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Who Will Get Custody of Michael Jackson's Children?; Bernard Madoff Sentenced
Aired June 29, 2009 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ALI VELSHI, CNN ANCHOR: Michael Jackson is gone, but his estate, well, whatever that is, has to be dealt with. And what about his three children, 12, 11 and 7 years old? We have word today about a custody decision, or at least a custody filing, within the Jackson family and a decision about who gets to keep those children. But that is in a second.
I want to show you some photos you probably haven't seen yet. Take a look at this. This is Michael Jackson in one of the last photos taken of him. The date is May 6. He's with Kenny Ortega, the director of the big comeback show that was in rehearsal.
Another picture, look at this, Michael and Ortega and some cast members of the show called "This Is It." It's reported that Michael Jackson spent the final night of his life, Wednesday night, on stage at the Staples Center in Los Angeles performing a full run-through of the show. People who were there say he was totally engaged and energetic.
OK, back to the news today about Michael Jackson's three children and who will care for them in the long term. Don Lemon is outside the Jackson home in Encino, California. We're going to get to him in a second with the latest.
But I want to just play you some sound of some -- a piece of a press conference that we just watched with Joe Jackson, Michael Jackson's family, and the family lawyer. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE JACKSON, FATHER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: I established a record company with Marshall. And the company is called Ranch Record, distributed by Blue Star and Blu-ray.
So, we have a lot of good artists fixing to come out. Now, I was asked that question. And I answered, just like it was asked, because they wanted to know what else I was doing.
Now, the family and I are very proud to see all of you come out here and then -- and help us with this whole situation, because we know that we do have fans all over the world. We know that we are loved all over the world.
But one thing that I wish could have happened, I wish that Michael could be here to see all this. Had to wait until something happened like this before -- before it could be realized. Michael is -- was the superstar. He's that superstar all over the world. He was loved in every country in the United States. And in every country all over the world, he was loved.
But one thing Michael didn't know is, he didn't know how strong this would be, because he tried his heart to please everybody, the sick. He donated so much money to the sick. He helped the blind. He helped everybody that needed help. And he was glad to do it.
I have seen Michael help so many people. And, sometimes, he would go and cry about it because he felt sorry for the people that he was helping.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: Don Lemon's with us. He's outside the family compound.
Don, I'm going to get to the custody issues or the issues about Michael Jackson's children in a second, but what was Joe Jackson talking about? I know you had a conversation with him last night. What was he just talking about?
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Well, what he was talking about was yesterday on the red carpet at the BET Awards, we were there, the only network that was live during that red carpet ceremony. And Joe Jackson came over to us right at the end of our broadcast. And I got to ask him some questions. He had a whole entourage of people with him.
But he's saying in his statement just now that I asked him about a record company. I didn't. How would I know? I asked him about how Michael Jackson's family was doing. I asked him about funeral arrangements. And I want you to take a listen. Here's how he responded.
But, first, I want to tell you I spoke with Joe Jackson one-on- one and the Reverend Al Sharpton after this press conference that was just held moments ago, but back to the BET Awards and that question yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Do you guys have any -- do you know anything, Mr. Jackson, about funeral arrangements? Have you had time to...
JACKSON: Not yet. We haven't got to that yet, but we're working on that.
LEMON: Yes.
JACKSON: This is Marshall here. I want you...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Thank you.
How is -- you said your wife is well. What about Janet and the rest of the family, the daughters and everything?
JACKSON: They're all doing fine.
But I want to make this statement. This is a real good statement here. Marshall and I, we own a record company called -- tell him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ranch Records, OK, distributed by Blu-ray technology. And that's his next step.
LEMON: And that's your next step.
There -- there have been -- talk to us about the 60th -- your 60th wedding anniversary. As I understand, in Las Vegas a couple weeks ago, the entire family was there, and Michael said that he had wanted the members of his family to come...
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON: My 60th -- my birthday?
LEMON: Your -- your wedding anniversary, you and Katherine in Las Vegas.
JACKSON: Oh. Oh. That was fantastic. Yes, it was. A lot of people were there and a lot of people I was glad to see.
It was a fantastic job that was done. That's first one though. That was our first wedding anniversary we had. And they came out. Fantastic.
LEMON: Yes. What's next for you guys?
JACKSON: We've got a lot fixing to happen, but I can't really announce it right now, OK?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, that was Joe Jackson yesterday at the BET Awards.
And then again today, he came out to clarify those statements and again talking about, Ali, that record company. Now, after that press conference, I -- I gave him another opportunity to clarify those statements. And some people, you know, who had e-mailed and called me and called CNN about it said, well, maybe it was his frame of mind.
