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President Obama Speaks Out on Harvard Arrest; Honduran Exiled Leader Tries to Enter His Country
Aired July 24, 2009 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Hello again, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez with what is the next generation of news. This is a conversation. It is not a speech. And it is your turn to get involved.
And, boy, have you gotten involved. After our show yesterday, which you responded to in huge numbers on television, on my blog, on Twitter, et cetera, the story has gotten even hotter and has now been threatening to drown out President Obama's health care message, no doubt.
And guess who just came forward and announced that, well, he may have misspoken, as we were talking about on the show yesterday, which, well, some of my colleagues denied.
The president of the United States, just a half-an-hour ago -- you know the story, first of all but let me catch you up. Following the arrest of Harvard professor Henry Gates for disorderly conduct by a white Cambridge police officer -- James Crowley was his name -- the president goes on national television and essentially takes sides with the professors -- or with the professor, I should say.
And he goes on to accuse the officer of acting -- quote -- "stupidly."
Well, did the president jump to a conclusion there -- a lot of people thought so -- some of my colleagues didn't -- before knowing the facts or does he simply come to this story -- and here is what is interesting. And this is what some of my friends like Roland last night on my show said. Maybe it is because the president comes to this story as an African-American from a place that many other Americans simply don't understand or don't relate to.
Just keeping everything in perspective. All right, let's begin, let's begin all the conversations, debates and arguments we are about to have on this show with what the president said about a half hour ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I wanted to address you guys directly, because over the last day and a half, obviously, there's been all sorts of controversy around the incident that happened in Cambridge with Professor Gates and the police department there. I actually just had a conversation with Sergeant Jim Crowley, the officer involved. And I have to tell you that, as I said yesterday, my impression of him was that he was a outstanding police officer and a good man, and that was confirmed in the phone conversation. And I told him that.
And I -- because this has been ratcheting up and I obviously helped to contribute ratcheting it up, I want to make clear that in my choice of words, I think, I unfortunately, I think, gave an impression that I was maligning the Cambridge police department or Sergeant Crowley specifically. And I could have calibrated those words differently. And I told this to Sergeant Crowley.
I continue to believe, based on what I have heard, that there was an overreaction in pulling Professor Gates out of his home to the station. I also continue to believe, based on what I heard, that Professor Gates probably overreacted as well.
My sense is you've got two good people in a circumstance in which neither of them were able to resolve the incident in the way that it should have been resolved and the way they would have liked it to be resolved.
The fact that it has garnered so much attention, I think, is a testimony to the fact that these are issues that are still very sensitive here in America. And, you know, so to the extent that my choice of words didn't illuminate, but rather contributed to more media frenzy, I think that was unfortunate.
What I would like to do then is make sure that everybody steps back for a moment, recognizes that these are two decent people, not extrapolate too much from the facts, but, as I said at the press conference, be mindful of the fact that because of our history, because of the difficulties of the past, you know, African-Americans are sensitive to these issues.
And even when you've got a police officer who has a fine track record on racial sensitivity, interactions between police officers and the African-American community can sometimes be fraught with misunderstanding.
My hope is, is that as a consequence of this event, this ends up being what's called a teachable moment, where all of us, instead of pumping up the volume, spend a little more time listening to each other and try to focus on how we can generally improve relations between police officers and minority communities, and that instead of flinging accusations, we can all be a little more reflective in terms of what we can do to contribute to more unity.
Lord knows we need it right now. Because over the last two days, as we've discussed this issue, I don't know if you've noticed, but nobody's been paying much attention to health care.
(LAUGHTER)
I will not use this time to spend more words on health care, although I can't guarantee that that will be true next week.
But I just wanted to emphasize that -- one last point I have guess I would make. There are some who say that as president I shouldn't have stepped into this at all, because it's a local issue.
I have to tell you that that thing -- that part of it, I disagree with.
The fact that this has become such a big issue, I think, is indicative of the fact that, you know, race is still a troubling aspect of our society. Whether I were black or white, I think that me commenting on this and hopefully contributing to constructive, as opposed to negative, understandings about the issue is part of my portfolio.
So at the end of the conversation, there was discussion about -- my conversation with Sergeant Crowley, there was a discussion about he and I and Professor Gates having a beer here in the White House. We don't know if that's scheduled yet, but...
(LAUGHTER)
... but we may put that together.
He also did say he wanted to find out if there was a way of getting the press off his lawn.
(LAUGHTER)
I -- I informed him that I can't get the press off my lawn.
(LAUGHTER)
He pointed out that my lawn is bigger than his lawn.
(LAUGHTER)
But if anybody has any connections to the Boston press as well as national press, Sergeant Crowley would be happy for you to stop trampling his grass.
All right?
Thank you guys.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: So, there you have it.
To his credit, the breaking news is that the president actually picked up the phone and called officer -- should I say, Sergeant Crowley.
But there has been a major shift in this story. Since we did our newscast yesterday, which, as aforementioned, got so much attention from you, the president was asked to make a comment on this story. He did so last night on "Nightline," completely different response from what you heard from the president right here. And that still needs to be taken into account.
So, let's listen to this. This is about a minute, I think. It's the president talking last night on "Nightline" with Terry Moran.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: It doesn't make sense with all the problems that we have out there to arrest a guy in his own home if he is not causing a serious disturbance.
