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Vice President Biden Speaks Out on Russia; Obama Pitches Health Care Plan to Main Street; Iran Protests Across the Globe; Pres. Obama Calls Professor Gates and Sgt. Crowley; Racial Profiling in America: Real or Imagined?; Cambridge Cops Support Their Own; Author E. Lynn Harris Dies
Aired July 25, 2009 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, careful what you say. The vice president's explosive and critical comments about Russia's past president and future. He's grabbing headlines. Tonight, the Russians respond and the White House.
Tough week. The president losing ground on health care and reform. And trying to safe base over a racially charged issue that is dividing the nation. What's his next move?
Let's talk. What should the president, the professor and the police officer discuss if they meet over a beer? White privilege, black anger? They might not, but our experts will and so will you. So let's talk right now.
Good evening, everyone. I'm Don Lemon.
You know, we're used to Vice President Joe Biden speaking his mind. After all, that is one reason President Obama picked him. But as Biden wraps up a trip overseas to Georgia and Ukraine, his candor is again making headlines.
In an interview with the "Wall Street Journal," the vice president abandoned the typical diplomatic niceties and says things about the Russian government no one else in the Obama administration is saying, at least not publicly.
"They have a shrinking population base," he says. "They have a withering economy. They have a banking sector and structure that is not likely to be able to withstand the next 15 years. They're in a situation where the world is changing before them and they're clinging to something in the past that is not sustainable."
Well, the Russian government tonight is a little perplexed by those comments. "Interfax" and "The New York Times" reports the chief foreign policy adviser to Russia's president as saying, quote, "If some members of Obama's team and government do not like this atmosphere, why don't they say so? If they disagree with the course of their president, we just need to know this."
And just moments ago, White House spokesman Robert Gibbs issued a statement saying, "Working together to advance security and prosperity for the American and Russian people is the focus of our effort to reset relations. The vice president and the president believe Russia will work with us, not out of weakness, but out of national interest."
Well, candid talk like this is a rarity in diplomatic circles. What does it all mean?
For that we turn to David Gergen, a veteran White House adviser and a CNN senior political analyst.
What does it all mean, David?
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (via telephone): Well, it means -- what should Joe Biden say? I should have calibrated my remarks somewhat differently.
LEMON: We've heard those words this week.
GERGEN: Somehow we heard those words somewhere else.
Joe Biden is a valued member inside the administration. The president obviously relies on him heavily for foreign policy council especially, because that is his area of great strength. But once again, I'm afraid he's gotten off message and spoken out in ways that were very awkward, if not, you know, diplomatically difficult for the president.
And in contrast to what he said earlier about, you know, we misread the early signals on the economy, I don't think that hurt much to tell the truth. It was an insight that was important to get out there.
This one, while true, is very difficult. It is damaging to international relations because the United States wants to -- needs Russia to help us with Iran, to help us with North Korea, to help us on energy issues, on nuclear proliferation. There's a whole series of things.
While it's true that Russia is a weakened country, it's still -- it's been important for the Obama administration to reset that relationship. And what's central to the Russians is to be treated with respect. They're looking for other nations, especially United States, to treat them with enormous respect. And Joe Biden himself said, I don't want to embarrass him but, you know, that's exactly -- I'm afraid what has happened here.
Think of it if some -- if a major Russian leader had said something similar about the United States, how angry people would be here.
LEMON: And, David, you know, there was some talk during the election that Joe Biden might be picked as a secretary of state because of his foreign policy experience.
GERGEN: Right.
LEMON: And that foreign policy experience is one reason that the president picked him. You know, you're not behind those closed doors there but you have worked for a number of presidents on both sides, Republican and Democrat. Might the White House and the people in the administration, including the president, be grimacing right now saying, you know, why did you say that?
GERGEN: Well, I think they're wincing. And, you know, the truth is, Don, this is a kind of conversation that people in government and foreign policy often have with a reporter but off the record.
LEMON: Right.
GERGEN: So that it can't be used. It's a way to express, you know, to put and paint a picture. And I'm sure there are some in the administration who share his view. What was damaging here, and I think what the importance of the white house response tonight was in effect, it said they're so weak, they're going to work with us out of weakness. It suggested, you know, that this is a country that has no choice but to work with us out of weakness. And the administration tonight through Robert Gibbs, the press secretary at the White House, issued a statement saying we believed they would -- the president and vice president believe they will not work with us out of weakness, but out of national security interest.
Well, they clearly had to clarify and they had to back pedal. And this is one of those -- another one of those moments. Joe Biden remains a valued member of this administration. But I'm sure there are people inside who wish, you know, how do we retain the value and stop these somewhat errant comments.
