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Iranian Anger Erupts; Cold Beers at the White House; Health Care Debate
Aired July 30, 2009 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: This is the officer vs. the professor story that continues. And we are hours away now from the president sitting down with both for what some are calling the beer summit. But wait. There are now new and unfortunate developments in this story.
Just hours ago, a Boston police officer -- Did you hear about this? -- he was disciplined for essentially trying to, well, throw gasoline on this controversy. Officer Justin Barrett wrote an e-mail to a "Boston Globe" correspondent who had written about this case.
I'm going to read -- the thing reads unbelievably. I have chosen just a couple of excerpts to take you through, so you can kind of understand where this guy is coming from.
He writes: "If I was the officer he verbally assaulted like a banana-eating jungle monkey, I would have sprayed him in the face."
Number two: "I might as well axe you the question." He is talking to the reporter and specifically uses that word, axe. "I might as well axe you the question, is this your first test at reporting?" This is the police officer talking.
Number three -- quote -- "He, indeed, has transcended back to a bumbling jungle monkey, G-damn fool, and you, this article writer, a poor follower."
Those are the words of a Boston police officer. Boston's police commissioner, by the way, just a couple of hours ago, he came out. He announced a suspension and a possibly termination for this police officer for what he has written and said, saying the actions did not live up to his department's standards. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ED DAVIS, BOSTON POLICE COMMISSIONER: Officer Barrett's actions do not comply with these expectations. Barrett's e-mail was racist and inflammatory. These racist opinions and feelings have no place in this department or in our society, and will not be tolerated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: And it continues.
Meanwhile, two right-wing broadcasters, one on TV and the other on the radio, are calling the president a -- quote -- "racist" and -- quote -- "an angry Negro," respectively. We are going to discuss all of this at length with some of our guests.
But I want to begin with one person we hadn't heard from yet in this controversy, the woman who called police to report a suspected burglar at the home of Harvard Professor Henry Louis Gates. She wants her story to be heard. And here is her story, as told by our own Elaine Quijano.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Joined by her husband and her attorney, Lucia Whalen reluctantly came before the camera.
LUCIA WHALEN, GATES 911 CALLER: Cambridge is a wonderful place. And when I was called racist, and I was a target of scorn and ridicule because of the things I never said.
QUIJANO: What she never said in her 911 call to Cambridge police was that she saw two black men.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: And were they white, black, or Hispanic?
WHALEN: Well, there were two larger men. One looked kind of Hispanic but I'm not really sure. And the other one entered and I didn't see what he looked like at all.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
QUIJANO: But in his police report, Sergeant James Crowley said he spoke to Whalen on the scene and said Whalen described seeing, quote, "what appeared to be two black males with backpacks." That's not Whalen said she said.
WHALEN: As I said, the only words I exchanged where I was the 911 caller and he pointed to me and said, "Stay right there."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing more?
WHALEN: Nothing more than that.
QUIJANO: Asked about the discrepancy, a Cambridge police spokesman said that's an issue that could be reviewed in the future. In the meantime, for Lucia Whalen: vindication.
WHALEN: Now that the tapes are out, I hope people can see that I tried to be careful and honest with my words.
QUIJANO: And despite everything, Whalen says she'd do it all again.
WHALEN: You have to, you know, if you are concerned, if you're a concerned citizen, you should do the right thing. If you're seeing something that seems suspicious, I would do the same thing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SANCHEZ: Again, that's Lucia Whalen.
We wanted you to hear from her, because she's the one entity that really had been left out of this whole thing. She underscores that she was not racially profiling when she called 911.
But then there are thousands and thousands of you who have sent me e-mails. You have sent me iReports. I have been watching them all day. You have sent me tweets where you tell me that your experience tells you that the officers do this all the time, and that Crowley, Sergeant Crowley, was probably wrong, just as I have received many e- mails from probably the same amount of you telling me that your experience tells you that people who are racially profiled deserve to be racially profiled.
It's an interesting story that really is bringing out a lot of reactions as far as this national conversation, as we call it, is going.
Let's bring in somebody who knows a lot about this, because it has been his life's duty, Lou Palumbo. He's a retired officer from New York City. And he's good enough to join.
Officer Palumbo, thanks for being with us, sir.
LOU PALUMBO, FORMER NEW YORK CITY POLICE OFFICER: My pleasure.
SANCHEZ: First of all, what do you make of this Boston police officer who sent this e-mail to this "Boston Globe" reporter, where he sounds, he sounds bigoted, angry and hateful?
