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First-Time Jobless Claims Tumble; Pelosi News Conference; Thousands Protest in Iran; Grave Reselling Scheme Uncovered; Paying for Health Care Reform

Aired July 09, 2009 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning, everyone. It is Thursday, July 9th, and here are the top stories in the CNN NEWSROOM.

The government's health care fix. Who pays? Democrats consider an income tax surcharge on fat paychecks.

A new dustup between Congress and the CIA. Several Democrats say the agency lied to lawmakers repeatedly since 2001. What does CIA Director Leon Panetta say?

Graves dug up, bodies dumped. Chicago police investigate a disturbing scheme to resell cemetery plots.

Boy.

Good morning, everyone. I'm Tony Harris.

And you are in the CNN NEWSROOM.

So, let's begin this morning with issue number one. It is the economy, a story that impacts every family in the country. New jobless numbers and what they may tell us about the trends we could see in the months to come.

As always, the CNN Money Team has you covered. Our chief business correspondent Ali Velshi with me here in Atlanta. And Susan Lisovicz at the New York Stock Exchange.

Susan, let's start with you.

If you would, walk us through this weekly jobless report.

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Tony.

Well, new claims for unemployment benefits fell by a big amount, more than 50,000, to 565,000. So, that was much better than the Street expected. It's the first time that number has dropped below 600,000 since the beginning of the year.

It is just one week, so you can't say this is a trend. It also tends to be a volatile time of year. You get auto shutdowns, other manufacturers shutting down. So, it's kind of a crap shoot as to the guess.

We do have another number to tell you about, and that is continuing claims, and that rose to another record, to 6.9 million. So, it certainly proves that finding work is tough.

HARRIS: All right.

I want to pose this question to both of you.

Ali, I'm going to start with you, because I know you ultimately want to turn the corner here and find out how we keep these jobs. But let me preface it this way -- give us the broader picture here.

And Susan, to you as well.

What has happened to the jobs in this country?

ALI VELSHI, CNN SENIOR BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Two very different things have happened to the jobs in this country. There have been a couple of industries that have been in decline for a long time, particularly the manufacturing industry. That is where most of the jobs in this country have been lost, and that has been going on for years, as we've been outsourcing manufacturing to cheaper places, particularly Asia. So that's been going on for years.

Then we saw a weakness in home building, and that caused job losses in the construction sector. And then what happened is, as it hit the rest of the economy, people simply weren't buying things, and that means everybody who was involved in selling, making, producing or providing a service started losing jobs. And that's what's happened.

There have only -- only -- been a couple of bright spots in the last year. Health care is the brightest spot by far across the board. And education is doing very well.

But it's a bunch of different things. So, even at the end of this recession, as Susan will tell you, some of those jobs will come back. But those manufacturing jobs largely are not coming back.

HARRIS: And you concur, Susan?

LISOVICZ: Oh, no question about it. I mean, as Ali said, Tony, there is job growth in health care, in education, and for many months we've seen it in government, as well. But it's simply not enough to offset the losses we've seen, as Ali said, in manufacturing, in construction, in retail, in leisure, travel, you know, all of these areas.

HARRIS: Hey, Susan, can I stop you for just a moment?

And let me stop you both for just a moment and have you stand by, because I believe we want to go to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi right now.

You may know this story. The House speaker is not the only one, not the only Democrat who is now saying that the CIA deceived lawmakers for years, especially from 9/11 until now, when it comes to interrogation techniques and a broad range of issues beyond interrogation techniques. She is holding her weekly meeting with reporters, and I just want to have you listen in. Brianna Keilar asked her a question on that subject, and -- but let's see where we are and then we'll circle back.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), HOUSE SPEAKER: ... that will increase competition. It is not something that is designed to outdo the private sector, but to have real competition.

The private sector has had the field to itself up until now. The system hasn't really worked for a large number of people in that country.

HARRIS: OK. So clearly, now, we're talking about health care. So let's listen in.

PELOSI: The public option is a way, as the president says, to keep the private sector honest. But it has to be a level playing field, not something that is wholly subsidized by the federal government in any way that is different than subsidies to individuals which can be used in the public or private sector.

QUESTION: House Speaker, back on the intelligence question, you say you never received that briefing.

PELOSI: No.

QUESTION: So, will you be pursuing that? And what's your take on what has evolved in the past 24 hours as this...

PELOSI: I know what you know. I've seen the letters from the members, and obviously they have concern.

