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Who Was Holocaust Museum Shooter?

Aired June 11, 2009 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Then, the big picture -- brilliant mind, war veteran, violent hater? How can that be?

The angry, twisted, hateful and violent lone wolves among us.

DAVID GLETTY, INFILTRATED HATE GROUPS FOR FBI: These guys are violently planning acts all the time.

SANCHEZ: How many more will strike? And who and what has them so fired up?

An important discussion during your national conversation for Thursday, June 11, 2009.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: And hello again, everybody. I am Rick Sanchez with the next generation of news. This is a conversation, it is not a speech, and it is your turn to get involved.

This is a very important show today. We are going to start, though, with some new and some troubling information about Holocaust denier James Von Brunn, as it relates to the election of Barack Obama.

And Drew Griffin is going to be here in just a little bit to take is through it. He has been getting documents. He has been getting some of the affidavits from the past. He probably knows as much as anybody right now about this guy and he will break it down for us.

Let's take you through some of the headlines, though, before we do anything else. Von Brunn thought in many ways that President Obama had to do with some kind of Jewish conspiracy. And Drew is going to be taking us through that.

We are also learning how he double-parked his car and how he entered the building and what he planned to do when he was in the building. We are also learning how this man died, what security guard Stephen Tyrone Johns did that cost him his life.

There is an irony to that, by the way. And then there is a picture that I want you to look at. This is James Von Brunn, who, as you know, hated Jews and hated blacks, still does, I imagine. He is being transported to the hospital.

Pay particular attention to who is working on him, to who is trying to save his life. Three of those EMTs are African-Americans. Von Brunn is still in critical condition and now formally charged with murder.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CATHY LANIER, D.C. METROPOLITAN POLICE CHIEF: James Von Brunn is officially being charged at this point with murder, as well as killing in the course of possession of a firearm in a federal facility.

So, as we move forward, this investigation will continue. The Metropolitan Police Department will continue to work with the FBI on the homicide case and any additional charges that come out as we move forward in this investigation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: I want you -- I want to take you through this as it happened from beginning to end. So, there is this report that's been done by one of our best, Jim Acosta. He met some people, interestingly enough, who know this man personally -- his story now.

Roll it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM ACOSTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Alleged Holocaust Museum gunman James Von Brunn was living off and on at this Annapolis apartment complex with relatives. Neighbors say the 88-year-old bragged about serving in the military and wasn't shy about sharing his white supremacist views.

HAROLD O'LYNNGER, JAMES VON BRUNN'S NEIGHBOR: The only thing he'd ever say that the media covered the holocaust too much.

ACOSTA: FBI agents searched Von Brunn's other home in nearby eastern Maryland where neighbors there say they also saw trouble.

SHAWN PARSON, JAMES VON BRUNN'S NEIGHBOR: I used to be a police officer. And he would be somebody that I would kind of have my eye on.

ACOSTA (on camera): Why?

PARSON: Because of the way he put himself out there. He would be fine one minute and then just like with a young boy that I was talking about, he was just kind of go off on him, you know, for no reason.

ACOSTA (voice-over): Wednesday night, the FBI also interviewed Von Brunn's ex-wife. She told CNN that she's, quote, "in a state of shock" over what happened and asked that we not use her name. She said she didn't know about her ex-husband's anti-Semitic views until a few years into their marriage and was in total disagreement with his views.

But experts in the field of tracking hate groups had had their eye on Von Brunn for years.

MARK POTOK, SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER: Thirty years ago, he was spending time with leading members of the neo-Nazi right.

ACOSTA: Mark Potok with the Southern Poverty Law Center says Von Brunn worked for a publishing group called Noontime Press, which denies the Holocaust. In recent years, Potok says Von Brunn grew more isolated and wrote a hate-filled book entitled "Kill the Best Gentiles," raging against Jews and African-Americans.

POTOK: This was a man who was growing old all by himself. He didn't seem to participate in many movement activities, but he did put out a steady stream of propaganda. ACOSTA: And Von Brunn has acted on his beliefs before. In 1981, he tried to kidnap members of the Federal Reserve, convinced it was controlled by Jews. For that, Von Brunn was convicted and served six years in prison.

JOHN HOGROGIAN, ATTORNEY ON 1983 APPEALS CASE: His defense at trial was essentially that it was an act of conscience. And I had no reason to doubt that he didn't sincerely hold those beliefs.

