this?
PERRY: This guy was on his third tour. And it was a 15-month- long tour. He had three months left.
If you talk to certain veterans organizations, they will tell you that they're estimating that there are 300,000 U.S. soldiers with PTSD. And not all of them are in Iraq. A lot of them have returned home.
I want to tell you something. Three years ago, I was sitting with a hero of mine, a man that I consider to be a good friend, and I'm proud to call him a good friend, Bobby Muller. And he founded an organization called Veterans for America. He was shot in Vietnam.
He was a Vietnam veteran. He was a captain in the Marine Corps. He was paralyzed. He's been in a wheelchair ever since. Three years ago, we're sitting at the Ritz Carlton in Washington, D.C., and he looked at me and he said that the veterans that are coming home from Iraq are going to have a harder time adapting back into normal society in America than the Vietnam veterans did when they came home from that war.
If you want to talk about a national conversation, Rick, I think this is something we're going to be talking about for years.
SANCHEZ: I'm certainly glad you brought it to our attention once again.
Stay on that story for us. Wow. Talk about a story rich with details. Cal, thanks so much. We appreciate it.
What Miss California says about the semi-nude pictures. "I was only 16," she says. "Do you remember everything you did at that age?" she asks reporters. Does her explanation pass the Trump test? You're going to be hearing from both.
Also, a woman takes on her abuser, her boss -- how she took down the drunken giant.
And you're going to hear from one of the few people who can say that they have been in a stress center where a U.S. soldier apparently lost it. There's Saad. He's one of our producers. He's going to be joining us in just a little bit and taking us through this specific place that we're talking about where he has visited.
His story when we come back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: And thanks for being back. I'm Rick Sanchez. Yes, I am a little horse today, or a little pony, as I once said.
What an awful story that we have been following out of Iraq. One U.S. soldier shoots and kills five of his fellow troops in Baghdad. His name is Sergeant John Russell. He was on his third deployment, and it may have gotten to him.
His commanders, as you have just learned in my interview with Cal Perry just a moment ago, had taken away his weapons and they were examining his mental condition before this happened.
I want to bring somebody who knows a little bit about this, Saad Abedine. He's a producer here on CNN's International Desk. He was just in Baghdad, saw for himself what combat stress clinic that we're talking about, and learned some things about the effect of war on the men and women who fight those wars.
Saad, thanks for being with us.
SAAD ABEDINE, CNN INTERNATIONAL PRODUCER: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: What's it -- what does this place look like? What is a stress center?
ABEDINE: Well, I was there in July 2008. And, at that time, it was described to us to be the largest facility for a stress clinic for the military in Iraq.
SANCHEZ: But you walked in. You went inside this place.
ABEDINE: It's a very simple environment. It's a place where they can bring in the soldiers. Soldiers can come in. They get screened. They get checked. And then they can stay for up to three days. Some others need -- may need some extra supervision, some follow-up.
But it's a very simple environment. The good thing about that place, Rick, is that... SANCHEZ: Let me ask you before -- before you tell me about the place, is -- does it have -- are they beds? Are there couches? Are there offices with psychologists? Do they talk to them? Draw me a picture. Draw me a picture.
(CROSSTALK)
ABEDINE: Here's the thing. It's a very simple environment. You walk in, there are four rooms, four, and they -- and each room had four beds where soldiers can sleep in, very basic rooms. There's one TV in the middle. There's a guitar. I saw a guitar at that time.
There are some games, various games, where they can just sit down and play. There is also a big table where -- more like a conference table, where they can sit down, have these kind of like a group therapy session, really.
SANCHEZ: Right.
ABEDINE: And, also in the back, they have these rooms for -- for the team that is dealing, that is handling, basically, the facility. And they have rooms for a one-on-one conversation with each soldier.
SANCHEZ: So, I mean, it almost sounds like a term that people use all the time, like a psych ward, where they send people who may be having mental problems of some kind, with varying degrees, I'm sure.
(CROSSTALK)
ABEDINE: Yes. But here's what the military told us.
The military told us that they totally understand that these soldiers are, you know, can be stressed and they can walk in, seek help, seek counseling, and they're in hostile environments. So, this is why they have such a facility, where they can sit down, discuss their situation, and talk about it.
