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Health Care Reform Debated In Town Halls Across The Country
Aired August 15, 2009 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ALI VELSHI, CNN GUEST ANCHOR: Hello, everybody. I am Ali Velshi from the Iowa State Fair, in Des Moines, Iowa. This is town hall raw. August is make or break month for health care for President Obama's efforts to reform health care.
For the next hour we will bring you the best of those town halls that have been happening all week. The president, members of Congress going back to their districts and hearing from their constituents about health care.
Now, some of those meetings were rockets but they got the questions on Medicare, on abortion, on the so called death panels, we are going to straighten that out for you as well.
But there was yelling. There was booing. There was applause. Listen to some of it for yourself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One day god is going to stand before you and he is going to judge you and the rest of your damn cronies up on the hill! And then you'll get your just desert.
(APPLAUSE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is no less than liberty versus tyranny, good versus evil, and there is no middle ground with whom you choose to stand.
SEN CLAIRE MCCASKILL, (D) MISSOURI: I don't understand this rudeness. What is this? I don't get it? I honestly don't get it? Do you all think you are persuading people when you shout out like that?
(SHOUTS)
Beg your pardon? You don't trust me?
CROWD: No!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: President Obama is about to hold his third town hall meeting in a week in just a few hours. We'll be bringing that to you.
He was in Montana yesterday, and while he was there he heard from an impassioned insurance salesman about health care reform. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, I make a living selling individual health insurance.
(LAUGHTER)
Obviously, I have paid very close attention to this insurance debate. As you know, the health insurance companies are in favor of health care reform and have a number of very good proposals before Congress to work with government to provide insurance for the uninsured and cover individuals with preexisting conditions.
Why is it that you've changed your strategy from talking about health care reform to health insurance reform and decided to vilify the insurance companies?
(APPLAUSE)
BARACK OBAMA, (D) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: OK, that is a fair question. That's a fair question.
First of all, you are absolutely right that the insurance companies in some cases have been constructive. So I will give you a particular example. Aetna has been trying to work with us in dealing with some of the preexisting condition stuff. And that's absolutely true. And there are other come companies who have done the same.
Now I want to just be honest with you, and I think Max will testify, that in some cases what we have seen is also funding in opposition by some other insurance companies to any kind of reform proposals.
So, my intent is not to vilify insurance companies. If I was vilifying them, what we would be doing would be to say that private insurance has no place in the health care market, and some people believe that. I don't believe that.
What I said is let's work with the existing system. We've got private insurers out there. But what we do have to make sure of is that certain practices that are very tough on people, that those practices change.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: That was the president in Montana. He is working hard to get control of the health care message again after a week that started off a lot louder than it ended.
Now the president is going to be in Colorado today. He's holding another town hall. This is his third one this week. It is going to be sometime in the 6:00 eastern time hour. We're going to be bringing it to you live.
But let's talk about the town halls that have happened so far this week.
All right, let's go back to Maryland. We started seeing tempers flying earlier this week. Let's go to Maryland where Senator Ben Cardin was asked about the constitution and health care reform. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would like you to address how the public option decreases or increases our choices in health care? I am happy with my health insurance, but I know people that have none. How does that help?
SEN. CARDIN, (D) MARYLAND: This is a very important question. So, let me try to answer this.
Remember, the public insurance option is one of the issues that is being very much negotiated and debated in Washington. There is no specific proposal on a public option at this point.
The reason for a public option, quite frankly, is to make sure there is an affordable insurance option to those who have no health insurance today that will be required to have health insurance under this bill. That's the purpose, that there be a market.
Historically private insurance scum pans have avoided certain markets. They have done that. We want to make sure there are markets available.
In 1965, they were not writing a lot of insurance for elderly. We passed Medicare, a public option, and it's worked fairly well over the years to have a public option for those who have been on it.
(SHOUTING)
CARDIN: The second reason -- the second reason, for a public option is to keep the costs down, to keep the costs down. We want to have -- we want to make sure that there is an affordable option for all the people that are now going to be required to get health insurance.