Now, I don't know all the extenuating circumstances. And, as I said, I respect what police officers do. What I can tell -- from what I can tell, the sergeant who was involved is an outstanding police officer. But my suspicion is, is probably that it would have been better if cooler heads had prevailed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: So, there was the president essentially last night. He was sticking to his guns, right, essentially picking sides, picking the cops over the -- his friend, Professor Gates, from Harvard.
Then, something changed. And just as we were getting ready to prepare this newscast, we heard that the president was going to just jump out in front of cameras and start talking to reporters and do what some might characterize as a mea culpa.
Meanwhile, the professor, Gates, as far as we know, he still wants an apology. Sergeant Crowley, who, by the way, teaches a course on racial profiling at the police academy, teaches a course on racial profiling, he is saying, you are not going to get an apology from me, because I didn't do anything wrong.
That's what the police sergeant officer -- that's what the sergeant is saying. In fact, now, Crowley's fellow officers -- you have to watch this -- Crowley's fellow officers all came together today standing shoulder to shoulder and they said a lot of stuff.
But one of the things they said is, the president of the United States owes Sergeant Crowley an apology.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SGT. DENNIS O'CONNOR, CAMBRIDGE POLICE OFFICERS ASSOCIATION: They both qualified their statements by saying that they did not have all the facts.
Usually, when one hears those words, one would expect the next words would be, "So I cannot comment." Instead, both officials, both admitted friends of professor Gates, proceeded to insult the handling of this case by the Cambridge Police Department.
President Obama said that the actions of the CPD were stupid and linked the event to a history of racial profiling in America. The facts of this case suggest that the president used the right adjective, but directed it to the wrong party.
His remarks were obviously misdirected.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All right, we want to continue to give all sides in this debate a fair chance to air their side of the story.
So, now, what we want to do is give you Sergeant Crowley's perspective. He did not speak today. The police report that he wrote seems to suggest that he believed -- and this is important -- he believed that, when he arrived at the scene, professor Gates could have been a potential victim, which is why he says he asked him to step away from the residence, where he believed -- again, Sergeant Crowley says he believed there could have been two suspects that were, at the time, in his home burglarizing.
That's his version of events. That's how Gates did not see it, though. Here is his latest on-air response. This is Crowley's latest on-air response, where he sits down and he talks to Boston's CNN affiliate, CNN affiliate station WHDH.
Go ahead. Hit that, Rog.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SERGEANT JAMES CROWLEY, CAMBRIDGE POLICE DEPARTMENT: I was continuously telling him to calm down during this whole exchange, because I really didn't want this either.
And I didn't -- although I didn't know at the time who professor Gates was, knowing he was an affiliate of Harvard, I really didn't want to have to take such a drastic action, because I knew that it was going to bring a certain amount of attention, unwanted attention on me.
Nonetheless, that's how far professor Gates pushed it and provoked and just wouldn't stop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All right. You are going to hear more of everyone's side of this story, and you are also going to be hearing from some of my colleagues. T.J. Holmes is following the story, as is Don Lemon. Both of them have been talking to the players involved on both sides of this issue.
They are going to be joining us in just a little bit. Boyce Watkins is going to be joining us as well. He's going to be joining us with Melissa Harris-Lacewell, who is going to be taking up this question about whether the president of the United States -- and this is an important question for all Americans -- whether the president of the United States jumped to a conclusion, or whether it's his perspective as an African-American man that led him to simply react to something that many other Americans don't relate to. I mean, this is important stuff. It is part of our national conversation. Your reaction, as well, right here on Twitter, Facebook, and MySpace. Stay with us. We're going to be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez. We are coming to you today not from the world headquarters of CNN in Atlanta, but rather from our Time Warner studios here in beautiful New York City, off of Columbus Circle.
Man, have you guys gotten involved in this debate since yesterday. As a matter of fact, Jeff, come around, if you possibly can. Let's look at a couple of tweets, if we can. All right, here we go.
Let's go right to the top. This is interesting. It says: "I am now thinking" -- right there -- "I am now thinking that Obama set us up with his 'acted stupid' comment to deflect the news on the health care debate."
That's the one right there at the top that says United 9198.
Now, let's skip down, if we possibly can, to this one here that says Amad Ghatti (ph). Ghatti (ph), it says. Do you see that one, Jeff?
It says: "I am a black man in America. And I think Henry Louis Gates Jr. should apologize for overreacting and pulling the race card."
Now, that's an interesting comment, because it's one that we have been hearing a little more of since the outset of this incident. Some critics of Sergeant Crowley, though, still say that he shouldn't have arrested the professor, even if he was making a ruckus, even if the professor was out of control, because, after all, he was in his own home, the professor was, whether or not he was making a ruckus or being obnoxious as some seem to suggest. That's what some argue.
The legal counsel for the police union spoke today as well, trying to make us better understand what -- what is disorderly conduct to begin with, when can a police officer use it, what does the threshold, for example, have to be.
Let's learn a little bit more about this now before we get into the debate. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM DREXLER, POLICE UNION ATTORNEY: You could find hundreds of lawyers who would debate the ups and downs and the merits and demerits of any disorderly person arrest.
The police officer on the ground, if you will, on the spot of making those decisions does not have that luxury or ability. If you review Sergeant Crowley's report, I think you would find many lawyers who would agree that the evidence presented therein would be sufficient to make an arrest.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All right, let's talk with Don Lemon. He was there today for the presser. And he has also been talking to some of the players involved in this case.
You know what this is coming down to, Don? This is really an interesting question. And that's why all of us as Americans, Hispanic, black, white, no matter where we come from, need to ask ourselves these questions. Is this a case about a white police officer prejudging a black man, or is this possibly also a case about a black man prejudging a white police officer?