SANCHEZ: Wow. Was it busy when you were there? Did it seem like it was getting a lot of usage?
ABEDINE: No, we only saw the team who was handling the stress clinic. We did not see any of the patients, for privacy issues, of course. They didn't want us to talk to anybody in particular.
SANCHEZ: Of course, yes.
ABEDINE: That we also had to blur the names on the board. There was a huge white board where they have a schedule for everything that they are doing -- 5:30, there is female shower, male shower after that, breakfast, and then they do an activity and clean up. They clean up after they eat, of course.
Then they have the first session, where they can sit down, talk about stress management and various issues.
SANCHEZ: And it's interesting that he had some kind of issue. According to Cal Perry, he had some kind of issue there, went away, then came back with the weapons, and decided to, according to authorities, well, shoot as many as seven people, killing five of them.
You're one of the few people who's been one of the -- in one of these centers who could actually shed light on it. Thanks so much for doing it for us.
ABEDINE: Thank you so much.
SANCHEZ: Saad, we appreciate it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ED ROLLINS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Dick Cheney basically, as much as anybody, made Colin Powell who he was.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: We made you and we can break you. The line is used in countless movies, right? Is that what Republicans are saying now about Colin Powell?
Also, you saw the accused Nazi war crime suspect removed from his home in Ohio live on our air yesterday. Well, guess what? Now he's in Germany. We're going to take you there for the very latest on the man that some nickname Ivan the Terrible. Is he really that sick, by the way? Stay with us. We will have it for you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: And we welcome you back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
We have been getting a lot of comments from you in just a little bit. As a matter of fact, let's -- let's do this. Let's go over to MySpace, if we can. This one came in just moments ago while we were in a commercial.
"We're busy -- we're busy," it reads, "trying to take care of the physical part of our troops, but not the mental. And they see and endure much -- more than we could ever know."
Point well taken, something I think folks in the military have been taking count of recently as well.
On television, Donald Trump fires people who break company rules. Today, he had to decide whether to fire for real. Miss California, Carrie Prejean, signed a contract stipulating that she had never posed nude or semi-nude. But, apparently, she had. On two occasions, Prejean said, one set was taken by a friend and another was taken on a shoot by a photographer who broke his deal with her. That's what she said today.
And, today, Donald Trump said he's looked at the photos very carefully, and he's reached his conclusion.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We have determined that the -- that the pictures taken are fine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Well, here's what's interesting about this. He decided that she can keep her crown. And Prejean was there, right there to his right, as a matter of fact, on your screen.
She says the controversy wasn't about the photos or even about her lying about the photos. She says it was all about her standing up against Perez Hilton, who she refers to as judge number eight at the Miss USA Pageant.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PREJEAN: Three weeks ago, I was asked a politically charged question with a hidden personal agenda. I answered my question honestly and sincerely from my heart.
On April 19, on that stage, I exercised my freedom of speech, and I was punished for doing so. This should not happen in America. It undermines the constitutional rights for which my grandfather fought for.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: By the way, Prejean's defenses for her semi-nude photos, as for the newest pics, the ones that just came out recently, she says a photographer on a shoot took pictures of her between poses.
As for the older pics taken when she was only 16 years old, she asked reporters, "Do you remember everything you did when you were 16?"
By the way, not a single reporter admitted to having naked pictures taken of themselves at that time.
And, boy, have you been commenting on this. Let's go to the Twitter board, if we possibly can.
This is DivaMuse, who says, "We are not at Miss Cali because she's talking about her views. We're mad because she has talking, period."
Break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RONALD REAGAN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The answer lies in a tax cut, a genuine tax cut, to be effective on January 1, 1981.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Will the magic of cutting taxes still work for the GOP? Congressman Patrick McHenry is going to join me to chat about the Grand Old Party's present-day relevance.
Is that a proper way of putting it, Congressman?
(LAUGHTER)
REP. PATRICK MCHENRY (R), NORTH CAROLINA: I think so.
SANCHEZ: We will be right back with you, sir. Stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REAGAN: The answer lies in a tax cut, a genuine tax cut, to be effective on January 1, 1981.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: The Republican mantra, and its author, Ronald Reagan, tax cuts, it goes back nearly 30 years, now, doesn't it? Good economy, tax cuts. Bad economy, tax cuts. When there's a budget surplus, tax cuts. When there's a budget deficit, call for tax cuts.