Now, whether it will be a fall back that only can be -- only can be accessed for those who didn't have private insurance or whether it's going to be a co-op, that is not clear yet. That is being negotiated.
But I can tell you our objective is to make sure those that are in private insurance and have private insurance stay in their private insurance plans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: Through the course of the hour we'll be giving you more samples of what happened through the course of week.
Let me tell you, people are worried about health care reform, they're thinking health care reform. But it's not one bill. There are several bills in the House and in the Senate and other proposals.
Our CNN iReporters are going online and reading what's actually out there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know a lot of people are heated about this. I know a lot of people are misinformed and are taking their positive opinion of Obama or negative opinion of Obama and superimposing it on to the health care reform debate.
But health care reform is a serious issue and so it needs serious people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: All right. This is "Town Hall Raw." I am Ali Velshi. I'm at the Iowa State Fair in Des Moines, Iowa. And while people are out here having a fantastic time and they have been at some of the other state fairs that I've been at this week, the bottom line is health care is on everybody's mind right now just like the economy is.
So that's why August is make-or-break month for health care, and that's why we at CNN are going to be bringing to you all month, making sure you understand exactly what is going on.
We are also taking you this week to those Congressional town halls and the town halls that the president held to try and hear from people what their concerned about, what their worries are about health care.
And one key issue in the health care debate is abortion. Now, Pennsylvania Republican turned Democrat Senator Arlen Specter faced a question about abortion at a town hall he held earlier this week in Pennsylvania.
Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I did not want to pay on a health care plan that includes the right for a woman to kill her unborn baby. Is it true that this plan is in the health care bill?
(APPLAUSE)
SEN. ARLEN SPECTER, (D) PENNSYLVANIA: Her question is, will there be payments for abortions in the health care bill? Well, first of all, we don't have a bill in the Senate as I said.
And what we are -- what we are looking toward is to have a -- to have both options, that if you want to have a health care plan which does not have payment for abortions, you can have that one where you will not be charged for somebody who has an abortion. Now if you want a different health care plan, an option where you can have payment for abortion and you pay for it because there will be a little bigger premium, you have the choice of being in one plan or the other.
So nobody, nobody has to be in a plan to pay for somebody else's abortion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: Not just Democrats getting pounded. Republicans are getting pounded as well. Senator Chuck Grassley is a member of a bipartisan Senate committee that is working on the health care proposal. Here is sound from his town hall meeting on "Town Hall Raw."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you and Senator Baucus for being true statesmen, because you know that back to the constitutional conventions, this government is run on compromise. And you two have done that. So thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And thanks for doing the compromise with Senator Baucus. There are so many different philosophies and idea in America. I don't think any, any plan that comes out, will be acceptable to one part of the population or another to a very significant degree.
And it's jealousy when somebody has something that you can't have, it bothers you. So I would like to suggest that there be one benefit plan for every American in this system. And then people who want to --
(BOOS)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's your question?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then people who want to have other benefits besides that, they can do something like the Medicare supplemental insurance plans. So I would look to ask your opinion on that.
(BOOS)
SEN. CHUCK GRASSLEY, (R) IOWA: Both, both senator -- well I shouldn't say, I should never speak for Senator Baucus. I feel in this area that maybe I can say that he and I are working towards something that is going to give Americans more choice than what you are suggestion would be.
Now, will we be able to -- we're working and talking, and I don't know that there will be a product or not. But we are working towards a direction of having people to have choice.
(END VIDEO CLIP) VELSHI: The town hall held by Senator Chuck Grassley. Now just because it's the weekend, none of this is stopping. The president, as we said, is holding a town hall meeting, his third this week in Colorado in the 6:00 hour.
And right now there's a health care rally going on live in Atlanta. Don Lemon is there, and he has got the story. Hi, Don.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, Ali. This is billed as the largest health care town hall so far. It's being held right here in Centennial Olympic park right in downtown Atlanta.