The Intelligence Committee has the oversight responsibility for intelligence in the House, and an equivalent committee in the Senate. I'm sure they will be pursuing this in their regular committee process, and that's the way it will go.

QUESTION: Don't these letters silence the debate over the propriety of your making charges, if not the substance of your charges?

PELOSI: Well, I didn't know there was any question about propriety. I'm very proud of my work in human rights over the years, and people know where I am on the issues on which we were briefed.

In terms -- and I have -- well, I don't think -- no, this is an excuse, not a reason. As I told you, our success is driving the Republicans to distractions. Any excuse will do. But the fact is, is that there is a briefing that is of serious concern to members of the committee, and they have their course of action to deal with it. And that's that.

QUESTION: Minority Leader Boehner has taken a pledge that he will not vote for a health care bill that he hasn't read, hasn't had a chance to read it in its entirety, or until it's available to the public online for 72 hours.

Will you take that pledge and encourage other members...

PELOSI: Well, is this a pledge that is in keeping with his having read all of the bills that he ever voted for? I don't know what his pledge is, but we pledge to have a full process with ample time for the legislation to be well known to the public. Every person in America is an expert on his or her health care, and they're all very curious about what will be there.

Yes, sir?

QUESTION: Madam Speaker, the other day in Los Angeles, Congresswoman Jackson Lee held up a copy of House Resolution 600 praising the life and work of Michael Jackson.

I'm wondering, do you favor bringing that to the floor? And if not, why not? If so, why so?

PELOSI: We're into the popular culture now, and Michael Jackson was a great, great performer. And lots of sadness there for many reasons.

What I have said to my colleagues over the years, and certainly as leader and a speaker, is that there's an opportunity on the floor of the House to express their sympathy or their praise any time that they wish. I don't think it's necessary for us to have a resolution.

QUESTION: Why not?

PELOSI: Well, because I think in this case, if the idea is to praise the life and work, as I assume that resolution does, then why not do that? A resolution, I think, would open up contrary views that are not necessary at this time to be expressed in association with the resolution whose purpose is quite different.

QUESTION: Madam Speaker, how often do you speak to Leon Panetta? And do you receive your regular intelligence briefing?

PELOSI: I haven't...

HARRIS: OK, let's...

PELOSI: Oh, when he called to say that he would named, and I offered my enthusiastic support for his becoming the director, I think -- was that probably the last time I spoke to him? Or I had maybe one briefing from him earlier. It could be two. I don't know. But not recently.

But I do get my regular briefing, but not necessarily from him. The director of National Intelligence, Dennis Blair, has been briefing me.

QUESTION: Madam Speaker, are you yet in a position to name the Democratic members of the Financial Crisis Committee? And if you're not, when will you? PELOSI: Imminently. I will let you know as soon as we have them.

QUESTION: Madam Speaker, Majority Leader Hoyer mentioned the other day that there might be a need for a second stimulus. There's been a lot of back and forth on that.

What's your position on that?

PELOSI: I'm committed to the first stimulus. I don't think it's been given all the time to work.

This third quarter is a big quarter for the stimulus, and I think that people will begin to see more of the results. Even Dr. Zandy, who said that if it falls short, it will still be over 2.5 million jobs saved or created. We hope that it will be better than that. The question is always open as to what the administration may recommend to us, but right now I believe that we have much more to gain from seeing through the first stimulus.

I am a proponent for bringing up a full transportation bill, which is a great jobs bill. At some point we may have to do something on the extension of unemployment benefits.

But in terms of the investments that were made in the first package, I want to play that out, where we have to be very careful about the spending on this. And I respect the open opportunity that the distinguished majority leader put out there. But right now I think that we have big issues with health care and how we fund that. And if we do go some place, I'd like to see us do the transportation bill.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Last question.

QUESTION: Will you let the CBO score the final text (ph) of the health care bill before it's voted on in the House? And is there an upper limit to the new debt you are willing to incur from that bill? And, if so, what is that limit?

PELOSI: Yes, we have to have the CBO score. That's the world that we live in.

Having said that, I do want to say that the CBO does not score any savings from prevention and the rest. And as we put the bill forward, we want to know that our goal is to lower costs, improve quality, and make America healthier. So we have other validations that maybe the OMB, others, academic and other distinguished institutions which -- who can quantify exactly how much the hundreds of billions of dollars of savings are and some of the initiatives we take.

So, we will respect what the CBO score says. We will put it in the context of a larger context.

