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Interview With Former Guantanamo Bay Detainee; Interview with California Attorney General
Aired June 13, 2009 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: This hour, Iran in an uproar about who really won the presidential election. Now, the government is clamping down on its own people. We'll go live to our Christiane Amanpour on the ground.
Exclusive: Finally, we hear from the man held for years inside of Guantanamo Bay prison. People say they're terrorists. I ask them that to their face.
California's attorney general picks a side in the debate over Prop 8. We'll talk to him live.
The news starts right now.
Hello, everyone. I'm Don Lemon.
We begin tonight with growing unrest in Iran after the reelection of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Supporters of challenger Mir Hossein Mousavi have taken to the streets of Tehran, alleging blatant election fraud.
Our chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour is there.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Frustration boiled over and ran through the streets of this Tehran neighborhood after official election results delivered reform candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi a crushing defeat in Friday's election.
(CROWD CHANTING)
AMANPOUR: "Mousavi, Mousavi, get my vote back for me," they shout. "Death to the dictator," they shout.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People in Tehran hate Ahmadinejad. People in Tehran hate Ahmadinejad.
AMANPOUR: Hundreds of riot police were deployed. And for an hour here, they were running battles with angry street protesters as each side charged the other. The protestors threw rocks and set garbage cans on fire. And many were beat within batons. After a while, the growing crowd surged towards the main square. There were more security forces and police, but here, they did not intervene. And then the protestors set off down Tehran's main north- south avenue.
"We're here to protect our vote," says this man, "because we feel we've been insulted. Our vote is being insulted."
(on camera): Shooting "God is great," the people have now joined thousands and thousands of supporters marching down this main artery that links north with south Tehran.
(voice-over): Hundreds more waved them on from the side street, from windows and roof tops, from the overpass.
"Come over and support us," shouted the marchers.
As this was happening, the final election results were being broadcast by the interior ministry: of 39 million votes cast, 24.5 million were counted for President Ahmadinejad and just over 13 million for Mir Hossein Mousavi. And with that came the official seal of approval, Iran's supreme religious leader Ayatollah Khamenei delivered a message, congratulating the people on their epic Friday election -- on the record turnout and the results, saying the president was everyone's president.
But Mousavi, who had, last night, declared himself the winner based on his campaign's exit poll, also wrote an open letter to the people, calling the results shocking and vowing not to surrender, quote, "to such stagecraft where the system cheats the people out of their vote."
By late evening, President Ahmadinejad appeared on state television to thank his supporters.
PRES. MAHMOUD AHMADINEJAD, IRAN (through translator): I thank all -- all who created this great epic, all those who voted for me, or those who voted for other candidates. All contributed to creation of this great event. And I sincerely thank all of them.
AMANPOUR: There are plans for a victory celebration on Sunday as officials say that Ahmadinejad's surprising landslide and the record voter turnout proved that people can trust the process.
Christiane Amanpour, CNN, Tehran.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: All right -- our Christiane Amanpour on the ground there in Tehran.
Even though Internet communications in Iran have been disrupted, we've received these iReports. Take a look at them. Our iReporters got a lot of them from their Facebook friends. These photos were taken today as protesters filled the streets of Tehran and then uploaded to Facebook. And you can see there was a major police presence on the street and a lot of raw emotion as young Iranian's expressed their shock over the election results.
We're doing a lot of reporting on this issue tonight because Iranians around the world have also been reacting to the election.
This was a scene today in London. That was outside the Iranian embassy. Many Iranians had expected challenger Mir Hossein Mousavi to win and his campaign had been highly optimistic it would. So, the re- election of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has provoked a highly vocal backlash.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a long, long time I've been this angry about anything. And I really cannot understand how could they do this?
We fought for the revolution. We wanted the change. We wanted fair for everyone. We're told we will have freedom, not this. I don't want this.
We should have another one (AUDIO BREAK) there are representatives or all candidates in there counting the ballots when they're doing everything so we know our true vote is counted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: The White House says it is paying close attention to the developments in Iran. And CNN's Elaine Quijano has the latest from the White House.
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Don, and the White House's response, there is no mention of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, certainly no congratulatory wishes or anything of the kind. Instead, the Obama administration is making clear there is skepticism surrounding the results of the Iranian election.
In a written statement, White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said, quote, "Like the rest of the world, we were impressed by the vigorous debate and enthusiasm that this election generated, particularly among young Iranians. We continue to monitor the entire situation closely, including reports of irregularities."