DON LEMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, Rick...
SANCHEZ: Maybe that's what it all comes down to.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
LEMON: Yes, I was going to say, that's what got us in this predicament now. That's what got the president and everyone in this predicament now, just sort of judging things before they play out.
Where is this story going to go to next? I don't -- I wasn't at the house. I don't know what happened. I have spoken -- I have e- mailed Mr. Gates. I have spoken to the officer, to the sergeant involved, personally. I have spoken to Mr. Gates' attorney.
And everyone has their own thing about what happened. But I have to tell you that, like I said, where is this story going to go? At least it feels like it is moving now, Rick, towards some resolution, and not only just resolution where everyone is accusing each other, but where people may actually sit down and talk to each other and come to some consensus on a solution.
And that's what "Black in America 2" is about, about solutions. But let me tell you this. Right after that press conference, with all of those people from the Cambridge Police Department, black, white, Hispanic, Asian, men, women, everyone, I was the only reporter who got a chance to go in and talk to these guys and talk to Sergeant Crowley.
Sergeant Crowley has been, you know, told not to speak. He spoke to me off camera. But he stood there while all of his buddies, surrounded by all of his buddies on the police force, and they talked about him and what happened.
And the guy that you are going to hear from, Leon Lashley, he is a sergeant with the police department here. He's a supervisor here. He was on the scene.
Do we have that picture up, the arrest photo that we have been seeing of professor Henry Louis Gates Jr.? He is the African-American guy, the bald guy, sort of center-right there. He was on the scene. Here is what he said to me, Rick. He said, that -- honestly, he said, you know, the professor was acting erratically. He was saying strange things, that they were trying to calm him down.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: This is the black police officer?
LEMON: This is a black officer.
The black officer says that -- he said, this is what happens to a black man in America when a white woman calls the police. That would be his neighbors. A black man in America ends up in jail for trying to get into his own house.
So, he said that. And then he went on to explain why he is supporting the sergeant and what happened at the scene. Take a listen.
SANCHEZ: All right.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SGT. LEON LASHLEY, CAMBRIDGE POLICE DEPARTMENT: Every time we get into a situation, we are subject to being second-guessed as to why we did something, should we have done something differently.
And, coming after the scene, that can be done. We can always say, OK, we could have done something better. We could have done it this way. But, right there, on the spot, that's what happened. And, from what I seen -- and I was there -- he did nothing wrong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Now...
SANCHEZ: Wow.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: There is another side to the story. There is professor Gates' side to the story. There's his attorney's side to the story. They believe that professor Gates acted accordingly.
The interesting thing is going to be...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Go ahead. You finish.
LEMON: Yes, if they release these tapes, the 911 tapes, Rick, and the tapes from the radio broadcasts between the police officers, because it is said that, in the background, you can hear professor Gates, and that he was being unruly, and insulting the police officers.
The city solicitor right now listening to those tapes, deciding whether or not they're going to release those tapes.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
LEMON: Also, right after that, right after the president started speaking, I picked up the phone. I called the guys from the police department. They said they were with Sergeant Crowley. They were listening. They were happy with the remarks that the president was making.
And, by the way, I have this on good authority from sources. They want the world to know and the president that Sergeant Crowley drinks Blue Moon beer.
SANCHEZ: Heard that.
(LAUGHTER)
SANCHEZ: Thanks so much. We appreciate it, Don Lemon.
But I want to do now is go over to T.J. Holmes, who is also standing by.
You know what's interesting about this case, T.J., is that, if you really look at it fairly, the story is kind of moving away from professor Gates. This story three days ago was all about this poor professor who had been mistreated.
With the president's mea culpa, and with that comment we just heard from an African-American police officer that Don just brought us, this is not helping whatever case the professor may have presented earlier on.
But you have just spoken to his attorney, I understand. Tell us what perhaps you have learned that we don't know.
T.J. HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
Well, what I'm learning here -- and I am going to pick up on something you asked. And that was the precise question, Rick, that I asked. Is this a case that maybe Professor Gates was profiling a white officer? Is it a fact that he sees a white officer and jumps to a conclusion that this of course guy is going to be out to get me and not just doing his job?
The response to that, Rick, was that this is not about race. And I know that sounds crazy coming from Professor Gates' side and his attorney, Charles Ogletree, that I talked to today, because that's all we have been talking about the past couple days, is racial profiling.
He says, this is a matter of a police officer exhibiting bad judgment. And that is where he wanted to go and the direction they wanted this to go in, not about race.
However, he says the reason everybody is talking about race, it became about race when that neighbor picked up the phone and said, I see two black guys. And that is what triggered this whole thing. And that's why it put this whole mind-set into these officers' head that this is what we are up against when we head to the house.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. I have got to stop you there.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Because I understand on the record -- and I was reading this last night -- that Professor Gates has actually gone and shaken hands with his neighbor and thanked her for calling the police and protecting his property.
HOLMES: And, again, they are not saying the neighbor did anything wrong.
But, when you call -- according to Charles Ogletree, the attorney, when you call and tell the police it is two black guys, then he believes that sets certain things into motion, and that's why this got all out of hand.
(CROSSTALK)
HOLMES: Go ahead.
SANCHEZ: I just -- I have got to ask you this question.
HOLMES: Yes.