ACOSTA: By his own account, Von Brunn tried a number of professions from painting to marketing to real estate. What's still unclear is what lit the fuse this time.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: I want to bring in our investigative reporter in, Drew Griffin. He has been working this story since yesterday when it first broke.

And I understand you have been through a lot of documents. First, start with this -- this -- this report out there that you have gathered that apparently he thought the election of Barack Obama was some kind of Jewish conspiracy?

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's not really a report. It comes straight from the FBI.

Here's what happened. The FBI filed this affidavit this morning about what they have been doing in the investigation.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

GRIFFIN: In his car, the red Hyundai outside the -- the Holocaust Museum is a notebook. In that notebook is a statement supposedly or allegedly written in this man's own hands.

And here is what it says. And I think we have a graphic to show you.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

GRIFFIN: It says: "You want my weapons? This is how you will get them. The Holocaust is a lie. Obama was created by Jews. Obama does what his Jew owners tell him to do. Jews captured America's money. Jews control the mass media."

And then he goes on to talk about his book. But here we see the lifelong hatred that he apparently had of the Jews, that the Jews controlled the money, but now we're seeing Obama is now a tool...

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: Well, you and I talked about this yesterday, how he had this whole Negro/Jew, Jew/Negro thing that goes all throughout his writings.

What else did they find? What else are they finding about this guy today that perhaps maybe we didn't know a lot about yesterday?

GRIFFIN: Well, he was pretty much living with his kids because he didn't have any money. He was living in this apartment with his son, $400 a month is what we are learning. on. He had to move in two years ago with his son and Brandy Tiel (ph), a fiancee.

That's where the search warrant was where Jim Acosta was. He had a .22-caliber. So, there may have been some money issues there too. We don't know what he did for a living. He dabbled around in a lot things.

SANCHEZ: You mentioned the Hyundai. He double-parked. He walked in. I think -- I don't know. Did I bring that out here? I'm not sure if I did or not. I was looking at -- did you see that affidavit?

Read to us what the police are saying he did when he double-parked his car. It's the very end of that second one.

GRIFFIN: Yes.

SANCHEZ: I believe it is there. Read that to the viewers.

GRIFFIN: So, he charged this 2002 red Hyundai bearing a Maryland plate, right?

SANCHEZ: Right.

(CROSSTALK)

GRIFFIN: ... doubled parked his vehicle facing southbound in the traffic lane, steps out of the driver's side of the vehicle and approached the entrance to the museum.

SANCHEZ: Right.

GRIFFIN: The defendant was carrying a rifle at his side as he approached the building. As he approached the entrance to the museum, the officer, Stephen Tyrone Johns, who was employed as a security guard, opened the door for the defendant. The defendant raised his rifle, aimed it at the officer, and fired one time striking him in the upper left chest area.

No chance, no statement, no nothing.

SANCHEZ: And then they shot him. What's interesting is, the victim in this case, he is not paid to open doors for people.

GRIFFIN: Right.

SANCHEZ: He went over there and opened the door as a gesture of goodwill to the guy who eventually would kill him.

GRIFFIN: Well, you remember what the Cohens were saying yesterday, Defense Secretary William Cohen and his wife?

SANCHEZ: Right.

GRIFFIN: That this is a friendly guy. He was always greeting people at the door, smiling. He was just a part of that Holocaust Museum community and probably never even thought this could happen.

SANCHEZ: A couple of things before we let you go. And I know you have got some more drilling down to do on this.

There are stories about him having a decorated Army record, about being in World War II. Have you checked on any of those?

GRIFFIN: True.

SANCHEZ: True?

GRIFFIN: That is true. He was in the Navy. He was the captain or commanded a P.T. boat off of Italy in May of '44, when the Anzio invasion was going on. He did get some service ribbons, a letter of commendation for outstanding performance duty as an executive of that boat.

This all comes from the Navy Historical Center. So, that part of his -- his own statements, they are true. He is a decorated war veteran.

And May 1944 off the coast of Italy, we, the United States, are fighting the Nazis.

SANCHEZ: So, he is fighting Nazis?

GRIFFIN: Correct.

SANCHEZ: And now he is, at least by all indications, a neo-Nazi himself.

GRIFFIN: That's right.

SANCHEZ: That's amazing. Talk about irony.

Drew Griffin, great stuff. Thanks for being on this stuff, will you?