Now, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton echoed those comments at a news conference, she said the United States is continuing to watch the situation closely.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, U.S. SECRETARY: We are monitoring the situation as it unfolds in Iran. But we, like the rest of the world, are waiting and watching to see what the Iranian people decide. The United States has refrained from commenting on the election in Iran. We obviously hope that the outcome reflects the genuine will and desire of the Iranian people.
(END VIDEO CLIP) QUIJANO: Now, ahead of the result, President Obama had said that regardless of the outcome, the U.S. would still try to engage with the Iranian government. But analysts say with Ahmadinejad still in power, it's not clear what new opportunities the U.S. will have to do that -- Don?
LEMON: All right. Thank you, Elaine.
Karim Sadjadpour is an associate at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and a leading expert on Iran. I spoke with him tonight about this election. He denounced the outcome in no uncertain terms. And I ask if there was any way that these results can be contested if the grand ayatollah has already signed off on this -- here's what he had to say about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KARIM SADJADPOUR, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT ASSOCIATE: This revolutionary elite, the political elite in Tehran, had never been more divided now. And Ayatollah Khamenei, the supreme leader, is the most powerful individual in Iran, but historically, he's not been a dictator like Saddam Hussein was in Iraq. He's ruled by census.
And you actually have a very narrow consensus behind President Ahmadinejad now. So, I think that in the coming days and weeks, it will be more clear whether or not they'll able -- they're able to get away with this fraud. That's exactly what this was, it was a fraud.
LEMON: And, Karim, if we -- if we look at this as maybe with optimism, at least some positive out of this, is that there were -- at least there are protest there and there was not room for protests there in the past. So at least they're having that now. Is that some sign that the region, that Iran is moving forward?
SADJADPOUR: You know what they do, Don, is that -- ahead of the elections, they ease political and social restrictions to project a democratic face to the world.
LEMON: Right.
SADJADPOUR: But then after the elections is when they really clamp down. They have repression down to a science in Tehran.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: We have gotten hundreds of still pictures and iReports from the streets of Tehran, and even Facebook's Arab community is reacting to this.
Joining us now by phone is CNN's senior editor of Arab affairs, Octavia Nasr.
Octavia, thank you. What do you make of this when you hear about all the social networking sites and Internet being shut down there?
OCTAVIA NASR, CNN SR. EDITOR ARAB AFFAIRS (via telephone): That is very interesting story, Don. Throughout the day, all the reports said, our audience have heard so far, you know, from Christiane Amanpour, from Quijano, from all our reporters, as the globe, we were monitoring the situation with people, with real Iranians, real voters.
As they were coming back yesterday, we followed them. They were tweeting on Twitter. They were sending out messages. How long the lines were, how huge the turnout was. How excited everyone was. And with them, we also saw the reaction, the shock to the news.
Initially, the news came out that Mousavi had won the election. And they started celebrating. They started reporting who's called him to congratulate him and so forth.
And then things changed. They started saying there are rumors, we're hearing rumors, something is going on -- and then that's when they started sending out numbers showing that President Ahmadinejad was the one getting most votes.
So, overnight I stayed with them. We were very close to them. People from inside Iran reacting and across the world. This is when the shock turned into a demonstration and the demonstration turned violent.
And the whole world was standing there with Iranians saying, "Where did my vote go?" That is the question on everybody's minds. They just want to know how the counting went on and how the results were (INAUDIBLE) a sliding majority in favor of President Ahmadinejad. This is really what's making people upset. They're saying, "Look at how things were."
A few weeks ago, President Ahmadinejad was doing very well. Then there were the televised debates and he didn't do so well after that.
LEMON: Right.
NASR: Tehran was split. It wanted change. And this is when President Ahmadinejad started sliding back. So, with these results, they're saying that it can't be a landslide win like this.
LEMON: Octavia, we have to move on. Thank you. We appreciate it. We appreciate you keeping an eye on the social networking sites and the Internet as well. Thank you very much.
Tomorrow on "GPS: Fareed Zakaria" on the "Fight for the Future of Iran." What is at stake? "GPS" -- Sunday 1:00 p.m. Eastern, right here on CNN.
The U.N. Security Council votes to sanction North Korea, and North Korea responds. The country announced plans to step up its nuclear capabilities. North Korea says it plans to make all its plutonium weapons ready. The communist country recently set off global alarms with the nuclear tests, several missile tests and heightened military rhetoric.