LEMON: David, I'm up against other news here.
GERGEN: Sure.
LEMON: But is this just a -- is this just a speed bump? Is this fixable?
GERGEN: It is. But, you know, coming on top of the Gates thing, this is exactly what the administration does not need right now, and it's not what they need in foreign policy.
LEMON: All right. David Gergen, we appreciate it. Thank you, sir.
GERGEN: Thank you as well.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: On a Saturday night. It is important. David Gergen joining us on a Saturday night, so you know, not often. And the White House releasing a statement as well. So you can imagine how important this is.
President Barack Obama is doctoring his health care reform sales pitch after Congress derailed a quick vote he had hope for. In his weekly address, the president says he can save small businesses in your neighborhood by lowering health care costs. But Republicans, well, they simply aren't buying it. I want you to listen to both sides right now. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: These are the mom and pop stores and restaurants, beauty shops and construction companies that support families and sustain communities. They are the tiny start-ups with big ideas, hoping to become the next Google or Apple or HP. And it's shown in a new report released today by the White House counsel of economic advisers. Right now they are getting crushed by skyrocketing health care costs.
REP. CATHY MCMORRIS RODGERS (R), WASHINGTON: The Democrats' health care plan crafted largely behind close doors isn't the right thing. It's a prescription for disaster. One that will put Washington bureaucrats in charge of your family's personal medical decisions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: lawmakers stayed on topic about health care today, but all week Mr. Obama has been fighting to hold focus after landing in the center of a snowballing racially charged debate. Our discussion on the president, the professor and the politics, it starts in about ten minutes. On the police officer, I should say -- it starts in about ten minutes and you're going to be a part of it as well.
Sarah Palin leaves office tomorrow but not before saying good-bye to the people who elected her.
Palin is holding several picnics across the state of Alaska, and the lieutenant governor takes over that state tomorrow. No word on Palin's future plans except for a book deal and a speech at the Ronald Reagan library.
A quick reminder, Sarah Palin will deliver a farewell speech tomorrow night at 7:00 p.m. Eastern. Make sure you join me here in the CNN NEWSROOM to watch it live right here on CNN.
A shootout in Afghanistan between the Taliban and security forces ended with at least seven suicide attackers dead. It happened today in the city of Khost on the Afghan-Pakistani border.
Government officials telling CNN the Taliban insurgents were suicide vest and brandished machine guns when they struck a bank, a police station and a military hospital. More than a dozen people were wounded, most of them civilians.
It is Election Day for Iraq's largely self-ruling Kurds. Voters steadily streamed into polling places, casting ballots for president and parliament. Mainstream groups are widely expected to hold onto power, but many of the voters are looking for a shake-up. The big issues -- rising tensions with Baghdad over oil and land, and allegations of government corruption.
All over the world today, people are demanding the release of hundreds of Iranians arrested after the June presidential election. The protest stretched across six continents and 100 cities. We begin tonight in Chicago where protesters gathered in support of the Iranian prisoner recently freed. Iranian-American journalist Roxana Saberi was a keynote speaker. Saberi lived in Iran for six years and has dual citizenship, but was arrested in January and charge with spying for the U.S.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROXANA SABERI, FREED IRANIAN-AMERICAN JOURNALIST: I'm very, very touched that, first of all that all of you have turned out here on this very important day, and that you're speaking out for few Iranians, who's voices cannot be heard as well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And Washington, demonstrators march from the U.N. office downtown to the White House. Nobel peace prize Laurie Jody Williams called for human rights in Iran and an end to the violence following the June 12th presidential election.
In New York City, crowds gathered outside the United Nations building demanding U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon to send a delegation to Iran to investigate the fate of the detainees. They are also demanding the immediate release of all political prisoners and journalists.
And in London, protesters waved green flags and wore green wrist bands, the color of the opposition party in Iran. They also blindfolded and gagged and tied themselves together, symbolic, they say, of protesters silenced in Iran after the election.
When the president said police acted stupidly in Cambridge, Massachusetts, it was time for officers to call for backup.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
Not only Sergeant Crowley but the men and the women, the officers of the Cambridge police department who are good, upstanding officers did not deserve this. Did not deserve this negative attention. Did not deserve it at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: The police, the professor and the president. The story you have been talking about. So what next?
A frank and honest conversation live right here.
And you are a part of it. We want you to log in. Twitter, Facebook, MySpace or iReport.com. We will get your questions on the air.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: President Obama says he is looking forward to hosting professor Henry Louis Gates and Cambridge police sergeant James Crowley at the White House. He talked with both men yesterday by phone. He spoke first with Officer Crowley, whom he called a good man. Later he called Professor Gates, who he says, he's glad to hear -- was glad to hear from the president.