Appreciate it. We will see you again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHEN JOHNS, SON OF SLAIN SECURITY OFFICER: I was just hoping and hoping that he would make it.

(END VIDEO CLIP) SANCHEZ: This will break your heart. It's the son of slain security Officer Stephen Johns. He is reacting to, well, the fact that his dad is dead and how he died, as more details come in about who this man was that we are going to share with you.

But think about this? How can a man who was decorated during World War II and was brilliant enough to be a member of Mensa also be hateful enough to do something like this? We will examine that for you throughout this hour.

Stay with us, the special coverage on this story the day after.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, Rick. This is Leslie from Indiana.

And, honestly, I don't want to hear anything else about hateful white racists, because they're nobodies. Like any other hate-monger, they're nobodies looking to make a really negative name for themselves and leave behind a negative legacy.

I would like to hear more about Mr. Johns. He was the good guy in all of this. And he lost his life. I want to hear what he meant to his family.

Thanks.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: All right, you just heard just a little while ago something being expressed on the, "Hey, Rick" line, as we call it. It was somebody who was telling us, look, as interested as I am in the bad guy, I also want to hear about the good guy.

We plan to do that for you. As a matter of fact, we are doing some of it right now. I know we are not forgetting in all of this white supremacy weirdness that the family of an innocent man is grieving today. His Stephen Tyrone Johns. Get this. He opened the door to the museum for James Von Brunn.

He opened the door. He did so courteously, professionally, not because he had to -- because he wanted to. He opened the door for the man who witnesses say then shot him in the chest and killed him.

You want to hear what kind of guy Stephen Tyrone Johns really was? Listen to his son. Listen to the words of this young man who is today without a dad.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNS: Then, I was just hoping and hoping that he would make it.

QUESTION: So, you didn't get to see him?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, not before he passed.

JOHNS: Not before he passed.

He was a loving father. And so many...

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We think of him -- we think him as a hero.

JOHNS: (INAUDIBLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: I want to share something with you now, James Von Brunn, a proud Navy man, a World War II veteran, an advertising executive, and said to be a member of Mensa -- Mensa. See -- see -- see where we are going here?

We are going to go there with Dr. Judy Kuriansky in just a little bit. She's going to help us try and make sense of all of this.

But, before we do that, there's one other thing I want to do. Some of you have been watching what we're talking about today, which we will continue to talk about throughout the hour, a lot of interesting points to be made on this day that a lot of Americans are talking about at their dinner tables.

But listen to this point by Dionte Hall. She's on Facebook. And she just wrote this to me during this last commercial. We have picked it up.

It says: "I was thinking about the irony of the three African-American EMS personnel that helped save the life of Von Brunn. It shows the unbiased perception of EMS workers, that, although they may not -- with the circumstances, they still have a job to do."

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: You know, it's interesting. You get sometimes news from people who watch our newscast. We have got some information coming to us now.

This is somebody who watches daily and talks to us. Let's go to MySpace, if we possibly can. It says: "I have got a friend who works as a directions officer and said, they have had a higher rate of fights since this. The black cliques are beefing with the Aryans inside prison as we speak."

Interesting, the kind of developments most of us would never really be privy to. Now, think about this. If I told you about an 88-year-old man who was a veteran of World War II, as we just heard Drew Griffin describe to us a little while ago, who was an advertising executive, even briefly a member of Mensa, you would probably say, that's an accomplished person, right? Think about it. Mensa is an invitation-only organization for intellectuals. You have to pass a test to get in, a test that most of us, including me, would not pass.

So, how, then, is it possible that a person can be smart and accomplished while also being so hateful and even violent? Think about that.

There is one person who could answer this question for us. Her name is Dr. Judy Kuriansky. She joined us yesterday. And we have had several discussions, because I know all of us at our dinner tables have been thinking about this guy.

How can this man be both of those things?

DR. JUDY KURIANSKY, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Rick, it seems like a contradiction in terms, but, actually, it makes sense. It proves that killers, criminals, and those who are hate-mongers like this cross all borders and boundaries of personality styles and intelligence. And they can be super-intelligent.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: Look, I tell my kids and my kids' kids when I am sitting around talking to them and coaching their football teams, I tell them, I believe that people who educate themselves become better citizens. They become people who are better and more fun to be with. They're easier to get along with. They are a delight.

That's what happens when you educate yourself, when you learn things, no?