Held in Guantanamo Bay prison for seven years. Now, there are three men in Bermuda. I met with two former detainees face-to-face -- an exclusive interview with men who've lived in secrecy and isolation until now.
Plus: Out of the wreckage -- salvaging the personal effects of the plane crash victims.
Also, tell us what's on your mind tonight. Twitter, Facebook, MySpace or iReport.com. We'll get your responses on the air.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Former Guantanamo detainees speak out. Tonight, we're bringing you a rare and exclusive interview with people who've lived under a virtual shroud for years. We're taking you to Hamilton, Bermuda, where the Obama administration has relocated four detainees from Guantanamo Bay.
I just returned from the Caribbean Island where I spoke with two of the four men. Now, these men are Chinese Uighurs, Muslim separatist who's say they went to Afghanistan because they were oppressed by the Chinese government. They were captured in Afghanistan or Pakistan after the U.S. bombings began in October of 2001.
Now, I asked one of them what he would say to people who call them terrorists.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, FRIDAY)
LEMON: When people say that you're a terrorist, how do you respond to that?
KHALIS ABDUL NASSER, FORMER GITMO DETAINEE: I have not been terrorist. I will never be terrorist. I'm very peaceful person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Well, another detainee spoke with me through a translator -- all of them, as a matter of fact. And I asked them if they were -- what they were doing in Afghanistan and if they got any training at a terrorist camp, and this is what they said in their translated response.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, FRIDAY)
NASSER (through translator): This is not true because I have never been in any kind of training camp. I have never been in any training. And the U.S. courts confirmed this, that I had never been a terrorist or trained for a terrorist. So, this is just accusation against me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I asked the men about their thoughts on President Bush and about President Obama's promise to shut down Guantanamo Bay for good.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, FRIDAY) NASSER (through translator): We were in a jail innocently for more than seven years during the President Bush administration. Now, the new president, Obama, became elected. He tried really hard to bring justice. And he has been trying very hard to find other countries to resettle us. And finally, he freed us.
President Obama promised that he would shut down Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, within one year and to sign the executive order. I would like that President Obama to honor that word and to free my 13 brothers who were left behind and all the rest of the people who deserve to be free.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: A lot has been made about the conditions inside Guantanamo Bay, whether or not people were abused or tortured, I talked to the men about what they experienced there. Take a listen to what they said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NASSER (through translator): It is a jail. So there will be different difficulties in a jail that we have faced. And now since I'm a free man today, I would like to forget about all that. I don't really want to even think about those days.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Well, meantime, there is mixed reaction from people in Bermuda to former Gitmo detainees living among them. Some wish they had been given a say as to whether to accept the four Chinese leaders. Others say the men weren't convicted of anything and should fit into Bermuda's diverse population. The four men were flown in by plane from Cuba to Bermuda Wednesday night. They are living together in an apartment and are free to roam about the island as they choose.
Over in the Pacific, the island nation of Palau has offered to take in 13 remaining Uighur detainees from Gitmo. But it's not a done deal yet. Palau's president says the likelihood that the Muslim separatists will arrive on the tiny island nation is about 50/50. And even if they do, it wouldn't happen for two to three months.
Now, again, the Uighurs say they cannot return to China because they're considered violent separatists there and would likely be arrested.
A lot of you are weighing in on all of these subjects. Everything we're putting on the air right now. MADNews102 says, "I can't believe that we did this. After 9/11, we freaked out and put anyone we thought was a terrorist in Gitmo."
Also, we want to know what's on your mind tonight. Twitter, Facebook, MySpace or iReport.com. Your comment can get on the air as well.
More of my exclusive conversation with former Guantanamo Bay detainees in a few moments.
Plus: Severe weather across the Plains tonight. Our Jacqui Jeras is watching it all for you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Well, this mission, this part of the mission is scrubbed for now. NASA has cancelled today's planned launch of the space shuttle Endeavour. The reason: a hydrogen leak on the shuttle. And it won't be ready to lift-off until Wednesday -- Wednesday at the earliest.
But there is another problem here: That's the same day that NASA wants to launch an unmanned spacecraft to the moon. Mission controllers plan to meet tomorrow to talk about their next step.
Our Jacqui Jeras is joining us now in the severe weather center -- where we hear there is stormy weather in the Plains, Jacqui.
