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Roland Burris Under Fire; U.S. Army Focuses on Suicide Prevention; Lawsuit: Texas Town 'Robbing' People; Rove vs. Carville; School Empowerment for Kids
Aired May 27, 2009 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROLAND BURRIS: I was interesting in being appointed to the seat.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): The Roland Burris transcripts are out, and they are damaging.
BURRIS: I did not carry faith (ph). I was not a willing party to any alleged pay-to-play scheme.
SANCHEZ: We'll compare what he said then to what he's saying now.
BURRIS: Did I want to be appointed to the Senate seat? Yes, I did.
SANCHEZ: By the way, how's his quid pro quo different from what other politicians do? Karl Rove and James Carville, mano a mano, wow.
Yet another Texas county accused of cheating the poor out of their meager belongings. We investigate.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To me, that's just outright theft; highway robbery.
SANCHEZ: And this...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're under arrest.
SANCHEZ: That's a trooper arresting a paramedic who's got a patient in his ambulance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, calm down.
SANCHEZ: You think maybe he could have picked a better time to feed his ego? Just asking. What are you asking, on this, your national conversation, for Wednesday, May 27, 2009?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: And hello again, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez.
And this is what the national conversation is about today. Did Roland Burris make a deal with impeached Governor Blagojevich to get Barack Obama's vacated Senate seat? Now, this would be crazy, wouldn't it? Because, remember, this was what Blagojevich was busted for in the first place? Remember when we brought you the story that he was trying to sell that seat?
And Roland Burris has said to reporters, has said to the U.S. Congress and the U.S. Senate and to the Illinois State House, which was dealing with the impeachment proceedings at the time -- we reported this -- that he did not -- did not broker any type of deal.
Well, guess what? FBI transcripts are out, and they now reveal that he did appear to offer Blagojevich something in exchange for that coveted Senate seat that he wanted. So, did he lie? And, if he did lie, why did he lie? And was it because he wanted this job that bad?
This is amazing. Here's -- we're going to take you -- I'm going to take you through this whole bevy and litany of information. But what I first want to do is, I want you to hear Senator Roland Burris trying to answer those questions that I just posed this morning.
Here's what he tells reporters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ROLAND BURRIS (D), ILLINOIS: Release of transcripts by the U.S. prosecutor's office shows that I was truthful when I testified that at no time did I take any part in pay-to-play while lobbying for the Senate seat.
Did I want to be appointed to the Senate seat? Yes, I did. I told everyone who would listen that I was interested in being appointed to the seat. Did I try to buy the seat? Never.
While I wanted to keep my commitment to make a personal contribution, I did not, because of the perception of impropriety that might arise. Did I commit perjury? No. Have I stated the truth all along, before and after learning my conversations with the governor's brother were being taped? I also said I wanted the tapes and the transcripts to become public.
I expect the media and the public to review every word of the transcript in context. And, at the end of the day, I expect both to judge me fairly and to acknowledge I did not curry favor, was not a willing party to any alleged pay-to-play scheme, and I did not lie to anyone about the events leading to my appointment.
It is my belief the transcripts help set the record straight and should settle this issue once and for all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: So, he says that he didn't even talk about the exchange with the governor where the governor would give him any kind of consideration for the Senate seat, and he in return would do fund- raising or offer anything for the governor, not that he didn't do it, but that they didn't even have the conversation about it.
Senator Burris, who's the subject of an ethics investigation, is described on this FBI wire tape as so. I'm going to read it to you.
Ready?
Burris: "So, let -- it is -- and so, if I put on a fund-raiser now?"
Blagojevich: "Mm-hmm."
"And I -- you know, I think it would have something -- this is what I have been talking to Fred about. It has so many negative connotations, that Burris is trying to buy the appointment."
Blagojevich: "Yes?"
Burris: "From the governor."
Blagojevich: "Yes?"
Burris: "For the Senate seat. I mean, I'm a high-profile person."
Blagojevich: "Yes."
Burris: "You know, and -- and -- so, I'm now, because I have been just holding off calling you."
Blagojevich: "Yes."
Burris: "And I'm trying to figure out how to deal with this and still be in the consideration for the appointment."
Blagojevich: "I hear you. No, I hear you."
Burris: "And, if I do that, I guarantee you that that will get out and people say, oh, Burris is doing a fund-raiser, and then Rod and I both going to catch hell."
Blagojevich: "Mm-hmm."
Burris: "And if I do that, if I do get appointed, that means I bought it."
Blagojevich: "Mmm."
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: He goes on to say he can write a check himself. And then he reemphasizes that he could have it in hand, write a check and have it in hand for the governor by December 15.