And you can see here, it's really hundreds of people, maybe thousand. I'm not very good at counting. But you can take a look at the crowd and see all the folks who are showing up. Dick Armey, the former majority leader is standing there talking.
Also there have been people who have been going to the town halls, some of the pp. that you have seen on television, YouTube, what have you, have been voicing their concerns to congressmen and also the president. They have been speaking here as well.
Lots of signs here, it says "Freedom, not tyranny." There is a guy behind me wearing an NRA hat. Someone saying over here, "No Obama-care."
And joining me quickly here is the state secretary --
HANDEL: Secretary of state Karen Handel.
LEMON: Secretary of State Karen Handel. I know your name. I have to get your title right. Why are you here? Why do you think these folks are all out here?
KAREN HANDEL, (R) GEORGIA SECRETARY OF STATE: These are individuals speaking out about the health care plan moving through Washington. People, we want health care reform, but we want a market- driven health care reform that protects the patient-doctor relationship.
LEMON: We will talk more with the secretary of state in just a little bit here on CNN and during my show that's coming up at 5:00, Ali.
But again, a lot of people are out here. They are very adamant about what they want. They want health care reform, but they want to make sure, they say, that it is done right and that it is not government-controlled. That's their words -- Ali?
VELSHI: Don, thanks. We'll check in with you again. That's the same sentiment I have been getting in some places along our stops.
We've been traveling for a week. We started in Atlanta, ending in Des Moines, traveling more than 1,000 miles along the way through Tennessee, Kentucky, southern Illinois, Missouri, Kansas, and now into Iowa. Here is a bit of the conversation that I had with a small group of people that we had gathered for dinner together in Kansas. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it is too fast. I think time needs to be taken out to educate everyone, as many people in America. I think there needs to be a forum held to educate people as far as what this whole thing is about.
VELSHI: Isn't that what the town halls were supposed to be?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Supposed to.
VELSHI: What was your general impression about how that went down?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the fundamental problems to the town halls they were highly politicized. There was an agenda. Whether you're a Democrat or Republican, Libertarian, whatever your affiliation you want to claim, there was a polarization to those town halls.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was marketing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was, it was blatantly so. And there was just no, in my estimation, there was a lack of value because it wasn't informative. It was politicized. It was polarized.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because it was so much marketing, or what appeared to be marketing, made people tune it out. And then we still leave ourselves unknowledgeable about what's really happening.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: That was a fascinating conversation we had. And there is a longer version of it on CNNmoney.com. Click on video. It's probably worth listening to the whole thing to get a sense of how some Americans are feeling.
August is make-or-break month for health care in America, and that's why we are bringing you "Town Hall Raw" today to give you a real feel for what's going on. We're putting in focus for you.
If you want to get more information on health care, we have a place for that on CNN.com/healthcare all week. Check it out.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: OK. We are back on CNN with "Town Hall Raw." What we're doing is bringing to you what many people have taken to their congressman and to the president over the course of the last week in those town hall meetings.
There have been several of them across the country, including two by the president himself, another one coming up in the 6:00 eastern hour.
Now on Tuesday, the president was in New Hampshire. While most people in the country are disagreeing about how health care reform should be handled, some people don't know why we need to reform health care in the first place. And the president got that very question from a young woman.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As I was walking in, I saw a lot of signs outside saying mean things about reforming health care.
How do kids know what is true? And why do people want a new system that can, that help more of us?
OBAMA: Well, I have seen some of those signs.
(LAUGHTER)
Let me just be specific about some things that I have been hearing lately that we just need to dispose of here.
The rumor that has been circulating a lot lately is this idea that somehow the House of Representatives voted for "death panels" that will basically pull the plug on grandma because we have decided that we don't -- it's too expensive to let her live anymore. And there are some variations on this theme.
It turns out that I guess this arose out of a provision in one of the House bills that allowed Medicare to reimburse people for consultations about end of life care, setting up living wills, the availability of hospice, et cetera.
So the intention of the members of Congress was to give people more information so that they could handle issues of end-of-life care when they're ready, on their own terms. It wasn't forcing anybody to do anything. This is I guess where the rumor came from.