As a purely political strategy, the tax cut mantra produced an era of GOP dominance. It was, no question, the right message for the right time politically. Now, though, in 2009, is it still the right message?
Well, the answer, according to most Republicans, is -- well, here, watch for yourself. Dan, roll the tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. RON PAUL (R), TEXAS: Cut taxes. I always vote to cut taxes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tax cuts, where you keep your money.
REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: We can't tax and spend our way to prosperity.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: We need to cut the payroll tax. And we need to cut business taxes. And we need to have a permanent moratorium on new taxes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: The Republican tax cut mantra has been heavily covered and reported, which is why I was stunned to read this quote from a Republican lawmaker.
Here, let me read it to you. It goes like this. "Marginal tax rates are the lowest they have been in generations, and all we can talk about is tax cuts. We're stuck, stuck in our old issue set."
That's Congressman Patrick McHenry, who is being quoted here. And he's kind enough to join us now from Washington.
Congressman, thanks so much for being with us, sir.
MCHENRY: Thanks, Rick. Thanks for having me on.
SANCHEZ: Stuck is the word you use, not once, but twice. What do you mean by stuck?
MCHENRY: Well, the fact is, we're using the same message Ronald Reagan used in 1976 and 1980. Now, they were effective in carrying us to the majority in 1994 and they have been effective. They have been.
I'm not talking about changing the priorities of our party. I'm not talking about changing the principles of our party or the values of our party. I'm talking about repackaging our offering, our product offering, our policies that we're offering for the American people, and answering what the American people want today.
In a day and age when we're talking about the environment, when we're talking about energy, when we're talking about education and the need for education reform and -- and reducing the size and scope of government, and getting us out of this tough -- these tough economic times that we have, we need to talk about the issues that are relevant to people now. And that's what I have been trying to say.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Is it some of the -- well, I hate -- you know, I have got to be careful how I say this, because those suits in New York are probably watching me about now, and they get mad when I say things a certain way.
The old set or the old guard in the Republican Party, just like there is an old guard in the Democratic Party, by the way, is it hard to change their minds about this kind of thing? I mean, Meghan McCain -- I'm not saying anybody, you or me, have to be in favor what she says, but she's out there kind of saying the same thing. The Republican Party is not thinking about younger people.
MCHENRY: Well, there are a couple different ways that we have to -- to broach this.
And every party is slow to change. I mean, the Democrat Party was very slow to change and I think Barack Obama's broken the mold with that. What we have to do, as conservatives, what -- what I have to do with my party is make sure that we hold our strong conservative principles, but create policies that are relevant to people as they live today.
And we have to communicate in a way that people can relate to today.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: So, when you -- when -- so -- so, if -- so, if what you're saying is that the party hasn't evolved properly, what do you do when you're sitting around with some of your older colleagues about getting them to evolve, maybe getting a little more hip, so that more people will join in the -- the GOP?
MCHENRY: Well, what happens in every political party is, when you are winning elections, you obviously have a pretty good formula. So, you know, from '94 until '06, we were winning elections.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
MCHENRY: So, therefore, things didn't change as quickly.
What we see now is, people are on Facebook. I have got a Facebook page. I have got a Twitter page as well.
SANCHEZ: Yes, baby.
MCHENRY: Well, exactly. And you referenced Twitter.
(LAUGHTER)
MCHENRY: Well, text-messaging, we have kids today, kids in their 20s -- I mean, I'm 33 years old. People in my generation and younger generations don't e-mail as much. They text-message. They send -- they send Facebook messages.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But you had a candidate -- you had a candidate, speaking of McCains...
MCHENRY: I know, Rick.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: You had John McCain, who said he didn't use the Internet.
MCHENRY: And this is part of the problem.
The fact is, the guy says he doesn't even...
SANCHEZ: E-mail.
MCHENRY: ... e-mail. And, so, then you have the most technologically proficient candidate on the other side for his campaign.
And the fact is, there is that difference there. And what we have to do as conservatives is get out there and advocate our message in ways that people can relate to. And the fact is that we have to do that.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But, Patrick, you know what? But there's another problem, too. There's a -- you know what I have noticed lately? Infighting in the Republican Party. I saw it with -- with -- obviously, with Rush Limbaugh, Dick Cheney.