KURIANSKY: Well, you have put your finger on something that is extremely important. And that is the importance of education of children. That's one of the outcomes of this.

There are -- I'm fearful about copycats, that kids will copy this and other people, even adults and older people, as we have seen. I'm concerned about cyber-hate. There's going to be a conference at the United Nations about cyber-hate.

SANCHEZ: Wow.

KURIANSKY: Because this man spread his virulent violence on the Internet. And kids are on the Internet all the time.

And the third thing is about reactions of children. And education is important. There has been a rage of bullying in schools and violence. We need to teach our kids about not being prejudiced and about being able to communicate, instead of being violent.

SANCHEZ: But what about just being smart? What about just knowing something about social psychology and sociology, reading the classics, knowing about other people's culture, understanding the history of the Middle East, of African-Americans, of why they came here, of who they are? How about that stuff? I mean, isn't that most likely to make you a more well-rounded person, who is least likely to hate?

KURIANSKY: Well, that's beautiful. What you just said is perfect. That's exactly what needs to happen in the schools and in the home, because those energies can go in one direction or the other.

This unfortunate man and others who are terrorists choose to take their intelligence and their emotions and put them in negative directions. You have put them into a positive direction.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: But what if their intelligence is based on calculus and trigonometry? And what if they...

(LAUGHTER)

SANCHEZ: No, I'm serious.

KURIANSKY: I know.

SANCHEZ: I look at what happens in the school systems these days. Everybody wants to be a computer scientist, and everybody is studying math. And not enough people are maybe studying the things that can make us a better people and a better country.

KURIANSKY: Well, bless you, because that message needs to be communicated and it needs to be implemented. And that's where it's going to happen, in teaching kids about this and teaching them about positive ways of -- of honoring other people, appreciating others, and being respectful of all religions and all backgrounds, and expressing themselves.

This -- this man and all these violent people go out and take their emotions and act them out on others. Kids experience this all the time in schools and outside of schools, in the schoolyards, and with their friends. And even at home, they see it.

So, if they learn to take those emotions, talk about them, and if they learn respect, then, just as you beautifully expressed, that's going to solve all these problems in our -- in our -- in our communities now, which are overrun with -- with violence and poverty and people feeling desperate.

SANCHEZ: Yes.

You know, I think we're -- I think you are on to something here. And I think -- I think we become victims of the things we don't know. And I think this may be an important case of it.

I also believe, unlike what some of our viewers have been saying, suggesting that we shouldn't talk about this guy, that we shouldn't do this story, I think we should do this story.

(CROSSTALK) SANCHEZ: I think we should do a case study of this man, don't you?

KURIANSKY: Absolutely. Oh, oh, absolutely. This is exactly what's important for people to know how even older people, as we know, that an 88-year-old man can have these feelings...

SANCHEZ: Yes.

KURIANSKY: ... and -- and teaching kids and ourselves, being aware of the kinds of feelings...

SANCHEZ: Yes.

KURIANSKY: ... that people can have and how they can express them. So, I totally agree with you. We should be learning about the characters who are like this. We should be vigilant about them, noticing about them, and learn how to teach our kids not to be that way.

SANCHEZ: Dr. Judy, you are a delight. Thanks so much for being on again.

KURIANSKY: Thank you, Rick.

SANCHEZ: I appreciate it.

Well, police alluded today to not moving on Von Brunn sooner, because they wanted to respect his civil rights. They wanted to respect his civil rights. Yet, really, when you think about it, hundreds of Muslims or other people who look like Muslims, just look like Muslims, had their civil rights cast aside in this country.

Let's talk about facts here. We will cite cases, by the way, in case you are wondering if that's true. Were we wrong then to do it? Or are we wrong now in the way we have handled this guy? I mean, this is a tricky question, folks, which is exactly why we are making it part of today's national conversation with you -- more of your interactive feedback on this special edition of the Sanchez show when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Let's top this special coverage real quick, because I understand there is information coming in.

And that always take priority, Chad Myers on top of it.

Chad, what have you got?

CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: A quick tornado warning for people around Castle Rock, Colorado, to the north of there, really around the Pinery. Here is the storm. Here's Parker, the Ponderosa Park. This storm is sliding through. This big pink box right there, that is the tornado warning spotted by spotters out there to the east of I-25. That would be Castle Rock there.

The storm and the rotation is just to the north of there, just south of Parker.