SANCHEZ: Did you -- what did the officer do to make the professor believe that he was a racist or that he was racially profiling, specifically? Not that he is a liar, not that I don't believe him, not that he filed a fake report? What did he do or say specifically? Have we learned that yet? Because I haven't heard that.
HOLMES: Well, quite frankly, here, Rick, he showed up as a white cop. Again, Charles Ogletree, he certainly said -- he said he was tired. He had a cold. He comes into his own home and he is being questioned. They didn't appreciate the fact that the officer immediately says, "Come outside. He didn't say, did you live here? "Can I see some I.D.? Come outside."
Well, according to Charles Ogletree, Professor Gates just took that the wrong way.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
HOLMES: He admits that Professor Gates was upset, he was loud, he was argumentative. He said, but wouldn't you be as well? Wouldn't you be upset as well?
He says Gates had no responsibility to diffuse that situation, and flat-out said, no, he did not do anything wrong. But, of course, you heard, as you know, Rick, from -- from the officer. He is saying, I don't know what's going on at this house. Of course I want him to come outside, because...
(CROSSTALK)
HOLMES: ... in danger.
SANCHEZ: The officer says -- for the record, the officer says in his police report, which I have here in this stack of papers somewhere, but I can basically tell you what it said.
He says, when he got the report and they said two people, so, he assumed there could be two people inside the house or another person besides the professor.
HOLMES: Yes.
SANCHEZ: He wanted to straighten it out. So, he wanted the professor to get away from the house, he says, for his own protection. He may have been a victim in this case. That's what the cop says.
HOLMES: That's not a good enough answer for Gates and Ogletree, for his side. It's not a good enough answer. He said, he could have done other things to diffuse the situation.
And we heard from the president a short time ago there, Rick, certainly trying to calm things down. I kind of got that sense from talking to Gates' attorney today.
If we still have time, if you want to, go ahead and roll that sound byte.
SANCHEZ: Yes, let's do it.
HOLMES: Let's go ahead and roll it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLES OGLETREE, ATTORNEY FOR PROFESSOR GATES: He says, why are you doing this? Is it because I am a black man and you are a white police officer?
HOLMES: Now, was he saying it as calmly as you are saying it to me?
(CROSSTALK)
OGLETREE: Well, the recordings will show...
HOLMES: Yes.
OGLETREE: You can imagine that he is feeling this sense of indignity that people feel every day. And it has nothing to do with race. There are people who feel powerless when they have done everything they can legally do to protect themselves and find that -- what professor Gates found was that, in a moment, you have been arrested.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOLMES: You heard that there, Rick. I know it sounds crazy at this point. We have been talking about racial profiling the past couple of days.
SANCHEZ: Right.
HOLMES: It is not about race. They wanted to back it down a little bit.
Also heard in there about the recordings, talking about the radio traffic. Those might be released. Some are saying you might be able to hear professor Gates yelling in the background. We don't know there. But, certainly, everybody thinks, Rick, no doubt, the president did such a service to come out today, try to diffuse this a little bit, and maybe we can move forward.
And right now, no lawsuit planned. They said this as well. Charles Ogletree, again, Gates' attorney, we do not have any -- it is not on the table is what he said, not 100 percent ruled it out, but saying, at this point, it's not a consideration to do a lawsuit. We just want this conversation to continue. We want more sensitivity training and have this, again, as a teachable moment, as everybody is saying.
SANCHEZ: I have got to tell you, I have learned as much in the last 10 minutes on this story from you, with your excellent reporting on this, stuff that we hadn't heard. We hadn't heard the other side yet.
And it sounds like there is a little bit of backing down on all sides on this thing, making for an even healthier debate in the end. And I think it is good for the national conversation, as well as from Don Lemon's report on what was coming in from the other side as well.
This is good TV. I am so glad, T.J., that you were able to bring us that.
HOLMES: Yes, we were going the wrong direction for a second with this conversation in a lot of ways. But it may be now we can have an intelligent conversation, cooler heads, calm down. Maybe we will see that picture of those three guys at the White House having a beer.
(LAUGHTER)
HOLMES: That's going to be huge.
SANCHEZ: And this could end up being good for a lot of Americans. And this is the kind of conversation about race relations that we need to have, because it's open and it's honest.
When we come back, talk about open and honest conversation about race relations in this country, what is racial profiling? Was that the case here? Are we all perhaps jumping to conclusions from time to time when we see people whose skin is different than ours, whether ours is dark and theirs is light or vice versa? These are important questions we all need to ask, because we all could be good and at fault at the same time.
Stay with us. This is going to get good.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Oh, my goodness. We have just learned that President Zelaya may be returning, after all, to Honduras. This is new information. There he is. After being embroiled in what was a coup, according to some, a legal removal according to others, after he had -- according to some people in his own country -- tried to actually dismiss the constitution so he can stay in power, a la Chavez, longer.
Hold on. I think I can listen to him talk and I can translate for you. Hold on.
He says, "I've never had a -- I've never had a trial. If this isn't justice, what they did to me, this would be null and void anywhere else." He says, "The people in the government would be committing a huge error if they tried to fight me, because they don't control the country."
Now, what we are trying to understand is, is he in the country legally or not legally? I'll keep listening to see if I can figure this out. But remember, this president was booted out of the country by his own people.
He says he just talked to the President Lula. It's Lula da Silva, the president of Brazil, by the way. And he says he's got the support of many other presidents. But sounds like he's arguing that he needs to be let back in his country and given back his presidency.