And now there's a new one. Just yesterday, I believe, it was Michael Steele going after Mitt Romney. In fact, I think I have the quote here. I don't know if we can put it up.
Here's what Michael Steele says about Mitt Romney. "The base rejected Mitt because of his switch on pro-life, from pro-choice to pro-life. It was the base that rejected Mitt because it had issues with Mormonism. They rejected Mitt because they thought he was back and forth and waffling on the economy."
And now apparently Mitt Romney's crew is going after Michael Steele and saying, where in the world did he get that information and why is he saying that?
It's almost like there's two forces in the Republican Party right now. How do you bring guys together, guys like you, who are cogently making an argument about something, and people who disagree with you, like a Mitch McConnell, for example, who is more of the older guard, and somebody like a Michael Steele, who is coming in and now arguing with -- with -- with Romney?
MCHENRY: Well, look, when you're -- when you're -- when you have got the numbers that we do in the House and the Senate, you have got to be very welcoming to people that want to join your party.
And the fact is, I welcome people of all stripes to the Republican Party. The fact is, though, and the fact will remain that I'm a conservative. And, so, I would hope that people in the moderate wing of the Republican Party would accept me, and, you know, my sort of view on the issue.
And I think that is something that we have to be willing to accept. I mean, if you want to be a majority party, you have to win moderates. You also have to make sure you keep your base intact, the activist base of your party, and to work together.
I mean, that's, I think, what you saw from President Obama.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
MCHENRY: You saw that in 2000 with George W. Bush. You saw that in 1992 with Bill Clinton. You saw that in 1980 with Ronald Reagan. This is a winning strategy to bring people together.
(CROSSTALK)
MCHENRY: And, Rick, you're making a great point about this, that we can't just simply have infighting and expect to win elections. We have got to get together on a broad set of issues that fit with the realities of today's world and the struggles that people have today.
SANCHEZ: Patrick McHenry, Congressman, you know, I bet you got a lot of converts today. You know, just with the Twitter following alone, I bet you, you have got a lot of people saying, hey, that guy's making a lot of sense out there. Thanks so much for being with us, sir. Appreciate it.
MCHENRY: Well, thanks, Rick. And I'm sure I will see messages on Facebook and Twitter telling me one way or the other.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: Yes, I -- we get it every day, good, bad, and indifferent. Thanks so much.
MCHENRY: Thanks so much, Rick.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He would brag constantly about his power and his control.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: A day after I told you about a Saudi judge who ruled it's OK for husbands to slap their wives over there, I'm going to tell you about an American woman who decided to take on a federal judge herself. Talk about two opposite stories.
And then there's new information about the status of Medicare and Social Security in the United States of America, how this recession could impact your retirement, yes, your retirement. And we have got the information for you.
Stay with us. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez. Got a good show going today and I got a lot of feedback from you by the way. And I always like sharing it with you. So let's do that, let's start with Myspace, if we can over here, Robert. This circular firing squad in the Republican Party is a riot to watch, LOL. And on Twitter, another comment about Miss California. This one reads, seriously, she's not that old, I'm 27 and I think I'd still remember something big like a half-naked photo shoot at age 16. Point well made. We'll continue to share.
And there's this. I want to tell you now about a federal judge who was so powerful and intimidating he thought that he could grope the women who worked for him and nobody would be able to do anything about it. Seriously. That's what they say that he said. We're talking about U.S. district judge, Samuel Kent. He was sentenced to nearly three years in prison yesterday after two women testified about years of harassment and one of them described him after she'd come back to the office several times to greet him. After all, he was her boss, as a drunken giant. A drunken giant, she said of him. She said that he would continue to do this to her, taking advantage of her until finally, she said, no more and she decided to resist and take him on. Sherman Cho of CNN affiliate KHOU in Houston has this story for you. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SHERMAN CHO, KHOU REPORTER (voice-over): Simple words that say so much.
CATHY MCBROOM, SAMUEL KENT'S FORMER CASE MANAGER: Apparently, justice is for everyone.
CHO: And sometimes no words say even more.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you concerned about your safety?