Reporters, as you might imagine, are perplexed by this, by how different Burris' version of events is from what the transcripts seem to indicate.
So, at this point, they descend on Burris. Here now, from Chicago, is that confrontation. I want you to watch it. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUESTION: You still gave the date that you planned to give money. You said, OK, I will do something on a personal level on this date.
BURRIS: But after -- after I hung up the phone, I said, I can't even do that. That was on November 13. I didn't give him any money and I did not raise any money. I did not.
(CROSSTALK)
QUESTION: Why didn't you reveal these conversations to...
BURRIS: Because...
(CROSSTALK)
BURRIS: ... was asked. It was never asked.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: He was never asked? We're going to do a little checking on that as well.
Actually, Senator, you were asked. Let me help you here. You were asked at the Illinois State House impeachment hearings. That would be January of this year, if you want to check. In fact, we have the tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM DURKIN (R), ILLINOIS STATE REPRESENTATIVE: At any time, were you directly or indirectly aware -- aware of a quid pro quo with the governor for the appointment of this vacant Senate seat?
BURRIS: No, sir.
DURKIN: Prior to his arrest, did you have any conversations with the governor about your desire to be appointed to the seat?
BURRIS: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: And there's more.
We found this nugget from mid-February. This is the senator. He's at a news conference. It's in Peoria. He's explaining his conversation with the governor's brother and aide.
Listen to how he says just the opposite again of what the transcripts seem to indicate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BURRIS: What did I tell his brother? I'm interested in the Senate seat. I cannot contribute any money to you, nor can I raise any money to you.
I mean, I had the foresight to tell his brother that, because I thought it would be a conflict of interests.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: If you have questions, well, we do, too. And we're going to have some answers for you on this controversial story.
Rick Pearson from "The Chicago Trib" is going to join us with the skinny on Burris. And then I'm also going to talk to Bob Edgar. And he's an expert on campaign finance. And the question for him is broader. It's about the commonality of this deal with what other politicians do around the country, other potential quid pro quos.
I'm interested. And I think you should be, too.
Texas officers pulling motorists over and taking cash in, this is despicable, but they say it's perfectly legal. How do they sleep at night? Well, that's another question.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KARL ROVE, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER TO PRESIDENT BUSH: But, look, there were people who did not, and a lot of them were in the leadership of the Democratic Party, who said they wanted Bush to fail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Karl Rove in defense of Bush, James Carville in defense of Obama. Now, if you watch nothing else today, watch the exchange between these two coming up in 20 minutes. This is good, folks.
And then this is your national conversation, which, by the way, you can join in on by joining my blog at CNN.com/ricksanchez. I will see you there. We will be right back.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, Rick, this is Eric (ph) from Atlanta, Georgia.
I have not trusted that senator since he got put into that position. I think both parties are broken. And I think we need to start all over again in the Senate.
Peace.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: All right. We can blame President Obama, I suppose, for all of this controversy over Senator Roland Burris. If he had not won the November election, the seamier side of Illinois politics probably would have gone undisturbed.
Rick Pearson knows that, political writer for "The Chicago Tribune," joins us live from the Illinois capital of Springfield.
Rick, good to see you again.
(CROSSTALK)
RICK PEARSON, POLITICAL REPORTER, "THE CHICAGO TRIBUNE": Thanks, Rick.
It seems like -- it seems like every time I see you, there's another evolution of the Roland Burris story.
SANCHEZ: It's amazing, isn't it?
And in our studios of New York now, Bob Edgar. He's the president of -- chief executive and officer of Common Cause.
Rick, let me begin with you.
I don't know if there's a smoking gun here, but the fact that he now reveals -- I'm just -- I'm looking back over my notes here. He goes on to say that he wrote a check, himself, and reemphasizes it somewhere in the transcript that he can have it delivered by December 15.
Well, my goodness, that does fly in the face of what he had been saying all along, isn't it?
PEARSON: Well, you know, we -- first, we have this, you know, House committee hearing where he says, I only had limited contact with Blagojevich aides.
Then he files an affidavit acknowledging that he had discussions with Rob Blagojevich, the governor's brother and fund-raiser, but never gave any money. Then you have that clip from the press conference in Peoria, where he discloses that he tried to raise money, but nobody would give any.
Now, with the -- with the FBI transcripts here, you have Burris saying that he thinks it would be wrong to do this, but also goes on to discuss various ways that he might be able to help Governor Blagojevich, but maybe joining another fund-raiser, so his name isn't prominent, or even having his own attorney, his law partner, give money in the law partner's name.