JACQUI JERAS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: A whole bunch of it, Don. You know, we started off with one little watch. And now, we've got them lined up from South Dakota, all the way down into Texas -- and Texas literally has been the hot bed of activity in terms of record temperatures today. Corpus Christi hit 97, and then severe storm. So, it's a lot of hail. Golf ball sized hail reported earlier in Motley County.
And right now, we're concerned about one cell right here that could be producing a tornado. This is for Haskell County in Texas, tornado warning -- this is the Doppler radar-indicated tornado. And you can bet your bottom dollar we're going to see a whole lot of hail associated with that thing as well.
Tornado watches here in Colorado, Pueblo, Colorado, springs up towards the Denver area, to Fort Collins and then stretching on up towards the Hot Springs area. And these threats of severe weather will be on going through the evening and possibly lingering into the overnight.
Now, the northeastern corridor, you know, it's not too bad. We had some rain showers, some isolated thunderstorms -- not really anything in the way of severe weather.
But if you're trying to travel today -- oh, man, I know it's been a real problem for you. Ground stop at Denver because of the thunderstorms and low clouds; over an hour at LaGuardia; JFK an hour. Check this out, Newark, more than two hours; Philadelphia an hour and 10 minutes. We've got some thunderstorms and delays in Orlando as well, 15 to 30 minutes there.
Things, hopefully, will be clearing up later on tonight and tomorrow for your travels. Severe weather is expected tomorrow afternoon again in the Plains. This time, more focus here and then on into the middle Mississippi River Valley.
And, of course, we'll both be here, Don, and I'll be tracking for you.
LEMON: All right. Thank you, Jacqui.
Six Flags went downhill and fast. But it may be back on track soon. The theme park company has filed for bankruptcy due to more than $2 billion in debt. It's asking the court to sign off on a restructuring plan that's already been OK'ed by lenders. The CEO says the filing won't affect day-to-day operations at its parks.
Well, it's stating the obvious, but gas prices are on the way up again. Why? Our Christine Romans put it all together for us.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When you fill up the gas tank, you buy more than just gasoline, you're buying expectations about the economy and anxiety over all the bailouts.
KEVIN KERR, KERRALTER.COM: It's absolutely vital to understand that this weak dollar that we've been seeing, not only from the fear of future inflation but, of course, all the money that the Fed has been printing. That is weakened the dollar further and if that dollar continues to drop, you're going to see all commodities -- especially energy and metals -- climb.
ROMANS: That's right. You can blame at least partly government bailout. Here's why: Investors are nervous about all the money the U.S. is borrowing to pay for the auto bailouts, bank rescues, stimulus efforts and tax cuts. All those debts can hurt the value of the dollar and spark inflation for higher prices down the road. That makes oil and commodities more expensive.
Even though demand for gas is down -- yet, gas prices are rising anyway. Barely a month ago, the government said $2.30 would be the peak for the summer -- wrong. Gas prices raised through there with barely a look back. At $60 a barrel, few worried about oil prices hurting those delicate green shoots of economic growth.
Now, crude oil prices have topped $71 a barrel, the highest in eight months. Goldman Sachs raised its target to $85 by the end of the year. And there are real fears about what higher energy prices will do to battered consumers.
PETER BEUTEL, CAMERON HANOVER: As prices rise, they do take money out of consumers' pockets. They raise the specter of inflation, which makes interest rates higher and that hurts the economy.
ROMANS: He says, every 10 cents of gas price increases is $40 million a day out of consumers' wallets.
Christine Romans, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: All right, if you were fleeing your country, would you go to war-torn Afghanistan? That is what I asked two former Gitmo detainees when I met them face-to-face. More of my exclusive conversation -- straight ahead.
Also: Cleaning, cataloging and returning the personal belongings of air crash victims. It's not easy, but it is necessary.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: OK. Let's recap our top stories for you.
Turmoil in Iran: Street protests are heating up as President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad celebrates a reelection victory. The government says Ahmadinejad won Friday's presidential election with over 60 percent of the vote. But his opposition says there were blatant violations in the ballot counting. Cell phone and Internet communications and other services appear to have been cut or severely disrupted.
Let's get back now to my exclusive interview from Hamilton, Bermuda, where four Gitmo detainees are relocated. Two of them spoke with me face-to-face.