I was told, Chris, what you told me in my ear was that, in fact, he is -- this is from Honduras, right? He's back in -- but we don't know if he is back in Honduras legally as president or just back in Honduras because he snuck in the back door and is now asking to be put back in office. This thing could get really ugly.
All the people you see around him there, all the people -- he is a very popular president with villagers and the indigent population. Not so popular in the city, Tegucigalpa.
All right. Let me just see what else he says.
He says, "We sat down with Oscar Arias," that's the president, as you know, of Costa Rica, "and he accepted the terms of my return," but it doesn't -- you know what we'll do? Let's go ahead and get back to the story we are covering here, our own little crisis in the United States. And we'll get back to this. You know what it is, right?
It looks like President Zelaya is back in Honduras. However, it doesn't sound like he's back in Honduras legally. So, how are they going to make this legal? And is this going to cause another kind of skirmish, perhaps the same kind of violence in the streets that we saw before?
We'll see if we can our -- Karl Penhaul is down there. If we can get him on the phone before the show ends, I'll get him on and see if he can clear this whole thing up. That's breaking news once again -- the president, the embattled President Zelaya of Honduras back in his country.
All right. Let's get back now to the president of the United States and his battle. The latest one being after a comment that he made in the very last question of a news conference on health care, essentially deciding to take sides against the police department in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and with his friend, who was a professor at Harvard, at one point saying that the police officers acted stupidly.
Boyce Watkins is joining us now. Boyce was with me yesterday and was somewhat brazen and courageous enough to say, "My dad used to be a cop. Even though I'm an African-American man, I think the president of the United States, who I respect, was wrong for saying what he did." That's what Boyce Watkins said on the air yesterday. He joins us now once again.
What's your take after hearing the president kind of do a mea culpa today, Boyce?
BOYCE WATKINS, PROFESSOR, SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY: I think that this shows that President Obama is exactly what I thought he was when I endorsed him a long time, and that's an intelligent and thoughtful human being. I think that it was a slip of the tongue.
And I think that President Obama, I'm hopeful, will do a little bit of self-reflection and really ask himself, you know, "Was it my association with my Harvard buddy that led me to assume that if he got arrested, the officer must have done something wrong," because my belief is that this isn't as much about race as it might be about class.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Or is it something else? Is it something, Boyce? Is there something in African-Americans -- and to a certain extent, Latinos and Hispanics -- that makes us often, not in a mean or conspiratorial or bad or, you know, extremely negative way but does make us have a tendency to prejudge things because of our experience, and that this is so profound that it would affect someone as smart and intelligent as the president of the United States, who's also an accomplished law professor? I mean, that's kind of what we're getting to here, isn't it?
WATKINS: Yes. You know, let's be real. Racism is a disease that lies within the very fabric of the social infrastructure of the society in which we live. All of us are affected by racism. All of us, to some extent, are victims of the racial in equality that's being created over the past 400 years.
SANCHEZ: OK.
WATKINS: So, I don't blame Professor Gates for his reaction. In fact, I remember coming back, ironically, from a trip to China myself and going through some experiences that really upset me. I go through experiences at Syracuse University that upset me as a black man. So, I understand where he was coming from...
SANCHEZ: Yes, and that's what's interesting.
WATKINS: And I think that you have to be thoughtful and not jump to judgment.
SANCHEZ: I think the question is, even he can succumb to this -- even the president of the United States can succumb to a prejudgment even with all he is with the smart as -- and what does that tell us about what any one of us can do, whether we are white or black, by the way, in prejudging. I'm not talking about how he prejudged the cop. I'm talking about how in often -- in more often than not, white cops do prejudge Latinos and African-Americans.
Boyce, can you hold on for just a minute?
We got information on this...
WATKINS: Yes.
SANCHEZ: ... breaking story. We are trying to figure this out, all right? Apparently, President Zelaya of Honduras is now back in his country. But we don't understand what the terms or conditions are. So, let's do this. Karl Penhaul, I understand is now on the beeper. He's going to be -- that's what we call joining me on the phone and he might be able to shed some light.
Are you there, Karl, where the president is?
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): I'm standing -- I'm standing with one leg in Honduras and one leg in Nicaragua, right now, Rick. I'm 20 yards or 50 yards, say, from Mr. Zelaya. He is still on the Nicaraguan side of the border. Now, I guess, just about 10 yards into Honduras. Their military officers are waiting in case Mr. Zelaya comes across. Police officers are also waiting.
And the police officer that I just talked to said that if Mr. Zelaya steps one foot across this chain inside Honduras, his order is to arrest him. The military official that I spoke to said his order is to back up the police and to carry out that arrest warrant, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Oh, my goodness. What we are watching here then is a real confrontation. You are telling me, because you sounded a little muffled. I want to make sure our audience understands it. This president is not actually in Honduras yet. He's actually just steps away from the border where he'll cross into Honduras and, at that point, there may be a confrontation.
PENHAUL: He has (INAUDIBLE) stepped away 60 yards in my estimation from a rusty chain that marks the borderline between Nicaragua and Honduras. He is 50 yards inside of Nicaragua and 10 yards across the other side, 10 yards inside of Honduras. There, a committee of police officers and soldiers are waiting to arrest him, Rick.
SANCHEZ: So, what is -- is President Micheletti, the interim president, who's taking over for him in Honduras, made any kind of threat or told his police officers to go ahead and arrest the former president?