The irony is that actually one of the chief sponsors of this bill originally was a Republican, then House member now Senator named Johnny Isakson from Georgia, who very sensibly thought this is something that would expand people's options. And somehow it has gotten spun into this idea of "death panels."
I am not in favor of that. So just -- I want to -- I want to clear the air here.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: You heard the president refer to Senator Johnny Isakson of Georgia. Well, Senator Isakson is pushing back on the president's comments. Our truth seeker in chief, Josh Levs is here, with a CNN truth squad check into the so-called "death panels" -- Josh?
JOSH LEVS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Hey there, Ali. I love the title. Thanks for that.
I will tell you the basics on this. There were never going to be death panels. It was never going to happen.
Let me tell you the basics here. This is important. First of all, Senator Isakson is saying the idea that was in the legislation was not his idea. He very quickly tried to distance himself from that.
This is what was in the legislation. Let's go to this graphic. It's very simple here when you really look at it. The House bill did say that it would require Medicare to cover these consultations about advanced care.
But what you see on the next screen here is that even those consultations were not required. So very simply the truth squad looked at this gave it a verdict right there -- false. That was not in there. No one was going to ask the government if someone could live or die.
However, I will tell you that now we are even hearing from other lawmaker that even that thing about consultations is going to be dropped eventually. So we are not expected to have -- be having this debate by the time some bill makes it through each house and then eventually over to the president.
So we should not, as a nation, have any worries, Ali, about anything resembling death panels in any version of health care legislation. Back to you.
VELSHI: Josh, we love your -- your truth squad stuff here on CNN. I don't know if you do that when you are out with friend, because I think it could be a little tough when your friend are talking to you and you bring a truth squad on them.
LEVS: They give me a hard time. They do.
VELSHI: No kidding. But you'll keep us honest on health care. Josh Levs, thank you.
Different health care plans in different countries around the world have been getting a lot of attention. Is a Canadian-style health care system the right thing for us? Well one cancer survivor and one senator says "no way."
We are checking into all of this, this week, today, this hour, with our CNN "Town Hall Raw." Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: Welcome back to "Town Hall Raw" on CNN. I'm Ali Velshi. We're in Des Moines, Iowa at the Iowa state fair.
It's kind of ironic. Over my right shoulder you see cigarettes and over my left shoulder you see all sorts of fried food. Maybe not the most interesting place to have a conversation on health care, but it is on everybody's mind.
And that's why we are bringing it to you. And we're bringing you some of the outbursts and outrage and conversation that went on at town hall meetings across the country this week held by members of Congress and the president.
The president is having another one. It will be his third one this week. And it's going to be in Colorado in the 6:00 p.m. eastern hour, about 3.5 hours from now. We of course will bring that to you live.
You will also hear in this half-hour about Canadian-style health care. You are going to hear about a possible doctor and nurse shortage. And we'll look into the number of uninsured people in this country.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does Congress intend to pass health care reform, and if so, how do you intend to pay for it, even if you have to have a tax increase. Do you intend to pass this health care reform, that's what I'm asking?
SEN. TOM COBURN, (R) OKLAHOMA: I would intend to pass a health care reform bill, but I would intend it be completely opposite of what is coming through right now, and one that will in fact save money rather than spend money, one that will cover 36 million instead of 13 million more people.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have had 13 or 14 years, three presidents and three Republican Congresses, Democratic Congresses, and other Congresses, and it hasn't been done. We send the brightest people we think to Congress to get it done and nothing has happened.
COBURN: Well, I wouldn't disagree with your statement. I would just tell you that if you want reform for reform's sake and it doesn't control the costs, what you will do is cut everybody's wages in the country, because any dollar that goes into health care is a dollar that doesn't go into your pocket.
And until we create a true competitive market with transparency and access for everybody, where you have some responsibility for what you spend on health care, where you have some responsibility, not somebody else.
(APPLAUSE)
When you are asking the doctor, are you sure I need this test? And if I need this test, is there a place I can get the test cheaper? Until you start helping us control the cost rather than say, oh, I have insurance. I will just do it.