But, Parker, you are in for a hailstorm as well. We will keep you up to date as conditions change out there, Rick.

SANCHEZ: All right. A couple of quick tweets as we follow the news.

This is Johnirip. And he's telling us, "The hate groups are ridiculous, should be tracked, should be shut down."

And then, "Domestic terrorists are treated differently from foreign terrorists because they are protected by the U.S. laws."

One more: "White supremacists should get the same treatment as Islamic extremists. They have the same goal, terrorizing our country."

Should they? Should they? Or were we wrong then? Or are we wrong now? It's an -- it's -- it's an interesting and important question. That's what we are going to talk about when we come back. Stay with us.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, Rick. This is Darren (ph) from D.C.

I love your show, but I think our society -- I live in Washington, D.C. -- treats supremacists, white supremacists, different from terror suspects, and especially in my job environment. When it comes to terror suspects, everybody is bad. When it comes to white supremacists, nobody wants to comment about it.

Have a nice day.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez here in the world headquarters of CNN.

Here's another one of those enthemymes that I like pose for all of you out there who are watching. I want you to think about this. All right?

On September 26, 2002, just a year after the 9/11 attacks in this country, a man named Maher Arar was returning home from vacation. He's been a Canadian citizen since 1991. So he's a Canadian citizen, mind you.

But on this day, on his way back to his adopted hometown in Canada, this man, born in Syria, was stopped at JFK Airport in New York. He was questioned about alleged links to al Qaeda. He's actually a wireless technology consultant who claimed that he didn't have any links to al Qaeda.

And yet, 12 days later, he was put on a plane, he was shipped back to Syria, the country where he was born, placed behind bars for more than 10 months, tortured until he gave a coerced confession, he says. That's his story as it's posted on his Web site.

He is coming as clean as he could possibly come, wants to tell his story, and is now suing the U.S. government for his treatment, even though he has not yet actually been exonerated. All his friends and family are saying they had the wrong guy.

By the way, there are plenty of cases like this.

Now, fast forward to the Holocaust Museum shooting, James von Brunn. This guy served prison time for trying to kidnap members of the Federal Reserve. He admitted to hating Jews and hating blacks. He spent much of his life telling people exactly what his hate was all about and even acting in violent ways. He is allowed to live a life of peace.

Is there a double standard here? Why were we so vehement, so strident with the Muslims, who in many cases were perfectly innocent, while we allow in this case a gentlemen named Von Brunn to basically go unpunished until he does something like this?

All right. Let's bring in our guests.

Nihad Awad is the executive director of the Council on American Islamic Relations. And Ben Ferguson, hosts syndicated conservative- leaning radio show, "The Ben Ferguson Show."

Ben, let me begin with you.

Americans, if there is one thing you can say about us, is we're fair, we're fair-minded. We like things to be equal. We don't like double standards.

This sounds on its face, as you describe not just the case of Arar, but so many others, like we, in the last 10 years, have been undergoing a bit of a double standard in this country.

Am I wrong?

BEN FERGUSON, HOST, "THE BEN FERGUSON SHOW": Well, I think you've got to look at each situation individually. I mean, obviously, this man who did this horrible thing that we see going on that happened at the Holocaust Museum, he had been to jail multiple times. Now, maybe we should look at the laws and maybe he should have stayed there longer, but the reality is there is a difference between one man going in guns a blazing and the jihadists and terrorists who are trying to kill 3,000, 4,000, 5,000, 6,000 people at the same time.

SANCHEZ: But if this guy had been a Muslim and he had said and did the things that he said and did, and he had made the threats that he did, he would have been waterboarded. You know that, Ben, just like I know that.

FERGUSON: No, I don't know that. And I'll tell you this much -- the biggest difference is you're forgetting here you're talking about some people that are American citizens and some people that are not American citizens here. And to say that he would have been waterboarded I think is, one, editorializing, and two, just a little bit ridiculous.

We don't do that in this country. We may do that to known terrorists around the world, but in this country, you know that when you go to jail, you don't get waterboarded. That's absurd even to mention it.

SANCHEZ: We probably would have taken him somewhere and asked him an awful lot of questions.

FERGUSON: Sure, absolutely.

SANCHEZ: And whether or not you want to define it as torture or not, though, Ben, there are people who are, by the way, suspected terrorists who were tortured.

FERGUSON: You and I ask questions all the time. It's not torture. This man went to jail. He was outside the World Bank. He had done other things in the past, and unfortunately, he did what he did at the Holocaust Museum.