SANCHEZ: You know, when you hear someone, sometimes yourself, trying to talk yourself into something that you know you shouldn't do, that you know is either unethical or is illegal -- we have all done it, by the way -- we have all been there -- isn't that what you're hearing here in some of these conversations? He knows this ain't right. He doesn't really want to do it, but he kind of feels like he has to, and it sounds like he's willing.
PEARSON: Well, he certainly wants that Senate seat very badly, and he doesn't want to do anything that might offend Rod Blagojevich and -- and ruin his chances to get that Senate seat...
SANCHEZ: But there's a price...
(CROSSTALK)
PEARSON: ... even though at that time...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But there is a price for the Senate seat. The Senate seat had to come with something for Blagojevich. I mean, that's all but established at this point, isn't there?
PEARSON: Yes.
But at the point of this conversation, that hadn't been established. This -- this transcript goes back to November 13. And -- and this was part of the basically six weeks that federal agents were running a wiretap with Blagojevich and his brother and the campaign.
SANCHEZ: Well, let's be clear about this, and let's be fair about this. From what I can tell, this is not an illegal exchange. It may be an unethical, it may be a dishonest exchange, certainly in terms of the stories he's given to the media and the stories we're hearing there. But you can give money to somebody for their campaign, right?
PEARSON: Oh, absolutely.
And -- and, you know, in Illinois, there are no limits on what you can give to somebody for their campaign. That's why you heard so much about the big numbers in that Blagojevich indictment.
SANCHEZ: Well, that is exactly why I want to bring in our next guest from Common Cause.
It makes me think and I think the viewers who are watching us have this conversation right now are listening to this and coming away with the impression that this is just the way it's done. If you want to be an ambassador to some country, you got to give a big campaign contribution to the guy who will be president and can possibly appoint you.
If you're in a city council somewhere and you want to make sure your project gets appointed, you got to give a fund-raiser or -- or give money to a poli -- this is the way it's done.
BOB EDGAR, PRESIDENT & CEO, COMMON CAUSE: Rick, this may be the way it's done, but it's wrong. It is unethical. And if, in fact, the senator lied, then I think he's in more trouble than we're talking about today.
But I think there's a systemic problem out there, and that is money and ego rule the day in Washington and in state capitals. And we know about this senator because it's on tape. We don't know about all those other pay-to-play opportunities that are out there. And money is a corrosive influence in Washington right now.
And we need to move away from this pay-to-play activity that you see playing out in this particular incident.
SANCHEZ: But how? I mean, look, I want to get elected. The only way that I can get elected is if I raise enough funds to be able to buy commercials and ads, right?
And the only way I can get that money is to glad-hand from people who will pay me. And are we supposed to have an expectation that those people who give me money are not going to ever want anything from me? Because, I'm sorry, that just seems foolhardy.
EDGAR: Those people are buying access.
We saw in Connecticut that the state legislature, after the former governor was put in jail, 75 percent of those running for the state legislature used Common Cause's public financing system, and 81 percent of them got elected, including a 24-year-old college student who now is serving in the state legislature.
In that setting, where public financing is in place, you take all that money out of the system, you make it a voluntary public opportunity. And the senator -- the other senator from Illinois, Senator Dick Durbin, has a major piece of legislation before the Senate co-sponsored by Arlen Specter. It's called the Fair Elections Now Act, and it would provide for House and Senate races to move towards public financing, where some of these special interests couldn't influence the outcome of the elections.
SANCHEZ: But -- but let me ask you the question I know our viewers are thinking right now, OK? Because I -- I -- because I Twitter every day and I'm on MySpace and Facebook and iReport, I'm in conversations with these folks every day.
And if I told them right now that Bob Edgar's on TV right now talking to Rick Sanchez on CNN, and he says, you should pay for these campaigns, that we're going to take more money out of your taxes for you to fund the campaigns of these politicians...
EDGAR: Rick...
SANCHEZ: ... you know what they would tell you, Bob Edgar? They would tell you you're full of it.
EDGAR: Well, I think they need to know that they already pay. They pay in higher gas taxes. They pay in higher medical costs.
In just -- since 2000 to 2008, the medical industry has put $4 billion into just two things, lobbying and campaign contributions. Many people want health care reform this year, and the table's already tainted with all that money.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: You're saying it's more expensive to let the folks pay them or fund-raise for them and then boost what they make us pay those folks than it would be for us directly to pay the politicians.
EDGAR: That's exactly right.
The new head of Homeland Security, the former governor of Arizona, is the only governor that used public financing. And when she got elected, she was not influenced by the special interests, the energy companies or the insurance companies. She had to raise 2,000 five-dollar bills to qualify. And she said it was the first time she had a fund-raiser in a poor neighborhood.
Her opponent who chose not to take it, every time he raised a couple hundred thousand dollars, her public money went up.