See, that's our problem is there is a disconnect between the purchase of health care and the payment of health care, whether it's Medicare, Medicaid, or private insurance. And until that happens we're not going to control costs. And so what you might be thinking of reform is very much different than what I am thinking of reform.
My bill is laid out and has been laid out for six months. It's been the out there for everybody to see. It is scored. It actually saves us money, all of us money, and gives, covers, 36 million of the 47 million people who are not covered.
By the way, 11 million of the people who are not covered, today, are illegal immigrants.
All right. Right over here, yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I could -- if we, if my stepdad lived in Canada, he would be alive today. And until we are ready to talk about the fact that we couldn't get or didn't choose to get $1,000 permitted procedure, his cancer was not diagnosed for three years. (INAUDIBLE).
COBURN: Well, I would dispute you on the facts. The fact is 2 million Americans, every year, are alive and cured from cancer in this country because they don't have Canadian health care.
(APPLAUSE)
I would be happy to show you that we have a 30 percent better cure rate on almost every cancer than Canada does. And the reason is, as you may get diagnosed early, but you get -- you get an ability to get in line.
And the average breast cancer patient in Canada today waits six months before they're in treatment. That's six months.
Now, we don't want to get in the line. Access to care isn't getting in the line. And that's what you have. There is no question it costs less in Canada. But there is no question that millions of people come to this country so that they will have a life rather than lose a life.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: Interesting discussion. That was two-time cancer survivor and Republican Senator Tom Coburn at a town hall meeting that he held on Thursday.
Well we are going to be speaking to you a lot about some of the other things in health care. If you have questions about health care of your own, tune in at the 4:00 eastern hour, because we're going to be getting answers from members of Congress and experts who know about health care in the 4:00 hour.
And a reminder that you can always check in to these things. We have done a lot of reporting on this at CNN. We've gathered a lot of expertise. And you can go to CNN.com/healthcare for complete coverage of the health care reform discussion.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LONG: Good morning from the world headquarters of CNN here in Atlanta. I'm Melissa Long. We'll return to "Town Hall Raw" in just a few minutes.
But first, if you knew something would harm your health, would you avoid it, like smoking, eating high fat foods? Well, women need to look no further than your feet for serious health problems that could be lurking down the road.
Our Senior Medical Correspondent Elizabeth Cohen explains.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Nicole DeSilvas loves shoes. From Paris to Payless, she has picked up more than 50 pairs, mostly stilettos and high heels.
NICOLE DESILVAS, SHOE FANATIC: I like them because of the style, certainly not for the comfort.
COHEN: Nicole has been wearing heels since sixth grade, and over the years her choice of footwear caused her a number of problems.
DESILVAS: I have bad knees, broken my ankles a couple times, and foot pain 24/7. And I still wear them.
COHEN: Podiatrists say that's not unusual. Bad shoes lead to plenty of foot injuries, especially for women. Yet many never associate their shoes with their podiatric pain.
DR. KATHYA ZINSZER, TEMPLE SCHOOL OF PODIATRIC MEDICINE: Heel pain, bunion formation, and flare-ups.
COHEN: At Temple University School of Podiatric Medicine, researches are testing the effects of different shoe styles on feet. Equipped with a runway, pressure plates, and computer analysis, doctors use the data to better understand how different types of shoes put pressure on various points of the foot, including the balls, heels, and arches.
They're finding the higher the heel, the more stress on the toes and ankle joints, causing a multitude of long lasting health issues.
ZINSZER: The chronic parts of wearing heels for a long time that actually affect the muscles, the balance, the actual deformities, and the most, number one thing, is degenerative joint disease, also known as osteoarthritis.
COHEN: And as women get older, deterioration of bones and muscle may cause arches of their feet to become lax and lose support.
Doctors also say avoid the flats and flip-flops. Look for something with a heel to give you balance but something that can still give you arch support without causing fallen arches or flat feet and heel problems.