Well, basically, what I think of it is that he should look for other gainful employment. He has embarrassed his profession and he's supported the notion that policemen or law enforcement officers overall are racist, which it isn't the truth. I think what he's done is disgusting and it has helped facilitate more dialogue in a direction that we really don't need to go.
SANCHEZ: That's interesting. That's a strong reaction from you.
By the way, let me take you back to the original case. Sergeant Crowley, did he act stupidly?
PALUMBO: No, sir.
Quite candidly, Sergeant Crowley acted within his legal right. I am not suggesting that I would have handled the case the same way. But the fact of the matter is, when people act in a rather loud or boisterous or disturbing fashion, one of your options is, is to implement the law. And I think that's what he did.
It wouldn't have been my judgment necessarily, but he was within his legal right.
SANCHEZ: So, the president, then, you would argue, was wrong to use that word "stupidly" when describing Crowley's actions then, right?
PALUMBO: You're asking me to criticize the president.
SANCHEZ: I am.
(LAUGHTER)
PALUMBO: Yes. I think the president just got ahead of himself a little bit, maybe the byproduct of his relationship with Professor Gates. I think that we have to be careful not to rush to judgment.
SANCHEZ: Well...
PALUMBO: Let the investigation take place and see where the facts lie.
SANCHEZ: But when the president says this, now there are some people out there who are saying some pretty horrible things about the president. We have heard the lines, angry Negro. We even have one commentator calling him a racist.
By the fact that the president said this, perhaps erroneously -- perhaps the president said something stupidly himself -- does that make the president a racist?
PALUMBO: No, not in my opinion. That's the furthest thing I think about Barack Obama. I happen to have voted for him. And I think this guy is a very bright, talented and intelligent young man, just like his wife is -- a bright woman, that is.
SANCHEZ: Well, but it's interesting, because as a cop, you have had to deal with this your entire life. And there are people who bring to their experiences preconceived notions. They cause us all, whether it is about skinny people or overweight people or black people or Hispanic people like me or cops like you to often prejudge.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: It doesn't mean I'm a bad guy or you are a bad guy, but we do have these. How do you reconcile this as a cop?
PALUMBO: Well, the first thing is, you have to learn to think outside the box a little bit.
I don't think there is any secret as to how the black community has been treated at times by the white community, number one.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
PALUMBO: No less the police department.
And in the case of Professor Gates, I think what he was just upset. And I would have allowed him to continue to vent. And then I would have diffused it by basically surrendering the power to him through an apology and just saying, additionally, he should thank his neighbor for watching out for him. I don't think anything was gained by playing into it or feeding into it.
SANCHEZ: It's important to have this conversation, though, isn't it?
I get a feeling even talking to you -- and, by the way, I'm really enjoying this conversation. You seem like a real commonsensical person -- that this is the kind of conversation that people in this country should be having.
PALUMBO: Well, I think, quite candidly, there is a lot of ignorance, which is what festered this whole comment today by the Boston Police Department. And we have to once again go back to that interesting tool called education.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
PALUMBO: People have to learn about where they live.
And I do believe that we are making progress, not as rapidly as I personally would like to see us make it. But I think we are moving in the right direction. And I think through dialogue and education and exposure, that it will come about.
The one thing, Rick, you have to be mindful of, there is a lot of white America that lives polarized from black America. For example, if you go out to the West Coast, to California, for example, and this isn't a criticism of them, if you grow up in Manhattan Beach, Malibu, the Pacific Palisades, Hermosa Beach, any number of any one of these communities that are predominantly white, and then we insert you at 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 into an indigent neighborhood that's predominantly black, your insecurities and your fears kick in.
And the only knowledge you have regarding minorities is what you have learned on television. So, you have understand this a really interesting dynamic. It is not that complicated.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
PALUMBO: And again I always go back to saying, it is about training in the police department, it's about an exchange of ideas and it's about education. You have to educate people.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Well, well stated.
Lou Palumbo, a pleasure having you on, sir.
PALUMBO: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: All right. How much damage has the president done to himself? And, by the way, what about those who are now ripping him apart? Are they helping him or hurting him in this case? Think about that as you watch my conversation that's going to be coming up in a little bit with none other than Donna Brazile, who has an interesting take on this, herself. Also, can you imagine being a police officer at the end of this high-speed pursuit? Who or what is that getting out of the car? Stick around. What? Stick around. We are going to explain this one to you.
Also, remember this conversation doesn't end at 4:00 Eastern. Stick around because the TV version of our national conversation is over. Then we are going to switch over to CNN.com/live. That's right, CNN.com/live, where it really gets wild and woolly, 4:00 Eastern. I will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. Boy, a lot of you are weighing in on this conversation with had with Officer, retired Officer Lou Palumbo moments ago.