His son just died, so maybe he wasn't in a great frame of mind. I asked him about all of that. And I want you to take a listen to what Joe Jackson had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: I wanted to talk to, Joe, about you felt compelled to come out and clarify the statements yesterday.
How you doing? Good to see you.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Why did you feel compelled to come out and clarify those statements?
JACKSON: Because it's my son, you know? And I wanted to make sure the whole world knows that -- what a superstar he was like that all over the world.
And I just wish -- I just wish he could have been here alive to see this happening...
LEMON: Right.
JACKSON: ... and not to wait until he's passed and then the recognition. Yes.
LEMON: And some people said they understood part of it, because, in your grief, that, you know, who knows what happens in grief, and you know, what state of mind you're in.
JACKSON: To who? To me or him?
LEMON: Yes, sir.
JACKSON: To me?
LEMON: Yes, sir.
JACKSON: I'm a pretty strong guy, but at least -- at least I suffer, I cry on the inside. A lot of people will see tears coming on the outside down the face. Not me. I take it in here. But I'm strong.
LEMON: How do you feel about the -- all this stuff that's been released about the autopsy and leaked and all that?
JACKSON: Well, the autopsy and the leaks and all that stuff, you know, we're waiting on the second autopsy. We're waiting on that one.
LEMON: And we -- you talked about the questions. You said yesterday that there were questions. You do have some real concerns.
JACKSON: Yes, I do.
LEMON: What are those concerns?
JACKSON: I will answer those later on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have got to go.
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON: We have got to go.
(CROSSTALK)
JACKSON: My publicist -- my publicist say I have to go.
LEMON: Now, Reverend...
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Got to go. We got to go.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: He said that he was responding to a question from me about -- about where it was going.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Joe, Joe, Joe, how would you like...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Reverend...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sorry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And you can see just how all the media were clamoring around to try to get questions in. And we were the only ones that were able to get our questions answered at that press conference, after the press conference, just a short time ago by Joe Jackson.
(CROSSTALK)
VELSHI: Very unusual conversation...
LEMON: Yes, go ahead.
VELSHI: ... about the record company and all of that.
And I appreciate you trying to get some clarity on that. We didn't get a great deal of information about a memorial service or a funeral service. He did say something about what sort of funeral it might be.
LEMON: He did.
He said it was going to be -- there's no such thing, he said, when it concerns a star as he said like Michael Jackson of having a small, private service. He said Michael was the biggest star in the world, and, therefore, it was going to be a grand service.
And I asked him, I said, do you have -- do you know about funeral arrangements? And he said, not right now. I said, well, can you at least give us some idea of a time frame? And he said, I just answered your question. Not right now. They don't know.
I can tell you, Ali, that the Reverend Al Sharpton did come here today. His main reason he tells me to come here today was to get the family to come to some sort of consensus about funeral arrangements and services for Michael Jackson.
The reverend said that he knows, from experience, because of James Brown, how these things can blow up and become even -- an even bigger circus than it is now.
And, Ali, I have -- I do have some news that I want to tell you about, if you will.
VELSHI: Yes.
LEMON: We heard about Katherine Jackson, Michael Jackson's mother, filing for custody of Michael Jackson's three children.
CNN is also learning that Joseph Jackson and Katherine Jackson have filed a petition for letters of administration for Michael Jackson's estate. They did that today, Monday, 6/29. The petition was filed in Los Angeles Superior Court.
There is a case number. And it reads on and on that they're filing a waiver, requesting that they become the petitioner, seeking appointment as administrator for the decedent.
And the mother is really in charge of that. When I got here just about two hours ago, just as the Reverend Al Sharpton was arriving, Katherine Jackson was leaving. I'm not sure if she was going to file these papers, but she left as the Reverend Sharpton was coming in.
(CROSSTALK)
VELSHI: But, Don, she has been giving...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: ... very interesting day here at the estate, Ali, and I'm sure more is going to come out of here.
(CROSSTALK)
VELSHI: Yes, hard to follow all of the developments.
She has been -- Katherine Jackson, Michael Jackson's mother, has been given guardianship of the children. Is that correct?
LEMON: Right. Right.
She has been given guardianship. They filed those papers yesterday, which is very interesting.
VELSHI: Yes.
LEMON: They did it on a Sunday. Usually the courts are closed on Sunday, but they filed the papers yesterday. And if you read -- I have been reading these papers. I haven't gotten to the end. I only got to about page 10 or 11 or so.
But on page five, it says who the person or persons who are filing to get custody of the children are. One was Katherine Jackson. The other one was Joe Jackson. It listed as Katherine Jackson's address the address here, where we're standing, the compound in Encino.