In an e-mail to me, Gates says, "Yes, I was very pleased that the president called me, and I was pleased that he proposed that I meet the sergeant -- Sgt. Crowley at the White House since I had offered to meet him since last Monday."
And last night I spoke with Gates' attorney, Charles Ogletree. And I asked him if he was amazed that the president would call both men directly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLES OGLETREE, PROFESSOR GATES' ATTORNEY: Well, if you know President Barack Obama like I do, it's not amazing at all. He wrote in his book "Destiny and hope" about the very same thing, the indignities that he experienced, things that he couldn't quite understand. He's worried about his children might be affected by that. And so, it's a conversation that we all tip around, but now we have an opportunity, indeed, an obligation to have a conversation about race in America in a way that might move us all forward.
The election of President Obama was the spark that generated this conversation, but trying to govern all of us, taking personal responsibility, all of us, understanding our brothers' keeper, all of us will make an enormous amount of difference.
LEMON: Is Professor Gates going to sue?
OGLETREE: I don't know.
LEMON: Why not?
OGLETREE: Because that decision hasn't been made. Right now, he's not thinking about suing. He's thinking about resting and meeting with the President and Sergeant Crowley, and thinking about some other dialogues.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: My conversation in Boston last night. And, tonight, make sure you stay with us at the bottom of the hour. We're going to have a live panel discussion about this.
You heard Mr. Ogletree say we need to have a conversation in the country. We're going to have it tonight -- open, honest, frank. So make sure you don't miss it, coming up at the bottom of the hour.
Powerful minds slamming to powerful storms, I should say, and wind slam into east Florida this weekend. Along for a ride, a devastating tornado. Our Jacqui Jeras tells us all about it.
Hi, Jacqui. JACQUI JERAS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Hey, there, Don. Yes. A real rough weekend all across the state of Florida, and thunderstorms are moving into the northeast. If you have travel plans, you wouldn't want to miss our forecast tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: A sudden tornado tears through a community on Florida's East Coast, leaving dozens of neighbors with a monstrous cleanup project. The twister slam chunks of mobile home into trees in Port Orange, and it sent debris flying across yards. One person was hospitalized with minor injuries from flying glass. More than 160 homes are damaged.
Jacqui Jeras, that's not the only bad weather we have going on across the country.
(WEATHER REPORT)
LEMON: All right. Jacqui, thank you very much.
So brace for it, eh?
JERAS: Yes.
LEMON: All right. Something is brewing in Massachusetts, and one woman is spilling the beans on how she hopes to cash in on it.
Plus, forget about who do you think is right or who do you think is wrong? Where do we go from here? Experts on race, live in the NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: There's an old saying, I'm sure you've heard it. Do something you love and you'll never work a day in your life.
CNN's Stephanie Elam found a woman whose passion for coffee has given her a new daily grind.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Lucy Valena is hooked on coffee.
LUCY VALENA, OWNER, VOLTAGE COFFEE: I had my first shot of espresso when I was 14. And it was pretty amazing for me.
ELAM: With the dream of opening a coffee house, Valena went to Seattle to learn at the aprons of the best.
VALENA: I just saw this barista pour that Rosetta, and I said I'm not leaving this town until I learn how to do that.
ELAM: Valena returned to Boston and last fall launched Voltage Coffee, a mobile espresso catering company, her corporate headquarters.
VALENA: This is where all the magic happens, yes.
ELAM: Valena knew her business acumen could use a jolt. So with the help of a few aides...
VALENA: I wrote my business plan with all of these "Business Plan Writing for Dummies" and all these things.
ELAM: Valena then took her plan to the Small Business Administration and was directed to a ACCION USA, a company specializing in microloans. It had just begun a partnership with Samuel Adams to help small food and beverage businesses get funding and free advice.
JIM KOCH, FOUNDER, SAMUEL ADAMS: I love Lucy's dedication to the quality of her product. And I'm a big believer that, you know, a great product and the patience that an entrepreneur brings to that can carry a long way if you have a helping hand.
ELAM: Valena started Voltage with her $2,000 and the $4,000 loan she got through the Sam Adams Brewing the American Dream Program.
VALENA: So cover the espresso machine, the grinders, my tables, some membership costs, licensing, and my costs for a few months with the commercial kitchen facility that I used.
ELAM: Now she's focused on a store front, but she has to incorporate, find a space, and get a loan.
VALENA: I need to convince someone to give me $180,000. That's a good chunk of change.