Some in the Congress want a direct scoring to include the benefits of prevention, for example, and early intervention, and we have to have that score before we go forward. And that's part of what we're waiting for, for the pay-fors, and then the CBO scoring after that as to what the bill will cost.

As I said, I want this -- I've told members as recently as this morning, squeeze out what you can out of the system -- savings, savings, savings. And then we have to establish priorities. And that's very challenging, but otherwise the bill is endless.

So we have to contain it. And it must be paid for.

QUESTION: Do you support the deal...

HARRIS: OK. This is the weekly gathering the House speaker, Nancy Pelosi, holds with members of the press, and a number of issues discussed there. We're going to talk for just a moment and then bring our Brianna Keilar in on the discussion.

The House speaker was asked about health care. I think you heard a portion of that.

Oh, she was also asked a question about whether -- you'll recall on Tuesday, during the memorial service for Michael Jackson, Representative Sheila Jackson Lee held up a resolution saying that she would introduce a resolution on the House floor praising the life of Michael Jackson. I think you heard very clearly there from the House speaker, that will not happen. And clearly, what that means is the House speaker doesn't want the debate in the various areas informs that debate could take, and that the speaker doesn't have the votes to pass such a resolution.

There is also -- there was also a couple of questions in that meeting with the press where the speaker was asked to respond to a letter that was signed by seven House Democrats accusing the CIA director, Leon Panetta, of contradicting himself and telling Congress that CIA officials misled Congress about significant actions for a number of years since 2001.

You'll recall that the House speaker, in a really contentious news conference -- it feels like two months ago -- made the claim that the CIA held back details about harsh interrogation techniques. There was a lot of back and forth that followed that news conference, and there were a couple of questions on that topic today, just moments ago.

I believe our Brianna Keilar -- is Brianna ready? Not yet? OK. All right.

So, the moment that we get Brianna to talk about how that was handled, those questions were handled by the House speaker, we'll get to Brianna.

But right now we want to get to our Reza Sayah.

Demonstrations this hour in the Iranian capital, Tehran. And already, we are getting reports of clashes between security forces and demonstrators. Reza is at the Iran Desk here in the NEWSROOM.

And Reza, what do you have for us?

REZA SAYAH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Tony, these are the first protests and clashes we've seen over the past couple of years (sic). We have the first piece of video coming in to the Iran desk, and it appears to be from the protest today. It's dated July 9th on YouTube. And let's go ahead and run that for you.

This is, we believe, somewhere near Enqelab, Revolution Square. And as you see, people chanting, and those chants are getting aggressive.

You used to hear "God is great." Now, when you listen to this video, you hear "Death to the dictator," also the chants of, "Hey, government that pulled off a coup, resign, resign." So, some pointed chants from demonstrators targeting the government.

Let's go ahead and pause this for a second and tell you where this is exactly happening.

This is Enqelab Square, right here. The commotion started here about a couple of hours ago. Hundreds of people, according to our observers, gathered here. They were met there by thousands of security forces who pushed them away. They started moving up to the streets north of Tehran Square.

Let's go ahead and show you that video again. And this was the result.

Coming into the Iran desk for the past couple of hours, observers telling us reports of gunfire on the streets. These could be shots fired in an effort to disperse the protesters or they could be tear gas canisters. Eyewitnesses did tell the Iran Desk that many protesters were rubbing their eyes. Also reports of trash cans being burned.

On a couple occasions, I spoke to observers on the ground, and I could clearly hear loud chants of "God is great," "Death to the dictator."

Again, Tony, we haven't seen this in about a couple of weeks. And this many observers agree it's because of the aggressive government crackdown to put a stop to these types of protests. And many pointed to this day and say this is a barometer of protesters.

Have they been discouraged? Are they going to stay away?

But today marking a 10-year anniversary of a student protest in 1999 where several students died. They're using this opportunity to come back and tell the government that despite warnings to stay away, that they're still here, still protesting the election results on June 12th.

HARRIS: Well, Reza, when we come back to you a little later in the hour, if we have time this hour, or certainly next hour, let's talk about the significance of those protests 10 years ago. Maybe you can take us back in time and how the events of that day are being remembered today in these protests that you're showing us the first images of.

Our Reza Sayah for us from our Iran desk.

Reza, appreciate it. Thank you.

SAYAH: Sure.