Let's start over here, if we possibly can, and hit our Facebook page.
"Not all cops are racist. There are some who think they are above the law."
Second: "Rick, this is the reason why minorities feel resentment towards policemen. There's always that small percentage that does damage."
And, finally, let's go to Justantinople right there, the third there. It says: "Police have become an elevated class of citizen. Many have forgotten their positions as public servants."
What do you think of this? By the way, one more, because it looks like a lot of you guys like my guest, so let's go over to the Twitter page, if we can, Robert. Flip that around. A lot of you guys really liked Mr. Palumbo.
"Mr. Lou Palumbo spoke with great insight, Rick. Invite him back again."
OK, we will.
All right, now I want you to look at something else. How many times have you seen this type of video? This is dash-cam video. It's a car chase. You know what's coming, right? Wrong. Get ready for a shock. Watch this. Watch who gets out of the car when this chase finally ends. It's a kid. It's a little kid. He is 7 years old. That's his family's car.
Somebody called the police after seeing the boy driving 40 miles an hour at one point. He knew what to do, though, sort of. He did stop the car, but then he just took off running from the police officer. What in the world was this 7-year-old up to? The boy told his dad that he just didn't want to go to church, so he drove away in the car.
This is crazy. The boy did not get a ticket, by the way. And we are still trying to figure out if he was wearing those footsie little pajamas, you know, the ones that resemble the Batman or Spider-Man costumes, like my kids wear. I'm just saying.
All right, stay right there. We're going to be getting some incredible protest pictures out of Iran in just a little bit. Now, we have been following this story for a while for you. But again today, there are protests.
And there is another story coming out of Iran. This is about a place called the evil jail that Western reporters are just now finding about. It is where they are sticking these protesters after they arrest them. And you are not going to believe what we are finding out today in Iran that they are doing to these protesters.
Stay with us. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: All right, welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Time to talk about Iran once again, because there is something going on in Iran once again, police and protesters in Iran and a lot of tear gas. Now, I would say, here we go again. But the public anger and some of the tension that we have been seeing in Tehran has never really died since the presidential election a month-and-a-half ago.
In some measure, you could almost argue that it's getting worse and so are some of the incidents around it, because there is something else now, something that seems really sinister when I was reading about it last night that I wanted to tell you about. There are reports that are coming out of Tehran from people just released from jail, protesters who say that they have been tortured, they have been starved, forced into false confessions, that families say that bodies are being turned into them of their loved ones, who apparently were in jail, bruised and battered, beaten, all for voicing their frustration at what they see as a corrupt election.
Now, as you might imagine, we're going to be all over this story again today, but I want you to look at some of these people. These are thousands of them. They filled the cemetery in Tehran today. It's the grave site of Neda, young woman shot dead in the street at the height of the protest movement last month.
The government told them not to do it again. And they did it anyway. They came out, so did the troops, the riot police, the tear gas. Even the candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi showed up. But the crowd started to get out of hand and he had to leave.
So, here is what we want to do. We watch these and we listen to some of these pictures, I want to bring in Reza Sayah. He is running CNN's Iran desk once again today.
Give us a sense of how would you describe what happened today on the streets of Tehran. REZA SAYAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, today told you that despite seven weeks of fierce crackdown by Iran's leadership, this opposition movement still has plenty of momentum and is not going away.
Keep in mind, the opposition leaders went out to the leadership of Iran and said, look, let us do this. Let us commemorate this day. We are not going to make any noise. We are just going to read the Koran and pray in silence. The government said, no, no more gatherings linked to the election. But they came out anyway. Not only did supporters come out. The leaders came out, Mir Hossein Mousavi, Mehdi Karrubi, defiant and energized...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: History would show us that whenever a totalitarian regime tries to thwart or stop a public display of emotion, as we have been seeing in Iran, it backfires on them. In fact, you could argue, given the news that I just shared with our viewers that they have now found this jail where there are reports that people are being beaten and tortured and killed, that would incense the public even more and make them want to come out now and protest.
SAYAH: And that's -- that appears to be what we're seeing again.
The jailhouse you are talking about is Kahrizak jailhouse in the southern portion of Tehran. This is a notorious prison. There was a lot of -- first of all, they don't tell anyone where they take these detainees. They disappear.
SANCHEZ: Wow.
SAYAH: And their explanation is if it has to do with national security, we don't have to explain anything.
So, there was a lot of talk that they were at Kahrizak and perhaps...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Taking protesters, people who just disagreed with the government?
SAYAH: Detainees.
SANCHEZ: These are not murderers; these are not rapists?