ELAM: Despite the economy, Valena remains undaunted.
VALENA: I'm just going to keep working at it. I'm not letting up. I'm not letting up, Boston. I don't care.
(LAUGHTER)
ELAM: Stephanie Elam, CNN, Jamaica Plain, Massachusetts.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: All right, get ready. If you did not see our 7:00 show, you missed a really great conversation. And we're about to have another one, live. Open, honest, no holding back.
Issues of raise rose to the forefront this week in a stunning way. And our guests are ready to weigh in. And we're going to take your questions, and we're going to be open and honest, guys. We're just going to talk about it, right?
Shake your heads.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely.
LEMON: Just a few minutes away. We're back in a moment. Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON (voice-over): Now on CNN.
It started innocently enough. One neighbor looking out for another.
JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A woman in the neighborhood saw what was going on and mistook it for a crime in progress, calling police. Reporting two African-American men with backpacks trying to force their way in. Turns out, one of those African-American men lived in the home. A prominent scholar, and a friend of President Obama's.
When the cops showed up, the trouble had just begun.
SGT. JAMES CROWLEY, CAMBRIDGE, MASSACHUSETTS POLICE: I was continuously telling him to calm down during this whole exchange, because I really didn't want this either. I really didn't want to take such a drastic action, because I knew that it was going to bring in a certain amount of attention, unwanted attention, on me.
Nonetheless, that's how far Professor Gates pushed it and provoked and just wouldn't stop.
PROF. HENRY GATES, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: What it made me realize was how vulnerable all black men are. How vulnerable all people of color are and all poor people to capricious forces like a rogue policeman.
LEMON: One officer supporting Sergeant Crowley said he heard Gates say this.
SGT. LEON LASHLEY, CAMBRIDGE MASSACHUSETTS POLICE: This is how a black man is treated in America. A white woman calls the police and he gets arrested for breaking into his own home.
LEMON: The case was basically dropped until this question to the president --
LYNN SWEET, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, CHICAGO SUN-TIMES: Recently Professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. was arrested at his home in Cambridge. What does that incident say to you, and what does it say about race relations in America?
OBAMA: I don't know not having been there and not seeing all the facts, what role race played in that. The Cambridge police acted stupidly in arresting somebody when there was already proof that they were in their own home. LEMON: From a simple arrest, to a presidential smack down, to a defiant police department calling out the commander-in-chief.
DENNIS O'CONNOR, POLICE UNION PRESIDENT: As far as the president's comments, the governor's comments, and comments that I did not hear that our mayor made, I think when the time is right, they should make an apology to us. I think the president should make an apology to all law enforcement personnel.
OFFICER KELLY KING, CAMBRIDGE, MASSACHUSETTS POLICE: I supported him. I voted for him. I will not again. I agree that I think it's admirable that he would speak on behalf of his friend, but he should have refused himself. He should have stepped back and he should have said, I support my friend, but I don't have all the facts. I won't weigh in yet.
LEMON: The president felt the pressure and the need to explain.
OBAMA: The fact that it has garnered so much attention I think is a testimony to the fact that these are issues that are still very sensitive here in America. And so to the extent that my choice of words didn't illuminate, but rather contributed to more media frenzy, I think that was unfortunate.
LEMON: He proposes a meeting at the White House. So what happened when the president, the professor and the police officer sit down? Let's talk right now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: All right, let's talk. Why don't we? And we want you to weigh in as well. So if you can logon to any of the social media sites, we'll take your comments.
First up, Emory University Professor Andra Gillespie is here in our Atlanta studio. Writer and activist Tim Wise joins us from Nashville. And James Andrews is a blogger and a social media expert. He has written about many social issues, especially the present topic. He joins us now via Skype to tell us how to have this conversation online, to try to get as many people involved as possible.
OK, where should they start?
Since I have you here, Andrea, where do they start in their conversation and where do we?
ANDRA GILLESPIE, EMORY UNIVERSITY: Well, for President Obama, Professor Gates and Sergeant Crowley, they need to start to humanize one another. So when they meet, they need to figure out where they have common ground. They may be all married men. They may have children. They may share a love of the same sport. And once people get to see the common ground, then they can more delicately delve into a lot of the tough topics that they need to discuss about what happened and clear up some of these misunderstandings that transpired a week and a half ago. LEMON: Yes. But are they still going to see each other? And I ask you this, Tim, when they walk into a room, are they going to see each other as, OK, here's the police officer. He's a white guy. Here's the black guy, who is the professor at the university. And then, you know, here is the president, who is black.