CHO: For Cathy McBroom, the harassment began in 2003. She put up with it for four years trying to avoid Kent and fearful of a powerful federal judge who also had influence with private law firms.
MCBROOM: He would brag constantly about his power and his control and just about dare anyone to try to do anything against his will. And I also clung to the hope that he would stop, because he would tell me that he was going to stop.
CHO: McBroom, now 50, is still irritated by Kent's now recanted claim that the encounters were, quote, enthusiastically consensual.
MCBROOM: Of course, it was not. There was nothing consensual about it. Whatsoever.
CHO: The ordeals, say the case manager, cost her, her marriage.
MCBROOM: It was a big conflict at home. I mean, of course my husband didn't want me to go to work every day and have to face that. And I, on the other hand, didn't want to have to give up my position.
CHO: The last incident was the most terrifying. In her court statement, McBroom said, quote, after forcing himself upon me and asking me to do unspeakable things, he told me that pleasuring him was something I owed him. That was it for me.
MCBROOM: There are some parts of it that I still haven't been able to talk to, I mean, talk about even in therapy.
CHO: Finding a lawyer to oppose a federal judge was also tricky. McBroom says she didn't even expect famed attorney Rusty Hardin would even speak to her.
RUSTY HARDIN, ATTORNEY OF CATHY MCBROOM: Y'all have seen her now. How the hell would I have said no?
(END OF VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: Unbelievable story. By the way, even though he has been sentenced to jail, Judge Kent still hasn't resigned. Democratic and republican leaders on the Texas house judiciary committee say if Kent doesn't resign or won't resign, they'll start impeachment proceedings against him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: This government does not torture people.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Dick Cheney has just brought George Bush into the debate on government interrogations and so-called torture. Did so recently. We're going to debate that with our guests. What's it mean for President Bush. Stay with us, we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: A guy with a revolutionary name, apparently, was quite a hit with our audience. We've been getting a lot of e-mails about Patrick McHenry. People say, you know we kind of like this guy. Let's go to our twitter board if we possibly can real quick and I'll show you this. That's a representative of a general consensus. The Republicans need more people like Patrick McHenry. What a great name, huh, Patrick McHenry. Sounds like Patrick Henry.
We still don't know where the story is going on our government's interrogation methods. We don't. Will there be a congressional hearing? We know that this is on the news every day. Will there be a truth commission? Will there be prosecutions, eventually? What we do know now is that Dick Cheney has now thrown President George W. Bush into this mix. And here's how he did it, on CBS' "Face the Nation."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DICK CHENEY: Yeah, I have every reason to believe that he knew -- he knew a great deal about the program. He basically authorized it. This was a presidential-level decision and the decision went to the president and he signed off on it.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: He knew everything about the program, everything is the word you just heard him use. Let's keep in mind, Mr. Cheney says the Bush administration did nothing devious, deceitful, dishonest or illegal. It's important to add that to that part of the conversation to be fair. He also says that enhanced interrogation produced information that saved, quote, perhaps hundreds of thousands of lives. Joining me now from Washington is democratic strategist Maria Cardona and republican strategist Rich Galen. Good to have you guys back.
MARIA CARDONA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Thanks Rick, good to be back.
SANCHEZ: Maria, is Dick Cheney, did he just throw George Bush under the bus if there were to be any kind of hearings or prosecutions down the line on this matter?
CARDONA: I think he certainly did, but I also think that given President Bush's low -- record-low approval ratings when he left office, the fact that he left this country almost in financial ruin, the fact that he ruined America's reputation around the world, I don't think that there's really much anyone can do, including Vice President Cheney, to further erode President Bush's brand.
SANCHEZ: But wait, we're not talking about brand. We're talking about actually being asked to testify, about being possibly even prosecuted down the line here if any of these things that some of the democrats are talking about go through.
CARDONA: Sure.
SANCHEZ: More important than brand.
CARDONA: It's not absolutely, I think it puts him in the limelight and I think that as this thing sees itself through, he's going to have to answer to some of these questions if it comes to that. But I also think going back to the topic from yesterday, the fact that Dick Cheney's talking about this reminds Americans as to why they voted for this change in the first place.