HARRIS: Fixing health care -- can it be done? Who is going to pay for it? And what does an overhaul mean for you?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(WEATHER REPORT)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: All right, as promised, let's get to our congressional correspondent, Brianna Keilar. Brianna was in the room as the House speaker, Nancy Pelosi, took questions from the media. It's what she does every week.

And Brianna, I take it -- I heard one question, but I suspect there were a couple of questions about this letter that Democrats have sent to the CIA director, Leon Panetta, essentially accusing Panetta of contradicting himself, telling Congress one thing. But this all goes back to the House speaker's rather contentious news conference, it feels like a couple of months ago, where she essentially made the same claims against the CIA, that the agency held back details about harsh interrogation techniques.

How does she handle the one, maybe two questions she took on this topic?

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. She was asked, Tony, if -- well, I asked her if she'd had this briefing from CIA Director Panetta that Democratic members of the House Intelligence Committee who sent that letter said they had. They say that Leon Panetta told them the CIA had been withholding information or misleading Congress about certain things of the CIA since 2001, for the last eight years.

She said she has not had that briefing. She told the media that she knows what we know, and she said that what this really is -- someone asked if maybe this will silence critics, silence Republican critics who have said that she needed to back up her claim that the CIA misled her, specifically in a 2002 briefing on harsh interrogation tactics like waterboarding, and she said that because of Democratic successes -- and these are her words -- that Republicans have been driven to distract from that, and that's what's going on there. But she said the bottom line from her perspective is that this raises serious concerns that the Intelligence Committee is going to have to deal with. She really kind of shied away from getting into it in any major way -- Tony.

HARRIS: That's what it sounds like. OK. I thought I heard the same thing.

Our Brianna Keilar for us on Capitol Hill.

We appreciate you asking the question, Brianna. Thanks.

Would you buy your garbage back? You've gotten rid of it, but would you buy it back? Recycling waste and providing jobs and money for local families, that's next in the NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: In the developing world, some people scratch out a living sorting through garbage. Now an artist has found a way to keep trash from piling up while helping those who rely on it for their livelihoods.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS (voice-over): Garbage, it is everywhere you look in Indonesia's capital. The streets are covered, the canals are clogged.

ANN WIZER, FOUNDER, XSPROJECT: They do not have municipal funds to afford clean streets. You know, they can handle as much as they could afford for flood control.

HARRIS: But what's an eyesore to some is a meal ticket for others. An estimated 350,000 to 450,000 trash pickers make a living collecting the waste from Jakarta's streets. Many of these workers try to support families on less than $35 a month.

Artist Ann Wizer wanted to help the city produce less waste without hurting the people who relied on it. So, in 2002, she created XSProject.

WIZER: What we're doing now is not rocket science at all. It's a simple segue between unsustainable design. What we're doing here is keeping trash out of the landfills.

HARRIS: Wizer reached out to local trash pickers in her community. She offered them above-market prices to begin collecting plastic consumer packaging. This non-recyclable material became the inspiration behind Wizer's environmentally conscious line of projects.

WIZER: I don't put the garbage inside the stuff (ph). What you see is what you get, and I want you to see it. I want you to buy your garbage back.

HARRIS: From trash collection, to cleaning and sewing, XSProject offars a chance for sustainable living.

WIZER: This is a floor pillow made from the leftover waste from XSProject. So, we made these as a way to use that up.

HARRIS: As the need for sustainability grows, Wizer realizes her work is just beginning. In addition to XSProject, she has started a scholarship program for the children in her trash picker communities, and another project in the Philippines, where Wizer lives and where the idea for the project was born.

But Wizer believes her greatest success has been spreading awareness. Groups like Seven Moms (ph) have started similar projects, local mothers aiming to educate their own neighborhoods.

WIZER: There are many, many groups now doing this, and that is very pertinent. It means that people are seeing solutions.

XSProject is about design solutions. Then people take the solutions and say, I can do that, and make their own job at it.

HARRIS: As awareness takes root, Wizer continues to dream up new ways to combat the trash problem, one wrapper at a time.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS: And for more about the XSProject or other groups working for a cleaner, safer world,, log on to our "Impact Your World" page. That's at CNN.com/impact.

Paying for health care reform -- whose pocketbook will get hit the hardest?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: And breaking news right now. An alleged grave-selling scheme near Chicago. Unbelievable. CNN has confirmed that four people have been charged and will appear in court next hour. We'll see if we can get those pictures for you.