SAYAH: No. Well, first of all, we don't know who they are. We don't know who they are. These are detainees in the protests that were taken in.
SANCHEZ: Right.
SAYAH: Now, under tremendous pressure from the opposition, what does the supreme leader do? He says, let's shut down Kahrizak because it is not up to standards. He didn't say we have violated any kind of laws, we have denied them their rights. They said, let's shut it down. And over the past few days, a number of people -- according to the government, 140 people released. And as they are coming out, they are coming out with horror stories of how they were treated inside, according to reformist Web sites, stories of starvation. Somebody said they were hanging upside down for hours.
Perhaps the most awful thing that I heard was some detainees according, to a reformist Web sites, being forced to lick a toilet. And then of course we have reports of people being killed in prison. And that what is angering this opposition movement.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Yes. It sounds Pinochetish. It is the kind of thing that we find out later about certain leaders, the Hitlers, the Pinochets, people like that. And then we say, was that even possible? It is so dehumanizing.
SAYAH: And that's why a lot of people, a lot of observers were curious about today. Would Iran's leadership pull back on the security forces? Would they let them protest? They didn't. They came back with again with the clubs and the batons.
SANCHEZ: I will tell you, this is the kind of thing that just seems uncontrollable. And it's kind of coming to a boil in some way.
SAYAH: Yes.
SANCHEZ: And we are so glad, Reza, that we have you watching it for us. We appreciate it.
SAYAH: We have a lot of help at the Iran desk.
SANCHEZ: That's great.
SAYAH: I mean, a lot of people watching everything that's coming in.
SANCHEZ: You guys are doing a fantastic job. We will see you again, hopefully tomorrow.
All right, let's talk health care or maybe health scare. Think about how I am playing with those two words. They rhyme and they also make some political points, health scare in particular. But are they true, like saying that this new plan or this new proposal for health care is going to make you pay for other people's abortions? Is that true?
And, then, later, the effect on President Obama from the Cambridge comments that he made. Donna Brazile is going to join us to talk about this.
Also, remember, that at 4:00, rather than just going off the air, we are just switching over to CNN.com/live. And, there, you can join me. And we will continue the conversation, the after-show.
By the way, I am coming back in two minutes. So stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: I welcome you back.
It's going to happen. Before we know it, our elected members of Congress will cast votes on legislation to change our system of health care. You think it is a heated debate now? Let me assure you, we ain't seen nothing yet. Just wait until those votes approach.
In the meantime, I want you to keep a close eye on the commercials from both sides. They are going to be running all over the place. In fact, some already are. And they are produced by folks who want to change the way that you think about this, not necessarily always dealing in truth, but certainly with effective appeals to your emotions.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, AD)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They won't pay for my surgery. What are we going to do?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But, honey, you can't live this way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And to think that Planned Parenthood is included in the government-run health care plan and spend tax dollars on abortions. They won't pay for my surgery, but we are forced to pay for abortions.
NARRATOR: Our greatest generation denied care, our future generation denied life.
Call your senator. Stop the government takeover of health care.
Family Research Council Action is responsible...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All right, is that fair? The group that is running this spot wants you to think seniors are going to be denied life- saving surgery, even as they pay for other people's abortions. Really? Is that language or anything like the language that you saw on the commercial in the actual bills?
We have seen, after looking into it, nope, not at all. Here is another one. This one is paid for by the Republican National Committee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, AD)
NARRATOR: Reforma. The side effects include bureaucratic waste and delay. Not recommended if you like your own doctor, want to keep your own doctor, or want to avoid the government prescribing your medical treatments. Not recommended for people who actually need medical care.
The government can deny your health care based on patient age. Cost to taxpayers may very and is more than you can possibly imagine. You should not support President Obama's Reforma if you are worried about the $1.6 trillion cost or the $219 billion deficit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All right, I know it goes really fast and it has got a lot of numbers a lot of stuff that is being thrown at you. But we have watched it many, many times back and forth. And, by our count, there are as many as eight possible distortions in that 30-second spot.
And then there is this. This is from the president himself. This is from something he said at last week's town hall meeting. I want you to watch it. And then I want to tell you something about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is something we can do. It is going to be paid for. It is not going to add to the deficit. It will in fact control the deficit over the long term.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Going to be paid for, Mr. President? Going to be paid for? What, it's going to be paid for by itself, without adding to the deficit one penny?
That's not what the budget folks are saying about this. So, as you can see, there is a lot of information out there, and in many cases a lot of misinformation.
Dueling senators coming your way on the opposite side of the aisle, they are going to try answering some of the questions from real people, right here, right now.