But, for Joe Jackson's address, it said to be determined. Don't know if that means anything, but I found that very interesting when going through those court documents, Ali.
VELSHI: Yes. And these documents are very interesting.
In fact, on page 13, I have got them right with me, one of the things is when they're talking about Prince Michael Jackson II, and it lists the father as Michael Jackson, says deceased, and then right next to it -- got it highlighted here -- you might be able to see it -- it says mother and it says none right next to it.
So, these documents do give us quite a story. You have been on this, don...
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Hey, Ali?
VELSHI: Yes.
LEMON: Yes.
Let me say, and that's because Debbie Rowe, who is the mother of two of the children -- we don't know who the mother of the youngest child is, but Debbie Rowe...
VELSHI: Yes.
LEMON: And she got a large, a substantial cash settlement or a cash amount for giving up custody of the children.
VELSHI: Right.
LEMON: So she has really no legal custody of the children, and who knows what can happen after that?
We spoke to attorneys who are saying that since they don't have a parent at this point, maybe she can come back in and file for that. But I do want to say this. The family, the family, for the most part, the Jacksons, don't want this to become a circus.
They want to have some sort of harmony, some sort of peace. They want Michael Jackson's legacy to be the focus of all of this, and not this controversy. But because of what's happening and because of the dad -- and I hate to say that -- it is becoming that way.
Some of the things that they don't want to come out are coming out because of the way that one family member is handling this. I hate to say that, because I know the family is grieving right now, but the truth is the truth, Ali. VELSHI: All right, we will -- you have been on this very consistently and you will continue to be there. There are lot of people waiting for new information about what has happened, particularly how we're going to memorialize Michael Jackson and what the funeral arrangements are going to be and the future of these children.
Don, thanks very much. We will continue to check in with you -- Don Lemon in Los Angeles covering the story of Michael Jackson.
Now, if it were sold on an infomercial -- I mean, we're all familiar with this, right? Look at this stuff, OxiClean, Kaboom. I have got some with me here, but there's a -- I have got it right here, if anybody needs to clean anything. There's a good chance if it were being sold on TV, Billy Mays was the man doing the selling.
The well-known pitch man died over the weekend. Today, we are getting a better idea of what happened. And that is surprising some people. We are going to you the latest on Billy Mays in a moment.
Sonia Sotomayor is looking to be the next Supreme Court justice. Today, her potential future colleagues threw out one of her decisions. We are going to tell you about that and how it affects her appointment next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: Bernard Madoff ran a Ponzi scheme so large, well, they should rename Ponzi schemes. They should call them Madoffs. Today, he was sentenced for it. Did the punishment match the crime?
That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: All right, we're following a number of stories, including the one about Bernard Madoff.
Unlike his many victims, admitted swindler Bernard Madoff will qualify for free meals. Today, in Manhattan, U.S. District Judge David (sic) Chin sentenced the Wall Street felon to 150 years in prison -- that's the maximum sentence -- for defrauding his well-to-do investors out of billions of dollars.
In fact, many of those investors were not well-to-do. There were some people who lost their life savings who didn't have much money. Madoff spoke for about 10 minutes in the hushed federal courtroom. He referred to his own crimes as -- quote -- "an error of judgment, a problem, and a tragic mistake."
Turning to some of his victims, Madoff said -- quote -- "I'm sorry. I know that doesn't help you."
Victims also spoke in court. Several sent letters and several spoke to our reporters afterward.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHARON LISSAUER, FORMER MADOFF INVESTOR: Of course I want him to apologize, but apologizing isn't -- I don't believe he's sorry. I don't believe he has any remorse.
And, if he really does, then I would love for him to give any -- I would love for him to disclose any hidden -- hidden assets that he or his family have. So, that's the only thing that would make the victims' lives a little bit better.
BURT ROSS, FORMER MADOFF INVESTOR: Bernard Madoff ends his life and that -- I urged the judge to do what he did, which was to sentence him to the rest of his life, so, when he leaves prison, which means after his death, and he leaves prison virtually unmourned by anybody on this Earth, that he will then go down to the depths of hell.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: All right, joining me from Stamford, Connecticut, Ashleigh Banfield, host of "Open Court," and from New York CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.
First of all, Jeff, he's 71 years old. He's going to jail for 150 years. Is there any appeal to a sentence? And if he is going to jail for the 150 years, how many years is that really for him?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: He could theoretically file an appeal. But, remember, this was a guilty plea. He pled guilty.
So, he could appeal his sentence, but he would have no chance of succeeding, because the judge warned him that this was a possibility. He didn't have to plead guilty. He chose to plead guilty. So, there's no realistic chance of an appeal.
Under federal law, a defendant is required to serve at least 80 percent of a sentence, which means about 120 years in this circumstance. So, this is a life sentence, period.