By the way, there's one other thing that needs to happen.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
EDGAR: We need to ask those in the public media to lower of the cost of those television commercials that you talked about.
SANCHEZ: Who, me?
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: But, you know, there's something circuitous about this.
I mean, Rick Pearson come on and we talk about what the politician did with the other politician to get the money, and then we come back and we talk about why we have a system where the politician has to get the moneys to be able to get elected.
It's almost like we're hitting ourselves over the head with hammers in this country, as we look at the way the system works, and one wonders why there is no reform. Maybe -- maybe -- maybe there should be.
Guys, we're out of time. Thanks again.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: I enjoyed the conversation. I'm sure a lot of our viewers did, too.
EDGAR: Nice to be with.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are under arrest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are under arrest. You get in there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: This is crazy. You have got to see this. Why would a state trooper get into a scuffle with a paramedic while a patient is waiting for that paramedic to treat her, to do his job? I mean, he couldn't wait? Is this about ego, or what? You decide.
Also, Fort Campbell shuts down for three days. The reason, soldiers committing suicide. What does that say to you, that soldiers in this country are committing suicides at record rates? Tell me what you think on Twitter, Facebook or MySpace during this break. And I will talk about it on the other side.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, Rick. I live in Chicago.
And I accepted Roland Burris as a lame-duck senator. In and out, that's all.
Thank you.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: We got a couple of reactions from you on this one. This is MySpace, I think, Robert. Let's go there, if we possibly.
Welcome back, by the way, everybody. We're here in the world headquarters of CNN.
"Obviously, Senator Burris never learned anything from watching 'Goodfellas.' Never say anything on tape." That was Jimmy "The Gent" Burke, by the way.
And let's flip it around. We got another one I want to show you. This is on -- this is on Twitter. And right there in the middle, Rob, Freaky Fran, old friend, Freaky Fran. She says, "Our soldiers are wore out from combat duty."
Interesting point, as we approach this next story I want to share with you. The Army hates this statistic that I am going to share with you. It's 64 soldiers. That's the number of Army men and women who have either killed themselves or believed to have killed themselves. And that's just this year, folks -- 64 is a staggering number of suicides in the Army. It's the most ever in this short span of time, by the way.
One major Army base is doing something about this. Fort Campbell is a huge post on the Kentucky-Tennessee state line. Today, Fort Campbell is shutting down, no training, no deployment for three days, we are told. Commanders are determined to stop this awful trend and are laser-focused, they say, on suicide prevention. On the phone from Fort Campbell, joining us right now is a senior commander with the 101st Airborne Division. This is Brigadier General Stephen Townsend.
General, thanks so much for being with us, sir.
BRIG. GEN. STEPHEN TOWNSEND, SENIOR COMMANDER, FORT CAMPBELL: Thank you for having me.
SANCHEZ: We appreciate you being here.
I understand you spoke today to every man and woman at Fort Campbell. What did you tell them?
TOWNSEND: Well, I didn't -- I tried. Didn't get nearly all of them. I'm speaking to one last brigade tomorrow.
But I spoke to about five-and-a-half brigades worth of soldiers today. And I gave them basically four main points, that suicide at Fort Campbell is bad for soldiers, families and our nation, and it's got to stop.
I told them that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. No matter how bad it seems today, it's going to be better tomorrow. Don't take away your tomorrows.
I told them that Screaming Eagles of the 101st Airborne Division don't quit. They didn't quit in 1944 at Bastogne surrounded by five German divisions in the snow, and we don't quit now, and that every soldier matters. Every soldier is accountable for himself, his teammates. And their leaders, from corporal to general, care about them.
That's what I told them today, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Do you think, General, that the lack of a focused-like- a-laser-beam policy being handed to you fellows in the military, who have done your jobs admirably -- and we are all so proud of you -- but it seems like the message you're getting from above has been confusing as to what is success and what is achievement and when do we win and when isn't it a win.
Does that type of confusion cause this kind of mental instability in soldiers as to, what have I done or what do I need to do?
TOWNSEND: Well, Rick, here's what I think.
I think that we really don't know what causes this. If we knew what causes these suicides, we -- we would do -- take some action to try to stop it. I don't think that the kind of muddled guidance, if that's what you think we're getting, I don't believe that that's what we're getting, but if...
SANCHEZ: Yes.
TOWNSEND: I don't think that has a big play in it. (CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Well, but let me -- but let me -- let me amplify my argument here.
TOWNSEND: OK.
SANCHEZ: We didn't get this as much in other wars. I mean, it seemed there was a -- there was a focus in those wars. And there is not a focus in these wars as much.