SANCHEZ: There you go again. Rich, what's -- you know what, she makes a good point. What is Dick Cheney's angle here? He has been talking a lot about this topic. Can you figure it out?
RICH GALEN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, I think it started out, frankly, with CNN. You guys started this whole thing on a Sunday morning when John King interviewed Vice President Cheney. It was during that interview that the vice president said, I don't remember the exact phrase, but that he didn't think that America was as safe now as it was under the Bush administration. Or words to that effect.
SANCHEZ: That's fair. That's pretty much what he said. You're absolutely right.
GALEN: And what happened from that is, I think, that the Obama administration, frankly, in a fit of peak, released those memos, not understanding what the downstream effects might be, and that's how we got into this thing.
SANCHEZ: Maria, speaking of memos, what do you make of him now saying, look, release everything! I want everything out there. I want the American people to know exactly what George Bush and I did during the last eight years.
GALEN: That's under the control of the -- the ability to declassify or classify is solely the domain of the president of the United States.
SANCHEZ: But the fact that --
GALEN: -- other people can -- a former vice president can't arbitrarily declassify things.
SANCHEZ: No, no, but the fact that he's saying, I want it out there, makes you wonder, why is he saying that.
GALEN: I think he's saying it, frankly, because he believes it makes the case that America has not been attacked again since 9/11. That the -- whatever the enhanced techniques or whatever phrase somebody wants to concoct for that had the desired effect, which was to keep America safe.
SANCHEZ: What do you think Maria?
CARDONA: I think that's completely absurd. I think that all of that is an effort to deflect and to distract from trying to really take the Bush administration officials who broke the law, threw the Geneva Convention out the window to try to bring them to what exactly happened and hold them accountable. I think they're trying to deflect and distract from that effort.
GALEN: Hold a second, Rick. I think what my friend Maria is trying to do is if we're talking about deflecting and distracting is do a two-bank shot to deflect against Nancy Pelosi and the other democratic leaders in congress who have not been able to figure out the appropriate response to, what did you know and when did you know it.
SANCHEZ: Well you know Maria, he makes a good point. Rich, a CIA document just last week says several top democrats including Pelosi and Rockefeller were briefed about waterboarding. Pelosi denies it. Now, apparently, former Senator Bob Graham has come out. Bob Graham, though, Rich, he's a good guy. And as most people would agree, a real honest guy. He's saying, I don't have any recollection of being briefed on waterboarding or any other forms of interrogation. In fact, there it is. He says, or Abu Zubaydah being subjected to them. This is former Senator Bob Graham who doesn't really have a dog in this fight anymore.
GALEN: I think you have to take these people at their word. If he doesn't remember, he doesn't remember, that doesn't mean it didn't happen, it just means he doesn't remember that it happened.
SANCHEZ: But Maria, these guys are the dance complicit, is Pelosi complicit?
CARDONA: No, look, again, you are talking about breaking the law, breaking the Geneva Convention and democrats had nothing to do with formulating this policy, with coming up with the idea, and with trying to justify it through these legal memos that, no pun intended, try to torture legal assumptions and legal arguments to make the case that it was legal when in fact it was not. And this is what the American people were sick of and we're sick of the abuses of this Bush administration.
SANCHEZ: Rich, you get the last word.
GALEN: I'm not an attorney. I'm not sure if Maria is or not, so I don't know what was legal and what was not legal. But I do know that government lawyers under the color of authority doing their jobs made the determination that these enhanced techniques were, in fact, even if not appropriate, were certainly legal and the people that had the responsibility of keeping us straight -- keeping us safe operated under that theory. And I think that they should be -- that should be carved out from this whole thing and let the political chips fall where they may. SANCHEZ: And the nation seems to be somewhat split on it. Maria and Rich, so are you. We thank you both. Great guests. Enjoyed the conversation.
CARDONA: Thank you Rick.
SANCHEZ: That's the man known as Ivan the Terrible you're seeing right there. He's arriving in Germany to face Nazi war crime charges. Almost looks like he's in a coma, doesn't it? But we've got pictures that might refute this picture. What's going on here? We're going to break it down.
Also, a train carrying coal jumps the tracks in Missouri, forcing rail traffic to shut down. What a mess.