VELSHI: All right. And his defense, Ashleigh, was asking for a 12-year sentence.
The judge here said he was actually influenced by the testimony of victims in person and those that he had that had written in. I was wondering earlier what sort of impact those sort of things have on judges. What do you think about the fact that these victims all had negative things to say about Bernie Madoff, and the judge gave him sort of the high end of the sentence?
TOOBIN: Well, I...
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, TRUTV ANCHOR: Well, I think...
TOOBIN: Oh, I'm sorry.
(CROSSTALK)
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, TRUTV ANCHOR: ... it had a huge -- it had huge impact. Judge Chin even said so in the courtroom.
He said there was one particular widow who really struck him, the letter that she wrote suggesting that Bernie Madoff hugged her and suggested, you're in capable hands with me. And I'm paraphrasing here. But he said that really sort of struck him to the bone.
And I read through a lot of those letters, by the way, and they are just horrible. When you read them and you see the depth of despair that these victims are dealing with -- Judge Chin comes from humble beginnings and I think he was deeply affected by these people.
VELSHI: Jeff, you know, you and I have talked about this in the past. The justice side came down hard. And the judge wanted it to be a deterrent. And, clearly if you're in this business of defrauding people, 150 years is frightening.
But the enforcement side, the part that should have caught Bernie Madoff in the first place, is no different today than while he was committing his crimes.
TOOBIN: One of the many great unanswered questions about this case is, why did the SEC fail in this case? Why didn't they discover what was going on, particularly when they were handed the case on a silver platter and began an investigation?
(CROSSTALK)
VELSHI: Harry Markopolos, we heard about him. He was the -- he was the -- the guy who -- the whistle-blower. He went and gave the SEC information that he had studied that made -- made him think that something was wrong with Bernie Madoff and the way he was doing business. And the SEC wasn't able to -- to do anything about it.
TOOBIN: And that -- that's right. And there's another issue here of why Madoff got the max, is because he has not cooperated. He has not explained who else was working with him or where all the money is.
And that's something else Judge Chin said today. Judges take the issue of cooperation with the government very seriously. Madoff can be sorry all he wants, but he didn't help the government find the money and find his accomplices. And that's a big reason he got the max.
VELSHI: Well, Ashleigh, what do you think about that? Because if you look at all the money that was handed to Bernie Madoff, it's in excess of $13 million -- $13 billion, with a B. We look at that $50 billion or $65 billion, but that's sort of if the money had actually been invested -- $13 billion. The government seems to have recovered about $1.3 billion. Maybe they will get to two.
You think the money's hiding somewhere?
BANFIELD: Well, let me tell you this. Restitution isn't going to be ordered at least for another 90 days. And here's my big old guess. It might even take longer than that, because a lot of the federal prosecutors I have talked to in this case said the forensic accounting alone is going to take at least a year.
VELSHI: Yes.
BANFIELD: And they may never get to the bottom of it. I'm sure they probably will never get to the real bottom of it all.
But I will differ a little bit with Jeffrey in that I think that there is a valid issue in just the overwhelming essence of this sentence. It's crazy, 150 years consecutively. But even if they were able to sort of beat it down to what the federal probation department recommended, which is 50...
VELSHI: Yes.
BANFIELD: ... he's still going out in a box.
VELSHI: Right. Does that make -- does that make any difference? If it's more than 20 years for Bernie Madoff, does it make a difference whether it's 50 or 150? Is that a deterrent, do you think, Ashleigh?
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: Well, I think the issue was the deterrence to start with. That's what Judge Chin even said in his remarks. He said that this is a message to everybody.
He used words like extraordinarily evil and unprecedented and breach of trust. And I think this was obviously the message he was trying to send. But I think Jeff will back me up on this. No one has ever heard of a sentence like 150 years. That's usually reserved for serial killers who do away with about 20 different victims over 20 different years.
TOOBIN: Well, there actually is some -- there is a provision in the federal sentencing guidelines, which are now advisory, for mandatory life terms...
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: It has just never been done.
TOOBIN: Sorry?
BANFIELD: It's just never been done. Nobody -- I think the max that we have seen so far has been Ebbers at 25 years.
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: John Gotti had a life sentence. Timothy McVeigh had -- well, not Tim. He was executed. The -- I'm sorry. What's the guy...
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: A couple of those spies...
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: I think we're talking about different kinds of crimes, though, here. I think we're talking about...
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: ... people die.
(CROSSTALK)
VELSHI: For a financial crime, we have never seen anything like this.
TOOBIN: No, not for a financial crime.
(CROSSTALK)
BANFIELD: And, listen, you know, Ali, I want to add one thing that a lot of people aren't saying today.