Stay with us. There is our group of real Americans who deal with this every day. And they each bring their own distinctive issues, problems and questions.
Stay with us. This is going to get good.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR, NEWSROOM: It is always good when you see the plus sign in front of those numbers. Isn't it?
We are trying to separate fact from fiction for you, though, in this health care debate. This is important for all of us as Americans. Look, and we have already shown you, I think you get it, that on both sides of the aisle, I mean, from Democrats and from Republicans, you are, from time to time, going to get no shortage of fiction. So, to help us cut through some of this, from Washington, Senator John Barrasso. He is a Republican from Wyoming. Who we have had on the show many times and we like him. Also, Democrat Sherrod Brown, is the junior senator from Ohio. He's going to be joining us in just a bit. I expect that we will like him as well, by the way.
Then, here in Atlanta, we have a panel of people just like you, people that have questions about what's going on in this country. What's this health care plan going to be really like, when they're all done figuring it out?
I want to start with Charity Jordan. Take a look at her right there.
Hi, Charity. Nice smile.
She's a recent graduate of Georgia State University. She currently works for a nonprofit venture. Here is her problem. She says, look, the health care plan that's available to me where I work, it is not even worth joining, financially. She is going to take us through that.
Mike Sullivan is just next to her. He is a majority owner of Southeast Ceiling Incorporated. What he wants you to know is that, the current health care system makes it a real burden for guys like him, small business owners, to try and cover their employees.
I have no idea where he is looking. The camera is right there. There you go. Look at the camera in front of you.
Somebody - there! Thanks, Robert.
Also, Peggy Duncan is a personal productivity expert. There she is. She is paying a $5,000 deductable because of a pre-existing condition. There we go with that pre-existing condition that really gets many Americans.
There we have the setup. Now, let's bring in our senators. First, Senator John Barrasso.
You there, sir?
SEN. JOHN BARRASSO, (R) WYOMING: I am, Rick. Thanks for having me.
SANCHEZ: Always good to see you. Let's talk first about these ads. Because we are going to devote about a half hour to this entire conversation, so we have plenty of time. This ad that continues to suggest, erroneously, mind you, that this proposal is essentially going to let old people die off or kill them, that's not fair, is it?
BARRASSO: Well, what you want to see - or really what the next bill comes out, the Health bill, the bill from the Health Committee, two weeks ago they passed it. Today, all the Republicans wrote to Senator Dodd and said, "Where is the bill? And what's the cost of it?" SANCHEZ: OK, but Senator, hold on.
(CROSS TALK)
But hold on. Senator, hold on. Going back to my question. You can't say that just because we don't know what the details are, we are going to make up some details and put them in a commercial scaring old people into thinking they are all going to die if they do this bill? That's not right, is it?
BARRASSO: That's not right at all, but it's the Health Committee bill where Barbara Mikulski's amendment, which has government and taxpayers paying for abortions. It is in that bill. It is there in black and white, the amendment passed but yet the bill hasn't been finalized in the sense of being printed. So, there are a number of different bills with different things in each of them.
SANCHEZ: Senator Brown, let me bring you into this. Senator Brown of Ohio, you there, sir?
SEN. SHERROD BROWN, (D) OHIO: You want me address the same question?
SANCHEZ: No, no, I got a different question for you. I have a different bone to pick with you, as they say.
Why does the president continue to say that this proposal is going to pay for itself when you and I both know this thing is not going to pay for itself? This thing is going to cost us. Of course, it is.
BROWN: Well, I don't think the president is quite saying it pays for itself. The president says over time, there -well, let me start with this.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
BROWN: Back about three weeks ago, former Treasury Secretary O'Neill, secretary of the Treasury under Bush said that there is $1 trillion in our health care system, our of some $5 trillion, that we are wasting, that we are overspending. Most of it is not fraud. Most of it is just overspending, services that aren't necessary, over- testing, all of that. And over time, we are going to be able to - because of this bill - in part, we are going to be able to wring a lot of that cost out of the system.
Of course, it is going to cost more money initially. That is what we are budgeting for. When the president says, paying for itself, he also included $600 billion in the budget. He is not saying the entire bill pays for itself.
SANCHEZ: Just to be fair, now, and so the American people know, this will affect the deficit. It will affect the deficit, right?
BROWN: Well, it affects the deficit except for that first $600 million, which we built into the budget that we passed. SANCHEZ: OK.
BROWN: The rest, we will find a way to pay for it. You know, I hear this talk of the deficit. These are the same people who are complaining about the deficit voted almost unanimously for a tax cut that put is $100s of billions in debt, and voted for a war in 2002 that put us trillions of dollars into debt. They didn't care so much about the budget deficit.