And then the status of social security is changing. There's new information that might affect your retirement. That's why you need to stick around. We're going to share this with you, we'll be right back.
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SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez. A little hoarse today, but nonetheless, no worse for the wear. In the world headquarters of CNN, you know there's always a wise aleck out there, there's always a comedian in the crowd. And amongst you who watches this show everyday there's always one with a comment like this one right here on Twitter. Take it one of you guys, if you possibly could. Krisspyone says, "When I win "the apprentice," I hope one of my duties will be to review Miss California's photos very carefully." That's good. I like that. I like a little comedy once in a while.
Justice can move slow, but in John Demjanjuk's case, it doesn't stop moving. We've been all over this story and it's always happening during our hour. Roll the video if you would hear Dan. That is an ambulance and that is the prison in Munich, Germany. And the man in the back is accused Nazi concentration camp guard once known as Ivan the Terrible. That's John Demjanjuk. His extradition from the United States to Germany is now complete and he'll be tried there, charged with helping murder nearly 30,000 Jews during World War II. Here's another look now at the man as he arrived in Munich. You remember John Demjanjuk was tried in Israel during the 1980s, but he got off citing mistaken identity. Demjanjuk has always denied being a Nazi camp guard. And by the way, we have other pictures of him that don't seem to show him in an almost comatose state. Those pictures like the ones we shared with you yesterday that were released by the justice department actually show a smiling and laughing Demjanjuk. We'll continue to work this difference out for you.
Also this, we all heard the warnings that Medicare was going to run into some trouble in the future, right? Guess what, the future is now. New government figures released just a few minutes ago show that Medicare will start paying out more than it collects this year. This year. And it will be completely out of money, insolvent, broke, bankrupt, whatever you want to call it in eight years. That's what the government just said. The government says social security isn't very far behind. It's supposed to start paying more than it collects in seven years and run out of money in 2037. All of the problems made worse in the past year because of the recession. Bottom line, you might have to rethink some of your retirement plans, according to the government.
Who's going to clean up this mess? We can joke because nobody got hurt, but look at this scene in eastern Missouri today. It's a long freight train, 142 cars, all filled with coal, headed from Wyoming to Illinois. Somehow, three dozen of those cars jumped the tracks. Look at that massive -- it's almost like an accordion effect you can see there. The derailment happened before dawn today along the banks of a Missouri river and we're told, thank goodness, that no one was hurt.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was holding on to the hope that he would stop. Because he would tell me that he was going to stop.
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SANCHEZ: Amazing the influence of a federal judge over employees and how it can suppress abuse. One woman fought back and won. Ashleigh Banfield has been looking into this story. It's the kind of story that makes a lot of women out there, and men by the way, and fathers, feel real good about this country. Ashleigh is going to join us to break this down for us in just a bit.
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SANCHEZ: Here we go. Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez. A judge is going to jail. It's a federal judge as you saw in that story we brought you just a little while ago. This is huge because I'm talking about the case where sex crime charges were filed against -- think about it. Do you know how powerful sitting federal judges are in this country? This is the first time that these kind of charges have ever been brought against a judge. Sex crime charges. That's not directly what sent him to prison, by the way, but it certainly is what got things started. Let me bring in one of my best friends and one of the people I trust most to talk about something like this, Ashleigh Banfield, anchor of "In Session." Ashleigh, how are you doing?
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, ANCHOR, IN SESSION: Hi, Rick.
SANCHEZ: You know I want to show you something. This is what she said when she was asked by reporters about what this man was doing to her. Let's listen to this together.
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MCBROOM: He would brag constantly about his power and his control.
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SANCHEZ: Brag about his power and his control. Man, that nails it, doesn't it? BANFIELD: Well, I think what really nailed it was the fact that apparently he was groping women's genitals and breasts. That's a bit more serious.
SANCHEZ: The fact that this guy was not only doing that but he knew he was doing it and it was like a control issue with him that he had over them. I mean, that's the quintessential case of these kind of bullies.
BANFIELD: For his defense, and he didn't need one it turned out because he ended up admitting to lying and cutting a deal which dumped all those sexy charges against him and just nailed him on the obstruction, which is very serious for a federal judge. But for his part, he claims he's an alcoholic, bipolar, depressed, etc. That that might have all played into all of this. He's asking that it also plays into whether in fact he can be considered disabled and continue to draw on that near $170,000 a year salary.