Are they going to see -- I know, you know, people say we don't see race, but we all see race. We all see race.
TIM WISE, AUTHOR, "WHITE LIKE ME": Of course. But I mean, look, the issue is not. And I think we need to be clear about this, whether Sergeant Crowley is a racist or whether Professor Gates acted belligerently. My guess is Crowley is a fairly decent guy and Professor Gates was angry for being accused of burglarizing his own home.
The real issue that I think they need to talk about is not whether or not these individuals are bad or acted badly. The question is, is it possible that the initial caller, the witness, the woman who made the call, thought that this was a burglar because he was black in a way she wouldn't have had he been white? Is it possible that Sergeant Crowley, though, he is not by all appearances a bigot in any sense of the word, may have perceived Professor Gates' behavior as more belligerent than he would have had this been a white person?
And the reason I ask that question is that we have about 20 to 30 years of social science research which says very clearly that white folks, whether they are cops or just average citizens will oftentimes view the behavior of black people as more negative, more dangerous, more aggressive, even more criminal than they would the very same behavior engaged in by a white person. And they don't do that because they're bigots or racists or bad people, but because of internalized what are called implicit biases. They don't make us bad, but they happen. We need to have that conversation.
LEMON: Well, I've got to say as you were saying, as you said implicit bias. Andra was here mouthing the same words. And I'm sure there are people at home who are watching this going, come on, we hear this all the time. That's not true.
WISE: Well, Don, let me give you one real world example that I think is perfect. In the early '90s, I lived in New Orleans, Louisiana. I was 22, 23 years old, just out of college.
One day I locked myself out of my car. I was trying to break in to the car using a coat hanger. A cop drove up, got out of his car, and instead of asking me, hey, is this your car? He didn't ask for proof. He didn't say a word except, you know, you're doing that wrong. Let me show you the proper way to break into a vehicle. He then proceeded to pull out a slim-Jim and try to break in to my car for me.
Now anybody who thinks that a 22-year-old or 23-year-old black man in this country would have had that experience is either insane or they are high. LEMON: And I got to -- OK, Tim, I got to tell you, growing up in Louisiana on, in Baton Rouge, not far from New Orleans, I would get stopped as a young man in my parents' nice car, my parents were professional, and they would say, where did you get this car?
WISE: Right.
LEMON: And I would have to show all of the identification about, you know, my parents' car. And then they would call my parents.
WISE: Right.
LEMON: So that's a completely different experience.
James, I'm not sure if you had that experience as well. You have written about this online. You can talk to us about your experience of what you have been hearing folks saying online in the social media.
JAMES ANDREWS, CO-FOUNDER, EVERYWHERE: Sure. In my experience, you know, I grew up -- my mother was Italian, my grandfather was a German-born Jew and my father is West Indian. But I, too, have been on the ground, you know, by the police, you know, pulled over for no reason.
What I'm seeing online, what we've been doing and hearing conservations are people talking. And thinking about the online space is it gives people sort of -- it gives them a space to talk about things, but sometimes not share who they are. And for white people, I think, it's -- we've heard a lot of vocal voices.
If you look at the "Boston Globe" and story, you see a lot of angry white people that are upset by Professor Gates. I think this is a moment in time. This is a moment in history where we can galvanize. The White House needs to use social media to open up this dialogue, and not make it about those three individuals, but make it about open town hall discussion forum.
LEMON: But, you know, I see a lot of angry black people as well, who are angry at Sergeant Crowley.
ANDRA GILLESPIE, EMORY UNIVERSITY: Yes.
LEMON: Who were saying, you know what, absolutely. And I met him personally. And I do. I think he's a bigot from meeting him personally? No, I don't. I was not at the house. I don't know what's going on. I'm sure the truth is somewhere in a middle. We're not really discussing that. That's just a catalyst to get this conversation going.
We want to talk more about this conversation, and how we bring some resolution to this, a solution. So more from this distinguished panel after a break.
Plus, standing by their man. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) OFFICER KELLY KING, CAMBRIDGE, MASSACHUSETTS POLICE: There has been a tremendous rush to judgment, and I think the thing to be learned first and foremost from this is to look at all of the evidence, to consider all, to weigh all. I think Professor Gates has done a very good job of filling up a very effective smoke screen calling race into this. It had nothing to do with it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right. Time now for some of your feedback and our experts are listening, and they will probably weigh in on some of this. Here's a question that says, "Why didn't a black cop step up and really intervene?"
PS1968 says, "As long as people and the news media keep making race an issue, it will continue to be an issue. People are people, get with it."
You know, we didn't go on the police call. We're just reporting it.