But now, when it comes time to ensure people who aren't insured, to help those people who are underinsured, and to provide consumer protections for people who have insurance, now they are talking about deficits.
SANCHEZ: How about that, Senator Barrasso, I mean, he is - Senator Brown just laid out the charge, essentially, that Republican side wasn't real interested in deficits when George Bush was in office, but now all of a sudden, they are all deficit hawks when Obama is in office.
BARRASSO: A couple of things. One, I wasn't in the Senate when those votes were cast. But if you take a look at the total debt buildup from George Washington to the end of George W. Bush, add it all up, Obama has now exceeded all of those numbers. His budget is doubles the national debt ...
SANCHEZ: Is that true?
(CROSS TALK)
BARRASSO: ...in five years. It triples it in 10 years. It is unsustainable.
SANCHEZ: Is that true, Senator Brown?
BARRASSO: It is the number one thing on American's minds, it's the economy, it's the debt, it is jobs, it is the deficit.
SANCHEZ: Is that true, Senator Brown?
BROWN: It is only true if you ignore the fact that - it was eight years of - I don't want to talk about George Bush, but if it was eight years of George Bush that got us into this financial crisis where, yes, the Treasury Secretary Paulson, George Bush's Treasury secretary, and Treasury Secretary Geithner had to do all this bailout for the banks, that we had no choice, if you want to count that, yeah, he has run up the deficit. That is not really quite fair.
SANCHEZ: I want to leave it at that.
When we come back, real Americans, asking real questions of both of you about their particular situation. Interestingly enough, we have chosen people who share a situation with many other Americans. Things like small business administrator who simply can't afford to pick up the debt of having to pay everybody else's insurance, and vice versa. You will have this conversation with you, all six of us, when we come back. Stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back.
I want to start with you, Mike. This is Mike Sullivan. He's the fellow right over there in the middle.
Mr. Sullivan, thank you so much for being with us. You can look at the camera when I ask you this, though. You are a small business owner. What you want to say to these two senators, who are listening to you now, is what? Describe for us what your plight is in trying to get by under the current system. Go ahead.
MIKE SULLIVAN, SMALL BUSINESS OWNER: First of all, the present system that we have is broken, and it has been broken for 20 years. For the past 10 years, the cost of our health insurance at our small company, which employs 25 people, has increased an average of 20 percent a year.
Now, the reason it is broken is because I have several friends that are doctors, cardiologists, rheumatologists, internists. In the same 10-year period, their income has gone down. Now I know hospitals are not the cause of this problem. They are barely making it or getting by with 5 or 8 percent of profits. That leaves three other folks involved in this process; it involves the pharmaceutical companies, the people that I pay to cover my health insurance, the 1000s of dollars, and the lawyers that are chasing ambulances.
Now, in Washington.
SANCHEZ: Well, I want to stop you there, because I think what you have just done is leveled a charge. You are paying more and the doctors aren't making more, and nobody else seems to be making more, then the only people who might be enriching themselves in all of this are the pharmaceuticals, and the health care, HMOs, et cetera.
Either one of you senators, before we go to break, can you tackle this? I hear that same opinion from a lot of Americans. And these are the same people that in many cases pay you guys for your campaigns. Is that a problem?
BARRASSO: Well, Rick, Mike also said, junk lawsuits. He also said the lawyers were getting rich off of this system.
SANCHEZ: All right.
BARRASSO: Where there is a lot of unnecessary tests that are ordered that don't help somebody get well, cost a lot of money to patients, but is doctors covering themselves to avoid getting sued. Or try to protect themselves if they do get sued.
I think that, Mike, I think that's what you said as well. Is that right?
SANCHEZ: Yes, Ok, that's fair. Let me give Senator Sherrod Brown a chance on this. OK, let's suppose the lawyers are a little greedy in the way they litigate, and try and take doctors to the cleaners.
What about these big CEOs who run these pharmaceutical firms? And also, run some of these health care provider systems? Are they getting more than their share in all of this? And are we getting screwed in the end?
BROWN: Of course, they are. I was in the Congress and the House when the Medicare bill was passed, the Medicare prescription drug bill three or four years ago. It was a bill written by the drug companies and by the insurance companies, for the drug companies, and the insurance companies.
This bill now is different. What we hope we can do in this bill is provide help for small businesses when there are only 25 employees. If he has one or two employees that need Remicade (ph) or one of these really - Recepta (ph) one of these $20,000 or $30,000 or $50,000 a year biologic drugs, it is going to blow his health insurance premiums through the roofs. That's why we are offering to businesses like his, to go into the exchange, to throw in with a much larger business pool.