But the fact of the matter is, you cannot treat an individual who, worst case scenario, does what he did, compared to somebody that is planning to blow up the World Trade Center or an airplane or who knows what else it could be. I mean, to say that we are going to treat each individual the same as we treat a terrorist organization is unrealistic.

SANCHEZ: Yes. Well, let me just remind you once again of the story we just told where people were picked up.

I suppose I should let the representative from CAIR help us with that one.

Go ahead, sir.

NIHAD AWAD, CO-FOUNDER, CAIR: Well, thank you very much for having me. And first, allow me to extend sympathy and support to the Jewish community and heartfelt condolences to the family of the fallen officer. We issued a statement yesterday within hours of the attack to make sure that our community sends a clear and resounding message against hate and violence.

You know, as far as selective prosecution and selective memory and selective sensitivity, it is very disturbing. But a minority like ours is now fighting this bigotry and stereotypes all the time.

We do not want to generalize against any community or against any race. But also, we cannot say that we should make excuses for individuals who -- just because they belong to a certain race.

Just remember, Timothy McVeigh, he killed hundreds of people. He was white. Maybe he went to a church certain times.

The killer of the abortion doctor, Dr. Tiller, I am sure he used or misused biblical references for his violence. We never refer to him as a terrorist or even as a Christian. So, we have in this society now some kind of selective sensitivity. And once we reeducate ourselves that we all should be treated equal, we should not generalize, and we should not pick and choose, then this bigotry will be...

SANCHEZ: All right. Let's give Ben a chance to say -- you say all people should be treated equal according to their guilt or innocence.

Ben, you disagree.

FERGUSON: No. I think you have to treat terrorists differently than you treat average Americans...

SANCHEZ: But what if they're suspected terrorists?

FERGUSON: Let me finish.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: No, I'm not going to let you finish.

FERGUSON: OK.

SANCHEZ: You know why? I'm not going to let you finish because you keep using the word "terrorist" as if everyone who we ever as a nation did everything against was a terrorist. Many of them, because they never got a trial, can only be called suspected terrorists. And that's a huge difference, Ben.

FERGUSON: All I know is this -- there are thousands of people that die every year in this country related to gang warfare. We have gangs in this country. Do you think that we should treat gangs the same way that we treat terrorists? No. And anyone that would suggest that would say that is ludicrous.

You can't -- horrible things happen in this country. And they're isolated.

The Virginia Tech killer, prime example. That was a horrible person. But the worst case scenario, he runs out of bullets, totally different than the way you treat people who come from the Middle East or those in Guantanamo Bay.

And to say that you have to look at them the same and you have to treat them all the same, I mean, obviously there was a guy who was mentally ill that went and killed the abortion doctor the other day. Terrible tragedy.

Should it be investigated and be monitored? Should he be monitored the same way that we think possible terrorists should be monitored? Heavens no. The reason why we don't treat gang members like terrorists in this country -- and thousands of people die every year because of gang-related injuries and shootouts.

SANCHEZ: The point is this -- when someone of one group makes even a threat, an insinuation, maybe talks about where they think it would be a good place to sit on a plane, they are taken off the plane. They are not allowed to fly. And in some instances, as we all know, they are taken out of the United States, humiliated in front of their family, and their credibility is destroyed. While other people make similar threats, they are left alone.

All I'm saying -- and I'm not saying one is right or the other is right. Maybe they both need to be treated harshly. Or maybe they both need to be left alone.

But it seems -- and Mr. Awad, I'll give you the last word -- it seems like a double standard.

AWAD: It is a double standard. And this can only be removed by education.

And I would like to say thank you, Rick, for opening this conversation, allowing us to be part of the national discourse.

Yesterday's incident is a huge reminder for all of us not to rush to judgment and not to assume that all people are guilty. But at the same time, not to allow comfort zones for real terrorists to grow. And if we want to use the label "terrorist," we should use it across the board or not use it at all, because it is politics that's motivating some of us to use it against a group of people and not to use it against another.

SANCHEZ: OK. We thank you both for being on.

FERGUSON: Thanks for having us.

Ben, thanks -- I appreciate the heat. And you know I always respect everything that you have to say. I hope you are OK with me.

FERGUSON: As always, man. As always. See you again.

SANCHEZ: All right. Appreciate it. Thanks so much.