And we are getting these problems with soldiers coming back like this. That's why I'm just curious, sir, and I'm kind of making the tie as to whether we're asking the soldiers to do almost too much.
TOWNSEND: Yes.
Well, clearly, the repeated deployments have -- have some role in this. They have a factor in it. However, I would point out that only probably about 60 percent of our suicides, probable and confirmed suicides, were of deployed soldiers. The others were soldiers who had never been deployed. So, I don't think that's the overwhelming factor. I think it is a factor.
SANCHEZ: You know, it's great talking to you, sir. And I appreciate, we appreciate, every single thing that you're doing.
Is there anything we can do? As citizens of the United States, is there anything we can do for these guys and gals that maybe we can help?
TOWNSEND: Well, yes, sure, absolutely. I think number one is what I still see everywhere I go across this land, is to continue to show the support of the American people for what these soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines are doing for their nation...
SANCHEZ: Yes.
TOWNSEND: ... and every day in harm's way. Keep that up. I think that's probably the most important thing.
SANCHEZ: They need that. And that's good advice. And we will be happy and I'm sure everybody listening will be happy to, in fact, honor that.
General, thank you, sir, Stephen Townsend, for taking time to talk to us.
TOWNSEND: Thanks, Rick.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES CARVILLE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I don't buy -- I don't buy that.
ROVE: I didn't interrupt you. So, let me finish making my comment about Obama, if it's OK with you.
CARVILLE: OK. Arkansas is in the South.
ROVE: Good.
CARVILLE: Thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
ROVE: A in geography. You did well in geography.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Oil, I want you to meet vinegar, and watch what happens when they come together. They don't mix, right? Well, this is explosive. That's why, after I air it, I am going to put this on my blog. That's at CNN.com/ricksanchez. You will see it there as well.
Also, a high school student beats another student, and it's caught on camera. We are going to tell you why the victim didn't tell anyone about this for months.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Could you imagine doing something like this? Imagine -- imagine taking a beating and never telling anybody about it.
This is what happened to a 15-year-old who attended a school near Atlanta. Now, why would he keep something like this silent? First, let's watch this video together, video from last December. It just recently surfaced. We got it this morning.
And look at the right side. It's a teenager seen allegedly punching, kicking, and jumping all over this 15-year-old boy named Zach Cielo. Somebody rolled a cell phone camera on this brutal scene, and that's how police were able to get their hands on it. I mean, look at this -- a stomp, a kick, a jump. That's a kid hitting another kid, a fellow human being.
We're told the teenager kicking Zach is now facing two felonies, as well it seems he should be. Zach's mother, by the way, is taking her son out of the country. She's going to take him so far away that he can't finish his schooling here, but will somewhere else.
Douglas County school superintendent Don Remillard says -- and we quote -- "I was very saddened to see the attack of our student on the video. We will not tolerate this type of behavior on our campuses."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's just a theft, highway robbery.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Highway robbery. Can you believe that we have found another example of another Texas town where police are accused of stealing money from motorists? And the D.A. there says it's all legal.
We'll investigate for you.
And then something strange occurred in Oklahoma that I want you to see. It's a state trooper pulling over a paramedic because he was in his way, on the road. Oh, and by the way, there's a patient inside the ambulance waiting to be treated while these two guys scuffle.
I'll explain.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Hey, Robert, what do you say? Let's check the Twitter board real quick. Let's go to the very top one there.
Miami Dog Trainer says, "Children are and have always been vicious. It is raising them to think differently that makes us more than an animal."
And then Delano Goodin says, "You know, the teenager hitting Zach should be investigated."
All right, let's stop there. We'll share more with you in just a little bit.
Welcome back. Rick Sanchez here.
We were blown away from all those reports about that Texas town. You remember this story we brought you just a couple weeks ago, the Texas town where police are accused of shaking down drivers for cash?
Well, how about this? We found another one. This time it's in Alice, Texas.
The police department and people who work there getting rich taking tons of money from drug runners, they say, or illegal immigrants, or people who are just passing through the town that they think are good marks. Hard to believe, right?
Here's the bizarre part. It might not be illegal, which I guess would make it legal, right?
Watch this report from CNN's Gary Tuchman.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It literally paid to be loyal to this man, the former district attorney in Jim Wells County, Texas, who was extremely generous to three of his secretaries, who he says watched his back.
JOE FRANK GARZA, FORMER DISTRICT ATTORNEY: They were my eyes and ears in the community. TUCHMAN: How generous was Joe Frank Garza? He admits that for years he wrote checks totaling hundreds of thousands of dollars that likely at least doubled their salaries.