I want you to know that this is a rare interview with men who have been living in isolation since being detained at Gitmo seven years ago. We rarely hear from them. We don't know what life is like for many people who had been captured and detained there. They were captured back in Afghanistan, and also in Afghanistan after the U.S. began in October of 2001.
Now, one of the men told me -- as a matter of fact, both of them told me -- that they are not terrorists. And they said through a translator that they did not receive any training at terrorist camps in Afghanistan.
The men I talked to are Chinese Uighurs, that's their name. They are from China's far western province of Xinjiang and they are Muslim. The former detainees were captured in 2001 -- as I said -- in Afghanistan and Pakistan, but the Pentagon determined last year that they were not enemy combatants. Nonetheless, the Uighurs are considered violent separatists by Chinese authorities. So, they will not be returning to China because of persecution fears.
During my conversation with former detainee Khalil Abdul Nasser, I asked him how he and some other Uighurs ended up in Afghanistan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KHALIL ABDUL NASSER, FMR. GITMO DETAINEE (through translator): Like I have said earlier because of the oppression of the brutal Chinese government dictatorship. I had to leave my family. I had to leave my country because I want to live a peaceful life somewhere. It was difficult to go any other places because of the visa issues and the passport. At that time Afghanistan was an easy place to go. Without those issues. That's why I ended up there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And after seven years in Guantanamo Bay, the whole time claiming their innocence, I asked the men about what it felt like to finally be free.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NASSER (through translator): It has been a difficult time for me. I regret that I wasn't freed soon because I'm innocent. And I have been in jail for so many years. My life has been passed seven years of my life. So I feel bad that it took so long for me to be free.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: What are they doing now in Bermuda? How is Bermuda reacting to these men? We'll have more on that at 10:00 p.m. Eastern. We go in-depth on former Gitmo detainees now living in Bermuda.
So far, 50 bodies have been pulled from the Atlantic Ocean in the area where Air France flight 447 disappeared two weeks ago. Search crews are still looking for the flight data and cockpit voice recorders. Unless they can be found, investigators may never be able to determine the cause of the crash. The airbus was carrying 228 passengers and crew members when it vanished way off the coast of Brazil.
After any air disaster the recovery effort includes a search for personal effects. Seemingly, insignificant items can be very important to grieving families. CNN's Sean Callebs reports from Ft. Worth, Texas.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At first glance, they are forgettable items. Shattered sunglasses, a small purse, shredded clothing, negatives, a Marine Corps pin. They all belong to people who were in a plane crash. And not these items mean the world to loved ones. They were retrieved by global BMS, the only company working with U.S. Airlines to recover personal items after a crash.
(on camera): Look at this. Doesn't the shear violence of what happened really hit home when you see this?
MARK ROCCO, SENIOR VICE PRES., GLOBAL BMS: Oh, yeah. It's - it certainly does. We recognize we're here to serve the people.
CALLEBS (voice-over): BMS gave me an exclusive tour of the warehouse that processes personal effects from air disasters. A company executive Mark Rocco goes through a crash site with emergency officials in the immediate aftermath of the tragedy. Scores of his employees will salvage anything they can. It is sobering, somber work.
ROCCO: You'll shed tears like everybody else when you talk about stories and you will tear up when you go back on those.
CALLEBS: Carriers pay BMS millions of dollars after a disaster to make sure the job is done right. ROCCO: It is clean, safe to handle and it's odor free. So you don't smell anything from the incident, no jet fuel, no smoke odor, et cetera.
CALLEBS: A pilot's wings, perhaps the last photographs a person ever took, shredded clothes, socks, BMS carefully wraps and returns all items.
ROCCO: We wrap them like it's the most important thing they'll ever see.
We don't want it to look like a gift or like we don't want it to look like it was just thrown in a box.
CALLEBS: This weathered Michael Connelly book means the world to Dan Vinton, one of those that walked away from the miracle on the Hudson.
DAN VINTON, US AIRWAYS FLIGHT 1549 SURVIVOR: As bad as this looks, it is readable. We are just blessed that we're here as a family together and lucky.
CALLEBS: In 1996, Congress passed the Aviation Disaster Family Assistance Act. Mandating airlines to do everything possible to return items to survivors or the next of kin. Items are photographed, catalogued and BMS returns what it can and it may seem like a repetitive job, but Dan Watson who takes all the pictures for BMS says there is no question some stand out.
DAN WATSON, GLOBAL BMS: Capt. Sullenberger's library book.