ZINSZER: Our feet need support. There is a lot of different muscles. There are a lot of tendons and insertions that because of the different types of mechanics of your feet you need to support them.
COHEN: And if women exercise at any age, they need to make sure they have a good fitting shoe that's designed for the sport they're involved in. The wrong footwear can cause shin splints and joint problem that can give you a lifetime of pain.
Elizabeth Cohen, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LONG: We'll be back at the top of the hour with other headlines. Just ahead, you, your doctor, and access to health care on "Town Hall Raw.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's one thing to have access. It's another thing to have access to a provider who really understands your health and understands your communication about your health problems.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELSHI: I'm Ali Velshi at the Iowa state fair in Des Moines, Iowa. And this is "Town Hall Raw," because there has been so much raw discussion this past week at town halls that congressman and the president have been holding in this past week. So we are bringing some of those to you.
Now we have also been on the road all week listening to Americans about their concerns and questions about health care. So many of you have questions about it. And a couple of them -- will there be enough doctors and nurses to provide care if health care reform passes?
And what if I don't want to soon up for it? Well, North Carolina Democrat G.K. Butterfield listened carefully during Tuesday's town hall meeting in Rocky Mount.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My name is Robert Shellenberg (ph). I'm a physician here in Rocky Mount. I've been here for 20 years, and I served this community in that time.
And I see the health issues every day. And we fight with insurance companies, but we also fight with Medicare as well. And what I hear with this bill, I think will make health care less accessible.
If you are talking about more people coming into health care with the same amount of physicians, the people that are going to be seen by a physician extends, they're going to have longer waits in line, and they're going to force everybody into the emergency department, basically, because they can't get to the office.
(APPLAUSE)
But my main question is, how can you support a bill that the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office has said will not save any money over the next ten years?
REP. G.K. BUTTERFIELD, (D) NORTH CAROLINA: The Congressional Budget Office generally agrees with what you said. They are not saying that it won't save any money, but it will not bend the curve as significantly as we had hoped it would bend the curve. But it will be budget neutral to the federal budget.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's if everything goes perfectly correct. And that's a big chance that you are gambling with the American public. And I think that...
(APPLAUSE)
BUTTERFIELD: If we don't bend it, it will continue to escalate.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The cost will continue to escalate about that, a government program like everything else.
(APPLAUSE)
But I think -- I think this program is doomed unless there is tort reform included. There is no way that should be exempt. And for a 1,000 page bill not to have this in the health reform is a crime.
BUTTERFIELD: I have heard it ten times last week. I heard it twice tonight. And I hear you very much.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
BUTTERFIELD: The gentleman made a point about long lines at the doctor's office. And we have addressed that. There will be a tremendous investment in the training of primary care doctors with an emphasis on these doctors practicing in underserved areas -- a tremendous increase in primary care doctors.
Yes? We have a rebuttal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something look that would take about 15 years to come to fruition.
BUTTERFIELD: Perhaps.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Medical school, residency. That's way out, that's way out there. So that ain't going to happen any time soon.
BUTTERFIELD: What about community health centers? That's the other piece of it, to enhance community health centers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I agree. That plays a roll. But you still have to have a staff.
Now, I am proud to serve at the free clinic here. I am proud to serve Medicare, Medicaid right now, anybody that comes to me uninsured. Some physicians in this town will not do that. And I think that the changes that I see, will even push that further away. Fewer physicians will see those Medicaid, Medicare and uninsured people.
BUTTERFIELD: Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: There are almost 50 million people here in the United States who didn't have health insurance. Now, under health care reform, will everybody who doesn't have insurance get it? And should there be a tiered system where you get what you pay for? Not everybody gets the same health care.
Well, that prompted a very heated discussion that I had earlier this week on the CNN express in Kentucky.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well my husband and I are two of the 47 million plus that don't have health care. And I am not talking insurance. Of course we don't have insurance. But I want health care.
My husband has diabetes and he just had a bout with cancer. What insurance company is going to cover us? There aren't any.