Much of that money came from U.S. Highway 281 near Alice, Texas, where very often drug couriers, illegal immigrants and the people transporting them would rather escape into the brush than ever see their vehicles again. And that's just fine with the sheriff's department in Jim Wells County. Deputies bring the vehicles to this lot, auction them off, and the department keeps the money. Oscar Lopez is a longtime county sheriff.
(on camera): If you didn't get that money, what would happen to your department?
SHERIFF OSCAR LOPEZ, JIM WELLS COUNTY, TEXAS: We'd be on bicycles, riding on bicycles. And I'm not saying that in fun. It's the truth.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Under Texas law cops are permitted to seize certain valuables during investigations of possible serious crimes, and their bosses are then permitted to spend the forfeiture money for law enforcement purposes. As for the D.A., his office also gets a cut of the money.
All of this raises this question: doesn't this create an enormous temptation to seize valuables from citizens who are not suspected of serious crimes?
JUAN HINOJOSA, TEXAS STATE SENATOR: To me, it's just like theft. Highway robbery.
TUCHMAN: Juan Hinojosa is a Texas state senator. He was driving down U.S. 281 in Brooks County not far from the city of Alice. Police gave him a warning, not a ticket, for leaving and having windows too darkly tinted. He said the accusations were untrue.
HINOJOSA: The purpose of the stop was trying to see if they could find cash in my truck. One of the things that they were doing is profiling people.
TUCHMAN: Check out this police videotape. Another Latino man, this one not a state senator, stopped on 281 because his front license plate was on his dashboard, not on the bumper.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Large amounts of currency in the car?
TUCHMAN: Javier Gonzalez had about $10,000, most of it, he says, to pay for a funeral and a tombstone for a dying aunt. He was charged with money laundering, and deputies confiscated his cash. His attorney said there was no evidence of such a crime and sued.
MALCOM GREENSTEIN, GONZALEZ'S ATTORNEY: It happened on a highway, and we were robbed. And it just so happened that people had uniforms.
TUCHMAN: The county D.A. decided to settle the case. Gonzalez got his money back and $110,000 in damages. But the sheriff continues to stand by his men.
GARZA: They did everything correctly, sir.
TUCHMAN: So why did the D.A. agree to the settlement?
GARZA: I said, "Look, it's taking too much time. Let's just get rid of it."
TUCHMAN: Even without the money, Garza's office took in hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. He got 30 percent of the county's forfeiture money.
GARZA: When I was there, there wasn't a single item in that office, down to the last pen there, that was paid with county money. It was all forfeiture money.
TUCHMAN: Under the law a D.A. can use his share of the seized assets for, quote, "official purposes." So that's what makes an accusation by this man, who beat Joe Frank Garza in his re-election bid, so notable.
ARMANDO BARRERA, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, JIM WELLS COUNTY: Most of the money that was used by him was for three secretaries.
TUCHMAN (on camera): Most of his forfeiture money?
BARRERA: Most of it. It was approximately $3.8 million.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Over an eight-year period. It's a strong accusation...
GARZA: I saw nothing wrong with it.
TUCHMAN: ... which the former D.A. doesn't dispute, although he does say he also gave smaller amounts to other employees.
(on camera): The new D.A. tells us that the records show that you gave hundreds of thousands of dollars over eight years to three of your secretaries.
GARZA: Could be.
TUCHMAN: And do you think that's proper?
GARZA: As far as I'm concerned, it was. No. Take it back. As far as I'm concerned, it is.
TUCHMAN: The secretaries who worked with the old district attorney no longer work in the district attorney's office. The new D.A. has new secretaries. And he says they won't be getting extra pay from the forfeiture fund, no matter how good they are.
(voice-over): We were not able to talk to any of those secretaries on camera. We did ask their old boss if giving them all that money is truly an official purpose as envisioned under state law.
GARZA: There's no definition. Nobody can tell you what an official purpose is.
TUCHMAN: Indeed, even the new D.A. agrees the law is ambiguous, and that's the main reason why there's so much controversy with forfeitures here and elsewhere in the Lone Star State.
Gary Tuchman, CNN, Alice, Texas.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: And obviously it's a story we're going to stay on top of. And if there are other towns in Texas that are doing something similar, as somebody on Twitter just said to me moments ago, stealing is stealing. It only has one name.
We'll look into it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, wait!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: A paramedic is trying to treat a patient, but prevented from doing so because of a cop with what appears to be a very serious ego. No, this is not an episode from "The Three Stooges." This actually happened in Oklahoma.
And the Karl Rove and James Carville slugfest that you must watch.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: You know I always love picking stories that reveal who we are as people, right? Well, this is one of those stories that straddles the line between serious and seriously funny. Some might also say what you're about to see is stupid. They may not be wrong.