PENHAUL: (INAUDIBLE) a standing order for Mr. Micheletti that his military forces should arrest Mr. Zelaya should he set force into Honduras. And according to the police officer that I just spoke to, that order is very much still in effect. The aim is to arrest Mr. Zelaya if he sets foot in Honduras.
Now, in order to keep his supporters off the street, the interim government in Honduras has declared it safe on curfew. But we do know that a short distance across on the Honduran side of the border, there have already been violent clashes between the security forces and Mr. Zelaya's supporters, Rick.
SANCHEZ: And I imagine this region that we are in right now is not part of any big metropolis or bi city, right? This is more of a rural area where, by the way, is where guys like Zelaya and Chavez and others are very popular. So, these are the people who like him. If they try to arrest Zelaya, would I be wrong to assume that there might be a lot of people there who might come to his aid?
PENHAUL: There will be a lot of people he will certainly try and come to his aid, but it will be an uneven fight, Rick. Our reporters on the other side of the border tell us that at least 1,500 heavily armed police and soldiers. (INAUDIBLE) with tear gas and fired some shots, we are told.
And so, it is an even fight with Mr. Zelaya's supporters. Many of them have even tried to come from the capital Tegucigalpa. That the Honduran military our reporters on that side of the border told us they've been throwing up road blocks, driving Mr. Zelaya's supporters off (INAUDIBLE) and they're generally trying to impede their ability to get to the border and for which Mr. Zelaya is now just steps away from, Rick.
SANCHEZ: All right. Do a little play by play for us, Karl, if you could.
For those of us joining us, by the way, we are watching some real international drama here. The former president of Honduras, who was ousted, is about to cross back into his country, even though he's been told he would be defying the law. He thinks he's still the rightful president.
And it seems like he's really willing to force his way in, even though President Micheletti, the interim president, is saying he wants him arrested. Karl Penhaul, our CNN correspondent on the CNN is saying this may come down to a real confrontation. We're going to stay with this as it plays out.
Karl, tell us now where he is in relation to where the border is? Is he heading in that direction? Does it look -- it almost looks like he's walking in circles right now.
PENHAUL: Well, there is an element of a political fear here and also media fear, because it has to be said, Rick, right now, what Mr. Zelaya has done is theatrically walking to the immigration office. Now, this is the Nicaraguan immigration office. He's making a show that he is checking out of Nicaragua. He is getting his exit stamp, put in his (INAUDIBLE) and making a show that he is now really intending to leave Nicaragua.
Once he leaves that immigration office, he will then be about 50 yards away from a rusty old chain that marks the borderline between Nicaragua and Honduras. If he steps one foot over that rusty chain, then it will become the flash point. At that point, the Honduran military will decide exactly what they have to do. And on the other side, some 300 yards back from the Honduran border, is where we understand his supporters are gathered. They, at that time, will also have to decide what they are going to try and do to try and protect their president, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Good Lord. Karl Penhaul bringing us a live account of an international drama that is developing right now right on the border between Nicaragua and Honduras.
This is a story that we, at 3:00, have been following for you now for the better part of three or four weeks ever since that man you see right there, that's President Zelaya, with that white cowboy hat, was ousted from the presidency.
The Supreme Court decided that he had tried to perhaps violate the constitution by getting ballots into his country to continue as president even though his term would eventually end. That forced them to send the military general in to arrest him. Instead, he told the military general that he was fired. So then the Supreme Court eventually had him removed as they said -- taken out in his underwear one night.
It has created a huge situation for both the United States as well, who's had to come down on one side or another. Secretary of State Clinton has weighed in on it, as has the president of the United States, Barack Obama.
And now, here we have President Zelaya, live. We are staying with this, obviously, because it's drama that's unfolding before our eyes and because I happen to be able to speak a little Spanish. Let do this. Let me see if I can listen in to see what he's saying now.
All right. Let's see if we can turn up the sound there, Otis (ph).
(PEOPLE SPEAKING SPANISH)
SANCHEZ: The reporter says that the president is now talking to his family. I can't hear the president, because I hear the reporter talking about what's going on. Apparently, he is talking to his family before taking those final steps.
OK. Hold on.
(PEOPLE SPEAKING SPANISH)
SANCHEZ: This is part of...
(MR. ZELAYA SPEAKING SPANISH)
SANCHEZ: He says, "Right now, I'm right in the middle between Honduras and Nicaragua. I am waiting for you guys, waiting for you guys. I got it."
(PEOPLE SPEAKING SPANISH)
SANCHEZ: Let me hear what the reporter is saying. Hold on.
He says, "Justice must be parallel, must be fair. They are hurting the people of Honduras and on and on." We've heard that before.
It's still unclear whether he's going to be making a show of force there at the border or actually going in.
Karl, have you been able to get a better handle as to whether or not the president is going to be going in and if so, any time soon? Or if he's waiting for -- he did say, "I'm waiting for you guys." Was he perhaps waiting for somebody in the government, you think?
PENHAUL: No. What he has said is that he would hope to be reunited with his family on the border, because throughout this crisis, his wife and his children had stayed inside Honduras, part of the time, we understand, in hiding. As to whether Mr. Zelaya will get across any time soon, from where he is standing right now, it would seem he's certain to walk across into Honduras.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Karl, hold on just a second. Let's see what he said there.
He just made a pretty declarative statement. Let's see if we can figure it out.
(PEOPLE SPEAKING SPANISH)
SANCHEZ: I thought I just heard him say again...
(PEOPLE SPEAKING SPANISH)
SANCHEZ: Boy, I tell you what. This fellow likes the attention.