And notwithstanding the horrors that these people are going to be dealing with the rest of their lives because they have been financially wiped out, we also have to remember that many of these people got themselves in and wholesale did all of their investments with Bernie Madoff.
VELSHI: Yes.
BANFIELD: So, that is part of this as well. These are not people who had absolutely no idea what could happen.
And, again, I got to repeat, notwithstanding the terrible things that have happened to all of these thousands of investors, but, again, they did make these choices to invest, some of them completely, with Bernie.
VELSHI: Right, although some of them were invested through other firms.
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: And that's a little unfair, I think.
BANFIELD: Yes, the feeder funds, too.
TOOBIN: It's an unwise way to manage your money, but I think people are entitled to think that the people they are investing in aren't engaged in massive fraud. It's a little bit of blaming the victim.
BANFIELD: They are entitled. They are. I think we're just trying to assess here apples and oranges, the kinds of crimes out there where you get a 150-year sentence, like I said, serial killers. These are usually reserved for the worst of the worst of the worst.
(CROSSTALK) VELSHI: But, either way, 150 years -- as you pointed out, 150 years or 50 years, for Bernie Madoff's purposes, they are about the same thing.
BANFIELD: It is the same.
VELSHI: Yes.
BANFIELD: It is the same. It's the message...
(CROSSTALK)
VELSHI: All right. So, the takeaway from this, though, Ashleigh, to your point, is, for our viewers, at least, they should understand that, please, just dot the I's and cross the T's. If something smells fishy with your investments, these were some -- some sophisticated investors who got taken in.
BANFIELD: Sure. Sure.
(CROSSTALK)
VELSHI: There were a lot of people, though, who weren't.
And, Jeff, to your point, we haven't fixed what was broken in the first place to have let Bernie Madoff get away with this.
TOOBIN: That's the real mystery here.
VELSHI: Yes.
TOOBIN: There are several mysteries. Who helped him? Where's all the money? How did the government drop the ball here? Those are the big ones.
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: We don't know the answer to any of those.
BANFIELD: And will he give up -- you know, will Bernie -- and a lot of financial news channels are talking about it today -- will Bernie end up giving up some real dirt on the SEC?
VELSHI: Well, we will keep you posted on that.
Ashleigh, good to see you. Thanks very much.
BANFIELD: You, too.
VELSHI: Jeff, good to see you, as well.
Well, he was as much of a brand as the products that he pitched on enumerable infomercials. Billy Mays died this weekend in his Florida home. Some people are surprised by that. Now we are finding out what happened to him. And we will take you inside a Central American military coup. The Honduran army overthrew President Manuel Zelaya, and the cameras were rolling. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: Lots of comments about Bernie Madoff and his sentencing -- 150 years in jail is what he was given today by Judge Dennis Chin.
Let's go over to Rick's MySpace account, and take a look at what some of you are saying. "The people who committed suicide because of Madoff ruining their lives got a death sentence. Madoff got off easy. He at least will have a roof over his head and three meals a day. Some of his victims were not so lucky."
Let's take a look at my Twitter account. And we have got srsean writing: "When a banker like Madoff goes to jail for the rest of his life for his crimes, it's a win for the people of the United States."
And over on Rick's Twitter: "One hundred and 150 years vs. many victims' lives and security -- 150 years doesn't bring back his victims' livelihoods. It's a good sentence."
We have had a number of people saying it's not long enough. Interestingly, we usually get two sides of an issue. We haven't had anybody saying it was too much.
All right, gunfire rang out. Armed soldiers entered his home. Moments later, the president of Honduras was whisked away to Costa Rica and a new president was installed in Honduras. That's the story you have been hearing for more than 24 hours.
But what does a military coup look like? I want you to watch this video. It shows supporters of that ousted president as their own military, the Honduran military, surrounded the presidential compound. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CROWD: (SHOUTING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: That's remarkable pictures.
President Manuel Zelaya has vowed to return to power. The United Nations has called for him to be reinstated, and the Obama administration says it considers Mr. Zelaya the only president of Honduras.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: I'm Billy Mays. I'm not, but talk about a guy who lived large. He was always touting this stuff. I feel OxiClean should make me strong. He could move some product. He really, really did. Put a handy gadget or some miracle washing stuff in Billy Mays' hands, stick a camera in his face, and literally consider it sold. Listen to this class. It's pitchman 101 from the master.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYS: They know it's better at getting out the spills, the spots and the splatters, whether they're ground in, speared on, or dried up, it doesn't matter. OxiClean lifts away stains detergents can leave behind, cleaner, brighter, and whiter. That's the power of OxiClean.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now unleash two cleaning powers in one detergent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MAYS: That's the power of OxiClean. That's the power of Billy Mays to move products.