SANCHEZ: So, you are saying - I have to stop you, because my producer is telling me I have to hit a break. Then all of us are going to be coming back. So, this conversation is going to continue.
Did you hear that, Mr. Sullivan? They are going to essentially be telling you that under the present system, some of the burden will be alleviated from you. You buy that, by the way, yes or no?
SULLIVAN: No.
SANCHEZ: No. We will be right back. Stay with us. We will continue this conversation.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: All right. You guys, all of you here, my three guests over here, you guys have heard this argument, right?
SULLIVAN: That's correct.
SANCHEZ: That it is socialized medicine. And that the government is unable, completely unable, to do anything right. So they are not going to be able to do a health care plan, at least not do it well.
Senators, I am sure have made that same argument, in fact, you guys make that argument on the floor from time to time.
Listen to what happens on "The Daily Show" when the host takes on Bill Crystal with this same argument. This is interesting. I want to talk about it on the way out. Let's all watch it together.
One of the ways we make it up since they are risking their lives, we give them first-time health care. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM KRISTOL, "THE WEEKLY STANDARD": So, one of the ways we make it up to soldiers, since they are risking their live, we give them first class health care. The rest of us can go it and buy insurance.
JON STEWART, THE DAILY SHOW: So you just said that the public -
KRISTOL: as 90 percent of us have
STEWART: I just want to get this on record. Bill Kristol just said --
(CROSS TALK)
STEWART: --that the government can run a first class health care system and that a government-run health care system is better than the private health care system?
KRISTOL: I don't think -- I don't know if it is better.
STEWART: Well, you just said it was better.
KRISTOL: I don't know if it is better.
STEWART: Well, you said it was better. You said it is the best.
KRISTOL: The military needs --.
STEWART: It's a little more expensive, but it's better.
KRISTOL: The military needs an expensive health care --
(CROSS TALK)
STEWART: So, the government. I just want to get this down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Charity, if the government can run a good health care system for soldiers, and for these two senators, by the way, that we are talking to now -- and for anybody else that works for the government, do you think they can run a good health care system for us?
CHARITY JORDAN, RECENT COLLEGE GRADUATE: I absolutely think they can run a great health care system. My issue has been, we have talked, since we started this thing, we have talked about money. We didn't say anything about health care and the people who need health care coverage, who are sick. Whether they are military personnel or not, or they work for a small business. They can't come into work if they are sick. I can't get health care if when I get to the doctor and they say, well, where is your insurance card? But my small business owner didn't give me one.
SANCHEZ: Mike, you want to jump in?
SULLIVAN: Yes. If you want to see how good health care is for the soldiers and ex soldiers, and retired. Go over to Claremont (ph) Road and Decatur, to the VA hospital, and watch what's going on over there.
SANCHEZ: How about you, Peggy, do you think the government can run an effective health care system? Or are the incapable of running anything at all?
PEGGY DUNCAN, HAS PRE-EXISTING CONDITION: I think if the government can take a letter from my house to California in three days for 44 cents, I think they can run an efficient, effective health care system. But they need to work on it because we all know that there are a lot of inefficiencies, a lot of waste in government. I totally agree that if we address the inefficiencies, we can do this.
SANCHEZ: Senator Barrasso, what do you make of this argument?
BARRASSO: Well, number one, for Charity, I am concerned for her, because the programs that are going to be actually unfortunately weighted against young people, because they are going to be paying much more for insurance, with the way that these bills say that you can't charge a young person any less than half of what you can charge somebody that is much older.
So, for people in Wyoming, in my state, that are paying $66 a month, on a kind of a bare bones policy, that's going to go to $300 and some. I just got back from Kuwait, seeing our soldiers there. I have been to the hospitals overseas in the war zone. But the VA system, the way it worked when I was in medical school, is not what I would consider the program for all Americans.
SANCHEZ: So you don't think the government is capable?
BARRASSO: They do a terrible job with the Indian health care ...(INAUDIBLE)
(CROSS TALK)
SANCHEZ: Senator Brown, I'll leave you.
BARRASSO: ...the government runs it completely and they are not doing a good job, at all and our people are suffering.
SANCHEZ: OK, 10 seconds left for you Senator Brown. Do you think the government is able to do this?
BROWN: Of course it can. Look at Medicare. Medicare serves the American people really well. People are happy with Medicare. There are some gaps in coverage, in large part, because of the privatization attempts five years ago. The VA medical system is strong. The community-based outreach clinics matter to people. I just don't agree that the VA system doesn't work well.