If I get sick today, where do you think I am going? I'm going to the emergency room. Who is that costing? That's costing us, the taxpayers.
So if it will cost my bottom line, if they have to tax me more to get health care, tax me. Tax me. Tax me. Tax me. I am willing to pay.
VELSHI: Let's talk about the 46, 47, 50, whatever million you want to use number of people who are not insured in the country. What is your thought on that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would really love to drive a hummer. They're cool cars. I can't afford one, so I don't drive one. I drive what I can afford.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my god. I can't believe you are saying that people don't deserve health care if they can't afford it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where did I say that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's what I hear you saying. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then you are not listening.
VELSHI: You did say you would look to buy a hummer and you can't afford it. So you are saying if you can't afford the hummer, you don't drive it. If you don't afford health care, you shouldn't get it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no. I am saying you have the basic stuff. You get, a catastrophic illness, in a car crash, an accident, something like that happens, of course you get coverage for that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: And again, that was a shorter version of a story that you can find on CNNmoney.com, the longer version of that discussion, a very, very interesting discussion in Kentucky.
Now, 47 million people without health insurance sure sounds like a big number. And is it even accurate? Well, we are sounding off on health care. We're going to find out for you right here on CNN on "Town Hall Raw."
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why on earth would be want to consider a government-run program. Name one government-run program that has ever saved the taxpayer any money and has not ballooned completely out of control?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: Just about three hours until the president's next town hall meeting which he will be holding in Colorado today. It will be his third one this week. CNN will be bringing that to you live.
We are in Des Moines Iowa at the Iowa state fair. It's hard to contain a smile. This is just such a fun place. But health care is a big issue in the state health care reform a big issue in this state of Iowa.
Senator Chuck Grassley held his own town hall meeting earlier this week where he was asked just how many people don't have health insurance in the country. Here is the Senator Grassley in Winterset, Iowa.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Got a couple of comments. Number one, the 47 million figure that you hear bandied about, which I know if from the Bureau of the Census, my understanding is that part of the 47 million figure are 12.4 million illegals as part of that.
And if you take the 18 to 35-year-old age group, there are 25 million in that group that don't really want insurance, especially if they have to pay for it. I remember when I was there -- it has been a long time. But I remember I didn't have insurance either. I just watched what I was doing.
If you take the numbers out of those that don't want it, according to the Heritage Foundation you get down to about 8 million. And that's really the problem.
And couldn't we go down to that number and try to find a solution for that.
Second question, before you get to that, senator. Second one. Second one I have got. Second one I have got. The cost question namely. I don't know what CBO used, but I do know I have heard that the gold plated health care the UAW has, that they use it about twice as much on a usage basis per capita than other people on other health care plans.
If the CBO did not figure in to that trillion dollar figure an increase in usage with the new, this universal health care plan, that would double what the current usage is, aren't their numbers going to be vastly understated, and that's where you will get rationing an seniors are really going to get affected. That's my question.
SEN. CHUCK GRASSLEY, (R) IOWA: OK. There are two questions. One is -- do we really have 47 million problem of being people uninsured when you take out illegal aliens and take out people that have the ability to buy insurance but choose not to buy it. Don't you get down to about 8 billion, or 8 million. And the answer is yes to that one.
And then, the second point, remind me?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The second point is on the cost itself.
GRASSLEY: Yes, the cost of CBO estimating. Yes. And higher priced, higher priced health plans that are private sector health plans. The answer is economists that I have read say exactly what you have said. And it does drive up costs.
But I do believe that the Congressional Budget Office, which is a nonpartisan, professional group that works just for Congress, I think they do take that into consideration.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: All right. How many people are uninsured? How many people would qualify for insurance under the reform plan? Our chief reality correspondent Josh Levs is here to look into that. Hi, josh.
JOSH LEVS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Hi there again, Ali.
I spoke with the Census directly I want to clarify for everyone. Let's first go to this big number that you keep hearing. The figure comes from the Census. The Census does say that 45.7 million people in the country are uninsured for the entire year of 2007.