The Cook County sheriff says employees at the historic Burr Oak African-American cemetery allegedly dug up more than 100 graves. The sheriff says it was a scheme to resell burial plots at the cemetery in Alsip, 20 miles south of Chicago. Today, they're trying to learn just how many graves have been disturbed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF TOM DART, COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS: We're bringing in some high-tech machines that are going to be able to use ultrawaves and the like to make sure that nothing has been tampered with. We have thermal imaging units that are going to be on site here soon, and we're going to double-check everybody's. Because, as we told people, this is an incredibly historic cemetery for the African-American community.

But as well as the notables, there are regular family members everywhere, children, grandparents. When you look at some of the gravestones, Joe, that we come across that have been dumped in -- throughout the cemetery and have been hidden, you see gravestones of babies, you see gravestones of grandparents, wives, husbands. This is heartbreaking stuff.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: Heartbreaking to be sure. Listen to this. CNN's just confirmed that as many as 300 graves, 300 graves may have been disturbed. Among those buried at Burr Oak, blues singer Diana Washington, Harlem Globetrotter Otis Spann and several Negro League baseball players.

Cheryl Jackson is at the cemetery right now, and she's on the phone with us. Cheryl, first of all, how did we learn of this story? How did this come to light?

CHERYL JACKSON, FREELANCE CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Several of the workers here at the graveyard actually told police about this, and we are talking about four people being charged. One office manager and three gravediggers charged with felony dismembering of a human body. And like you said, they have admitted to tampering with the bodies and throwing them in piles here, at least 300. Police tell us just now that they think it might be even more, so...

HARRIS: Cheryl, have they found those bodies?

JACKSON: They are still digging, even now. We are literally standing in an area where they are digging, where there are piles with bones and teeth and, you know, several of the vaults that are still -- some of them intact, some of them crushed. We are literally standing here...

HARRIS: Are you kidding me?

JACKSON: ... while they are digging and still trying to figure out what's going on here.

HARRIS: Are you kidding me?

JACKSON: No, I'm not kidding you. I'm not kidding you. And also, the other sight that you -- that's just terrifying to see are the people that are wandering around the cemetery looking for their family members. And some of them, we've talked to one lady, we'll have something up on her later, but she said, my brother's not here. So, there are people just wandering around looking for their family members.

HARRIS: You mentioned that, what is it, that four people have been arrested?

JACKSON: Yes.

HARRIS: An office worker and three gravediggers?

JACKSON: Yes. Yes.

HARRIS: OK. This -- the suggestion isn't that this was something that was hatched by just these four people. Does -- is there any suggestion that there is a bigger, broader scheme than something that was just undertaken by these four people?

JACKSON: Right now, police believe these four people are the ones that have hatched this scheme.

HARRIS: That they hatched this whole scheme.

JACKSON: Yes, they do not believe the cemetery ownership is involved. They say all indications say cemetery ownership is not involved in this.

HARRIS: My goodness. And Cheryl, is it our understanding, your understanding that these people will be in court next hour?

JACKSON: Yes, it is. It is. And, you know, I just have to say again, this is just a sight to see. I'm standing here, and I'm looking at people wandering around from grave to grave looking for their family members, and many of them not finding them.

HARRIS: Cheryl, do we know whether or not the people who have been arrested are cooperating? And when I say cooperating, have they directed the authorities to where to dig?

JACKSON: Yes, they have. They have told them that -- they have told them about this one space where they believe all the bodies are. But police now say they are worried that inside the graveyard, because this space is just a little bit outside the graveyard, police say they are now worried that inside the graveyard, bodies are buried on top of bodies and that's a bigger problem. They expect to have FBI's help from around the world to try to, you know, figure out this mess.

HARRIS: Cheryl Jackson is a freelance reporter helping us with this story. Cheryl, thank you so much. That is really disturbing. We'll get back to you a bit later.

All right, let's move to health care now. The critical issue over health care reform right now is how to pay for it. Lawmakers deeply divided on how to cover the 10-year, roughly $1 trillion price tag. Let's turn now to our senior medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen.

As always, she's with me here in Atlanta. Thanks, Elizabeth. And joining us from New York is CNNmoney.com's Jeanne Sahadi.

Well, Jeanne, it's been clear this health care reform has to be paid for through a combination of savings and revenue streams. Let's have all of us and the folks at home listen to Linda Douglass. She is the communication director for the White House Office of Health Reform.