CALLEBS: Of course, Sully is the hero pilot that landed the US Air jet on the Hudson River. Once all the items have been categorized and a few months after the crash, family members can look at a secure website to claim items. As you may expect, the job gives Rocco a new outlook on life.
ROCCO: It's a very humbling experience. You know, one that you don't take life for granted. So you're thankful to see the sun come up every day.
CALLEBS: Sean Callebs, CNN, Ft. Worth, Texas.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: The battle of a California gay marriage ban heats up. And a major political player joins the fight.
Also, tracking hate mongers across America. We found out that so-called lone gunmen are not alone.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right. Let's talk now about the fight over same sex marriage in California because really it just keeps growing here. And more people are joining in the fray. The latest California attorney general Jerry Brown filed papers in federal court supporting a challenge to Proposition eight. That is a measure that bans gay marriage in that state. The one that California supreme court refused to lift. Brown calls the proposition unconstitutional.
Now this is becoming an extremely contentious issue on both sides. We know that. So we want to bring in now California attorney general Jerry Brown. He joins us tonight from San Francisco. Thank you so much, sir, for joining us. I understand you have been stuck in traffic. We know how traffic it is there in San Francisco.
JERRY BROWN, CALIFORNIA ATTORNEY GENERAL: We're right here.
LEMON: You're there now.
BROWN: Traffic wasn't bad at all.
LEMON: OK. So why did you jump on this battle now? Why are you going against what many are saying are what the voters of California want?
BROWN: Well, actually I didn't jump in the battle at all. The battle was brought to me when the attorney general was made a defendant in an action challenging the ban on same sex marriage which is Proposition 8. And that's a federal court case, and as we evaluated the law, that law, we believe, says that to deprive the same sex couples of the right to marriage while you're giving 18,000 couples that right violates the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment.
As a matter of fact, our own court found that there was a fundamental liberty interest in not only marriage, but extending marriage rights to same sex couples. They ruled that. Now, it's true the voters carved out an exception and said well it wouldn't apply. But the federal court has a different standard. And the fundamental liberty interest that the California supreme court found, we believe, is enshrined in the federal equal protection and due process clause enshrined in the 14th amendment. By the way, this is similar to what happened way back in the '60s when the people of California overwhelmingly voted for a ballot measure to strip away a certain fair housing law. And the U.S. Supreme Court struck it down. And the California attorney general argued against the law of California which the voters have passed because the attorney general owes a duty to the federal constitution which is superior to the state laws.
LEMON: OK. All right. If you think that this is a federal issue and you were the attorney general here, where do you see this going? Do you see that same sex couples will be allowed eventually to get married in California?
BROWN: I think that will definitely happen. You can never be completely confident about a federal court. But I think there is a strong possibility that the courts, the Ninth Circuit or rather the district court and then the Court of Appeals will rule on this. And then eventually it will get to the U.S. Supreme Court. It will take a few years but given the fact that more states are extending marriage to same sex couples, this is becoming embedded into the law. And once you find this liberty interest, it's hard to say well some get it and some don't when there's no real basis for distinction.
LEMON: And -
BROWN: I think that's where the law is evolving at this point.
LEMON: Attorney General, I had to ask you this, do you think that once it gets to the Supreme Court, and you said it's going to spend some time there, but once it does if it does, as you say, you think it will pass?
BROWN: Well, let me say - it's possible that the federal courts will rule that the California situation is totally unique in that California granted marriage rights to same sex couples and in so doing, found the right to this marriage was fundamental. And then it was taken away. So given that unique situation, the Supreme Court may just leave it to this particular region of federal courts. But again, they may say by that time, this is something they have to bite into and make a decision. And, yes, it will be very close. This is a contested idea. There are strong feelings on both sides. But I would say that this extension of liberty to same sex couples is - is the wave of the future.
LEMON: All right. Thank you very much. California attorney general Jerry Brown there. You heard it. He's a law man, he's prediction of where this will go. Thank you.
I want to continue this discussion with Andrew Pugno. He is attorney for Protect Marriage, a group that sponsored Proposition 8. So there you go. You heard the California attorney general. He says the law is, if you look at the law, sir, then it appears that marriage between two men or two women in California will soon be legal even with Proposition eight. It will be overturned.
ANDREW PUGNO, ATTORNEY, PROTECT MARRIAGE: Well, I think that one thing that has been omitted is that never before has a federal court ever said that there is a federal constitutional right to same sex marriage. So what is being asked for here, really is to change the law, to make new laws. And so I think that's a very fairly substantial obstacle for those that are trying to change the definition of marriage.