Imagine an ambulance driver heading to a call, but instead he's busy scuffling with an officer. This is crazy, all over the issue of who allegedly did not yield to whom. It's like a fight breaking out at a four-way stop between crazy drivers, except in this case, one guy's an officer, and the other is a paramedic.
Let's watch it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're under arrest. You are under arrest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get in there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would like to press charges on him for assault and (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get up there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey! Hey! UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mama, mama (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Calm down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It ain't him. It's him right here. This one is trying to be irate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All this about who yielded to whom before they got to the actual scene. I go first. No, you go first. No, you go first. No, I go first.
This is unbelievable. Some would say this is a lesson in how egos can get in the way of law enforcement. And maybe those who say that are right.
By the way, the argument still isn't over. Now the men are bickering about who first assaulted who, and while the district attorney's office reviewed this footage that I just showed you a moment ago, this incredible example of what appears to be immaturity. The woman who was waiting to be treated, as far as we know, anyway, did eventually make it to the hospital, we're happy to report.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KARL ROVE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I didn't interrupt you, so let my finish making my comment about Obama.
JAMES CARVILLE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Arkansas is in the South.
ROVE: Yes, good. A in geography. You did well in geography.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Whoa. This is a heated exchange between two big strategists, both extremely passionate about politics. Two candid individuals on their feelings. And I guarantee you'll enjoy it.
Our cameras were there for this rare debate. Would you pay to see these guys debate?
I would.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: There are classic match-ups and then there are classic match-ups. What you're about to see is definitely Hatfield and McCoy- ish, Frazier and Ali-ish, Lebron and Kobe-ish.
Wait, that hasn't happened yet.
Here we go. You're about to watch Bush's brain versus Obama's cheerleader. This is left very right. This is Rove versus Carville at Radio City Music Hall in New York to a packed house. The video is our own. They were nice enough to let us go in and shoot for a while. It's a little bit rough at times. And, oh, the first question about -- is this -- about Obama's first four months in office. In other words, how's he done?
Let's take it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARVILLE: You did just sit here and say, let's be worried. We're feeling better about ourselves. People feel better about us. I think we've got some -- really some terrific people in place.
There's some evidence that at least that things are at worst, starting to bottom out; at best, starting to turn around. So, you know, let's give it a chance. We're making some progress here.
It's been four months. You know, it's four months. But basically, we're like a guy that jumps out of a 50-story building. You go up about four (ph) stories, and you say hey, go, so far, so good.
CHARLIE ROSE, HOST: And we hope we've not jumped out of a window.
CARVILLE: Yes.
ROSE: Karl?
ROVE: First of all, it is something quintessentially American that less than 40 years after the civil rights crusade, that we can elect an African-American president. It says something great about America, and we all as Americans ought to take pride in it.
A lot of people when George W. Bush got elected could not put the country first and put their personal feelings about him first, and never accepted him as president, and worked against him from the moment he came to office.
ROSE: Why was that, in your judgment?
ROVE: Because we had an election that was close and controversial. And let's be honest, a certain part of the country doesn't like people who speak with an accent.
ROSE: I'm from North Carolina.
ROVE: Yes, but, you know, you've largely lost that. But, look, there are people who did not want this president to succeed. They wanted him to fail -- Bush.
ROSE: You think so?
CARVILLE: I thought Bill Clinton was from Arkansas, but maybe -- the idea that somehow or another that if you come from -- you know, Lyndon Johnson was from Texas. I mean, come on.
And about this idea, thank God that your hero, that the man that you take over Colin Powell, Rush Limbaugh, has wanted him to succeed since day one. He's been right there, saying I'm going to be American first, a partisan second.
ROVE: Well, James, I would remind you that southern-speaking governor from Arkansas got 43 percent of the vote, the same percentage that Michael Dukakis. So maybe there is a little bit of sentiment in the country about -- look, I didn't interrupt you, so let me finish making my comment about Obama.
CARVILLE: Arkansas is in the South.
ROVE: Good. A in geography. You did well in geography, I bet there.
CARVILLE: Good.
ROVE: But look, there were people who did not, and a lot of them were in the leadership in the Democratic Party and said they wanted Bush to fail. One of them said it on the morning of 9/11, as I recall, James, didn't you?
CARVILLE: I remember Rush saying I want him to fail. I remember you saying -- didn't you say you'd take Rush over Colin Powell?
ROVE: If I had to pick between the two of them, but I don't have to pick between the two of them because they're both Republicans.
CARVILLE: I just wanted to be sure I was right.
ROVE: But I'm glad you glossed over what you said on the morning of 9/11.
CARVILLE: I didn't say nothing on...
ROVE: About wanting Bush to fail.