She was talking to us yesterday about what the president has put on the table on the savings side. And just a reminder here to everyone. As we listen to this, remember the number that has to be covered is $1 trillion, just about $1 trillion over ten years. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) LINDA DOUGLASS, COMMUNICATION DIRECTOR, WHITE HOUSE OFFICE OF HEALTH REFORM: The president has already put $950 billion on the table. The $600 billion of which is savings that he's talking about reducing waste and fraud and all of the reasons that health care costs in the public sector are rising so much. In addition, he's proposing to return the rate of itemized deductions for the very wealthiest Americans back to where they were when Ronald Reagan was president. That's an idea he likes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: So, Jeanne, let's start with you. Congress needs to come up with more than $300 billion in tax revenue in the next decade. What are the options being discussed? And why don't we start with the one that seemed to carry the most promise but may be off the table now.

JEANNE SAHADI, CNNMONEY.COM: Well, it's still on the table, but it may be modified quite a bit. The biggest one on the table was taxing health benefits that you receive at work, the money that your employer pays to help you get health insurance. So, employers tend to pay between 60 percent to 80 percent of workers' premiums. So, that money's tax-free to you and under these proposals, some piece of that might be subject to taxation, to income tax if they set what's called a cap at the value of the benefit.

And you can do that 100 different ways, but depending on how they set the cap, some people would have to pay tax on that money. But there's been a lot of pushback by Democrats, a lot of pushback by unions, and the polls shows that Americans really don't like the idea because, guess what, no one likes to pay taxes.

HARRIS: No one likes to pay taxes.

SAHADI: So, they're kind of looking at other alternatives to come up with more revenue. And Senator Baucus, who heads the Senate Finance Committee, said it is still on the table, but the indication is that it might be much modified from what they were thinking of.

HARRIS: Well, OK, so, Elizabeth, if you tax employee health care benefits, what would that mean for you and me? For everyone watching.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right, because right now, people who get insurance through their employer, their employer's paying a lot of money...

HARRIS: Yes.

COHEN: ... sometimes, like, $10,000, $20,000 -- it's a lot of money, and we don't have to pay taxes on it. What a deal. Well, there is some thought maybe that should be ended.

So, there's a million different ways to do this. But if you look at one of the plans that has gained some traction in Congress, if you look at one of those plans, under that plan, in about 10 years, half of the people who get insurance through their employers, they'd pay nothing. They would pay no taxes. But the other half of people who get generous benefits from their employers, a middle-income person would have to pay about $1,000 a year 10 years from now. So, about $1,000 a year for a middle-income person in extra taxes if you start taxing benefits.

HARRIS: For those getting what's called the Cadillac plan?

COHEN: Yes, for those getting, yes, a pretty generous plan there. Right. And again, half the people wouldn't have to pay anything.

HARRIS: Yes.

COHEN: But the half who do, if you look down the middle, it would be about $1,000 a year in extra taxes.

HARRIS: What are your -- Jeanne, did you want to jump in?

SAHADI: I just want to say that they may pay less if they set the -- if they index that cap in different ways. So, if you index it to medical costs, chances are that person might have to pay less because medical costs grow so quickly. But if they only index it to something like inflation, that grows much more slowly. So, you're going to be subject to more tax. So, the more generous the index, the less you'll end up paying a tax.

COHEN: Right. There's a million ways to slice it, and this analysis was done by the Urban Institute. There's a million ways to do it. But that's sort of the one that seems to have the most traction.

HARRIS: Right. You know, there is some talk, and I believe it's more on the House side than the Senate side, of raising some revenue here by taxing -- sin taxes. We're talking about alcohol and cigarettes and soda pop and that sort of thing. Elizabeth, what's your take on that?

COHEN: You know what? That's been sort of tossed around in general, not just for health care reform but in general. Like, if you're going to make yourself sick by becoming fat or by, you know, getting lung cancer, then, well, you should have to pay for that.

People have sort of mixed feelings on this because it could disproportionately affect people of lower income, people of lower means because they tend to consume those products more. But then again -- so, those folks might pay higher taxes. But then again, you could also make the argument, well, they're going to benefit under health care reform more than anyone else.

But, Tony, I think what the bottom line here is is that this is expensive. A trillion dollars over 10 years. Someone has to pay for it. There are no health care reform fairies writing checks. It has to come from somewhere. And nobody really wants to say it quite this way, but you know what? Plain old Americans may be funding some of this, whether it's in the form of higher taxes out of your paycheck or at the grocery store. HARRIS: Which, Jeanne, is something that's being talked about, this idea of taxing individuals who make, what, more than $200,000 and couples who make more than $250,000.