(PEOPLE SPEAKING SPANISH)
SANCHEZ: All right. It's hard to figure out exactly what he is doing?
Karl, as we watch this. Let me just help you put this in perspective, because I have had some very various conversations with some international experts, including members of the Reagan and Bush administration, who were part of the Latin-American strategy for this country. I still am not sure whether this guy really is a good guy or a bad guy in all of this.
I mean, on the one hand, as you know, he was planning some stuff that could have been considered very nefarious. On the other hand, it looks at least from our vantage point, like he was ousted in coup-like fashion, almost illegally. Which is the truth? Who's right and who's wrong here?
PENHAUL: Everybody in this crisis would say that they were right from their side, Rick. The international community has come down very heavily on Mr. Zelaya's side.
And you have to remember that this is the president who was democratically elected by the Honduran people. Remember, as well, that this man came to power with a sense (INAUDIBLE) right agenda and then progressively shifted to the left. But in no sense is this man a communist and no sense that this man a socialist. He is simply proposing social reform.
He did propose some measures that constitutionalists inside of Honduras believed would break the constitution. But the black and white fact (ph) remains is that armed soldiers firing shots broke into the presidential palace, had taken this president and removed him in pajamas and bundled him off into exile in his pajamas to Costa Rica and that -- in anybody's language -- is a military coup, Rick.
SANCHEZ: For those of you who are just now joining us, this is a developing news story that we are following for you -- breaking news that we suddenly got a live picture of. The gentlemen in the white hat is the former president of Honduras. It seems or appears as being reported by our own Karl Penhaul, that this former president is now possibly thinking about forcing his way back into his country. He's already been denied on several occasions, once coming in by helicopter. Another occasion where he had apparently tried to negotiate with Oscar Arias and Micheletti, the presidents of both respective countries.
But now, it appears he's going to try to walk into the country from Nicaragua. And obviously, that's going to be a very dramatic scene if and when it happens. We are watching it for you. We got Karl Penhaul there. We got a life picture on it. Anything that develops, we'll bring it for you here on CNN.
In the meantime, we're going to stay on top of the latest breaking news here in our own country and that's the president of the United States backing down somewhat, trying to turn down the heat -- perhaps even offering a mea culpa after what he had said by taking sides in the case of the Harvard Professor Henry Louis Gates.
I'm going to be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Breaking news happening right now in Central America, this one is on the border between Nicaragua and Honduras. For those of you who have been following our newscast for quite some time, you know the situation in Honduras where the president was ousted, some say through a -- in large measure through a coup.
Now, what we are being able to see are live pictures of this president, Zelaya, trying to force his way back into his country by walking across the border from Nicaragua back into Honduras. Now, this is not something you see on live television every day, a story like this unfolding out of the blue. But that's exactly what's going on.
We've got a series of experts that might be able to help take us through this. One of those who's also been following this is He has (INAUDIBLE) stepped away 60 yards in my estimation from a rusty chain that marks the borderline between Nicaragua and Honduras. He is 50 yards inside of Nicaragua and 10 yards across the other side, 10 yards inside of Honduras. There, a committee of police officers and soldiers are waiting to arrest him, Rick. , one of our correspondents in CNN Espanol. He's there now following the situation for us out of Washington, D.C.
Do you know, Carlos, if the president had -- former president, I should say, had actually made any attempts to get back into the -- is that what he's really trying to do or is he just trying to get a whole lot of attention?
JUAN CARLOS LOPEZ, CNN ESPANOL: It might be just today a whole lot of attention, Rick, because recently he was speaking with our colleagues over the phone saying that his first goal today is to negotiate with the police and military at the border to get them to recognize him as deposed president. He is a deposed president -- to recognize him as president and to let him in.
But he hasn't said that he will cross the line, that he would go into Honduras. Obviously, if he does, the de facto government has said he will be arrested. So, so far, it might be a measure to gain attention.
Another reason I say this, Rick, is because the State Department in their briefing today said that he had told them he would not go in because he's expected in Washington on Tuesday. So, this might be just to keep on -- keep the attention on this situation. He was deposed by the current government in Honduras.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
LOPEZ: And he claims that he is the legitimate president.
SANCHEZ: Yes. Everybody seems to be claiming these days that they're the legitimate president.
Eric Farnsworth is joining us, as well. He's with the Council of the Americas.
You know, you could look at this story both ways and come up with some conclusion to your benefit. What do you make of what this president's doing and what his assertions have been? Eric Farnsworth, are you there?
Oh, he's still getting his mike on.
All right. As soon as we get a chance to go to him.
Let's listen. Raj (ph), take the picture full view you possibly can. Let's see if we can listen in to what the president is saying once again.
He's doing -- he keeps doing these radio interviews, I think, on telephone or talking to family members. Let's see what he's saying and what he's trying to accomplish.
(PEOPLE SPEAKING SPANISH)
SANCHEZ: All right. It looks like he's signaling over to -- he's now signaling over to the Honduran side, and he's telling someone on the Honduran side, "Tell him to come over." Now, remember, Karl Penhaul had told us he was trying to get his...
(PEOPLE SPEAKING SPANISH)
SANCHEZ: "Where is Olivia," he now asks. Remember, Karl Penhaul had told us he was trying to meet up with his family at the border. We haven't seen them.
"And I want to see -- I want to see my kids. I want to see my wife. I want to see Xiomara." I'm translating what the president is saying there at the border, trying to get into the country. And then he signaled with his hand. You saw that earlier. He said, "let them come over."