Billy Mays died this weekend. We've heard his wife's anguished 911 call. It's difficult to listen to. I will play it for you in a second.
But let me bring in a friend and business partner of Billy Mays, A.J. Khubani. He's the man behind many of those products that Billy Mays held up to the camera. A.J. is the CEO of Telebrands. A.J., thanks for joining us. Were you as shocked as the rest of us to hear about Billy Mays' death?
A.J. KHUBANI, CEO, TELEBRANDS: I'm still shocked and I'm still a bit shaken. But I found out yesterday. At first I got an email from somebody I didn't know yesterday morning. I saw it on my blackberry, and I thought it was a bad joke. A lot of people have been sending out bad jokes about other people who have died, and I just didn't believe it at first.
So I called Billy Mays' cell phone right after that, and he didn't answer. And then I called up Anthony Sullivan, who was in Monte Carlo at a convention, and he confirmed right away. And I was really shaken by it. I have known Billy for about 15 years.
VELSHI: Couldn't have looked like a more vibrant guy. Talk about Anthony Sullivan, another fellow pitch man, both doing a reality show these days. Billy was -- really moved product better than most people could.
Tell me a little about his ability to sell product and how he decided what he was going to pitch.
KHUBANI: Telebrands has been in business for 26 years, and we used Billy quite a bit. But in my view, there is no better pitch man on earth than Billy Mays. He really knew how to do it.
And he grew up in the pitch business. He first pitched products on the Atlantic City boardwalk and really learned the trade there, and -- but he took it to the next level. He took it on to television with OxiClean, which became a phenomenally big seller. OxiClean eventually sold to Church and Dwight for over $300 million.
VELSHI: Church and Dwight, which is the same company that makes Arm and Hammer, and things like that, brands that people know. It's right in their home.
So whether or not you ever bought anything on TV, because Billy Mays or someone else is pitching it, the influence he's had has been much broader.
KHUBANI: Billy really knew how to pitch products. And he had the right feel, he had the right look. He knew how to relate to the common man on the street, because he was the common man.
VELSHI: What worked about him, A.J.? What worked? What was it that was Billy Mays was able to take a product and get people to pick up a phone and buy something?
KHUBANI: Well, it's a skill. It's something that he learned in the pitch market, and he continued to fine-tune and brought that same feel to TV. And he knew how to reach the hearts of the American people and get them to buy stuff.
And one of the things he did, his trademark, was he shouted at people. I asked him once, Billy, why do you shout all the time? He said because people listen to me when I shout.
So he knew how to reach the American people.
VELSHI: All right, A.J., stay with me. This is tough to listen to, but this is the 911 call that Billy Mays' wife made on Sunday morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell me exactly what happened.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't know. I just woke up and I went and I looked at him, and his lips are all purple.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you with him now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How old is he?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's 50.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is he awake?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is he breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. And he's cold. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's OK. We can still help him, OK? Did you see what happened?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ma'am, listen, we're going to help him until they get here. You hear me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. I want you to get him on the floor.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need to get him on the floor.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, let's do it very quickly. I want you to lay him flat on his back on the floor. Do not put any pillows behind his head.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don't put any pillows behind his head.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let me know when this is done.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We can't get him up, man. He's gone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: Did you, A.J., know Billy Mays' wife?
KHUBANI: I did know her. Debbie is a wonderful person. They had a terrific relationship. They loved each other tremendously. Billy would always talk about his wife.
And whenever he was on the road shooting or something, he always couldn't wait to get back home. He always made sure he made that last flight out to spend the night at home. He absolutely loved his wife, and it's really sad. I'm sure his wife doesn't know what to think or do at the moment.
VELSHI: Yes, it sounds like nobody knew. And I'm going to tell you a little about the autopsy. But the first thing we heard or the first thing a lot of people thought was it may have had something to do with the hard landing on a flight from Philadelphia to Tampa on Saturday.
Let's listen to this interview that he gave after this hard landing, after this flight came in for landing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYS: As we hit, you know, it was just, I mean, the hardest hit. All the top, you know, the things from the ceiling started dropping. And it hit me on the head, but I got a hard head.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: And that led people to think that might have had something to do with what happened.
I'll just tell you, the autopsy initial results have come out, and I'm reading this from the autopsy report from Hillsbury County.
"There's been speculation about an impact to the head that Mr. Mays received during a recent hard aircraft landing. The autopsy found no external or internal head trauma."
It goes on to say the autopsy revealed hypertensive and -- I can't say this word, a disease of the heart manifested by thickening of the muscular wall of the left ventricle and thickening of the walls of an artery supplying the heart muscle.