SAHADI: Right. It's called a surtax, and I think the way it would work is, you know, you pay your income taxes in a normal way, and if you happen to have income above those caps, you would be subject to a 2 percent rate or a 3 percent rate. You know, we don't know what they're going to decide on, but it would be some small percentage that would apply to the top part of your income if you exceed the threshold. I do want to say that there is a lot of suggestion out there about how the wealthy can pay for all sorts of things.

HARRIS: Yes.

SAHADI: You know, President Obama is..

HARRIS: "Soaking the rich" is what we hear all the time. "You can't soak the rich." It's ridiculous. We need the rich to provide the stimulus for jobs and everything else.

SAHADI: Well, but, you know, even without that argument, there's just not enough money there to tap for all the things we want to tap the rich for. Right?

So, President Obama's idea was to limit the amount of itemized deductions that high-income taxpayers could take. Democrats and Republicans did not like this idea at all. But if they're in a pinch, and they have to make this deficit-neutral, maybe they're going to reconsider it. Maybe they could exclude the charitable contributions from this rule if they pass it because that's what everyone was complaining about -- "oh, it's going to hurt charitable contributions if we do this."

Well, you know, the real estate industry is not going to like it if they limit the mortgage interest deduction. I mean, the bottom line is, everybody has a reason not to like one of these options, and the general point about taxing the rich for everything is we're going to run out of money from the rich because we have so much more to pay for than health care.

HARRIS: Nice. Good point.

SAHADI: President Obama already wants to raise their income rates going forward. And even that is not going to be enough. The truth is, people are going to have to have taxes raised across the board. It's not enough just to focus on high-income people.

COHEN: Right. Yes. To Jeanne's point there -- she makes an excellent point -- like, how much can you soak the rich? Like at a certain point...

HARRIS: Right.

COHEN: ... at a certain point, can they pay for that $1 trillion? And Linda Douglass yesterday from the Obama administration took great pains to say, we're going to tax the rich, and sort of what she was trying to say, don't you worry, we're only going to tax the rich. Some people really aren't so convinced. Some people say, at the end of the day, if we want health care reform, everyone's going to have to pay something.

HARRIS: Our senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen. Elizabeth, thanks. And Jeanne Sahadi from CNNmoney.com. Ladies, thank you. You're terrific. Terrific insights.

We also want to hear from you. Want to give you an opportunity to weigh in. Our Josh Levs is here to explain how you can do just that -- Josh.

JOSH LEVS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and Tony, you know, background. Whenever you're talking about how you're going to pay for all this, we also have to keep in mind that we are a nation trillions of dollars in debt already, right?

HARRIS: Yes. There you go.

LEVS: So, if we were tackling that, we would actually be coming out ahead each year. So, obviously, massive expenses. And that's why it really is a great topic to be tossing at you. And let me show you how you can weigh in. We have our blog here. Easy to find now. It's an even shorter url, CNN.com/tony. I think we have a graphic that represents you. CNN.com/tony. And we also have a phone number set up. Can we show that? It's 877-742-5760. No? That's OK.

HARRIS: No, no, no, no. We need to get -- do we have it? Megan (ph), did we prepare it? OK.

LEVS: Yes. There you go. CNN.com/tony. It's shorter than it used to be, right? So, you just get right to the page. It will take you there. And I believe we have the phone number one, as well -- 877-742 - there you go -- 5760. We want you to encourage you to call us.

Look, so many people, Tony, have struggled in the medical system that there really are a lot of viewers with a lot of strong opinions and often insights. Really quickly, on the computer behind me that we were just showing, I'll just show you a couple, just so you see the kinds of things we're getting.

HARRIS: Oh, great.

LEVS: Some of you are going to see this and say, OK, I need to weigh in because I disagree. Here's one from Jessica (ph), who's saying, "Instead of the stimulus giving all this money to businesses, give it to the medical field."

And here's one from Aaron (ph), who says, "You know what? It's a small portion of the population that are volunteering for the military, but they do it because it's better for us as a society in general." He uses that as an argument to tax the rich. He says, "You know what? Think of this as similar." Now, obviously, you can poke holes in that, as well.

We'd love to hear from you, whatever it is that's your opinion, your view on how to fix health care, what the big obstacles are. CNN.com/tony.