CARVILLE: Oh, no, that was totally -- you know that. Greg Sergeant (ph) reported on that. We're talking about polling numbers, but it doesn't matter.
You picked Rush. Most people think Powell.
ROVE: No, I want both. I want them both.
CARVILLE: OK.
ROVE: We're a big party. I don't need to choose one or the other.
CARVILLE: Didn't you say you would choose Rush over Obama?
ROVE: I want the guy who votes for Republican candidates for president. But let's go back to Obama.
CARVILLE: You consider Colin Powell a good Republican?
ROVE: I consider him a Republican, yes. But we don't have a membership committee. We don't have a membership committee. (END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: If you love politics, you've got to love those guys. Great stuff. Your comments on it.
Stay with us. We're going to be right back. We'll continue the conversation.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What number?
UNIDENTIFIED CHILDREN: Sixteen.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The children at this Harlem preschool are learning all the skills they'll need to be successful in kindergarten, reversing a trend so common in poor communities.
GEOFFREY CANADA, FOUNDER, HARLEM CHILDREN'S ZONE: Poor children gain language about half the rate of middle class kids. By the time they're into kindergarten, they're already thousands of words behind their peers.
O'BRIEN: Geoffrey Canada grew up one of those poor kids in the South Bronx. Now he's on a mission to level the academic playing field for children in Harlem.
CANADA: We think part of the problem in poor communities, if we come up with a great program and it works for kids for two years, guess what? That's not going to be sufficient.
O'BRIEN: So, Canada created The Harlem Children's Zone, where kids are surrounded by a series of programs, including baby classes, preschools, charter schools, after school programs, and tutoring for college students.
CANADA: What are you learning about?
O'BRIEN: It was hands-on learning when we visited the Promise Academy Charter School in the Harlem Children's Zone.
(on camera): So these are our fourth graders.
(voice-over): These fourth graders had been in the zone's pipeline since birth.
CANADA: This particular class is the smartest class not only at Promise Academy, but probably in all of New York State.
O'BRIEN: And he's got the numbers to prove it -- math and reading scores that beat the city and state averages, and a Harvard study that concludes these kids have closed the black/white achievement gap. BARACK H. OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When I am president of the United States of America, the first part of plan to combat urban poverty will be to replicate the Harlem Children's Zone in 20 cities across the country.
O'BRIEN: Canada says creating just one program on the same scale as the Harlem Children's Zone will take at least $35 million, a tall order during a tough economy.
CANADA: We think if you look at what the cost is not to do this well, you know, these same communities, it's emergency room, it's special ed, it's jails and incarceration. It just doesn't make any sense.
O'BRIEN (on camera): You can front-end it or back-end it?
CANADA: That's exactly right. You're going to pay one way or the other. At least you end up with people who give you back more money than you have ever paid them.
O'BRIEN (voice-over): In Harlem, New York, Soledad O'Brien, CNN, reporting.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: All right. I've got a couple of things I want to show you.
This is the president of the United State. He's been talking energy today.
Before we do anything else, we've got some live pictures coming in from one of our affiliates out in -- actually, two of our affiliates out in L.A. That's KCAL and KCBS as well.
Is that what that said, guys? Does that say KCBS? Is KCBS, one of our affiliates?
Good for them. Well, good for us.
The president has arrived in L.A. after being on what some would call an apologetic trip today in Las Vegas. Remember the president made a statement once about all these business guys going to Las Vegas on these junkets? Well, he got a lot of heat from that, not just from the mayor of Las Vegas, but also from the governor of Nevada. And as a result, he has been deciding to do several venues now in Las Vegas.
Today, he was in Vegas talking about alternative energies. And then we understand now that he's going to be moving on, he's going to be going to Beverly Hills, another one of those places where people sometimes assume that only rich people go to, or people who want to have a lot of fun.
The president is going to be having a fund-raiser, as I understand it today. Let me check my notes to make sure that we're clear. Yes, fund-raiser in Beverly Hills after touring Nellis Air Force base at their photovoltaic array. It's literally 70,000 solar panels strung together to generate electricity, what the president has been pushing as his green initiative, which he says will create some 3,000 jobs in the United States.
So, ,obviously we're going to keep an eye on that. And as the president comes to the door, we will see it, or perhaps Mr. Blitzer, my friend and colleague, will take you through that if it happens during his hour, which is going to be taking place in just a couple of minutes.
By the way, quick Twitter before we go.
Gady, who's watching, says, "When a cop gets out of line, you know to keep a wooden spoon in your car's back."
And then Woody in the middle says, "Saw Senator Burris. I don't trust him as far as I can throw him."
That's it for us. Wolf Blitzer taking you now to the next couple of hours.