AWAD: Thank you for having us.

SANCHEZ: Many of you are commenting on these conversations we are having today through what you are saying and what drives a person to become so hateful. So, when we come back, we've collected some of those.

Hot opinions on both sides, you'll hear them when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: It says, "A Whale of a show, Rick. You broke Twitter."

Thanks. I doubt it.

In the hours after yesterday's shooting at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, it became pretty clear what this guy was. I mean, he was a white supremacist; right? James von Brunn wrote about hating Jews and African-Americans. And I'm sure he hated others as well, especially those, you know, pinco (ph), lefty you know whats, whatever that means.

What you see next to me is his Arian Web site. See it up there? By the way, that's a very old picture of him.

It's been taken down, the Web site, but we saved it so we could show it to you. This Web site is where police are attracted to out-and-out lies or exaggerations and stories with just enough glimmer of truth to make the really hateful and uninformed go, "Wow, I didn't know that. Are they really doing that to us?"

Joining us now is David Gletty, who infiltrated the American-Nazi Party.

Here is a clip of him, in fact, on YouTube, surrounded by an audience of self-described bigots.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID GLETTY, INFILTRATED HATE GROUPS FOR FBI: White power! White power! White power!

I was coming out of the store after pay for gas, and two (EXPLETIVE DELETED) tried robbing me with broken bottles.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: "FBI Informant" on there, "Rat," entitled -- scrolled across the screen.

Why? Well, that's because Gletty was ultimately outed by the group. And guess what? During his undercover days, he actually crossed paths with von Brunn.

David, thanks so much for being with us. Appreciate it.

You're welcome.

SANCHEZ: What was it like? Where did you meet this guy? What was he like? What do you remember about him?

GLETTY: Well, the first time I met him I was at the Klan rally in Laurens, South Caorlina. It's the only Klan Museum in the United States of America.

Usually, when they have large rallies there, there is upwards of 250, 300, 400 people. I was there with another Klan member which was helping me get into the Klan, vouching for me and everything, and he pointed Mr. Von Brunn out to myself, explained to me that he was a prisoner of war. They believe that if you are held in prison as a white person for a racially-charged crime, you are a prisoner of war by the imperialistic government of the United States of America. And these people looked up to him.

SANCHEZ: Did anything strike you about him at the time?

GLETTY: Not really. He just looked like everybody else.

He was outspoken, and everyone knew he had a lot of literature out there. And I believe he had a couple of books out there. But everyone looked up to him.

He was already a hero in the movement because he had a badge of honor. When you serve prison time or jail time, these white supremacists look at that as a badge of honor just like military get medals of honor. Well, they believe that that's a badge of honor and they give you respect.

SANCHEZ: Part of our conversation today is about who these guys are and how organized they are. Can you give us a sense of whether these people really are organized and to be feared, or just a bunch of lunes out there trying to have camp hate amongst themselves and aren't really that dangerous? Which is it?

GLETTY: Well, when I was first assigned to the White Power Movement by the FBI, I thought they were just crazy lunes and so on. But once myself and my investigative partner, Joe, infiltrated these guys and got into the movement, it really opened our eyes.

These guys are more organized than you think. And we need to take them more serious than we are, because they are -- like, take, for instance, the National Socialist Movement, NSM. They are the largest neo-Nazi group in the United States of America, they are very active. They have rallies all the time, protest in large cities. And they need to be taken serious.

SANCHEZ: We're out of time, but I want a "yes" or "no" from you if you can possibly give it to us.

Have they gotten more strident since the election of our first African-American president?

GLETTY: Yes, sir. Recruitment is at an all-time high right now.

SANCHEZ: Wow.

Thanks so much for the information and thanks for coming on. We'll get you back. All right?

GLETTY: Yes, sir.

SANCHEZ: Speaking of hateful speech, have you heard what the Reverend Jeremiah Wright said about why he no longer talks to President Obama? You will. That's next.

Then, who and what is riling up these extremists? What is it? We'll talk about that in our next conversation. It's ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: New video coming into us. We just got some pictures now of the crime scene where the shooting took place yesterday. These are exclusive pictures, or what's left of the scene after police had left.

There you see what appears to be either a clipboard or some papers on the ground, a sandal. That's the -- those are the magnetometers that are used to check people.

Still curious as to how or why the guard opened the door for him if he had a gun on him, unless maybe he was hiding it in a coat or -- you know, it's interesting. Sometimes it's that question that doesn't get asked throughout the day that seems most curious.