LEMON: What - explain that.
PUGNO: Well, the current federal precedent, when there have been test cases in the past seeking to have declared a federal right to same sex marriage, the federal courts have said, no, there is not. Essentially what you're seeing here is a new case trying to reverse what the current state of the law is, you know, under the federal constitution.
LEMON: What he says - you know, I'm not a law person. I'm not a lawman at all. I'm just listening to his interview and listening to both sides. He says there is a precedent back in the '60s. I'm sure you heard him on the air. He says that this precedent will handle whatever challenges that they have with same-sex and Proposition 8. PUGNO: Well that, example that was given by the attorney general is perhaps the only time that the attorney general has affirmatively gone against the state law. Even though his duty is to defend the laws that the people enact that, is probably the only time in California history that the attorney general has essentially jumped the fence and -
LEMON: I think what he just said though, he said - it was his job to defend the law and not necessarily -
PUGNO: Federal law.
LEMON: The people. I mean -
PUGNO: That's correct. And at that time it was very clearly clear federal law that said what the voters had done was unconstitutional. This is the opposite of that case. This is where federal law agrees with what the people of California have said. And so the attorney general is trying to not just enforce the federal constitution but actually change how it is interpreted in the federal courts. But most importantly, I think the people of California have got to be very frustrated to see their vote continually challenged. It was a very, very clearly spoken November. There was a full legal challenge and our state supreme court just finished saying two weeks ago that proposition eight is valid. And it was fine for the voters to pass it. And it's just got to be frustrating for the people to see this go right back into it again to see their vote challenged.
LEMON: It's interesting. You know, when you listen to the responses to people and to many people, this is - is this a civil right? A civil right for people to be able to marry whomever they want. And for a majority of people, whether right or wrong, most people don't see it that way. That is a civil right and not something that is - that should be given to a majority. Because a majority of people were not for people of different races to get married and a majority of people are against a lot of things there are civilly wrong.
PUGNO: Well, I think the effort to liken the true civil rights movement with this effort to redefine marriage has really fallen flat. I mean most civil rights leaders just your average people who have an understanding of what the civil rights movement was all about, in many cases take offense with the comparisons that what we're seeing today, trying to change the definition of marriage is akin to the oppressive persecution and discrimination that you saw against people based on race. There is just no comparison in that. And that argument really, with the average person just does not make any sense.
LEMON: Well, I don't know about the average person. But there are some in the civil rights movement who say that it is not the same argument. They can see the similarities. But it is not exactly the same because you're talking, as they say, about people of opposite sex but maybe people of opposite color as well. So I see what you're saying. And we appreciate it. Thank you both for joining us. And I want to make sure Pugno.
PUGNO: Pugno.
LEMON: Thank you very much. Andrew Pugno. Attorney for Protect Marriage. We appreciate it.
Here's what you guys are saying. Cynical_redhead saying says the fact that same sex marriage is even up for debate is disturbing, equal rights should be a given. Jayne Trazom says I'm not trying to force you to get married. I'm just asking for the right I deserve. ATL Trig Guy says I think the Prop 8 battle in California is never going to end.
TheREal_Ness says marriage is not the concern of government, it's the spiritual union of two people is a sacred issue not a state issue. Twitter, Facebook, MySpace, ireport.com is how you get your responses on the air and how we show you appreciation. Thanks for watching. Thanks for contributing.
Tracking hate in America. After this week's Holocaust Museum shooting, we want to know what makes domestic extremists tick? What fuels their rage? And what makes them snap? We're digging much deeper for you.
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LEMON: The man charged with killing a security officer at the U.S. Holocaust Museum is expected to survive. Mourners placed flowers at the site where 88-year-old James Von Brunn is accused of shooting the 39-year-old Steven Johns. The lifelong white supremacist reportedly shot Johns after the guard opened the door to the museum for him on Wednesday. Other guards shot back, wounding Von Brunn. Tonight, an FBI statement says he is in critical, but stable condition. Meantime, hundreds of people stood patiently in line yesterday to visit the holocaust museum after it re-opened.
There is a deeper tragedy to what happened at the Holocaust Museum. It appears to reflect a rising tide of hate in this country. Here's CNN David Mattingly.