Joanneb118 says, "Teachable moment. Gates overreacted and the police officer did his job. Get over it. Cop taught classes on racial profiling."
Rigo3078 says, "This is a teachable moment and a great time to have a real discussion on race relations. I hope President Obama uses the opportunity."
Miss Sunshine says, "Do you think too much testosterone or racism had more influence on the arrest?"
Let's talk about one of those. I'm going to -- let's talk about the one who said, he taught diversity, so, therefore, get over it.
Andra, does that make a difference?
GILLESPIE: Well, that certainly works in Sergeant Crowley's favor to suggest that he's in fact not a bigot and is more sensitive than perhaps we initially gave him credit for.
LEMON: And people say if he taught about diversity and about how not racially profile, and he lives in Cambridge, then he should have known Professor Gates.
GILLESPIE: Well, that's a potential issue. But the other part of it is you can teach diversity and you can be aware of diversity, but you still always have to be on your guard for your own self- conscious and implicit attitudes to come to the forefront.
I teach African-American politics. I study this for my living. But that doesn't mean I don't have to deal with my own prejudiced attitudes, and I have to check them. So you are quite capable of having a racist moment even when you are on the whole racially progressive.
LEMON: Go ahead, Tim.
WISE: Yes. If I could add to that. You know, five years ago, when I wrote my memoir "White Like Me," I tell a story in there about the fact that even though, even after 11 or 12 years of doing anti- racism work, not just diversity work which could mean anything and nothing, but anti-racism work, even after that experience of doing that for 12 years, I got an airplane to go to a conference that we're actually going to be discussing racism and white privilege at the conference, and I got on the plane and for the first time I had two black men at the pilot controls. And it never happened before.
Now I understand why racism is completely based on false thinking, but what was the first purely emotional thought that popped into my head? Unfortunately, it was not, free at last, free at last. Thank God almighty, we're free at last. It was, instead, oh, my God, can these guys actually fly the plane?
Now the good news is I caught myself and I stifled that belief, and I realized how absurd it was. But the point is, even I had it. If we're going to have an honest conversation about race in this country, those of us who are white are going to have to step up and admit that we have been conditioned to have those reactions just as men have been conditioned to have sexist reactions with regard to women. We can fight those reactions, but not if we do not acknowledge them.
LEMON: Why is it -- I want to ask you this, Tim. And I -- I don't know if I ever asked this question.
What is -- why do white people get so upset when there's any insinuation of bias, prejudice or racism if you bring it up just to even sort of get it out there on the table to get it over with?
GILLESPIE: Well, I think we've come to think that racism is a personal, individual level thing so that if I say that a comment or an action or a joke or whatever was racist, the person thinks I'm calling them a bigot. This is not so much about bigotry. It's not about individual level biases except insofar as we're all conditioned to have them.
What racism is, is a social condition, a structural reality, and if you were raised in an environment in which that is everywhere, the odds of you somehow escaping it, not being affected by it, are infinitesimally small. It's not going to happen. If we would acknowledge that it isn't personal. As the old saying goes, this ain't personal, it's business. And understand that we must be about the business of undoing it, both at the individual and institutional level. We wouldn't have to get so incensed.
LEMON: But isn't it -- isn't it in a sense that sometimes people are not even aware of it. I've been -- you know, I've been saying, if you don't live it, you don't know it.
And sometimes I talk to people and they're not even aware that it is. Sometimes it's a culture. Sometimes it's something that you have been thought through media and the way a certain neighborhood works, or a company works, or an environment works that you're not even aware of it.
WISE: Well, we have as white folks the privileged of what I called obliviousness right. The privilege of obliviousness. I don't have to know black and brown truth because it's not going to be on the test, right? No matter what it is that I have to know to get into a school, to graduate from a school, civil service exam, to get any job. I don't have to know what people of color experience.
On the other hand, people of color better know what white America thinks is important, or they will never get through school at all. That is a privileged, but it also means that we are left, really, with a huge blind spot around this subject.
GILLESPIE: The other thing that I think is hard is that in a post civil rights America, it's a lot more complex than it used to be. If we go back 50 years and look at the Jim Crow era, it was pretty stark. It was very black and white. You know, if you want to play on words.
There were lines for blacks and whites. There were waiting rooms for blacks and whites. Street cars and schools for blacks and whites, and people openly said the "N" word. It is not socially acceptable to do those things anymore. And so most people think that as long as, I don't say that black people are monkeys, or...
LEMON: If you don't let --
GILLESPIE: ...that there are explicit segregation.
LEMON: Right. Don't use the "N" word.
GILLESPIE: I don't use the "N" word.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: And there are certain things that are concrete.