I was just talking to one of my colleagues here at CNN who said, "Why did the guard open the door for him if he had a gun?" It's a good question. I hope we get the answer to it later on. We'll try.

By the way, here's this: Is there a tone shift in this country that was capitalized by the election of -- pardon me -- I said capitalized. Was there a tone in this country that was actually started with the election of our first black president that is bringing the crazies out of the woodwork? And are they being motivated to move by right-wing pronouncements like "He's dangerous," "He's a socialist," "He's a Muslim, " and "He isn't even a U.S. citizen."

This is what we hear on some TV and radio outlets, which, by the way, according to our Constitution, they are entitled to what they believe and even propagate.

But Eric Boehlert, who's a senior fellow at the liberal Web site Media Matters for America says there is a connection.

Roger Aronoff, an analyst for the conservative watchdog group Accuracy in Media says, no, not so fast.

We thank you both, Gentlemen, for being with us.

The floor is yours. I will referee.

Eric, start with the premise that I read that you have been writing about today, if you would.

ERIC BOEHLERT, SR. FELLOW, MEDIA MATTERS FOR AMERICA": Well, yes. I don't think there's any -- I don't think there's any doubt since Barack Obama's been elected there's been a complete unhinged reaction from the conservative movement in America, and sort of this vigilante and malicious-style rhetoric has become a cornerstone of the movement and certainly of conservative media. And there are consequences and responsibilities when you sort of broadcast that hate 24/7.

You know, we saw it in the '90s. We saw this sort of rhetoric about socialists, Marxists, new world order. But you had to dig around the underground to find that stuff about the Clintons and Democrats. Now you just turn on talk radio or cable news and it's literally inundated, and it seems to me unconscionable that the people who are pushing it are not at this moment taking a step back and reevaluating what they should be doing.

SANCHEZ: But do you believe there's a cause and effect here? BOEHLERT: I think it absolutely creates a dangerous environment. There's no doubt about that. Now, the people who commit these crimes are ultimately responsible, but there's no question it creates a very dangerous environment.

SANCHEZ: Mr. Aronoff?

ROGER ARONOFF, ANALYST, ACCURACY IN MEDIA: Yes. I don't know where Eric's been the last six years or so, but the hatred coming from the left and people like Keith Olbermann...

BOEHLERT: And where's the violence from the left been in the last six or eight years? There hasn't been any.

ARONOFF: Well, the day after George Tiller was murdered, we had Abdulhakim Muhammad kill Private Long, and we've seen before that there was other incidences.

SANCHEZ: But the point is, Mr. Aronoff, but how was that -- Abdulhakim Muhammad's actions spurred, or where was the cause and effect by anybody on the radio that may have caused him to do that?

ARONOFF: Well, he obviously had a very strong feeling against the military, and after years of hearing how the president and the vice president were war criminals and lied us into a war, and night after night hearing this, this hatred coming from the left, it's understandable.

SANCHEZ: OK.

ARONOFF: But I in no way would blame any of this on Keith Olbermann, just like I wouldn't do the guilt by association of what happened yesterday, this man who, 28 years ago, had gone into the Federal Reserve building with a rifle to arrest Paul Volcker, to somehow suggest that he was motivated by talk radio. If you go to his Web site, he talks about socialism is the future of the world. So...

SANCHEZ: No, that's not the kind of socialism he's talking about.

BOEHLERT: No.

SANCHEZ: He's talking about socialism as in the Nazi Party socialism.

But go ahead and pick that up for us, Eric.

BOEHLERT: Well, I don't think there's a historical connection between the left and the Ku Klux Klan in this country. You were just reporting on your undercover agent saw him at Klan rallies and things like that.

Look, I mean, that's the false equivalency now. You know, liberals were critical of Bush and had hate speech during his years. I can't find any dehumanizing, demonizing quotes from anyone on the left about military recruiters. The left is not built around this vigilante sort of militia rhetoric of hate.

SANCHEZ: We'll leave it there, Gentlemen.

BOEHLERT: The conservative movement now embraces it.

SANCHEZ: Guys, we're out of time. We'll get you both back. Appreciate the conversation and time.

We'll continue to stay on top of this story.

In the meantime, let's turn things over to Washington and Wolf Blitzer, who's standing by with "THE SITUATION ROOM."