SANCHEZ: All right. We have to leave it there. Listen, my thanks to both of you. It is a great conversation. We will continue to do more of this, answer people's questions, bring in regular people like the rest of us. Not that senators aren't regular people, because I think both of you are and I've really enjoyed it. It has been a delight to have you both on.
You are chuckling in the background, both of you. Thanks, again.
By the way, I'm going to keep these three guys over here and we'll continue on cnn.com/live at 4:00 o'clock, when the show ends. We are going to continue the conversation. And all of you on Twitter, Facebook, Myspace, and through e-mail, can join us. And give us your take on this, as well.
By the way, stay with us. We are going to be talking about whether the president of the United States really stepped in it when he made the comment over the Cambridge case. We're also going to be asking whether some very strong-minded critics of his are now actually helping him with what they're saying about him. What are they saying? If you haven't heard, you will soon. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Most of you are telling us now, through social media, that you really appreciate the fact that we're opening this conversation up and talking about this potential health care proposal.
There's something else. I want to postulate something for you now. The people who are criticizing the president, those, for example, who are saying that he is a racist, are they criticizing and hurting the president personally, but politically, they may be doing him a favor. Think about that. Politically, they may be doing him a favor.
I'm going to pose that question to Donna Brazile, who's standing by right now. She's been looking at this situation in Cambridge, like all of us have recently, and she joins me to talk about that when we come back from the break. Stay there, this is going to get good.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: She is a CNN contributor. She's also a Democratic strategist, favorite gal for a lot of folks around here. Good enough to join us now. There is Donna Brazile.
Donna, thanks for being with us.
DONNA BRAZILE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Good afternoon, Rick. Good to hear your voice and see your face again.
SANCHEZ: Listen, there's a police officer in Boston who is calling Professor Gates a jungle monkey. There's a host on TV who says the president of the united states is a racist. And then you have this radio host who we've all heard of, in the past, saying that the president is an angry Negro. Given the fact that I think even the president would admit he probably shouldn't have used the word "stupidly". But he did. Are some of these folks, by piling on, doing the president a favor politically?
BRAZILE: I don't believe that anyone wants to score political points over the controversy involving Professor Gates and Sergeant Crowley. This is a moment for people to basically take a step back, for cooler heads to prevail, to turn down the heat and the rhetoric, and to begin to sit, listen, and learn. That's how you make progress. That's how you make change in this country.
For over 200 years, Rick, we have seen race played out in this country. We had a civil war and a civil rights movement. But we also turned the page with a new chapter with the election of Barack Obama. This is a moment for us to continue to make progress and to continue to build or rebuild trust between the minority communities and the police department. We have so much to do as a country, there's no place for wedge politics, like race, to be invoked at this time.
SANCHEZ: Because it's a conversation ender, because once you call someone a racist, the conversation has ended, and both camps go to their corners. Correct?
BRAZILE: Absolutely. But also it misses is point because we often cannot get to, you know, finding out what we all agree with. You know, I'll never forget during the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, there were some who called former President George W. Bush a racist. And I disagreed. I disagreed because I said, look, the policies and the practices of the not just the federal government, the state and local government, we could all criticize, but to call the president out I thought was wrong, morally wrong.
And I wrote a column in "The Washington Post" that said I want to work with this president to, you know, rebuild my city, rebuild my hometown, because that was the important thing to consider.
SANCHEZ: But I'm glad you mentioned that, because let's stick with New Orleans, if we can. I think it's somewhat analogous to this. White Americans, in large measure, looked at the situation with Katrina, in New Orleans and saw it as a bureaucratic screw-up? African-Americans and Hispanics looked at the very same situation and saw it as some kind of racist act. Same situation, two different kinds of people looking at the same thing, and coming out with two different conclusions. How is that possible?
BRAZILE: Because we all come to the table with our own experiences and biases and prejudices. Sometimes they're true and sometimes not. But you know the good thing about President Obama, and one thing I want to mention, is he admitted to making the mistake and possibly aggravating the situation. And today, cooler heads would hopefully -- you know, something cool to drink will allow us to get past just this incident, but onto a new chapter we all want to have in this country.
SANCHEZ: Donna Brazile, good enough to join us and talk about this.
I should let you know as we near the end of the show we'll be throwing things over to Wolf Blitzer, who's going to be taking over from THE SITUATION ROOM.
In the meantime, here's what we're going to do. We're going to switch over now to cnn.com/live, where we'll continue the conversation with Donna Brazile, as well as three of our guests that are good enough to share their situation, talking about health care with them, the reality of how it affects them. Here now, though, is Wolf Blitzer.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Rick, thanks very much.