But, you know, I always say, I'm not sure. Sometimes I don't have -- it's not, you know, concrete and tangible, but when the hair is on the back of your neck stand up, you know it. You know it when you see it, or you know it when you feel it.
GILLESPIE: And actually the sociological evidence suggests that blacks -- middle-class blacks in particular, will give people the benefit of the doubt and generally they will go to a friend, explain the incident. And the friend has to affirm that, that it was in fact a racial incident.
LEMON: It has happened to me. It has happened to me, or just ignorance.
Hey, James, I want to talk to you about this, because this story on social media was trending really highly in the beginning. But since the president, what has happened?
ANDREWS: Well, it's really gone down. You know, interestingly enough, your "BLACK IN AMERICA" series has become the popular, what we call Internet mean. "BIA" on Twitter is a popular trending topic right now.
So those -- you know, we're talking about this right now. We're talking about it on CNN, and you're actually opening up a dialogue to allow us to talk about it. And "BIA" is becoming part of that trend. We have a lot more work to do. But I think that this is an open opportunity for the White House, for all of us, CNN involved, to really open up the dialogue and the conversation.
LEMON: Yes. And, you know, I can imagine being a journalist, you know. And I'm being objective, but just by sitting here and saying, you know, people white people asking the questions, I'm going to get criticized from people. So it's kind of tough. But I think that we all need to have this conversation. The country needs to have this conversation. It is obvious from what happened in Cambridge, we all were not there, but it certainly caused a huge ruckus.
Tim, you know your work is just so amazing. And I respected you for a long time. I'm going to give you the last word on this. What is that teachable moment here that we need to take away?
WISE: I think the moment is very simple. The reality is that when people have different experiences with the institutions of the society, they're going to have different perceptions about reality. If we're going to bridge the perception gap, we're going to have to bridge the experience gap. And until people of color are treated equitably in policing, in housing and education, in the job market, don't be surprised when folks of color think racism is prevalent. If you want to have the perception issue be closer together, you have to get the experiences closer together.
LEMON: Tim, James, Andra, you guys were amazing. Thank you.
I wish, you know, we could have voted an entire hour to this.
This is the "pre-BLACK IN AMERICA 2" that we're doing here.
Thank you. Thank you, guys, so much for joining us. And it was a pleasure meeting all of you.
ANDREWS: Thank you.
GILLESPIE: Thank you.
LEMON: I'll talk to you soon. James, talk to you soon as well. Tim, I appreciate it.
WISE: Thank you.
LEMON: You know, it was time to round up the troops in Cambridge. Police officers showing support for their own.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER: Not only Sergeant Crowley but the men and the women, the officers of the Cambridge police department who are good, upstanding officers did not deserve this. Did not deserve this negative attention. Did not deserve it at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right. A story we're keeping our eye on this weekend. A second Chicago area cemetery is under investigation after human bone was found lying on the ground there.
The Cook County sheriff's office says it doesn't know if the discovery is a sign of a broader problem at the Mt. Glenwood Cemetery. Just days ago, according to "The Chicago Tribune," three people sued the cemetery alleging, quote, "Unauthorized tampering with gravesites."
Earlier this month, authorities charged four workers at the Burr Oak Cemetery with digging up hundreds of bodies and reselling plots.
Well, it's been a couple of days in Cambridge, Massachusetts, talking to people on both sides of the Professor Gates-Officer Crowley issue. Following yesterday's news conference, I spoke to several of Sergeant Crowley's colleagues with him there in the room listening, and I have to tell you, they were very passionate, and at point, pretty emotional.
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SGT. LEON LASHLEY, CAMBRIDGE MASSACHUSETTS POLICE: It happens to be a white officer on a black man and the common call a lot of times is to call it a racist situation. Don't get me wrong, it does happen. It has happened here in Cambridge. And I can't say it will not ever happen again in Cambridge. This situation right here was not a racial motivated situation.
LEMON: And you know people obviously, they're going to pay closer attention to you because you're an African-American man. I'm just being honest. You're supporting this white officer that has been put out there by some that he was racially profiling Dr. Gates. They're going to pay attention to you.
LASHLEY: I hope they would. They called him -- I heard one of the comments a rogue cop. There's nothing rogue about him. He was doing his job.
UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER: Not only Sergeant Crowley but the men and the women, the officers of the Cambridge police department who are good, upstanding officers did not deserve this. Did not deserve this negative attention. Did not deserve it at all.
LEMON: When you heard about what happened with this sergeant, what did you think?