But what most people don't realize is that in that same report where they give the figure, they also say this, that the number is probably inflated. It's probably not that high. They say health insurance coverage is likely to be underreported.
And they get into some specifics how they collect the information. In short, the Census itself says 45 million is probably too high an estimation of how many people in the country do not have it.
But look at this. Here I'm showing you the opposite side. You have the private group out there called Families USA that says actually the number of uninsured is twice as high. It's much bigger.
And the reason they say is that the Census was looking at who does not have insurance for 2007. This group, Families USA, which is a group that advocates more people having health insurance, they say that if they looked across a two-year period and found at any moment during two years, was there ever a day, a week, any time, when you did not have health insurance it made the number much, much bigger.
So what we end up with, Ali, are these opposing views there about how many people don't have health insurance. But the figure that most go by is the Census, 45 million. But even the Census says that is too high.
VELSHI: Yes, although I have to wonder about that, because when you think that 7 million people have lost their jobs since beginning of the recession, some of them won't have COBRA coverage, and that has kind of added to the number. It's still Tens of millions of people.
How many people can afford health insurance?
LEVS: Yes, a really good point you are making there. The numbers keep changing every year. That's from 2007. And now we have the recession. It could be growing.
How many can afford health insurance is also interesting. Look at this last figure. This is again from the Census, and they point out that within their study, 20 percent of the uninsured have family incomes of $75,000 or more.
Now you might look at that and say, you know what, you are making $75,000. You should be able to afford insurance. But we don't know. You can't know about every family, if they have access, if they have preexisting conditions, if they have massive bills, if they're supporting 15 relatives.
So you can't know affordability. You can know there is that 20 percent chunk that is making $75,000 or more. You would like to think that would be enough to afford insurance.
VELSHI: All right. You like the new titles I keep giving you every tomb I talk to you?
LEVS: After we got off the air, half an hour ago I got 20 calls about it. Now you just -- keep it coming. Are you kidding? I'm calling my agent.
VELSHI: All right, Josh, it's always a pleasure. This is a big issue and it's good that you are breaking it down and clearing it up. Josh Levs.
People in small communities and large communities around the country are getting their voices heard on health care.
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CROWD: We want health care! We want health care!
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VELSHI: CNN iReporters are there capturing the video. We are bringing that to you right here on "Town Hall Raw."
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VELSHI: August is make-or-break month for health care reform in America. CNN is bringing you the town hall meetings, the issues, the iReports. You can go to CNN.com/healthcare for everything you need to know. You can even ask questions.
But so far a lot has happened. Blue dog Democrat from Arkansas Mike Ross, sums it up so far.
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REP. MIKE ROSS, (D) ARKANSAS: I have got the extreme right saying that I caved on health care reform. I've got the extreme left saying that I got too much in the agreement and that I have watered down health care reform.
And so, you know, it's rare that you get both the extreme right and extreme left mad at you all at the same time. And that tells me that maybe we have -- we have found the right balance here.
I believe I'm in the middle. And I believe that's where the majority of the American people are.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: All right. Now, before we go, I want to remind you. President Obama will be hosting his third town hall meeting of this week. He is going to be in Colorado. That's going to be happening in the 6:00 p.m. live hour. And CNN will be bringing that to you from Colorado at that point.
Melissa Long is going to be joining us now. She's taking over for the 4:00 hour.
We're going to be getting to your questions. You have just heard what so many of your country people have had to say about health care reform to their representatives and to the president. Now we'll be talking about your questions with Melissa Long. She's standing by to take us through the next hour.
And I will be joining you for that just as soon as I sort of add a little danger to my health care by getting fried food here at the Iowa state fair. Melissa, are you there?
MELISSA LONG, CNN GUEST ANCHOR: It is amusing that we are talking fried dough and fried foods. You have a sign that says "cigarettes" over your shoulder, and we're talking health care.
VELSHI: Yes.
LONG: All right, Ali. Thanks so much.
VELSHI: It is, but it's good stuff to talk about. I'll see you in a little bit.
LONG: Great programming, thank you, Ali.