HARRIS: I love talking about this. I mean, it is a huge debate for this country. What do we want to do about health care? Do we want the system that we have? Do we want to reform it? It's a wonderful debate. I'm just happy we're doing it.

LEVS: And it's one of these things that really gets people in their hearts because it's in your life, it's your family, it's your mother, your family that's struggling in the medical system right now. You want to see this fixed. We all do. What are we going to do?

HARRIS: We'll take a break. We're back with more CNN NEWSROOM in just a moment. Thanks, Josh.

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HARRIS: You know, Toronto has a trash problem. Thousands of workers are on strike. CNN iReporter Jimmy Deol tells us it is growing every day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIMMY DEOL, CNN IREPORTER: The overflowing garbage cans are springing up everywhere in the city of Toronto. Here's an example.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: Well, thousands of city workers have been on strike since June 22nd. The mayor says city negotiators last night were given greater flexibility in talking with union officials. The "Toronto Star" says the city is pushing for a pay freeze this year with a 1 percent pay hike next year. Our Ali Velshi with talk with Toronto's mayor, David Miller, in the 1:00 Eastern hour of CNN NEWSROOM.

Another iReport from southern California. Visitors to the famous Getty Museum were evacuated after this brush fire erupted yesterday above the museum's parking lot. About 350 firefighters jumped on the blaze. It is now, we understand, 90 percent contained.

A joyride that turned painful.

And wait until you see the driver!

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HARRIS: Very quickly, new video coming in to our Iran desk of today's demonstrations marking the 10th anniversary of student protests in the capital. Let's get to Reza Sayah, who has the latest for us -- Reza.

REZA SAYAH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Tony, new video coming in to the Iran desk within the past hour. Let's go ahead and take a look at it. Before that, let's give you some perspective. The protest happening (INAUDIBLE) Square (INAUDIBLE). That's where we're going to take you.

According to the video, this is Karghar (ph) Street, which is north of Enqelab Square, Revolution Square, scene of the protests that started about three hours ago, 5:00 p.m. local time in Iran. According to eyewitnesss, hundreds of people gathered in Revolution Square. They were met by security forces, who dispersed them. I believe we also have video coming in to the Iran desk about a couple of hours ago showing some clashes from earlier in the day. Again, we point out we cannot confirm the date and the location of this.

HARRIS: Sure, sure.

SAYAH: But according to the video posted, it is from July 9th, and there you see some demonstrators, some clashes, some trash cans being set on fire. Tony, some aggressive chants being pointed towards the government. We'd heard the chants of "God is great."

Now, when you listen to this video, you're also hearing "Death to the dictator," "Death to Khamenei." Also a new chant, "Hey, government that pulled off a coup, resign, resign." We hadn't seen these types of protests, these types of clashes for the past couple of weeks. Many using the opportunity, the 10-year anniversary of a student protest back in 1999, to come back out and speak out against the vote, and that's what you're seeing here today, Tony.

HARRIS: OK. Can we go back to the first video? Maybe we can -- guys, maybe we can roll that again, or Reza, because I don't know if it's a resolution issue or what it is, but it's -- I'm not able to see it clearly. Maybe you're able to see it better. Can you describe what you're seeing there?

SAYAH: People are not allowed to have cameras at areas like this, so they're using the cell phones. This looks like someone who used his cell phone sideways. This is Karghar Street, which is north of where the protests started earlier today.

HARRIS: Got you.

SAYAH: It started here. Security forced disbursed them. This is the video that you're looking at here, Karghar Street. And there we look at people. And videos like this coincide with what observers have been telling us throughout the mornings. Hundreds, and then it became thousands of people coming out to this location, being met by security forces.

Tear gas was used. We've also heard eyewitnesss telling us that they heard what appeared to be gunshots. It could have been tear gas canisters. Security forces have used gunshots to try to disperse the crowd. But it looks like at least some of them are still out there.

HARRIS: Got you. All right, Reza, we'll get back to you shortly. Thank you. Coming up in the next hour of CNN NEWSROOM, health care reform carries a hefty price tag, and lawmakers are deadlocked over how to pay for it. A lot of discussion on health care today. We will tap into that discussion with our Brianna Keilar.

Plus, exclusive new details about an intervention the Jackson family tried to have with Michael in the few years of his life.

And a tiny, down on its luck town in Georgia is seeing quite a turnaround, thanks to the auto industry. A tour of "Kia-ville," coming up in the NEWSROOM.

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