They were quite clear to say these are preliminary and they don't want to draw a conclusion from that. But it may have been that Billy was ill and he didn't know it -- A.J.?
KHUBANI: Yes, it looks like that's the case. I have known Billy for a long time. He seemed very healthy and very vibrant, except for when he had his hip replacement surgery last year. He was down for a little while.
But Billy was full of life, and very active. You saw his energy on TV before millions of people. And that's how people knew him.
VELSHI: All right. A.J., thanks for being with us. I appreciate it. A.J. Khubani join us now, talking about the life of Billy Mays.
The Supreme Court overturns a decision endorsed by the woman who hopes to be the next justice on the Supreme Court. Discrimination, the nation's highest court and Sonia Sotomayor, that's ahead.
But coming up next, we told you about South Carolina Governor Mark Sanford's affair with an Argentinean woman. Now we see her.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: The question has been vexing me. Who spilled the beans on Governor Mark Sanford? Let's keep that question in mind as demands for Sanford's resignation continue to mount.
Over the weekend, the "New York Times" reported the amorous emails that helped expose Sanford's illicit his affair were leaked by a paramour of Sanford's Argentinean mistress, Maria Bel Enchapur. But now Chapur is saying that's not how it happened.
In a written statement, Chapur says someone else hacked her computer last November 24th and later sent the damaging emails to the state newspaper in South Carolina.
Bottom line, we still don't know.
Something else we want to mention. Sanford's wife now says when the governor recently told her he needed to take time off, she specifically told him not to go see the mistress. But as we all now know, the governor did so anyway.
Here we see him, all by himself, headed toward his flight for the fateful encounter that has placed his governorship in jeopardy and probably doomed any chance that he might one day sit in the White House. But you never know.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: Her ride to the Supreme Court just got a little more interesting. You know who I mean, Federal Judge Sonia Sotomayor, President Obama's choice to replace the retiring Judge David Souter.
The judge and the president, surely you've heard the news that the Supreme Court today overturned a ruling that was endorsed by Sotomayor in a landmark reverse discrimination case.
As to the winners, they are a group of firefighters in New Haven, Connecticut, who sued after the city tossed out a promotions exam because white and Hispanic candidates fared better on it than did African-American candidates. Here are the firefighters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LT. MATTHEW MARCARELLI, NEW HAVEN FIRE DEPARTMENT: True vindication is the day we're that all going to pin our badges on, captain and lieutenant badges that we were entitled to based upon what the court said. That will be the ultimate vindication for all of us to set things right.
QUESTION: Was it worth it?
MARCARELLI: It was worth it, every minute of it. Right, guys?
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: All right, joining me now from New York again, CNN senior legal analyst, Jeff Toobin. Jeff, before we get to the politics and to the judge and what this does for Judge Sotomayor, let's talk about the guts of this case. Tell us what happened and whether this is a big deal.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, SENATOR LEGAL ANALYST, CNN: Well, this is certainly a big deal, because it deals with a large issue that the Supreme Court has been struggling with for several years.
And the bottom line issue is may employers, may universities, consider race in doling out government benefits, whether it's promotions, whether it's university admissions. The court has really been struggling with that issue.
Today's decision suggests they are moving towards a "no" answer, at least four -- five justices are. They are saying that any sort of use of race is inappropriate.
And the four justices in the minority and Judge Sotomayor said diversity is a value that this society cares about, and we are willing to allow it to be considered in giving out government benefits. But that's the heart of the dispute.
VELSHI: A bunch of these firefighters took a test to get promoted. The African-American candidates did not score high enough to be promoted. So they threw out the test.
TOOBIN: And traditionally, there was a lot of justification for what the city did, because there's a doctrine of law known as "disparate impact" which said, if you give a test, if you make an employment decision, and all the whites do well and all the blacks do poorly, something might be wrong with the test.
So what New Haven did and what Judge Sotomayor did was pretty reasonable under existing law. Now, the U.S. Supreme Court has now changed what the law is, and that's what we have to live with.
VELSHI: The firefighter we just heard from said the vindication will be when I get to put that badge on. That's not what the court case said. The court case doesn't award their guys their promotions, right? It just -- what does it do?
TOOBIN: Not directly. But it certainly does seem like they will get their promotions. This will have to go back to the district court, the trial court, which will have to enforce the decision. But I don't think there's much doubt that the top people on this test are going to get their badges.
VELSHI: Tell me this. Judge Sotomayor supported the initial decision. That's been overturned. Does that affect her ability to get appointed to the Supreme Court?
TOOBIN: Well, obviously, it's up to the senators whether they are influenced by it. They can decide to vote on any -- for any reason they want.