SANCHEZ: Let me ask you something. Something that caught my eye in that report. When she said, I had a hard time finding an attorney who would take on a sitting federal judge. Take us through that. What does she mean about that?
BANFIELD: By the way, that attorney that she did end up --
SANCHEZ: Rusty Hardin. A good guy.
BANFIELD: Remember him? Anna Nicole Smith.
SANCHEZ: Right.
BANFIELD: Remember, screw you, Rusty, she said from the stand. I love Rusty Hardin. And he's great, by the way. He's one of the better ones. It would be difficult. You are going up against a titan. If you lose, God forbid you end up in his courtroom again, baby.
SANCHEZ: Really? What do they do? What can a judge do to a lawyer? Would he have to leave the market and go work somewhere else?
BANFIELD: How many objections would be sustained, I don't know? No, I don't think he'd have to leave the market. It's all a bit intangible Rick, but I don't think you want to piss off those guys who basically determine your fate.
SANCHEZ: Hey, let me ask you about the case in and of itself. Why couldn't they get him on the original sexual abuse. Why did they have to go around and get him on that he died about sexual abuse. Why does that happen so often?
BANFIELD: They may have. They never ended up actually getting to trial. Just on the eve of trial he ended up securing that deal with prosecutors whereby they would drop five of the sexy charges and just go ahead straight up with the obstruction of justice. You and I both know from covering Clinton and everything else down the road, that the lying sometimes is a lot worse -- the cover-up is a lot worse than the crime. In this case, I don't know Rick, that the cover up was worse than the crime. These crimes were pretty bad. Let me tell you, but obstruction is terrible for a federal judge.
SANCHEZ: Stinks both ways. Ashleigh Banfield, great talking to you.
BANFIELD: I love talking to you.
SANCHEZ: Wolf Blitzer standing by now to talk to me as well. He's going to tell me what's going on in Washington. Wolf, this social security thing that they just announced and the Medicare thing is kind of wild, isn't it?
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Yeah you know these numbers are not encouraging at all. Everybody was bracing for some bad numbers. These are a lot worse than so many of the experts thought they would be. The future of social security, Medicare. This is where so much of the federal budget goes. What are the changes that are going to be needed down the road? Retirement age for example, will it have to be raised in order to keep social security and Medicare solvent? We've got a top White House official, Melody Barnes. She's going to be joining us live Rick. We're going to talk about what may or may not be on the president's agenda. A lot more of that coming up. I'm really happy by the way your voice is sounding a lot better today than it did 24 hours ago.
SANCHEZ: The matza balls baby.
BLITZER: The hot tea with lemon or honey or whatever.
SANCHEZ: Have Miss Blitzer send me some more. They worked so well.
BLITZER: Good.
SANCHEZ: Thanks Wolf. We're going to have more of your feedback and boy there's a bunch of it in just a little bit. Stay with us. We're coming right back, don't go away.
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SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez. All right let's get to you. Ready, let's start on twitter if we possibly can. First, a story about the judge. Boy, not a lot of fans of this judge in our audience. That judge is a disgusting man. I'm glad someone spoke out against little man with big power. Let's go to Facebook and take Sam Flowers at the top. Regarding this harassing judge case, it just goes to show that no one is above the law and that includes those whose sole purpose in life is upholding the law like judges, lawyers and cops.
Let's go back to twitter, if we possibly can. And there, it seems that Trump condones breaking contracts, lying and discrimination without consequences. Ashleigh Banfield is such a great guest. Her commentary on crime and court cases is A plus. There you go Ash. Here's another guy that's a-plus. Wolf Blitzer in The Situation Room. BLITZER: Thanks very much Rick. Happening now, new reason to fear you'll be broke when you retire. The Obama administration confronts a disturbing report on the future of social security and Medicare.
Plus, doctors and nurses protesting against the health care system. And it gets them thrown out of the United States Senate.
And why your luggage is worth more than a billion dollars to the airlines. The bottom line on bag fees and whether flyers are being ripped off. I'm Wolf Blitzer in CNN's command center for breaking news, politics and extraordinary reports from around the world. You're in THE SITUATION ROOM.