Professor Farnsworth, Eric Farnsworth, this is one hell of a spectacle. What do you make of this?
ERIC FARNSWORTH, COUNCIL OF AMERICAS: The president is clearly trying to force the issue. He's trying to return to the presidency and to Tegucigalpa. He's trying to get the de facto government, to President Micheletti to react. He's trying to force a reaction and either he goes home to Tegucigalpa or he gets arrested, but either way the calculation has to be that he wins.
Now, this is a media show and he's clearly doing it for his own purposes. There's no question about it.
SANCHEZ: What if it backfires? He goes all the way to the border, tries to step over, the police officers arrest him, they throw him in jail and no more chance of him coming back and becoming president, not if you're in the brig, right?
FARNSWORTH: Well, that's correct. Except for the fact that now, he becomes a martyr and he has the international support already behind him for the most part and this would only intensify that and intensify the pressure on the Micheletti government, frankly, to release him and to release him very quickly.
So, the calculation has to be that he wins either way -- either he's arrested or he's not, but he wins.
SANCHEZ: From what you know of this guy, what's your best bet here? Is this the kind of guy who's going to really force the issue and allow himself to be martyred, as you say, or arrested -- or is this guy really just all about show and going to the boarder to make sure he gets a lot of attention on the world stage?
FARNSWORTH: Well, there's certain a lot of the latter, but I think he's going to force the issue. Look, he tried to come into the country a couple weeks ago by airplane. He came in with a television crew from Telesur. He was trailed by various presidents from around the region.
He's very serious about returning to Tegucigalpa, and frankly, if he gets arrested, so be it. He's going to force the Micheletti government to react in that way or not. But I don't see him hanging out at the border and not crossing it or not forcing the issue. I think this is all has been his plan.
SANCHEZ: Kevin Casas-Zamora is with the Brookings Institute. He's joining us as well. You're watching this drama unfold. Now, what's your take?
KEVIN CASAS-ZAMORA, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: Well, I totally agree with Eric. He's trying to force the issue. This is -- this is all very irresponsible.
SANCHEZ: Irresponsible?
CASAS-ZAMORA: Yes, profoundly irresponsible. I mean, this is a country that is certainly not on the brink of civil war as some people have claimed, but there's some serious potential for civil unrest. I mean, bear in mind that this is a country that is heavily armed. Everyone has a gun in Honduras, and that's not good when you have a situation of political polarization.
SANCHEZ: So, you're saying the president by his actions could actually spark a violent episode that could lead to real problems in Central America like we saw back in the early 1980s?
CASAS-ZAMORA: I mean, not the same kind of problems that we saw in the 1980s because -- actually I'm saying that the potential for civil war is actually very low. And historically speaking, levels of political violence in Honduras have been low, but the potential for civil unrest for sure.
SANCHEZ: Isn't this what Chavez wants? Is it -- I mean, let's face it. This is the kind of thing, as instigators, which we know to a certain extent they are, not to cast negative aspersions -- but this is the kind of thing that Fidel Castro used to do throughout Latin- American and the thing that Chavez now does. I mean, causing this kind of havoc is a good thing from his standpoint, wouldn't it be?
CASAS-ZAMORA: The short answer is yes.
SANCHEZ: Yes. What's the long answer?
CASAS-ZAMORA: The long answer is that it's probably not exactly the same thing as Fidel Castro used to do, but I think that the more turmoil is created in the region, the better for Hugo Chavez.
SANCHEZ: Eric, do you agree? Eric, do you agree?
FARNSWORTH: I totally agree with that. In fact, I think you see the Venezuelan handprints all over this. Look, President Zelaya is traveling right now with the foreign minister of Venezuela.
SANCHEZ: OK.
FARNSWORTH: You know, the Venezuelans have, you know, supplied the airplanes to try to have him come back a couple of weeks ago. Their handprints have been all over this and I think they're very much behind it as well.
SANCHEZ: Let's listen in once again to see what the president is saying now. And then I'll come back and get the response from both of you, gentlemen. Let's see if we can learn -- because we're literally learning this story from his own words. Crank it up, Raj (ph).
(REPORTER SPEAKING SPANISH)
SANCHEZ: He says the president of the United States -- the president of the United States -- the President Zelaya says that he has time and he has the disposition and the patience to be able to do this well.
What's he saying there, fellows? Eric, let me begin with you.
FARNSWORTH: He's going to pick his moment. He's going to draw this out as long as possible. He's not going to cross this instance, but I think it is imminent. He's very much a showman, he's very much playing to the world stage right now. And he's going to try to pick his moment for maximum impact -- there is no doubt.
SANCHEZ: Lanny Davis is about to join us with this, as we know, former White House counsel -- pardon me -- White House adviser for President Clinton. He's got a take on this, as well.
Let me ask you, Kevin. You heard what the president just said there. It doesn't sound to me like from what he said that he's going to be rushing the border any moment now. We're down to 20 seconds.
CASAS-ZAMORA: No. He's going to bask in the attention. He's going to bask in the attention and that's exactly the direct consequence of the mediation talks failing, you know?
SANCHEZ: Let me just stop you there. I'm going to let you continue. But we're switching over now from CNN to the CNN after show. That's CNN.com/live -- CNN.com/live. Go there and join us if you're interested in the resolution of this story as we watch it.
In the meantime, I'm taking it to Washington from New York, and here's my buddy and my colleague, Wolf Blitzer. Wolf?