I think it's unlikely to make much of a big difference because, after all, she's there to replace Judge Souter. Judge Souter voted that she was right. Four justices voted that she was right. The more liberal justices voted she was right, and we would certainly expect that a Democratic president, Barack Obama, would support a liberal justice.
So her position had been endorsed by a number of lower court judges. It was overturned by the Supreme Court, but obviously a close case. I don't think it will have a big impact on her confirmation.
VELSHI: All right, Jeff, thank you.
And listen, quick question. Have you ever bought anything that Billy Mays pitched on TV?
TOOBIN: You know what, I don't. VELSHI: Really?
TOOBIN: And, you know, it's funny, I didn't recognize his face, but I certainly recognized his voice.
VELSHI: I bought a lot of stuff that he sold. I bought a lot of stuff that I don't need because of guys like him.
TOOBIN: I see.
(LAUGHTER)
VELSHI: Jeff, good to see you. Thanks for being here, CNN senior legal analyst Jeff Toobin.
U.S. troops are on the move out of Iraqi cities. Other units are being redeployed to Afghanistan. Which one is the forgotten war now?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: In a little more than an hour, day one arrives in Iraq. That means day one for the Iraqi military, the day they will be in charge of their major cities -- Mosul, Fallujah, Kirkuk, Najaf, and Baghdad.
U.S. military forces officially hand over security to Iraqi police and armed forces, a major milestone, the first of many now between the president -- when President Obama promises all U.S. forces will be out of Iraq.
Let's go to Baghdad and CNN's Michael Ware. But also this hour, discussion for Atia Abawi. Why? Because she is in Afghanistan, where numbers of U.S. forces are about to go up rather dramatically.
Let's talk about the two wars, one of which is being called forgotten.
Michael, first to you, tell us how the Iraqi people are viewing this pullout day.
MICHAEL WARE, INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, CNN: Oh, I can tell you that very easily, Ali. They are jubilant. There are celebrations around us as we speak. I can hear music.
State TV is cutting from one city to the next to the next showing the celebrations. I've just come, several hours ago now, from a celebration in a central park here in Baghdad. Hundreds of families picnicking as the sun went down, singing, dancing.
There was a concert about to begin. Government officials were showing up. State TV has flaunted its screen the last few days, counting down the days.
Right now, as I stand here, it's counting down the hours. We're about 70-odd minutes away from the official end of the U.S.-led war here in Iraq. Now, let's not make any mistakes here. This isn't going to necessarily be pretty. But the Iraqis of all people know that. For the last seven years, it's their blood that has spilled more than any others, and that's not taking away any respect from the 4,300-odd American soldiers.
They know that the bombings will continue, but they want to be Iraqi -- they want the occupation, as they see it, to end.
VELSHI: Let's go over to Atia in Afghanistan, talk about boosting U.S. troop numbers there. Atia, talk about this concept of the Afghanistan war having fallen off the American public's radar. Now it looks like it's back on, and people are worried about Iraq.
ATIA ABAWI, INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, CNN: Exactly, Ali. This is everything that Afghanistan has been waiting for. The people of Afghanistan wanted this attention to come back to their country.
Some agree with the troop increase, some don't. The soldiers here that we spoke to yesterday, we went out on patrol with soldiers who have been to both Iraq and Afghanistan, and those who are new to Afghanistan tell us that they say save it's about time they're focusing on Afghanistan.
They're happy to be here right now because they say it's been seven, almost eight years now, and more needs to be done in the war on terror in Afghanistan. They say that they're here to bring an end to this war as well -- Ali?
VELSHI: Michael, final word to you, about 30 seconds. Is there some fear, is there a faction of Iraqis who are fearful about this, that if the Americans move out, and it will degenerate again?
WARE: Well, yes. I mean, look, there will be ongoing violence, absolutely no question. The bombings are going to continue. Al Qaeda and its allies are trying to bomb Iraq back into the sectarian civil war.
And there are people who are worried not so much about that. Everyone's united in wanting to see that end. What they're worried about is it's being the presence of the American troops that's kept the warring factions within the government and beyond apart.
We're going to have to wait and see after next year's election around January to see what the losers do. And that's when American troops will really be thinning out -- Ali?
VELSHI: All right, we'll keep a close eye on this, as Michael says, just hours away. Atia, of course, we're going to be paying very close attention to the development in Afghanistan now and how that troop deployment works. Thank you, Mr. Chairman to both of you.
We're about to close up for the day in terms of this show and markets. As you say, they're up for the day.
Let's take it over to Suzanne Malveaux, who is standing in for Wolf Blitzer on "The Situation Room" in Washington. She'll continue with this very busy news day -- Suzanne?