KING: I was appalled. I know Jimmy. I have known him for more than 11 years with the Cambridge police. I knew him when he worked for Harvard. I know him to be a good police officer, a good man with character, and I knew these charges were bogus. There has been a tremendous rush to judgment. And I think the thing to be earned first and foremost from this is to look at all of the evidence, to consider all, to weigh all. I think Professor Gates has done a very good job of filling up a very effective smoke screen calling race into this. It had nothing to do with it.
LEMON: And the president?
KING: It's unfortunate. I supported him. I voted for him. I will not again. I agree that I think it's admirable that he would speak on behalf of his friend, but he should have refused himself. He should have stepped back and he should have said, I support my friend, but I don't have all the facts. I won't weigh in yet.
LEMON: And the governor?
KING: I would apply the same to him.
LEMON: What do you want the people around the country to know who may have already made up their minds about Sergeant Crowley?
KING: Keep their minds on. And realize that we would not support someone that we felt wronged someone else. We took this job to do the right thing. We all took this job to do the right thing. We would not support anyone in blue doing the wrong thing.
LEMON: I know you can't respond, you can't talk. You can -- you can nod your head. You got to be touched by this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: That was James Crowley standing there.
On the advice of council, he could not speak to us. But if that happens, if they allow him to speak, he says he's going to talk to us. And we'll bring him on, and we'll hear his full side of the story. So we hope that happens soon.
Good-bye to a literary pioneer. He detailed the lives of gay black men, but he also was a favorite for millions of women.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: And as the nation wrestles over health care reform, we focus on the uninsured and on horrific killer, breast cancer. Uninsured women are less likely to get annual mammograms and, therefore, are at greater risk. And black women are 37 percent more likely than whites to die from the disease.
This week's hero is fighting to better those odds for all women, and she is doing it by hitting the streets. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Heroes.
ANDREA IVORY, FLORIDA BREAST HEALTH INITIATIVE FOUNDER: In 2004, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. Initially, there's shock, but I realized how blessed I was to have health insurance. It made me think about all the women who didn't have health insurance. I wanted to make a difference in their lives.
I'm Andrea Ivory, and I am fighting breast cancer in south Florida one household at a time. The Florida Breast Health Initiative is an outreach organization. We're targeting working class people. We are going to make a difference and save some lives. We have a "take it to the streets" approach.
We feel like little pixies spreading breast cancer awareness.
May I ask you a few questions?
We target women that are 35 years or older and make appointments on the spot for free mammograms.
I look forward to seeing you. I'll be there.
Bringing the mobile mammography vans into the neighborhood is one of the most important facets of the work that we do. We provide a service that is so needed. I know I am saving lives.
You said it was free. So come right over and get it.
Is the lady of the house at home?
We are giving free mammograms on the 25th.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you so much. Take care.
IVORY: I was saved from breast cancer to serve other women. Every time I knock on the door, it is another opportunity to save a life.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LEMON: Find out more about Andrea's work and nominate a CNN hero of your own at cnn.com/hero. And guess what, next week is your last chance to tell us about your hero, because nominations close August 1st. So if you know a hero, go to cnn.com/heroes right now.
The literary world has lost a best-selling author who pioneered his own genre of fiction. E. Lynn Harris died Thursday night on a business trip to Los Angeles.
Harris will be remembered for novels that introduced millions of readers to the life of affluent, black, gay men. His characters were often masculine, complex and sometimes tormented while living double lives. His novels enjoyed a huge following among black women. In his book signings, well, they are often standing room only. Harris eventually became one of the nation's most popular writers with 4 million books in print. E. Lynn Harris dead at the age of 54.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: All right. Some of your comments. Let's go to the board here. Let's see.
Angelina247 says, "Don, there's only one color in the police department, blue. Officers better support officers who might have their back one day."
"Sad to say but real, I would caution our president as he is under enough pressure right now. Sadly, haters are lurking."
I can't read that name, Bacodebus (ph) says, "You show your bias when you act as a filter in discussion permitting some tweets to show and ignoring others. Bias matters."
No, I'm reading all of them. So there you go. No bias here. These are live coming in.
"The motivating factor, he came there to investigate a possible break in. If the professor proved he lived there, then he shouldn't."
"Very, very real. Talking about racial profiling. No matter how much money you have, some Caucasians will always see you as the "N" word."
"Based on my career experience, both the officer and the professor are wrong. They both need to accept the fact and move on."
I'm Don Lemon. I will see you back here tomorrow night, 6:00, 7:00 and 10:00 p.m. Eastern. I hope you enjoyed tonight our candid conversation.
Perfect segue. "Black in America 2," it starts right now. Good night.