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DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In less than two months, so-called lone wolf extremists killed six people in four states. Three Pittsburgh cops were murdered in April when they were called to a house on a domestic disturbance. May 31st, a Kansas doctor who performed late term abortions was gunned down in church. June 1st, a soldier fresh out of boot camp was killed outside a recruiting office in Little Rock and nine days later, a security officer was shot and killed at Washington's Holocaust Museum.
DAN LEVITAS, AUTHOR "THE TERRORIST NEXT DOOR": There's a dual hatred at work. On the one hand there is really rabid hatred and fear of the United States government. On the other hand, let's not forget what the tremendous religious prejudice and religious motivations that fuel all of these actions.
MATTINGLY: There were warnings that violence like this was on the rise. In February, the southern poverty law center reported a jump in the number of hate groups. From 888 in 2007 to 926 in 2008. A four percent leap attributed to racist extremists enflamed by the election of President Obama. In April, a Department of Homeland Security report cited political and economic factors stating "the threat posed by lone wolves and small terrorist cells is more pronounced than in past years."
THOMAS FUENTES, FMR. FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: So normally, they're individuals that are basically dysfunctional in the fact they're having difficulty coping with a political system or policies that are in effect and feel that they have no recourse in their mind but to lash out violently.
MATTINGLY: The man accused of killing Dr. George Tiller was described by his ex-wife as radically anti-government and anti- abortion. The man accused of murdering a soldier in Little Rock allegedly told police he was retaliating for the mistreatment of Muslim women and children by the U.S. military. And the accused killers in both the Holocaust Museum and the Pittsburgh ambush reportedly held anti-Semitic beliefs and feared that government would take their guns away. All of the suspects have plead not guilty with the exception of the Holocaust Museum suspect. He remains in critical condition after he was shot by security officers.
(on camera): One trait common among these extremists is their unpredictability. At least two of the recent suspects were known to authorities, but not believed to be an immediate threat. Experts say it's almost impossible to know when a lone wolf will be moved to violence and just as tough to know who will be his targets.
David Mattingly, CNN, Atlanta.
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LEMON: We will have much, much more on hate in America tonight at 10:00 p.m. eastern. "Hate in America," what provokes these violent attacks. Warnings from the Department of Homeland Security about domestic terrorism and the fine line between free speech and hate crimes. Make sure you join us tonight at 10:00 and be part of our discussion on Twitter, Facebook, Myspace or ireport.
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LEMON: You know, with recessions putting profits in the toilet, one Port-O-Potty company is feeling the ripple effect as it tries to stay afloat. CNN's John Zarrella has tonight's "Money and Main Street."
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JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Swinging high in the air, a clean Port-O-Potty is a construction worker's best friend especially when you work up in the nosebleed section. This is Orlando's new events center. It will seat close to 20,000 when it opens next year. But right now, the only seats that John Sharp Jr. is concerned about are the ones in the 42 portable toilets he's placed on this job site for its 400 workers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How's that chemical work? Do you like it?
ZARRELLA: With construction bottoming out, Sharpe's company, Comfort House, is part of the ripple effect. 95 percent of his Port- O-Potties were on construction sites and business isn't flowing like it used to. Profit margins are thinner. So he's had to layoff about a third of his workers. A sea of toilet in his storage area sit unrented. But he says it's not a sign of desperation.
JOHN SHARP, JR., COMFORT HOUSE: We're not in a position where we feel we have to liquidate anything because we own what we have.
ZARRELLA: And that's part of the business plan, he says, that's helped his family survive and ward off the secession and the bottom feeders to see their Port-O-Potty sitting and thinking he is desperate to be brought out.
SHARP: Had we spent outside our means, had we grown and leveraged everything, financed everything, we'd be in a really tough situation. Good business model, storing money, saving money when you make money. Keeping things simple.
ZARRELLA: This is the fourth recession for Comfort House. John Sharp, Sr. has learned plenty from the first three.
JOHN SHARP, SR., COMFORT HOUSE: My boat is a 12-foot John boat I use it for duck hunting. That's my yacht. And that's pretty much the extent of my extravagance. We kind of live by that motto. The money that's made in the company kind of stays in the company.
ZARRELLA: And as long as these toilets stay rented, Sharp says they all smell like money.
John Zarrella, CNN, Orlando.
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LEMON: All right, John.
I'm Don Lemon at the CNN Center Atlanta. See you back here at 10:00 Eastern. Make sure you join us. More news right now with Campbell Brown.
